Bow Tie Dialogue with 3 IFB Pastors

Sometimes I feel the waves with some kind of thing that seeks to punish. And I hit the YouTube link. Don't say hit, that sounds violent. And I feel my troubles on.

Opening and Introductions

Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience. And welcome everyone to another edition of Bowtie Dialogues here at the Your Calvinist Podcast. My name is Keith Foskey, and as always, I am Your Calvinist.

And I am thankful to have the opportunity tonight to welcome three new friends from the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church. We have Pastor Tommy. We have Pastor Joe Major. That's Pastor Tommy McMurtry.

Pastor Joe Major and Pastor Obi. These are three men who have graciously been willing to come on the show with me tonight and to tell me more about what and why they believe and teach the things that they do.

So I want to start out by going around and simply have each man introduce himself. Tell me where you are a pastor, how long you've been a pastor, and just a little bit about yourself, your family, things like that.

Just introduce yourself to our audience. We'll start with you, Brother Tommy, since you were the one who helped me set everything up.

Yes. So first off, thanks for having me on the show. I love that intro. That was epic. I'm very impressed. But yes, I'm Tommy McMurtry. I'm a pastor of the Liberty Baptist Church in Rock Falls. I've been pastoring here for 12 years.

I started the church 12 years ago. I have a wife, Cassandra, and eight children, ranging from ages 22 to 3. But yes, I've been an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist my whole life. I was born in an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher's home.

So that's pretty much all I know. I'm excited to be here tonight.

Amen.

I don't meet too many men who beat me as far as children. I have six. So you have eight. So you're currently in the lead. So that's awesome. And praise God that God has seen fit to give you that many children.

That's a blessing from the Lord. All right, Pastor Joe, we'll go to you next.

Yes, sir. Thank you for having me here. My name is Joe Major. I'm the pastor of Faith Baptist Church in Violet, Louisiana, which is right outside of New Orleans for those that don't know where Violet's at.

And so I've been pastoring here for about 10 years now. And before that, I was an assistant pastor for a few years at a church on the other side of New Orleans. And me and my wife have been married for 15 years now, and we have six kids.

All right. So we're in a tie. So, Pastor Joe, you said 16 years as well is how long you've been together or how long you've been married?

15. 15 years.

15.

Well, praise the Lord for that. Well, Pastor Obi, tell us a little bit about you and your family.

All right.

Thanks for having me. I'm Pastor Obina Ofuebu. You can just call me Pastor Obi. I'm the pastor of Love Assembly Baptist Church at Montgomeryville, Pennsylvania. I've been pastoring there since 2019 when we became IFB.

But I've been a pastor longer than that, a little bit after I was saved, and even a pastor of a Pentecostal church before I was saved. So I'm married to my wife, Chinelo, and we have five kids. We've been married for 15 years also.

Salvation Testimonies and the Gospel

Well, that's wonderful, brother. And I want to dig into that a little bit because the first question I want to ask you guys is, were you saved in the denomination that you're now in? Pastor Tommy sort of already answered that question because he told us he was born in an independent fundamentalist Baptist home.

But you're saying that you were once a Pentecostal preacher?

Yes, I was.

I want to hear a little bit about that, and then we'll go back to you, Pastor Joe, in just a minute and hear a little bit more of your story. But Pastor Obi, so what convinced you to become independent Baptist if you were already coming from a Pentecostal background?

That seems like a pretty good jump.

After I got saved, my eyes were opened. I understood the Bible, and the closest denomination that follows the Bible is the IFB, the Independent Fundamental Baptist. So it was a no-brainer. I mean, that's a simple answer.

Okay.

Well, how long ago did you get saved? You said you were already a pastor, and you got saved as a pastor?

I grew up as a Pentecostal. I grew up going to Pentecostal churches. I mean, when I was a little child, we were Catholics. Then my parents converted to Pentecostal. I don't really remember the Catholics so much, although I remember the Catholicism and everything.

We did all of that. Then growing up, we're Pentecostalist. Both my parents were Pentecostal pastors. Yeah, my mom, too, was a pastor. My father passed away. I took over the church 2014, I believe. I was 30 years old.

