Seth Gruber: It's good to have Dangerous Friends DMW#258

Dead Men Walking

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It's good to have dangerous friends. Stick around with Seth Gruber. Here we go. Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location,

01:07

Dead Men Walking starts now. Oh, well, hello, everyone.

01:20

Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast. Thanks for telling a friend. Thanks for sticking around.

01:25

Thanks for checking us out at dmwpodcast .com. Boy, did we have a good episode with Seth Gruber, and we are going to get right into that.

01:33

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03:46

So now we got the business out of the way. We had Seth Gruber on. He's an author, filmmaker, podcast host,

03:52

White Rose Resistance 1619 Project. We talked about it all. And he's going to be a speaker at the

03:58

Dangerous Friends Conference coming up March 14th and 15th. I'm sorry, March 13th and 14th, Montclova, Ohio, which

04:04

I will be at. DMW, Deadman Walking Podcast, will be at podcasting, interviewing, covering that for you.

04:11

And the list of speakers is pretty insane for the Dangerous Friends Conference. It's pretty cool.

04:16

Got to meet Seth for the first time, Seth Gruber, and boy, was he a joy. And he's one of those guys where you ask a question or you have a thought and he just goes off 10, 20, 25 minutes and he's talking about stuff.

04:29

And one of these guys that can pull references and historical stuff and facts right out of thin air because he knows it.

04:35

He's got it memorized. He's been living and breathing it for decades. Younger guy, but boy, was

04:42

I impressed. And I think you guys are really going to love the episode. I mean, we talked everything from pro -life and abortion stuff.

04:47

We talked post -denominationalism. We talked about what it means to have dangerous friends. People who believe in dangerous things and where you can come together with them.

04:57

And how we should and who we should link arms with when fighting trash world and the

05:02

Leviathan and secular federal government. Like does denominations matter?

05:07

Does what you believe matter? Who do we fight with on issues, big issues such as the trans issue and abortion issue and all that?

05:16

It was a cool episode, you guys. I think we ran about, oh, I don't know, probably 50 minutes or maybe an hour, which was a little longer than I thought we would go.

05:25

But I absolutely enjoyed it. And I just let Seth go. I'm like, yeah, tell us about it, man.

05:31

Because it was pretty cool to hear someone who is so just in that world and understand how to fight it and understand the history.

05:42

We talked about Margaret Singer a lot too and some of the history things that people don't even realize with her. I was aware of them, but not everyone is aware.

05:50

But yeah, good episode. I think you guys are going to enjoy it. And here we go.

05:55

It's me and Seth Gruber right now. So, Seth, welcome to Dead Man Walking Podcast. How are you, brother? Good, Greg.

06:01

Thanks for having me on. I love the background in that in your studio there. I'm a little jealous, honestly.

06:08

Yeah, it's pretty. Watching and only not listening. It's pretty sweet. So we got we got the lion there and we got some books back there that'll rip your face off and shock you.

06:17

But I'm on the road so much, you know, Greg, that, you know, once you come back home, you got to have a place you enjoy being in, you know.

06:26

So I tried to make a place basically that like, you know, if Bruce Jenner walked into it, he would turn cis again.

06:34

Yeah, you know, I get a little bit of pushback, too, for my bookcase. I've got the systematic theologies and then right below it,

06:41

Bill Gothard character sketches from when I was in third grade homeschool. And people go, why are those up there?

06:47

I just remember where I came from, you know, throw those old things behind. But yeah, so so good of you to be on.

06:52

Spend time with us. Give us a little intro, because I know of you. I don't know a whole lot.

06:58

I think maybe my listeners might know more about you than I even do, which is sad to say, but give us a little origin story of Seth Gruber, where you came from, how you grew up, what you're all about.

07:10

Yeah, thanks, bro. I heard that we have more mutual friends than Hunter Biden has hitting coke stashes.

07:16

And so I was I was grateful to hear that. That's a lot of mutual friends. And I'm grateful for how

07:22

God's sort of uniting people across theological lines as long as we get the gospel and the core essentials right.

07:33

And and I'm grateful for how many people are recognizing that we're really in the season of the last stand.

07:41

If Western civilization is going to survive, then we will need a rebirth, a renaissance of Christian resistance once again.

07:53

And that's going to require brothers and sisters across theological lines who simply know what time it is and are ready to bleed out on the field together.

08:04

And what I would find finalize that statement was saying is for the sake of the children, the next generation and our witness.

08:13

And so things are out of control in 2025. I mean, obviously, I'm grateful that Jezebel fell from her tower on November 5th.

08:21

And but Trump is no savior. He's just a tourniquet. And so now it's time for the church to get back into the business of what we should have been doing all along, which

08:30

I just call resistance. But but why the heck should anyone listen to me? Well, I've been a pro -life activist since I was a fetus.

08:38

So a really long time. So you wanted to survive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My mother was leading a pregnancy center in the late 80s and early 90s.

08:50

I was born in 91. And so back then, bro, in the 80s, there were like 70 percent less pregnancy resource centers in the country than there are today.

09:01

And so she was in her late 20s leading a pregnancy center before it was as popular and hip to do in the pro -life movement.

09:10

And she was leading that center while pregnant with me. And so she was waddling around the center, loving on moms and saving babies.

09:17

And so if if I wasn't a baby, I wasn't a person. Right. Because I was just the insensate blob of non -person tissue.

09:24

Then I guess whatever is in the mother's body is her body. So according to the law of transitive properties, if A equals

09:31

B and B equals C, then A equals C. So I guess I saved those babies, too, that she saved while I was in her uterus.

09:37

I don't know. I'm trying to figure all this out. But so then I was home. Now, that sounds like proper leftist logic to me. I was

09:44

I was homeschooled through eighth grade grade, Southern California. A long story short,

09:50

I begged my parents to let me go to public school. I wanted to be a sports jock and have the big social scene.

