July 20, 2022 Show with Otis Buckley on “One Urban Pastor’s Journey Into the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace & Shepherding a Flock to Whom These Teachings Are New”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th

day of July, 2022.

I am thrilled to have a first -time guest on the program who I met

at a recent Banner of Truth Pastors Conference in Elizabethtown,

Pennsylvania, and after having some conversation with this brother, I knew that I wanted

to interview him, and I believe the discussion that awaits us will be quite

fascinating and edifying.

His name is Otis Buckley, and he is pastor of High Point Bible Church, NYC,

and we are addressing one urban black pastor's journey into the doctrines of sovereign grace

and shepherding a flock to whom these teachings are new.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Otis

Buckley.

Thank you for having me to

a most edifying talk.

Amen, and tell our listeners about High Point Bible Church, NYC.

Yes, and

his step

into the senior

pastor role, and it's

been where I was.

We've got a great group of folks there,

members there,

and preaching that and understanding that I've been preaching expositionally, verse by

verse, book by book, every once in a while, maybe stepping

aside to address something that was a pressing matter, but for the most part it's been expositional,

and that's been good for our congregation.

Praise God.

And how long ago did your late father -in -law found the church?

Oh, goodness, that would

have been in Yemen,

and most recently we've

been sent

in there a while.

It's likely that's where we find

ourselves today.

But nonetheless, great community.

Now, what would be a summary description of the church as your father -in -law founded it?

Well, it

definitely

was in

Costa Rica.

Yes, definitely.

Yeah, and so my upbringing would have been more, what would be the

term, classical Pentecostal.

Yes.

And, you know, have been,

prior to my arrival,

was definitely...

Yeah, and classic Pentecostalism would involve, most of the

time, five -point Arminianism, where you can actually, according to

their teaching, lose your salvation.

Yes, definitely.

It puts that individual, that person with that mindset, with that thinking, it puts

them in a burdensome situation where it's

in their daily walk that they would

get from the finished work of Christ, and the Holy Spirit really

becomes more of a tag -along rather than the power within.

And so, yeah, there's that.

Yeah, in fact, I have told some of my Pentecostal and charismatic

brothers and sisters, when we have discussions, sometimes they will

wrongly accuse me and all

non -Pentecostal, non -charismatic Christians, and especially Calvinists, of not believing

in the Holy Spirit.

And I have told them that I rely upon the Holy Spirit far more than you do,

because I don't even believe a person's own will can bring

them to a point of a saving faith prior to the Holy

Spirit bringing them new life and regenerating them, and

prior to Christ giving us a new heart.

We who are Reformed have a stronger emphasis, I believe, on the

Holy Spirit than even Pentecostals do, because I think that the tendency can be

a very superficial reason to

bring up the Holy Spirit in worship, which just typically involves how excited you are and

how enthusiastic you are and how boldly you sing and how energetically

you dance in the worship and all that.

But before we go into the actual main thrust of our interview today, which is the

journey that God placed you on, which led to you discovering and embracing

what have become known as the doctrines of sovereign grace, also nicknamed Reformed theology

and nicknamed Calvinism and nicknamed free grace, and there are other

nicknames that have been developed over the years, over the centuries.

But we have a tradition here, when we have a first -time guest on, such as yourself,

that that first -time guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony,

including the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and the kind of

providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself

and saved you.

So let's hear your story.

Sure.

So I was told

to

attend

a

Bible

study, and I had been

on the nudge to go to the

end, and I

was hearing me

come in public declaration

that I wanted salvation, and everything about

that experience would have definitely made Charles Finney happy.

But even in that, even

in

that,

that

was

motivating.

Wow.

So you're talking about the United Pentecostal Church International, or a different group within Oneness

Pentecostalism?

Well, this was, in fact, it probably would have been the largest, or the

second -largest Oneness Pentecostalist denomination,

and then there

would have

been what's

called

the One

Movement due

to oneness, I

think.

But that's kind of how, that's

why I used it.

The next day I went back to school and told all my friends about it.

