The Dividing Line, September 16, 2008

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Trip to Santa Fe and the Upcoming Southern California Debates

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning beautiful day here in Phoenix, Arizona, I Believe I saw something beautiful this morning and it was that the average temperature has now dropped below Triple digits that's always Something we like to see around here.

I was just over in Santa Fe, New Mexico at the discern o8 conference at the Calvary Chapel, Santa Fe and the pastor there Paul Skaza fava seconds that correctly, but I can only say it correctly once and that was my one shot at it.

Is one of the few Calvary Chapel pastors who is willing to be able to seen in public with me? Actually pastor Paul was not feeling well and hasn't feeling well quite some time need to pray for him so I didn't even get a chance to see him this time around but I had a interesting mix of folks there and everything went very very well.

The conference was very well organized lots of neat topics were discussed and had folks I hadn't seen in a long time saw Mike and Jane Gendron there and We had Ron Rhodes there and Bill McKeever was there and Bill Hansberger was there and Then I got finally to meet Rob Bowman Who was there and he wasn't feeling all that well either.

We're all getting old this is. It's we're all commenting on the fact that we're all getting old as well and so I spoke on Islam on the Marian dogmas and my main presentation was on the reliability of the New Testament Manuscripts.

I have a new presentation on that That I made in keynote and it really turned out I'm just I'm just having a grand old time with with that new Mac and especially keynote I've got. I hope I have time to finish all the presentations before this weekend.

But I have some some templates for that stuff. That is just gonna be awesome.

Oh, you're the only one around here do who doesn't drink chamomile tea anymore. You know the calming oh.

Yes, yes. Yes. Yes, and I don't have any I'll have a need for any bath soaps either calming bath soaps. That's true. And if you haven't seen the Mac commercials on that particular subject, then you're not really following the the joke there, but quite true, I don't I.

The blue screen of death is something that is now a past part of my experience in Computing and I'm very happy about that. Now. What's coming up this weekend before we get back into the Soulsperture debate.

What's coming up this weekend? Yeah, three days. In fact, I'm having to try to work on my travel plans to fit Friday in now. Starting Friday evening. This is not on the website yet. I'm gonna get it up After the program Friday evening seven o 'clock one six seven.

Oh five Bellflower Boulevard, Bellflower, California Nine zero seven zero six same place as the debates on Saturday is the easiest way to remember this. We will be having a presentation Where the Christian debaters who are going to be debating over the course of weekend are going to be making positive Presentations and then my understanding is the Muslim there's are going to be asking questions of us.

And the public is invited to attend that I am going to be giving a 20 to 25 minute presentation on original sin and atonement and Then taking questions on that and that'll be on Friday night one six seven zero five Bellflower Boulevard in Bellflower, California and So I want you to be aware of that.

Then the rest information is on.

The.

Website I'm looking at. The blog entry for you should probably repost this today. I think that's what I'll probably do is copy it and repost it. This is number 2843 from. Why isn't there a date on it?

Oh, it must be up top now. Yes, September 3rd of this year is where the great debate series is linked. And so on September 20th, that'll be on Saturday same location at 10 a .m. Does anyone think that early in the morning on a Saturday this?

Interesting group of people where you get out in Southern, California for a Christian Muslim debate at 10 a .m On a Saturday morning, but will I be awake at 10 a .m. On a Saturday morning is the question?

I better be because I'm going to be Debating sama Abdullah on was Jesus crucified or substituted. Some of you may go well, didn't you debate Shabir Ali on that? I debate Shabir Ali on the crucifixion of Christ.

Remember Shabir Ali does not take The normative Muslim position. He believes that Jesus was crucified, but he didn't die sort of the swoon theory type perspective and so We want to find someone who would defend what most Muslims believe and that is that a substitute was crucified in the place of Christ and Osama Abdullah is going to be doing that 10 a .m. On Saturday.

Then at 2 p .m. David Wood is going to be debating Farhan Qureshi on can we trust the Quran and Then the triple header in the evening at 6 p .m. So I'm gonna have a few hours to go find a place and curl up and try to Get caught back up and I've never done two debates in one day.

David does it all time and yeah, but he's young. He hasn't hit 40 yet. Once he does he'll fall apart. But anyway Then I'll be debating Osama Abdullah again at 6 o 'clock on can we trust the New Testament?

