December 4, 2020 Show with Jay Seegert on “Dinosaurs & the Bible”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fourth day of December 2020, and I am thrilled to have back on the program a brother who did an excellent job the last two times he was on.

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I'm looking forward to the same today and expect nothing less after the demonstration of his brilliance in the field that he serves in.

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Today we have Jay Siegert returning to the program, and Jay holds degrees in both physics and engineering technology from the

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University of Wisconsin -Whitewater and John Brown University, respectively. He is an international speaker and author, a keynote speaker and managing director for the

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Starting Point Project and ambassador and board of directors member for Logos Research Associates, and a representative speaker for Ratio Christi.

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Today he's going to be addressing dinosaurs and the Bible, so if you have any kids,

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I'm sure, especially if they're boys, they're going to love to hear this interview today, and if you don't have them in your own home, call your family, friends, and loved ones who have kids and have them listen via live streaming anywhere in the world at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jay Siegert. Hey Chris, it's great to be on the program again.

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I appreciate the opportunity. And why don't you tell our listeners about the Starting Point Project.

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Sure. Starting Point Project is all about starting points, and when you think about it, everybody, no matter who they are, whether they are

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Christian, Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, doesn't matter, everyone starts somewhere with their beliefs.

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It's impossible not to start somewhere. For Christians, we start with the belief that God certainly exists and the

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Bible is the Word of God, and then we use that foundation, that starting point, that worldview, to then define everything else around us, what science actually is, how it works, history, ethics, morality, philosophy.

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All those things are defined by our starting point, and you can easily get into a conversation with someone else and say,

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Hey, what is your starting point? What have you chosen? And again, a lot of people aren't quite sure if they have one.

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They never thought about it, and when they do, they'll come up with something, and then you can just logically ask them, What made you choose that for a starting point, and why are you confident that that will help you best interpret the entire world around you?

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And you get into these nice conversations that don't have to be combative, but you get people to think a little bit deeper, because it's the starting points that we have that we use to interpret everything else.

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Facts don't speak for themselves. You've got to use what you already believe to look at some new facts to say,

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Hey, this is what I think that means. And so, in my experience over 35 years of being in apologetics, it's really not so much the facts.

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We all have the same facts, so we don't really need to argue about that so much. The deeper discussion comes in as to how they are interpreting these facts, which all gets back to their starting point.

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So that's the basis for the name of our ministry. Yeah, it's really a matter of presuppositions on exactly what you just said, starting points.

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What kind of lenses are you viewing facts through?

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True. And let me give our listeners our email address in the event that they'd like to join us with their own questions today.

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chrisarnzen at gmail .com. That's chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence. If you live outside the

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USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you have a disagreement over something we're discussing with your own pastor.

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Perhaps he is an old earth creationist, although much of what we're talking about today we would be in full agreement with our old earth creationist brethren.

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Not all, but much, I'm sure. Or you might be even a member of a very liberal congregation and denomination where the pastor or the leadership there are full -blown

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Darwinian evolutionists. Whatever the case may be, and you don't want to identify yourself, we understand that.

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But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Well, since you are a biblically -based ministry and you are a believer in Christ Jesus who believes in the scripture, who believes in the inerrancy of scripture, who believe that the scripture is sufficient and God breathed, why don't we find the word dinosaur in the

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Bible? Yeah, it's a good question, and I'll preface that with saying that this topic in general, dinosaurs in the

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Bible, I've been speaking on it occasionally from time to time, especially if they want me to address a younger audience that found their lives captivated by the topic of dinosaurs, and you can use that to talk about scripture.

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I used to feel kind of cheesy talking about it, like, oh, this just doesn't come across as a very important topic, and with everything going on around us with the election and with COVID, people might be thinking, why in the world are we talking about dinosaurs?

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Well, actually, we have a dinosaur who has claimed to have won the election. You could look at it that way.

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Yeah, it's just, that's the reason I'm explaining all this, is like, okay, why are we taking time?

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You know, is it worth people's time? It's going to be worth your time, because even though we're going to be talking about dinosaurs,

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I kind of facetiously say we're not going to be talking about dinosaurs. Yes, we will talk about dinosaurs, but the central focus the whole time is going to be the authority of God's Word.

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What does the Bible say about this topic? And so, what I did a few years ago, anytime someone wanted me to talk about dinosaurs,

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I turned it into an opportunity to train people, whether they're grade schoolers or older, that no matter what topic anyone ever brings up, whether it's creation, evolution, transgenderism, gay marriage, global warming, dinosaurs, any whatever topic they bring up, we as Christians should always say, hold on a second, let me see what

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God's Word says, because it really shouldn't be our philosophy versus theirs. We should just simply be helping them understand what does

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God say about this topic. If they have a problem with what's presented, it's not really with us, it's what's written in God's Word.

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So I use the topic of dinosaurs to do the same thing. Someone brings up dinosaurs, you say, hold on a second, let me see if the

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Bible says anything about it. And I believe if the Bible says absolutely nothing about a topic, you're free to conclude whatever you want.

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But if the Bible says something, that has to be your starting point, and everything else you believe has to fit congruently with what the

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Bible does share. And so, throughout this interview, we're going to be saying, in essence, what does the

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Bible say about this particular question? And you ask, why isn't the word dinosaur in the

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Bible? That's one of the most basic questions, and so I'll start out with that right away. It's interesting, people say, you can't go to the

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Bible on this one, because the Bible doesn't even talk about dinosaurs. And I always tell them, I said, you know what, you would be surprised how much we can actually learn about dinosaurs from the

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Bible, even though you may not see the word dinosaur in your Bible. And the reason being,

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I grew up with the King James Version, I still use it, I like it, I think it's a solid translation.

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I know some people struggle with it, because it sounds like Shakespeare, because it's about when it was translated in 1611.

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But I don't expect to find the word dinosaur in my Bible, because the word dinosaur wasn't invented for another 230 years after the translation of the

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King James. So how in the world could they possibly have used the word dinosaur when it didn't even exist?

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But you do find the word dragon, I think it's 17 or 27 times in the

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King James, because that was a word that was used quite often in history to describe creatures that were large reptiles, and probably what we would call dinosaurs today.

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So I don't find the word dinosaur in my Bible, because it didn't even exist yet. I didn't find the word, you know, cell phone or microwave or some other terms too, that didn't come along until later.

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So that's typically why you're not going to see that word. Some of the newer translations may have it, but certainly something like the

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King James wouldn't be expected to. Now it's interesting that you defined it, the word dinosaur, as involving a typically,

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I don't know how you phrase it, maybe you want to repeat that, something about a lizard. I'm sorry,

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I don't remember the exact phrasing that you used. I know that the word is terrible. People in history would use the word dragon to describe a reptile -like creature, something different, larger, or whatever, but they would be describing things that were reptile -like, but they were using the word dragon.

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Okay, right, right. Because there are, from what I understand, and possibly even from you, but other creationist scientists that I've had on this program, there has to be something specific about the anatomy of one of these reptiles or reptile -like creatures for it to fit in the category of a dinosaur.

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And the reason why that even came up is that I asked a question to another guest, maybe even you, why we don't have, we don't view alligators and crocodiles as proof that dinosaurs and men roamed the earth together because they are dinosaurs.