09:56

So I went to Whittier High School, which is Nixon's alma mater in Los Angeles County. And my senior year,

10:02

I did my senior project on abortion, Greg. And they told me, you can't pick the topic of abortion. And I said, here's a copy of the

10:09

Constitution you hacks. I recommend you read it or you're going to have a lawsuit on your hands. And I only embellished a little bit there.

10:15

And so I did threaten to sue my alma mater, Whittier High School in the fall of 2009 at the beginning of my senior year for viewpoint discrimination.

10:27

And they backed off real quick and I did whatever the hell I wanted. I then went off to a fake

10:33

Christian college and Santa Barbara named Westmont College down the street from Oprah's house.

10:40

And I didn't I didn't know, Greg, that I was going with to college with a bunch of wokey woke neo -pagan

10:49

Gnostic Palestine defending pro -abortion Democrats. I didn't realize that. And like my

10:55

New Testament professor at the Palestinian flag on his on his office door, multiple of the professors were pro -choice.

11:02

And so I discovered this as the president of the first pro -life club. And so I held aborted baby photos on campus my junior year after being banned from bringing in an organization to do a similar display.

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And Time magazine covered it. I'm sorry, World magazine covered it.

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Christianity Today covered it before, even before Russell Moore had urinated all over the publication.

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And that was sort of the beginning of my pro -life activism in a very real way.

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And so why do I tell you those stories? Because I took two important lessons with me that have become the tone and tenor of the

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White Rose Resistance, which is the fastest growing pro -life organization in the country, launched right after Roe v. Wade.

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Lesson one. Sometimes when you tell tyrannical little Fauci and Faustian dwarves to sit down, they do because it's just the appearance of strength to cover an inner weakness and they would rule over you if they could.

11:58

But one man plus God equals a majority. And all we needed was me to stand up and look at my high school people in the face and say, shut up,

12:07

I'm going to do whatever I want. We need more of that in the church today. Secondly, in college, I learned that the problem isn't really a bunch of evil

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Moloch like they all worshiping, you know, demons and demons.

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The problem is those of us who know better and do nothing and say nothing because we're cowards, that that was the second lesson

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I took with me, which is really everything we do at the White Rose Resistance. Yes, I do college campus tours,

12:33

Greg, like we go into the fray and we do activism and stuff like that. But almost everything we do is focused on awakening the church.

12:41

You know, Albert Einstein said the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate and encourage evil than from those who actually commit it.

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Sophie Scholl, the namesake of the White Rose Resistance and the namesake of my third child. She said the real damage is done by all of those millions out there who just want to survive.

13:01

It's the honest men and women who just want to be left in peace. Those who don't want their little lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves, those with no sides and no causes, those who won't take measure of their own strength for fear of antagonizing their own weaknesses.

13:16

Those who don't like to make waves are enemies. Those for whom freedom, honor, strength and principles.

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It's just literature. Those who live small, die small. The problem has always been a flatulent, pathetic, cowardly church.

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And we're seeing that more today, I would say, in the last few years than ever before. And that's why

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I love the work you do. It's why I love the work that Clear Truth Media is doing. It's why I love the work that Megan Basham is doing with her book,

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Shepherds for Sale, because we have to expose those in the church who care more about buildings, budgets, baptisms.

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And they're plus one with Rick Warren on Klaus Schwab's jet to go to Davos at the

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World Economic Forum every year. We have to expose those people. And we need bold Christian leadership in the local sphere again, where pastors just care and love for the sheep in the city that they live.

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Because when when Christians live like that simultaneously all around the country and the culture, that's how resistance and reformation happens.

14:21

So welcome to Dead Men Walking. Yeah, I love it. Absolutely. You know, it's funny, you're a fellow disruptor, so we're going to get along great.

14:30

You know, you talk about senior projects. I did mine on the buying of Congress and the pulpit.

14:35

And then I intertwined intertwined both politics and religion.

14:40

And my English teacher said, you can't do it on that. Can you do it on like Smashing Pumpkins or something? Like everyone else, you know, do it on your favorite band or something.

14:49

And, you know, so you're a big fan of LBJ, obviously. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So I've been reading this book that my mentor,

14:58

Dr. George Grant, turned me on to. It's called A Texan Looks at Lyndon, a study in illegitimate power by Jay Everett's Haley.

15:06

Is it good? Yeah. Super interesting. Yeah, I'd recommend it to you. Yeah. Jay Everett's Haley ran for governor of Texas in 1956.

15:13

And so he looks at LBJ. It's a really interesting piece. But but yeah, do it. I mean, you were touching on all the things you're not supposed to.

15:22

So good for you. Yeah, but my point being, too, is from a very young age. I recognize that, you know, the the

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Western Christian church fear and fears the culture more than it fears

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Christ. And when I say fear, I'm not saying scared. I'm saying in the use that Proverbs use it honors and and really reverences.

15:42

So what the Christian church has done is we want honor and reverence from the culture and not necessarily from Christ.

15:49

And I agree with your sentiment that that's probably the most dangerous thing that's happened in the last 15, 20, 25 years.

15:56

And further back, I would say, is is the is the Western church bowing to the culture?

16:01

And that's why the culture wars are so important, because the leftists and the pagans and the secularists understand if you have the culture, you have the majority of the evangelical church.

16:10

And we need guys like you standing up and being disruptors and saying, no, we're not going to do that. And it's funny, because when you stand up to them, you realize it's kind of a straw man.

16:20

Yeah, you know, it's kind of they sit down. Like you said, the emperor has no clothes. The emperor has no clothes.

16:26

Yes. Like Leonard Ravenhill said, Greg, the reason we have so many pygmies in our pews is because we have so many puppets in our pulpits.

16:32

Oh, that's good. It's like Upton Sinclair said. It is almost impossible to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it.

16:43

I sent that to a Christian apologist friend recently who's my our relationship has been completely destroyed.

16:52

You would know his name. Because of his silence on so much of the corruption happening within Christian universities, the church, big

17:01

Eva, big evangelicalism. And I think it really explains so much of what we're seeing today, by the way, Greg. And again, you know, that's why

17:08

I came on your show, because I'm like, oh, this guy's friends with clear truth media, you know, and that's why I love what they're doing over there.