And when I was 32 years old, I got saved while I was a pastor of the Pentecostal church. So I understood the gospel. I believed it. And the main Bible verse was 1 Corinthians 1 .18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.

But unto us that are saved, it is the power of God. And this was when I understood that the Bible, I was using the wrong Bible because I thought all Bibles were the same. And, you know, it's just some translations here and there.

So I believe that we're being saved. And salvation was a process, was a sanctification process. But when I understood that KJV is the only right or the correct translation in English, the only right Bible in English, then I saw my error.

And I always knew that, I mean, you can't repent from your sins. You can't turn completely from your sins. We're all sinners. Repent means to, you know, stop doing something and start and do something else.

So I always knew that. But I also thought that salvation was a process. And I always looked at my Bible. I was using the New King James at the time. And it says you are being saved. And so when I saw that verse and understood the Bible was, or KJV was right, I went straight to that verse.

And that is the verse that, you know, turned the light switch on. That I am saved already. Like once you believe you are saved.

Done.

Full stop.

And that's how I believe the gospel. As a pastor. And it took about three years, because that was 2016. Took about three years until I became IFB. So the church was a Pentecostal church. I started preaching the right gospel.

I was kicked out of the franchise, basically. I was kicked out from preaching. Then I decided to leave because I was autonomous with the church. So I decided to leave the franchise. So we were nondenum for a while as I was trying to change doctrines and change the ways in the church.

People laughed. People insulted me. People called me different names. The church dwindled down to just a handful of us. And we moved locations two times because we couldn't afford the places. We're shrinking, basically.

Until we're like, as I said, a handful of us. And we moved to like 800 square foot. At that point, I was like, why am I nondenum? I know what I believe. And I don't want to just be nondenum. And nobody knows what we believe.

So I want to represent what I believe. And that was the IFB, Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. So that's what I call the church. And people, everyone there followed me. And they accepted that I explained why we were, what we're going to talk about, I guess.

And that's how we're IFB. And that was 2019, April. So it's going to be five years this year.

Okay.

Well, that's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that with us. Pastor Joe, is your situation where you went to IFB from something else? Or are you like Tommy, where this is your born and bred?

I'm like Tommy. I was born and bred Independent Fundamental Baptist. My parents were graduates of Hiles Anderson College. And so that's where my parents met, got married. And then, of course, I came along later and grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist.

And I got saved at a pretty young age when I was five years old. I understood the gospel. Of course, I heard it all the time. You know, one thing Independent Baptist are known for, especially back in that day and time, was going out door-knocking, soul-winning.

And so going out with my dad, going out soul-winning, I'd hear the gospel multiple times a week when we're out there. And my dad's preaching the gospel to people. And then, of course, through Sunday school and through church and through all of that, of course, by the time you're five years old, you have a heavy dose of the gospel.

And so I understood it at five years old that Jesus Christ was my Savior, that He died for me, that He rose again, and that He was God manifest in the flesh. And at five years old, I chose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so I got saved at a young age and grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist, and I've remained Independent Fundamental Baptist.

All right. Brother Tommy, you know, Brother Joe has said, and I don't know what you call me, brother, pastor, whatever. In our church, a lot of times we just call each other brother, so I hope that's okay, just sort of going around.

Brother Tommy, as he's saying the gospel, he heard the gospel when he was five, one of the things I like to do on this show, because I never know who's watching, and we never know if there's an unbeliever who's going to tune in, even by accident, and might hear something.

Can you take the next minute? I have a video that does this, but I'd rather hear it from one of you guys. And, Tommy, if you're okay doing it, would you just take a minute and share what the gospel is, so that if somebody's listening and they've never heard it, that they can hear what the gospel is and know what that means?

Yeah, so the short version is man is sinful. Man is completely unable to do anything to atone for their sins. They are completely dependent on the mercy of God. And even though we are sinful, God loves us.

God did not want us to go to hell. He sent Jesus, who paid our sins in full on the cross. And salvation is as simple as believing the gospel and accepting a free gift. If you add your works to the gospel, it's contaminated.