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I mean, even the secular scientists say that alligators and crocodiles, at least a very, very close cousin of them, existed in the day of the dinosaurs, even they agree with that.

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And therefore, since they still exist, why would it be so astonishing that dinosaurs and men roamed the earth together?

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And I was told that a crocodile and an alligator are not considered in the category of dinosaurs primarily because of their legs and the way they walk, that the legs are more like horses or cattle or other four -legged creatures that walk with their legs extended from the ground rather than crawling on their belly.

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Is that something, I'm probably sloppily wording that, but is that close to what the truth is on the matter?

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Yeah, that's the main differentiation. When you picture a crocodile, the legs are kind of going off to the side and they kind of crawl around on their belly, where you picture a horse, the legs are going straight down to the ground and legs are underneath them and that's what you typically see with a brachiosaur and T -Rex and all that, the legs are extending straight down from the body to the ground rather than out to the side, so that's the major differentiation between what we would just say is a normal reptile and what would be considered a dinosaur.

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And the word dinosaur was actually invented by Sir Richard Owen in 1841. He was a very brilliant scientist, he was the actual founding member of the

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Natural History Museum over in London and he was the founder of it and he was a very strong Christian, so he's the one who actually gave us that word dinosaur.

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What's interesting is, I was speaking over in the UK, had a chance to go to that museum and you go into the main room and there's this huge set of a staircase going up to the second floor and there's a statue there of Darwin sitting in this chair, well that's where Sir Richard Owen used to be, used to be, his statue was right there because it was his museum and now you have to go upstairs into a dark hallway and that's where they kind of got him in a janitor's closet in a sense, kind of moved him out of the way because he's a

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Christian and they didn't really want to promote that idea, but they want everyone to come in to see all these animals around them and see

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Darwin, front and center, which supposedly explained how all these animals got here, so it is interesting, but it's interesting that a

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Christian was the one who came up with the word dinosaur to begin with. And it literally means terrible lizard, right?

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Yeah, terrible lizard because they discovered bones and like, wow, we've not seen this before, this doesn't match up with anything we're seeing around us now, you weren't quite sure what it was and then they realized, wow, there were a class of animals that we know we don't see walking around now, but they apparently did exist and then they found more and more, you know, over the years now we've discovered quite a few and more of the bones to put the skeletons together and try to guess what the flesh might have looked like and so it's, there's a lot of things about dinosaurs when you go to museums that's true and it's the, even the secular scientists, it's their best guess as to, you know, what it may have looked like, but sometimes they go out of their way to promote an evolutionary history of it versus something that's straightforward, they read into it something that isn't actually there.

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By the way, one of the reasons that I remember to ask about the distinction between alligators, crocodiles and dinosaurs is that just recently

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I saw on the news, it was probably about a week ago, in Florida there was a golf course, they had film footage of a golf course in Florida after a rainstorm and this huge alligator,

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I think they said it was between 10 and 12 foot long, was walking along the golf course and he was not walking close to the ground with his belly dragging along the ground.

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His legs were more, it more resembled the way a horse or a cow would walk, the way the legs were straight.

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I was, I don't know if I had ever seen that before and perhaps it just jolted at me because of the discussion

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I had previously about the reason why they're not considered dinosaurs, but it just struck me that it was not walking the way, it wasn't crawling the way that you normally see them in footage.

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I didn't hear about that or see it, but that's probably one of the reasons why I don't golf. Well, at least in Florida.

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Sure, yeah. Well, tell us as far as the biblical account is concerned, when were the dinosaurs created?

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Sure. Again, we kind of want to do investigative work. We say, okay, is there anything in scripture that would give us a hint as to when they were created?

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And again, a lot of Christians and other religious people would say, well, the Bible doesn't even talk about dinosaurs, so it can't tell us when they were created.

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Well, the Bible doesn't mention sea urchins or stingrays either, but we can figure out when these creatures were created because of the details in Genesis chapter one.

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God says that he created everything in six days, and it's another topic, and I know,

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I guess I need a preface of this too. One thing that I like to do with this and other topics is not necessarily try to twist anyone's arm to get them to believe what

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I believe, but what I like to do is educate people to help them better understand a certain point of view.

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And this point of view happens to be the view that was held by the vast majority Christians throughout history until more recently where we got a few other views in that are, some of them are becoming strong in some people's minds.

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But historically, even in the Old Testament, the historical view is that God created things in six literal days, not that long ago, not millions and billions of years, but thousands.

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So that's been the historical view, and there are many, many people, including many Christians that are scientists who believe that today.

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So I like to come along and say, let me tell you more about why the people in history believe that, and then why even many people today still believe that, both biblically and scientifically.

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So people don't need to try to debate me. I'm just, I'm here to educate. People need to make up their own mind, but it really needs to be based on their own understanding of Scripture and not say, well,

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I heard this lecture by this one guy, and he sounded really smart, so that's what I believe now. Because then you're putting your faith in that person, and it shouldn't be in me either.

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We can listen to all these views, but then we always need to go back to Scripture to see if what we heard is consistent with what we're reading, and that's what the

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Bereans did in the Book of Acts. And so with this question of when were they created, you do the investigative work,

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Genesis chapter 1, God creates everything in six days.

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And I always ask my audiences, what does everything leave out? I jokingly say, it leaves out one thing, nothing.

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God didn't say that He created everything except for those dinosaurs.

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He said He created everything in six days, and then He tells us He created the land creatures on day six.

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Well, dinosaurs were land creatures, so they must have been created on day six.

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He also created Adam and Eve on day six, so according to the Bible, dinosaurs would have been created on day six.

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If people have an issue with that, it's not really with me, it's with what it says in Genesis, and they will have to take that up with God to see who's right,

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God or themselves. Now, as far as what they ate, what do you know about the dinosaurs?

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Were they all carnivores, meat eaters, or was there more variety? Sure, that's another one of those things.

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In my three -part video series, in the beginning, I introduced a thing called a crazy meter, and I said throughout the talk, we're going to be topics that sound crazy in people's minds, and we've already hit on some of them that are created on day six that sounds crazy, and we can get to how long ago that day six was, too, specifically focusing on dinosaurs.

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But then when you ask, well, what did dinosaurs eat? People say, oh, come on, the Bible doesn't even talk about dinosaurs.

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It certainly doesn't tell us what they ate. Well, surprise, it does. God says that He gave the green plants of the field as food for all of His creatures, the names of creatures that crawl on the ground, the beasts of the earth, you know, people, and they were all vegetarian.

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So dinosaurs that were created on day six, according to Scripture, were created to eat plants.

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But then that's where people think, okay, now you lost me because that's crazy. There's no way the

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T. rex was a vegetarian, and they point to the teeth. As I travel around, I have a replica of a

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T. rex tooth about six inches long. It's pretty big. So the point is, these are big teeth.

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These are kind of sharp teeth. There's no way that's a vegetarian. So in my presentation... Those teeth are just a little bit shorter than Carly Simon's.

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There you go. They're up there, yeah. So in my presentation, when

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I show a picture of a skull of an animal that's around today, and I said, look at these teeth. These are nasty teeth.

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They're very sharp. This is obviously the skull of a meat eater. And then I reveal it's the skull of a fruit bat.