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I wrote up, I think, still to this date, their most viral article. I was a total God thing.

17:19

I don't know how it went so viral. But, you know, Steve Dace read it out loud on his show. John MacArthur's director of grace to you was resharing it.

17:27

Eric Metaxas was resharing it. It really took off. And it was called the most evil man in evangelicalism and those who platformed him.

17:36

And and we looked at all the kind of the big Eva stuff, which I'm happy to get into if you want. But I mean, I think that quote by Upton Sinclair really helps elucidate so much of what we're seeing happen in the culture right now.

17:46

I believe that unless the church flatulent becomes the church militant, it will become the church irrelevant. And for too long, the church has cared far more about sort of their attaboys and accolades from the culture than they than they do about hearing well done or than they do about pure and undefiled religion.

18:06

You know, I just had Megan Basham on the show for the second time. She's a dear friend. We're actually we do a book club with our air support donors at the

18:14

White Rose Resistance. That's people who give seventy dollars a month or more to my ministry. And we read a book together about every six weeks or seven weeks.

18:20

And we talk about it live on Zoom. So we're doing that her book this month in January. She may come on the show to discuss it.

18:26

But she tells this fascinating story in her book. And I think it's one of the most powerful takeaways, actually, from the entire book, which

18:35

I've read all of it. And she talks about the guy who who used to run Christianity today.

18:40

And I'm blanking on this name right now. But he has a now deleted article, which only thanks to the guy who wrote

18:49

Live Not By Lies, Rod Dreher, who captured aspects of that article before it was deleted.

18:56

The former either editor in chief or president of Christianity Today talked about in a now deleted article about how a chill and a buzz would run through the whole office any time their publication would get quoted or retweeted by The Washington Post or The New York Times.

19:15

And he said this thrill went through the office. And there was this excitement as if we've arrived, that we're respected now, that they see us now.

19:26

And he said that that spirit, he said, controlled a lot of the things that they would cover and not cover.

19:32

He even said, for example, you know, if we did ever cover the marriage issue or or male headship issue or women preaching issue.

19:42

Right. We would only cover it from an egalitarian perspective. I mean, he was like openly saying these things.

19:47

Right. Yeah. And then then he deleted it because he basically admitted what what all of clear truth media exists to do.

19:55

What Megan Basham's book exists to do, which is to say y 'all are just hirelings. You care far more about what the culture thinks about you than really obedience and subservience to Christ and standing for righteousness and a standard in a culture of death that is in dire need of the prophetic voice of the church.

20:12

So anyways. Now, this segues us really nicely into the 1916 project, the book and everything surrounding it.

20:18

Can you tell the listeners a little bit about that? Obviously, we're going to link that up below. So if you guys are listening or watching, you can go click through, find out all about Seth and that book.

20:27

But I was flipping through it online, kind of a digital sample. I don't own the book.

20:32

I will be ordering it. Tell us what that's about, because it sounds like it's kind of what we're talking about here in some way.

20:39

Well, all this goes together, right? So I have a chapter in the 1916 project called

20:46

Woke as Wolves. And actually, if if if you guys want like a really great like treatment of Big Eva, if you don't have the stomach for Megan's entire book, which

20:58

I really think every Christian should read Shepherds for Sale, then my chapter is only that.

21:05

And yet it'll tell you everything you need to know about all this stuff. So, yes, of course, all this stuff goes together because evil is powerless when the good are unafraid, to quote

21:14

Ronald Reagan. And and it seems like you understand a lot of this, too. The reason LBJ came up with this idea of the

21:21

Johnston Amendment, which if you don't know what the Johnston Amendment is, guys, that's the whole like separation of church and state.

21:27

Hey, pastors, don't get too political from the pulpit or maybe we'll take your 501C3 status. By the way, they've never actually done that.

21:34

Organizations like mine are in greater danger of losing their tax exempt status, Greg, than churches are.

21:40

Like you said, the emperor has no clothes. It's basically just a facade. But the reason

21:46

LBJ came up with that is because he didn't like the Christians who were criticizing him when he was a senator.

21:52

It's just silenced the church. That's always been part of part of the goal. So anyways, the 1916 project is a documentary in a book.

21:59

It went viral. We've had nearly a thousand churches screen the film since June.

22:05

So it's a 75 minute full length documentary. And the book goes significantly deeper than than I could in a 75 minute film.

22:12

The film features Dr. George Grant, my mentor and the smartest human that I know. Pastor Jack Kibbs, Eric Metaxas, Dr.

22:19

Nancy Piercy, Bishop Wooden, John Amon Chukwu and Bill Federer.

22:25

And so we did church screenings exclusively from June until the end of October. And then we posted it on acts and on Twitter in Spanish and English.

22:35

You got 11 million views together combined. We've now pulled it from Twitter. It was never going to live there.

22:40

It was just for the premiere. And now we're in conversation with distribution partners. So people should be able to stream it very soon.

22:46

Hopefully this quarter, the first quarter of 2025. But guess what? Any church can still host a screening.

22:51

So you can go right now to the 1916 project dot com, the one nine one six project dot com, and you can press host a screening.

22:59

And if your church leadership gives the blessing, you can host that screening at your church right now.

23:05

So and so and the book goes a lot deeper. What is 1916? It's the date when

23:10

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood and the patron saint of feminism, as some have called her, which was actually probably

23:17

Shelley, actually, but in terms of impact, Sanger opened the first Planned Parenthood clinic, the first birth control clinic in the

23:27

Brownsville neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York. That is the beginning of the billion dollar organization we know today is

23:34

Planned Parenthood, who is the largest abortion provider in the world, the largest provider of pornographic comprehensive sexuality education in America's public schools.

23:45

That if your head has not been buried in the sand, Christian, you might have seen angry, pissed off moms and dads speaking at school board meetings in the last three and a half years.