So was Jesus Christ crucified or substituted 10 a .m. Can we trust the Quran 2 o 'clock David Wood versus Farhan Qureshi? And then 6 o 'clock. Can we trust the New Testament then? I'm not sure How this is working yet, but either that night or more likely the next morning we are driving down to the San Diego area and Specifically Escondido and That means nice and close to Westminster Theological Seminary there so I expect all the Folks that can try to come out come out because we're not doing it during church time.

Anyways, thankfully at least in the morning I will be debating Farhan Qureshi on did Jesus claim to be God at 2 30 p .m. On the 21st I am NOT going to be able to stay. For David Woods debate is Muhammad a true prophet at 6?

Because I have a flight back and as it is and I want to let everybody know this ahead of time. As it is basically as soon as that is over at 5 p .m I'm gonna have to have everything packed up and right out the door to make it to my flight, so I Hope that no one will be upset with me about that or feel that I'm a terrible horrible nasty man or anything like that.

I just that's just the way that things worked out. And so I'm not gonna be able to hang around and I enjoy that. But I'm not gonna be able to do that this time around. So my debate did you claim to be God?

This is at 2 4 4 9 South Center City Parkway Escondido my Understanding from someone in channel. Is it one of those two locations? I think the second one is the Calvary Chapel in Escondido. I'm not sure Micah put links to the maps I think Google Maps on this particular.

On the graphics on this if you click on that you can get directions to be there. So even if you cannot be with us this weekend be praying for us. Obviously, these will be videotaped and we'll be making them available.

And of course these continue to be very important topics, and I'm very much looking forward to this weekend. I just Hope I have enough time between now and then to get those presentations put together because I not only have the debate presentations which have to be timed obviously appropriately.

But I also have then the presentation on original sin and atonement put to put together as well. So gonna be a busy busy week for those of you who like to send me emails again. It's probably where I get this terrible reputation of being a mean terrible nasty man.

But those of you who send me emails wanting me to be your private Bible answer man to do translational work for you. To look up everything in commentaries for you, etc. Etc. Especially this week. You're probably gonna get ignored.

Because there's you know I know that the big boys might have a staff to help them and to Put material together and stuff like that. I don't and so I'm On my own with this stuff including the production of the presentations.

I do it all myself so I'm gonna be rather busy this week and I reserve next week for a time mental breakdown. Can't do that because Next week is after that is the Ligonier conference here here in Phoenix.

So we're gonna be busy toward the end of the week with that. Anyhow, and then I'm preaching on Sunday. So It's gonna be a busy busy Busy busy time. Yeah, we got some main channel going. Hey, I got a quick question.

You busy right now. Yeah. That's exactly how it goes. People coming to channel all the time. Hey, could you translate this for me? And and then summarize all of scholarship on this and You know, and I just I sit there going, you know, would you ask ask other people that you know?

Would you you know if you happen to get past the security into John MacArthur's office you plop down say so.

John.

Could you stop everything you're doing and I've got some Hebrew questions for you, you know. But anyhow, it's It's gonna be fun this this weekend. So Keep us in prayer for that. We very much look forward to it.

I think the presentations that I did this weekend are online At Calvary Chapel Santa Fe the audio but the problem is I was using PowerPoint for everything so Might not have quite the same Level of I now they're videotaping.

So maybe maybe they're gonna do something with that I don't know. I didn't get the details on that but great folks over there. Beautiful beautiful weather in Santa Fe. Wow, that was nice, but some odd people.

Santa Fe is filled with really artsy folks. It's it's it's it's an odd odd mixture. Yes, Santa Fe's.

New Mexico's version of our Sedona. Oh, I know that. Oh, I know that.

Yeah that I was looking for the people standing out, you know on a hilltop going home. You know looking for the converging rocks on top day something something like that. Yeah, there's a lot of Mysticism and stuff like that around there, but the weather was really really nice.

I suppose that's why you know, I I really something tells me that most American New Agers would not like turn Anchorage into a Vortex, you know because they don't want to be in the cold. They want to go to nice places.

Sedona, Santa Fe. You know, those are nice places to live and hang out and wait for UFOs and stuff like that. Well, anyway, let's let's get on with important stuff here. Not that the stuff coming this weekend isn't important, but UFOs in Santa Fe don't really excite me that much.

Islam, the Hadith, and the Diversity of Muslim Apologetics

We are going back to our discussion Of a debate took place in 1993. Well, wait a minute. You know, I guess I didn't even see that since I was looking at other stuff so we actually have a caller online so let's go ahead and Take our caller first and then we will move on with the debate.

