A Ride Through the Stack-O-Stuff

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line Tuesday morning

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Finishing up the month of October. It's finally getting cool around here had the windows open today it's gonna drop 26 degrees between today and tomorrow and I am looking forward to that I can guarantee you

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Some of you back east aren't looking forward to that. But hey, that's okay. It's our time

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Had a great weekend this weekend with a bunch of reformed Baptists in Southern, California. There are a few of us around and Had a very interesting evening

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Friday evening at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in La Mirada right next to the campus of Biola University and Talbot Theological Seminary and Have had a lot of positive response to the presentation we made that evening

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I gave a beef a beef. Yes a beef a beefy biblical providence a brief biblical providence there we go, hopefully it had some beef to it and Then we took a break and then we discussed the subject of middle knowledge doesn't shock any of you who were listening last week

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That's pretty normal for me to do things like that. That's what I'm thinking about. That's what I'm working on So that's what we did on the program, but we did it for a little longer than we did last time and many of the same quotations

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Except now with a nice pretty presentation and stuff like that drawing primarily from William Lane Craig's book the only wise

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God and Had lots of folks from Biola there, I believe there were some staff folks there

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From Biola as well, and it's within walking distance of the campus So we had a we had a good crowd there that evening and I hope that they were blessed

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I think it's a subject that needs to be addressed. I remember in one particular well -known national situation

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When I wasn't on the air one of the people in the studio kept defaulting back to well Maybe it's middle knowledge or maybe it's middle knowledge, you know, and I think it's it's good to address those things.

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I just realized that I forgot to bring up somebody in a channel throw up the

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There was someone on a I think our minion outpost or something like that I saw it on try a blog and I I had it in my

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Had it on the list and wait a minute. I marked it as unread Give me one second here

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Let me see here If I can find it in my Google Reader real fast mmm and Is it here at the bottom someplace?

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Yes, there it is Technology comes to the day Steve over try blog had mentioned here it is.

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It's the Arminian Chronicles. That's what it is That's an author there had written

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James White discussed Molanism on a recent dividing line his two primary criticisms of middle knowledge

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God's What you would do under any circumstances were one it doesn't accomplish God's goal of giving man free will which makes man robots and doesn't escape

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Unconditional election to middle knowledge removes God's sovereignty in places too much in the hands of man's autonomous free will

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Thereby limiting what God can do this creation robbing God of his glory now That is not an accurate representation what

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I said, that's the problem the the individual doesn't seem to understand What my two criticisms that point were but he goes on to say awkwardly for dr.

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White Sometimes he would raise both objections the same train of thought seemingly unaware of how it odds these

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To claims things we TWO claims are to each other Both cannot be problems at the same time nor were his objections based on two distinct aspects of Molanism They're both based directly on idea that God knows what you would do under any circumstances

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It's odd that those objecting to Molanism's consistency use such inconsistent approaches such as this well. I'm sorry our

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Writer here just completely missed the boat And I'm sorry that that's that that's the case what

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I said was that the idea that God can have

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Absolute knowledge of what an uncreated undecreed free creature would do given any possible circumstances is a kind of autonomy without Libertarianism because That means in any in any given world in any possible world

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There's only one thing that a person could do and that's not the kind of libertarianism the autonomy

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That the Arminian is actually looking for the Arminian wants a situation where you can do

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X and not X at the exact same time the exact same way in the exact same circumstances and to say well

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Then God's middle knowledge would change does not answer the question if God's middle knowledge changes Then that person and that world would never be actuated.

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So it just doesn't it doesn't accomplish What its proponents are trying to make it accomplish.

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That's one problem But you can have more than one problem with any system it's it's amazing

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That that our author here doesn't understand this I mean arianism is an error that has multitudes of ramifications as far as problems are concerned with with who

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Christ is and what salvation is and revelation of scripture all sorts of things it Can have all sorts of problems just as middle knowledge does and so my other

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Objection and I actually made more than that. But my other objection was that as dr

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Craig presents this concept the the concept of middle knowledge delimits

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The possible creations that God can make It's not the what delimits his options is not found from within him because Definitional middle knowledge is the idea that this is before the decree to create so What then defines the essence of these counterfactuals that defines what possible worlds can be made?

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It doesn't come from God's being it comes from the these hypothetical free choices of these free creatures

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And so it does turn God's personal sovereignty Where he creates a world that glorifies himself in the way that he desires to be glorified

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It turns him into a person who is it's the sovereignty of the used car lot

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The the sovereignty of God a middle knowledge is the sovereignty of the used car lot that is God can only do the best he can do with what he's got available if You want a certain kind of car and Middle knowledge doesn't provide you a certain kind of car.