God will not accept that offering. He'll only accept the offering of Jesus Christ. And so the way we believe on Christ is we recognize our sinfulness, our dependence on Jesus Christ, and we call on Him for salvation, and He will give it to us every single time because His blood can cleanse us from all sin, and it pays in full anything that we've ever done.

And once a person has received that eternal gift, it is just that. It's eternal. It's something we didn't do any good works to keep it, and there's no works that we can do to lose it. And so when a person gets saved, they quit trusting in themselves, and they commit their souls unto Christ because we know we can't trust ourselves.

We will mess up. It's not reformation. It's receiving a free gift.

Amen.

And how old were you, Tommy, when you got saved? You may have said earlier, but I just didn't quite remember. I know Pastor Joe said five, and Pastor Obi said it was while he was a pastor. But how old were you when you received the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior?

Yeah, I was five years old when I got saved, and same thing. I grew up around it, hearing it. I remember specifically hearing some things about salvation and getting saved. And I remember being in King's Kids and learning different verses and hearing them talk about salvation.

And I remember asking my parents. I went to bed that night and called for mom and dad, and I'm like, hey, am I saved? Am I going to heaven? And they went through and explained everything to me. And I remember praying right there and believing the gospel and been saved ever since.

Baptism, Child Professions, and the Lord’s Supper

You know, this leads to something that isn't one of the questions that I wrote down, but it might be just something worth exploring just for a minute, and that's the question of when a smaller child—because we're all Baptists, even though we have some differences theologically.

None of us would baptize an infant, right? But is there an age that would be too young that you would say you wouldn't do a baptism? And I'll let each of you give an answer. And again, this isn't a test.

You're not going to be graded. I'm just curious because I know like in our church, when a young person, especially a person raised in church, comes and they say, I want to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, certainly I pray with them.

I sit down. I talk with them, but I don't automatically baptize them. Usually I'll wait a little while. I'll counsel them. I'll make sure they do understand the gospel and things like that. And I was curious, in your denomination, how that would be.

Would you all immediately baptize a child, sort of the Ethiopian eunuch thing? Here's water. What preventeth me from being baptized? Would you do that, or would it be something that you counsel a person through, or is it dependent on the person?

For me, it depends. The youngest any of my kids—six out of my eight have made professions, and I think the youngest any of them was five. Typically, it's one of those things. We've always waited for them to come to us and ask us about it.

When they start asking questions, to me, that's an important thing. I do remember one time when Jason, my second son, was real little. Tommy had just gotten saved, and so he now knew he wasn't going to go to hell.

I remember he told Jason, his younger brother, you need to get saved so you don't go to hell. Jason's like, I don't want to go to hell.

But it was one of those things. He clearly wasn't ready.

But Tommy was worried about him. He was worried about his little brother. All of our kids did. They all approached us, thankfully, at young ages. And then, typically with the baptism, too, I've always wanted it to be their choice, too.

We've always explained baptism to them the same way. If they see it at church, and even after they get saved, we might tell them about it. It's one of those things. If they don't seem like they understand it, or if they don't want to do it, it's like you want it to be their choice, and you want them to understand it.

We've just never rushed those things with the kids. But it's always just organically happened. I think if you're around that all the time, it's going to be very hard for it not to.

Sure.

Brother Joe, the situation as a pastor and as a father.

Yeah, I agree with Pastor McMurtry with everything he just said there. With our kids, the same thing. We wait for them to come to us. And you do want to make sure that it is their decision. You cannot save them yourself as their parent.

It's important that it be their decision and that they have understanding. Whether it's my child or whether it's somebody else's child, I want to make sure that that child understands the gospel, that they understand what they are choosing to believe, and that it is a choice that they are making for themselves.

I think understanding is key. I wouldn't necessarily put an age on it. I think five is probably about as young as you're going to go before a child has understanding. And so it's more about do they have the proper understanding and maturity to be able to make that decision for themselves.

Thank you, brother. Pastor Obey, being in the IFB now for five years with your children, were they baptized before you went into the IFB? And again, just with your situation, it might be a little different.

They weren't baptized, so they're all baptized. The ones that are saved are baptized. I mean, the ones that have understanding to be saved will be baptized in the IFB. For me as a father, I want to confirm that my children really believe and understand.