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And I say, do you have any idea what fruit bats ate? Well, they ate fruit. And then I show another skull, and that one's much bigger, bigger teeth.

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And it's the skull of a grizzly bear. Grizzly bears have large teeth, but they're largely vegetarian.

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Yeah, they can eat meat. Sometimes they do, but they're largely vegetarian. Then I show another one, which is a hippo.

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Massive teeth. Looks like a meat eater from the teeth, but no, it's a hippo. Largely vegetarian. And then the last one,

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I show another skull. It's got actually very sharp teeth, pretty big. And people think, well, it's got to be the meat eater.

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No, it's a giant panda. And pandas use the sharp teeth for stripping bamboo, which they eat.

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So just because something has large or sharp teeth doesn't make it a meat eater. So scripture says they were all vegetarian.

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That's how they were originally created. And then, again, more investigative work. You fast forward in scripture,

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Genesis 9, 1 through 3. It's roughly almost 1700 years after creation. You know, things got so bad on the earth.

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God said, that's it. I'm going to wipe them out. He sends a flood. Genesis 9, 3 is everyone coming off the ark.

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And God says, basically, hey, remember how I gave you all the plants to eat?

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Well, now you can eat anything. Anything that moves, you can eat. So go ahead and eat meat. So were dinosaurs vicious meat eaters?

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Some of them were, but not originally. All started out vegetarian, but God knew

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Adam and Eve were going to sin. I was going to bring death and a corruption in this perfect creation. And God created creatures to be able to live in a fallen world.

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And he was going to give them the ability and permission to eat meat. And he designed some of them to also be able to do that, which include people and some bears and dinosaurs.

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Again, we always have to go back to what the scripture tells us. The other thing on that Genesis 9 chapter, it says that they're coming off the ark.

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It says, now all the creatures are going to be afraid of you. Talking to mankind.

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Well, we're using our minds and God wants us to. What does that tell us? It tells us before the flood, the creatures were not afraid of people and people weren't afraid of them because they were all vegetarian and weren't eating each other.

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Things are different after the flood. God says, now I'm giving them into your hands. They'll be afraid of you and you can eat meat.

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So it's a different economy going forward when they're coming off the ark. Now that may have just flown over the heads of some of our listeners, but there was something very crucial in what you said.

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Not that all of it isn't important, but there's something extremely crucial. In fact, this is where the divide comes in between old earth and young earth creationists is that we as young earth creationists believe there was no death before the fall of Adam and that would include the death of animals.

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Am I right? Isn't this why this is such an important fact that you're bringing up? It is huge.

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And when people bring up the topic of the age of the earth and usually pretty quick to tell them, I personally don't care how old the earth is.

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I have a very strong opinion, both biblically based and scientifically based that the earth has got to be relatively young, but the actual age isn't as significant as the topic you brought up and that is death.

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It's not really about age. It's about when and how did death get introduced into God's creation?

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In fact, we're going to have you pick up right at that very important point when we come back from our break. This is our first break, folks, and if you'd like to join us on the air, again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jay Seeger and dinosaurs and the

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In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

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39:04

Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Truck Design Radio, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire program is

39:13

Jay Siegert, who is the managing director for the Starting Point Project, and we are discussing dinosaurs and the

39:23

Bible. And if you have a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com,

39:29

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

39:38

USA. And Jay, right before the break, you were beginning to address why it is such an important issue that we believe, as Christians, that death did not take place prior to the

39:55

Fall, which is very much connected to the fact that all of God's creatures were vegetarian initially before the

40:05

Fall. Yeah, very important. Again, the issue certainly is the introduction of death into God's perfect creation versus really the actual age of the

40:18

Earth. I know that the debate is always the age of the Earth, billions of years versus thousands, and that's an interesting topic and it needs to be discussed, but the foundation of that issue, the age, is really the introduction of death.

40:32

So what someone believes about the age of the Earth will drive how they answer the question of, when did death get here?

40:41

How did it get here? And so what it comes down to is two major views, opposing views.

40:48

One is that God used standard, more naturalistic processes in his creative acts, which most religious people believe and many

41:01

Christians believe that, yeah, God, he used the Big Bang. So whatever the scientists come up with, we'll just say that's how

41:08

God did it, because God is all -powerful and he can do anything he wants and we shouldn't be limiting him. And it sounds kind of like they're on high ground and they're the ones who are really open to God and whatever

41:20

God wants to do, they're not putting limits on God. So it sounds kind of reasonable on the surface, but God is certainly all -powerful.

41:29

There's nothing that he can't do other than violate his own character. He can't not exist.

41:35

He can't sin. He can't lie. It's not because he's not strong enough. It has nothing to do with strength.

41:41

It has to do with his very nature, which is a good thing. So it's not so much about what

41:48

God physically could have done, because physically he could do anything. He could create everything over trillions and trillions and trillions of years.

41:55

He could have done everything in a trillionth of a second or anywhere in between. It's about what he said he did, and it's pretty clear in Genesis and Exodus chapter 20,

42:04

God created everything in six days and rested on the seventh. And so the two views are, one is that God actually used what we're being told in the public school system and state universities, the

42:16

Big Bang, God used that, which was about 13 .8 billion years ago, and the earth formed about 4 .6

42:23

billion years ago. Life somehow started 3 .8 billion years ago. Mankind started evolving from an eight -legged creature about 6 million years ago.

42:33

We arrived in our more modern form maybe 200 ,000 years ago. That's the standard timeline.

42:41

If God used that process, and physically it would have been a possibility because he's not limited by strength.

42:51

If he did choose to use that process, that means the earth indeed is old, and the layers on the earth apparently accumulated over hundreds of millions of years.

43:01

The geologic column, you look at the Grand Canyon, all that represents hundreds of millions of years of earth history.

43:08

Well, those layers are filled with fossils, billions and billions of fossils.

43:15

What's a true history of the earth, hundreds of millions of years, that means apparently creatures were living back then in those times and dying and getting buried.

43:29

The fossil record represents death, disease, pain, and suffering. All that would have been going on for hundreds of millions of years, and then when the earth is done, apparently

43:38

God created a garden on top of the whole thing, and then plunks Adam and Eve in there, and they're saying, oh, this is paradise, it's such a perfect world.

43:48

No, it wouldn't be. They would be living on top of a graveyard of billions of dead things and death and disease and suffering.

43:55

So then when Adam and Eve sinned, that apparently really didn't bring death into God's creation, as Romans 5 .12

44:03

says, it was by Adam's sin that brought death. That didn't really bring death, that must have done something else, and so you have to try to skirt around that issue, and that makes

44:13

God the author of death, disease, pain, and suffering. It wasn't Adam's actions. Well, the whole reason

44:20

Jesus Christ came to die on a cross was that Adam's sin brought death. Death is an enemy, it's the last enemy, and Jesus defeated it by dying on the cross and rising again, and so that's pretty clear to most

44:35

Christians, but you can't buy into that if you say, well, God used the Big Bang and the earth is very old.