I had no idea I was setting myself up to be bullied and picked on.

I knew, without even much Bible study, I knew

that there were certain checkboxes,

things that are right

became the thing that I washed out

that hatches

every other thing.

And so a lot

of that,

but things like

that.

And so

we had our

outings, and I said that amongst my peers.

It was almost like it was, you know, well, that's kind of what we do while the grown folks are,

you know, washing, but we really sort of have our own thing of trying to, you

know, sort of live this double life.

And so I found myself navigating those waters

with God

because I

don't

want to lose my salvation.

Not because, you know, I just, you know, grieved

and participate in my sin and really going against the Word and will of God, but it was

more so, you know, I just need to get back into the arc of safety, if I can

use that phrase.

Conviction on me and so forth.

And then I get into young adulthood, get any better

time in the yards,

heavy into the yards and

so forth.

And nothing really panned out.

I had a modicum of success, but nothing really sustainable that I could live off of.

And I remember sitting in my one -bedroom apartment, and I just said, Lord, what is this?

My life wasn't necessarily improving economically.

Editing sermon videos and all these kinds of things.

And I'm doing all this stuff.

So that would be the New Apostolic Revival.

Yes.

Yes, right, right.

Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.

It wasn't anything like that.

It wasn't like, you know, things like that that I know sometimes

you can find in certain Hebrews.

But this was more so getting

into the Bible and understanding certain words in their sheep.

And I'll never forget, I had this moment.

We didn't like what was going on in our lives.

We could bind it.

And if we thought Satan was behind it, we could bind him.

And if we thought there was a

thing in our life that we didn't lose, I'll make

sure it happens up here and happens

down there.

So, again, we've looked at that as a formula.

Well, this class I was taking, I realized that wasn't about that at all.

And I started getting into the Hebrew, excuse me, the Greek text.

I

realized,

wait a

minute, within the original languages.

And I'm like, wait a minute, this isn't what that means.

But it's not what that means.

What else do I have?

And one

thing,

one of

the

things

you've

got to

understand

about,

definitely,

my

curiosity to

Steve

Lawson, his

cousin,

Bode

Boncombe.

And I'm like, wait

a minute, work at night, 1 o 'clock in

the morning.

Every time they mentioned the book, I put it in my Amazon cart.

Every time there was a reference to a podcast, I'm subscribing to the podcast.

So I'm going through a whole season of just ingesting this stuff and imbibing this stuff and looking at it,

listening.

And I'm

like,

and

so growing up in

these

environments

that go 20...

Amen. Oh, I just said amen.

And when I latched onto

that, the

sovereignty of

God

and

salvation,

not

quite

the people about.

And

I'll say

this, and

there was this,

forget

this, real

today.

I

didn't

have

those

modeled

and

they

thought

about how

I

categorize

and speak

about certain

individuals.

I'm not saying that people, that everyone in those spaces aren't necessarily a fraud.

I'm saying that what was happening was not real.

It was

not, but

I didn't have the language to really articulate that.

I didn't have the theology to really get through with precision.

But I just said, no, something's not right.

One day I was

thinking of John.

See, in other words, I don't believe the way the apostle Paul was.

When I

say the Bible teaches

it, it's

going to be my

view.

Praise God.

Regardless if my best friend holds to a different one or my aunt holds to a different one.

And I love my best friend and my aunt, but I'm going to go with the word on this.

Amen.

In fact, we're going to pick up right where you left off there, because we have to go to our first station break.

And if anybody would like to send in a question for Pastor Otis, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I could readily understand that a topic like this

may evoke questions that are personal and private, because you may have people who are going

through a similar journey that Pastor Otis Buckley has gone through and is continuing to go through.

You may even have not only a member of a congregation on that journey, but a pastor just like

Pastor Otis was and is.

Well, we can understand that you'd want to remain anonymous at this point.

But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of

residence.

That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Otis Buckley right after these messages.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

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Back, if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire two -hour program

is Pastor Otis Buckley of High Point Bible Church, NYC, located

in New York City, as the name would indicate.

