December 4, 2020 Show with Jay Seegert on “Dinosaurs & the Bible”

Iron Sharpens Iron and the Program’s Purpose

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fourth day of December 2020.

And I am thrilled to have back on the program a brother who did an excellent job the last two times he was on. I'm looking forward to the same today and expect nothing less after the demonstration of his brilliance in the field that he serves in.

Today we have Jay Seegert returning to the program, and Jay holds degrees in both physics and engineering technology from the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater and John Brown University, respectively.

He is an international speaker and author, a keynote speaker and managing director for the Starting Point Project, and ambassador and board of directors member for Logos Research Associates, and a representative speaker for Ratio Christi.

Today he's going to be addressing dinosaurs and the Bible. So if you have any kids, I'm sure, especially if they're boys, they're going to love to hear this interview today. And if you don't have them in your own home, call your family, friends, and loved ones who do have kids and have them listen via live streaming anywhere in the world at ironsharpensironradio .com.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jay Seegert.

Appreciate the opportunity.

And why don't you tell our listeners about the Starting Point Project?

Sure. Starting Point Project is all about starting points. And when you think about it, everybody, no matter who, there's a starting point somewhere. For Christians, we start with the belief that God served us at that starting point.

That worldview defined science action. You can easily get into a conversation point. What have you charted? Quite sure that they have one. They never thought about it. And when they do, they'll come up with something.

And then you can just logic what made you choose that for a starting point. And why are you confident that that will help you into these nice conversations? But you get people to, because it's everything else, you've got to use what you already believe.

For 35 years of, you don't need to argue about that so much. The deeper discussion comes in as to how it all gets back to their starting point. So that's the basis for the name of our ministry.

Yeah.

It's really a matter of presuppositions on exactly what you just said, starting points. Uh, what, uh, kind of lenses are you viewing? Uh, facts through, uh, and, uh, let me give our listeners our email address in the event that they'd like to join us with their own questions today.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you have a disagreement over your, over something we're discussing with your own pastor, uh, perhaps he is an old earth creationist, although, uh, much of what we're talking about today, we would be in full agreement with our old earth creationist brethren.

Uh, not all, but, uh, much, I'm sure. Uh, or you might be even a member of a very liberal, uh, congregation and denomination where the, uh, the pastor or the leadership there are full-blown Darwinian evolutionists.

Uh, whatever the case may be, and you don't want to identify yourself, we understand that. But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Dinosaurs in the Bible and the Meaning of the Word Dinosaur

Uh, well, since you are a biblically based ministry and you are a believer in Christ Jesus who believes in the scripture, who believes in the inerrancy of scripture, who believe that the scripture is sufficient and God breathed, why don't we find the word dinosaur in the.

Bible?

Yeah, there's in the Bible. Uh, I've been speaking on it occasionally from time to time, especially if they want me to address a younger audience.

Oh, actually we have a dinosaur who has claimed to have won the election.

You could look at it that way. Uh, yeah, it's just, I'm, you know, it's a central focus. The whole time is going to be the, does the Bible say about this topic? And so what I did a few years ago, any time to always say, hold on a second, let me see what going to be our philosophy about this topic.

Kind of for you to conclude, we're going to be saying about dinosaurs from the Bible. It's a solid translation. I know some people struggle with it because it sounds like Shakespeare Bible because we're dinosaur when it didn't even exist.

But you do find the word dry it off.

Now, it's interesting that you, uh, defined it, uh, the word dinosaur as involving a, uh, typically, uh, I don't know how you phrase it. Maybe you want to repeat that. Something about a lizard. I'm sorry.

I don't remember the exact phrasing that you use. I know that the word is terrible.

Yeah, the dragon, but there would be a strike.

Okay. Right, right.

Um, because there are, uh, from what I understand and props possibly even from you, but other, uh, creationist scientists that I've had on this program, uh, there, there has to be something specific about the anatomy of one of these reptiles or reptile like creatures for it to fit in the category of a dinosaur.