44:41

On the other hand, if you take scripture for what it says, that God created everything in six days, including

44:46

Adam and Eve, they were in the garden and they were perfect, and it was perfect, but when they sinned, that brought the curse and death in, and then things got worse and worse and worse, and almost 1700 years later,

45:00

God says, it's so bad now, I need to judge this creation. He sends a flood, which lays down all those layers that we see in the

45:09

Grand Canyon, burying creatures, and that's why we see death and disease and pain and suffering, because all that was going on prior to that, and they got buried, and so it's

45:19

Adam's fault that death is in the world. That's why Jesus subsequently had to come and die on a cross, so that's what's really at stake, and it all plays into dinosaurs, whether you believe the secular interpretations, which forces you to believe that you've got dinosaurs dying in the fossil record, you know, preserved there, we've got dinosaur bones that have cancer in them, so all those diseases were going on millions and millions of years ago, before mankind was really on the planet.

45:50

That's why talking about dinosaurs ties into all of this. And how do you answer the

45:56

Christian, who is an old earth creationist, who says that there is nothing in the

46:03

Hebrew of the Old Testament that compels us absolutely to believe that the death that came into the world in Genesis, after the fall, was not exclusively in regard to the death of man, and not the death of animals, which could have been occurring for thousands of years prior to that?

46:31

Sure, well, again, when you look at the big picture, and you really try to get a feel for what actually happened in the garden, was there really an

46:40

Adam and Eve, were they real? Well, you look at the Hebrew in Genesis, and it's straightforward

46:45

Hebrew historical narrative, it's history, this is what actually happened, it's not poetic language saying that, you know, they weren't really people, but we'll just call them

46:55

Adam and Eve. No, it's talking about two real people, Jesus took them literally, Jesus is referred to as being the last

47:02

Adam. The first Adam wasn't real, what does that say about the last Adam? So you take the

47:07

Bible as a whole, and then you find in Romans that the whole entire creation is groaning because of the curse.

47:17

It wasn't just a curse that came in, you know, spiritually at the time that there had already been physical death or anything, this is something that drastically changed everything, and God says that not only was there a beginning of everything, there's going to be an end.

47:34

Jesus Christ came once, about 2 ,000 years ago, down on a cross, rose again, descended back into heaven, and he says he's coming back, and Jesus says no one knows exactly when that's going to be, but I'll tell you when it's close, you're going to see certain things happening, and we see some of those signs happening today,

47:50

I believe. So when Christ returns, there's a lot going on that the

47:55

Bible addresses very specifically, and one of the things at the end is God's going to create a new heavens and a new earth and restore it like it was in the beginning.

48:05

If the original creation before Adam and Eve had death and disease and pain and suffering and animals dying and bloodshed and all that, apparently that's what it's going to be like on into eternity, because he's going to restore all things.

48:19

That makes no sense, and just like I'll ask Christians, do you believe Jesus is coming back?

48:24

Oh yeah, he's coming back. Do you believe when he comes back he's going to create a new heavens and new earth? Oh yeah, definitely. Is he going to take billions of years to do it?

48:32

Oh no, he's going to do it miraculously. Why couldn't he have done that to begin with, just like he said?

48:39

So they kind of contradict their own logic. They're more than willing to let God recreate everything miraculously at the end, but they won't let him do that to begin with.

48:47

Well, in fairness, and I'm sure you would likely agree with this, the Christians who are old earth creationists would not say that God could not have done it instantly.

49:00

They just don't believe the evidence shows that. Those that are scientists who stick with an old earth view don't believe that the evidence shows that.

49:08

I don't know if they would. I'm pretty certain that, especially since there are many in that camp that theologically would be nearly identical to you and I, but who just disagree over these scientific issues.

49:24

And I'm not saying that they're not important. I'm just saying that they would concur that God could have done it in a split second, but chose not to.

49:32

Wouldn't you agree with that? Oh, definitely. I don't know any that would say that it was impossible for God to have done it a certain way, but they're very convincing.

49:43

I have friends who have different views, and I know other creationists and other Christians who believe in an old earth, old universe, and all that.

49:53

For the ones that I know, I don't doubt their salvation and their sincerity.

49:59

We would part ways on how we understand Scripture, but I think one of the most dangerous things is the vast, vast majority of people that I talk to who believe that God used the more naturalistic processes and the

50:14

Big Bang and things like that in hundreds of millions of years for the layers of the earth. They're very, very convinced by science that that's true, and that typically drives them to study

50:25

Scripture and find a defense scripturally that would back that up. In fact, every time

50:31

I ask them, why are you so convinced that the earth is old, the universe is old, and they always go right to science, and they usually say, okay, hold on a second.

50:38

Science is fascinating. I love science. We can get back to that. Let's just table that temporarily. Take me to Scripture, and tell me what is it that you're reading that is so overwhelmingly convincing to you because, for the vast majority of history, we did not have science.

50:57

So what were all the people supposed to do from Moses on forward who only had writings from God but didn't have science?

51:06

We'd have to think that God told Moses to tell this story about the six -day creation, and God knew people were actually going to believe it.

51:16

His own chosen people, the Israelites, believed that God created things in six days. He knew they were going to believe that, and God was kind of cringing.

51:24

He was like, oh, they're going to believe what I told Moses to write, but I didn't. I didn't really mean that.

51:29

I meant something very, very different. I meant this massive explosion billions of years ago, and then the earth cools down, and on and on and on.

51:38

That's what I really meant, but when they eventually develop science, they're going to figure out what

51:44

I actually meant, and that makes no sense because that even means today don't bother really reading your

51:51

Bible on your own because you probably can't figure out the truth unless you have one of the leading scientists around you to help explain what it really means through what they think they're discovering with modern science.

52:05

That's very dangerous because that holds science in authority over God's Word. And we have to go to our midway break right now, and please be patient with us, folks, because it is a longer than normal break.

52:15

Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida has required of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the

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FCC to use this middle break to localize

52:30

Iron Trump and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, and therefore they air their own public service announcements and other local announcements during the program while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

52:43

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can respond to those ads and patronize our advertisers as often as you can, and sometimes that means just reaching out to them to thank them for sponsoring

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Iron Trump and Zion Radio. We want to keep our advertisers happy, folks, because they are a key reason, second only to God himself, that this program exists.

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We need the finances that come in to this program in order to keep it on the air.

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So please try to keep our advertisers happy. Please patronize them. Please thank them for sponsoring this show.

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Also use this time to write questions and send them in to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com

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for our Jay Seegert. We'll be right back with more of our discussion on dinosaurs after these messages from our sponsors.

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Iron Trump and Zion Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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01:09:21

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01:09:30

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01:09:42

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01:09:49

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01:11:02

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01:11:09

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01:13:50

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01:14:00

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01:14:40

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01:14:50

Jay Siegert, on Dinosaurs in the Bible. That's chrisarnzenatgmail .com.

01:14:57

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

01:15:04

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And Jay, I'm assuming you're still with us,

01:15:13

Jay? I'm here. And we have a question for you from Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania.

01:15:21

Joseph says, I don't know if you have seen the series of movies about Jurassic Park, but I was wondering, other than the dates involved, about millions and billions of years old, is there any truth in the science and the zoology regarding the dinosaurs in those movies?

01:15:46

Great question. I know I saw the first Jurassic Park that came out many, many years ago, 93 or whenever it was initially released.