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You can't get it It's it's a it's the the deals are limited to what's on the lot and God has done the best he can do running the numbers with what's on the lot and that is not a personal sovereignty and Both of those are problems of middle knowledge and there's no contradiction whatsoever because they arise from different elements of middle knowledge

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No contradiction whatsoever. So I appreciate the attempt But it

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Belongs on the fail blog. It didn't make it. Yeah, you know It occurred to me after the last show that as I recall it was

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RC sprawling and chosen by God that he mentions God being Having to be in control of every single molecule that there is no stray

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Molecule out there that could come back around and threaten him and in the middle knowledge system

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Do they take that kind of thinking into account? In other words? What if God's middle knowledge says that I would do

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XY and Z given a particular circumstance and I do

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X Y and Z squared no, no because that would change his middle knowledge see that middle knowledge is the basis upon which

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God creates and so since he has this perfect middle knowledge, then he knows exactly what you're gonna do and you can do nothing else and once you get outside the realm of free creatures

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Then God exercises a meticulous providence over all non free creaturely entities so as to see

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God can can utilize Circumstances to put you into this into the situation to get you to do what he wants you to do see and so he has meticulous providence over earthquakes and fires and and all the rest that stuff and Evidently as I've listened to William Lane Craig discuss the problem of evil.

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His argument is that that this world has

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Sufficient evil in it to cause the most number of people to believe in him that's where all that comes from and so it's a it's a very very

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Anyway, I wanted I want to mention that one dimension that I gave the audio recordings to a rich this morning

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The video recordings of the entire thing is on YouTube add them up by 10 o 'clock the next morning

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So you can watch all of that on the YouTube page. So those will be available to you there and then on Sunday spoke at the

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Ontario Church the Sovereign Grace Church the Reformed Baptist Church in Ontario Pastor Mark Adand and the folks there were sort of the ones that sort of took the lead on all of this and I really appreciate everything they did and then to the the whole group

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At Colony High School we met at a large facility there so we could all get together It's great to have I think there are eight different churches involved and I gave a

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Reformation Day sermon on what has changed and what has stayed the same since the days of the

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Reformation and unfortunately, I Forgot to bring my camera and so I didn't record it and they didn't record either.

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So it's gone. It's history It is in the ether someplace and that's just the way that goes

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So I had a great time there and next trip is out to New York We have found a

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Muslim representative To do the debate on November 7th So I'll be trying to get that information on the blog here as quickly as I can

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I have asked some of our process of Paula Guillaume folks to Put together.

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I guess there already is an unofficial Facebook page for us But I'm going to ask a number of people to be involved in maybe well

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I guess I guess my blog stuff can just what can automatically be posted to it and All my

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Twitter stuff can be automatically posted to it So they'll put that stuff up, but especially

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Try to put together some type of a calendar thing You know cull from the blog when I throw these things out there So that's at one spot and once that's put together then we can link to that along with the

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YouTube page and stuff like that And you can you know track us down that way so but I will be in New York November 7th through the 12th

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So I'll be speaking Sunday morning and Sunday night. I've already put this on the blog so you can look at it But that's that's where People take that and then put it in some place where it doesn't scroll down and you have to go searching for and things like that That'll be what is good about doing doing that and so that is coming up in a very short time

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In fact, I'm not even bothering to bring my luggage back here where I normally store it. I'm just leaving it the house because there's

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I've been doing a lot of traveling recently me and Sky Harbor Airport are on very intimate terms now, so anyway

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Next thing on the list here. I've got a There's a really famous guy. He's the really really famous guy who has a stack of stuff.

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Well. I've got a stack of stuff today, too There's the first thing second thing Patrick Madrid our good buddy

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Pat Madrid Put up a a blog article yesterday and It's second

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Timothy 3 14 through 17 the Protestant slogan of solo scriptura I was honored to appear a while back on the deep in scripture radio show hosted by my good friend

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Marcus grode I a former Presbyterian minister and convert of the Catholic Church We spent the hour discussing aspects of one of my favorite scripture passages second

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Timothy 3 14 through 17 This biblical text is routinely misunderstood and woefully misused by today's

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Protestant pop apologists and Woefully misused by today's Protestant pop apologists is a link to guess what?

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Yes, Patrick Madrid's long discredited long refuted never rehabilitated by him But we just keep putting it out there anyways because we've got nothing better to do white man's burden from 1993

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Just I mean it's it's it's amazing Anyways, woefully misused by today's Protestant pop apologists and their attempt to vindicate the notion of soul scriptura

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So it's especially worth studying in context and with regard for its powerful role in refuting typical Protestant confusions

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Regarding the authority of scripture obviously there is far more It can it must be said about this passage far more than marks

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And I had time to get to during our discussion in the space of just one hour But hopefully this will give you a general outline of the issues at stake.

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You can listen to the entire show here, which I did I Clicked on the link and I listened to the entire show

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May I graciously say that if that is deep in the scripture Well that does explain why it is that Patrick Madrid's books are so short

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Patrick Madrid's books are shallow short simplistic little tomes

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That never go into any depth at all. I'm sorry, but I've had Catholics agree with that by them

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Look at them yourself. They they're little more than the level of a of a this rock article cut down they very very shallow and The comments on this program were nothing more than what

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Patrick Madrid said 1993 But it's interesting to me That while he kept referring to a certain debate he had done and a certain

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Protestant minister guess what as normal he would never use my name and You really start wondering because anyone who knows anything about apologetics knows who he's talking about So he can't be overly concerned about Protestants who?

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Who actually know something about apologetics? Who is the audience of these Catholic apologists that keep putting out this fluff this shallow?

