News Roundup: Bryan Chapell's List, SBC Transparency, Lucado's Church, Buice, NEOTR & More

Conversations That Matter

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00:28

Welcome to the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris for a late night, Thursday night stream.

00:34

I wasn't planning on doing this necessarily tonight. I was hoping to do it this morning and the day got away from me.

00:41

I would appreciate your prayers. I've got a lot going on and I didn't really plan for any error.

00:48

There's a number of things I need to prepare for and write that need to happen before the end of the month.

00:55

Yesterday, my refrigerator decided that it would stop working and then I thought I had it working and then it stopped working again.

01:02

It took a lot of time. Then, of course, my computer stopped working.

01:07

I actually have gone through the process of redoing the computer, wiping the hard drive, starting from scratch twice now.

01:15

I think it finally works. I was looking online today because I thought, wow, if this doesn't work, it just keeps freezing up on me and maybe it'll still do that.

01:26

It seems like it's been doing pretty well, but I thought I'll just have to buy another computer. I was looking online and I'm like, my goodness, for 800 bucks,

01:33

I could get one that's twice as good as the one I have. I only have 16 gigabytes of RAM and a terabyte in my hard drive.

01:42

Anyway, not that anyone cares about my woes, but I just thought this is actually a dated piece of equipment.

01:48

Maybe that's part of my problem. I should get something a little better, but we'll see. Those things come up in life though.

01:55

I'm actually leading a study on the book of James. It's a small church that's more of a church revitalization project,

02:04

I guess you could say. Anyway, every Wednesday night, I go up there and lead a Bible study.

02:09

I was thinking this week a lot about James 1 because that's where we are. Two weeks ago, we did trials.

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Of course, last week was temptations. Then we talked about being doers of the word last night and not just hearers.

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With everything that is happening around me, I'm just like, okay, James has given me the wisdom.

02:28

James has said where to find it. James is telling me I got to view this from a heavenly perspective, so I'm just going to be obedient and trudge on and we'll get through it.

02:37

I did want to give you something, at least. Just a few quick announcements. There is a podcast dropping

02:43

Saturday morning with Dr. Don Livingston. I did an interview with him on ideology or ideology, depending on your pronunciation or pronunciation.

02:55

It's a heady podcast and it wasn't really video worthy. Anyways, it's coming out in audio.

03:01

For all those who watch on video, just be aware of that Saturday morning. If you want to get more conversations that matter podcasts in your life, and I don't know why you wouldn't, then you're going to want to sign up or at least find on iTunes or Spotify that particular episode.

03:17

Then I forgot. Oh, the other thing. Yes, the Edmund Burke episode dropped, the first one.

03:23

This is a Patreon exclusive. I've given it to a few other people who are supportive of the podcast. If you want it and you don't have the means to pay the five bucks or to become a

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Patreon, just message me and I will send you the link because I want as many people who want it to have access to it.

03:38

I also knew that I needed to do some exclusive content for supporters. This is my way once a month of doing that.

03:45

This is, of course, a series that I'm doing on the great books of conservative thought,

03:51

Anglo -American Christian conservative thought. I think it'll be very beneficial. I'm already getting a lot of good feedback on this episode regarding Edmund Burke.

04:01

Anyway, good evening. Good evening. W .T. Henry is in channel and I'm seeing people start to filter in.

04:09

It's always good when I don't plan a podcast, but I see people, I don't know how you get it, maybe notifications.

04:16

See, this is a problem. I've been doing this for six years. I still don't exactly know how it all works, but you should probably subscribe.

04:23

That's right. Yes. You should be getting the notifications and everything. I'm pretty sure if you subscribe on YouTube, that's what happens.

04:28

I don't know if they send you an email or what, but that would probably be good. Well, let's talk about some things.

04:36

There's a lot of things to talk about today, this evening. We're going to talk about a couple of things that won't take a lot of time.

04:44

Some of them are pretty hysterical, to be honest with you. Let's just start with one. This is actually pretty funny to me.

04:55

We're just incentives, especially compared to the slow work of serving inside an institution.

05:03

What do we do? Colin, you and I didn't talk about that previously.

05:10

You read that and I didn't know you would, but you may have seen me glance aside. The reason

05:15

I did was, I'm going to show this to you quickly. I keep the note on my desk. Those are the names of the scandalizers, the people who have invested hours every day attacking others for their supposed lack of faithfulness for their compromise, whose identity comes from scandalizing others.

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Every name on that list has either left his family, left the faith, or taken his life. Every name on that list.

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It amazes me. I've done this for almost 50 years now.

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I've been in ordained ministry. I can tell you almost with certainty, those who build their reputations on destroying the reputations of others will end up with terribly dark lives.

06:15

You just cannot live in darkness in this segment of your life. I'm going to spend my life trying to make fun, mock, scandalize other people, but I'm going to be tender and precious and kind with my wife and children.

06:29

All right. That was a podcast from the Gospel Coalition. You saw

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Colin Hanson there interviewing Brian Chappell. Brian Chappell is someone, if you've gone to seminary, you've probably had to read some

06:40

Brian Chappell if it was a conservative evangelical seminary. I had to read his book on worship. I think

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I've actually read a few books of his, if I'm not mistaken. He's kind of a common name in the

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PCA and in broader evangelicalism. He's written a number of books. He was at, I think, Covenant College, if I'm not mistaken.

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Anyway, that's him. As you can see, he holds up this list.

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Now, before I get to the really funny part here, it's kind of a weird thing, right? I mean, I don't know.

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I just thought it was odd. I actually am probably one of the kinds of people he's talking about, right?

07:17

Because the whole context is Colin Hanson is saying, there's these guys, they don't have to do the real work of the ministry because they just ripped down other people's ministries.

07:26

There's probably some truth to that. There are people, I think, that are like that, but I think Colin Hanson tends to cast with such a large net on this topic that it's those pulpit and pen people,

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I would be included, people who disparage or not even disparage, just are critical of the gospel coalition, right?

07:45

I mean, I've seen Colin post those kinds of things for a long time. He's very sensitive to those attacks on TGC.

07:51

Well, he talks about this and then Brian Chappell's response is, you know what? Those people who go after others,

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I got a whole list of them right here, right there. I'm ready for it. I keep it right here next to me, close to me in my office.

08:05

I don't even do that. That's really weird. Like I'm one of the people that's supposed to do that, right? Or maybe, I don't know, maybe

08:11

David Morrill at Protestia. He just has a, right next to him, there's a list of all those guys that he just doesn't like because they don't do the real work of ministry and they have catastrophic results in their lives.

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They're just terrible people. They're awful. They are the, what did the scandalizers? You would think the scandalizers would be the ones to have a list like that, but Brian Chappell, who's not the scandalizer, has a list like that.

08:40

That's really weird. It's like, you wonder, are people living in his head rent -free?

08:45

Well, here's the hysterical part. In that particular video that you saw, there was an edit they did where they tried to blur out the list.

09:00

The original podcast did not have that blur. The Gospel Coalition, somehow it gets past their editing process to show the list.

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Then they uploaded a version where they blur out, or maybe they just used YouTube's edits to blur out the list.

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Then they just deleted the whole entire or made it private. I don't know, but it's gone. You can't get that podcast video anymore.

09:24

Well, fortunately, we do have the technology. There were some people who decided that they would take it upon themselves to give you the list.

09:35

Here is Gabe Wrench posting the list, apparently. You can't read all of it, but there's a clear picture of the list.

09:43

Yeah, it's pretty clear. There's some interesting names on it. David Bailey seems to be one of the media.

09:52

That's someone who's a watchdog group in the PCA. No, sorry,

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I'm getting that wrong. Sorry, Tim Bailey, I think, is the guy I'm thinking of. There's a guy that looks like David Bailey, then

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Tim Bailey. Tim Bailey is the one I was talking about. Ken Pierce, Lane Keister, Wes White, Frank Smith, Jeff Myers, Peter Lightheart.

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That's interesting. Peter Lightheart, now he's in the CREC, I think. David Weingraft, Jeff Hutchinson, Andy Webb, Amy Byrd, Carl Truman.

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Carl Truman is on this list. When I saw that, that discernment blogger,

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Carl Truman, when you think of evangelical squishes in my mind, the conservative squishes, guys who can't really take a big stand when it'll cost them, but when it won't cost them, they'll take a good stand.

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They like to do the intellectual thing in the abstract, going after threats, but not actually going after it when it's attached to someone.

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Anyway, that kind of a person. I think of a few guys, but Carl Truman's on my short list for that.

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I'm thinking Grove City College, he went to bat for those guys. There's no wokeness here, and he'll write against wokeness and social justice.

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Meanwhile, they're doing CRT stuff, and he just flat out denies that it's happening. That's Carl Truman.

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I've done other stuff on Carl Truman. Not saying everything he says is necessarily bad or wrong, but he's got that squish thing going on.

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Anyway, Carl Truman, though, I guess is one of these guys. He's one of the scandalizers, according to Ryan Chappell.

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Talk about drama. Then you have Daryl Hart. Daryl Hart, I wasn't expecting that either.

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He's very critical of Christian nationalism. He actually has some good books. I know that could get me in trouble with some of the guys who are like hardcore

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Christian nationalist types, but he actually does have some good historical material. I'm not going to lie, at Grove City College.

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Then let's see, who else? Bill Smith, Phil Harden, Liam Gallagher, Carl Thurman, and Carl McIntyre.

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I don't know if that's McIntyre from the old fundamentalist days. I don't know. That's weird if he's got that name.

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He's been gone for a while, but that's the list. Why is this relevant, John? Who cares? Is this just stupid drama?

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Because if it was just stupid drama, I wouldn't be giving it to you. I actually don't think it's stupid drama.

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For those who are outside of the PCA, it might not make as much sense.

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He's the stated clerk. What does that mean? It's like being the president of the Southern Baptist Convention if you're a

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Southern Baptist. He is the executive and the spokesperson, the representative, the face of the

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PCA. That's who Brian Chappell is. It's kind of a big position.

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Then to reveal your enemies list publicly—I know he's not saying it's enemies. These are scandalizers.

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That's going to get you in trouble. Exhibit A, Andy Webb, right here. Wow. According to the stated clerk of the

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PCA, Brian Chappell, I am one of the scandalizers who have either left the faith, their family, or taken their life.

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I'm happy to report that rumors of my demise or apostasy or divorce have been greatly exaggerated, but now everyone is asking, how did you end up on the stated clerk's enemies list?

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Well, I suspect it goes back to 2001 when Chappell was the president. Wow. We're going back over 20 years here.

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I just side note here. That's incredible to me. I understand. There's guys

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I can go back in my mind. I know I'm younger, but 15 years, even 20 years almost, I can think of guys that I was kind of close to, but now if we saw each other, it would be awkward because even though a decade or two has passed, there was friction.

13:48

There were problems. I think everyone has relationships that go south or friendships that go south for whatever reason.

