Is It Effeminate to Sing in Falsetto?

There is obviously a push to get guys to do this more and more and more until it becomes the absolute normal.

Get them away from singing low for whatever reason. I think that is the concerning thing when you look at the whole picture, especially like worship leaders, how they dress, how they speak, how emotionally stable they are, because honestly,

I've met plenty who are not emotionally stable at all. Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences.

These audiences may include, but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your host, Harrison Kerrigan, Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is it effeminate to sing in falsetto?

Now, I bet there's probably a lot of people as we start off this episode that are thinking to themselves, there's no way

Tim has a Bible verse that goes along with this, but I bet you do, Tim. So, I want to hear it.

I want to hear it. I want to hear it. I want to hear it. What is it? Tim Mullett That's the one.

I know there's people out there right now that are pulling their hair out saying, Tim, that didn't mention falsetto at all.

It says, act like men, be strong. Act like men, be strong. So okay, so why don't we start there, because I know that's going to be a point of contention for most people.

So how does that relate to singing in falsetto in general? What's the connection there in your mind?

Sure. So, there's a lot to this expression, you know, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

And what's happened is most people when they read a phrase like that, basically, like their definition of masculinity, like what does it mean to act like a man, this is what they do in their mind.

So what they do in their mind is they instantaneously take an expression like that, act like a man, and they define it as like generic

Christian faithfulness, that's what they do. So they define it as generic Christian faithfulness.

So like whatever masculinity actually is to the world, they set that in opposition to biblical masculinity.

So biblical masculinity is basically in contrast to like the machismo, to being macho or something like that.

So what they do is they have a category for distorted masculinity, and then they have a category for biblical masculinity.

But then the problem is that biblical masculinity operates like almost the exact opposite spectrum as like worldly masculinity in that way.

And then what they do is they define like biblical masculinity as basically just generic biblical faithfulness.

But then the problem with that is that you have men and women who are different.

And if generic Christian faithfulness is masculinity under those terms, then masculinity is no different than femininity.

Does that make sense? So biblical masculinity and biblical femininity occupy the same set in that way.

So there's nothing different. So basically, what they do is they take anything that might be stereotypical masculinity, they say that's bad.

And then biblical masculinity is basically just this neuter, like generic human being, like being faithful to God kind of thing.

So but then - That at the end of the day, a female Christian could do as well. Right, which is like this is why like most pastors today are indistinguishable from women is because they followed this move.

They understand what the move is doing. And they're taking the logic of that to the extreme, right?

And this is why groups like the Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel, everything else, this is why they love effeminate men so much.

It's because effeminate men are just like their poster child for what they think of as biblical masculinity.

It's just like a non -threatening man, like milquetoast kind of man with a limp wrist and has all the effeminate mannerisms, possibly even wears a dress in his profile pictures.

So that's what they want. But then the issue is be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

In the Bible, that actually has content to it that's beyond just generic faithfulness, meaning you can read in the

Old Testament that it's an abomination for a woman to wear a garment pertaining to a man, or it's an abomination for a man wearing a garment pertaining to a woman.

He needs to act like a man, right? So he needs to act like men need to act like men, women need to act like women.

That even shows up in the way that they dress. In the New Testament, Paul talks about doesn't nature itself teach that if a man has long hair, it's a shame to him, but if a woman has long hair, it's for her glory.

So biblical masculinity even reaches to the idea of clothes and hairstyles even.

And part of what's happening is that there's a logic that undergirds it all that helps you distinguish between what men and women are actually for.

Does that make sense? Petey Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Jared So then once you realize that God made, like in the beginning,

God made them male and female, and then once you like search the Bible and figure out, well, what is different about the genders?

What were they created in different ways to do? You can piece together what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman in that way.

So then what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman has implications for how people present themselves.

Does that make sense? Petey Yeah. Jared Because they're made for different purposes, so you can present yourself as a man as an individual trying to accomplish a feminine purpose, and when you do that, you're not acting like a man.

Does that make sense? Petey Mm -hmm. Jared Or you can present yourself in a masculine way, and what that means is you're presenting yourself as being designed to accomplish masculine objectives based on your masculine design in that way.

So basically, what it means to act like a man, that has implications for the individual that extend to the way they present themselves, even in terms of their hair, their dress, their mannerisms, and everything else.