23:55

They're largely pissed off about a lot of the obscene stuff in the kids books. Planned Parenthood is the largest provider of comprehensive sexuality education, and they are now the second largest provider, actually,

24:07

Greg, of puberty blockers and cross -sex hormones. Of course, for America's gender confused youth.

24:14

That's one organization. How does one organization do all of that? Well, you've got to go back to 1916 to understand that the the

24:21

Hitler links, the Nazi links, the KKK links, the the eugenics links, the population reduction links like if people listen to your podcast,

24:32

Greg, they're probably like, yeah, I knew that. Didn't she speak to a KKK chapter? And like, didn't she call like black people human weeds or something like that?

24:41

OK, that's only scratches the surface. Y 'all have no idea. And part of the reason,

24:47

Greg, is that this has been hidden from the American people. Hundred percent. Not it's not a forgotten history, though.

24:53

There's some of that. It's more of a hidden history. Like there has been an attempt by the liberal establishment.

24:58

And I use that word very liberally to curate and manage the history of of of some of the liberals movements or some of their heroines or heroes or, you know, saints, because the history of liberalism.

25:17

And I use that not in the classical sense, but more in the modern sense. The history of liberalism, leftism, call it secular humanism, secular progressivism is so dark and disgusting that your run of the mill

25:33

Kamala voter on the streets, if they were to learn it, would would look at you with a jaw drop like WTF.

25:42

Like what the and how do I know this? Because I like read some of these quotes, people on college campuses.

25:48

Right. And I'll say, you know, who said that? And, you know, or, you know, you tell them what Margaret Sanger did. And your run of the mill

25:54

Democrat voter, Greg, is like, what the heck? Yeah, because if that history were to become common knowledge to the layperson,

26:03

I think most sort of common sense liberals, left of center

26:08

Americans would run, run, run, run from today's

26:13

Democrat Party. And so what's hilarious to me, Greg, is that when it comes to racism, the left is very happy to say that anything that was racist, you know, back then is connected to like everything today.

26:32

And so like you can't distance yourself from it. And so that's why we got to tear down the statues, man. That's why we have to rename universities that were named after founders that we didn't like.

26:43

That's why, you know, Aunt Jemima, if you put that syrup on your pancakes, you're probably a racist.

26:49

Right. Like they say. And then that's the premise of Black Lives Matter, by the way. And critical race theory.

26:55

Right. Like what's that dude's name? Not not Ibram X. Kendi. Ibram X.

27:00

Kendi, it says, and how to be an anti -racist, Greg. He says that the the answer to discrimination then is discrimination now, right, that we have to discriminate against white people because, you know, their great grandpapas discriminated against us.

27:17

Right. I mean, the whole thing is that like if if the if the if the roots of something is racist, then the tree that has grown from those roots is racist as well.

27:27

And by the way, they like told us this in 2020. Right. They said defund the police.

27:33

Remember, because they said, well, the police force originally was used as this way to round up and and recapture escaped slaves, which, by the way, some of that's true.

27:45

But but they say, therefore, like it's racist today like that, those seeds are still there. And so you got to defund the police.

27:51

OK, now do Margaret Sanger. Now do Alfred. Right. Now do Hugh Hefner.

27:57

Right. You notice how they don't apply those same premises to their heroines and heroes today. So a lot of what we've done with this,

28:04

Greg, is to simply expose what has been hidden, you know, in Psalm 88. It talks about how righteousness cannot be done in a land of forgetfulness.

28:12

Right. In Hosea four, six, God says my people are being destroyed for lack of knowledge.

28:19

They're actually being destroyed actively now. We're being destroyed for lack of knowledge in the

28:25

American church today. And I'll tell you, that's the number one response I have received from the tens of thousands of people who have watched this movie live and from reading the book is the response.

28:35

I've never heard any of this before. Yeah. So, yeah, I guess we're trying to make

28:41

Margaret Sanger famous. And my contention is that she's probably the most successful like leftist revolutionary of the 20th century in terms of her impact on today's culture.

28:53

Not even Alfred Kinsey could have been who he was without walking down a trail.

28:58

Margaret Sanger had already been had already blazed for him. Yeah. And so that's a little bit of what the 1916 project is.

29:05

And it finishes both in the film and the book with a call to Christian resistance, telling the story of the heroes of the original white rose resistance in Nazi Germany.

29:14

But it's a beautiful film aesthetically, philosophically, ideologically, spiritually.

29:20

It's a beautiful film. So I would recommend the book and the film to your audience. And thanks for letting me rant.

29:26

No, I love it. And I'm glad you're fighting that fight, because, you know, I was just talking to someone last week about how demoralizing and how frustrating it can be when you seem like you've been in the trenches on certain subjects for years and years, sometimes even decades.

29:41

And then some of those subjects you see come to fruition and people come into enlightenment on it.

29:46

But still, I think Sanger is one of those to where we have made some headway. But like you said, the mass majority of just people in general don't understand the facts about who she was, what she believed, what her life was like.

30:00

And if they did, I'm echoing you. It would be I mean, it would be like a bomb going off if actual mainstream went out and said, this is what we're basing our whole ideal on.

30:11

Yeah. Over the last hundred. And I mean, remember, like Nancy Pelosi got the Margaret Sanger Award. Great. It's an award.

30:17

That's what I mean. Hillary Clinton got the Margaret Sanger Award. And Kamala Harris was working really hard to get the

30:22

Margaret Sanger Award. By the way, Kamala Harris is the first is sort of the first Margaret Sanger.

30:28

She, too, slept her way up the levers of power. But anyway, that's a conversation for another time. But Kamala Harris was really trying to get the

30:35

Margaret Sanger Award and Planned Parenthood loves her. And then they just stopped giving it in the summer of 2020. In July of 2020, due to pressure from BLM, by the way, this is because the revolution will always eat its own.