So let's talk with David. Hi David.

How you doing doing? Good. How are you doing? All right. My question is with regards to Islam and It's gonna take me a little bit to get out. Hopefully you can flush something out of there. But it has to do and it's for the tradition and I noticed and I've even seen other Ahmed.

He kind of takes you to be Muslims only. Islam or not. Mainline.

Well.

Obviously Islam is a multi-faceted Religion and Pretty much when you speak with any Muslim just like it's you know, it's like talking with a Roman Catholic their view of Catholicism They think is the most accurate or mainstream or whatever else might be even if they're completely out to lunch.

And even amongst the majority groups like the Sunnis there are you know, various viewpoints and perspectives clearly Western Islam Experiences a much wider Birth as far as ability to speculate on things ability to be somewhat critical of certain Hadith traditions or elements of that tradition to develop their own unique takes on things and because In Saudi Arabia or something like that.

There's there's a rather obvious reason why you don't get to do that. Definitely. And I've often said that most Islamic apologists in the West Would probably find themselves in mortal danger if they were to say the things they say in a place like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or places like that and That does say something to me that that certainly does I think indicate?

Something to me, but I do try to deal with the apologist where he is if he's gonna, you know, just start dismissing Sahih al-bukhari or something like that, then I'm gonna point out that this person is Very much out of line with with the historical perspectives of Islam.

And you know the the Muslims in the audience may or may not get that depending on you know How well read they are and certainly the Christians in the audience haven't a clue who's Sahih al-bukhari. Oh, right, right Explain it, you know, but you know, certainly there is a Freedom that they tend to.

Express.

In picking and choosing from especially the sources of tradition because the source of tradition allow for all of that I mean there's there's no one perspective being presented there and and so I know that this weekend I was listening again this morning to Farhan Qureshi in his debate with Nabil Qureshi and An excellent debate by the way Nabil did a tremendous job I was going to email him this morning and and Compliment him yet again on the passion with which he presented his case for the deity of Christ, but as always it came round to accusations of the corruption of the text in the New Testament and You know, he took the perspective that well, you know as soon as Muhammad would would dictate the Quran.

There's all these people sitting there and they're memorizing it and they're writing it down on stuff. And and it was all in written form long before Muhammad died and all the rest of stuff. Well, if he makes that allegation This this coming Sunday in our in our debate.

I'm going to I'm telling him this now ahead of time. If he wants to be listening, that's great. I'm going to take him right back to Sahih al-bukhari. I'm gonna say, okay. That's the case then how in the world after the battle of your mama.

And many of the Qurta have died why would the death of the Memorizers of the Quran cause someone to feel that a great part Kathir min a great part of the Quran Would be lost if further of the Qura were to die if it's already in written form right, then why please explain this to me and I've never gotten anybody to explain it to me except for the Muslims who admit that no.

It wasn't in written form. It had been memorized and that's why in the same section of Sahih al-bukhari six five one nine five ten you will have the fact that one particular ayah Even after the original compilation was missed and had it was found with one person and Which of course raised in my mind all sorts of questions like well If only one person had that ayah and all these other Qura had already been killed.

How do you know there weren't a bunch of other ayahs that were only with one of them and since they got killed you don't Have it, you know, I mean all these things, you know need to be looked at and I'm I'm not using some Christian source here I'm using their own and so he might go Sahih al-bukhari who cares?

Well, you know once you start right, I mean that's selective I would I would assert that that Islamic interpretation of the Quran from the beginning has been utterly Dependent upon the hadith itself. You can't make right.

That's my point.

Yeah, even the Quran itself makes allusions to and to we've given rightly guided mullahs. Yeah, and and and Khalif and so you're rejecting that, you know. You the other problem is for Sunnis, which is the vast majority of Muslim.

You don't get a Sunnah from the Quran. I mean if you're gonna start challenging traditions outright like Buhari and all of Hadith there are all of the biographies. You're gonna run into that problem of well, then what is Islam?

You don't get Islam just from the Quran and and I would say, you know the conversation we're having now. We know that and there's even other Muslims that know that. Her head and one of the things that I've heard you say that I agree with is The debate is both and at least with the Tibet now is this on is this is the one off your site the one that?

Was not too long ago a couple months ago. Yeah, I linked to it. But yeah, you linked to that you're right and it was showing that and it it people didn't get that. In fact, that's the version of Islam.