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Repetitive the same thing over and over again never show any Interest in responding to criticism of their positions and when you challenge them on that what do they do they go well?

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Those people just aren't worthy of our time. I mean they're not they I'm there's not saying anything worthwhile you know and who is the audience that's believing that because the person who is listening to both sides and who takes the time to Listen to the the depth that we went into in responding in reviewing for example the soul scriptura debate

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Just a few months ago, or the veneration of the Saints and Angels debate that we did went through all of that in -depth

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Reads my rebuttal of the white man's burden and goes wow if he's right that they're where's where's

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Patrick Madrid's response Where's his reaction all the stuff it doesn't exist He knows that it's been there

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He knows that article has stood refuted all that time, but he still just keeps going back to these old things

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Which if he was right about what he's saying, why isn't why is it my phone ringing with further?

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Invitations I mean if all those debate if those two debates We did in the past were so good, and he won them so so handily wouldn't it be really wise to do some more

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To address these issues some more, but that doesn't happen That that doesn't happen and so I listened to this program, and it was

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It took them forever to even get into the subject Why I didn't want to do But didn't get a chance to do was to cue up one element of this

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Because at one point Marcus Grote I was saying well Let's just skip over verses 14 and 15 just jump to 16 7 because that's what

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I did when I was a Presbyterian minister and I couldn't help but sit there and And go yeah, is that what dr.

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Knight does in his extensive scholarly commentary on the pastoral epistles a

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Commentary that that Rome's apologists could never even begin to produce You want deep in Scripture check something like that out

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But no they don't go there When when you do have scholarly Roman Catholic commentaries produced what are they they're always liberal

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They don't produce stuff like dr. Knight produces on the on the the pastoral epistles because they can't or hamstrung

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It's just it was just really I wouldn't invite you to go to his Patrick Madrid blog spot calm see

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I can use his name. I can link to him directly I don't have to do what he does where you know we don't want anybody you know going over there and find out

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There's response to this stuff So who's the audience I I was thinking about as I was listening What audience are they trying to reach with this because they're not trying to reach us

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They're not trying to reach the listeners this program. They're not trying to reach Roman Catholics who are serious and apologetics

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Who's their audience their audience? but the people who give the money must be the people who will never go looking for who

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Patrick debated and Listen to the other side and Isn't that exactly the people we run into in the

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Catholic answers web forums? How many times have we encountered serious in there?

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where no matter what a Catholic says about me or James Swan or or David King or or whoever

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Eric Svensson whoever it might be Whatever is said is automatically believed even though a simple

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Google search would provide you with all the evidence You need to discover. It was a lie a complete falsehood

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Evidently those must be the people who give the money So that's the audience and that's why they don't care about doing research.

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That's why they don't care about being fair and accurate and responding to criticisms with their position and Interacting with with anything that said about that don't need to do that in fact that would be that would be a bad thing to do

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Because that might lead those very same people to discovering that your apologetics is really shallow and Never gets updated and it's it's not growing.

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It's it's it's not alive It's just the same thing repeated over and over and over again Maybe that's why and it was fascinating to me

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In light of the of the disrespect. I mean today's Protestant pop apologists

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I guess I'm a pop apologist now Patrick Madrid can crank out these shallow repetitive books

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He's not taking on barter I mean he's not taking on John Dominic Crossan or Marcus Borg or John Shelby Spong or Shabbir Ali He's not debating these individuals.

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No, no, no, no He's not off at seminary someplace teaching apologetics or Greek or Hebrew. No, no, no, but I'm the pop apologist

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And so it was fascinating that he likewise I think today October 26th is today 26th.

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Let me see here. Yeah, it's myself. So yesterday Yesterday he put up a blog article

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John Henry Newman on what is a gentleman and He says

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Here's here's some of the quotes from what he put up Newman says he makes light of favors while he does them and he seems to be receiving when he is conferring

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He never speaks of himself except when compelled never defends himself by a mere retort He has no ears for for slander or gossip is scrupulous in imputing motives to those who interfere with him and Interprets everything for the best he is never mean or little in his disputes never takes unfair advantage

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Never mistakes personalities of sharp sayings for arguments or insinuates evil which he dare not say out and I'm just like Patrick Physician heal thyself read what you just posted ask yourself.

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That's that what really happened the Council of Nicaea article That you put out an envoy you keep pointing people to Do you really want to try to defend that in light of what

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Newman was saying there? I don't think so But that's evidently just for for somebody else's side.

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Okay We are going through the stack of stuff here before we get to our calls because the calls always take us off in other

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Directions. I wanted to get to a bunch of stuff today from the website called

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Hudson New York org From Paul Beline a Hudson Institute adjunct fellow

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If all goes as planned the 27 member states the European Union will soon have a common hate crime legislation

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Which will turn disapproval for Islamic practices or homosexual lifestyles into crimes now, isn't it fascinating given?