01:15:56

I don't know if I saw any of the other ones or not. And I remember a fair amount from the first one, certainly not all the details.

01:16:04

And just top of my head, I would say probably the depiction of how those dinosaurs looked, probably pretty accurate.

01:16:13

How they moved might have been pretty accurate. Probably the only point I would bring up was related to the idea of cloning, and they were able to kind of resuscitate the dinosaurs and bring them back.

01:16:28

Fascinating topic. It certainly makes for great entertainment in the movie. But here is basically why you could not clone a dinosaur.

01:16:39

When you clone something, you basically take an egg from a living creature, and then you go inside and you remove the

01:16:50

DNA from the nucleus of that fertilized egg, that zygote, and then you take the

01:16:55

DNA you discovered somewhere you were digging up, you saw some other creature buried, and it still had some

01:17:03

DNA left. If it was well preserved, you theoretically could take that DNA and replace it in the egg of this living creature.

01:17:11

The egg will use the DNA information to develop the new creature. What you do is you trick it into developing whatever the dead one was, all the details it had in its

01:17:21

DNA, and they have been able to do that with different creatures today. It is fascinating what they have been able to figure out.

01:17:28

It is very, very complex. Basically, you discover some DNA in something that had died. If it is preserved, you could theoretically put it in a similar creature that is just starting to develop.

01:17:38

The problem with the dinosaur cloning is we do not have living dinosaurs to find some ancient dinosaur

01:17:46

DNA and then put it in the egg of a living dinosaur. They are trying to and have been trying to clone a woolly mammoth because they find woolly mammoth carcasses frozen and preserved.

01:17:59

It has DNA. Some people actually thaw out the meat and eat it. I do not know that I would want to, but it contains

01:18:05

DNA. And now we do not have living woolly mammoth, so how do you get an egg that is going to just start developing from a living woolly mammoth?

01:18:13

You do not. What they are doing is using an egg from an Indian elephant because when you think about it, think about an

01:18:21

Indian elephant and an African elephant, and then you picture a mammoth and a mastodon, they are really the same kind of animal.

01:18:30

God created creatures to reproduce after their kind. They are the same general kind of animal.

01:18:35

Today, woolly mammoths and mastodons have gone extinct, but we still have the Indian elephants and African elephants.

01:18:41

You find some woolly mammoth DNA and put it into an egg of a developing Indian elephant and see if you could get something.

01:18:49

It would theoretically be a hybrid, maybe a little bit of an elephant and a mammoth because there is also some information in the egg there.

01:18:58

They have not been successful yet. I know another leading creationist who is a biologist.

01:19:03

He does not think it is going to happen because it is so complex and the DNA tends to degrade over time.

01:19:11

It is probably not going to happen, but theoretically it could if the DNA was preserved well enough, but you could not do that with a dinosaur.

01:19:19

Can you just one more time go over why that would be impossible? For instance, it may have been you, it may have been another guest who discussed a female paleontologist who discovered dinosaur bones that had flesh on them, which also disproves the millions or billions of years old theory.

01:19:46

Why couldn't flesh from that, if one were able to clone a woolly mammoth from the flesh found in a carcass frozen in the ice, why couldn't the flesh from a dinosaur be cloned?

01:20:01

Sure, I will answer that, but I will first jump on to the other comment you made because it is fascinating.

01:20:07

We cannot do the show without talking about it. Dr. Mary Schweitzer was a scientist who initially discovered some soft tissue in dinosaur bones.

01:20:17

Long story short, they were digging around and found a huge, I think it was a T -Rex femur, but they could not transport it with a helicopter, it was too big, so they had to break it in two to carry it out.

01:20:29

They were doing some testing on it later, and she is looking at the cross sections and things under the microscope, and she sees something that looks like soft tissue, but she is thinking to herself, it can't be, she said to herself, but it can't be because it is 65 million years old.

01:20:44

She kept looking at it, it kept looking like soft tissue, but she said it can't be. She said she did her testing and experiment 17 times because she just couldn't believe it.

01:20:54

She couldn't believe it, she couldn't believe it, and she finally realized this is really soft tissue from a dinosaur bone.

01:21:00

Some of her colleagues, I think, doubted that and said, it has got to be contamination. Maybe it is soft tissue, but it is from some other animal that somehow got into the dinosaur bone.

01:21:08

Well, they were able to rule that out and realize it is really dinosaur soft tissue. You have videos of them grabbing with tweezers, stretching it, and it snaps back.

01:21:18

They have red blood cells, and now, more recently, they even have DNA fragments from these dinosaur bones, which, again, standard story.

01:21:28

Dinosaurs roamed the earth for about 260 million years, and they died out about 65 million years ago, but most dinosaur bones, when we dig them up, are still fresh.

01:21:38

They haven't fossilized yet. They can fossilize bones on their own in mineral springs in a few weeks.

01:21:44

They were 65 million years old. They should have fossilized a long time ago. We find carbon -14 in dinosaur bones.

01:21:51

Carbon -14, I gave lectures on that. Long story short, carbon -14 is radioactive.

01:21:57

It gets into all living things. It is basically created by the sun when it comes into our atmosphere, and then it gets into all living things, into the plants, into the animals, and the people.

01:22:07

When you eat, you are bringing in this radioactive carbon -14, but it decays away. Then, if you are like me, and I know

01:22:14

I am, you eat again, and you bring more carbon -14 in, and then that decays away. Your whole life, you are bringing it into your body, and it decays away.

01:22:22

When you die, you stop eating, and so whatever carbon -14 you have will decay away like it always has been, but now you are not replacing it.

01:22:31

You are going to have less and less and less until it is completely gone. When a paleontologist digs up a bone and wants to get an age on it, if they are doing carbon -14 dating, they are trying to find out how long ago did this thing die?

01:22:45

When did it stop eating? We know the rate at which carbon -14 decays. It has a half -life of 5 ,730 years.

01:22:52

That just means every 5 ,730 years, it would be down to half the amount it used to have at the rate that we measure today.

01:23:00

Anyway, carbon -14 gets into all things, but it would be gone after a few tens of thousands of years.

01:23:06

At the rate we see it decay, it could only last a few tens of thousands of years. If the dinosaur bones are 65 million years old and some are 100 to 125 million years old, they should not have any carbon -14, but they do, and then the

01:23:22

DNA. The DNA is more fragile than red blood cells and soft tissue. It should not be there. They did not really find it before because they were never looking for it.

01:23:31

Now, since they found it, they start looking at other bones, and they are finding it quite often. There are so many examples now of soft tissue in dinosaur bones.

01:23:41

Segueing from that into the cloning question, we have found some what looks like DNA segments in dinosaur bones, but they are so degraded.

01:23:50

It is not a complete set of the information to make the creature. You could not use that.

01:23:56

It is too degraded. The bigger problem is you would need to take that DNA that was discovered in these bones that were buried and then go to a living dinosaur that just became pregnant that had this zygote, this fertilized egg.

01:24:11

Take that egg from that living dinosaur, take the DNA out of the nucleus, and put this new

01:24:17

DNA that you found in the bone lane in the ground in there. Replace it, and then that would develop, and that would be the cloned version.

01:24:23

Again, the DNA we are finding is too degraded, and we do not have that living dinosaur to produce a living egg.