We are discussing one urban black pastor's journey into the doctrines of sovereign grace

and shepherding a flock to whom these teachings are new.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and your country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question

involves a personal and private matter.

And before I take any of the listener questions that have come in, I wanted to have you clarify a couple of things.

We were talking earlier about the fact that the church that you inherited, basically,

was, in its founding, a oneness Pentecostal church, an anti -Trinitarian church,

or Unitarian church.

And those churches do not comprise a monolith.

There are differences among them.

And I can remember years ago, I arranged a live,

public, moderated debate between my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries

and Robert Sabin, who at the time was one of

two of the leading apologists for oneness Pentecostalism.

Robert Sabin began in the United Pentecostal Church International, which was a much more

strict organization, denomination, one might

even call it a cult, because they believed that Trinitarians were damned.

They believed that we were actually tritheists, or as sometimes I've heard it phrased,

that we worshipped a three -headed monster.

And then, Robert Sabin eventually left that group and was,

although remaining a oneness Pentecostal, was in a much more tolerant group that had ecumenical

relationships with Trinitarians, much like T .D. Jakes and folks on the Trinity

Broadcasting Network.

So, where were you in that spectrum, or where was the church in that spectrum?

Ah, okay.

But

the

way it

seemed

to me,

I'll say

it

that way,

was

that

we

had of

who God is.

And Trinitarians—not funny, but

interesting—as I grew up, I really didn't

know the

difference,

even

just

in

that oneness

view of my

theology.

Now, there are a couple of other elements that are involved in some of the stricter oneness

Pentecostal groups.

One is the absolute necessity of immersion in water for salvation,

and the absolute necessity of speaking in tongues as the evidence for salvation,

not just as an evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but actually an evidence that is required for

salvation.

Was your upbringing including those other elements of the more rigid?

Absolutely.

Kind of a jigsaw, the way that it's

carved out,

the way the views are, and

speaking in tongues.

The second as

important

would define

that.

You had

to

have—.

Okay, well, we do have some listener questions.

I will read at least one of them before we go to our midway break, which is rapidly approaching.

We have Mike from Monroe, New York.

I have a similar testimony to Pastor Otis, and I was delivered by our Lord out of the charismatic movement

and eventually convinced that this was not biblical.

After finding the truth as it is in Jesus, I felt compelled to offer a witness to those

within the movement that this was not what Scripture taught concerning signs,

gifts, after the apostolic era, and the finalization of divine

revelation and authority of Scripture, which is the doctrine of sola scriptura in a nutshell.

Does Pastor agree that we who know the truth of this era ought to, in love,

address those who remain a part of it so that they may depart and

embrace the truth as we did?

Great question.

And there's

going to be

those

where we want

to snatch

them like brands out of the fire.

But at the same time, we want

to—maybe grappling with those distinctives in a

very—and one

of the things that I've

found—helping

the audience or the

internet, that that's going to be enough to change how a person

is thinking.

But

here's the part

that, in helping them

view the

biblical

analogy,

that that's

why

they

think they can

do that

in

the first

place.

So we're not even starting off with the same framework of how to

even read it in

the first place.

Like I have done in my own experience, you'll never land on anything

concrete.

Let's pick up where you left off, because we have to go into the midway break right now.

Let's not forget where you left off, because I think you were right in the middle of making some extremely valid points.

Thank you, Michael, in Monroe, New York.

And keep listening to the show, and keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

We're going to the midway break, folks, so please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the information as you possibly can, provided by our advertisers, so that you can more frequently

and successfully respond to our advertisers, even if that just means thanking them for sponsoring the

program, if indeed you are grateful that our advertisers exist.

Because, folks, we absolutely rely upon our advertisers and the financial support that those

advertisements provide to remain on the air.

So if you really love this show and you're grateful that there are people keeping it on the air, thank our advertisers with the contact

information that they provide.

And also send in your email to Pastor Otis Buckley at chrisarnson at gmail

.com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

Attention all men in ministry leadership.