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If it was never really dealt with, which I do try to deal with every single time that happens—it doesn't happen often, but if it ever happens, that is something

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I try to at least address and have a conversation about. So far, as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

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I believe in that. I practice that. Anyway, I can't imagine, though, something over 20 years ago keeping a name on a list next to me.

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That's incredible. I wouldn't want to remember that person, probably, because it brings up pain.

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That's most people. Unless that's driving me, it's just really, really strange behavior.

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But if it's true, if what he's saying is true, and it's from something over 20 years ago, he says, Chapel was the president of CTS.

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What is that? Theological Seminary. Is that Charlotte? I don't know. Despite their attempts to cover it up, it got out that a woman had delivered the sermon in Chapel on at least two occasions.

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As a result, at the next General Assembly, at least one overture was sent up for an investigation. I was on the overture's committee, and I spoke in favor.

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Chapel was in the room and was given the privilege of the floor, then stood up and defended the seminary. So basically, he went after the seminary that Chapel was a president of for the right thing.

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That's the only thing he could think of, apparently, that would merit why he's on this list. It blows you away a little bit because it's a little bit like the

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Josh Bice thing, but worse in a way. I think he was unanimously voted on to be the executive for the

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PCA. So he has this larger -than -life reputation as a good theologian, a measured guy.

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As far as I know, I don't have a close look, so maybe that's not completely true once you get closer. I don't know.

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But I know he's been respected everywhere I've gone, at Southeastern, at Masters. He's not the kind of guy that ends up popping into headlines very much.

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He's not going to be featured on Protestia's website, let's say. But this is what's going on in his heart, apparently.

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He's got this list next to him. Man, don't become so petty, guys.

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That's all I got to say. This is the kind of thing that, honestly, this will probably help bring him down.

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I don't know if God is doing a purge himself. He is exposing ministries and people who have been in positions of influence, and he's showing what their hearts are really like.

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It just seems that way to me. It seems like there's so many instances of this, of clarifying situations that just show you that that's who this person actually is.

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Ultimately, no one escapes God's judgment, right? God knows everything. God knows what you're posting through your

16:41

Anon accounts. No one's going to escape that. But I thought that was interesting. I'm going to switch gears here, but I want to get to some of the comments here because there's a lot of them coming in.

16:56

It's terrible for the PCA to have this guy on top. Yes. No wonder they invited David French to speak.

17:03

I didn't think of that, but you're probably less, probably true. Okay. Less blah, blah about your boring church politics and more chest hair reveals, please.

17:14

Okay. Thanks, Merton. What a weird comment. I didn't see a names list that I recognize.

17:20

Well, if you're in the PCA, you'd recognize it. Amy Byrd. Yes. Well, Amy Byrd, yeah, she's kind of gone off the deep end with her theology, from what

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I understand. Matt says, I finished your Audible book that would be Against the Waves, Christian Order, and the

17:34

Liberal Age. I posted a review. If you need help with your... Oh, that's very nice.

17:40

Thank you. I've had a few people offering to help me with tech hookup and computer stuff.

17:46

Yeah, I realize I kind of do this for a living, so I should probably have a good computer, but I'm not wanting to replace this one yet.

17:55

It's expensive, and I'd like to get a few more months out of it, at least. So we'll see. Maybe we'll get a few years.

18:01

I'm the Black Friday sale kind of guy, at least I used to be, until Black Friday was overtaken by Cyber Monday.

18:08

So I hate trying to buy a computer in the spring. I'm just saying. Well, let's talk about this.

18:15

Speaking of women speaking in chapel, this is Oak Hill's church, and this is where Max Lucado is a pastor.

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Now, this is, or I think he's might be emeritus at this point, but this is his church. Now, on Mother's Day, apparently the sermon was led, the service was led by women, the whole thing.

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But the sermon itself was delivered by Jenna Lucado Bishop, who is his daughter, Max Lucado's daughter. Now, someone emailed this to me because they are essentially leaving the church.

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It's the last straw. I think it's a number of things that have culminated, but this is the last straw. This would not be a story except for this.

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This is still live on oakhillschurch .com, and it is there a study of the role of women in the church.

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It's 119 pages, and it is the position of the church on women in ministry, essentially.

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So here is the relevant part for you. Oak Hill's women are currently barred from leading and serving in the following roles, and I do quote, preaching and teaching in the worship centers, leading public prayers in the worship centers.

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So what's going on? And what's going on is there's many instances of this, but you can have solid doctrine.

19:31

You can have a good statement of faith. People can go look it up and feel comfortable and say, that might be a good church.

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Let's go check it out. None of that matters if it's not actually being applied.

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If it's not followed, then who cares? You can have the best statement of faith in the world, and that's what's going on at Max Lucado's church.

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They do have a pretty solid statement of faith from what I understand. I haven't read it all, but I think they would be different than the tradition

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I'm part of, and probably loose on some things. But on that particular point, that is their doctrine.

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That's what they believe. They're not following it though. And to me, that's actually great. That is a greater lack of integrity to me, to not follow your own rules.

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It would be better for them to change the rules and just say, you know what? We're going to allow women pastors. Now, I obviously don't agree with that because I don't think the apostle

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Paul agrees with that, but that would have more integrity in doing that than to just violate, which your claims to believe.

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So just another warning to everyone who's looking for churches, and especially

20:33

I see this with people moving to different areas. They're trying to get out of a blue state, perhaps to go to a red state.

20:39

And so they're looking online, they're listening to sermons, and most of all, they're looking at statements of faith. And I think you should, but don't think that that doesn't actually reflect exactly what the church believes.

20:51

And I was having a conversation with someone, necessarily, I should say, it could reflect it. I was having a conversation with someone earlier today about this, that in evangelical circles, so often the only metric used for assessing whether someone is within the bounds of acceptability is whether or not they are within the boundaries of orthodoxy.

21:13

So can they subscribe to your statement of faith or confession? And if they can, then you're in, right?

21:19

We assume that people aren't going to lie, so we just take them at their word. We assume that they have the same interpretation of those things as we do, and sometimes they don't.

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We assume that they don't have other beliefs that contradict and undermine their stated beliefs. We just assume these things so often.

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And I don't know that we've ever actually escaped this. Even guys who are more edgy, and they'll say things like, shouldn't we allow kind of,

21:52

I'll just use the broad, vague language of more nefarious characters who happen to be on the right.

21:58

Shouldn't we let them in our church and give them positions even of influence because on the sole basis of they say they agree with the statement of faith, right?

22:07

And I pointed out that if someone, let's say someone came in and said, you know what, I agree with your full statement of faith.

22:14

And then you find out they're really big fans of the 1619 project. And that's what they really enjoy.

22:20

Maybe that's their secular job. They're a college professor and that's what they parrot. What do you do about that?

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I think that's something worth looking into because it's like, you know, they could say, we just have a different view of history.

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That's all we have. There's no actual difference in regards to our stated beliefs here.

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We both have a confession that we hold to. Or they could have a character that's lousy and you don't actually know them.

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I mean, there's all kinds of different ways to see that someone might not be qualified for leadership or influence, but they believe in your statement of faith.

22:52

Anyway, separate topic. But I think it's worth bringing up that just because there's a statement of faith that does not necessarily mean everything is good now and tucked away and you don't have to worry about it.

23:05

You got to do some due diligence, which also means probably spending some time. I don't actually think

23:11

I know there's obviously every circumstance is different and there's probably exceptions to this, but I don't know that it's wise to join a church right away.

23:19

To be quite honest with you, you might want to just check it out for a little while. I was just talking to my dad, who's a pastor today about this with a couple that's going to go into our church.

23:29

They've been looking though, they kind of come from a distance and they've been looking in other areas and you have to go for a while to really figure out, is this above board?

23:39

And there was a pastor, good statement of faith, preached the word, expository. And it's looking like that guy might be on, let's just say one of those lists that the government puts out to warn you not to bring your kids near them.

23:53

So I'm just saying. All right, well, let's move on with my word here.

23:59

I could talk about this for a long time. Let's see, what do we want to talk about next? Let's talk about this. This is another denominational thing.

24:06

This is posted by Vicki Jackson. Vicki Jackson does a really good job on the church of the Nazarene.

24:12

And I know it doesn't get as much play and cover, but Vicki, if you're a Nazarene, you might want to subscribe to her on YouTube.

24:18

She sends me stuff sometimes. And this is a meeting.

24:26

I'm not going to play it for you. It's about 45 minutes, so I'm not going to play the whole thing.

24:31

But Elijah Friedman is the person you see here. He's been on the podcast and he is reading,

24:38

I don't I guess a resolution. I think they call it resolution. And this particular resolution is a call to urge the

24:49

World Evangelism Fund for the Church of the Nazarene to urge them to stop giving money, which they give about one point one million dollars a year to the

25:00

Nazarene Theological Seminary. The Nazarene Theological Seminary employs professors who affirm same sex sexual intimacy.

25:08

And so I would be comfortable saying they have heretics at their seminary and they don't have the capacity or the means somehow to do anything about this.

25:17

They still enjoy their privileged positions there. He named some of them, Steve McCormick, Michael Christensen, and they have

25:24

LGBTQ plus affirming views that undermine obviously the doctrine of that denomination.

25:30

But yet the denomination keeps funding this particular school. Now it's interesting, this did receive opposition at this district meeting.

25:39

Pastor Darren Brown and Dr. Dan Boone opposed the resolution. Brown argued that the assembly lacks enough information and trusts the board of trustees at Nazarene Theological Seminary and the general superintendents to handle the issue, calling the resolution divisive.

25:57

Boone argued or warned against using platforming to shame institutions and defend academic engagement with diverse views and notes that Nazarene Theological Seminary's leadership is accountable in addressing concerns and urged a more nuanced approach.

26:12

So this is the kind of play I see across denominations. It's breaking protocol.

26:21

They'll handle the issue. We can trust them. It's just a blind trust. How about we trust them with our over $1 million a year that is given from our churches once they actually solve the issue and then they can get the money back.

26:36

And then they'll prove that we can trust them. How about that? It's amazing that there's an assumption that they should just continue getting millions of dollars because on their good work, because, oh, academic, you're going to have different views in academia.

26:51

Really, where are the boundaries for that? This is a confessional that this is, this is a group that has stated beliefs and they expect those beliefs to be propagated.

27:04

They're not, this isn't a liberal arts school. This is a church of the Nazarene school.

27:11

So this is where the pastors are trained. Why in the world would you do that? Um, anyway, that was, uh, you know, good on Elijah for, uh, standing up and trying to, uh, do something here.

27:23

I really, really appreciate that. Um, and then, you know, there's a bunch of stuff that, oh, you know what?

27:30

I'm forgetting because I didn't, ha, I didn't play it. Well, let me play it now. I have a video queued up for you. Speaking of speaking of financial accountability and, um, and all that kind of thing.