30:47

And so in July of 2020, BLM, Antifa and the and the disciples of the 1619

30:52

Project, not the 1916 Project, the 1619 Project said, hey, hey, this was right after they canceled

30:58

Aunt Jemima, you know, and they were calling to defund the police. Pro -abortion leftists and BLM, not pro -lifers said, hey,

31:06

Planned Parenthood, your founder, Margaret Sanger, was a racist and a eugenicist. And I was like front row seats, man. Popcorn, lots of butter, extra large

31:12

Dr. Pepper. I'm here for it all. Like this is hilarious. And and so they came to the pressure from the pro -abortion left and they took her name off of the

31:20

Margaret Sanger Center. New York City, their mega Planned Parenthood clinic on Bleecker Street.

31:26

They took her name off of it. New York City got rid of the sign that said the Margaret Sanger Square, for goodness sake.

31:32

And it was that month that they stopped giving out the Margaret Sanger Award. Now, listen, can you imagine if, you know,

31:38

I don't know, the GOP had been giving out like, you know, some awards in the name of some racist or something or slave owner, you know, to to like mainstream

31:47

Republicans? Can you imagine the kind of field day the media would have with that? What what the DNC would do with that?

31:54

Well, I would love I would love to ask some questions of Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and the entire liberal establishment who defended her and carried water for her for decades as to what they would say about some of her quotes, you know, like what like what do you what do you what do you what do you have to say to Margaret Sanger saying we are paying for and even submitting to the dictates of an ever increasing, unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born at all?

32:16

What would you say to her, quote, when she said the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over fertility of the mentally and physically defective?

32:24

What would you have to say to the woman who called for sterilization and segregation camps to be set up on US soil?

32:30

What would you say about the woman who said that we should sterilize young women? And then if we determine that they're fit enough to have kids, then we can undo the sterilization process if we decide to let them have kids in the process.

32:41

What would you say to the woman who said our objective is unlimited sexual gratification without the burden of unwanted children?

32:48

Or how about to the woman who said keep the doors of immigration closed to the entrance of certain clients whose condition is known to be detrimental to the to the stamina of the race?

32:57

I mean, like we could go on and on and on and on. Like I could read these quotes to people and say, who said this?

33:05

You know, Donald Trump or Barack Obama. And they would all think that these were some sort of like, you know, racist, xenophobic comments that they attribute to Trump.

33:18

It's like, no, that's Margaret Sanger. You know what I mean? So anyways, I think I think we have made a lot of progress and I think we're only beginning to do that.

33:25

And we're going to be making another film soon that goes even deeper into the history of Christian resistance. But but the reality is, is that none of this stuff is new.

33:33

And I think that that's really the takeaway is so many Christians think that that what we're seeing with with transgenderism, with with euthanasia, with the sexualization of our children, with the sexualization in pop culture, that all this stuff is new.

33:52

They're not they're not new. The only reason they're new to us is that we don't know our history. Every single great hero of the faith through the ages, missionaries, martyrs, confessors, fathers of the faith, we're all battling this battle that is before us now.

34:06

And at the White Rose Resistance, we believe, Greg, that if Western civilization is to survive, this is our last stand.

34:14

This is the front of the battlefield. This is the tip of the spear. And all of it is one battle. All of it is.

34:20

I'm not calling for the pro -life movement to, you know, try to start rescuing children from sex trafficking.

34:26

Like we he who fights everywhere, fights nowhere. And we support the ministries that do that.

34:32

However, we have to see it as one thing, as one Leviathan, one beast with different tentacles.

34:38

And if you don't understand how the Leviathan operates, you know, cutting off one tentacle over and over again is not going to eventually slay the beast.

34:47

And so there have been different episodes along the way in various moments where Christians have prevailed in the last 2000 years.

34:53

But then Christians, often in the midst of their prosperity and their victory, fall asleep and the old foes resurrect.

35:00

So until we recognize that righteousness cannot be done in a land of forgetfulness, until we remember who we are, whose we are, and the the great playwright that we've been written into, then none of this evil is going to stop.

35:17

The church has to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, actually, because that's where actually the most exciting things begin to happen.

35:25

When you when you surrender and join Aslan on the field of battle and see what happens.

35:31

Yeah, absolutely. Kind of mimics and reminds me of Israel and Yahweh and how they kept, you know, once they'd have a victory, fall back into pleasure and kind of complacency.

35:42

And the Lord would have to remind him, I am the God who brought your forefathers out of Egypt. Yeah. As a young Christian, you go, is

35:48

God just why does he keep reminding them of that? Why is he? You know, and you go, oh, because we're stupid in our sin nature and our depravity.

35:55

We used to build altars, Greg. We used to create high holy days, the church in antiquity.

36:01

Why? To say to say to yourself, your children and your grandchildren. Don't forget.

36:07

Yeah. Don't forget what happened then. It's like in Narnia. When when

36:12

Aslan tells Jill Paul, you know, when you go down into the valley and you go down into the land, your mind is going to start forgetting the clues that I gave you.

36:24

Yeah. Repeat them to yourselves over and over again or else in the midst of the busyness and the chaos and the distractions, your mind is prone to forget.

36:35

And he tells her as he as as she's flying on the wind down into Narnia, repeat the clues to yourself.

36:42

The Bible says, write them on your foreheads, put them on the walls of your home. Don't forget what

36:49

God did then. And part of not forgetting is not just forgetting how God moved, right? How he saves.

36:55

It's also don't forget the nature of evil. Yeah. Don't don't forget the foes that that your savior conquered on that day because because you actually can't defeat an enemy that you don't understand and you can't destroy an enemy that you don't know exists.

37:10

And Greg, I think most of the church today doesn't even know that we're in a war. Yeah. No, agreed.

37:16

Yeah. Seth, all good stuff, which takes me into my next point. I can understand why you're going to be speaking at the

37:21

Dangerous Friends Conference, March 13th and 14th, Redemption Church in Monclova, Ohio. I will be there live podcasting.

37:27

You will be speaking. I love the title and I think you fit it perfectly. What you know,

37:32

Dangerous Friends together post -denominational. We're going to have people there from different denominations, maybe slightly different in some secondary tertiary issues.

37:41

I do believe looking at the speaker lineup, we all believe in Orthodox Christianity. The tenants, you know,

37:48

I was talking to Stephen Whitlow, who's the pastor of Redemption Church, saying we probably we all fall under the

37:53

Apostles Creed and believe those core doctrines. So we have some some different dangerous friends coming together at this conference that are that are coming from different angles, maybe theologically, but but kind of are all under the idea of fighting

38:10

Leviathan, like you said. Tell me what you're going to be talking about. Don't don't give us the full thing, but maybe just give us a sneak peek or what angle are you taking at that conference, which

38:20

I'm excited to see you speak at? Yeah, the angle that is is this interesting line that.

38:30

Cardinal Henry Edward Manning told a young Hilaire Belloc at the turn of the century just before 1900,

38:42

Belloc was G .K. Chesterton's best friend. They were such good friends, by the way, that their their opponents labeled them

38:50

Chester Belloc. They just called them Chester Belloc. And there's there's these quotes you can find that you're not sure who wrote it, because it says

38:58

Chester Belloc. And so Hilaire Belloc was a Catholic, as was

39:03

Chesterton. I'm no Catholic, but listen, I think I think Protestants should read good Catholic writers and Catholics should read good

39:09

Protestant writers. Sure. And but, you know, I mean, Chesterton is many Christians favorite author.

39:14

And the guy was a Catholic. Anyways, Cardinal Henry Edward Manning told a young a 20 year old

39:19

Hilaire Belloc. He said all human conflict is ultimately theological. And I've sort of read some of the history behind their friendship.

39:33

It's really interesting. At the time, Belloc said that the phrase meant meant almost nothing to him, that as a 20 year old, it seemed so confusing.

39:44

He said he said this saying of of his that all human conflict, all of it is actually theological.

39:52

That is that all wars and all revolutions and all decisive struggles between parties of men actually arise from a difference in morals and transcendental doctrine.

40:00

He said this was utterly novel to me. To a young man, he said the saying was without meaning.

40:05

I would have almost said it was nonsensical. But as I grew older, it became a searchlight. He said with the observation of the world and with reading of history, it came to possess for me a universal meaning so profound that it reached to the very roots of political action so extended that it covered the whole.

40:25

In other words, that once we understand that there is an unseen realm, that that the that Satan, who masquerades as an angel of light, has no original ideas, he has no original stories.

40:39

He actually cannot create. All he can do is mimic and copycat.

40:45

And once we see the really the eternal struggle and the spiritual war behind the culture war in America, everything begins to make a lot of sense.

40:56

And so what I'll be talking about is is this common denominator sort of pagan heresy or actually it was an old

41:06

Christian heresy that animates and is the driving force behind everything we see in the 21st century today, from same sex marriage to the rainbow cult, to euthanasia, to transhumanism, to transgenderism, to abortion.

41:21

It's all the result of false religion that we've allowed to wreak havoc, not just on the culture, but in the church amongst

41:27

Christians who are so confused that they don't even see the spiritual war for what it is anymore. But I'm super excited to be at the at the conference with you and with the other people, because I really believe that if that if we can't get over our theological differences now to unite for life, liberty, babies, prosperity, the next generation, then we'll be debating those differences behind prison bars.

41:50

Yeah, it reminds me of the the sinking of the Spanish Armada in in 1588.

41:58

The Spanish Armada was the biggest Navy in the entire planet at the time. 130 ships, 1500 brass guns, 8000 sailors and 18000 soldiers.

42:11

And the Dutch and the English had to work together to win against the Spanish Armada. The Dutch were

42:16

Dutch reformed and the English were Anglican. And like today, such theological differences often prevent

42:23

Christians from uniting together. But with this looming threat of the most powerful Navy in the world about to break under their shores, the

42:31

Dutch and the English had to look past those differences, unite together. And they did defeat the Spanish Armada.

42:36

And it's one of the most incredible stories, because without the defeat of the Spanish Armada, England would have become

42:42

Catholic and the Reformation would have likely been squashed. There would have been no Anglican England.

42:48

There would have been no Puritans wanting to purify it. No pilgrim separatists fleeing from it.

42:54

No New England colonies being settled and quite possibly no United States of America. And I think we need that same sort of unity today.

43:01

Yeah, it's kind of I mean, is it kind of the enemy of your enemy is my friend or is it a little different than that?

43:07

Because I was I was kind of wondering, you know, how do we form these alliances with dangerous friends? What do we base it on?

43:15

And who is it OK to link arms with and battle against certain things? And who isn't like what's your opinion on that?

43:22

Yeah, so this is a conversation that I think a lot of people on the right are having right now and and in the church.

43:30

And I think it is important because you don't you don't want to sacrifice integrity or or core doctrines on the altar of political expediency.

43:48

But at the same time, here's an example, let's say a let's say a female preacher, pastor in nineteen forty two goes to Dietrich Bonhoeffer and says,

44:04

Pastor Bonhoeffer, we have to stop this insanity, whatever it takes.

44:11

How can I and my church help? Stop Hitler and smuggle Jews out of Nazi Germany with you.

44:19

Something tells me Bonhoeffer wouldn't have said, get out of here. Right. Like now, you know,

44:25

OK, so, you know, we're in agreement that I think God has called men to be pastors.

44:31

OK, yes. But I'm not going to not work with a, you know, a husband, wife, pastor team or a female pastor.

44:41

When they say I want to save the unborn and abolish abortion and overturn Obergefell and reinstitute marriage as the only as as a man and a woman is the only institution that can safeguard

44:54

Western civilization. Like I'm going to work with anyone who says let's stop murdering the babies. OK, right.

44:59

So I think I think we have to have clarity on essentials and and liberty and issues that are not directly linked to salvation.

45:12

For example, I know some amazing men of God that I believe are spirit filled who are old earth micro evolutionists.

45:24

But they believe God worked through the process of evolution and it was all God the entire time. And it was an electrified sludge that happened to arrange itself into what we call consciousness.

45:32

OK, I'm not going to die on that hill when that person's like God still created

45:38

Adam and Eve. God still did the whole process. I just believe that he did it over millions of years.

45:43

And and so now let's let's ban abortion and overturn Obergefell. Praise God. Let's go to war together.

45:49

You know what I mean? So I think there are some issues where it does get more complicated. But obviously, any pastor or individual who believes in gay marriage, who believes in abortion, who believes in the sexualization of our children, who believes in trans kids, who puts a flag outside of their church, any kind of individual who calls themselves a

46:11

Christian and did these kind of things, we absolutely cannot partner with because those are actually core gospel issues.

46:17

When you talk about what is man, what is woman, what are what are we made for? What is a baby?

46:22

What is what did God intend marriage for? If you can't get those issues right, then I don't trust you on anything else.

46:29

So so what are your thoughts on the second follow up to that question? So what are your thoughts about unbeliever versus believer, but maybe being on the right side of a trend?

46:39

Transcendental moral issues say I'm agnostic. I don't particularly believe in a higher power or a

46:45

God. But yeah, I'm on the side of saving innocent lives because for whatever reason, unbeknownst to them, they believe life is valuable or maybe, you know, the trans issue or something.

46:57

Yeah. Would we say, yeah, let's partner with that unbeliever to where, you know, maybe they're still violating one of the

47:04

Ten Commandments, have no other gods before me. They don't even believe in that. But they believe in thou shall not merit murder. Thou shall not steal thou.

47:10

You know, the other thou shalt. Where do you land on that on informal partnership versus informal partnership?

47:17

Yeah, I think I think it all it all depends on what you mean by partnership, right? So like I if if a if a

47:25

Satanist said, I hate abortion and I want to see it abolished.

47:32

Can I go stand with you on the sidewalk for sidewalk counseling? And try to convince women to not kill their babies?

47:39

I would say, come along with me. We're going to open up in prayer to Jesus, though. Right. You know,

47:45

I think compatible probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It all depends on what you mean by partnership. Now, would

47:50

I hire that person? No, obviously not. The White Rose Resistance is actually an evangelical ministry.

47:56

It's that we actually have a statement of faith. We're actually a Christian ministry. You know, so it all depends on what you mean by partnership.

48:02

My my old pastor from California, Pastor Rob McCoy, he described it as, you know, paddling up the streams of liberty.

48:11

And so if if if like a homosexual wants to jump in the canoe with you and paddle up the streams of liberty because they they are opposing the shutdown mandates and the vaccine mandates and the mask mandates and the and the shutting of our schools, then let's partner with them on that.

48:27

And let's preach the gospel to them as we're partnering together in sort of a common venture. Right. But but like, you know, like I wouldn't even put someone on my board of directors or hire someone who wasn't a born again

48:38

Christian. So I think it all depends on what we mean by partnership. I we're in agreement that Christless conservatism is no conservatism at all.

48:48

And I think that's becoming blatantly clear. I've gone pretty hard after Carrie Lake, Vivek Ramaswamy, Donald Trump, because of their their really their caving on the fundamentals like the unborn marriage parenthood that if we can't get those issues right, then we're not going to conserve anything in the long term.

49:09

I mean, Vivek Ramaswamy was just at a Trump event two weeks before the election. And he was like he was like, if you you can marry whoever you want, you know, sleep with whoever you want.

49:18

But that doesn't mean, he said, that you should be able to sexually mutilate our children or the boy should be able to compete against girls.

49:24

So like apparently biology really matters when it comes to gender for him, but it doesn't matter at all when it comes to parenthood.

49:36

It's like, well, no, you can't have it that way. And so, you know, at the end, I think this is why

49:41

I think we actually need Christian nationalism, which is like this thing that just makes David French and Russell more urinate in their pants because they're just controlled opposition or, you know, total idiots.

49:51

But listen, like Christian nationalism used to just be called Christian patriotism. Christian nationalism is just a more recent phrase.

49:59

And it's really just been used by the radical left and by big evangelicalism to smear believers who just believe what every

50:05

Christian believe for all of human history, which is that you love God, but you also love the country you live in because your house is in a community which is in a neighborhood, which is in a city, which is in a county, which is in a state, which is in a nation.

50:17

And so obviously you want America first, just like you want neighborhood first. It's no more idolatrous to say

50:24

America first than it is to say neighborhood first or city first, because it's like, dude, it's where I live.

50:31

OK. And so if we're going to honor God, then then we do actually have to love our country because it's where our neighbors live.

50:39

And we want the best policies, the best laws and the best kind of culture that's going to protect our neighbors and encourage and promote human flourishing.

50:47

And so unless Christians actually take the reign again, politically and culturally, we're ultimately not going to conserve anything.

50:55

And I and my proof of that, by the way, is today's GOP. It's today's Republican National Committee, who all of them look like Democrats 15 years ago.

51:03

Yeah. Fifteen years behind the Dems. Yeah. You know, it's funny about that. And maybe you can comment on this quickly as we put bookends on this episode is

51:10

I had this thought about two years ago when the Christian nationalism thing really started, you know, gaining some ground was, you know, you had kind of the more left leaning, more,

51:20

I would say, progressive Christianity. And let's say like a Tim Keller who started the city movement, right? Cities for God, cities for Christ.

51:27

We're going to take over the city. This many saved. And you went, well, not a whole lot of liberals had had a problem with the whole city movement.

51:34

But then as soon as you elevate it to national movement, it seems to, you know, upset some people.

51:39

And I think maybe some more biblical doctrine and theology attached to it. Maybe that's what really upset them.

51:45

But we didn't have any issues with with cities taking over neighborhoods and cities, I mean, for decades and decades. That was the cry of maybe the more moderate left evangelical

51:54

Christian world. And now when we go, OK, well, let's take it up to the nation and let's actually link it to some solid theology.

52:01

Everyone except Greg, even what even what Tim Keller meant, by the way, like I've read his entire book,

52:07

Center Church, his entire textbook on church planning. OK, so I'm actually believe me. I know exactly what his sort of soteriology is, his theology, his eschatology, his public theology.