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Before I return to Pastor Otis Buckley and our conversation about his journey into

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question for Pastor Otis Buckley on his journey

into the doctrines of sovereign grace.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your

question is a personal and private one.

Before we return to what we were last discussing, which was you were

highlighting the fact that before you understood the doctrines of sovereign grace by the mercy of God,

you and you believe most people in that category, before

being enlightened to these things, didn't even have the tools necessary

to rightly interpret the Word of God.

Before we continue with that, I want to also clarify something.

I'm sure our listener, Mike in Monroe, New York, would agree with this.

And I'm sure that Pastor Buckley agrees with this.

But we have to make sure that we are not broad -brushing all of

Pentecostals and Charismatics.

There is a wide spectrum of individuals and beliefs within that spectrum, some

which would be damnable because it's actually denying salvation by grace alone through faith

alone in Christ alone, and it is a works righteousness theology, which

Paul condemned in the book of Galatians as being no gospel at all.

But you have others who are believing in the same gospel that my guests and I

believe in, whether they be evangelical Arminians who have

a true gospel, or even those that believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace, who remain in the Charismatic

movement, such as Wayne Grudem, for instance, and

Sam Storms, for instance.

They are both thoroughgoing Calvinists.

And I have a dear friend now in heaven, Al Stein, who was an Assemblies of God bishop.

He was an overseer for all the churches in the Assembly of God on Long Island, New York, where I'm originally from.

He eventually, by God's grace, became a thoroughgoing five -point Calvinist,

and it's really a miracle that he was able to remain in ministry in the Assemblies of God.

And my friend Jim Capo, former pastor of the Massapequa Church of God on Long Island,

New York, he is a thoroughgoing five -point Calvinist.

So we can't broad brush all those folks that come under the umbrella of Pentecostal or

Charismatic, and certainly the majority do believe in the

Trinity and reject strongly the heresies of Oneness Pentecostalism.

And would you like to comment on anything I just said there, Pastor Otis?

Yeah, well,

is that

misunderstanding and misrepresenting?

Absolutely.

I'll also say this, too.

You know, it is, but

it is that the

doctrines

of God, they,

even in their

preaching, friends the other day

who are in

another, quite a few, more than

we are, and, you know, we can

say in those,

the understanding of the

sovereignty of God,

if God doesn't say, well, totally misunderstand.

I get calls all the time, messengers and inbox all the time, who are saying, hey,

you know, last week I got some questions

from the clutches

of evangelism.

Amen.

And so going back to where we left off, you were talking about, I don't know if you have anything to add to this,

that you're talking about a problem of, basically,

a lack of proper training in congregations on biblical hermeneutics,

how to even understand, to begin with, what the scriptures are

saying, if you want to pick up where you left off there.

Yeah, the

Bible does, that there are

proper hermeneutics to biblical, who

don't

quite,

revealing itself,

and

that's

when, if

we don't have

that understanding.

So we have to be wise on the front end to understand, does this person work with the proper biblical hermeneutics?

If not, then that's our story.

And I happen to know from experience, and having friendships with Pentecostal and

charismatic brothers and sisters over the decades I have been an evangelical Christian,

that there is a gross misunderstanding about what the doctrines of

sovereign grace really mean.

Going back to my friend, Pastor Al Stein, who is now in glory with

Christ for eternity, one of the ways that he was able to remain

in a pastoral leadership, and even becoming a bishop in the assembly of God,

is that when they required an annual doctrinal

statement to be signed, the issue over eternal security

was, by an amazing term of

events, you have Pastor Stein saying that he did not believe

that those could be truly saved without

producing good works as an evidence, and he called it evidential

security.

And they accepted that, his authorities in the assemblies of God,

because the term eternal security, unfortunately,

is twisted by many within evangelicalism, which

would convey the idea that you can live a completely repentant

-less life, live like Satan himself for the entirety of your

life, never repenting, and you will still go to heaven because of some

past experience at an altar call or raising your hand at Bible camp when you were

eight years old.

And many in the Pentecostal movement, especially when you're talking about old -school

Pentecostalism, would see that rightly as heresy.