27:43

I want to play you a clip from the send network event that happened a few days ago. This is in the

27:48

North American mission board for the Southern Baptist convention and his president Vance Pittman. And I don't know if you're gonna be able to hear everything he says.

27:55

I'm going to try to play it. Maybe in the comments, let me know if you can hear this or not. It's kind of on a bad camera. It's a, it's a phone camera, but this is what he had to say about financial transparency in the

28:04

Southern Baptist convention in the SBC that has an independent auditor paid full time to audit every receipt that is turned in.

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And that independent auditor does not report to anyone in this building. She reports directly to the trustees appointed by the

28:33

Southern Baptist convention to hold us accountable. There's only one entity that has a full time independent auditor.

28:42

If I take somebody to lunch for $12, I'm going to be honest. I think this audio is pretty bad.

28:49

Uh, I don't know if you can hear that. So I'm just going to summarize what he's about to say. You can go online and find it if you want.

28:54

It's Vance Pittman, the, uh, send send network event that happened a few days ago.

28:59

It's on X Megan Basham commented on it. He argues Vance does that the send network and he's angry.

29:07

He, well, he's, he's forward. He's very forceful about this. Very, very direct, very adamant that the send network is financially accountable.

29:17

There is transparency. Well, he doesn't say transparency. They're accountable. Okay. So he doesn't like all this talk about financial transparency because, uh, for every year, for maybe the last five years, there's been some kind of a movement to try to get,

29:32

I mean, that was kind of what Randy Adams ran on, right. To try to get some kind of a financial audits.

29:38

If we could audit and find out where the money's coming from and where it's going, that would be great.

29:43

And he says, well, we got auditors though. We got, we have people that are, uh, they're, they're accountable to the trustees.

29:49

Of course we have people that are, they're looking after this. Just trust us. It's the same thing.

29:55

It's like, just trust us. Now here's the thing you could, you could make sure that the balances line up that, uh, the money coming in is spent and everything adds up.

30:08

You know, you could have an, I don't know, does he say auditor or accountant? Now I'm trying, I can't, I can't remember, but they have, they have accountants.

30:14

Okay. They have accountants that make sure that everything lines up. That doesn't answer though, where, where's the money coming from and where is it going is,

30:21

I mean, if someone's on the payroll, let's say some pastor who's already got his own payroll and now he's doing hardly anything for send, but he's getting another,

30:29

I'm just hypothetical here. Not that I know anyone who would do that. Getting another payroll. If there's things like that and you discover that, then yeah, the numbers might all add up, but they're going to bad things.

30:39

Um, or, or they're going to frivolous things or property or whatever. The problem is that the messengers to the convention don't actually know what's going on with the money that their churches give to the convention.

30:52

Uh, at least they, I mean, if they could get some itemized, you know, like a nine 90 or something that shows you this, but there, what he proceeds to argue is the messengers actually don't need to know that information because there are trustees.

31:07

And then he uses this emotional thing and says, well, these trustees, they're, they're just normal everyday men and women given their last best effort.

31:14

And they're, they're on these trustee boards and they're just doing their best. And then you're saying that they're not doing a good job.

31:21

Well, we're saying Southern Baptists are saying, we just want to see the books.

31:27

We just want to see where our money's, uh, what our money's being spent on. Is that too much to ask?

31:33

Well, apparently it is. Apparently it is. And it's the same thing you just saw at the church of the

31:38

Nazarene. It's you, you just got to trust the leaders. You can't ever question if, if everything is above board, what's the big deal?

31:45

That's my question. What's the big deal? Just make it publicly available so people can see it.

31:51

That's all it doesn't. How does that insult anyone that actually is probably going to, uh, be a good thing for trustees because it will give them, um, it, it, it'll back up the good ones who don't want ways to want the money going into the right places.

32:08

And, and they'll have at the wind at their back though. Hopefully they'll have messengers who have given them a mandate to make sure that this happens, but, um, but that's anyway, sad, sad leading up to the

32:18

Southern Baptist convention, but that's what you have now moving on. I promise we're going to get to some good news here.

32:24

I promise we will, but leading up to, um, uh, the, the next thing we're going to talk a little bit about this.

32:32

And I don't know if I got this in the right order. I wanted, um, meh, I guess so we were almost 35 minutes in.

32:40

So I'm going to probably be quick on this, but the Roy's report received last December, a letter, an email, and the email was from someone named

32:50

Tom Smith. Only it wasn't Tom Smith. It was Josh Bice, president of G3 ministries.

32:59

And Josh Bice proceeds to say that Vodie Bauckham is making a return trip to the U S and he's going to join

33:05

Tom Askel's church. Now I'm going to just say, I won't reveal everything, but I will say this. Uh, cause it's not for me to reveal.

33:12

I know at this point, Vodie Bauckham actually was not, he was looking at a couple of different options.

33:18

So it's interesting. Josh, Josh assumes this. I think he, there seems to be based on his

33:24

Anons, a problem he really had with Tom Askel and Vodie Bauckham specifically teaming up.

33:30

He really had a problem with Vodie Bauckham giving his star power to Tom Askel. Anyway, he just assumes

33:38

Vodie is going to be going to Tom Askel's church. A couple of things remain unanswered fault lines.

33:44

I have compelling evidence from sources informing me that major sections of his book were written by a ghostwriter. It's also believed that the ghostwriter sources material from James Lindsay, which is why

33:53

Vodie Bauckham was accused of plagiarism. Now I'll just say this.

34:03

There's only one person I know who has been accusing Vodie Bauckham of plagiarism since the ink was not even dry on the book.

34:12

It wasn't Josh Bice and I'll leave it there and I have no problem revealing more, but at this point

34:20

I would love to see Josh come clean about who this person was. Josh also, I posted this on X actually,

34:26

I don't have it queued up, but Josh also talked about the fact that he pulled out of the enemies within the church film.

34:33

Now I was there. I remember I was at G3, at least the pre -conference when those guys,

34:40

Judd Saul, Kerry Gordon were asking people to be part of their film and Josh Bice said yes. Josh Bice pulled out of the film.

34:48

He wasn't the only one who pulled out from that crowd, but he pulled out and he said he was highly encouraged.

34:55

That's what he said publicly. I was highly encouraged to pull out. Josh says things like this and who are these sources?

35:02

Who's the source? Who's the one who highly encourages them to do things? I do think that is worth asking that question and I do think it needs to come from Josh.

35:12

I think he needs to say something about this and this is, I think, part of, this is my contention.

35:20

This would be part of a true repentance in my mind, is if someone is giving you bad information because Josh later admits,

35:30

I'm going to read his statement, but if someone is giving you bad information, then that person is the one who's, they're doing damage too, right?

35:38

They're part of the, they were, you were in cahoots with them and to keep that private, to not reveal that and no, he has not revealed that to Voti.

35:53

I asked Voti. I think is wrong. That person needs to know who's slandering them from the shadows.

36:01

So that's all I'll say there. That's my own kind of shot across the bow here, but Voti Bakum, he says, experienced a major health crisis where he needed heart surgery to repair the problems.

36:11

A GoFundMe was stated, started from Tom Askell for Bakum's health needs. $1 .4

36:17

million was raised. The operation by a cash patient would have been no more than $300 ,000.

36:24

Now, I don't know about all Voti Bakum's medical expenses. I do know this though,

36:32

Voti did have a lawyer looking into all of this, or I should say managing all of this so that he didn't, he wasn't the one that was overseeing it.

36:42

So there was a medical trust that was established and he never got his hands on any of that money.

36:48

And you think, add up all the things that he had to go through. So this is someone that with, without insurance, all right, so paying cash for all of this, he had to get surgeries, two surgeries, nearly a month in the hospital at the

37:07

Mayo Clinic of all places, expensive place. The initial emergency department care, every test lab and procedure, the cardiac department offers, cardiac rehab, three years worth of followups.

37:20

Now I'm not, I'm not a medical guy, but I kind of suspect that was more than $300 ,000.

37:27

I'll be honest with you. I kind of suspect, I mean, when I go to the hospital, which isn't, it's been a while, but I'm shocked at the bill.

37:36

I'm shocked at how much things actually cost. I would doubt that this was $300 ,000, but anyway, you don't have to take it from me.

37:45

Josh Spice made a statement about this. In a past critique of Bode Backham and Founders Ministries, I made unsubstantiated and sinful remarks, including leading questions that lacked evidence and called them to question the good reputation of my brother,

37:56

Bode Backham. I was deceived by the deceitfulness of sin and allow myself to be led down a path that dishonored

38:04

God and unjustly maligned faithful men and ministries through an unrighteous, critical spirit cloaked in anonymity.

38:10

The details originally shared with me were without merit. So someone shared details and he was led down a path.

38:15

That's what he's saying. The accusations proved to be unfounded. The false claims should never have been used to criticize

38:21

Bode, Tom, Founders Ministries. This week I met privately with Bode and personally asked for his forgiveness as I plan to do with others in the days to come.

38:28

I also humbly ask for your forgiveness, recognizing that my actions have caused confusion and division. Josh Spice.

38:33

Now, I don't know. In fact, you know what, I should have looked this up before I started the podcast.

38:44

I don't think Josh has stepped down from ministry at Praise Mills Baptist Church.

38:52

I could be wrong. Maybe that's been updated, but as of late last week, he had not, from what

38:59

I understand. So maybe he has now though, because I'm looking at the website and under elders,

39:04

I do not see Josh Spice listed. So I don't know if that means that he stepped down or not.

39:09

I would assume it does. So I'm a little in the dark about this, but someone in the know said they would let me know if that happened and they haven't said anything to me.

39:16

So I hope that's the case. I hope that's the case. And I hope that Josh is truly repentant.

39:24

This has been one of the things though, that I think some people question. Tom Buck here. I don't speak for the

39:29

G3 board, but as a board member, I think that Josh Spice's statement is not true and an accurate representation of what actually transpired.

39:37

When Josh met with Bodhi, the email below was not yet discovered. So Josh has not yet repented to Bodhi for going to Roy's to get her to investigate him.

39:44

In fact, he never told Bodhi that he had done this wicked act. Furthermore, I believe this to be more of the ongoing minimization of Josh, of his sin.

39:52

Now I caught that too, by the way, when I was reading that, that he had been led down a path that he had, like someone gave him information.

39:59

Like he doesn't, he sort of takes responsibility, but there's also this, you know,

40:05

I know as a kid, when I got in trouble and wanted to blame shift. He lied about Bodhi misappropriating funds and lied in his accusation of plagiarism.

40:14

He claimed to have evidence for his lies. It is quite clear that Josh's actions were purely vindictive. Josh didn't merely criticize

40:21

Bodhi, he vindictively lied about him and slandered his name. I personally am grieved by Josh's lack of true repentance.

40:26

So I, I, this is something that I, I actually had a conversation with Tom Buck about last week because he was like, well, why did you say that you think

40:34

Josh is repentant? And I said, well, cause I read the G3 statement that they made. And it said that he had asked forgiveness and something like that.