52:21

And he never meant by that. Let's fill the school boards and the mayor's office and the city council with believers.

52:29

What he meant with that is sort of what we've come to just say is like just preach the gospel, right?

52:35

Just preach the gospel. You know, there's this with your actions. And then sometimes if you need to use words, right, right, right.

52:41

There's this interesting story about Amy Carmichael. So sadly, many of Amy Carmichael's fellow missionaries,

52:48

Greg, having, I think, partially accepted the presuppositions of of Malthusianism.

52:56

Yeah. Believe that her effort to build an orphanage and an orphanage and schools was was a worldly activity that distracted her from the saving of souls.

53:08

Right. That she that she should. That was the beginning, right, Greg, of like just preach the gospel. Right. Like like why are you so political?

53:15

Right. Which is what we all hear today when when Christians try to get involved in the public sphere for the glory of God.

53:21

Now, I would tell them, why are you so spiritual? Yeah, political. You're being theological. To these accusations,

53:28

Greg, Amy Carmichael replied. Souls are more or less firmly attached to bodies.

53:35

Just like beautiful, perfect, pithy reply, because we're a hylomorphic entity, we're a unity of both body and soul.

53:43

And so you should care about that. You should care about the policies that affect your neighbors. You should care about ending abortion because it rips bodies apart and it murders babies.

53:51

And Tim Keller, you know, who I think probably has has been more has moved the

53:56

Overton window further left in American evangelicalism than anyone else that I'm aware of.

54:01

He tells a story in an old Christianity Today article that you can still find, I think it's from 1999.

54:07

And he talked about an ACLU lawyer who started attending King's Church, New York's King's Redeemer Presbyterian Church.

54:17

Sorry, King's is the name of my pastor's friend's church in New York City. The only one that's bold that I'm aware of.

54:23

But at Redeemer Presbyterian and and she eventually got saved. And he tells a story about like this is a proof kind of of his his method and his strategy of evangelism.

54:35

And he says the one time this ACLU attorney walked up to him and said, Pastor Tim, is abortion wrong?

54:44

And he tells this story in this article and he says, I told her that it was. And she said, oh, well, if it's wrong, you should certainly tell people that it is.

54:56

But I'm glad about the order in which you did it. And and he and he said, what did you mean by that?

55:01

She said, if I had seen any references to the pro -life movement or abortion when

55:07

I began visiting Redeemer Presbyterian Church, I would have never come back. But I got saved and discipled.

55:16

And so I'm grateful that I've now come to that knowledge. And he props up this story,

55:21

Greg, is this example of discipleship. In other words, clerical silence in the face of child sacrifice is an acceptable means of evangelism.

55:33

Don't don't preach against things like abortion from the pulpit. Certainly don't disciple your people to like,

55:39

I don't know, sidewalk council outside abortion centers or go get elected on the school board to kick

55:44

Planned Parenthood's porn sex ed out of the curriculum. He would never say that.

55:50

Just preach the gospel. And then maybe eventually they'll realize through their own refinement that maybe ripping children apart in the name of radical feminism is wrong.

56:01

So even even the sort of the religious liberals like Tim Keller, who were all fine about taking the city for the kingdom city by city, didn't even mean by that what we mean by that.

56:14

They just tell people that Jesus loves them. And then basically as the madman drives the car drunk into a crowd of innocent bystanders, just yell at him as he's about to murder himself and others.

56:26

Jesus loves you. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. But how would Bonhoeffer and other sort of resistance heroes of the faith before us respond to that scenario?

56:36

Well, he said, if I if I sit next to a madman as he drives a car into a group of innocent bystanders,

56:42

I can't as a Christian simply wait for the catastrophe to happen, then comfort the wounded and bury the dead.

56:48

I must try to wrestle the steering wheel out of the hand of the driver. And what we're saying and what you're saying, a dead man walking at Clear Truth Media at the

56:56

White Rose Resistance, is that unless the church flatulent becomes the church militant, it will become the church irrelevant.

57:04

I love it. All right. Throw up the socials. We'll link them up below, guys, if you want to follow Seth and what he's doing. But throw it out for all the listeners where they can find you or where you want them to meet you.

57:12

Yeah, you can follow us at the white rose dot life on Instagram and Seth Gruber official. You can go to the 1916 project dot com, the one nine one six project dot com to pick up a copy of my book.

57:23

By the way, it's called the 1916 project, the lying, the witch and the war we're in. And you can get that from us.

57:28

And you can host a screening of the film at your church. It will change your life. It's a beautiful, transformational film. And then join us in Washington, D .C.

57:35

on January 23rd for life or death con. You can go to life or death con dot com.

57:40

That's also linked on our main website. Ali Besteki, Eric Metaxas, Dr. George Grant, Dr. Nancy Piercy, myself and more the day before the

57:48

National March for Life. And you can join us as a supporter. Join our book club if you'd like. But thank you,

57:53

Greg, for your time and for your voice. Oh, no. Awesome. That sounds like an awesome lineup. Guys, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Deadman Walking Podcast, as always.

58:01

You can find out more about us at DMW Podcast. You can support us through the merch to get one of these spiffy wine, um, dine, um,

58:08

Romans nine, um, uh, mugs or maybe even the new T -shirt. That's out. How about you shut up and let that be your wisdom?

58:14

Job, 13, five. Got to quote scripture to the pagans, even if they don't like it. Guys, thanks for telling a friend. Thanks for hanging out.

58:19

We appreciate you. Remember the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. God bless. Be sure to check us out at DMW podcast dot com, where you can purchase the best and snarkiest merch on the internet.

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Support the show and leave us a review or message. Deadman walking can be found on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at dead men walking podcast. And on Twitter X at real

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DMW podcast, the dead men walking podcast is part of the fight lap piece network for exclusive show content. Be sure to download the pub TV app and become a member.

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If you're a business that needs to reach hundreds of thousands of potential customers in your demographic podcast, advertising might be for you. Send all inquiries to dead men, walking podcast at gmail .com.