July 20, 2022 Show with Otis Buckley on “One Urban Pastor’s Journey Into the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace & Shepherding a Flock to Whom These Teachings Are New”

The Program Introduction and the Theme of Iron Sharpens Iron

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Introducing Otis Buckley and His Journey Toward Sovereign Grace

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th day of July, 2022.

I am thrilled to have a first-time guest on the program who I met at a recent Banner of Truth Pastors Conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, and after having some conversation with this brother, I knew that I wanted to interview him, and I believe the discussion that awaits us will be quite fascinating and edifying.

His name is Otis Buckley, and he is pastor of High Point Bible Church, NYC, and we are addressing one urban black pastor's journey into the doctrines of sovereign grace and shepherding a flock to whom these teachings are new.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Otis Buckley.

Thank you for having me to a most edifying talk.

Amen, and tell our listeners about High Point Bible Church, NYC.

Yes, and his step into the senior pastor role, and it's been where I was. We've got a great group of folks there, members there, and preaching that and understanding that I've been preaching expositionally, verse by verse, book by book, every once in a while, maybe stepping aside to address something that was a pressing matter, but for the most part it's been expositional, and that's been good for our congregation.

Praise God. And how long ago did your late father-in-law found the church?

Oh, goodness, that would have been in Yemen, and most recently we've been sent in there a while. It's likely that's where we find ourselves today. But nonetheless, great community.

Now, what would be a summary description of the church as your father-in-law founded it?

Well, it definitely was in Costa Rica.

Yes, definitely.

Yeah, and so my upbringing would have been more, what would be the term, classical Pentecostal.

Yes.

Pentecostalism, Assurance, and the Holy Spirit

And, you know, have been, prior to my arrival, was definitely...

Yeah, and classic Pentecostalism would involve, most of the time, five-point Arminianism, where you can actually, according to their teaching, lose your salvation.

Yes, definitely. It puts that individual, that person with that mindset, with that thinking, it puts them in a burdensome situation where it's in their daily walk that they would get from the finished work of Christ, and the Holy Spirit really becomes more of a tag-along rather than the power within.

And so, yeah, there's that.

Yeah, in fact, I have told some of my Pentecostal and charismatic brothers and sisters, when we have discussions, sometimes they will wrongly accuse me and all non-Pentecostal, non-charismatic Christians, and especially Calvinists, of not believing in the Holy Spirit.

And I have told them that I rely upon the Holy Spirit far more than you do, because I don't even believe a person's own will can bring them to a point of a saving faith prior to the Holy Spirit bringing them new life and regenerating them, and prior to Christ giving us a new heart.

We who are Reformed have a stronger emphasis, I believe, on the Holy Spirit than even Pentecostals do, because I think that the tendency can be a very superficial reason to bring up the Holy Spirit in worship, which just typically involves how excited you are and how enthusiastic you are and how boldly you sing and how energetically you dance in the worship and all that.

But before we go into the actual main thrust of our interview today, which is the journey that God placed you on, which led to you discovering and embracing what have become known as the doctrines of sovereign grace, also nicknamed Reformed theology and nicknamed Calvinism and nicknamed free grace, and there are other nicknames that have been developed over the years, over the centuries.

But we have a tradition here, when we have a first-time guest on, such as yourself, that that first-time guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony, including the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and the kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself and saved you.

So let's hear your story.

Sure. So I was told to attend a Bible study, and I had been on the nudge to go to the end, and I was hearing me come in public declaration that I wanted salvation, and everything about that experience would have definitely made Charles Finney happy.

But even in that, even in that, that was motivating.

Wow. So you're talking about the United Pentecostal Church International, or a different group within Oneness Pentecostalism?

Well, this was, in fact, it probably would have been the largest, or the second-largest Oneness Pentecostalist denomination, and then there would have been what's called the One Movement due to oneness, I think.

But that's kind of how, that's why I used it. The next day I went back to school and told all my friends about it. I had no idea I was setting myself up to be bullied and picked on. I knew, without even much Bible study, I knew that there were certain checkboxes, things that are right became the thing that I washed out that hatches every other thing.

And so a lot of that, but things like that. And so we had our outings, and I said that amongst my peers. It was almost like it was, you know, well, that's kind of what we do while the grown folks are, you know, washing, but we really sort of have our own thing of trying to, you know, sort of live this double life.

And so I found myself navigating those waters with God because I don't want to lose my salvation. Not because, you know, I just, you know, grieved and participate in my sin and really going against the Word and will of God, but it was more so, you know, I just need to get back into the arc of safety, if I can use that phrase.

Conviction on me and so forth. And then I get into young adulthood, get any better time in the yards, heavy into the yards and so forth. And nothing really panned out. I had a modicum of success, but nothing really sustainable that I could live off of.

And I remember sitting in my one-bedroom apartment, and I just said, Lord, what is this? My life wasn't necessarily improving economically. Editing sermon videos and all these kinds of things. And I'm doing all this stuff.

So that would be the New Apostolic Revival.

Yes.

Yes, right, right.

Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. It wasn't anything like that. It wasn't like, you know, things like that that I know sometimes you can find in certain Hebrews. But this was more so getting into the Bible and understanding certain words in their sheep.

And I'll never forget, I had this moment. We didn't like what was going on in our lives. We could bind it. And if we thought Satan was behind it, we could bind him. And if we thought there was a thing in our life that we didn't lose, I'll make sure it happens up here and happens down there.

So, again, we've looked at that as a formula. Well, this class I was taking, I realized that wasn't about that at all. And I started getting into the Hebrew, excuse me, the Greek text. I realized, wait a minute, within the original languages.

And I'm like, wait a minute, this isn't what that means. But it's not what that means. What else do I have? And one thing, one of the things you've got to understand about, definitely, my curiosity to Steve Lawson, his cousin, Bode Boncombe.

And I'm like, wait a minute, work at night, 1 o 'clock in the morning. Every time they mentioned the book, I put it in my Amazon cart. Every time there was a reference to a podcast, I'm subscribing to the podcast.

So I'm going through a whole season of just ingesting this stuff and imbibing this stuff and looking at it, listening. And I'm like, and so growing up in these environments that go 20...

Amen. Oh, I just said amen.

And when I latched onto that, the sovereignty of God and salvation, not quite the people about. And I'll say this, and there was this, forget this, real today. I didn't have those modeled and they thought about how I categorize and speak about certain individuals.

I'm not saying that people, that everyone in those spaces aren't necessarily a fraud. I'm saying that what was happening was not real. It was not, but I didn't have the language to really articulate that.

I didn't have the theology to really get through with precision. But I just said, no, something's not right. One day I was thinking of John. See, in other words, I don't believe the way the apostle Paul was.

When I say the Bible teaches it, it's going to be my view.

Praise God.

Regardless if my best friend holds to a different one or my aunt holds to a different one. And I love my best friend and my aunt, but I'm going to go with the word on this.

Amen. In fact, we're going to pick up right where you left off there, because we have to go to our first station break. And if anybody would like to send in a question for Pastor Otis, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I could readily understand that a topic like this may evoke questions that are personal and private, because you may have people who are going through a similar journey that Pastor Otis Buckley has gone through and is continuing to go through.

You may even have not only a member of a congregation on that journey, but a pastor just like Pastor Otis was and is. Well, we can understand that you'd want to remain anonymous at this point. But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Otis Buckley right after these messages.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here. Excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C. for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible.

The conference will be held Thursday, September 15th, through Saturday, September 17th. And I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co-hosts of the Just Thinking podcast.

To register, visit g3min .org. That's g3min .org. And click on Events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C. So join me and Chris Arnzen September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C. for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference.

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study? So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

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May God bless you.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world. Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed.

Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

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Oneness Pentecostalism, Trinitarianism, and the Church's Background

Back, if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire two-hour program is Pastor Otis Buckley of High Point Bible Church, NYC, located in New York City, as the name would indicate. We are discussing one urban black pastor's journey into the doctrines of sovereign grace and shepherding a flock to whom these teachings are new.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and your country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And before I take any of the listener questions that have come in, I wanted to have you clarify a couple of things. We were talking earlier about the fact that the church that you inherited, basically, was, in its founding, a oneness Pentecostal church, an anti-Trinitarian church, or Unitarian church.

And those churches do not comprise a monolith. There are differences among them. And I can remember years ago, I arranged a live, public, moderated debate between my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and Robert Sabin, who at the time was one of two of the leading apologists for oneness Pentecostalism.

Robert Sabin began in the United Pentecostal Church International, which was a much more strict organization, denomination, one might even call it a cult, because they believed that Trinitarians were damned.

They believed that we were actually tritheists, or as sometimes I've heard it phrased, that we worshipped a three-headed monster. And then, Robert Sabin eventually left that group and was, although remaining a oneness Pentecostal, was in a much more tolerant group that had ecumenical relationships with Trinitarians, much like T .D. Jakes and folks on the Trinity Broadcasting Network.

So, where were you in that spectrum, or where was the church in that spectrum?

Ah, okay. But the way it seemed to me, I'll say it that way, was that we had of who God is. And Trinitarians—not funny, but interesting—as I grew up, I really didn't know the difference, even just in that oneness view of my theology.

Now, there are a couple of other elements that are involved in some of the stricter oneness Pentecostal groups. One is the absolute necessity of immersion in water for salvation, and the absolute necessity of speaking in tongues as the evidence for salvation, not just as an evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but actually an evidence that is required for salvation.

Was your upbringing including those other elements of the more rigid?

Absolutely. Kind of a jigsaw, the way that it's carved out, the way the views are, and speaking in tongues. The second as important would define that. You had to have—.

A Listener Question About Witnessing to Charismatics and the Need for Biblical Hermeneutics

Okay, well, we do have some listener questions. I will read at least one of them before we go to our midway break, which is rapidly approaching. We have Mike from Monroe, New York. I have a similar testimony to Pastor Otis, and I was delivered by our Lord out of the charismatic movement and eventually convinced that this was not biblical.

After finding the truth as it is in Jesus, I felt compelled to offer a witness to those within the movement that this was not what Scripture taught concerning signs, gifts, after the apostolic era, and the finalization of divine revelation and authority of Scripture, which is the doctrine of sola scriptura in a nutshell.

Does Pastor agree that we who know the truth of this era ought to, in love, address those who remain a part of it so that they may depart and embrace the truth as we did?

Great question. And there's going to be those where we want to snatch them like brands out of the fire. But at the same time, we want to—maybe grappling with those distinctives in a very—and one of the things that I've found—helping the audience or the internet, that that's going to be enough to change how a person is thinking.

But here's the part that, in helping them view the biblical analogy, that that's why they think they can do that in the first place. So we're not even starting off with the same framework of how to even read it in the first place.

Like I have done in my own experience, you'll never land on anything concrete.

Let's pick up where you left off, because we have to go into the midway break right now. Let's not forget where you left off, because I think you were right in the middle of making some extremely valid points.

Thank you, Michael, in Monroe, New York. And keep listening to the show, and keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We're going to the midway break, folks, so please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the information as you possibly can, provided by our advertisers, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers, even if that just means thanking them for sponsoring the program, if indeed you are grateful that our advertisers exist.

Because, folks, we absolutely rely upon our advertisers and the financial support that those advertisements provide to remain on the air. So if you really love this show and you're grateful that there are people keeping it on the air, thank our advertisers with the contact information that they provide.

And also send in your email to Pastor Otis Buckley at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

The Midshow Advertisements and Calls for Support

Attention all men in ministry leadership. You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring me, James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker.

Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books. Donated by Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom, personally selected by Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris, if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com. That's solid-ground-books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please never forget, folks, to make solid-ground-books .com your very first stop for all your gift-giving needs, and also to replenish your own library. That's solid-ground-books .com. Purchase frequently, purchase generously, and always mention that you heard about them from Chris Harnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.