And they don't understand, in the doctrines of sovereign grace, we

adhere to something called the perseverance and preservation of the saints, that although works

of men have absolutely nothing to do with us becoming a child of God, they have

nothing to do with our predestination, election, or regeneration, they are

a necessary evidence.

And so isn't that a big hurdle for many who are,

sadly, adopting a work -righteousness understanding of the gospel because

they really have perhaps never even been exposed to the right understanding of works

being a required evidence rather than a meritorious

cause of salvation?

Yeah, all right.

And it's for some

in the Pentecostal space.

So let me say this.

On the tail end, given just by my age,

but,

and

you can hear,

if he convicts us, that will then drive,

he

being

God,

that he goes one step further.

When we would have the benediction, the

benediction,

to God our Savior,

our man,

but here's

the thing.

We'll keep you from stumbling, or from

stumbling.

This is where biblical hermeneutics,

we are a liar and his truth is not in us.

That

is by

my own

ability, but I'm working

cooperatively with the Holy Spirit.

But even my cooperation in my sanctification is still powered

by the understanding that now I've got to get back to

justification.

How am I saved?

See, it's God in justification.

It's God in sanctification, and it's God in glorification.

And if I unplug any gospel, any one of those places, it throws the whole

thing off kilter, and now I'm trying to say, or I'm trying to earn rather, and I'm

saying, hey, it's up to me.

Even though I end the service with, now unto him.

So again, this biblical hermeneutics comes into right understanding.

So I may fall this

evening,

therefore no condemnation to those that

God,

see, it's again, God again.

So I've got to see God in every single aspect of

my glorification.

Contradictions that make me rethink the doctrines of sovereign grace, or should I say embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, because

the stuff wasn't adding up.

Amen.

And we have Marvin in Los Angeles, California, a first -time questioner,

who says, I am a leader in a Latino church in Los Angeles.

As a leader there, I myself am not as well -versed in Reformed

theology as I should be.

And even less so in the case of most members of the church.

The small group I'm leading now is going through Votie Baucom's

expository apologetics.

He has a chapter about the importance of creeds, confessions, and catechisms.

For most of the people in the group, it was the first time they've ever interacted with that topic

at all.

It's like we're discovering our roots for the first time, where with the American Baptist denomination,

and for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with that, the American Baptist denomination, although not every

congregation is liberal in apostate, there are quite a number of them, perhaps even most of

them in the 21st century, who would be leftist to the point of denying the

gospel and embracing homosexuality as a valid activity and so on.

That's my interjection here into Marvin's email.

I'm going through a book on Baptist history as well as getting familiar for the first time

with the 1689 Baptist Confession.

What baby steps would you take to try to get your church familiar with these foundations?

Any books you used?

And I'm going to leave his second question, or perhaps that's even his third or fourth

question, until after you respond to this.

I'm not even certain whether you are officially confessional as the church where I'm a member is, but

if you could respond to Marvin.

With regards to book recommendations,

one of

the things that's

really helpful

is

if you can provide clarification

in

an

effort...

Yeah, I'm a former Catholic, and my first hearing of those terms immediately transported me to

my Roman Catholic upbringing.

Why?

I'm not

saying that this

is the way to go.

I'm not saying that this is the best way to go.

I had to rewrite it.

Number one, I'm just shooting for something biblical, all right?

It's got to be biblical.

And that was a huge hurdle for me, and it took me probably two years to bring that about.

Which, by the way, be patient.

Be very patient.

He knows what he's doing.

He's working this out in and through you.

He has you there.

So that being said, I had to rework it.

This is in the Bible.

How to do that gracefully and graciously, because I have a church that will probably...

The Bible was very, very helpful for me.

Catechism,

talking

about certain

subjects, and that's the thing.

You've got to approach this semantically, right?

So approach this with not just sort of,

here it is, right?

Eternal security, effectual calling, these

sufficiencies,

I

believe.

And sometimes

you may just

have to

really help there.

I don't know if he's a pastor, as the lead pastor, or a teaching pastor or not.

I'm not sure what...

You don't want to do something that is irreverent or undermining to the leadership.

The Lord gives opportunity, and you find a theme in, say, the 1689 that

is being used to

substantiate

that statement, hang out there and don't attribute it

to the reference to Westminster

divines, because that sounds like a person's

divine.

And we'll have you answer Marvin's last question, or

questions, plural, when we come back from our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question to get in line with the other people still waiting, send it in immediately, because we're rapidly

running out of time.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we'll be right back.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and

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Attention all men in ministry leadership.

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Welcome back.

Pastor Otis Buckley.

When we left the discussion to go to the last break

we have a listener in Los Angeles, California, Marvin who was asking about confessions and

creeds and let me just put my two cents in here briefly that I

have found it useful over the years when people have a militant anti

-creed or confession attitude I remind them that all these things are

summaries when they are good creeds and confessions they're summaries of what the Bible

teaches and everyone has a creed or confession it's just either good

or bad in fact my friend John Thornberry who is

retired from the pastoral ministry, a very prolific writer, especially on Baptist

history he used to be in the American Baptist Association where our listener,

Marvin, is still a member and he was reading in the official

denominational magazine that the American Baptist Association does not

believe in creeds or confessions and Pastor Thornberry wrote into the editor and said, do you

realize that's a confessional statement?

You're using human words to express something that you believe that's outside of the

canonical scriptures so anybody really has a creed and confession

if they write something down about their beliefs it's just either biblically faithful or

it's in fact if you really want to take a strict anti -creedal and

anti -confessional position, your minister should ascend into the pulpit,

just read the Bible and then sit down.

You shouldn't preach or exegete the scriptures which of course the Bible teaches

you must do if you're a faithful minister and even when somebody prays, they're using their

own words.

They might be quoting scripture in the prayer, but they're using their own words.

So that's just my two cents about that.

I don't know if you have any comment on that.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Amen.

Okay, Marvin says, was there resistance and I'm assuming he's talking about your

introducing sovereign grace to the congregation where you are especially from those who might be

more accustomed to a more emotional approach to church and are suspicious of too much doctrine.

Let me just throw in my two cents here.

I think that we in the Reformed Church could use a little more emotion in our worship service.

But anyway, if you want to pick up where Marvin's question ends there.

Yeah, oftentimes the thought is

I would definitely agree with you on that.

At the same time is to

hate things unless

they deny the

inerrancy of scripture, then

if they can see

helping bring,

if they you know, deny the

inerrancy, the infallibility because

that can be another

inerrancy.

Usually most reasonable people in the congregation will go, oh, I see it.

It's right there.

And that helps with them receiving it and moving forward with it.

Now, does there continue to be or was there any resistance from your congregation I think is what he's

specifically asking?

I'm sorry.

Wow.

Amen.

Okay, thank you Marvin.

And since you're a first time questioner, send me your full mailing address in Los Angeles, California because you've won a free New

American Standard Bible.

Compliments of the publishers of the NASB and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service, cvbbs .com.

We'll be shipping that Bible out to you if you provide us with your full mailing address.

We have time for one last question.

Alex in Winter Park, Florida.

Can you ask Pastor Buckley how he navigates showing love and grace for members of his congregation

that might still be trying to understand the doctrines of grace while not being domineering and pushing

the position on the members of the church individually?

Yeah, I really

need to go

in a cage.

But because I counsel I

pray with individuals and

deal with them and comfort

them

in

various

ways above

all.

But if I came

and

expect...

I believe that was Benjamin Franklin who said that, if I'm not mistaken.

Was it?

Yeah, I think it was Benjamin Franklin that said that about Whitefield, why he keeps going to hear him preach.

The Holy Spirit really helps both to hear and meet the preacher.

And we are out of time, brother.

And I definitely want to have you come back.

I want to make sure our listeners have your website.

HPBibleChurch .org.

HP for high point.

BibleChurch .org.

Thank you so much, Pastor Otis Buckley for being a superb guest.

Thank you everyone who took the time to write in questions and those of you who listened.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives, Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.