And the reason why that even came up is that I asked the question to another guest, maybe even you, uh, why, uh, we don't have, we, we don't view alligators and crocodiles as proof that dinosaurs and men roamed the earth together because they are dinosaurs.

I mean, even the secular scientists say that alligators and crocodiles, uh, at least a very, very close, uh, cousin of them existed in the day of the dinosaurs. Even they agree with that. And therefore, since they still exist, why would it be so astonishing that dinosaurs and men roamed the earth together?

And I was told that a crocodile and an alligator are not considered, uh, in the category of dinosaurs, primarily because of their, their legs and the way they walk, uh, that the legs are more like, uh, horses or cattle or other four legged creatures that walk, uh, with their legs, uh, extended from the ground rather than crawling on their belly.

Is that something, uh, I'm probably sloppily wording that, but is that close to what, uh, the truth is on the matter?

Yeah, that's the main differentiation. When you picture a crocodile, the legs are kind of going off to the side and they kind of, was right there because it was his museum into a dark hallway. And that's where they kind of got him in a janitor's closet in a sense, kind of moved him out of the way because he's a Christian and they didn't really want to promote that idea, but they want in center playing all these, all these animals got here.

So it is interesting, but it's interesting.

And it's literally means terrible lizard, right?

Seeing around us now, you weren't quite sure what it was found more and more about dinosaurs. When you go to museums, that's their scientists, it's their best guess as solutionary history of it.

Uh, one of the reasons that I remember to ask about the distinction between alligators, crocodiles, and dinosaurs is that just recently I saw on the news, it was probably about a week ago, uh, in Florida, there was a golf course, uh, they had film footage of a golf course in Florida after a rainstorm and this huge alligator, uh, I think they said it was between 10 and 12 foot long and it was walking along the golf course and he was not walking close to the ground with his belly dragging along the ground.

His legs were more, more resembled the way a horse or a cow would walk the way that the legs were straight. I was, I don't know if I had ever seen that before. Uh, and perhaps it just jolted at me because of the discussion I had previously about the reason why they're not considered dinosaurs.

But it just struck me that it was not walking the way, uh, it wasn't crawling the way that you normally see them in footage. Well, at least, at least in Florida.

Sure, yeah.

When Dinosaurs Were Created and What They Ate

Uh, well, uh, tell us, uh, as far as the biblical account is concerned, when were the dinosaurs created?

Sure. Again, the Bible doesn't mention, he created everything in six days, and I know I helped them better, better understand a certain to be majority Christian, including many. Let me tell you more about people need to make up their own standing of scripture and not say art.

So that's what I believe. And listen to all these views through the investigator on day six. So according to the Bible, dinosaurs would have been created on day six.

Now, as far as what they ate, uh, what do you know about the dinosaurs? Were they all carnivores, meat eaters, or was there more variety?

Sure. That's another one of those things you meter. And I said, throughout the talk, we're going to be hitting topics that sound crazy. What they ate. There's no way the T-Rex was a vegetarian and they point of a T-Rex tooth presentation.

Those teeth are just a little bit shorter than Carly Simons.

They're up there. They're largely vegetarian. Yeah. They can eat meat. Massive teeth. Looks like a meteor from the teeth, but no, it's a hippo. Largely vegetarian. And then the last one got actually very sharp teeth to get a work.

You find one through three. It's roughly almost 1700 years after creation. You know, things got so bad on the earth. God said, that's it. I'm going to wipe them out. He sends a humming off the arc in this perfect creation.

And God created creatures to be able to live in a fallen world and to give them the ability and permission to eat meat. And he designed some of them to also be able to do that, which includes to go back to what went off the arc.

It's mankind. Well, we're using our minds and God wants us to. What does that tell us? It tells us before the flood, the creatures were not afraid of people and people weren't afraid of them because they were all vegetarian and were eating a different economy going forward when they're coming off the arc.

Now that may have just flown over the heads of some of our listeners, but there was something very crucial in what you said. Not that all of it isn't important, but there's something extremely crucial.

