News Roundup: Bryan Chapell's List, SBC Transparency, Lucado's Church, Buice, NEOTR & More

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I'm your host, John Harris for a late night, Thursday night stream. I wasn't planning on doing this necessarily tonight. I was hoping to do it this morning and the day got away from me. I would appreciate your prayers.

I've got a lot going on and I didn't really plan for any error. So there's a number of things I need to prepare for and write that need to happen before the end of the month. And yesterday my refrigerator decided that it would stop working.

And then I thought I had it working and then it stopped working again. So it took a lot of time. And then of course my computer stopped working. So I actually have gone through the process of redoing the computer, like wiping the hard drive, starting from scratch twice now.

And I think it finally works. And I was looking online today because I thought, wow, if this doesn't work, it just keeps freezing up on me and maybe it'll still do that. It seems like it's been doing pretty well, but I thought I'll just have to buy another computer.

And I was looking online and I'm like, my goodness, for 800 bucks, I could get one that's twice as good as the one I have. I only have like 16 gigabytes of Ram and a terabyte in my hard drive. And anyway, not that anyone cares about my woes, but I just thought this is actually kind of a dated piece of equipment.

Maybe that's part of my problem. I should get something a little better, but we'll see. We'll see. Those things come up in life though. I'm actually leading a study on the book of James for a small church that's more of like a church revitalization project, I guess you could say.

And anyway, every Wednesday night I go up there and lead a Bible study. And so I was thinking this week a lot about James 1, because that's where we are. And two weeks ago we did trials. Of course, last week was temptations.

And then we talked about being doers of the word last night and not just hearers. And so with everything that is happening around me, I'm just like, okay, James has given me the wisdom. James has said where to find it.

James is telling me I got to view this from a heavenly perspective. So I'm just going to be obedient and trudge on and we'll get through it. But I did want to give you something at least. So just a few quick announcements.

There is a podcast dropping Saturday morning with Dr. Don Livingston. I did an interview with him on ideology or ideology, depending on your pronunciation or pronunciation. And it's a kind of a heady podcast and it wasn't really video worthy.

So anyways, it's coming out in audio. So for all those who watch on video, just be aware of that Saturday morning. If you want to get more conversations that matter podcasts in your life, and I don't know why you wouldn't, then you're going to want to sign up or at least find on iTunes or Spotify that particular episode.

And then I forgot. Oh, the other thing. Yes. The Edmund Burke episode dropped the first one. This is a patron exclusive. I've given it to a few other people who are supportive of the podcast. If you want it and you don't have the means to pay the five bucks or to become a patron, just message me and I will send you the link because I want as many people who want it to have access to it.

But I also knew that I needed to do some exclusive content for supporters. So this is my way once a month of doing that. And this is, of course, a series that I'm doing on the great books of conservative thought, Anglo American Christian conservative thought.

So I think it'll be very beneficial. And I'm already getting a lot of good feedback on this episode regarding Edmund Burke. So anyway, good evening. Good evening. W .T. Henry is in channel and I'm seeing people start to filter in.

So it's always good when I don't plan a podcast, but I see people, I guess they, I don't know how you get it. Maybe notifications. See, this is a problem. I've been doing this for six years. I still don't exactly know how it all works, but you should probably subscribe.

That's right. Yes. You should be getting the notifications and everything. I'm pretty sure if you subscribe on YouTube, that's what happens. I don't know if they send you an email or what, but that, that would probably be good.

Well, let's, let's talk about some things. There's a lot of things to talk about today, this evening. We're going to talk about a couple of things that won't take a lot of time. There's some of them are pretty hysterical, to be honest with you.

Let's just start with one. This is actually pretty funny to me. So we're just going to start with it. Let's do it.

The Bryan Chappell “Scandalizers” List and PCA Drama

This behavior carries very large financial incentives, especially compared to the slow work of serving inside an institution. What do we do? I, Colin, you and I didn't talk about that.