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Islam's viewpoint of homosexuality the two would be going together like this, but Europe's that was

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I stopped my quote there going back to my quote Europe's Christian churches are trying to stop the plan of the European Political establishment, but it is not clear if they will be successful Last April the

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European Parliament approved the European Union's equal treatment directive a directive is the name given to an

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EU law as directives overrule national legislation They need the approval the

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European Council of Ministers before coming to effect next month The council will decide on the directive which places the 27

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EU member states under a common Anti -discrimination legislation the directives definition of discriminatory harassment is so broad that every objection to Muslim or homosexual

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Practices will be considered unlawful on April 2nd The European Parliament passed the directive on implementing the principle of equal treatment between persons irrespective of religion or belief disability age or sexual orientation 363 votes 226 the directive applies to social protection and health care social benefits education access to goods and services including housing

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American citizens and companies doing business in Europe are also required to adhere to it

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I wonder if this is the end of doing debates in the UK it could be Originally intended to serve as an equal treatment directive for the disabled by prohibiting discrimination when accessing goods and services including housing

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Activists European politicians and governments had the directives scope expanded to include discrimination on the basis of religion age and sexual orientation

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Sounds like what our own Congress just did under the directive harassment defined as conduct quote with the purpose or effect of violating the dignity of a person and of creating an intimidating hostile degrading humiliating or Offensive environment and quote is deemed a form of discrimination

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So if I say Muhammad was not a prophet I break the law If the

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Muslim says Jesus is not the Son of God. He doesn't Hello Christian discrimination and persecution

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Harassment as vaguely defined in the directive allows an individual to accuse someone of discrimination merely for expressing something the individual

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Allegedly perceives as creating an offensive environment Remember Islam is the religion of perpetual outrage so Look at look at the

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Muslims standing outside Of Parliament last week when Gert Wilders was speaking there calling for his death

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Saying Islam will triumph democracy and freedom will fall we will rule Evidently, that's okay

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The Definition so broad that anyone who feels intimidated or offended can easily bring legal action Against those whom he feels are responsible moreover the directive shifts the burden of proof on to the accused

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Who has to prove the negative that is demonstrate that he or she did not create an environment which intimidated or offended the complainant?

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If the accused fails to do so he or she can be sentenced to paying an unlimited amount of compensation for harassment remember the individual

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The pastor up in Canada all the money he had to spend to defend himself for having written a letter to an editor

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That said we should not expose kindergartners to pro -homosexual

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Propaganda when providing a service such as a hotel room or selling goods such as books in the

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EU businesses and their employees Will have to provide them or risk being sued irrespective of whether they find themselves

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Facilitating sexual ethics contrary to their religious beliefs or helping promote another religion say the legal experts of the

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British Organization Christian Concern for our nation and the Christian Legal Center organizers of a

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Christian conference for instance Will be legally obliged to make double rooms available to homosexual and unmarried couples as well as to married normally married couples

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The directive is currently being amended by Sweden the president of the European Council in the second half 2009

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With a view to the final vote which will be taken by the council next month activists politicians are attempting to extend Discrimination and harassment in the directive to cover assumptions as well

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Countries where the Catholic Church still has large influence such as Malta and Poland However are raising objections these attempts as the directive needs a unanimous approval by all 27

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EU member states It is not yet certain how far -reaching the final version of the directive is going to be but the fact of matter is folks

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These people will not stop They will not give up if they are defeated once they will come back

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That is simply the way that it is Next thing sack of stuff

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We're covering a lot, but we're about right out of time July 2009 focus on the kingdom

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Anthony buzzard. I was informed by Mr.. Pierce. I didn't get an email on this.

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Did you send me something? Well, you're a hard copy. Okay. All right well So it was

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Dan corner who wrote something for Anthony buzzards newsletter Probably the same newsletter.

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I would imagine you're going to get it. Okay. I'd like to take a look at it now I didn't know Dan corner was an anti -trinitarian because Anthony buzzard is

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And by the way may I mention something I would like to ask those who listen from churches

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The best way to arrange debates is when a third party does the arranging and I would like to encourage a

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Church that would like to maybe do a a seminar or something like that On the subject yeah focus on the kingdom in here, right?

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Dan corner yeah, Anthony buzzard there. It is this is September 2009 So Dan corner is willing to write for anti -trinitarians.

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There you go And and we thought Dan corner was just a wild -eyed Arminian. He's not he's

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What I can see he's got the whole thing there. He's got the whole yeah. Yeah, there you go Hatred of reformed theology creates very strange bedfellows here.

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I thought corner was a trinitarian. Maybe he's become completely radical. I don't know it wouldn't surprise me a whole lot, but But as it may

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I would like to encourage a church that would like to do a seminar On the subject the

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Trinity than deity of Christ to arrange to have a debate between myself and mr. Buzzard Obviously This is a lot of work.

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And so it needs to be a church. It has some some size to it in essence that can bring him in and myself in and Provide a facility where we can do videotaping and things like that.

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It's a lot of work. Believe me. I know but If it is something you would like to see happen,

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I would encourage you to contact us and to contact him That's the best way these things happen

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And I would also like to do something else. I didn't bring it up, but I know that within the past two months

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Robert St. Genes Posted an open challenge to debate Calvinism against me again

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I think via Matthew Belisario that or Matthew Belisario picked it up from St. Genesis website. I don't know.

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I don't follow his stuff. I Know the Roman Catholic apologists do not want anybody to be doing anything with Roberts and Janice They they want there to be a clean break there, etc, etc.