40:41

And it sounded like repentance usually that I associate the two. And, um, apparently that's an open question.

40:47

So my hope is, and the reason I'm bringing this up is that in order to actually have true repentance, what, what was wrong needs to be made, right.

40:57

And it's more than just, and I'm sorry. And especially, and I'm sorry. And I, uh, was, you know,

41:04

I, it wasn't really me. I believe bad information or something like that. Um, and he does go farther than that.

41:10

I mean, he says the deceitfulness of sin. He was the deceitfulness of sin was upon him. So he does, he does go down.

41:16

So he does say some of the things that I would expect, but I do think at least,

41:21

I think some names need to be revealed or a name needs to be revealed here. Um, you publicly went out with bad information from a source that was giving you bad information, who was that person.

41:33

And if they are going to snipe Vodie from the shadows or anyone else, what's to keep them from continuing to do that.

41:40

Right. I think that would be one of the, one of the repentant things to do at least tell Vodie. Right. But there is some dispute about this.

41:47

So I needed to correct the record for myself as well and let you know, I don't have direct knowledge about what's going on down there.

41:54

And I shouldn't cause I'm outside of it to some extent, but, uh, I can't, I guess I can't tell you a hundred percent, whether Josh is repentance or not.

42:02

I don't know, but it sounds to me like if he's not, he's either on the path to it or he is very clever and at maneuvering.

42:10

It's one or the other time will tell right. Time will tell. And then of course the Roy's report, this is so damaging guys.

42:16

I don't even know if you realize how damaging this kind of thing is. Josh buys, buys, use fake accounts, email allegations about Vodie Bach under the

42:23

Roy's report, March 15th, 2025. So that's new. And they posted another article since then, there was another article today that dropped from the

42:31

Roy's report, continuing to try to hammer Vodie Bach for hospital bills and so forth.

42:37

So Josh Bice's, uh, sin is continuing to have an effect in the real world and being used by, uh,

42:46

I mean, look, I'm going to just call it what it is. The Roy's report can often put out stuff that's political hackery.

42:53

And that's, I think I'm not saying everything they do is that, but I don't read them for a reason. I can't trust what they say.

43:00

And this is being used for political hackery right here. Uh, at least this particular article, there's been some articles in the past that I thought were pretty decent.

43:07

This isn't one of them. All right. Well, I'm going to switch gears, but before I get to that, any of the other, any comments on any of this churches, the

43:16

Southern Baptist convention need to send their messengers to take back the SBC says Juan Andres Carrasco.

43:24

Um, so yeah, this is what William Wolf wants to do this. Uh, I told William that I would try to have him on my show.

43:30

I don't know if I can, I'm so busy the next two weeks, but we're going to try to get a mom for the SBC to talk about this kind of thing.

43:36

I have a different take on the SBC, but, um, look, if you can bring your friends and show up then and, and, you know, get someone at this point, you know, someone like a

43:46

Willie Rice, honestly, even though a few years ago he was on the other side, he might be the kind of guy.

43:52

I don't know if you guys saw this, but you're an SBC guy. You should check out what conservative Baptist, uh, leadership, um, what they're doing.

44:00

What is it? Conservative. Yeah. Um, conservative Baptist network, what they're doing with Willie rice.

44:06

They just did this episode, this podcast episode. And Willie is just, I'm so impressed.

44:11

There's very few people that were on the other side of things. I mean, he was calling January six, there's terrible people.

44:17

And he was, he was on the left. I thought, and then he's, he has totally switched and he is a, wants to root out the evil and the

44:29

Southern Baptist convention and the waste and the fraud and whatever else is there. Really good stuff.

44:34

Um, anyway, yeah. Check that out. If you're in the SBC and follow what they're doing. Uh, we also have here, let's see.

44:44

Um, Matt says my son's cancer treatment back in 2000 was 200 K. Well, it's back at that's over 20 years ago.

44:51

So for everything Votie Balkan went through is way over 500 K. Yeah. I would, I would suspect way over that.

45:03

Um, cosmic treason has some opinions on Tom Buck. So I think he thinks Tom Buck is a little too trusting and so forth.

45:10

If that's true though, then I would pay more attention to what Tom Buck is saying here. If he's too trusting and he does not trust

45:15

Josh, what does that mean? That, that, and I, like I said, I did have a conversation with Tom and there, he, he shared some stuff that it's not public yet.

45:26

Uh, but that I was like, Oh my goodness. Like it was just, I, I was shocked.

45:31

I don't get shocked by much, but I was shocked at the extent to which Josh, the level of deceptiveness and politicking and the, just the

45:39

Machiavellian character. It's a, it was, it's beyond the pale of my mind. Um, definitely agree with John that true repentance is a good point.

45:50

Cosmic treason. Thank you for bringing this up. That's true. Repentance would entail naming the source. This isn't like whistleblowing where the sources should be protected.

45:56

They should be exposed. Absolutely true. This is totally different than whistleblowing. And this is someone gave you bad information.

46:04

There's a deceitful spirit out there in the Christian world saying things about people that are not true. And, uh, if it's the person that I'm thinking of, they've done the same thing to me.

46:15

Um, I don't know what vice's issue with could be something inside, something inside baseball and the

46:22

SBC. It seems, uh, no, I think it's just G3 and founders are in competition.

46:28

I I'm serious. I was telling the Bible study that I lead last night. I said, look, you got to understand something about the reformed evangelical world.

46:36

It's like high school girls. He really, and the thing, things get rearranged all the time and who's on, who's good terms and good side.

46:44

And depending on what dress you wear to the ball, it can really change things. It really is no more complicated than that.

46:50

I don't believe, uh, Josh wanted to run a ministry that he wanted to, to have.

46:56

There's a, there's a very limited group of people. It's a small group of people that attend these conferences, but that they have money to go to a conference.

47:03

So think about how much it costs to go to a conference. You got to fly in. If you're from out of state, you got to fly in or drive in to Atlanta.

47:10

You got to get a hotel there for three or four days. You might have to get hotels on the way there.

47:16

Once you're there, you got to pay for food somehow. You got to pay for the conference registration and then whatever books you get, you get, and you're going to get books.

47:25

You got to pay for that. You are not walking out of there probably without paying over a thousand dollars.

47:31

That might be on the cheap side for some people traveling from a distance. It takes an affluence or someone funding you to go to one of these conferences for pastors who go, it's, you know, a church has to be behind that and see it as beneficial.

47:47

Um, my conferences that I run, the ones I run, uh, speaking of which music and masculinity .com,

47:54

uh, in September, we're going to do another men's retreat. I charge cost because I know how expensive it is.

48:01

And even that is hard for the guys who, but the guys who come are the guys who normally wouldn't be going to conferences because it's outside of their, their, their costs.

48:11

So guys who come do tend to usually have a little more money. And if you have other conferences, you have

48:17

Ligonier, you got MacArthur's, you know, shepherds, you got ask goals and, uh, founders.

48:23

These guys are, you have a shared audience. So they're going to come to that. They only, people can only go to so many conferences, so they have to choose.

48:31

And if Bodhi Bacchum, who's a very popular figure is at one of those conferences and not the other, then which one are you going to go to?

48:39

Thus, why Josh Bice would be upset that Bodhi is going to founders. Bodhi is not going to be speaking at G3 as much.

48:45

He'll be speaking with Tom Askew at founders that cuts into margins. It cuts into, uh, attendees and warm seats at a conference.

48:53

That's how it works. And there is an incredible amount of drama and be, and all the rest in that world.

48:59

I'm just telling you, it's ridiculous to be quite honest. People take way too seriously. Uh, I, I honestly am utterly disgusted with that kind of stuff, but that is how it is.

49:10

Not saying every single person in the conference world is like that, but I'm just saying that dynamic is present.

49:15

Unfortunately, the market forces do not leave as you enter a Christian conference.

49:22

Uh, all right. Yeah, that's disappointing. Yeah, I agree. That is disappointing. Um, okay, well let's, let's switch gears here and what did

49:30

I want to talk about next? Okay. I want to get to some, yeah, we're going to do some good things here, some good news, but let's, let's do the one thing that's kind of,

49:40

I just wanted to get my two cents on this and then we'll move to some good news. Cause they got a bunch of good news to share with you. Okay. So, uh, let's talk about this.

49:47

This happened yesterday. No, yeah, yesterday I listened to it. It's a R and McIntyre and Doug Wilson on the

49:55

R and McIntyre show. And the title of the episode is adopting the terms of the enemy. I would encourage all of y 'all to listen to it.

50:03

If you are interested in netter or neoter, no enemies on the right, no enemies to the right, that principle and how it's applied and all that kind of thing.

50:11

There's some good points, both men made on the podcast. I tend to be more where Aaron is and not that there, some people are calling this a debate and that aren't really showed

50:20

Doug. And I didn't sense that at all. Just go listen to it. They are actually having a very reasonable gentlemanly discussion.

50:26

And, uh, I think they had more common ground than anything else in that discussion. I actually thought it was really, I was encouraged to see it.

50:32

It was really prudent. Um, I actually, I, I have been somewhat critical of Doug Wilson with some of the ways that he's navigated things like, uh, antisemitism, for example,

50:43

I, it's a, I actually told him, uh, that wouldn't, can we use another term?

50:51

Can, can you describe what you're objecting to using a different term? Because this is the term that the left uses to bash all of us just for having even

51:00

Christian beliefs. Uh, so this is a problem. We don't want to use the left's frames. We don't want to use the left's hammer.

51:06

We want to try to avoid that. We want to, when there's a real problem, we want to keep it in house. And I recognize there is such a thing as sitting against people because of their ethnic makeup.

51:16

There is such a thing as hating people because they are different in, in racial ways or something like that.

51:22

We need, we can maybe just say what I just said. I mean, who could just say you should never sit against someone because, uh, and use as a justification.

51:29

They are a different skin color race. What I mean, skin color is kind of,

51:36

I've actually never seen that used. Um, usually when, when people are denoting skin color, they're talking about deeper realities, but, but let's say it's shallow, you know, it's that, or just different culture, whatever it is, you shouldn't hate those people.

51:50

You shouldn't, uh, you should, you should still love them, especially if they're in proximity to you. You still have to love your neighbor and that kind of thing.

51:56

Right? So yes, there are people who are genuinely nefarious and do have animus and hatred in their hearts.

52:06

And they do want to do horrible things. They, they don't see a problem with murder, uh, against,

52:11

I I'm serious. I I'm shocked just as much as some of you are on this, but I, I, I had, I, there's so many experiences now on X, but it's mostly on X.

52:19

Um, but I had an experience recently with someone who was justifying the Holocaust and I'm like, you know, babies in the woods getting mowed down by machine guns.