Previously. So you read that and I didn't know you would, but you may have seen me glance aside. And the reason I did was I, I'm going to show this to you quickly. I keep the note on my desk. Those are the names of the scandalizers.

The people who have invested hours every day attacking others for their supposed lack of, um, faithfulness for their compromise, who, who, who, whose identity comes from scandalizing others. And every name on that list is either left his family, left the faith or taken his life.

Every name on that list. It, I, I can, you know, it's amazes me. I've done this for almost 50 years now. I've been an ordained ministry. And I, I can tell you almost with certainty, those who, those who build their reputations on destroying the reputations of others will end up with terribly dark lives.

You just cannot live in darkness in this segment of your life. I'm going to spend my life trying to make fun, mock, scandalize other people, but I'm going to be tender and precious and kind with my wife and children.

All right. Well, that was a podcast from the Gospel Coalition. And, uh, you saw Colin Hanson there interviewing Brian Chappell. Now, Brian Chappell, someone, if you've gone to seminary, you've probably had to read some Brian Chappell.

If it was a conservative evangelical seminary, I had to read his book on worship. And he's, uh, I think I've actually read a few books of his, uh, if I'm not mistaken, but he's kind of a common name in the PCA and in broader evangelicalism.

He's written a number of books. Uh, he was at, I think covenant college, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, that's him. And he, uh, as you can see, he holds up this list. Now, before I get to the really funny part here, it's kind of a weird thing, right?

I mean, I don't know. I just thought it was odd. Like I actually am probably one of the kinds of people he's talking about, right? Cause the whole context is Colin Hanson is saying there's these guys, they don't have to do the real work of the ministry because they just ripped down other people's ministries.

And, uh, and there's probably some truth to that. There are people I think that are like that, but I think they, Colin Hanson tends to cast with such a large net on this topic that, you know, it's, it's those pulpit and pen people.

I would be included people who disparage or not even disparage just are critical of the gospel coalition. Right. And so, I mean, I I've seen Colin post those kinds of things for a long time. He's very sensitive to those attacks on TGC.

Well, he talks about this and then Brian Chappell's responses, you know, what those people who go after others, I got a whole list of them right here, right there. I'm ready for it. I just, I keep it right here next to me, close to me in my office.

Um, I don't even do that. That's really weird. Like I'm one of the people that's supposed to do that, right. Or maybe, I don't know, maybe David moral at a protest. Yeah. He just has a right next to him.

There's, there's a list of all those guys that he just doesn't like because they're, uh, they don't do the real work of ministry and they have catastrophic results in their lives. Uh, they're just terrible people.

They're awful. Um, they are the, what did he say? The scandalizers, the scandalizers. Um, you would think the scandalizers would be the ones to have a list like that. But Brian Chappell, who's not the scandalizer has a list like that.

That's really weird. It's like, you wonder are people living in his head rent free? Well, here's the hysterical part. It was, so in that particular, um, video that you saw, there was, uh, like a, I don't know, an edit they did where they tried to blur out the list.

The original podcast did not have that blur. So the gospel coalition, somehow it gets past their editing process to show the list. Then they uploaded a version where they blur out, or maybe they just used YouTube's edits to blur out the list.

And then they just deleted the whole entire or made it private. I don't know, but it's gone. So you can't get that podcast video anymore. Well, um, fortunately we do have the technology and, uh, there were some people who decided that they would take it upon themselves to give you the list.

So here is Gabe wrench posting the list apparently. Uh, and you can't read all of it, but there's a clear picture of the list. Yep. This is pretty clear. And there, there's some interesting names on it.

Um, David Bailey seems to be one of the names. I think that's war horn media. So that's someone who's I think, uh, kind of a watchdog group in the PCA. No, sorry. I getting that wrong. Sorry. Tim Bailey, I think is the guy I'm thinking of.

So there's a guy that sounds, it looks like David Bailey, then Tim Bailey. So Tim Bailey is the one I was talking about. Uh, Ken Pierce lane, Keister, Wes White, Frank Smith, Jeff Myers, Peter, Peter, Peter Lightheart.

That's interesting. Peter Lightheart. Now he's in the CREC. I think, uh, David Weingraft, Jeff Hutchinson, Andy Webb, Amy bird, Carl, Carl Truman, Carl Truman is on this list. I, when, when I saw that, I, I, you know, that discernment blogger, Carl Truman, who, uh, you know, when you think of like evangelical kind of squishes in my mind, like the conservative squishes guys who are like, like who can't really take a big stand when it'll cost them, but when it won't cost them, I mean, they'll take a good stand and they like to do the intellectual thing of, uh, in the abstract going after threats, but not actually going after it when it's attached to someone anyway.

Um, that kind of a person, I think of a few guys, but Carl Truman's on that, on my short list for that. Cause, cause I'm thinking growth city college, he went to bat for those guys. Like, Oh, there's no wokeness here.

And he'll write against wokeness and social justice. But meanwhile, they're, they're doing CRT stuff and he just flat out denies that it's happening that that's Carl Truman. And, uh, and I've done a other stuff on Carl Truman, not saying everything he says is necessarily bad or wrong, but I just, he he's got that squish thing going on.

Anyway, Carl Truman though, I guess is one of these guys. He's one of the scandalizers according to Brian chapel. So talk about drama. And then you have, um, Daryl Hart, Daryl Hart. I wasn't expecting that either.

He's very critical of Christian nationalism. He actually has some good books. I'm not, I know that could get me in trouble with some of the guys who are like hardcore Christian nationalist types, but he actually does have some good historical material.

I'm not going to lie, uh, at Grove city college. And then, um, let's see who else? Bill Smith, Phil Harden, Liam Gallagher, Carl Thurman and Carl, uh, McIntyre. I don't know if that's McIntyre from the old fundamentalist days.

I don't know. That's kind of weird. If he's got that name, he's been gone for a while, but that's the list. And so why is this relevant, John? Who cares? Are, you know, is this just stupid drama? Cause it was a stupid drama.

I wouldn't be giving it to you, but, um, I actually don't think it's stupid drama because the, for those who are outside of the PCA, this might be a little bit, uh, like, like it might not make as much sense.

He's the stated clerk. Okay. What does that mean? It's, it's like being the president of the Southern Baptist convention. If you're a Southern Baptist, okay. Like he is the executive of, and the spokesperson, the representative, the face of the PCA that's who Brian Chappell is.

So it's kind of a big position and then to reveal your enemies list publicly. Now I know he's not saying it's enemies. These are scandalizers. That's going to get you in trouble. Um, exhibit a Andy Webb right here.

Wow. So according to the stated clerk of the PCA, Brian Chappell, I am one of the scandalizers who have either left the faith, their family, or taken their life. I'm happy to report that rumors of my demise or apostasy or divorce have been greatly exaggerated.

But now everyone is asking, how did you end up on the stated clerk's enemies list? Well, I suspect it goes back to 2001 when Chappell was the president. Wow. So we're going back over 20 years here is I just side note here.

That's incredible to me. I, I understand like there's guys I can go back in my mind and I know I'm younger, but 15 years, 20, even 20 years, almost, I can think of guys that I was kind of close to. But now if we saw each other, it would be awkward because even though a decade or two has passed, there was, there was friction, right?

There, there were problems. I think everyone has relationships that go South or friendships that go South for whatever reason. And if it was never really dealt with, which I do try to deal with every single time that happens, it doesn't happen often, but if it ever happens, that is something I try to at least address and have a conversation about.

Um, so, so far as it depends on you be at peace with all, with all men, I believe in that. I practice that. Uh, anyway, I can't imagine though, something over 20 years ago, keeping a name on a list next to me.

Like that's incredible. Like I wouldn't want to remember that person probably, or that, cause it brings up pain, right? I mean, that's most people, uh, unless, unless that's driving me, that's just really, really strange behavior.

But if it's true, if what he's saying is true, and it's not from something over 20 years ago, he says, chapel was the president of CTS. So that what is that as theological seminary chart, is that Charlotte?

I don't know. And despite their attempts to cover it up, it got out that a woman had delivered the sermon in chapel on at least two occasions. As a result of the next general assembly, at least one overture was sent up calling for an investigation.

Um, I was on the overtures committee and I spoke in favor. Chapel was in the room and was given the privilege of the floor, then stood up and defended the seminary. So basically he went after the seminary that chapel was a president of for do it for the right thing.

And he, he thinks that's the only thing he can think of. Apparently that would merit why he's on this list. I, I just, I, you, you, it blows you away a little bit because it's got, it's a little bit like the Josh Bice thing, but, but worse in a way, because Brian chapel has this, I think it was unanimously voted on to be the executive for the PCA.

So he has this larger than life reputation as a good theologian, a measured guy. Uh, as far as I know, I mean, I don't know, I don't have a close look, so maybe that's not completely true. Once you get closer, I don't know, but I know he's been respected everywhere.

I've gone at Southeastern at masters and, and he's not the kind of guy that ends up popping into headlines very much. He's not going to be featured on Protestia's website, let's say, but this is what he's, this is what's going on in his heart.

Apparently he's, he's got this list next to him and it, man, don't, don't become so petty guys. That's all I got to say is, uh, this is the kind of thing that honestly, this will probably help bring him down.

And I, I don't know if God is doing a purge himself. He is exposing ministries and people who, uh, have been in positions of influence and he's showing what their hearts are really like. It just seems that way to me.

It seems like there's so many instances of this, of clarifying situations that just show you that that's who this person actually is. And ultimately no one escapes God's judgment, right? God knows everything.

God knows what you're posting through your anon accounts. No one's going to escape that. But I thought that was interesting. So, um, let's, let's, uh, I, I'm going to switch gears here, but I want to get to some of the comments here because there's a lot of them coming in.

Um, it's, it's terrible for the PCA to have this guy on top. Yes. No wonder they invited David French to speak. Hmm. Hmm. I probably less, uh, probably true. Um, okay. Less blah, blah about your boring church politics and more chest hair reveals, please.

Okay. Thanks Merton. What a weird comment. I didn't see a names list that I recognize. Well, if you're in the PCA, you'd recognize the Amy bird. Yes. Well, Amy bird. Yeah. She's, she's kind of gone off the deep end with her theology from what I understand.

Matt says, I finished your audible. I, uh, book, uh, that would be against the waves, Christian order in a liberal age. I posted a review. Uh, if you need help with your, uh, oh, that's very nice. Thank you.

With your, you know, I've had a few people offering to help me with tech hookup and computer stuff. And yeah, I realized I kind of do this for a living, so I should probably have a good computer, but, um, I'm not, yeah, I'm not wanting to replace this one yet.

It's, it's expensive. And, uh, I'd like to get a few more months out of it, at least. So we'll see, maybe we'll get a few years. I I'm, I'm the black Friday sale kind of guy. At least I used to be until black Friday was overtaken by cyber Monday.

So I hate trying to buy a computer in the spring. I'm just saying, well, let's talk about, uh, the speaking of women, speaking in chapel, this is Oak Hills church. And this is where Max Lucado is a pastor.

Now this is, or I think he's might be a meritus at this point, but this is his church. Now, um, on mother's day, apparently the sermon was led. The service was led by women, the whole thing, but the sermon itself was delivered by Jenna Lucado Bishop, who is his daughter, Max Lucado's daughter.

Now someone emailed this to me because they are essentially leaving the church. It's the last straw. I think it's a number of things that have culminated, but this is the last straw. This would not be a story except for this.

This is still live on oakhillschurch .com. And it is there a study of the role of women in the church. And it is the, uh, it's 119 pages. And it is the position of the church on women in ministry essentially.

So here is the relevant part for you. Oh, kills. Women are currently barred from leading and serving in the following roles. And I do quote, preaching and teaching in the worship centers, leading public prayers in the worship centers.

So what's going on, right? And what's going on is there's many instances of this, but you can have solid doctrine. You can have a good statement of faith. People can go look it up and feel comfortable and say, that might be a good church.

Let's go check it out. None of that matters. If it's not actually being applied, if it's not followed, then who cares? You can have the best statement of faith in the world. And that's, what's going on at max locators church.

They do have a pretty solid statement of faith from what I understand. I haven't read it all, but they, you know, I think they would be different than the tradition I'm part of and probably loose on some things, but on that particular point, that is their doctrine.

That's what they believe. They're not following it though. And to me, that's actually great. That is a greater lack of integrity to me, to not follow your own rules. Then it would be better for them to change the rules and just say, you know what, we're going to allow women pastors.

Now I'm not, I obviously don't agree with that because I don't think the apostle Paul agrees with that, but that would be have more integrity with in doing that than to just violate which your church claims to believe.

So just another warning to everyone who's looking for churches. And especially I see this with moving to different areas. They're trying to get out of a blue state, perhaps to go to a red state. And so they're looking online, they're listening to sermons.

And most of all, they're looking at statements of faith. And I think you should, but don't think that that's the whole, that that doesn't actually reflect exactly what the church believes. And I was having a conversation with someone necessarily, I should say it could reflect it.

I was having a conversation with someone earlier today about this, that in evangelical circles, so often the only metric used for assessing whether someone was, is within the bounds of acceptability is whether or not they are within the boundaries of orthodoxy.

So can they subscribe to your statement of faith or confession? And if they can, then you're in, right? We don't, we assume that people aren't going to lie. So we just take them at their word. We assume that they have the same interpretation of those things as we do.

And sometimes they don't. We assume that they don't have other beliefs that contradict and undermine their stated beliefs. We just assume these things so often. And I don't know that we've ever actually escaped this.

Even guys who are more edgy and they'll say things like, you know, shouldn't we allow kind of, you know, and if more, I'll just use the broad, vague language of more nefarious characters who happen to be on the right.

Shouldn't we let them in our church and give them positions even of influence because on the sole basis of, they say they agree with the statement of faith. Right. And I pointed out that, you know, if someone, let's say someone came in and said, you know what, I agree with your full statement of faith.

And then you find out they're really big fans of the 1619 project. And they, they, that's, that's what they really enjoy. That's maybe that's their secular job. They're a college professor. And that's what they parrot.

What do you do about that? I think that's something worth looking into because it's, it's like, you know, they could say, we just have a different view of history. That's all we have. There's no actual difference in regards to our stated beliefs here.

We both have a confession that we hold to, or, or they could have a character that's lousy and you don't actually know them. I mean, there's all, there's all kinds of different ways to, to, to see that someone might not be qualified for leadership or influence, but they, they believe in your statement of faith.

Um, anyway, separate topic, but I think it's worth bringing up that just because there's a statement of faith that does not necessarily mean everything is good now and tucked away and you don't have to worry about it.

Uh, you gotta do some due diligence, which also means probably spending some time. I don't actually think, I know there's obviously every circumstance is different and there's probably exceptions to this, but I don't know that it's wise to join a church right away.

To be quite honest with you, you might want to just check it out for a little while. I was just talking to my dad who's a pastor today about this with a couple that's going to go into our church. They, they, um, they've been looking though, they're, they kind of come from a distance and they've been looking in other areas and it's, they have to, you have to go for a while to really figure out, is this above board?

And there was a pastor, good statement of faith, preach the word, expository. And it's looking like that guy might be on, um, let's just say one of those lists, um, that the government puts out to warn you not to bring your kids near them.

So I'm just saying, all right, well, let's move on with my, uh, my, my word here. I could talk about this for a long time. Let's see, what do we want to talk about next? Let's talk about this. This is another denominational thing.

This is, uh, posted by Vicki Jackson. Vicki Jackson does a really good job on the church of the Nazarene and I know it doesn't get as much play and cover, but Vicki, if you're, if you're a Nazarene, you might want to subscribe to her on YouTube.

She sends me stuff sometimes. And this is a, um, a meeting at least. I'm not going to play it for you. It's about 45 minutes. So I'm not going to play the whole thing, but, uh, Elijah Friedman is the person you see here.

He's been on the podcast and he is reading, I don't, I guess a resolution. I think they call it resolution. And this particular resolution is, um, a, a call to urge the world evangelism fund for the church of the Nazarene to urge them to stop giving money, which they give about $1 .1 million a year to the Nazarene theological seminary.

The Nazarene theological seminary employs professors who affirm same-sex sexual intimacy. And so I would be comfortable saying they have heretics at their seminary and they don't have the capacity or the means somehow to do anything about this.

They still enjoy their privileged positions there. He named some of them, uh, Steve McCormick, Michael Christensen, and they have LGBTQ plus affirming views that undermine obviously doctrine, the doctrine of that denomination, but yet the denomination keeps funding this particular school.

Now it's interesting. This did receive opposition at the, this district meeting, uh, pastor Darren Brown and Dr. Dan Boone opposed the resolution. Brown argued that the assembly lacks enough information and trust the board of trustees at Nazarene theological seminary and the general superintendents to handle the issue, uh, calling the resolution divisive.

Boone argued or warned against using platforming to shame institutions and defend academic engagement with diverse views and notes that Nazarene theological seminary's leadership is accountable and addressing concerns and urged a more nuanced approach.

So this is the kind of play I see across denominations. It's breaking protocol. It's, they're, they're going to, they'll handle the issue. We can trust them. It's just a blind trust. How about we trust them with our over $1 million a year that are just given from our churches once they actually solve the issue and then they can get the money back and then they'll prove that we can trust them.

How about that? It's amazing that there's an assumption that they should just continue getting millions of dollars because on their good work, because, Oh, academic, you're gonna have different views in academia.

I really wear the boundaries for that. This is a confession that this is, this is a group that has stated beliefs and they expect those beliefs to be propagated. They're not, this isn't a liberal arts school.

This is a church of the Nazarene school. So this is where the pastors are trained. Why in the world would you do that? Um, anyway, that was, uh, you know, good on Elijah for, uh, standing up and trying to, uh, do something here.

I really, really appreciate that. Um, and then, you know what, there's a bunch of stuff that, Oh, you know what? I'm forgetting because I didn't, I didn't play it. Well, let me play it now. I have a video queued up for you.

Speaking of speaking of financial accountability and, um, and all that kind of thing. I want to play you a clip from the send network event that happened a few days ago. This is in the North American mission board for the Southern Baptist convention and his president Vance Pittman.

And I don't know if you're gonna be able to hear everything he says. I'm going to try to play it. Maybe in the comments, let me know if you can hear this or not. It's kind of on a bad camera. It's a, it's a phone camera, but this is what he had to say about financial transparency in the.

Southern Baptist convention in the SBC that has an independent auditor paid full time to audit every receipt that is turned in. And that independent auditor does not report to anyone in this building.

She reports directly to the trustees appointed by the Southern Baptist convention to hold us accountable. There's only one entity that has a full time independent auditor. If I take somebody to lunch for $12, I'm going to be honest.

I think this audio is pretty.

Bad. Uh, I don't know if you can hear that. So I'm just going to summarize what he's about to say. You can go online and find it if you want. It's Vance Pittman, the, uh, send send network event that happened a few days ago.

It's on X Megan Basham commented on it. He argues Vance does that the send network and he's angry. He, well, he's, he's forward. He's very forceful about this. Very, very direct, very adamant that the send network is financially accountable.

There is transparency. Well, he doesn't say transparency. They're accountable. Okay. So he doesn't like all this talk about financial transparency because, uh, for every year for maybe the last five years, there's been some kind of a movement to try to get, I mean, that was kind of what Randy Adams ran on, right.

To try to get some kind of a financial audits. Uh, if we could audit and find out where the money's coming from and where it's going, that would be great. And he says, well, we got auditors though. We got, we, we have people that are, uh, they're, they're accountable to the trustees.

Of course, we have people that are, they're looking after this. Just trust us. It's the same thing. It's like, just trust us. Now here's the thing you could, you could make sure that the balances line up that, uh, the money coming in is spent and everything adds up.

You know, you could have an, I don't know, does he say auditor or accountant? Now I'm trying, I can't, I can't remember, but they have, they have accountants. Okay. They have accountants that make sure that everything lines up.

That doesn't answer though. Where, where's the money coming from and where is it going? Is it, I mean, if someone's on the payroll, let's say some pastor who's already got his own payroll and now he's doing hardly anything for send, but he's getting another, I'm just hypothetical here.

Not that I know anyone who would do that getting another payroll. If there's things like that and you discover that, then yeah, the numbers might all add up, but they're going to bad things. Um, or, or they're going to frivolous things or property or whatever.

The problem is that the messengers to the convention don't actually know what's going on with the money that their churches give to the convention. At least they, I mean, if they could get some itemized, you know, like a nine 90 or something that shows you this, but there, what he proceeds to argue is the messengers actually don't need to know that information because there are trustees.

And then he uses this emotional thing and says, well, these trustees, they're, they're just normal everyday men and women given their last best effort. And they're, they're on these trustee boards and they're just doing their best.

And then you're saying that they're not doing a good job. Well, we're saying Southern Baptists are saying, we just want to see the books. We just want to see where our money's, uh, what our money's being spent on.

Is that too much to ask? Well, apparently it is. Apparently it is. And it's the same thing you just saw at the church of the Nazarene. It's you just got to trust the leaders. You can't ever question if, if everything is above board, what's the big deal?

That's my question. What's the big deal? Just make it publicly available so people can see it. That's all. That doesn't, how does that insult anyone that actually is probably going to, uh, be a good thing for trustees because it will give them, um, it, it, it'll back up the good ones who don't want ways to want the money going into the right places.

And, and they'll have at the wind at their back. They'll hopefully they'll have messengers who have given them a mandate to make sure that this happens. But, um, but that's anyway, sad, sad leading up to the Southern Baptist convention, but that's what you have now moving on.

I promise we're going to get to some good news here. I promise we will. But leading up to, um, uh, the, the next thing we're going to talk a little bit about this, and I don't know if I got this in the right order I wanted.

Um, yeah, I guess so. Uh, we were almost 35 minutes in, so I'm going to probably be quick on this, but the Roy's report received last December, a letter, an email, and the email was from someone named Tom Smith.

Only it wasn't Tom Smith. It was Josh Bice, president of G3 ministries. And Josh Bice proceeds to say that Vodie Bauckham is making a return trip to the U S and he's going to join Tom Askel's church. Now I'm going to just say, I won't reveal everything, but I will say this.

Uh, cause it's not for me to reveal. I know at this point, Vodie Bauckham actually was not, he was looking at a couple of different options. So it's interesting. Josh, Josh assumes this. I think he, there seems to be based on his Anons, a problem he really had with Tom Askel and Vodie Bauckham specifically teaming up.

He really had a problem with Vodie Bauckham giving his star power to Tom Askel. Anyway, he just assumes Vodie is going to be going to Tom Askel's church. A couple of things remain unanswered fault lines.

I have compelling evidence from sources informing me that major sections of his book were written by a ghostwriter. It's also believed that the ghostwriter sources material from James Lindsay, which is why Vodie Bauckham was accused of plagiarism.

Now I'll just say this. There's only one person I know who has been accusing Vodie Bauckham of plagiarism since the ink was not even dry on the book. You know, wasn't Josh Bice and I'll leave it there and I have no problem revealing more, but at this point I would love to see Josh come clean about who this person was.