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Fine I still think that if someone would like to See a debate where at least a man -centered position on these subjects is being debated

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We can't you know, how many times we tried to get the people with the biggest mouths Who criticize reform theology to do something in this area?

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But they just won't do it But again, if we could find a location church that would be willing to host a debate like that and to assist with a debate like that then

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Let's do it. Let's let's contact us. Let us know that you'd be willing to do that I can think of one maybe over in Santa Fe possibly

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I might have to contact my friends over there because they want to do a debate Relevant to Roman Catholicism and it would be a perfect subject.

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So maybe maybe maybe something like that would work out But I would I would like to do that So we're gonna go ahead and we need to take our break and I when

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I come back. I will read this from Anthony buzzard and then we'll go to our phone calls here on the dividing line.

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Keep moving at high speed. We'll be right back Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations

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Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate

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The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

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Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

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Hello everyone, this is rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you. Oh Yeah, I better mention

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Saw an email my Muslim friends are licking their chops on this one that surveyed us the evangelical

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Who evidently from what's our inside sources say is local?

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Yes, Scottsdale Scottsdale, Arizona seemingly is the location of survey to see evangelical is has had has been forced to move up his reveal date

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To November 19th next month, so There you go

35:14

Fascinating stuff. I like I said if you look at his book, this is Standard old liberalism been around for a long long time.

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But hey if you want to make a splash You got to be an apostate. So that's how you do it.

35:26

Anyway real quickly here. I Was back in July of 2009 Anthony buzzard in the same newsletter

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We were just talking about focus on the kingdom attempted to respond to some of the things I have written in the

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Forgotten Trinity and Here you have let me just read you an example of unintelligibility

35:45

Despite noble struggle to which Durant refers one may consult James White's forgotten Trinity Trinitarians will sometimes say the

35:51

Trinity cannot be comprehended. And so unintelligibility is to be expected Now remember buzzard is a

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Unitarian. He denies the deity of Christ So Here's here's a

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Unitarian speaking Dr. White is honest when he admits that our language is somehow inadequate to define how many how many and who

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God is God is said to be one being existing as three co -equal and co -eternal persons White admits to his own struggle quote

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We struggle to express ourselves clearly here for how does one describe the being of God and quote?

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Well, actually he's quoting from first from page 26 and page 169 There was a little something in between called all the biblical evidence of the deity of Christ and things like that that buzzard doesn't believe in But what

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I was talking about, of course was the use of human language Which is always based upon similitude and examples and similarities

36:43

When we're talking about the unique being of God, that's where language begins to break down The problem is that white offers two non compatible

36:55

Definitions Oh, there's a survey as evangelical has responded to me.

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I didn't know that Let's say okay, what is the what's the date on this?

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September 15 2009 I'm stopping mid -sentence

37:18

Breaking news project just come across the desk here I feel like I'm on Fox News, but I can't be on Fox News because that's not a news organization from what we've been told by high authority

37:30

Let me see in that James White rhetorical blog about me in my book. He foolishly speaks without knowledge in his first post five times

37:37

He calls me an apostate because he correctly says that I don't believe the Bible teaches the institutional church doctrine the Trinity and thus the

37:42

Jesus God what I do believe Well, wait a minute timeout doesn't that make you an apostate if you once professed

37:50

X and you now deny X apostate is a technical term if I had once been a

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Jehovah's Witness and now believe what I believe now a Jehovah's Witness would refer to me as what an

38:04

Apostate because I once made a profession X that I now deny So if this guy wants to be known as a former

38:12

Trinitarian Then and he now denies that then that makes him what?

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an apostate Okay, what I do believe is that Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead and I have made him

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Lord of my Life for more years and mr. White has For more years of mr. White has so that would how does he know that?

38:32

So that would make this an elderly fellow. He'd have to be elderly Because I've known the

38:39

Lord for working on well in the fifth decade so All right

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According to Paul Romans 10 9 through 10 that makes me a believer in Jesus and that's a saved person This is the kind of argument you're getting folks.

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This is not this this is not high -end stuff This is a guy who's who's really not interacting very well with you know, the historical

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Realities here of What Christianity has been and where it has stood in?

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Regards to the deity of Christ biblically an apostate is someone who has fallen away from the Christian faith Yes, sir, by denying the deity of Christ.

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That's what you've done, which I certainly have not done So mr. White doesn't know what an apostate is. No, sir now you see you see how bad this argumentation is a

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Serious scholar would say I Disagree that the

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Trinity is definitional of the Christian faith But I certainly recognize that from the historic

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Christian perspective. I would be an apostate Notice how he has twisted this

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Into an assertion that I don't know what apostate is. I know exactly what the term means and So he's turned it into an accusation against me when it's when it's not even a meaningful argument

39:53

This this is gonna start giving you more of an eye more an idea of just how poor this man's argumentation really is

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And I think once the identity is known we're gonna we're gonna see why This kind of twisted thinking it is there and James why a second post about me in my book

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He accused me of reliance on sub -biblical scholarship. I'll put my bibliography up against anything. He's published and I haven't even seen his stuff