Does that make sense? Petey Yeah, yeah. Jared So I didn't connect the dots as to how that relates to different singing styles, but what

I'm trying to say is that what you have to understand is what is a man in the Bible? What has

God designed a man to do in the Bible? And then as you think through that, the ways you're answering that question are based on direct biblical passages and then what nature is actually teaching about masculinity and femininity too.

So what nature teaches about masculinity and femininity does factor into what does it mean to act even like a man.

Does that make sense? Petey Yeah, yeah. Jared So just as an example, it says, Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

Well, what is the difference between men and women as it relates to strength?

Well, men and women are just very different in terms of strength, meaning God's made men to be significantly physically stronger than women, right?

So if a woman were to make herself look like a UFC fighter by taking male hormones and everything else and lifting weights, maybe not even worse than a

UFC fighter, if she'd make herself look like a male bodybuilder or something like that, act like she's presenting herself as a tool that was made to be strong.

And in some ways, that's a distortion of femininity. People look at a woman doing that and they say, hey, you're butch, right?

You're acting like a man because you're not made to be like a bodybuilder. And when you do that, you don't look like a woman.

You look like a gross man, but not even like a good man, like a weak man. You look like a gross woman and you look like a weak man when you're doing that, right?

When you're taking on the Xeno warrior princess kind of thing going on. So the issue is because they're not made to be strong.

That's not what they're made for, right? So but then on the opposite end of that, if a man clothes himself in weakness, then you have a man who's devoted to trying to make himself look pretty, right?

Then that's an equal distortion because you're not designed for glory. Like a woman's made to be a glory of a man.

Like her long hair is for her glory to make her beautiful. Like the issue is you're trying to present yourself as a woman.

That isn't what you're designed to be. And it just comes off looking like a caricature at that point. So the issue is nature has something to say about that as well as the biblical commands have something to say about that.

So that all factors into what we're talking about. But anyways, acting like men, that is a phrase that has meaning.

That's going to be defined by God's purposes for men in the Bible and God, like the actual constitution of a man that God's given, like in distinction from how he's made women.

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So there's more to say, but that's part. So, so then when it comes to singing falsetto specifically, are you saying that like for a man, for a man to do that in any way, shape or form is to deny his manhood?

Like in a, you know, I mean, like, haha, you know, like, oh, you lost your man card. Not necessarily like that, but just like in the, in the, in the actual, like biblical category of, you know, like be strong, act like men, like that kind of act, that kind of category.

Um, are you saying that they're like, they're, they're missing it by when, whenever they sing in falsetto or is there more to it than that?

What exactly do you mean there? Yeah. So I think there's, I would want to say that what, like there's obviously a trend right now to get men to sing as high as they possibly can.

And there is obviously a trend in pop music in particular right now to get men to sing in falsetto.

And I mean, you can just watch shows like the voice or something like that. If you can stomach it, like you can watch shows like that, where like the men are singing like Adele songs and like crying like women.

And, um, they're being praised, like they're being praised for doing these things that are just fundamentally embarrassing.

Like there's nothing that, I mean, you can even just, you know, go back five, 10 years ago, whatever. There'd be nothing that would be more gay than a man trying to sing in Adele song.

In the minds of many people, but right now, like, if you do that, you're being courageous and you're going to get praised by, you know, the powers that be in the music world for trying to present yourself exactly like that.

So, I mean, there's obviously different types of falsetto and, you know, falsetto is not like a new phenomenon.

And I mean, some people were posting on a Twitter line where asked this kind of question, videos of, you know, older country singers who are sounding like Barney Fife or something singing.

And it wasn't necessarily like as womanly as what, you know, pop singers singing falsetto or sounding like today, but it did like sound very awkward and weird and uncomfortable to me.

Like it made me cringe a little bit and like feel weird inside, like listening to it. But I mean,

I think like the idea of falsetto in general, most people who are singing falsetto right now are doing it so that you have a man who is essentially sounding like a girl in that way.

I think most red blooded American male probably have that kind of reaction to it in general. It's like, you're a dude trying to sound like a girl.

And to the extent to which that's happening, I would say that's not a good thing. You know, that would not be a good thing.