They're not just repeating. So my daughter got saved, like my elder, she got saved at six. She got baptized, I think, at nine. I kept pushing it, but she was asking for it. My son is baptized. My third now is seven years old.

She'll be eight in April, and she's been asking for it to be baptized because I've been doing baptisms, and she wants to do a baptism, and I'm like, no. I just push it to like seven, eight, or nine, although they get saved early on.

I just want to be sure. I don't want to do the baptism twice because there's no rush to it. Now, as a pastor, I follow what the father of the child says. I'll talk to the father, make sure the child is saved, and if the father says the child is saved, then I'll baptize the child.

Now in the baptism, I ask, do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, just as the Ethiopian eunuch? And if the child says yes, I'll baptize the child because the father gave the direction to do so. So as a father, I would wait and push it and make sure and keep checking my child and ask them questions as they get older.

And if they answer all the questions correctly, then I know that they are truly saved. They're not just repeating after me, so I keep questioning them, six, seven, eight. So that's how I do it.

All right. In other denominations, there are different views as to what baptism accomplishes. And again, I'm sorry I know this isn't my notes I gave you, Tommy. I'm just so interested to hear because as a father, this is a subject I really want to hear other ministers and their thoughts and what you believe the Bible teaches.

And obviously, if you go to Lutheran church, they're going to say baptism causes regeneration. I had a group of Lutherans just like you guys who sat down with me. And if you think you guys give me a hard time, they really, at certain points, were giving me a hard time.

But I love them.

And I was thankful for them to give me some pushback. But they believe in baptismal regeneration. Would I be safe to assume that all of you gentlemen would not believe that baptism causes a person to be born again, that you would believe rather that baptism is an outward expression, but what happens on the inside happens prior to a person being baptized?

Would that be right?

Yeah, that would be correct. Yeah, and that's why, too, in our church, I just baptized a couple weeks ago. Boy, he was about eight, but he had gotten saved almost a year ago. But it was one of those things, too, where a lot of times younger kids, they'll make multiple professions.

And it was one of those deals where his parents, they were kind of waiting and wanting to see. And I guess the subject came up and they were talking to him. And it seemed very clear to him that he had gotten saved.

I led him to the Lord at camp the previous year, and he did. He wanted to get baptized. And so, yeah, I don't remember all the timelines with all my kids. But I believe very strongly that once a person gets saved, they should get baptized.

But I do think in the case of young children, sometimes we might, as a parent, question whether or not they really got it. I would never tell my child if they came to me and they're like, I'm wanting to get saved.

I would never refuse them or discourage them from calling on the Lord just yet. I'd let them do it right then. But I might want some time to pass to just kind of see and to make sure they understand it if it's at a young age.

And so we had some children that it was a little while later because we weren't sure. And that's why, too. And I don't remember which one of our kids, but there was one of them where it was we weren't real sure.

And then, you know, it was a while later. They're bringing up like, why haven't I been baptized? And so and then, you know, we kind of talked to them some more. And they were really sure that they had gotten saved before when they made that profession.

So we're like, well, good night. You know, if we've if our child is like saying, what does it mean to be baptized? And they're saying they believe with all their heart, you know, we're going to let them.

So, yes, that's probably the only error. I make an exception with a young child if you're not sure. And I agree with Pastor Obi, though. If if a parent came to me and they're like, you know, I do think my child saved and I would like them to get baptized and I would do it.

Amen.

Core IFB Distinctives

Well, what are some of the core distinctives that that make something or make a church IFB? And by that, I mean, if a church claims to be an IFB or if I'm looking for a church and I go visit an IFB, what are some of the main things that are across the board all of the IFB is going to agree on?

And I know I and correct me if I'm wrong. There's not really an official denomination because it's all independent churches. But there is expectations that if you're going to call yourself IFB, you would believe these things.

So I understand there may be a few things here that could be different. But here are the things we know for sure. And, you know, I'll start with Pastor Major. What are some of the core distinctives? Then we'll go around and see if anybody wants to add anything.

Sure.

I mean, I think one thing for sure that you can expect is when you go into an IFB church that the fundamentals of the faith are going to be correct. So you're going to have salvation by grace through faith.