52:29

Like, is that, well, they would grow up to be enemies of white people. And I'm like, those babies, they were in on this

52:35

Jewish conspiracy you're talking about. This guy was dead serious and find out. Yeah. I mean, it's reformed

52:41

Christian type. I'm like, how is that possible? But it is, and it is a growing thing.

52:46

And there does need to be, I think some Gates, uh, to prevent people like that from attaining any kind of influence or power.

52:55

Um, now here's the thing, Doug, I think Doug Wilson in the anti -ag declaration, the way he's navigated this, in my opinion, hasn't been prudent.

53:03

And I've told him that, and I've, I can be honest with him and he is actually quite, I consider him to be somewhat of a mature person on these things.

53:11

You're actually able to have a discussion with them. I've never not been able to do that. Even on the concupiscence debate,

53:16

I've been able to have a discussion with him and he's very amicable. Uh, he actually tries to navigate the issues you're talking about.

53:23

And that is one thing I do respect about him. He doesn't just start denouncing you. I've never gotten the sense that he's, um, going to be underhanded.

53:31

He's pretty honest and public about his issues, which I really appreciate. And that's kind of how I try to be, uh, with people.

53:38

I try to be honest with them in person about if I have an issue and then if I'm going to go after it publicly or whatever, um, you know, it's, especially if they're a friend, you know,

53:48

I definitely have to tell them if they're a friend, but I, I, I, I strive myself to be like that because I do think that, uh, that says something about your character when you're

53:59

Josh Bice and you're, it's just slithery. We are supposed to be as wise as serpents, but I don't think that means we spread falsehoods.

54:07

We slander, uh, we try to just rip people down in, by ambushing them without giving opportunities to repent and that kind of thing.

54:16

So anyway, anyway, all that to say, this is a good episode, but I wanted to give my two cents on it because Aaron, Aaron is talking about in this episode, if you want to see the difference,

54:27

Aaron is saying that we shouldn't give oxygen to these nefarious elements.

54:33

I agree. There's these nefarious elements, even on the right politically, we shouldn't give them oxygen. We shouldn't. And I agree with Aaron on that.

54:39

We sh we shouldn't, uh, elevate their profiles because then we're actually creating the monster that we fear.

54:45

So, and, and, and Doug Wilson's kind of agreed with that, but he had a different, he actually thought that, um, the threat is worse than Aaron's making it out to be.

54:55

So I think they have more of a prudential disagreement there, but there was, there was something that came out halfway through this discussion that I want to talk about.

55:04

So Doug Wilson is saying that there's a certain podcast that advocates neo -Nazi type stuff,

55:11

Holocaust denial stuff. Um, I guess hatred along ethnic lines and these kinds of things.

55:18

Anyway, that this podcast has affected men in his church and then in his denomination.

55:25

And so it's a bigger issue for him. And he felt the need to go after it. Our ends come back to that was, well, if you're going to do that, then these people aren't your real enemy politically, because these people are not the ones that are going to lock you up.

55:42

They have no institutional power. He's right about that. Um, now there's two things though, Doug is a pastor also.

55:48

So you have to take that into account. There's a spiritual thing. I'm seeing guys get taken into these philosophies and ideologies and not wanting to see that, but on a political level,

55:58

I think Aaron's right about this, right? It's like, you know, some kook who's ranting and raving about something that has, they can't threaten you or your family.

56:06

Why would you even give them the time of day politically? That does make sense when you have someone else who, who does want to threaten you and your family, but aren't said something interesting.

56:15

He goes, um, he says they can be, there's people who can be cobelligerence.

56:21

I'm not sure. I think he was talking about that particular, uh, kind of like your

56:26

Nick Fuentes types people, your Andrew Tate people. Those are the people that they were named. And those are people that,

56:34

Hey, they're, they're not, they have some of the same enemies that you have. So they could be cobelligerence and let them do their thing.

56:41

You do your thing. And if you need to address it in your church, address it in your church, but expending the public political capital to go after them, that just doesn't seem like a wise, prudent thing.

56:53

And this is where I started thinking about this. Um, here's the difference

56:59

I think between cobelligerency and what, what Doug Wilson was talking about.

57:04

And this is something I hope they talk about more. And this is something that some of us need to be thinking about. If the problems that I'm describing exist in your churches or communities, it's one thing to have cobelligerency, but in cobelligerency, there's a distinction going on.

57:19

There's particularity. So think about it this way. Uh, Abraham is going to, uh, go to war and he, he bands together with other

57:33

Kings to, to fight. They don't agree on everything, but they're, they have a common enemy.

57:38

So they are distinct. Uh, think about world war two, you know, we're America sides with the

57:43

Russian. Well, first Germany sides with the Russians, you know, so there are cobelligerents, even though they didn't agree.

57:49

And then America sides with the Russians, they're cobelligerents, even though they agree, but they're distinct. Uh, think about the different levels of policing.

57:55

You have state County, local, there's distinctions there, but they might have the same goal, the same they're working on the same crime or crime families.

58:02

These families are all distinct. No, one's confusing them with each other. That is different than subversive elements coming into your group and then trying to influence it and take power.

58:13

That's not cobelligerency. That's a hostile takeover. And that's something that I think, so you have to maintain the integrity of your movement or your church or your denomination or your group or your family, even you, that's the thing.

58:29

And I think that is worth exploring more because cobelligerency does make sense.

58:36

Uh, we're cobelligerents with Catholics, right? Protestants and Catholics on the abortion issue. Does that mean Protestants and Catholics are the same?

58:42

No. But what if you had Catholics coming into your church and saying, we agree on abortion, therefore, uh,

58:48

I don't know that that's such a primary issue. You know, what makes what's a better pro -life position or what's makes more sense of the pro -life position, the

58:58

Catholic faith. And they start trying to proselytize in your church, Catholicism, right?

59:03

That would be a little bit of a different issue. And I think that's the situation that's going on. And they didn't really talk about that, but, um,

59:10

I told my supporters, my Patreon supporters, I was going to mention that because I think that's where the conversation needs to go.

59:16

And then the other thing, and this is sort of connected to this is if gatekeeping is bad, right?

59:22

If, um, if keeping people out of your movement, because they're also against the left, let's say, and so expending energy to keep your movement pure and to keep them out, if, if that becomes bad or like something you shouldn't do at all.

59:39

So you should, I guess you shouldn't have gates or if you do have them, you just keep it really private. Then here's the question

59:45

I have, um, what happens? How are the gatekeepers treated? The people, so the people who want to gatekeep out nefarious elements, they want, uh, walls around their movement to maintain its purity.

59:58

Um, and, and, and that could even be something like what we already watched today with like church of the

01:00:03

Nazarene. They want, we want gates. We don't want these people that don't agree with us to be in our denomination. We don't want to be defunding these people to train our pastors, right?

01:00:10

We want gates that's gatekeeping. And this is something I've come to.

01:00:16

This is, you cannot have a situation where there's no gatekeeping. It's undeniable because once, if your principle becomes, we're not going to gatekeep that actually becomes eventually a way to gatekeep because then you keep, you gatekeep the gatekeepers.

01:00:32

Like, so someone who doesn't want these elements in your movement, they get smeared because they're, uh, they're wasting energy or they're, you know, whatever it is.

01:00:42

And I've, I've seen this dynamic. I'm not going to name names because I could very easily do it, but I have seen guys even go after me because they think that I'm, even though I'm broad and I'm vague to some extent,

01:00:56

I am doing gatekeeping. And my response is you don't have a movement without gates.

01:01:03

You need to have a positive agenda. And if someone's taking away from that or threatening that you have to think through the integrity of your movement, if they're going to be cobelligerence and off somewhere else doing their thing and you can share resources or whatever, that's different, but, or, or not even share resources, just leave them alone.

01:01:19

And you can both take shots at the same thing. But if they're, if they're trying to, to set up a decoy and say,

01:01:26

I'm part of your thing, that's different. You, you, you may have to assess whether that's a threat or not.

01:01:34

And what happens if you don't want to expend energy in that area is you start getting suspicious of the gate of the people who do want the walls.

01:01:43

And so you create another wall without knowing it. You'll, you'll talk about someone publicly to say that you won't talk about them.

01:01:49

Like it is, it is a way to still do gatekeeping in the name of not gatekeeping.

01:01:55

All right. So that's the problem that I see on some, in some portions of the dissident right, that we have to figure out.

01:02:02

And I think the way to figure it out is, and this is why I'm doing my series for the patrons on conservative great books, because we need a positive vision.

01:02:12

That's the answer. If you have a positive Christian conservative vision that unfortunately so many of us need to be reintroduced to because it's been neglected.

01:02:22

But if we have a vision for the good, the true, the beautiful, for what we should reach for, and then an agenda, a basic one for how we're going to get there, that ends up being your principle that ends up being your gate that ends up being the, this is where we're going.

01:02:37

If you're not interested in that, then you can do your own thing somewhere else, but this is what we're doing.

01:02:43

So you got to go somewhere else, right? I think that's what we need to do. And I think, and maybe that's where we're going to go.

01:02:51

I think maybe I'm actually pretty positive about some things that I'll show you in a moment. I do think that on a broad national level, there are some really good things happening.

01:02:59

I was actually just with the guy who coordinates for the Florida turning point USA turning point

01:03:05

USA. I mean, I told him this, I said in 2020, they had rainbow flags at their booth. Now they would never do that.

01:03:11

And you know, I, when I posted the clip from Charlie Kirk in 2019, supporting gay marriage,

01:03:17

I don't think Charlie Kirk would never say that today. There's things changing.

01:03:23

People are realizing Joe Rogan's reading his Bible. Like he's going to church. What's going on?

01:03:30

Something is happening. And if we recover a positive vision and we have good leaders, men of virtue that are tested, that's the main thing.

01:03:38

Virtuous men that can take the helm and really take this positive vision, articulate it well.

01:03:45

I think JD Vance, though he's Catholic, I think he is articulating a pretty good, broad American positive vision.

01:03:53

I think we get places and the people who aren't interested in that kind of thing, we can, it's easy to see the contrast and yes, we can get, keep them out and they can do their own thing.

01:04:04

They can, if they want to be a competitor, that's fine. But yes, the left is the big bully on the block.

01:04:10

Even still during the Trump administration, they are on the political level. They are the threat. They are what we have to go after, but we go after them with a positive vision.

01:04:19

We, they have their utopian vision and we have our realistic vision for what the good life is.

01:04:24

And ours actually can come into fruition. It's not a pipe dream. I think that's the way forward.

01:04:30

So I was really blessed by listening to the podcast. I think you will be too. It's just, it's a going back and forth and just trying to articulate these things.

01:04:37

But these are conversations that need to happen because we're in a quandary right now on the right in a way, um, somewhat just because there's so many different elements that have different solutions and different ways of assessing the problem we're in and they see the left in different ways.

01:04:54

They, they might all oppose the left, but they have their different gripes, you know, a libertarian and a fascistic kind of neo -Nazi guy and a paleo conservative guy, you know, and just kind of your ordinary

01:05:08

MAGA guy. And you're, you know, go down the line of all the different, your griper over here, like all these different elements, they can be very, very different and very different assessments about what the problems are and how to solve them.

01:05:22

Um, and so I think that's the important thing for Christians who are conservative. We just have to have a firm in our mind, the source of our solutions, right?

01:05:32

We're, we're Bible first. We are, and we also come from this tradition. We do have an

01:05:37

Anglo Protestant tradition that we can tap back into that's worked out a lot of these kinks. So I'll take any questions on that.

01:05:43

I know some of that, if you're not up on some of the kind of new right discourse, this might sound a little confusing and I'm happy to clarify anything, but I wanted to just say that because I thought that, um,

01:05:54

I wanted to recommend that to you because I thought it was a really good discussion. So, uh, let's see if there's any, uh, questions or cries about rage on that.

01:06:03

And then I'll get to some good news and we'll end the podcast. Can I get a link for Doug? Well, yeah, I can't send you a link directly right now, but if you go to my

01:06:10

YouTube channel, you can find Doug Wilson's discussion with Jared Moore on concupiscence. So yes, you can get that.

01:06:19

Uh, cosmic treason said Doug defined woke very well in that it refers to critical theory specifically are, and also pointed out that noticing oppression in South Africa isn't sufficient to define you as woke.

01:06:28

Yeah. That was actually one of the best parts of it. They really go after James Lindsay hard and I think completely expose him and he needs to be exposed.

01:06:36

So I was really glad to see that. Uh, cobelligerency with someone like Nick Fuentes is a dangerous union. Fuentes is like Ali, uh,

01:06:44

Ali Alexander, who had accusations of inappropriate liaisons with young men. Likewise, Tate is scandalous.

01:06:50

Oh yeah, totally agree. Those guys are terrible. Nick Fuentes and, um, and, and, and someone like an

01:06:56

Andrew Tate. Yeah. Those guys are awful. Like care it's character. It's virtue. I'm beginning.

01:07:01

I'm on this virtue kick. I've been on it for a few months. Um, that's my number one thing.

01:07:07

Now, when I look at guys and like, are they, I don't care if you have all the solutions and good ideas, if you don't have virtue, who cares?

01:07:15

Who cares? Right. Um, cobelligerency with, okay.

01:07:21

So let's see. I totally agree with you now. The thing is, do you want to spend your energy though, going after Andrew Tate when he's not the one that's going to lock up your family, right?

01:07:31

If he's not the one that's going to tax you to death, he's not like, he doesn't have any institutional. He's just a guy online that's giving his opinions, but men do listen to it.

01:07:39

And if you're a pastor, then you better know what he's saying. And yeah, I've, I've handled,

01:07:45

I've handled, I've, I have helped, tried to help guys who have gone down the black hole of Andrew Tate in my church and honestly, the stone choir black hole.

01:07:53

I have, uh, had to navigate that stuff too. And, and on a ministry level, you can't really escape that.

01:07:59

That's, I'm not saying every church has this, but if you're in a church and you have guys that are going down these black holes and they are black holes, then you do need to address it.

01:08:09

Um, let's see here. Karen says, I'm thankful for your podcast, explaining false doctrine of social justice and Maoist and communism.

01:08:17

You know what? I, you just made me thank you, Karen, for that. You just made me think of something I needed to explain to some people have criticized me.

01:08:24

I get it from, from multiple angles, but there's, I I'd say usually more liberal minded folks who've criticized me and said, like classical liberals, that is that I should be going after neo -Nazi types harder.

01:08:38

And then I'm late to this and that I'm, and I'm like, guys, first of all, on Saturday morning,

01:08:43

I just, I found this the other day I'm posting it because I wrote it in 2021. And it's, it sounds exactly the way that I sound now on all this stuff.

01:08:51

I talk about wokeness. I talk about neo -Nazi stuff in the same thing. And I draw the ideological connection and no one batted an eye back then, but today like that's a dog, man, you can't say that.

01:09:03

So anyway, I'm, I'm posting it again on Saturday. We'll see if it gets some cries of outrage, but here's the thing.

01:09:09

You got to understand this guys. I have taken, I have had a lot of thought about this.

01:09:14

I put in a lot of time and I've had a lot of discussions about it. And I've asked people, do you want me to go down this hole?

01:09:21

You know, I've, I have read some things I could read more. I could brush up back on it. I had Holocaust class in grad school.

01:09:26

I had a world war II class. Like, do you want me to be the guy that now, just like I did with the woke guys, is that going to be my next book?

01:09:34

You know, is that going to be my thing? And the vast majority of people that I talked to that I consider wise say no way don't, don't focus on that at all.

01:09:42

That's not the giant. That's not what, and I agree. I usually, that is my, that's how

01:09:49

I feel about it. But there are people who really want me to do that. And I'm thinking, aren't there others

01:09:54

God can raise up that can really from a conservative angle, go after this. And there turns out there are probably, there are not many.

01:10:02

I think there are some though, but they're not the main threat. They just aren't. They don't have any institutional power.

01:10:08

I asked a friend of mine in Virginia about this. Who's big in the young Republicans has been for years.

01:10:14

I said, do you see any of this coming into the young Republicans? He goes, no, what I see coming into the young Republicans are a bunch of gay affirming pro abortion people.

01:10:21

He goes, those, the people you're talking about are usually online. There are nones. They have to be anonymous and they're, they don't, they can't coordinate except to do

01:10:31

Twitter ratios. They're not going to actually take power. I said, well, that may, I don't know. Some people are saying that that could happen.

01:10:37

That could, but I tend to think that my friend is probably right. At least in the short term here. And so is that worth time?

01:10:43

Right. With the woke stuff, it was taking over everything. It's taking over your church. It was taken over every institution.

01:10:50

I named names. It needed to happen. Right. And I'll blame anyone for naming names, you know, in, on this issue either, but I named names on that.

01:10:59

And, um, with this though, with the bio reductionists and stuff, I just don't, um,

01:11:05

I want, if I'm going to say anything, it's probably going to be on X and it's going to be an attempt to counter signal the message of those guys, not elevate their platform by saying their name a lot.

01:11:18

That's just, that's my gut instinct on that. It, they just don't have the, they're not worth it.

01:11:24

That's, that's how I look at it, but helping guys who are going down these, these holes, uh, navigate them a little bit.

01:11:31

Yeah, that probably is worth it. So that, if you wanted to know that what is, what explains why

01:11:36

I handled one, one way and I'm handling one a different way a little bit. Uh, all right.

01:11:43

Simply Ashley says, Joel Webben talked about co -belligerence when chatting with him at his conference. And that was such a helpful framework to start thinking through who to ally with politically and spiritually.

01:11:53

Oh, Oh, I think as opposed to spiritually. Yeah. Yeah. Politically is different than spiritually.

01:11:59

So yeah, there can be people politically that you would, uh, or in war that you are on the same side, shooting in the same direction on you agree.

01:12:07

We're not going to shoot each other, but that's not the same as a spiritual connection. Um, let's see here.

01:12:16

I'm trying to get to, looks like there's some other questions that don't, don't have to do with what I'm talking about now.

01:12:21

So I'm trying to get to the relevant ones. Realistically, I cosmic treason says,

01:12:29

I think we're not trying to go back to Lockian classical liberalism or Berkey and conservatism, but forward to a new

01:12:34

Christian viewpoint that takes the best things we learned from the past. That would be pretty Berkey and conservative though, to take the best things you learned from the past.

01:12:42

And I do think we're in a different situations than Burke was in, no doubt about it. He had, there was a more of a high trust society.

01:12:49

England still had hierarchy. Um, there was more stability and he wanted to prevent something from happening there in America.

01:12:56

We're kind of talking about this stuff from the ruins and that does mean it's a different conversation, but I do think having the background in Burke, cause his principles are still,

01:13:05

I think on point what he, um, his wisdom I think is still on point.

01:13:12

So, um, that's why I think it's good to go back to Burke and to be inspired. And so, so much of what he says is relevant to today, but yes, he is in a different framework and we do have to look ahead.

01:13:21

Uh, we have a different set of problems a little bit, and we do have a technology now that changes things and we are post -industrial revolution.

01:13:30

So it's going to be a little different. And hopefully the series is going to help us take the best from the conservative tradition.

01:13:40

So, uh, the big threat is feminism. Someone else says it's the Jews. Um, right.

01:13:46

It's, it's gotta be only one thing, right? Everything traces back to just one thing. Uh, remember

01:13:54

TGC just had 7 ,000 people at their conference. The liberal drift is still a threat. Oh, I do remember.

01:14:00

Yeah. That's, I talked about it. That's, that's my point. Yeah. And thank you, Matt. Thank you for, yeah, you know, I said that. So yeah, absolutely.

01:14:07

They're filling up stadiums or rooms that no one on the new Christian, right.

01:14:12

And Christianity is able to fill, not even come close to that. Any thought on whether these

01:14:18

Anons stirring white supremacy trouble is some, someone like Bice it's all

01:14:23

Bice, right. It's all Bice. I don't know. I hear all sorts of explanations. You, there's no way to know with people who are anonymous.

01:14:29

Uh, that's, I don't, I, yeah, I've already, I had a whole conversation with Jerry Doris.

01:14:35

You can go check out about anonymity and, um, you can only get so far analyzing that dynamic.

01:14:40

It's, it's, I don't know. It could be from, you could have someone from other countries that are, you know, being deployed to try to stir up trouble.

01:14:48

I know from just my own study of history that, uh, the Japanese did this, the

01:14:53

Russians did this. I mean, our foreign enemies, uh, typically want to break things down along racial lines in the

01:14:58

United States and foment disorder and dissatisfaction and violence. That's how they work.

01:15:05

Um, a Chinese communist party, uh, was putting efforts into trying to foment the black lives matter stuff in 2020,

01:15:12

Trevor Loudon traced a lot of that. And so this does benefit our enemies quite a bit. So is that true that it's,

01:15:19

I don't think so. Cause I've, I don't think it's all just those people. There are people I've met in real life who are saying those kinds of things that are

01:15:26

American, but, but yeah, who knows? Who knows? Um, I seen

01:15:32

Mick daily review says I've seen arguments from the very antisemitic folks and, uh, TIC, I don't,

01:15:38

TIK, I don't know who that is. Does a good job taking them apart. Unfortunately, blaming the Jews is always attempting more.

01:15:43

So even for well -educated Christians sometimes, well, here's what you got to understand about, uh, the Jews, quote unquote, this, this came up in my

01:15:50

Edmund Burke talk too. Cause Edmund Burke talks about, and he says the Jews, I don't think he says the, it's just the

01:15:56

Jews twice in his book and what he's talking about. And it's in a list, by the way, he's not ideological or rigid about like, oh, there it's all them.

01:16:06

He views them as one element along with, uh, trade unions and lawyers and to try to think who else he goes after, um, moneyed interests that, uh, financiers, uh, speculators.

01:16:19

So these are all people and Jews as part of this, uh, from Edmund Burke standpoint that do not have a high sense of loyalty to the country that they are in.

01:16:30

That's why they get brought up in these discussions. They have an in -group preference typically, um, for their, and most, and everyone does actually, everyone should for their own people, but Jewish people, since they're in smaller numbers and they are in, uh, countries in which they're guests generally, uh, or they, you know, some of them do assimilate and so forth.

01:16:50

That's actually the story of the Sephardic Jews who came to America. They basically assimilated. There were like 2000 of them in 1780.

01:16:56

And they were mostly in the South. They were in places like Charleston and Philadelphia to a lesser extent, but they assimilated.

01:17:02

And for the most part, and, um, very different than the Ashkenazi Jews who came, uh, two centuries, uh, or, you know, a century later, depending on the wave of immigration.

01:17:13

And so, um, the, there, there are different, I know it's hard to believe, but there are, it's not just the

01:17:19

Jews. There are different kinds of Jews. It's not. And when people bring up Talmudic Judaism, I'm thinking, I'm like, what do you, I mean, I, there's large populations, not far from me of, uh, uh, they're

01:17:29

Ashkenazi, but they are Hasidic basically. And I've been in their communities. I've been in their houses doing repair work in the past.

01:17:36

And, you know, they ha the Talmud is all over their wall and it's, it's a, it's traditions that they, and the way most of them, uh, from my conversations with them, the way that they feel about it is it's a tradition that they follow, but a lot of them are very into, they all like Donald Trump because he's, uh, he's got money.

01:17:58

He's got wealth. In fact, I think it was Monroe, New York, where there's a huge population of Hasidics.

01:18:03

They voted like crazy majority for Donald Trump. Uh, they, the, and that's, that's another thing.

01:18:09

Like the Hasidics tend to be different. The religious ones tend to be different than the more secular ones who are totally overwhelmingly voting, uh, liberal.

01:18:17

Um, so there there's nuances all within even that discussion, but in general, for Jewish people in general, they tend to be high achievers, uh, and they tend to have an in -group preference for their own people.

01:18:29

Those two things do threaten a Christian Republic. If the numbers are high enough, if you have people that gain influence and they don't have

01:18:38

Christian views or values, and they get into places like Hollywood and banking and government and their lawyers and these kinds of things, and they have a preference for other people who think like them, then you are going to get anti -Christian secular kind of thought.

01:18:56

And I think that's, that's really the thing. And, you know, and I haven't really, maybe, I don't know if I've talked about it in these in depth, as much as this,

01:19:03

I wasn't planning for this podcast to go this direction, but I did a whole thing on this topic, like, uh, more than a year ago,

01:19:10

I think. And I just deleted it because I was like, what's the point? I'm not, you can't, you're not making any friends by talking about any of this, but I think it probably is prudent at this point for me to at least say that, that there, there are reasons that Christians would look at Hindus, um,

01:19:29

Jewish people, I'm talking about religious Jews or, or secular Jews, so non -Christians. Okay. Let me just be clear.

01:19:35

Non, people who are Jewish that are non -Christian, um, Muslims, all these people threaten

01:19:41

Christianity if they get power in a country. So in 1780, it wasn't a problem when you had 2000

01:19:48

Jews in the country, two or 3000, they did not, they could go to their synagogue, but they weren't, they weren't in any kind of real power.

01:19:55

They didn't influence, uh, in anti -Christian ways. They didn't undermine Christianity.

01:20:01

So you can have tall tolerated minorities in a country that's possible, but once your leadership class starts to change and is influenced by people who are not

01:20:11

Christians, that's when you start having problems. Uh, and you, cause the character of your country or your region or your locality changes.

01:20:19

So I think that's what some people, and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and there's a spectrum here, but some of the people who have concerns along the lines of there's people who aren't

01:20:28

Christians who will gain power. That's, that's where they're coming from. And obviously the answer to that is

01:20:34

Christians need to get influence and gain power. That is the answer. It's always been the answer, um, to, to just get upset about it.

01:20:42

And then to do nothing about it is about the worst thing you can possibly do. That's why I'm, I'm totally against rage baiting.

01:20:47

I'm totally against just talk about this dynamic and then don't give any kind of solution.

01:20:53

Your, your biggest solution is Christians need to be competitive in these areas. Christians, evangelicals in particular are very underrepresented in law and medicine and science and, uh, college professorships and all kinds of areas where they should be influential.

01:21:09

They are not. So, um, that, that might mean taking a look at education and, and, uh, trying to be higher achievers.

01:21:17

I think homeschooling by the way is, is one of the ways to do that, but, um, having good solid curriculums that really challenge.

01:21:23

And anyway, I'm waxing long that, and I don't need to be, cause we need to end the podcast, but, uh,

01:21:28

I need to get some, some of your other, uh, comments on this. I think just to say one last thing on the other end of the spectrum, you definitely have guys that every single problem that seems to erupt, it's always the

01:21:40

Jewish people. It's always, and it's, it's such a, just, it's, it's not even a nuanced, uh, way to look at it.

01:21:47

It is literally just the Jews. And I get the impression sometimes it's from people who haven't had a lot of experience with Jewish people.

01:21:55

And it's, um, I just, the other day there was something on Facebook where it was, it was some clip of James white, where he was saying like, he was talking about a group of people.

01:22:05

He wasn't talking about Jewish people. He was saying that, you know, they're pro transgender and they're against humanity and they're, you know, and there was all these guys dunking on it saying that's the

01:22:13

Jews, that's the Jews. And I, I just comment and say, well, there's more than one answer to this. And I was thinking,

01:22:19

I mean, I live in the, I'm, I'm on the cusp of the Northeast here. I mean, come on, you know, that we had a revolutionary movement before large immigration of Jews ever came to this country or other groups that have contributed to, um, revolutionary thinking.

01:22:32

We, we, you know, we call them, uh, call, you know, you call them Yankees, you call them

01:22:38

Unitarians, whatever, but, uh, whatever the Puritans became, that was your first revolutionary movement really.

01:22:45

Uh, and then in the 19th century, that's all those reform movements, uh, the, the anti -masonry, the feminism, the, uh, prohibition, the, uh, the, um, uh, abolition societies, you know, the, the go down the list, all of these things, it all came out of the

01:23:02

Northeast. It all came out of a bunch of Anglo people really. And so anyway, um, today you, you drive around the

01:23:08

Northeast, you see all these old churches where people used to go, they just have trans flags on them and they're empty. And you're like, what happened?

01:23:14

What happened? Even during Christmas, you know, it's hard to find nativity scenes or even Christmas trees, but you'll find the trans flags.

01:23:21

So anyway, that was my point. And boy, I got like piled on for that. It was like, you know, it's like Jews is the only answer you can have.

01:23:28

And I'm like, I don't know, man, there's a whole bunch of, uh, places where there's not a Jewish person in sight and they seem pretty pro, uh, transgenderism and anti -humanity.

01:23:37

So, so you don't want to be ideological about these things. You want to just, you want to look at things realistically, you want to actually assess threats and there's usually more than one.

01:23:47

And you, you want to assess, assess the level of threats and then assess solutions and realistic ones at that.

01:23:54

That's a prudent person. That's, that's a Christian who wants to actually make a difference in his lifetime, which is just a breath.

01:24:00

And in my lifetime, which is just a breath. I want to, I want as many Jews to come to the

01:24:06

Lord as can come to the Lord. Um, so that means evangelism efforts. I want to,

01:24:12

I'm saying the ones that aren't Christians already. I want to see them use those who are high achievers to use their power for good.

01:24:19

I want to see Christians train their children to excel, to pursue excellence and to be capable of wielding power for the good of their neighbor and not just selfish ambition.

01:24:31

I want them to be good bankers and financiers, not because they love money, but because they know that they can do so much good by giving it away by helping their neighbors, uh, by, by even the, just the power that that brings.

01:24:45

Now it's very hard to love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. You gotta be very hard. You can be very careful going into this, but that's, that's who

01:24:51

I am. Okay. Uh, that, that's the, what I see as the practical Christian approach to these things and black pilling all day about, um, about this is to me just counterproductive.

01:25:05

Okay. No one ever discusses Jewish space lasers though. Yeah, that's true. How we should maybe have a whole podcast on it.

01:25:11

Yeah. Oh, now, now I've opened a can of worms. Uh, trust me, the

01:25:17

Jews in New York city are different than those at Western Kentucky says Clayton. Oh, I believe it. Are there Jews in Western Kentucky?

01:25:23

I haven't been around Western Kentucky a lot. I'm assuming there are, um, you look at, you know, obviously

01:25:30

I'm known for kind of being the Southern history guy too. And, uh, you look at the Confederacy, there was a lot of Jewish people who gained, uh, prominent roles, you know, and they were

01:25:41

Sephardic Jewish people, um, but they were very loyal to their region.

01:25:46

And, um, anyway, I don't, uh, I, I, I think, I think that's why some people have a problem.

01:25:52

I had one guy tell me that he didn't like heritage America. He didn't like that term because, and basically I think comes down to, because there's on ramps for Jewish people and black people and non -whites because they're part of that story.

01:26:04

And I'm thinking, well, the story, the story is a, it is a story of a shared experience in a place over time and the struggles associated with it.

01:26:15

So yeah, I mean, there are, uh, sometimes tolerated minority groups who are part of the story.

01:26:24

Uh, Quakers are part of the story. I'm not a big fan of the Quakers. I'm going to be honest with you. I don't like their theology.

01:26:29

I don't particularly care for, uh, their, their view of, uh, you know, violence and that kind of thing.

01:26:37

I mean, I want people who are going to fight for their country, but Hey, they're part of the American story. Right. All right.

01:26:43

Well, let's give you some good news here. I went down a channel I was not expecting, but hopefully, uh, that will, uh, that will be helpful.

01:26:55

I'm looking at if there's any other comments before I want to move on. Not really. All right, let's move on then.

01:27:04

Um, if you have any more questions about that, you can private message me, we are going to switch gears and I'm going to tell you, oh, we're going to talk about South Africa, South Africa.

01:27:17

This is actually an issue that's kind of near and dear to my heart because my brother was in South Africa for a bit. He lived there.

01:27:23

He learned Afrikaans. He learned some Swahili, uh, and I was never big into that history, but he was so enamored by it.

01:27:31

And then, and then he kind of got me into Rhodesian history. And, um, and so before this was ever talked about as an issue,

01:27:38

I was pretty aware of it. And I had already, you can go back on my channel. I've done interviews with people from South Africa and Rhodesia multiple times.

01:27:46

And to see this was such a good thing. President Trump in the Oval Office, and he is sitting next to president

01:27:54

Cyril Ramaphosa, who is the president of South Africa.

01:28:00

And he shows the president video proof of 1000 white farmers.

01:28:08

He calls it burial sites. It was, it was more, it was a Memorial. It was on the road. It was a

01:28:13

Memorial, uh, to white farmers who had died in what some are calling a genocide in South Africa.

01:28:19

He says, they're all white farmers. It's a terrible site. I've never seen anything like it. So he confronts the president of South Africa with this is happening in your country.

01:28:27

I never thought I would see this. It's amazing. It's incredible. And he is letting some,

01:28:32

I don't even think many have come 150, 160, but he's some South African white people.

01:28:39

And I say whites on purpose, by the way, it's, it's because the Dutch, these are both the bore.

01:28:45

So the Dutch descendants and the English, the British who came later, and some of them have intermarried.

01:28:50

So it is appropriate to say white South African in this case. Uh, but he's letting some of them come and, uh, as refugees, cause they're true refugees.

01:29:00

And this of course has been met with disdain by the left. Uh, in fact,

01:29:05

I had it queued up. I don't know where it went. Oh man. It was, it was, I think the PC USA, if I'm not mistaken,

01:29:12

I decided to shut down their refugee resettlement program because they will not be part of resettling

01:29:17

South African refugees. So as white people, apparently it's a problem now. Uh, and of course, if you even look this up online, all you're going to find are articles debunking that there's a white genocide there.

01:29:29

Cause we know there's not, I would recommend going watch Lauren, uh, Lauren Southern's documentary farmlands.

01:29:37

It was a few years ago, but it's, it's a good treatment of this, I think. And I think that this issue, um, has revealed kind of the left's really, they do not want people who are going to come here and vote the way that they don't like it.

01:29:58

They're fine importing the third world here, but they don't want people coming in who are going to reinforce, uh, kind of the, the

01:30:06

Protestant Christian European, uh, ethos that exists.

01:30:12

And you, I made the point on X. I said, look, you drop these people in the Midwest and they fit right in.

01:30:19

I mean, they're, the cultures are pretty similar. In fact, it, I mean, they're, they're big country music fans.

01:30:26

They're just, uh, they're Christians. They're pretty serious about their faith. I don't see this as a loss.

01:30:34

I mean, I, I, I, I would be fine just shutting the border down completely, but if we're going to let anyone in, these guys should be at the front of the list.

01:30:41

Well, why do you say that, John? I mean, are they really being persecuted? Well, since 2010, there have been about 170 ,000 farm attacks, supposedly.

01:30:51

I'm sure more since Lauren Southern's documentary, but that was one of the things she talked about. Uh, 22, 20, almost 23 ,000 farm murders with a 72 .9

01:30:59

% increase in attacks between 2012 and 2016. That's according to we can stop the genocide, a group advocating for rural white farmers.

01:31:08

These attacks often are marked by extreme brutality, like boiling 12 year old boys in hot water or elderly women having their eyes gouged out.

01:31:17

Yeah, I'm not kidding guys. These are sick people doing sick things, uh, drowning people.

01:31:23

Um, it, it, it is disgusting. The kinds of things that are happening in South Africa and the government of South Africa just wants to take land from these white, uh, farmers just confiscating it at their whim.

01:31:38

Uh, you cannot own a business in South Africa. Uh, 51 % of it has to be owned.

01:31:46

The owner, there's a lot of cases like this. The owner is a black guy, but it's really a white guy. Effectively. He's got to have the black guy on the paperwork to even have the business.

01:31:55

Um, I mean, you don't understand the kind of discrimination that's going on in South Africa if you haven't read about it. Uh, the, the

01:32:04

South Africans, the white South Africans are taxed very heavily for an incredible welfare state that exists there.

01:32:11

The government has done nothing about the, what's going on the ANC, uh, which is the, it's

01:32:16

Mandela's party. Um, they have, uh, supported land expropriation.

01:32:24

They have, uh, members of their party have even chanted things like, you know, uh, or been part of,

01:32:31

I I'm trying to remember now, cause I think there's a more radical party than the ANC if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. They're the ones that are chanting death to the white farmers and so forth, but the

01:32:39

ANC is definitely in on some of that. And one of the big problems is the police reporting is skewed.

01:32:46

And so all the articles you're going to find online that say, Oh, there's Trump's lying about this. They are citing the government's official numbers.

01:32:53

The South African police reported only 44 farm related murders in 2024 with just one farmer killed groups like, um,

01:33:02

Afri forum documented 77 farm attacks and nine murders in just the first quarter of 2023 alone.

01:33:09

There's a discrepancy in the numbers here. Um, there's underreporting 70 % of the commercial farmland is owned by whites who comprise just 7 % of the population.

01:33:19

And there's targeted policies that want to make them get off that land that they people want that land.

01:33:27

So that's why this is happening. And I think it's 50, 59 African Connors.

01:33:32

I mean, it's, it's a drop in the bucket, but people are outraged about it. That tells you a lot. And, and I saw

01:33:38

Joel, I think it was Joel Berry was saying something about from the Babylon B was like, well, it should be a meritocracy. The people that are going to come in, that we should just bring people that are smart.

01:33:47

I disagree with Joel Berry on this. We bring people that are culturally similar. One aspect of that could be that they're smart and they contribute, but we bring people that are culturally similar because our culture is what's under attack more than anything else.

01:34:00

And if we're going to bring people in, I want to see Christians. I want to see people and, and the, the

01:34:07

Dutch and the English heritage here do make a difference here because America is an Anglo Protestant country.

01:34:12

Those who have come here, those who have assimilated have had to assimilate into that to be part of America. And if, and these people are easy to assimilate into that, it's not a big jump for them.

01:34:24

In fact, they already have a lot of the cultural touchstones down. There's going to be differences, but they're, they're culturally pretty similar.

01:34:32

It's from the Anglo sphere. Okay. So there, I don't see them as a threat to our national identity.

01:34:39

Whereas people from the third world coming here are a threat and I don't care how successful they are, how well they can run your tech business.

01:34:47

They're still, even if they're successful on numbers and data and computers, they're still adding to an ethos that undermines the

01:34:57

Anglo Protestant character of this country. So that's, that's where, where I come down on this.

01:35:03

And I think the old Testament is similar to this, that it takes generations to be assimilated into even think now in the old

01:35:11

Testament was different, obviously with the way that the church and state or the equivalent of the church was, but to, to, to be assimilated into the temple worship for certain groups, you had to wait three or 10 generations.

01:35:25

There was even certain restrictions on what you could and couldn't do when you came in, but there's, there had to be some kind of an assimilation mechanism.

01:35:32

And I'm just saying it is easier for some groups than it is for others. And we should prioritize the one it's easier for.

01:35:39

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And I wanted to also, before we get to questions and we end the podcast here, just let you know about this because I'm encouraged by it.

01:35:51

Pete Hegseth prompts criticism for prayer to King Jesus during Pentagon event. I was so happy to see this.

01:35:57

The left is going after him and he is so unashamed. He just went there. He prayed to King Jesus and I right wing watch is going nuts.

01:36:06

They're putting out all this stuff about he's a Christian nationalist and this and that. Well, he's a serious Christian is what he is.

01:36:12

And maybe you're, you know, people aren't used to seeing that, but person who's running our DOD is totally one of our guys.

01:36:19

And this is another thing. This is from England, but the quiet revival Gen Z leaders rise in church attendance from the

01:36:25

Bible society .org. And in this graph, I want you to look at this.

01:36:31

It compares 2018 to 2024. So this is only a six year difference.

01:36:36

Look at that 18 to 24 and that 25 to 34. Now it's across all, all these demographics, but look, especially at the 18 to 24 and then 25 to 34 metric here for church attendance for Gen Z 18 to 24 from 4 % in 2018 to 16 % in 2024.

01:36:58

Now this is in great Britain. And of course it's risen, um, in 65 plus it's risen with, uh, 35 to 44.

01:37:06

It's actually fallen. It looks, or no, it's yeah, it's fallen with 45 to 64 year olds, which is interesting, but Gen Z, uh,

01:37:15

I mean, you might say that's not much. That's only 16%. And most of it is Catholic from what I understand a big chunk of it.

01:37:22

It's not the church of England, but, um, I don't, I didn't really get into it too deeply, but I just want to let you know that I want to keep my eye on this and see where it's going.

01:37:31

I don't know exactly what it all means, but I am pretty positive about it. I am optimistic that maybe

01:37:39

I I'm, I'm very, like I said about Gen Z, I am cautiously optimistic that caution is still there because of all the polling on abortion and so forth.

01:37:48

But I think in the next two years, we're going to get some polls that will really show us where the trajectory is. And I'm very curious to see that.

01:37:54

Okay. Any questions, cries of outrage, conundrums, anything? Uh, cause

01:38:00

I'm going to end the podcast. Um, let's see.

01:38:05

Would love to restrict voting to those who can affirm the apostles creed at minimum from memory and own land and own land.

01:38:13

I have some brushing up to do. Hmm. King Jesus is the modern Jesus is

01:38:19

Lord with how people don't understand the word anymore. Yeah, that's a good point. I think so. I love

01:38:24

King Jesus. That's a great line to use. Would there be a suggestion for actual pro uh, filing religious religious wise as in monitoring if the potential immigrants are at least professing

01:38:34

Christians background? Oh, okay. I see what, I think I see what you're saying. Um, well with South Africans, yeah, there probably isn't a mechanism for that, but with South Africans, uh, they are overwhelmingly white

01:38:48

South Africans, at least Christian. So in fact, before apartheid, uh, was ended and so forth, the, um, the military for South Africa, everyone was issued a

01:38:57

Bible, I think. And they, it was, it was a very overtly Christian society, same with Rhodesia.

01:39:04

Uh, so, and I think that is more pronounced because of their small numbers of population. You tend to cling to religion more and cling to your community and cling to your traditions because you're surrounded by a bunch of people who do not like you.

01:39:16

So I wouldn't worry about that too much. Um, I volunteer cosmic treason.

01:39:26

I volunteer to assimilate one of the Dutch South African girls. Well, I, uh,

01:39:33

I don't know where you can sign up for that, but it sounds like you're a single guy and I will pray for you tonight that you find whether it's a

01:39:39

Dutch South African or someone from the United States that, uh, you find someone that's,

01:39:45

I don't know. Sorry. That's pretty funny. Um, yeah, 59, I said 150 notes, 59 white people.

01:39:51

Yeah. Look at all the, the hate for 59 white people is insane. If you saw the video too, and they come into the country, they all, they're all waving

01:40:00

American flags. I've never seen an immigrant group do that. They're already assimilating, which

01:40:05

I think is great. All right. Well, we are going to end the podcast.

01:40:11

I really appreciate everyone's time and attention. And, uh, there, like I said, there'll be a audio podcast dropping on iTunes and Spotify and so forth on Saturday morning, but you probably won't see me again until next week.

01:40:23

You could pray for me. I've got a lot to do and, uh, some big, big stuff coming that you will know about very soon that, uh, is going to be droppings and I need to prepare for it.