01:24:31

Now, the way that it was done in those movies, from what I remember, is that a mosquito was found in fossilized sap, if I remember.

01:24:44

They drew the blood out of the mosquito, which apparently bit a dinosaur.

01:24:51

If you removed the dinosaur from the equation and the mosquito had bitten a human or a mammal, is that a way that could really provide what you needed for a cloning to take place?

01:25:08

Theoretically, if a mosquito bit someone 300 years ago, and let us say it got preserved somehow, which is interesting.

01:25:18

The preservation we see in the rock record does not happen every day. It is not a common occurrence.

01:25:24

It happens under catastrophic environments like a flood, laying down. You have to bury something rapidly in order to preserve it.

01:25:31

You have to protect it from the Earth's atmosphere, specifically oxygen. We do not see amber being formed today and all these fossils being formed today.

01:25:39

If a mosquito bit someone 300 years ago, and let us just say a mosquito bit

01:25:46

George Washington, and then it got preserved. When someone discovers this mosquito, and somehow they know that it bit

01:25:53

George Washington, if it had DNA in it, which it could, if it was preserved, which probably would not be preserved well enough, but if the conditions were just right and the

01:26:04

DNA was very, very well preserved, you could theoretically take the DNA, put it into a negative.

01:26:11

If a female became pregnant and she was going to have a baby just when it is initially fertilized, go in and take that DNA out and put

01:26:19

George Washington's DNA in there, and you should get another George Washington out, largely.

01:26:26

So, it is certainly theoretically possible, but because of all the degradation that goes on, it is not really feasible.

01:26:36

By the way, Joseph, in South Central Pennsylvania, you have won a free

01:26:42

DVD set Dinosaurs and the Bible, thanks to the generosity of the

01:26:49

Starting Point Project. If you could, Jay, describe this

01:26:56

DVD set, Dinosaurs and the Bible, for us, that our listener Joseph just won.

01:27:02

Sure. It is a three -part series we recorded not long ago. It is very, very, very fresh. The paint is still wet.

01:27:09

In it, I train people that no matter what topic comes up, always turn to God's Word first to see what it says.

01:27:17

One of the first things I say in the series, it is a three -part series, three half -an -hour talks with a lot of visuals, a lot of PowerPoint and animation.

01:27:26

One of the first things I say in there is that if there were two sources of information that you could use to learn about any particular topic, whatever the topic might be, two sources.

01:27:38

If you were only told part of one and none of the other, could you come to the wrong conclusion about that topic?

01:27:48

Yes, you could. In fact, you would be surprised if you did not come to the wrong conclusion. That is the situation we have with dinosaurs.

01:27:55

We are only being taught part of the science, and we are being taught none of Scripture in our public school systems and state universities.

01:28:03

Kids do not show up at school and say, we are going to learn about dinosaurs today, so get out your Bible. That is obviously not happening.

01:28:10

So if you are only hearing part of the science, and it is only the science that they think seems to back up their secular worldview, and you are never really being taught what

01:28:18

Scripture really teaches us about God's creation and dinosaurs, you could come to the wrong conclusion.

01:28:25

Many, many Christians have, because from kindergarten on up, we learn all about dinosaurs in virtually every kindergarten book you see.

01:28:35

Like I did this, my wife likes going to Goodwill. I do not. I am in there killing some time.

01:28:41

I thought, I know. I am going to go over to the children's book section. I am going to find a book on dinosaurs. The first one

01:28:46

I pull off the shelf, I bet myself the very first page will talk about millions of years ago.

01:28:53

If I am right, I owe me a hot fudge sundae. If I am wrong, I owe me a hot fudge sundae.

01:28:59

Either way, it was going to work out well for me. So I go over and grab the first book I saw on dinosaurs. I open the first page.

01:29:05

It said, boom, millions of years ago, dinosaurs roamed the earth. So that is what we learn, even

01:29:11

Christians, because they typically go to public school systems, most Christians do, and they learn all about dinosaurs.

01:29:17

And you go to church and learn about Jesus. And you go back to school and learn about history. And you go to church and learn about Jesus. And you go back to school and learn about science.

01:29:24

You go back to church and learn about Jesus, and on and on. And then you get the impression, oh, I guess I have to go to school if I want to learn about dinosaurs, because the

01:29:32

Bible doesn't talk about it. The pastor doesn't. And church is just more of a Jesus thing, and kind of how you feel, and it's a religious belief.

01:29:40

And so they just accept wholeheartedly everything you're hearing at school about dinosaurs millions of years ago, and it doesn't seem to fit in the

01:29:47

Bible. Most Christians not only don't know what to believe about dinosaurs, they don't know what they're supposed to believe.

01:29:53

And so they kind of just choose not to think about it much and figure out, well, I guess it fits in there somehow, or maybe it was before the

01:30:00

Bible time. So there's a lot of confusion. But the DVD series will go through all that.

01:30:05

There's a lot of great introductory stuff. And then we cover all these questions of, you know, why don't we find the dinosaur in the

01:30:11

Bible? And were they vicious meat eaters? And did they turn into oil? And how old are the bones? How did they determine the age of the bones, which we should cover before the end of the program?

01:30:20

And is there evidence of man and dinosaur living at the same time? And what happened to the dinosaurs? All those types of questions and more are answered in that three part

01:30:26

DVD series. Well, Joseph, make sure you give us your full name and mailing address in South Central PA so that we can have

01:30:36

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com send you this free

01:30:42

DVD set that has been provided very generously to us by Jay Siegert and the folks at the

01:30:49

Starting Point Project. We have, let's see, we have

01:30:55

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania. And Susan Margaret asks, there have been on occasion, traveling exhibits that put on displays in regard to dinosaurs that will feature animated robots and fossil displays and lecturers that primarily are there to teach and entertain children about dinosaurs.

01:31:24

Is it wise for Christians to bring our children to these events, which are primarily conducted by secularists and those who reject the biblical account of creation, as long as we do damage control afterward and tell our children where the lecturers got the subjects wrong?

01:31:47

That's another great question. I would actually advise, yeah, go ahead. You know, for a couple reasons.

01:31:54

One is I told my own kids when they were younger, both got married last year, but when they were younger,

01:32:00

I told them, I want them to know more about evolution than almost anyone else around them.

01:32:06

I want them to understand what it really means and what evolutionists believe and why they believe it.

01:32:13

I want them to understand that worldview so that they can also figure out what are the problems and the downfalls and the shortages and the arguments against that type of a worldview.

01:32:23

I didn't want to shelter them from hearing that. And so if people are going to spend a lot of money to make these robots and drive them around, hey, take advantage of it.

01:32:32

Go and see. Hear what they say is the story behind dinosaurs, but then you've got to commit to doing diligence to see what does scripture say and what do we really know from science?

01:32:45

Because science will also back up what scripture is saying. So you don't want to leave hanging just like, oh, that was kind of entertaining.

01:32:51

I don't really know how to refute that, but it was kind of fun. I wouldn't suggest that. And if the parents don't have all the answers at a time, and most of them probably don't, that's okay.

01:33:02

Take them, but then do it together. Let's say, let's research this together. Let's make this kind of a fun project and the parents can look into some things and report back what they've seen from scripture.

01:33:13

And like my type of a DVD series gives you a lot of that information or other creation organizations around that can also help out as well.

01:33:21

But yeah, use that as a teaching tool because I think the parents need to learn it as much as the children.

01:33:27

Yeah. And that brings to mind one of the things I was fascinated by growing up and have still to this day, vivid memories from when

01:33:38

I, I don't even think I was 10. I think it was younger than even 10 years old of going to the Museum of Natural History in New York City.

01:33:47

What about that? How much of that museum contains falsehood?

01:33:56

And if you are thoroughly aware of what is there at that museum, and of course there are other museums as well, but is that a safe place to take kids as long as you do exactly what you just mentioned before about the traveling exhibit?

01:34:12

Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of beautiful things. I haven't been to the one in New York, but I've been into the one in Chicago, which is about,

01:34:18

I live in Wisconsin, but Chicago is two hours south of us and they've got a beautiful museum there. A lot of the stuff is visually very well done.

01:34:27

And a lot of the stuff is fine. It's just the fact, you know, certain thing was this big, it weighed this much or whatever, that's fine.

01:34:34

But you can use it as a exercise in critical thinking. You can go through and you can see the exhibits and then you can read some of the plaques and then ask yourself, okay, what they just wrote on this plaque, is that an actual fact backed up by anything?

01:34:51

Or does it sound more like a story? Like, you know, perhaps this happened and this happened millions of years ago.

01:34:56

Okay, well, they weren't there to see it. So how could they know that? Well, they couldn't know that. They're sharing their belief, their worldview, their faith.

01:35:06

And so you can teach your kids critical thinking skills and after a while they'll think, wow, almost everything in here is a story.

01:35:12

There's really hardly any facts. And I used to do this and a friend of mine did too, to teach people how to look for fuzzy words and fuzzy thinking.

01:35:21

Sometimes when you read a scientific article, it could be a page or two. You read the whole thing and you highlight anything that's a fuzzy word.

01:35:29

Perhaps, might have, could have, possibly, probably, things like that.

01:35:34

And when you're done, you could circle all the things that are facts and like, okay, I just read that whole article. There's one circle.

01:35:41

The circle of the fact is they actually found a rock. That's true, no doubt that they did find a rock.

01:35:46

Everything else is might have, could have, might have come from Mars, might have traces of bacterial life on it, might, might, might, possibly could.

01:35:54

And so you can do that with a museum and you'll see there's a lot of storytelling that goes on with the displays that they put out.

01:36:02

Now, one thing I remember seeing as a young child at the Museum of Natural History, which helped to convince me as a child in Darwinian evolution, which is something, believe it or not, that I was also taught as a fact in the science class at the parochial

01:36:24

Catholic school, where I was a student from first to eighth grade. I was taught to not believe in the stories of the

01:36:32

Old Testament, like Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark, because they were fairy tales. A nun never told us that, although there may have been many nuns that did and still do believe that they're fairy tales, but they had what they call lay teachers that taught some of the classes in school.

01:36:50

And my science teacher was one of them, a non -clerical individual.

01:36:58

But it was in the Hall of Man, I think they called it, but there were a series of heads that ranged from an ape all the way to a human.

01:37:12

And what I later heard, and you could clarify or confirm this, is that these heads that were sculpted for this display had very little fossil or bone evidence to construct all of these transformational heads from ape to man.

01:37:36

They were the imagination of the paleontologist taking a tiny fragment of bone here and there and then sculpting an entire head out of it.

01:37:45

Is what I'm saying accurate? Well, there's an awful lot of storytelling that goes on with the evolution of mankind, and basically you could summarize the whole thing.

01:37:56

Every ape man you have ever seen or ever will see or any of the listeners have seen or will see, every single example, whatever they're thinking of or the new ones that will come up, falls into one of three categories.

01:38:11

It was either truly just an ape that they tried to make look more human, or it was really fully human that they tried to make look more ape -like, or the third category would be a mix of the two.

01:38:25

Some ape bones, some human bones that they said really came together on the same skeleton, but it was either a mistake or a fraud.

01:38:32

And there's examples throughout history. Most people are familiar with the name Lucy. That's Australopithecus africanus.

01:38:40

Yeah, it's basically a southern ape from the far region of Africa, and the reason they call her

01:38:48

Lucy is Donald Johansson discovered in 1974 in their camp. They were playing music from the

01:38:53

Beatles, and they were listening to Lucy in the sky with diamonds. So the first one they dug up, they called Lucy, and that's where the name came from.

01:39:02

But were they also on LSD when they came up with this theory? Because apparently that's what the song is about.

01:39:09

Yes, but that one's basically an extinct chimp -like creature that they tried to make look more human by doing lots of different things.

01:39:20

They found about 40 percent of the bones to begin with claimed it was two and a half million years old and walked upright. But if you look at the feet on Lucy, they look very human -like.

01:39:29

Oh, wait a minute. Why would they put human feet on Lucy? They didn't find her foot bones when they found

01:39:35

Lucy, but when they put her in the museum, she's standing just about upright like a human, which chimps don't really stand that way, but they have her standing upright, and she's got like human feet to make it look kind of human.

01:39:46

Well, the reason they put human feet on Lucy is, I don't know if it was a thousand miles away, there were these human footprints that looked just like human footprints.

01:39:56

But if those were human footprints, then Lucy was not on her way to evolving into a human because humans already existed.

01:40:03

So what they had to say was, oh, Lucy left those footprints. Those are her footprints.

01:40:09

And so they put human -like feet on Lucy. Well, later they found more of these Australopithecine fossils, and they did find the foot bones and the hand bones, and they're long and curved, just like a chimpanzee.

01:40:22

But they didn't really change the museums because that would ruin their story. So that's an example of a truly just a chimpanzee that they tried to make look more human.

01:40:30

And then you have Neanderthal man, which is perfectly human that they tried to make look more ape -like, where there are

01:40:36

Europeans today that have Neanderthal blood in their DNA in them because they had cohabitated with Neanderthals in the past, just a subgroup of humans.

01:40:45

Perfectly human, but they tried to make it look more ape -like when they initially discovered it. And then you have like Piltdown Man, which was a fraud.

01:40:54

The discoverer said he found the bones on the same skeleton, some of the bones from the skull look human -like, but then the jaw bones look more like an ape.

01:41:03

But the leading experts around the world apparently couldn't tell. The guy filed the teeth down to make him look more human, and he discolored the bones to make him look older.

01:41:12

And it was in the textbooks for over 40 years. All the students going through school learn about Piltdown Man as proof of evolution used at the

01:41:19

Scopes trial, and then that had to get tossed out. So anyway, that's a little backdrop to ape men.

01:41:26

Well, Susan Margaret, make sure we have your full mailing address in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, because you have also won a free

01:41:32

DVD set, Dinosaurs and the Bible, thanks to our friends at The Starting Point Project, and also thanks to our friends at cvbbs .com,

01:41:42

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping that out to you at no charge or to us.

01:41:48

Just make sure we have your full mailing address. In fact, we're going to our final break right now, starting off with an ad from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:41:57

And if anybody has a question for Jay Siegert, send it in now before we run out of time.

01:42:03

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:42:09

Give us your first name at least. Your city and state of residence and your country of residence. We'll be right back with Jay Siegert right after these messages.