It's not of works. It's belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, that he was God manifest in the flesh, that he died, was buried, rose again. Eternal security is one that you're going to walk into IFB church and you're going to expect that they hold that belief, that they believe in the eternal security of the believer.

Beyond that, you know, those fundamentals of faith, if you walk into an IFB church, some other things that you might expect to see or hear is they're going to be King James only. You're going to see that they probably have some higher standards when it comes to music and dress and so forth.

And so those are the types of things that I think you're going to see a lot in IFB churches.

All right. I want to circle back to you in a minute, Pastor Joe. I want to let everybody else answer. And I agree 100 Christ is God in the flesh, God manifest in the flesh. I agree with that. But I do want to I want to come back to you and I want to talk about some of the some of church history.

And OK, how do we see things like the doctrine of the Trinity in the early creeds? Do you guys accept or reject that? So I'll be back to you on that. I'll give you a chance to think about it. And so let's go to the other fundamentals real quick.

Is there anything that you would add to that, Pastor Obi, that Pastor Major said?

I'd say the Baptist distinctives, I expect to see that in the IFB church and male preachers or male pastors, not females. You'd be surprised it's everywhere except the Baptist churches. Then baptism and Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper.

I think that's part of the Baptist distinctives. So you expect to see that in a Baptist church.

And Pastor Obi, when you mentioned Lord's Supper, that's a great point. I know that our church would hold to the memorial view, which is actually outside of what's typically held in Reformed Baptist circles.

Most Reformed Baptist circles would hold to what's known as spiritual presence. It was the view of Calvin. But our church holds to the Zwinglian view, which is sometimes called memorialism or seeing the bread and cup as memorial.

Is that the position that's held by you guys as far as what the bread and the cup are? That it's not literally the body and blood of Christ or even spiritually, but rather it's the...

Of course. We just do it in remembrance of what Jesus did.

Yes.

Okay. How often do you participate, Pastor Obi, in that?

In our church, we do it once a year. Now, the Bible says, or Jesus said, you can do it as often as you do it. So there's no command that you should do it at particular times.

That's very helpful. Pastor Tommy, Pastor Joe, do y 'all also do it annually or is it more or less in your churches?

Yeah, we for sure do it. We always do it every Wednesday before Easter, for sure. And occasionally we might do it at a different time. Just depending. One time we did it around Christmas and there's been times too early on in our church too when I was going to be teaching on it and we observed it too during that time.

So if I feel like a situation calls for it, feel led to do it, we'll do it more than that. But for sure we do it at least once a year. Most times it's just the Wednesday before Easter.

Okay. Pastor Major, how often do you guys do it?

Yeah, so there's no set number that we have to do it every single year. And so I try to do it more than once a year. Sometimes I'm pretty bad at it. I just forget to schedule it sometimes. But we're going to be doing it here soon as well with Easter coming up.

And every church, every IFB church I was ever in growing up, they probably did it in most of the churches I grew up in, did it about four times a year.

And what does a person have to do to be able to participate in the Lord's Supper at your church, Pastor Major? Do they have to be a member or is it open to whomever claims the name of the Lord? Or would you say that like a person who is not a Baptist can't take it?

I'm just curious what your view is.

So in our church, the Bible says to let a man examine himself. And so I don't examine other people and their salvation. If they claim to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, whether they're a member of our church or not, if they claim to believe them at our church, we allow them to partake in the Lord's Supper.

Is that the same for you, Pastor Obi?

Yes, it is.

Okay. Pastor Tommy?

Our church, we practice closed communion, but that's just what we do. A lot of IFB are very divisive over that, and they'll break fellowship with you if you practice open communion. And honestly, it's the way it's always been done.

In my dad's church, it was always closed communion, but he didn't make a big deal about it. And it's never been a point of fellowship for us at all. And honestly, I can't prove we're right and they're wrong on that from the Bible.

Well, I didn't give you the chance, Pastor Tommy, to add anything as far as the fundamentals I've got here. I'm writing down as you guys were talking, just so that I can keep up. I see Pastor Joe, he mentioned, by grace of faith, not of works, Jesus God manifests in the flesh, eternal security, King James only, music and dress, very particular about that.

Baptist distinctives is what Pastor Obi said, with male preachers, which I agree 100 on that one. I've been excoriated some online by taking a strong stand on that, but I certainly agree that that's biblical.

And then, of course, the Lord's Supper. Would there be anything else, Pastor Tommy, that you would say you would add?

Yeah, I mean, I think they did a good job of kind of giving the doctrine. But I think too, part of being IFB, and we don't always put these things in their proper category, but there is a culture too.

And we do, we're old fashioned as far as we sing. If I go to an IFB church that says IFB in the phone book or on their website, I expect to hear hymns. I don't expect to hear contemporary songs. I do expect kind of an old fashioned feel as far as the dress and the church atmosphere.

And I think those things are important. I really do. And I want those in our church. I want to identify with those things, but I think we need to keep them in their proper place. They're not necessarily doctrine, but it is a culture thing that is important.

And it shows a direction that we're going. And I want to be open about who we are.

Sure. Sure.

And I think that's good. I mean, even if we were to disagree on some things, I think it's one, I think it's your right to believe and practice as you're convicted. And also, I think that we should be able to say, this is what an IFB is, and we're not trying to change the definition.

This is what, you know, I think that's a good thing. So one of the things you guys didn't mention, but when I was talking to Joshua Barzahn, when I had him on to talk about the history of fundamentalism, he mentioned dispensational theology, specifically with end times, pre-tribulation rapture.

Those things are pretty common in the IFB church. Is that correct? And again, I'm not saying he's right or wrong. I'm just saying that was something he mentioned. Would all of you gentlemen hold to a relatively dispensational view and as far as the pre-trib rapture and that stuff?

Well, that's where we're unique. And that was one of the questions that you had on your thing about like where we might be different. And so while I get along very good with dispensational pre-trib brethren, while I fellowship with them, I'm very non-dispensational.

We're post-trib. And so I thought, well, I better have guys who would align with me on that. And so all of us here, you know, well, I don't want to speak for these guys, but yes, we are non-dispensational.

And the thing is, I still think we're IFB because in a lot of your IFB churches, while they are pretty much all pre-trib, those have never been fundamentals. And that is a newer phenomenon. A lot of famous IFB people from the past, they did not hold to those things.

I personally think there was diversity in this area until the 70s is when it really got cemented in people's minds. And as much as I love the IFB and I'm thankful for so much from them, I think they are an error in these areas.

And so, yeah, I reject dispensationalism.

Okay.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, I agree with that too.

Well, that's how we found each other too. Because when you are non-dispensational and non-pre-trib, you're not treated the best in the IFB world. But they can't get rid of us because you know what?

The IFB is just right on too much stuff. And I'm too thankful for so much I've got from them. But I don't feel obligated to embrace something if I think it's an error. We were also told that our King James Bible is our final authority.

They would hold up their Bible and say, you show me in here where I'm wrong and I'll change. Well, nobody told me that you just say that. And so when I saw where I was wrong, I changed. But it'll get you in trouble.

But I still think I qualify as IFB.

Well, that's how we came together, isn't it? Brother Tommy, you reached out to me because of my eschatological view. Isn't that what I came on and talked on your show?

Yes.

So, yeah, because I watched your debate with Spencer Smith. And while I still consider myself, well, I'm still a premillennialist. I was agreeing with a lot more of what you were saying in that debate than what Spencer Smith was saying.

You know, Spencer Smith is heavily pre-driven, dispensational. And I think he's, you know, bless his heart, completely out the lunch on that. And so I'm not, I, you know, I was not real familiar with the amillennial view, postmillennial view.

And I thought it would. And when it comes to prophecy, I think we have to allow for some disagreement. And I think we need to allow ourselves to be challenged. That's not very IFB. I'll admit that. But that is me.

And so I was fine when it comes to these subjects. I'm fine with talking to other people and hearing what they have to say and giving it an honest and fair hearing.

For sure.

I've been very grateful. You know, I've had a good experience with Spencer. We did that debate. He and I, you know, we text each other back and forth. We've kind of become friends out of all this, even though it might have looked like we were going after each other like a couple of wrestlers.