40:16

I'm just reading this on the fly. I'll put my stuff He gives me a sub -biblical attacks, but I understand to me non -biblical arguments

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My book is mostly about exegesis a certain biblical text very poor exegesis based again upon liberal theology

40:32

That's why I identified as sub -biblical Mr. White wrongly accused of me of being Aryan Christology I make it clear throughout my book that I'm not so Aries believe

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Jesus is God But to a lesser extent than the Father is God and the G is pre -existed but not eternally So in contrast,

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I believe as did the early Jewish Nazarene Christians that Jesus is all the church has proclaimed of him Except that he is not all

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God This is this is this is not even meaningful language. I mean,

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I really This has given some good indication of just how shallow this stuff is and it makes sense

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Given the guys been playing games of this on his website for so long this bogus allegation My wife's an example, but professor

41:11

James Tabor Bart Ehrman's colleague Who did read my book says about me and his blog?

41:16

My guess is his critics have not bothered to examine his arguments I remember Tabor folks was one of the big pushers of the

41:22

Jesus tomb Okay, this gives you an idea He's the one who's pushing that Jesus was the the son of a

41:30

Roman soldier Stuff and all this wacko leftist nutcase stuff out on the fringe and that's where this guy's coming from All right.

41:38

So now we're starting to see a stuff. Thank you very much turrets and fan for Posting that in channel

41:46

White who is no lily white professor who is no lily white professor Also describes my book as being spiral bound he doesn't know what that is either it's wire

41:58

Oh bound Many people in publishing and business think wire

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Oh is superior to conventional bookbinding Regardless, I will soon Trump this remark by mr.

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White with a new and innovative format for my book Just as I will later thump him if he accepts my challenge to publicly debate whether Jesus God.

42:17

There you go folks Wow I I thank you very much. I did not know that was there

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That's what's so wonderful about the chat channel is it is my source of information. It gives me the clues of what's out there four paragraphs of utterly

42:34

Uninspiring thought from surveyed us the Amazing of course

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Arianism is used for a wide variety of Theological perspectives that deny the duty of Christ, which is what he is doing and I'm sorry, but the the binding on the book is

42:56

Looks very self -published. I mean, that's that's what it is. That's that's that's that's where it came from You know, he may do something cooler in the future big deal

43:05

But the fact the matter is his argumentation is old. It's based upon liberal sources. It is inconsistent and It's been refuted for a long long time.

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There's nothing new here. I Him Nelson Hurley did a far better job than than this guy has so He's look folks

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This is the guy who is playing games with his identity and if it is discovered that he has been teaching someplace

43:35

But has not had the guts the integrity the honesty to be up front with his change in position

43:41

He's continued teaching to simply to continue making money or whatever That's what it is. I have no respect for him the first place So I don't

43:46

I'm not overly shocked that he would be rather dismissive in his responses But that's fine.

43:51

Thank you very much for that link That was that's fascinating. I will have to keep that and we'll have to note something about that in the blog

43:59

Sorry callers. I'll get to you in a second But I've now started reading this I can't stop and this is a live program and anyway

44:09

Back to Anthony buzzard another person denying the deity of Christ So the problem is that white offers two non -compatible definitions

44:17

God he says is one being then he says Then he speaks of the being of God God's being his essence, which is a quality of God No, I never said as a quality of God.

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There's no quotation marks around that Obviously Unitarians and mr.

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Buzzard Want to attempt as best they can to confuse and confound the distinction between the being of God and the persons of God We recognize the difference between being in person we recognize it every single day

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But their only way to get around that and to avoid having to admit that an infinite being could be shared by three divine persons

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Without dividing that being up into parts is to try to in essence do what the

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Jehovah's Witnesses do and that is introduce Confusion and things like that white says that the God of the Bible is one what not a who?

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Do here's the Bible really find in its pages a being who is a what and not a who well, mr

45:09

Buzzard to the people who read the Bible also find Jesus Christ as God as the creator as eternal and timeless

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Yes, they do. Do they see him being identified as Yahweh? Well, yes, they do, but you don't admit those things

45:22

You don't believe those things and in fact you then misrepresent psalm 110 1 And tell people see this clearly says

45:28

Jesus isn't God because of the Masoretic vowel point of the Hebrew which came about 900 years after the time of Jesus Yes, that is by the way, if you're wondering who's this anti buzzer guy,

45:37

I've played segments of him before when he was debating Shabbir Ali That's where you remember that and I've done stuff in the past of blog articles things like that in regards to the

45:47

Hebrews Or the psalm 110 thing and things like that. That's where Anthony buzzer is coming from Does the masculine pronoun he used of God over and over again scripture mean that God is a what

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And notice that notice what he's doing here He's refusing to allow us to discuss

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Issues raised by scripture itself. Yes. God speaks as a person since since he is personal

46:10

God is personal the father speaks the son speaks the spirit speaks and God often speaks simply as A person just as as one that's fine.