Westerners want to hear right? They want to hear. Well, we reject those Hadith because they were you know Colloquial and of that time and they interjected their own man tradition. This wasn't from God.

I've seen that elsewhere on the internet again. I think you're right. I've come to the same conclusion. You're not going to get away with that in Damascus or Riyadh. That's that you would hear but I would just like to see someone that just calls it for what it is and just points it Out that this is not Islam.

I mean if you were gonna debate I would that either you or the moderator or a hey if a Muslim were debate a Mormon I would hope somewhere in there someone to say well This isn't or whatever you want to call it but when Shabir Ali gets up there and he debates people I see him just as much of a heretic this law members that the Quran which a.

Actually an Islamic heresy. Well, not now Shabir. Shabir is not Quran only. I.

Don't know if he would if he would made it that way, but his position is almost tantamount. I've heard him. I've heard Shabir.

Lecture on Hadith and Now I know a Quran only the first gentleman that I debated the first Muslim I ever debated Hams Abdul Malik has become Quran only and He considers the Shahada an example of Shirk because it associates Muhammad with Allah.

Oh, wow. Speaking to him in Norfolk because he attended the debates that we did back there and I debated another Ahmed. Well, I debated. I'm not sure what another Ahmed was doing. But anyway Look at the video.

I mean as that was one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen an adult do in in in public, but anyway, he was there and It was very interesting. What was really interesting me was even though the Muslim debaters knew he was Quran only and hence should be considered a heretic They knew that he had just enough knowledge of the original languages.

They were constantly running to him to try to defend themselves against me. So it's like we'll run to the heretic.

The Islamic heretic even though he's Quran only who cares like the Catholics. The venue for the JW.

But so I do know some of them. Shabir would say no no, no, no, no, I'm not. We just simply have to apply, you know, I mean he's he's doing his PhD in Quranic studies, right?

I mean, but he's challenging Bahari though. He's not just challenging like some side thing. I mean right granted he would not come out himself and say hey, I'm an Islamic heretic. No, I you know, I'm a crime only but it's basically a default.

I.

Would consider it a default position. Yeah. Yeah, I think over the course of his PhD studies. He's moved away from where he was back say 10 years ago because I heard him doing the Quran code stuff you know where you count up the number of eyes and you know, all the rest that stuff and I just I Don't know that he would do that anymore to be perfect honest with you because you know Canadian Quranic studies are probably not quite as conservative as in Riyadh or Egypt doesn't like that, right?

You know, so I don't know. I I don't think he would call himself Quran only but yeah, I mean certainly I've said many times he would he would stick out like a sore thumb over in the Middle East amongst a a Muslim-majority and if your message changes in that context, what does that say?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I see that is kind of winning point. I mean even I mean I know you're aware of the debate about the Quran is that eternal or is it not right. And about The side that said yeah, it's eternal basically one.

So now you can get people that want to harken back to these older traditions. But they've been four major schools away. It's kind of I mean that would be heretical too. And I just I do see a lot of leeway that they take what they would not do in their normal discourse.

With themselves, there's no two ways about that and that works both directions. I mean, let's face it when when Christianity responds to Islam there tends to be a willingness to somewhat Drop certain distinctives as well.

And I think that that probably goes both directions. I mean, I try to be as consistent as I possibly can be but you all you everybody feels the pressure Along those lines and Anyone who says they don't is just lying to you.

So I would just hope that people would someone I mean it like I think that you would but that others would. Point this out to people that you know when they take those kind of stances, but those are not normative.

They're not historic and that they are I guess you could say if the person is not a heretic themselves. It's it definitely Heterodoxy. It's ad-hoc, it's so clearly ad-hoc that they're ditching it just because it's not attractive and it makes them look bad and.

Think most people with discernment would realize that most of the religions that come into the United States from from the east Are willing to somewhat edit themselves to me? Oh, yeah. Buddhism all of them do the same thing and So Islam seems to to be doing the same type of thing.

All you gotta do is direct some of these folks folks to memory TV and say hey sit down and watch for a while and listen to The folks that are in the middle of the very heart of Islam. Oh, yeah.

What they'll say about you they would never ever say. Anywhere else? Yeah, I know.

All righty. Thanks. Thanks. Dr. White. I got blessed. Bye.

Yeah, very very much so I was sort of watching rich in there as he was sort of, you know. Starting to count the number of dimples on the ceiling. Like that like that's one of them Muslim calls. All right, let's get let's shift gears here and get into the solo scriptura debate Patrick Madrid 1993.

Sola Scriptura, Tradition, and the Meaning of Apostolic Teaching

Once again, just briefly doing this because. Well, because Patrick keeps bringing these things up. We played a few weeks ago comments that he himself made in regards to the debate and it's just always good to remind folks of the reality of history while we still can and decide for ourselves Exactly how fair people are being in their presentations.

So we continue with the souls perturb a debate from 1993 myself versus Patrick Madrid the.

They must contain some different data is being passed on. Rather than what's in Scripture, there's the problem. I Challenged mr. Madrid to show us any bit of evidence. That any time that the term tradition is used in Scripture where the Christian Church is passing it on.

But it means that what is in that tradition? differs from what's in the New Testament that now.

Patrick's gonna respond me. Oh, no. Because I believe in material sufficiency so what's in the tradition is identical with what's in Scripture. Well, then why do you need the tradition in the in the sense?

That's saying that we Rejecting any type of extra biblical tradition as being normative or authoritative in the sense of being necessary to be joined to Scripture. We are somehow avoiding the scriptural command or we are somehow missing something.

Then he's good flop back to the well, actually the tradition is the how it's the how to interpret Scripture. Well, wait a minute even go back to the Thessalonians patches passage second. That's only is 215.

How does that work. Paul has even finished writing his letters yet? How can the tradition that he delivers the Thessalonians be some kind of tradition about how to interpret? What doesn't hasn't yet been written?

Even when you go to the early Church Fathers who use the term tradition go to Irenaeus look at what his tradition was. His Tradition is sub Biblical what I mean by that is his tradition is a summary of the primary Biblical teachings the fact there's one true God who is the creator of all things who sent his son Jesus Christ.

It's a basic framework that denies that the Gnostics Can use the Christian scriptures because the Gnostics don't have are a Christian worldview. They've already rejected the fundamental element that defines the Christian faith.

Which is monotheism and that God is the creator of all things the Gnostics said no God isn't the creator of all things. There's this demiurge the creator of all things. God is all spirit. They're dualists etc, etc.

And then they turn the scriptures upside down based upon that similar to when Mormons try to deal with scriptures. If you don't start with the basics. That is that there's one true. God is the creator of all things you're going to just completely melt down in.

Attempting to deal with the text of the Bible. You're just not gonna be able to do meaningful exegesis as the Gnostics couldn't either so that was what Irenaeus? Was saying his tradition was so he's gonna say oh no no no.

I see you're confusing material and formal tradition and Formal sufficiency and la la la la, but that's why he can't be going to second Thessalonians 2 to 15. That's why he can't be using those texts so he wants to have his cake and eat it too and when challenged on the one to drop back to the other and then You know throw lob a few smoke bombs to try to Confuse people as to what he's doing in that particular context, so we'll continue on with the.

Are we gonna be taking a no we're not gonna be taking a break? Oh? Okay, so so you just just this is executive decision. Oh, okay, executive decision from the other room. I just sort of looking around for the note on my screen here Rich is just giving me a little dirty look from it.

I wish I could remote control. I wish this was on remote control so I could everyone so I'll just pan it around. Yeah, shoot through the window and catch you sitting there. You know staring off in the space.

Oh sure it was and so soon who is Sahil Bakari anyways.

You.

Know that's. That's why I look up there to keep an eye so that you know make sure nobody's stealing trying to steal my car.

Or my motorcycle for that matter. So that's yeah, I've got it right here. I'm I've got the security cameras that what motorcycle. That's right. No, it's right there. Don't worry. I've this program would be cut very short very quickly.

If someone was walking off with my motorcycle so anyhow, okay, so we're not taking a break. So we're gonna continue on with the commentary.

Assumption that must be proven by the Roman Catholic for these citations these passages to be relevant at all. Now did Paul teach something different in the presence of many witnesses when he taught in his epistle to the Romans of the Galatians.

It's interesting that you're telling an address this very passage in. Mr.. Madrid said he could bury me and held up a notebook. Well, I'm not gonna get into stuff like that sort of silly. We can debate that if we want.

But Tertullian addresses very passage when refuting those false teachers of his day who claimed that the Apostles had two different teachings. Sound familiar. One which was open and known by all and a second secret doctrine known only to a few.

He says but here is we have said the same now before I read the Tertullian quote there isn't that a wonderful description of the the Roman Catholic concept of tradition at least the time of the Council of Trent.