In fact, this is where the divide comes in between old earth and young earth creationists is that we as young earth creationists believe there was no death before the fall of Adam. And that would include the death of animals.

Am I right? Isn't this why this is such an important fact that you're bringing up?

It is huge. And when people get older, it is scientifically based at the actual age and that is death. It's not really about age. It's about when and how did death.

And in fact, we're going to have you pick up right at that very important point when we come back from our break.

Sure.

This is our first break, folks. And if you'd like to join us on the air, again, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jay Seeger and dinosaurs and the Bible right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Truck and Zion Radio. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire program is Jay Siegert, who is the managing director for the Starting Point Project.

And we are discussing dinosaurs and the Bible. And if you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And Jay, right before the break, you were beginning to address why it is such an important issue that we believe as Christians that death did not take place prior to the fall, which is very much connected to the fact that all of God's creatures were vegetarian initially before the fall.

Yeah, very important to just come up with something like that on the high ground, and they're the ones who are really open on the surface. But God has certainly used that process, simulated over hundreds of millions of years.

The geologic column, you know, you look at the Grand Canyon, all that represents hundreds of millions of years of Earth's remainder. But dinosaurs were living back then in those times and dying and getting when the Earth is done, apparently God created a garden on top of the whole thing.

And in Plunk's Adam and Eve in there, wouldn't be, they would be living on top of a graveyard of billion across was that Adam's sin brought death. And so that's by end of that, if you say, well, God used a big bang and the Earth is very old.

On the other hand, we're in the garden and 1500 years later, God says, it's so easy pain and suffering because all that was going on prior to that. And they got buried there, we were going on.

And how do you answer. The Christian who is an old Earth creationist, who says that there is nothing in the Hebrew of the Old Testament that compels us absolutely to believe that the death that came into the world in Genesis after the fall was not exclusively in regard to the death of man and not the death of animals, which could have been occurring for thousands of years prior to that.

Sure. Well, again, when you look at the, they try to get a feel for what, what actually narrative saying that, you know, they weren't really people, but we'll just call them Adam and Eve. No, it's talking about two real people.

Jesus is referred to as being the last Adam. So when you take the Bible as a whole, you find in already been physical death or anything. This is something that drastically changed, but I'll tell you when it's close, you're going to see, and one of the things going to create a new heaven was in the beginning.

If the original creation before Adam and Eve had death, bringing in animals, dying in bloodshed and all that, it's going to be like on into eternity because he's going to restore back. Oh yeah, he's coming back.

Is he going to take Billy? Oh no, he's going to do it miraculously. Why couldn't he have done that to begin with? Just like you said. So they kind of contradict their own logic. They're more than willing to let God recreate everything miraculously at the end, but they won't let him do that to begin with.

Well, in fairness, and I'm sure you would likely agree with this, the Christians who are old earth creationists would not say that God could not have done it instantly. They just don't believe the evidence shows that.

Those that are scientists who stick with an old earth view don't believe that the evidence shows that. I don't know if they would. I'm pretty certain that, especially since there are many in that camp that theologically would be nearly identical to you and I, but who just disagree over these scientific issues, and I'm not saying that they're not important.

I'm just saying that they would concur that God could have done it in a split second, but chose not to. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Oh, definitely. I don't have friends who know how we understand scripture, but I think one of the most more naturalistic processes in millions of years for the layman typically drives them to study scripture and find a defense scripturally that would back that up.

Let's go right to science. If you did not have science, you'd have to think that the Israelites would believe that, and God was kind of cringing. He's like, uh, you know, they're going to... Because that even means today, unless you have one of the leading scientists around you to help explain what it really means, discovering with modern science.

And we have to go to our midway break right now. And please be patient with us, folks, because it is a longer than normal break. Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida is required of us, has required of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the FCC to use this middle break to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida.

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Cloning Dinosaurs, Carbon-14, and Soft Tissue in Fossils

Chrisarnson at gmail .com for our guest Jay Siegert. We'll be right back with more of our discussion on dinosaurs after these messages from our sponsors. Iron Trip and Zion Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one-time gift, or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.