Like if there is some kind of like tasteful, you know, musical way to pull it off, that would be beyond my musical knowledge.

You understand? Like there's part of this discussion that's over my head because I'm not like a musical person and I don't pretend to be a musical person.

So there's part of this that I'm open to like hearing like pushback and critique on.

But I think for the vast majority of people that I think the common red blooded American male,

I mean, you can just imagine a redneck who's listening to like a guy singing in falsetto.

And then the reaction is that sounds sissy, you know, like, and I think that that's I don't have an impulse to say that that reaction is totally off base.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. I think my concern with all of it is, you know,

I was reading through some of the replies we were getting on Twitter, and there were a lot of people who were coming along and essentially saying like some form of, hey, you know,

God has given every single person a specific vocal range, right?

Pete And that's mostly, you know, unique to that individual. And so, they need to use that entire vocal range to honor the

Lord, right? And so, that was an argument that a lot of people were making, which I personally,

I don't really have a problem with that argument. As like a just a general saying,

I think the problem comes from like, when you like, if I were to take those people who are saying that, and then like, if I had a way to look at the things that they were listening to all the time, when it came to music,

I guarantee you, there's not a single person they're listening to, who is using a low voice to sing, right?

And when you look at like, yeah, and like you mentioned, when you look at pop music, even when you look at like, you know, popular

Christian worship music, it's all like, hey, push the guys to sound or push the guys vocal range as high as possible, get the guys in the studio that have the highest vocal range possible.

And there's really no, there's really like, not, there's not really a very big market for the kind of person who has a low voice.

I mean, I can think just in music in general, I can think of like, just a handful of people who are famous for singing with a low voice, right?

But then, I mean, I feel like, I feel like most pop songs I hear involve, unless they're like rap or something, and sometimes at this point now, sometimes even rap songs will have like pop rap songs, pop songs in general, will have some form of a guy singing falsetto, singing really high.

And those are the songs that people are listening to the most. So, it's kind of like whenever I hear people saying the whole like, hey, use your whole vocal range to honor the

Lord. I don't really think people mean that at all, at all, actually. I mean,

I'm not, you know, what I'm not saying is there's literally no one out there who is popular for using a low voice.

I know there are some guys like that out there. Even in the Christian world, there's a few guys like that out there.

But the majority, I mean, like, you know, the Hillsongs, the Bethels, the Elevation, you know, the

Maverick City Worship or whatever their name is, you know, all of those people, like, they're pushing to get guys with, at best, like a mid -range voice, but normally it's sort of like a right in between, someone who can really sing mid, like the middle kind of stuff, but can really push their voice up high.

I mean, it used to, like, we used to make jokes, like, because I'm, you know,

I lead worship at our church. And, you know, we used to make jokes within the band about, like, the guys having girls, the popular worship bands, like Hillsong, having guys that just straight up sound like girls when they're singing, you know, it's like, how are we ever supposed to, how are we ever supposed to match this?

You know, and we moved on from playing their stuff, obviously. But, you know, back then, those were the kind of jokes we were making about bands like Hillsong and Bethel and all of them.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, like, you look at the things that people praise, and, I mean, you watch,

I mean, just watch, I mean, I wouldn't recommend you really watch any of the singing shows or whatever, but, like, if there is a guy that comes on who sounds like a girl and they can't tell if it's a girl or a guy, they get so, like, breathlessly excited about that.

Because, I mean, there is a societal wide push towards androgyny in general, but then this really,

I mean, there's a sense in which, like, the powers that be are trying to push towards androgyny, even as it relates to this subject.

But then the common man, like, I know that people get real excited when they see, when they hear someone with a really deep voice, because it's so rare to even have it be put out there, to where most guys in the room, they,

I mean, even if they can't go, they can't go near that low, instantaneously, what you get from the guys, like, is,

I admire that, right? Right. Like, when a guy can sing really deep, it's like, if I can't sing any, I mean,

I can't sing bass, you know, but when, but the issue is, you know, people think that if you ask these kind of questions, you're asking them out of some sort of insecurity or something like that, that you're desperate to prove your manliness.

It's like, I can't sing bass, but when I hear a guy who can sing bass, I don't get offended as if it's done, like, done something to reduce something in me.