And as continues to be held by more traditional and conservative Roman Catholics. That you have you have the one public teaching everybody knows about that as it was found in Scripture. But then you have this this other teaching and that's why for years now We've been challenging Roman Catholic apologists give us a catalog of tradition.

You know you you say the church has this tradition. And she's drawn from this tradition to interpret these doctrines and dogmas. Why don't you tell us? What what is the rest? What's what's the rest of this unwritten tradition this oral tradition?

You keep referring us to can you tell us what's in there? And the answer is they can't not until the church comes along and dogmatizes something and so if that traditions always been there Then that would mean the things that have been defined now.

We're part of this oral tradition which since Patrick Madrid quoted these texts he must believe were relevant to that oral tradition. That's why I can say all right show me where the Paul taught the Thessalonians these things.

Where do you teach you about papal infallibility where do you teach you about the bodily assumption of Mary? Where are you teaching about the Immaculate Conception where do you teach you about Thesaurus Maritorum?

Where do you teach you about these things and? They can't answer those questions. Which is why they don't want to have to try to even answer those questions. I was interesting when I was in New Mexico this weekend I had a Catholic apologist attend my presentation on the Marian dogmas fell by name of Mike and Mike only attended half my presentation on the Marian dogmas and specifically on The whether the Roman Catholic Church is going to define the fifth Marian dogma.

The movement spearhead by dr. Mark Miravalle out of the Franciscan University of Steubenville. As to whether Mary is coret em tricks comedic tricks and advocate with the people of God the whole presentation was on.

Here are the first dogmas. This is where they came from here's this dogma it comes from the same same sources and Here's the situation facing Roman Catholic Church today. I even included a video of Miravalle explaining This concept and and it sort of helped because it was making the same points I had made for a long long time, and so I included that.

So he's first one with his hand up afterwards, and he says well the church hasn't defined This is a dogma, and I said yes my whole presentation was about. And then when we finally started going back and forth a little bit he very openly and plainly admitted Oh the Marian dogmas about the bodily assumption immaculate conception that comes long after the Apostles.

So you admit this is not something the Apostles taught. Oh, yeah, no it this this comes from the church this comes Clearly from the church. It's not something the Apostles themselves taught. It's not apostolic in nature now.

I had just played a clip during thing of.

Of.

Jerry and I Jerry magics and I going back and forth and Jerry's saying you're cutting yourself off because You your Bible came from what these people said and these people taught certain things about Mary.

And so if you say they're unreliable then you can't even trust they say about your Bible I say they didn't teach these things about Mary. Jerry. I said Athanasius gave me the exact same New Testament that I have today.

Show me where he taught the bodily assumption of Mary. Show me how about the councils Hippo and Carthage. Well James I don't need to show you where every single church father said these things which I said Jerry I'll take one and that's when the whole audience started clapping because they all they were all seeing the same thing.

I've been challenging him at every cross-examination period. Show me an early show me some early source. You keep saying that this comes nearly church show me the sources show. You know and he just couldn't do it and they can't because this was not a part of the faith of the early church.

That's just all there is to it and so. So who do you who do you believe you know Jerry was still an orthodox Roman Catholic back then? You know the Catholic apologists can't figure out what this issue is because Rome hasn't figured out what this issue is.

There is no one single dogmatic definition even of what tradition is for that matter sure. It's talked about all the time, but in very nebulous forms and even once it's discussed what then can happen.

Well once you put something in writing people interpret it and every word of Vatican 2 has been interpreted in at least three different ways and. So you know whenever again so whenever you know the Roman Catholic comes on well.

You just you know the Bible's just not safe because people can misinterpret it. Well any written document is subject to Misinterpretation and that's why we have the Pope right and exactly how does the Pope help you with this?

Well the Pope can help us to interpret these things really well once the Pope interprets something. How do you know about it? Do you go to Rome and listen to him and? Even if you do once he says it is the guy standing next to you gonna interpret the same way.

It's it's a it's a chimera. It's a shadow. It's it's a promise that has no meaningful fulfillment and besides that even if you can get the Pope to sit down say no. This is it once he's gone the next guy comes along is he gonna say the same thing.

That's why I point out the differences between things like the Council of Constance. And it's clear statement the Jews schismatics and heretics will not Enter into the kingdom of God unless they become a part of the church and No one can seriously doubt in the context of the Council of Constance what they meant by that but there are people today willing to take modern liberal post-modernism and Ship it back to the Council of Constance by Many centuries past where it would be at all relevant or understandable and say oh well.