01:42:17

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back.

01:50:43

And Jay Siegert, we have an anonymous listener who says that my pastor, and many in my congregation with whom

01:50:51

I have had conversations about this, have mocked me, thinking that my reasoning is silly.

01:50:57

But I have used what I think I have heard at creationist seminars as evidence for the existence of dinosaurs living on the planet

01:51:08

Earth with men at the same time, is the legends of dragons.

01:51:13

The legends are so universal, and from so many different diverse countries and cultures, that they must have been basing these legends on something that they actually saw.

01:51:25

I'm not saying that all the stories about these dragons are necessarily true in detail, like St.

01:51:32

George and the slaying of the dragon in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, but I still believe that these are worthy to consider as possible evidences that point to eyewitness accounts of dinosaurs.

01:51:47

What is your opinion? Well, the challenge isn't so much with these accounts, and I'm not surprised he's getting pushed back.

01:51:58

That's very, very common within the church, because the church, many churches, not all, many have accepted the secular versions of the history of the universe and just say, well, that's what

01:52:09

God did, he's all -powerful, he can do whatever he wants. Genesis wasn't meant to be taken literally, it wasn't meant to teach us the details about origins, just that God's the creator and on and on.

01:52:20

That's the general mindset, and there's a lot more to it. You could do a whole show on that, but that's what he's running into.

01:52:27

So then bringing up historical accounts where people claim to have seen creatures that certainly seem like maybe they were dinosaurs, it will be downplayed and laughed at, not because of the accounts so much, but because of everything else going on in the minds of the pastor, the church leader, or a skeptic.

01:52:46

They're just thinking, well, it can't be, because we know dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, it's silly to even think that anyone ever saw them.

01:52:53

So then you bring up a story, it doesn't matter how credible it might be, it's just going to be written off. And there are many, many, many, many accounts of people seeing creatures,

01:53:05

Alexander the Great, Marco Polo, and what I tell people, what do they all have in common? They all have in common the fact that they are stories.

01:53:13

Does that mean they're not true because they're stories? No. Does it mean they are true because they're stories? No, it just means they're stories.

01:53:20

These people were saying these things, they were serious, they claimed that historically this happened, they saw these creatures, they described it in great detail, and it's interesting.

01:53:30

And we have to put some weight on those things, just like today we believe that George Washington was the first president of the

01:53:38

United States. None of us saw that. We don't have video or anything that what we have is historical evidence.

01:53:46

We have so much evidence that we think it's very reasonable to really believe George Washington was the first president.

01:53:52

We don't really doubt it, but we can't prove that. Well, it's the same thing if dinosaurs and people lived together in the past, it was an event from history.

01:54:00

We have to approach it historically. Are there historical evidences? Okay, we have eyewitness accounts just like people who saw

01:54:08

Jesus do miracles and rise from the dead. We can't scientifically prove Jesus rose from the dead.

01:54:14

We have to look at it historically because it's a historical event. So the same thing with people and dinosaurs living together, what is the historical evidence?

01:54:23

I think there's very strong evidence, but beyond that we have a against dinosaurs being on the earth when mankind was around and all the evidence proves they're millions of years old and all that.

01:54:37

Then we might look at these stories differently, but when you look at the rest of the evidence of the fact that there's carbon 14 in the bones and DNA and soft tissue and on and on and on and on, then when you hear these accounts, it's like, okay, you know what, that's consistent with what else we're learning here.

01:54:52

And I think it fits in with the biblical chronology as well. Yeah, like the example that our listener gave of St.

01:55:00

George, who was actually in the third and fourth century, died in the early fourth century.

01:55:07

The part of the legend is that the actual dragon demanded human sacrifices.

01:55:16

Now it could be that this character from history, St. George actually did slay a dinosaur, but the part about the dinosaur itself demanding human sacrifice would have just been a fictional account that is added to something that really happened.

01:55:32

Like for instance, there could have been pagans who were sacrificing humans to this giant reptile, or it just so happens that the reptile was eating some humans and the legend and the fictional part was added.

01:55:48

Couldn't that be a case where there was a true account that just was embellished? That happens all the time.

01:55:54

You've got things that are historically true, but over time gets passed on. Some of them get distorted by accident and some of them get embellished.

01:56:04

You know, China is replete with dragon legends and dragon statues and paintings and all that.

01:56:10

Some of them over time have gotten embellished and there's 40 wings on them and eyes all over the place. Okay, that's pretty fanciful and not based on any facts, but the fact that they have so much of dragons in their history is consistent with the fact that they in their history would probably have seen creatures like that.

01:56:28

You go to a Chinese restaurant and bring a placemat and it's got all these normal animals on there and then it's got a dragon.

01:56:36

Why would they just throw a dragon in there with all these other normal animals? Well, to them, I think it was normal.

01:56:41

It was something they saw around fairly often. Before we run out of time, very briefly, are we sure that dinosaurs are actually extinct?

01:56:52

Well, it's kind of impossible to say that something is extinct because you'd have to be everywhere on the planet all at the same time to see, nope, nothing here.

01:56:59

You can't do that. On the other hand, I haven't heard any credible evidence that anything like a large dinosaur is still around today.

01:57:07

The average size of a dinosaur is maybe the size of a bison. Some are as small as chickens. It very easily could be some small dinosaurs existing in remote areas of the planet, but different stories and things like that, but they're just stories to this point.

01:57:20

So, they probably are extinct. I think most of them died out in the flood. Some that lasted afterwards didn't last as long and the rest probably died out or were hunted to extinction.

01:57:30

So, I'm not aware of any credible evidence of them being around today. Well, I'm sure that there's many mother -in -law jokes out there that we're out of time and I just want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information they need for you.

01:57:47

The Starting Point Project, let's see here, I had it right in front of me and I'm sorry that it escaped my view.

01:57:55

Could you tell me? Yeah, the startingpointproject .com is the website and they can get everything they need from there.

01:58:02

All of our resources and free articles and some videos that are on there. It's a lot of information.

01:58:07

The main thing I do is travel around and speak. So, if you want me to speak somewhere, we don't charge anything. We just ask for travel expenses to be covered.

01:58:14

And very, very quickly, with COVID hitting so many ministries, if anyone is feeling they want to donate to our ministry,

01:58:21

I'm going to say this, pray about it and see if God would have you send it to Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:58:27

We're doing okay. We're not rich, but we're not trying to get rich, but we're doing okay. So, if you want to donate, donate to Iron Sharpens Iron because they're doing an awesome work and I want to see them keep going.

01:58:38

Wow, I really appreciate that. And by the way, folks, that was not planned. That was something that Jay said on his own.

01:58:44

And so, if you want to take up Jay on his suggestion, go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:58:50

click support, then click, click to donate now. It's ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

01:58:58

We really need your help. And I want to thank you so much, Jay. I look forward to your return to the program. And our last listener, please make sure you send in your mailing address so that you can get a free set of the

01:59:08

DVDs, Dinosaurs in the Bible, compliments of cvbbs .com,

01:59:14

and also compliments of the Starting Point Project who provided them. I want to thank everybody who listened today.

01:59:19

And I want to remind you to always remember for the than you are a sinner.