I think that's good, you know, that's my instantaneous response is to say, man, that guy's really manly, you know,

I mean, and that's what guys think, I mean, regardless of whether you're allowed to say it, you know, like, you're, you're, my boys, that's what they think when they hear a guy who sings really deep, they get a grin on their face and they really like it, you know, and then they'll start, like, trying to, you know.

Pete Yeah, that's the knee jerk reaction is to like, oh, I'm going to try it.

Yeah, I'm going to try and hit that note. Jared I mean, it's a funny thing, because I mean, I was showing them pictures of Arnold Schwarzenegger, because they, they've never really seen, like, bodybuilder kind of types, but then all of my boys,

I showed them pictures of Arnold Schwarzenegger. They don't have bulging muscles, they're little kids, you know, but then they started taking off their shirts and then started flexing and trying to look like that.

Pete Trying to imitate. Jared Yeah, I showed my daughter or whatever, she's five and she's like, Pete There was none of that on her end, but all of them instantaneously just gravitated towards that, like, man, like, that's, but it's the same thing with a deep voice in that way.

And so part of what's happening is, like, the whole logic of the project is off. Like, meaning, like, let's step outside the singing realm for a second and talk about the speaking realm.

Like, obviously, guys have different tones of voice. So some guys have deeper voices than others. Some guys have higher voices than others.

And, you know, I'm not saying this as someone who has just a remarkably deep voice or something like that, a speaking voice or even a singing voice.

But, like, the issue is you have a great, like, I could sing at the highest range I possibly can and camp out at that and make that me, like my identity.

I could try to talk as high as I possibly can and camp out in that and signal to the entire world that I'm effeminate and I'm open to, you know, being sodomized by some dude or something like that.

But, I mean, that's essentially what's happening at the speaking level is when you have guys who, like, take their voice as high as they can possibly make it and adopt all the mannerisms of femininity, like, they're doing something immoral, okay?

Like, meaning, like, when you're camping, when you make that your identity, I mean, you can, as a guy, you can make yourself sound as girly as you possibly can and people are going to make certain assumptions about you.

Now, you can do that in the talking realm or you can, you know, try to talk in an exaggeratedly low realm, you know, so everyone has something that's comfortable and then they can push it as high as possible and make that their normal.

They can push it as low as possible, try to make that their normal. Either way, it kind of becomes comical at a certain point.

But then, like, everything you do, just because you can make your voice do something doesn't mean that it's good, what you're doing.

Does that make sense, what I'm saying? Mm -hmm. Like, just because you can make your voice, like, sound a certain way, that doesn't,

I can make my mannerisms sound a certain way. So, I mean, just thinking about that as it relates to speaking, like, that is relevant to this conversation too, like, meaning, like, everyone knows that if you have a guy who sounds like Dylan, you know,

Mulvaney or whatever, you know what that dude's doing, right? Yeah. That dude's pretending to be a woman, he's trying to present himself as a woman, and so that all factors into what we're talking about, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong.

Well, God made men to have lower voices than women. Right. Like, He made men to sound differently than women.

So, you can make your voice sound as girly as you possibly can and make that your normal. Society's going to praise you for that because they're going to, like, they want androgyny, they want no differences between men and women.

So, like, the issue is on your speaking voice, you can make your voice go as high as you possibly can all the time and talk like a little five -year -old girl or whatever as, like, a big dude man, you know?

And a lot of what's happened is, like, that's what society is training men to do as it relates to the way they speak and the way that they sing.

But just because it's within your range to do doesn't mean that that's necessarily something that would honor the Lord. So, meaning, if God made men and women biologically different to where men have different voices than women, then, you know, which way do you want to lean?

Do you want to be constantly leaning to where, like, in your speaking and in your singing, you know, you sound indistinguishable from a woman?

I think you're probably doing what our society is doing at that point to where there's something weird about that, you know?

And if people start making assumptions about that, you can't really fault them because you're presenting yourself in such a way that they can't, like,

I mean, if you can actually get to a point where they can't tell, am I listening to a man or a woman here? You're probably on a different project than God has had at that point, if that makes sense.

Petey You know, I think for people out there who might be, who are listening, who might still be just totally opposed to what you're saying,

I think it might be helpful to know that while I was preparing for this episode,

I just did a quick search on who were some of the top male vocalists who used falsetto a lot as part of their style.

And as I was reading through the list, it was funny because I was like, you know, I'd be reading and I'd be reading and scrolling and it's like,

OK, OK, that guy's gay, that guy's gay, that guy's gay too.

Oh, yep, him too. He's also gay. You know, and it's like, at least half of the list was gay people or people that it's like,

I suspect are gay, but some that were just out, you know, outwardly that way.

And I think that should be a telling, like, if you're trying to make this, especially if you're trying to make this like a core part of how you of how you sing in general.

And your identity. Yeah. You're the guy who they can't tell if he's gay. Like, hey, you're the same as, you know, you're the same as Freddie.

I mean, that's what Freddie Mercury did. You know, that's what Prince did. All of these guys.

Who is the other one that I, there is another. The Bee Gees, obviously. I mean, everyone kept on, the thing goes, everyone on those internet interactions, they kept on posting pictures of the

Bee Gees. And I mean, it was just embarrassing. It's like, these are a bunch of dudes with long hair who are doing girly mannerisms, girly dance moves.

It's just like, I know that it was funny back in the day, you know, when you're a pagan singing like that, but this isn't like, there's nothing about this.

Like, this is gender bending the whole way down, you know, this is everything. This is everything about this is gender bending.

So, like, these aren't actually good examples here. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And, you know,

I guess from my perspective, it's like, I actually am a little bit, you know,

I actually am a little bit more on the, you know, hey,

God's given every single person a certain vocal range, and they should use that vocal range to honor the

Lord. But then I actually mean, like, you should use the low part.

Not just the high part. And then I'm just saying use every part so that you don't realize that I actually only mean the high part.

But then, you know, I think what really concerns me with this conversation is just, I think the topic of falsetto in general is just indicative of the larger, like, what you're saying, trying to make men as effeminate as possible.

And I think you see this, like, especially in worship leader. I mean, worship leaders are, like, the butt of so many jokes when it comes to how they act, how they talk, what they wear, you know, and how theologically -

Jared Stay there. Pete Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I've told plenty of people at our church, like, hey, if you ever see me, you know, because I'm the worship leader,

I guess maybe there's, like, you just have to start doing it long enough and then that's how you get sucked into it or something.

I don't know. But, you know, I've joked with people essentially saying, hey, if you ever see me, you know, if you ever see me wearing those wide -brim hats on Sunday, you know, if you ever see me, like, with those stereotypical, like, unisex boots that all the guys and girls are wearing at the same time, if you ever see me wearing a romp hem, and if you don't know what a romp hem is, just go look up what a romp hem is.

Jared This is pretty funny. So, at my last church, there was a situation where I had to lead worship for a little bit and instantaneously all the, you know, the young marriages and everything else, they started mocking me mercilessly.

They were saying, now that you're leading worship, you know, when are you going to bring out the romp hems?

Pete When are you going to grow out your hair and wear the man bun? Jared I mean, but I mean, there's a joke for a reason.

There's obviously a joke for a reason. No, yeah. And, you know, I mean, when I was in school, I mean,

I met a ton of guys who were currently leading worship or were, you know, heavily involved with the worship team at their church, and so many of them were just, like, extremely effeminate.

And I don't just mean, like, in the way they dressed themselves. I mean, like, in the way they talked or in the way they spoke, in the way that, like, they understood the

Bible in general and how they studied things. Their emotions, like, they were very effeminate in their emotions.

It was just, I mean, obviously, like, the way they dressed was a part of it, but, I mean, it was very much -

Jared But they're being encouraged in every single way to adopt all the mannerisms, the habits, the practices, and, you know, portray themselves as women.

And so, they do have the emotional range of what they do. And so, for me, as a worship leader myself, in a lot of ways,

I feel like I'm a little bit of an anomaly. Like, I'm all by myself out here being, you know, and that's probably just a large part because of where we came from, you know, as a church in general anyway and where we live geographically.

But, I mean, when you look at Hillsong, when you look at Bethel, when you look at all of these big worship bands, all of the guys are wearing the tightest jeans possible and, you know, the shirt with the

V -neck that's cut all the way down to their belly button and, you know, the wide -brim hat and the man bun and whatever, and, you know, they're singing as high as they possibly can in ways that I just can never,

I will never be able to do myself personally, you know? And it's just like,

I think that's where I'm not necessarily like, hey, anytime you use falsetto, you've done something wrong or gross as a guy.

Where I am at, personally, is there is obviously a push to get guys to do this more and more and more until it becomes the absolute normal.

Get them away from singing low, you know, for whatever reason. And I think that is the concerning thing when you look at the whole picture, how, especially like worship leaders, how they dress, how they speak, how emotionally stable they are because honestly, like,

I've met plenty who are not emotionally stable at all. How the way, you know, how the way they sing and then on top of all of that, they,

I mean, more often than not, they barely know anything about the Bible. I mean, they sound like, you know,

I'm not making this as like a joke or trying to get at anyone, but they genuinely, yeah,

I mean, oftentimes they do sound like people who just aren't even saved. And I've even,

I can't remember if I've told this story before, but I have spoken to guys who are like, hey,

I want to be a worship leader, you're a worship leader, you've figured it out, what do I need to do to become a worship leader?

And by the end of the conversation, you know, like I've asked them all these questions. I haven't, you know,

I haven't asserted anything. I've just asked them a bunch of questions and read them the Bible, and then they're leaving it thinking,

I don't even think I'm a Christian actually, you know? And it's like that's the state of more worship leaders than I think people realize is like they're just totally theologically weak.

So, anyway, all that to say is my main concern with all these things is just I think our culture in general and our culture within the

American church is to try and make men, whether they be pastors, whether they be deacons, whoever it is, they're trying to make men as effeminate as possible.

And I think you see that in the style of singing that is the most popular in the

Christian music world and then in the larger secular music world as well.

Jared Yeah, I mean, that's definitely true. So, I mean, I think when people, I think the way to navigate this discussion, you know, theologically is just to think, you know, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

So, what are the differences between men and women? And I think related to dress, related to hairstyles, related to mannerisms, related to tone of voice kind of issues, how we present ourself,

I think, you know, gender bending is profoundly wrong. And so, as it relates to all these things, you want to emphasize the dissimilarities that are natural to men and women.

You don't want to try to blur the lines. And so, to the extent to which, you know, a guy is just talking as, you know, as high as he possibly can, as feminine as he possibly can, as girly as he possibly can, everyone knows what's happening.

They can see it. And what's, you know, the frustrating thing about it is when you have these kind of conversations, people can't make these basic distinctions.

Meaning, like, so if you ask a question like this, people think you're beating up on all the tenors or something like that.

But it's like, hey, you can be a masculine tenor or you can be a girly one, you know? Like, you know, so you have a range and you can push your range and you can take the way that you even sing and express yourself.

You can make it as, you know, breathlessly feminine as you possibly can in the way that you talk and the way that you sing.

Or you can have a natural range and, you know, you're not pushing it to be as girly sounding as possible, but you're just pushing it to be as manly as you possibly can, right?

So there's different impulses that a person can have as it relates to the way they speak and the way they sing, knowing that there's differences.

You know, I'm never going to sing bass. I can try to sing bass, it'd be a, you know, caricature. It wouldn't work.

But, you know, I can try to sing, like, I mean, I can get out there and I can, you know, memorize the

Adele song and I can try to belt it out as high as I possibly can and make a fool of myself. Or I can, you know, try to actually present myself as a man, even in the way

I'm singing. And so, I think there's certain things that used to be intuitive to us as it relates to this kind of conversation that are now not intuitive anymore.

You know, so I think we need to, yeah, definitely regain some kind of sanity there for sure.

Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on. And certainly it is concerning, like we've been saying, it is concerning the push in general to make guys, and in this context, you know, vocalists as effeminate as possible.

And I mean, seriously, like, there's a reason, you know, there's jokes about worship leaders.

You know, there's a reason that there's jokes about, like, the guy with the high voice is normally the gay guy.

I mean, those jokes are rooted in reality, you know, and they're funny because there's truth in them.

And so, I think that is like a bit of a, for people who might still be skeptical, I really do think you need to think through why are those types of jokes, why are those types of stereotypes actually there in general?

You know, and maybe this is a little bit more serious conversation than I realize.

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