June 22, 2022 Show with Jeffrey D. Johnson on “The Dangers of Incorporating Pagan Philosophy with Christian Theology”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 22nd day

of June 2022.

And I'm thrilled to have back as a returning guest my friend.

Dr. Jeffrey D. Johnson.

He is founder of free grace press.

He is the founding pastor and pastor of preaching and teaching at Grace Bible Church in

Conway, Arkansas.

He is also the president and professor of systematic theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in

Conway, Arkansas.

Today we are going to be addressing the very controversial theme the danger of incorporating

Pagan philosophy with Christian theology and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to

honor trip and sign radio.

Dr. Jeffrey D. Johnson back

with you.

I appreciate that and I hope that we continue to bump into each other manning our.

Respective exhibitors booths at various conferences all over the country.

Yeah, yeah, the feeling is mutual.

So tell our listeners first of all about free grace press.

Yes, pretty

publishing one of my own books as a self -published book that

we

begin to do that.

We do about two or three books a year now.

We're doing books a year.

Aiming to do

up our production.

We now have a team of six people.

It seems working on this.

We're got a warehouse, but now looking for a bigger warehouse.

So things are growing and the publishing with our publishing company

coming out next in

the near future.

So that's exciting and for grace press calm we have a I think about 60 books right now that we offer.

And so that's exciting for us.

Now, how can our listeners view the catalog of free grace press?

Well, you just go to free grace press calm and then there's a link to all of our books.

We have them in categories theology commentary ology.

So there's a lot of categories.

We're we started with a lot of theological books.

But now we're getting into books for the family books for children

reformed Baptist perspective.

So that's free grace books.

Calm.

For grace press.

Oh, I'm sorry free grace press.

Calm.

Okay, great.

And now tell us about the congregation where you pastor and calmly.

Arkansas grace Bible Church.

Yeah, I've been past

the year 2000.

So it's

easy to

remember how old

we are.

Your body.

So I'm assuming that I'm assuming that you grew during the kovat crisis because you didn't shut

down.

Be in church rather to

think about church growth.

But you know that I grew up this 80 % rule once you're 80 % of capacity.

You won't grow anymore with your parking lot with your seating.

So you need once you're 80 you have to Get more space, but we're at

120 and so I'm not for sure

on where do they fit?

We may do two services, but we surely don't like to we're rotating

in the seminary building

in that building.

So that's it's not ideal.

It's not the way.

Well now tell us about a grace Bible theological seminary.

Okay, that's we've been in our current building for a lot of.

I think it's three years celebrating three years

Occupy.

And so we're right it in the fall we predict to have 60 students

going as well.

We'd almost have a full faculty.

We started with just principally me teaching but now we have some

faculty members on -site.

You know residential faculty members.

We also have James White or your friends.

That it's a faculty member, but he comes in.

It looks like it'll be twice a year and we've got Scott annual works with g3 ministries that comes

in he's teaching class.

Yeah, I just interviewed him yesterday the great brother then dr. Owen strand

members Dr. Jeff Moore.

Over a new test for Old Testament.

We just need a biblical counsel and that's what we're working on.

I think we'll have a full faculty.

We've got staff members

on this place and.

You got to tell Dr. Owen strand that he promised me to come back on the

program when I met him at an evening with John MacArthur at.

Northern Kentucky University, so I'm gonna hold him to his promise and I hope that he comes back on soon

now if.

It's not evident in my ears, but some listeners are saying that you keep fading out.

I'm getting emails.

So if you could make sure that your vote your mouth is always near whatever mouthpiece you're using.

Whether it's a phone or a microphone or what have you?

I'm not sure what the situation is why I'm getting these reports from listeners, but Try to make

sure that you're as close to whatever you're speaking into as possible.

Okay,

I don't know because it's not a problem in my ears.

It's just what some people are reporting who are listening.

Okay.

Well also, let me give the

the websites for your church and seminary.

Gbcconway .com is the website for Grace Bible Church in

Conway, Arkansas gbcconway .com and also regarding the

seminary Grace Bible Theological Seminary GBT seminary

.org GBT for Grace Bible Theological Seminary or

GBT seminary .org.

Well, as I said, our our theme today is quite controversial.

One of the reasons that it's quite controversial is that it is a bone of contention.

It is an area of divide Among those that profess

to be Reformed Baptists and even confessional Reformed Baptists and it likely

Goes beyond just that scope.