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No problem Every time God speaks there's not always a distinction between the father son the spirit, but the scriptures

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Introduce these distinctions to us. You can't simply take those singular pronouns and say oh must be a

46:34

Unitarian When the Bible then clearly identifies individuals who are distinguished from one another and he recognizes that the son is distinguished from the father and Describes him as fully

46:44

God. That's where the problem is for the Unitarian The problem is that white use language in a way quite foreign to the

46:53

Bible's much easier description of the identity of God Yeah, it's really easy when you would just ignore what the rest of the Bible says Can you explain the basis of the

46:59

Bible or your own use of words a difference between person and being? Later white tells us don't think of begotten in human terms

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But in divine terms page 172 But the Bible does not say it begotten does not mean begotten and that someone begotten has no beginning

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This would be equivalent to saying don't think of black as black but as yellow you see a whole vocabulary of non -language has to be

47:17

Imported before one can discuss these abstruse issues about who God and Jesus are and again

47:22

Here's here's and here's an individual who is closing his eyes to the clear evidence the deity of Christ and Taking only a part then of the divine revelation

47:32

And then when you attempt to harmonize the entirety of divine revelation, and he only allows you to have a part

47:37

Oh, you can't use terms like that or you can't address that issue That's that's how you get around this kind of things.

47:43

He says dr. White ends in contradiction He tries to convince Joe was witnesses the Trinity so I press on I assume you agree with me that there is only one true

47:50

God Yahweh, I believe the name Yahweh refers to the very divine being the eternal God who created everything note that whites one

47:57

What is now a who know? Yahweh is always used as the name of God and that one name is used of three persons father son

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Holy Spirit See they can't even accurately represent what you're writing your book

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They have to try to turn it into a mishmash of self -contradiction when it is quite consistent with itself so anyway

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There you go. I would love to get Anthony buzzard in in debate to deal with that those issues at least we know who he is

48:27

Once surveyed us the evangelical Reveals his identity we will be able to determine where this individual is just someone who's been playing games and has no serious background

48:37

No, no serious reason to even be taken Seriously or not, but we only have but a few weeks to find out and once again obviously

48:47

James Tabor knows Individual is there other I've been told liberals in the evangelical movement who know who he is too

48:53

And I say shame on every single one of you now James Tabor isn't a Christians that doesn't matter But if you claim to be a

48:59

Christian you believe in the deity of Christ, and you have hidden this man's identity shame on You I hope it comes out

49:06

And I hope that there is appropriate response from the believing community Because that's just the way it should be shame on you

49:15

I had one other thing the stack of stuff, but I didn't expect these surveyed of things So let's quick get to our phone calls don't have a lot of time, so I'll have to be pretty fast

49:21

Let's talk with Kerry in Texas hi Kerry all right James Question I've listened to a number of your debates defending the doctrines of grace

49:31

And I haven't ever heard you make this argument that may not be a good argument, but a number of people say well

49:39

What about all the warning passages falling from grace etc would an appropriate response be?

49:45

This is the means by which the Holy Spirit preserves Christians who would be familiar with the warnings and hence would

49:52

Through the power of the Holy Spirit take them seriously. I've said that many times in fact as I have taught through Hebrews I'm in chapter 4 on on Sunday mornings

50:06

And Sunday evenings at the Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church As and that when I have addressed that subject like with Jerry Medetic so many many years ago

50:15

One of the assertions that I made is that the warning passages and in fact in in the debating Calvinism with Dave Hunt as well

50:20

The warning passages are one of the means that God uses to preserve the elect means of grace that are used

50:30

To cause the the elect to be serious about their faith so on and so forth and Yeah, I've made that statement many times.

50:38

Yeah, okay good well with that in mind this past Sunday I happened into a

50:44

Sunday school class where one of the I guess respected individuals in our church is just slamming the doctrines of grace, and I'd really like to To challenge him to a formal debate is there a recommended format and or a topic wording to?

51:02

Accomplish those based on your experience well it all depends on on What you mean by a formal debate if you're going to?

51:11

The the the format you're going to use is going to be dependent upon the time frame you have Obviously the opportunity for interaction being able to focus the

51:22

The thesis on a particular aspect. It's very difficult to just do a general debate on the doctrines of grace

51:30

Because there's so many things need to address need to address the sovereignty of God the The nature of man the nature of the atonement the nature of election

51:39

There's it really lends itself either to a much longer debate or to a series of debates on particular topics

51:46

That are relevant to it because for example it's really difficult to address the perseverance of the

51:52

Saints if you're not allowed to first address the sovereignty of God and and The perfection of the atonement things like that, that's why

52:00

Dan corner for example says I won't debate him well the reality is he wanted me to sign a contract saying that I wouldn't mention any of the other points of the doctrines of grace

52:10

One I mean that's that's that's clear rationality. It's it's absurdity, but that's that's that that's just where Dan corner is but So you really?

52:20

Might want to do you know a series of them where you can you know build the foundation and things like that So it really depends on what kind of context you're talking about if you're talking about in the

52:29

Sunday school class You know that's obviously much shorter. It has to be much more focused than if you have multiple hours

52:35

To know I'm talking about multiple hours like you know two or three or four hours even yeah, well

52:42

Again, I think even in that if you're gonna do a lengthy debate You would want to break it up into segments so you can deal with the foundational issues

52:50

With God's sovereignty over his creation, that's absolutely foundational without it you can't get anyplace else, then you've got to deal with the nature of man is sin and then probably either you know just the doctrine of election itself or The atonement of Christ something along those lines, but that's what you that's what you'd need to do there, okay?