But the theme is the dangers of incorporating pagan philosophy with Christian theology and if

you could perhaps start with a definition of of

philosophy and then define theology.

Because I'm not

Anti -philosophy because philosophy is like mathematics or any other discipline.

It's just it's asking questions for philosophers are asking questions.

And there's nothing wrong with the question that they ask.

In fact philosophies asking the most basic could be asked like not

worried about what color my car is.

That's not the essential problem of philosophy.

It's worried about Why there's a car or existence to begin with it's asking

ultimate questions.

Like is there a God or what's the cause of the universe?

It's asking questions of who's in charge of Morality and how do we know what we know

and and the answers to these questions will shape everything else

that we believe.

And so it's asking simply has

answers to these.

It's not that Philosophical philosophical question our

philosophers are bad philosophy simply means the love with and so

that's attacking or We're not anti Any of these things

what we mean by pagan philosophy.

We're looking at outside of

divine revelation either Revelations given to us in nature as we

believe God has revealed himself to us in nature that there's certain truths.

That we know in nature.

That's what we find in Romans 1 on psalm 19 and

act 17 and so forth.

We know by nature without the Bible that God is

outside of the universe.

He's not a part of the universe and we know that he's personal and we know that

he's Providentially according to act 17.

He's providentially now.

We know both truths that God is Outside the universe but yet personally involved in

ruling the universe.

This is something all humanity.

The Bible says we all know every language group every person every age category

knows and we know this.

Because it is written in nature and it's a knowledge that is communicated to us

Instantaneously like I'm not saying That it's innate knowledge that we don't need

nature to know it we do need nature we need The world the universe to know this

but it's knowledge is communicated to us like Instantly like when my father calls me on the

phone and say hey son, how are you doing?

I?

Know instantly it's my father who called me.

He doesn't have to say this is dad or this is you know, Don Johnson.

I know instantly by the sound of his voice who it is.

Or the human race knows instantly

observation of this revelation.

Communicated to us in nature.

First of all, are you the are you actually the son of renowned actor of Miami Vice Fame?

Don Johnson.

I don't get that anymore because very few people know who

the actor.

But yeah, my dad's name is Don Johnson, but not the actor.

I knew that I just thought I'd throw that in there.

Yeah, so we know God through that way and we know God

in scriptures.

Communication from above.

God is revealing and both forms of

communication and

Undeniable now we can suppress it.

God knows we're lying to ourselves.

He knows that we do know these truths.

Pagan philosophy is attempt.

There is no divine communication in other words seeking to.

Problem with

that method of seeking to know God the idea that God is

also imminent or near.

He's far and near that he's he's different but

he is

also.

They're not able to

explain how God can

be

and just look

at seeking to reconcile

their philosophy with the Bible of The pagan philosophers getting things.

Well, none of them Resembles the

God our

Gnosticism

or any

of them can

come with

the universe.

And so

that's a way from what revelation teaches us that God is

both transcendent and imminent.

So theology in contrast would be a study of what revelation teaches us.

That's exactly right not attack on reason or logic.

In fact, it's my position that only Theology or that which is derived from

revelation that

God that is consistent with itself.

We pagan is inherently

Inconsistent not just problems down the line

it runs into problems that contradicts.

We have

to have revelation and natural revelation reveals that God is both transcendent

and imminent.

But it doesn't tell us how he can be both but the Bible comes in with the doctrine of the

Trinity which is my understanding is the Explanation of how God can be

both outside of the world, but yet relatable and personable.

So theology is That that theology gives us the answers

and.

Throughout the years as a Christian I have noticed that very often

the tensions and disputes and debates between theologically reformed

Christians and Evangelical Arminian Christians when it comes to those who are actually

published those that are authors those that are on the

faculties of seminaries and sometimes the president of seminaries.

The charge has been very often by the reformed side

that the Arminian side is making too much use if not exclusive use of

philosophy and There appears to be a lot of isogesis

going on on the part of the philosopher.

Where he is taking his presupposition that?

According his own Understanding of things Calvinism could not

be true.

It could not possibly be the theology that describes

the God of love that they know and so they begin to try to force all of scripture to

Follow in line with their philosophy and whereas the reformed exegete is

typically trying to just stick with texts and an Exegete them properly.

Am I am I correct in That that tension that seems to have been going on.

Theologians Reading their books and you've got two people who

are seeking to and this is

what what you talk

about with

Arminianism.

It's this belief of and they have

this definition according to philosophy what libertarian free will must be for that to

be and that becomes a Presupposition and now that has to be true.

Which when that is a cardinal fact that you take into scriptures as something you cannot

deny.

Or you cannot throw away then ultimately you're going to come up to

that presupposition and then that will lead you to

deny God is sovereign and That God pretty lead

to a I see

that in all areas of theology where you

have this that you gained

Philosopher you've read or is your own intuition or your own reasoning and that

becomes a Non -negotiable and once you take something that's a non -negotiable and

just read the text and a lot of that Non -negotiable and then we should say no, we're going

to the to the script as the non -negotiable.

So I have all kinds of beliefs I take to the scriptures not every one of them's bad.

So I'm not saying clear your mind of everything.

It's a part of your mind.

I said the blank slate.

So I'm going in the scriptures

with all kinds of

what has

to be even if I don't understand

it only standard that I must

Reconcile it with

my other beliefs in every.

Can you explain?

Exactly the beginnings of sin.

Well, I don't know if I can but I do know God is sovereign and he's not the author of sin.

Well, how do I know that?

Well because the Bible teaches both of these.

Well, how do you reconcile God's sovereignty and man's?

Responsibility.

Well, I can fill in even if I

can't I Know that script and that is

the non

-negotiable.

Yes.

I mean whenever I have had.

An encounter with an Arminian and We're going back and forth

about The differences we have between

we who are Calvinists and they who are Arminians.

The Definitions will come up by the Arminian or should I say just those outside

of the reformed faith.

Because I have found that most Arminians do not like to be called Arminians.

Whereas we who are reformed typically not always but typically do not mind being called Calvinists, even though

We know that our beliefs come from the God -breathed words of Scripture but we have

accepted over the years that nickname of Calvinism, but When a

verse or verses come up Such as

In Ephesians chapter 2 and verse 8 you read

for For by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God and The non -reformed person will say well, it's

not.

It's not meaning what you think.

It's meaning.

Mr. Calvinist because a.

Gift.

Has to be willingly accepted in order for it to be a gift.

Now there you have a definition.

That is not in the scripture.

There's no there's no Verse or even Context in the scripture that

provides a definition like that that gift must be willingly that so therefore they have this bizarre

scenario.

Of not only the lost person Accepting Christ.

They have the lost person accepting his faith in Christ, which makes no sense.

As if they're there an angel appears before them and says God has sent me this gift of

faith to you.

Do you willingly accept the faith, you know?

Obviously that scenario never occurs.

But and I and it also stems from their misunderstanding.

They think that God will they think that we believe that God forces us against our

will To believe in him rather than the biblical

Truth that he gives us a new heart and makes us willing.

So wouldn't you say that that's a philosophical area where the Arminian or the non -reform person is

presenting a Situation that has nothing to do with

biblical exegesis, but it has to do with a philosopher philosophical definition of a gift.

Meaning that you must be willingly receiving it for it to be a gift, which is not even a true definition.

Yeah, exactly.

And so

the problem.

There's a lot of problems that we have we enter into the scriptures.

Part of it is that we want to be autonomous we want.

We don't want to give up on our own Local autonomy and I think

part of the one it don't need

God to a gift of God

saying this is I can make

sense To

be able to work their way to their God to be or what they

think God is and they want to suppress the gift of revelation and

Unrighteousness that being an idol

the Armenians desiring to have autonomy and control

of salvation.

I if I'm going to be saved I need to be the one who is the ultimate Determining factor

in my own salvation or otherwise.

I don't want a salvation.

That's I think.

It's something I'm not in control of and that's back to the fall of humanity that were fallen

human creatures.

And we're seeking to be God.

We're seeking to be autonomous.

We're seeking to be in control.

We seeking to set the terms and we we don't like giving that up.

We don't like to be in submission.

We don't have to man that a guy is in no control.

It's my My thoughts

my life now to him and and I

do believe Christianity is a relaxed rational coherent religion.

I think God doesn't have to explain everything to demand faith.

He doesn't have to explain everything for us to say

hands in the in the autonomous.

He doesn't need the world for his own existence yet.

He's able to be relatable and personable and I can have a Conversation with God

in a real meaningful way with God these these things

May appear to be contradictory philosophers.

You can't have both can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Of course pagan philosophies just rebuild both

the Trinity and so it's not irrational.

But even if I can't I can say God no,

he is God and I'm not.

Therefore I'm gonna trust that what he is saying in my feeble

finite mind.

Throw out logic the fact that my mind is too small to

comprehend all the facts that are necessary

and one thing.

An analogy that might Hopefully bring an end to the ridiculous

Responses by the non -reformed about a gift requiring Free

acceptance on the part of the one receiving it.

Just imagine a scenario where you are unconscious on an operating table and

I Donate my blood to you or an organ or even pay for the

surgery.

And you're unconscious.

You're not freely accepting these things.

So therefore you're still receiving a gift, aren't you?

Even though you're unconscious I think I think that's just one thing for them to think about but we have to go to our first

break and when we return I want to know specifically how Reformed people

may be abusing or misusing philosophy.

And not only that but making it apparently a requirement for us to rightly

understand the Word of God.

And Now we're gonna really get ourselves in trouble possibly, but if anybody has any

questions.

For dr. Jeffrey D. Johnson, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the entire program is dr Jeffrey D Johnson

president and professor of systematic theology at grace Bible theological seminary in

Conway, Arkansas.

If you have a question for us regarding the dangers of incorporating pagan philosophy with Christian

theology.

Submit it to.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us the first name at least city and state and country of residence.

And dr. Johnson before the break I said that it I'd like you to now.

Reveal to us how you are seeing.

Things that you would deem to be very problematic amongst fellow reformed Christians

that involve the.

Incorporation of pagan philosophy with Christian theology

came to integrate Aristarchean

Philosophy on the doctrine of God that

God is impersonable being Rated at

the church.

Mr. Qantas

and

that's

being read

it ends

up is who God is on this model

of God that Leads logically leads

to deism.

However, deism is incompatible with the Christian God the Bible.

So we need to correct correct it through

we need to not just embrace their terms.

There's our

healing ISM to

be in philosophy.

It's incongruent with the system

tried to mesh

these

together and

the God of air.

So you neither have the Aristotle remaining because I believe these two

systems are incoherent.

How do you do that without?

By the way, there are people out there who have a Concept known as

Chris Lom Who are trying to do the very thing that you mentioned?

But now how specifically have Reformed Christians or even other Christians

that you would deem as your brothers and sisters in Christ.

How are they specifically?

Developing false understandings of God using the framework of.

Aristotelian philosophy get

to God through a

natural science that let's study the universe.

Let's not submit to divine revelation that there is some concrete things that we know about God Before

we get into the Inquirer.

We don't need a syllogism.

We don't need God gives

us and that I believe is the

foundation.

We begin with the knowledge that there's a God and that he's the creator and that makes sense of the world around us

and we take That for granted or as a given we

don't need to

do that through the study of the universe.

So he was a scientist was in motion

caused by something else that's in motion but he can come to the conclusion

that's not an efficient explanation everything because.

There's no beginning explanation explanation

download.

And by

that

method of coming to the existence of God.

You're already defining God as a God that

acted in mobile.

Unmoved with the universe.

Charles says yeah

this he's the moving calls which may moving calls because

final calls.

The whole world is seeking to become like God is loving God aspiring to be like God.

So the

world

is

trying

to be

like

was.

Aquinas

wants

to take

that go.

Hey, let's integrate that proof into Christianity.

And but he incorporates that

unmoved

move what the

Bible doesn't teach that

readjust.

So that's

the rub of two formal

be meshed together you

begin to interpret

destination.

Which is the activity that God does.

Before

he

does another

activity

people

do this.

Well what

he does.

Then you have the very

definition of God.

He is pure actuality.

And so his

in fact,

let's

pick up

on your

comment

about

pantheism when we return from our midway break.

Please be patient with us folks.

The midway break is always longer than the other breaks because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake

City, Florida requires of us a longer break so that they can air their own public service announcements and other things.

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to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back.

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Uh, I have extensive lists spanning the globe and i've helped many people in all parts of the world find churches.

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That's also the email address where you can send in the question to dr. Jeffrey d johnson.

Uh, the questions should be on the dangers of incorporating pagan philosophy with christian theology.

Our email address is chrisarns and at gmail .com Chrisarns and at gmail .com and before I go to any listener

questions, dr. Johnson before the break you Just made a statement that had something to

do with the dangers of drawing a conclusion about god that involves

pantheism.

Go back to vulgarity.

The world

view that

we

pantheism what

was his name

forest just like the

like

the

woods and the trees and forests, right?

So you have people like him or paul tillich paul tillich Imagine

that so you have people who do not even believe that god is a existent.

Even though he doesn't believe there's an actual are peter forrest who believes that

god and the universe are essentially the same.

These are incompatible systems.

So what how do they even use the bible?

Why even?

Call yourself a christian and why would you even go to the bible?

Well what they do?

They end up taking everything that the bible would say that conrad dicks pantheism or

Paul tillich would contradict.

They turn it into a metaphor.

Everything's metaphoric.

These are not.

Obviously, he's not talking about a personal god is not actually talking about a real

being.

We know that this being is an epaulette and he doesn't really Enter into

so he doesn't exist and so the whole bible comes

and so my question is when you integrate pagan philosophy.

The ultimate question becomes who is in charge or controls the metaphors of a bible.

Now that's important.

Because we acknowledge that there are many metaphors and anthropomorphic.

The prime example is god's hand's not too short that he can't help us.

And that god has eyes these Bodily, he's

communicated as having arms and eyes, but we know that that's

anthropomorphic language.

That's a metaphor that god Is without body, you know god's without body parts or passions.

We we affirm that that god's Is a simple being without physical

speaks of that.

It's a metal body

because it's

easy when

the bible in charge

of what is metaphor so that the scriptures interpret scriptures.

So ultimately who's in charge of the metaphor is when

you try to integrate Philosophy with or the bible it

becomes the philosophy or peter forrest.

It becomes Pantheism that controls the metaphor and then our pseudo -dionysius

Who was a neoplatonism.

Or neoplatonism and sought to integrate into christianity and he essentially Said

god's beyond all of the language of scriptures is metaphorical.

And it really doesn't teach us anything Of the true nature of god as god is in himself.

And so what you

end up doing when

you take

pagan

philosophies and be

itself because

jesus saying

i'm a

door.

That's a metaphorical.

We know that everything else that we learn about who jesus

is and so I think that is a key way of

explaining how christian philosophy Has no real place.

I mean, i'm, sorry, uh pagan philosophy doesn't have a real place

now as in regard to aristotelian.

Philosophy.

Isn't this how the church of rome has sought to explain?

The idolatry or we would call it the idolatry of Transubstantiation and

that takes place in their minds in the mass, uh, which becomes.

Which makes the bread and wine objects of worship and idolatry?

Well, actually what you see

here is before

thomas chronis died and his Basically, uh 20 30 years later in his

in his life that after chronis but dun scotus was talking about um

his understanding of.

But he he is it's kind of i'm not fully convinced.

I understand His understanding of this yet.

So I don't

want nature.

He's going back and forth in the tertulian logic or

Scrutiation if it wasn't for that aristotelian.

Yes the substance and accident.

Uh.

Phraseology that is used by rome to Try to make sense,

uh to people.

To deceive them.

Obviously i'm not saying that they're intentionally deceiving them but when they see

real bread and real wine.

Right, uh, they are to believe that is really truly the body soul and

divinity of jesus christ.

Um, we have ronald in eastern suffolk county long island.

Who says.

I know that pretty much universally.

Evangelicals say that god has no body.

Now I do not Believe in the heresies of mormonism and others.

That says that god the father has a physical body.

But would it not be more appropriate than saying god does not have a body to say that.

The father and the spirit do not have bodies because jesus christ after his

ascension into heaven.

Retained his physical body and is forever the god

man.

It's best

for us

to

incarnation.

It's

fully god.

Amazing passages and it's in first john where jesus is talking to nicodemus.

But

if

in his

divine nature, he is omnipresent the

divine nature Remains the divine nature is

the divine nature.

But it is proper.

With the hypostatic union in the state that jesus is the mad god

most.

Is that I

did that i'm

done.

Well, we have an anonymous listener who says i'm remaining anonymous because I am

right in the thick of things.

Involving the disputes that you are addressing amongst reformed baptists.

I was just wondering are there specific?

Heresies or dangers of heresies.

That those whom you are critiquing today are accusing you and your

fellow believers.

Of participating in are there

it seems like the listener is asking you are the specific heresy heresies that you are.

Being accused of because of your rejection of the insistence of aristotelianism the

socratic method platonism.

Tomism all that

stuff.

I understand wanting to be anonymous.

Difficulty is is one of these conversations should be more with more humility and

more liquor and

kids and many

people out there are

just What to think and

mistreated and so I think both sides have to worry about dangers.

I mean there's and

obviously you don't want

to fall in pantheism on one side and And deism on the other side

you got these two that

enters into

real room.

That's what jesus prayed in john 17.

So you have kind of these

these this tension

and sliding to oh

I believe god is immutable that he's simple.

I I want to hold to these to

god but at the other side I'd be uncharitable and say the other

side is going to fall into uh pantheism and atheism and Deism,

I think the other side that the

godness of god and so they're

the motives is

something that that preserves the transcendence of god.

And i'm listening that i'm going to wait a minute you got to also hold to the eminence of god.

You don't want to make god into a it's not like us.

But also we don't want to go into deism.

Maybe there we're fighting this balance here.

And when we convert when we're conversating among ourselves, but it

seems to come

down to four attributes.

That's in contention say that god

is a say that he is independent and self -existent.

Both sides agree to that both sides hold to the omniscience of god.

On the presence of god.

And the goodness of god.

There's not a contention on these attributes.

It seems like the.

And that is the timelessness of god.

The simplicity of god in the ability of god and impassibility of god now the open theist

neo theist Pantheist they're all going to deny

four of those all four of them.

They deny them.

So all four of them are extra biblical again pagan philosophy influence.

And i'm like, no, I don't think those four are all together pagan influence.

I think the bible teaches the immutability of god the simplicity of god.

And the impassibility of god.

But there are strong mutability and there's a

soft version of immutability.

There's a strong view of Simplicity and a soft view and most people don't realize that

here you got thomas aquinas who had a strong view of simplicity.

But here's another catholic theologian Schoolman named john dun scotus who had a

soft view to say yet.

I believe that god's without body parts.

He's without temporal parts all three of

those.

It's not identical with his attributes and not all his attributes are identical with

another with one another there are real Logical in

the attributes of god wouldn't say that so that duns goddess is

upholding the bond simplicity.

Upholding simplicity but in a soft version of it.

Well, okay, maybe you can hold to simplicity without holding which.

I Tend to think the strong version of simplicity.

Has a hard time not collapsing

operations.

What god is.

With what god does.

No, this is the understanding that god's Love is the same as

his wrath and his mercy is the same as his wrath.

I don't even understand that.

How is when we convey the gospel to a lost person?

And we begin to speak to them about The nature of god and correct false

notions about god that they may have false presuppositions.

How do we even Explain that without people thinking that we're out of our minds.

I'm, I don't mean to insult anybody who holds that view, but I just don't even I can't even comprehend it.

When when if you say that the mercy and wrath of god are the same thing.

Well, they are.

They are extended to two different people the Elect

receive his mercy the reprobate receive his wrath and there are totally different consequences.

So I don't even understand how you could say they're the same.

Yeah,

how does a good favor of god with the wrath of god?

How are they identical in god where dun scotus? says that that's impossible and So

he's rejecting

he's not a physical and

wherever god is all amazing mind -blowing

god is is all of his attributes.

I believe they're all co -essential necessary attributes and each attribute defines the other attributes.

God's love is sovereign.

God's love is just everything that god is can be described as god's love.

But you could put any ad of god's attributes in the middle and all the attributes equally describe one another.

And so they're codependent and co -essential but to collapse them in together

is agnostic or

unknowable.

Like pseudo denisius would claim that we really don't know god and all of language of scriptures.

Is this anthropomorphic.

All of language of scriptures is metaphor and does the bible just is meant to.

To jump start our mind into the unknown and you get into some form.

I don't think that's the

picture of god that we can never know the actual god.

And so that's what I think a strong View of simplicity these consequences that

the bible teaches that

god is a spirit

that the other part of god.

Now has that actually been an accusation?

Oh, yeah, i've been to people say I don't believe in the immutability of god because I say god

God is able to act.

And he has free acts of the which I think

simplicity would lead to.

God cannot act.

You know, he has he's any acts.

Confusing.

God's god's essence does not change.

He is who he is and always will be who he is but to say that god is.

Is one thing to say that god's actions can't change.

It's quite another thing.

Operations.

And I think in the bare minimum, they're in a logical a lot

at least a logical cessation.

Coordination is a logical act prior to the act of creation at least logically.

May not have to be chronologically, but at least logically there is like one

comes before two they come together.

Maybe they're instantaneously.

Can't have one without the other but there's a logical priority to one taking place before two

and so there's Deep concepts that we have to

think that we need to have these conversations.

Rather than just it doesn't know what they're talking about and they're denying

cardinal truths of orthodoxy.

Are there outside the great tradition?

And we have to go to our final break right now will be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question for dr. Jeffrey d. Johnson, please send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back.

Don't go away.

James white of alpha and omega ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend chris arnson of iron sharpens iron radio

and I Are heading to washington dc for the g3 ministries regional conference on the theme

just thinking about the bible.

The conference will be held thursday september 15th through saturday september 17th.

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To register visit g3min .org.

That's g3min .org and click on events.

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For chris arnson's iron sharpens iron radio free pastor's luncheon.

Welcome back.

And Dr. jeffrey d johnson.

We have a question from one of the most loyal of the iron sharpens iron radio

listeners in ashborough north carolina grady.

Greetings brothers.

I would have I would have thought that this would be coming From new believers

that are coming out of cults or the catholic church.

But you said a person that is claiming to be a christian atheist Is also doing this.

Are there other christians believing? these unbelievers.

And i'm not sure exactly what grady meant by this question, but maybe you do.

Yeah

atheism christian pantheism.

To give us just it

needs

to be revelation

and

so used

together

people

like origin and

church fathers.

That begin to enter because they were

philosophy.

I

think.

And this side that's clearly

not anything

that i'm not

saying.

The bible.

I'm surely bringing those

into

the draw

out of

the

text.

As I said to sam waldron recently when I interviewed him, I hate the fact that

amongst reformed christians The word biblicist is being used as a

pejorative term as an insult, I mean.

It seems counterintuitive to somebody who believes in the

the inerrancy and infallibility and the preciousness and the

gloriousness of the scriptures to be using biblicism as a as a

negative term.

Opting it for myself.

I may just start saying I am a biblicist because.

If that if you mean by biblicism seeking to keep pagan philosophy out of theology,

then so yes I'm a

bit intended.

Well, i'm

like

wait a

minute.

They go

to

thomas

aquinas as

the explanation of that.

Well, no thomas aquinas wasn't the only like i've already said you

have don scotus who disagreed with don with thomas aquinas on simplicity and

They had a variety of understandings of the doctor of simplicity.

Let's break that down further.

I said, what do we mean by simplicity and I don't think there's this unified

page.

I think like

not all they.

Uh, they all could affirm body with body parts of passion

yet.

In fact, don't we know that some of the princeton divines did not and even charles adams spurgeon?

Not that these men were in any way infallible.

Uh, and they were you know incorrect on things being sinners.

But they are still considered universally by reformed people heroes of the faith as far as I know.

The great tradition or the tradition of the

christian faith is

not as someone saying

i'm not we're

not alone.

But it's

being

unorthodox.

I believe the other side.

He wants to uphold the deity of god and.

The immutability of god the simplicity of god the transcendence of god and these are things are I

agree with them.

We we gotta hold to our strong views of transcendence.

But we don't need to do it at the expense of god's eminence and relatability and these are

fairly recent.

Accusations being made against you and those in your camp.

There seem to be much more harmony.

Even as little as five years ago uh from or should I say between reformed

baptists in modern day history, uh, you know those that date back to the

Mid 20th century when there was a resurgence of calvinism amongst baptists.

It seems that there was a lot more harmony than there is

now my

position and differences.

Things that are difficult to understand the

more complex

and difficult it is to comprehend and understand and explain.

The more chair when we're dealing with the

doctor we're

not bending here and I don't want to

bend on what that's

a legitimate position.

I almost fall into that position that super and infallible syrians should fight one another.

Because we're dealing with some complex things.

It's easy to be wrong on two

understandings of the

doctrine.

Some form.

There's a weak form.

Okay, we're exactly.

What are we affirming in simplicity that there's no bodily parts?

There's no spatial parts.

There's no temporal parts.

Okay, we can affirm some of these things.

I'll be going that far.

And we are out of time brother.

And I want to make sure I give our listeners your websites.

Don't forget about free grace press .com free grace press .com.

Also, don't forget about gbtseminary .org

gbtseminary .org.

And also gbcconway .com which is the website for grace bible church of

conway arkansas gbcconway .com.

Thank you so much for being Such a superb guest today.

Dr. Johnson, I look forward to your frequent return to the show.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior Than you

are a sinner.