53:08

And just for what it's worth. I mean hearing the Advertisement from Ergin Cantor in my opinion.

53:15

He's just a liar and a fraud. There's just no other way to part Word what advertisement are you referring to oh all of his debates that he's done

53:25

Yeah, I mean, it's just advertising PR, and it's a lie It is it is an amazing thing to me that the

53:34

Liberty University allows claims to be made that simply can't be backed up and I Sadly I've been now contacted by Muslims who know this and it very badly reflects upon those of us

53:47

Seeking to give a proper testimony to the faith to the Muslims, so I I'm very disturbed by that, but so thanks for your call

53:54

Okay, okay. Thank you all right. God bless. Let's real quick. Go to Kyle. Hi Kyle Sorry it was long time, but it's a live webcast.

54:04

We've got it. We've got to stay right on top of things while we're on the air Hey, I'm a college student and taking a class this semester on history of the

54:13

Reformation inside the classroom just kind of doing it for fun and inside the classroom the professor on the issue of biblical inerrancy came up and The professor challenged my position on biblical inerrancy and he cited

54:25

He said at one point during Paul letters He didn't give me any reference or anything one point during Paul's letters Paul shared his opinion instead of God's revelation

54:32

And so we can expect to see that throughout scripture, and so of course that's first Corinthians 7 and Paul's addressing marriage there and and And so in in verse 25 he talks about how he's not received a claim of the

54:43

Lord in verse 40 You know similar similar type of thing and so I guess

54:49

I'm wondering first of all how you approach that and And the secondly hopefully this isn't taking too long here, but secondly he he talked about how eternal life and salvation shows up suspiciously late in the

55:03

Old Testament and how You know Jews in the Old Testament would have had their ideas of eternal life largely

55:10

You know reflected from from Babylon and Persian and Zoroastrianism Right sure sure so sounds like your professor is a good faithful reader of Bart Ehrman and the radical leftists and Again, this is why we need to address these things first of all

55:26

In regards to Paul's statement now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord by given opinion as one who by the mercy of the

55:31

Lord is trustworthy What he's saying is he has nothing in the tradition from Jesus in regards to Jesus teaching on this particular subject earlier

55:38

He had specifically talked about the commandment of the Lord, and it's it's something we find in the Gospels But this is a subject that we do not find the

55:45

Gospels any commandment from Christ, and that's what he's talking about So that idea that well you know this this means that he's just giving his personal opinion

55:52

That's the the perspective of a apostle who is writing to the church Ordering the church's beliefs and the church's practices and so The idea that somehow that indicates a lesser level of inspiration or something like that Is a huge leap that Christians have never made and there's no reason to make it in Regards to what

56:12

Paul said because he's simply distinguishing between when he's drawing from the tradition of Jesus teachings in the

56:18

Gospels Which at that time hadn't even been written yet Paul's Paul's before that And the fact that he recognizes he's addressing a subject that Jesus himself did not address in the tradition that the church has so that is as hardly an argument against inerrancy, but Would you say for verse 40?

56:36

I'm sorry What would you say for verse 40 when he says and I think to that I have the Spirit of God in other words I they just almost displaying uncertainty and again.

56:44

I believe in errancy, but When he's when he's shooting these arguments at me. I'm you know how to respond to something like that well

56:51

Notice what it was is I think to yet in my judgment and when he talks about the fact that he

56:58

The term is a docket. Oh, which means To consider is his point is that he is in fact.

57:05

This is exact opposite of their their application That this isn't some kind of oh well. You know maybe you might want to listen what

57:12

I'm talking about remember the Corinthian Correspondence includes a great deal of defense of Paul's apostleship against the false apostles and so there's a

57:24

Even calls them super apostles well obviously there's some some sarcasm there, and there's there's some here as well

57:31

That is here is the one who? Was the means by which the Word of God was delivered to these people through whom they heard the gospel and so when he's giving

57:39

Directions, and he says and and I I dot ko that I have the Spirit of God That's that's sort of a given.

57:47

I mean it's sort of like a dust statement that should communicate rather clearly and yet, it's it's interesting only the crazy leftists and my

57:57

Muslim friends Who have something really out against Paul? Would would come around to say something like that very quickly as far as the progressive revelation of the

58:07

Old Testament Again it's progressive it takes time it is there are basic things revealed the beginning and Further things revealed through the course of the revelation amongst

58:19

God's people so the idea that Everything has to be as clear at the beginning as it is at the end Denies a very fundamental aspect of what we view that revelation to be in the first place

58:28

So the idea that well you know they got that from the Zoroastrians or something like that simple thing could you prove that for us?

58:35

Please could you give us some documentation? Could you explain? Why Jews who hate pagan religions would do things like that?

58:40

Unfortunately that music says I'm completely out of time, but I did address some of that with Dan Barker in the debate Take a look at that. Thanks for your call today.

58:46

Thanks for listening to the buying line. We'll see you next time. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 4602 or write us at PO box 3 7 1 0 6

59:40

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59:46

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks