Mormon Couple Cuts Off Conversation

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How did you guys come to the LDS church? Like, how did that happen? My dad was a member. Oh, okay.

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Gotcha. So I got baptized into the church. Born in Utah? No, Nigeria. Nigeria. Was he a member in Nigeria?

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Yes, he was. Wow. Yeah, I know. Okay, okay. What about you, man? I got to,

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I'm a convert. I converted here. Oh, you guys are married? Yeah. When did you get married? Awesome, guys.

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Well, congratulations for that. Yeah, thank you. My name's Andrew, by the way. What's your name? Judith? Cool. Tony. Tony? Yeah.

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Awesome, awesome. Well, I'm an evangelical Christian, and we're out here because we like to preach the gospel to our LDS neighbors. Uh -huh.

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Because we care about you guys, right? Right. So, have you ever tested the words of, like, Joseph Smith to scripture?

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Like, the Bible? Yeah. The Old and New Testament? Yeah? Yeah. What have you found? Have you found anything interesting?

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About Joseph Smith in the Bible? About Jesus. Let's talk about Jesus, then. Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah? Uh -huh.

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Like, what exactly would be interesting or similar between what Joseph taught about Jesus and what it's talked about about Jesus in scripture?

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I think the similarity is just making us understand that Jesus Christ is our

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Savior. He's our begotten Son of our Heavenly Father. He died for us.

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He came to the earth to atone for our sins, so as to reconnect us back to our Heavenly Father. Like, this is true.

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Yeah, and talk to the gospel that will inherit everlasting life and regain celestial glory.

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Gotcha. Yeah, so those are all words that sound similar to me as a Christian, right? Like, eternal life, Jesus Christ.

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He died on the cross for me. But my issue that I would have is who is

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Jesus, right? Like, what does the scriptures actually teach about the deity of Jesus? Because Jesus even asked his disciples.

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He says, who do you say that I am? Right, very important. And like, one example about what the scriptures say about Jesus, it says, in John chapter one, verse one, it says, in the beginning was the

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Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It says, all things were created through him, right?

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There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through Jesus. And then in Colossians chapter one, it says that Jesus created all things on heaven and on earth, meaning he created

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Lucifer, right? Not the spirit brother of Lucifer. Does the LDS doctrine teach that he's not the creator of Lucifer, though, that he's actually the spirit brother of Lucifer, right?

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The offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother, right? Like you said, elder brother. Doesn't the

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LDS church teach that he's your brother in that sense, that you guys had a premortal existence?

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Yes. So in that sense, I believe that contradicts what scripture says, because scripture says he created all things in heaven and on earth, right?

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That's not my opinion. That's just what it says in Colossians chapter 116. And we also believe in that.

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We believe he created all things under the direction of heavenly father. Under, no, no, but it says in heaven and on earth.

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It says he created all things visible and invisible, meaning that he created Lucifer. But LDS doctrine doesn't teach that.

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It says that he's the offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother, the brother of Lucifer. You see what

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I'm saying? Yeah. That's what we believe. We believe that we are all children of God and that Jesus Christ is our brother.

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Right. So if scripture teaches in John chapter one, the opposite and in Colossians, why would you believe

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Joseph over the Bible? Do you see what I'm saying? That wasn't Joseph. That wasn't

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Joseph. But we got a revelation, he's a prophet, right? Yeah, he's a prophet and he got a revelation. We do not believe in Joseph more than the

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Bible. More than the scriptures. More than the scriptures, yeah, sorry. Yeah, so that wasn't Joseph. So, whatever it is

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I would believe is strictly, what heavenly father taught. And just like different prophets like kind of like come out and like tell you,

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I have revelations, I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Joseph had his own revelations too. You understand?

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And from his own revelations, things he said had correlation with the

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Bible which are related are things that are true and we believe in it. Yeah, yeah. So how do you know it's true is the question.

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You said very, you said something good. How do I know it's true? Yeah. Yeah, because it's just like how my spirit tends to like, when

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I, because even the Bible said we should test all words. Yes. Yeah, to confirm if they are true or not.

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And so each time I read scriptures and I have that quiet moment where I'm meditating and I find peace and it confirms peace to my heart.

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Then it confirms to me that those words are true. Gotcha, what if the Bible says, when it says test the spirits, right?

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What if the test of the spirit isn't your feelings, right? Because so many people can go, hey, you know what?

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For example, I can say, I feel like I'm a woman. You know what? I prayed about it and heavenly father revealed to me that I'm actually a woman and I know it to be true.

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How do you have a response to that if it's just your feelings? Because now the good thing is there is this scripture that says we should search the scripture because in it there is life and in the same scripture it teaches us the way of life also, you understand?

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So for me, whenever I'm having conflict in thought, I always search the scriptures. And when I search the scriptures - Do you go to the scriptures?

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Yeah, and it always leads me to the answers. And heavenly father somehow kind of like know our thoughts.

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Whenever he noticed we were worried, he always point us to the right scriptures. And when we read those scriptures, I find peace in our heart. Okay. Yeah, which is -

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Gotcha, so you would say that over your feelings then, that scripture is supreme objective standard of truth.

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The Holy Bible is over your feelings. Right. Okay, so the question again then would be, if the

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Bible teaches that Jesus Christ created all things, that he's uncreated, that he's not the offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother, but that he's always been

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God, why don't you believe that? So I will believe that Jesus Christ created all things.

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Jesus Christ is a member of the Godhead. Because I want to believe he's in Philippians, I can't remember right now, that said, even though he is

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God, but he still humble himself. Philippians chapter two. Okay, he still humble himself. So we believe

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Jesus Christ is God. And we also recognize him as a brother, as a first offspring of our heavenly father.

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Right, see that's where the contradiction is though. Because in Philippians chapter two, it says, even though he existed eternally in the form of God, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

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Therefore, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, and he was obedient to the father, right?

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Even to the point of death, death on a cross. Therefore, he was highly exalted, that under his name, that every knee shall bow and tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is

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Lord. Yeah, sure, and shall we confess him as Lord? Right, but the issue would be though, is this is the words of your prophet.

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He says, you have imagined and supposed that God has been God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see, you have got to learn to become

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God. That's Joseph Smith in the King Follett Discourse. We can all become God's that we pray to God.

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Gotcha, yeah, I love your honesty. So here's another issue that scripture brings out. Isaiah 43, 10, it says, before me, there was no

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God formed. Neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 44, six, I am the first,

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I am the last. Beside me, there is no God. You can read Isaiah chapter 40 through 45. It's everywhere.

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And I think if you expound that better, it's more like telling us that before him, we should not see anyone as God before him.

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Well, it clearly says, before me, no God was formed. Neither shall there be after me.

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It doesn't say that. What's actually occurring right now is you're reading the Bible through the lens of the

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Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. You're not reading the Bible for what it says. We're reading the

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Bible for what it says. We don't add to the Bible, we don't take from the Bible. We also believe that the Bible was translated from Egyptian languages to the

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English languages. We've seen instances where there are some translations or some things in the

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Bible that does not really confirm. Okay, let's talk like normal, like when

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Jesus Christ was going to the mountain to pray and he said he was taken to the mountain by the devil. The devil doesn't have the power to take

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Jesus Christ because he doesn't have that power. So we believe that even though we study the

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Bible, we know that there are some plain and precious things that have been removed from the Bible and there are some things that have also been lost as a result of translation.

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If I am translating like English to my local dialect or my dialect to English, some things are definitely gonna be lost and we believe that.

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Gotcha. Well, we don't have so much time. We're gonna be leaving now. Thank you so much for giving time to talk.

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Before you guys go, can I present you with the evangelical Christian gospel? Yes, sure. Perfect, okay.

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Jesus Christ is eternally God, uncreated, not the heavenly offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother.

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He is God from all eternity into eternity who took on flesh and died on the cross for our sins.

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I am not a son of God. You are using one word, eternal father and eternal mother.

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I think the word is heavenly father but there's no heavenly mother. There's no heavenly mother? Yeah, heavenly father.

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There's no heavenly mother? Yeah. He came to be a true mortal mother but in heavenly existence, he's true heavenly father.

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So there's no pre -existence of Jesus in the pre -mortal existence? Yeah, he's a pre -existence of Jesus Christ but he never talked about heavenly mother.

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He just talked about the premortal life. Right, in the premortal life though, he is the offspring of heavenly father and heavenly mother.

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There was no mention of heavenly mother. He just talked about - He just appeared? He just talked about we were all premortal children of our heavenly father.

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Okay. There was no mention of - Do you believe that we existed before we came to the earth? Absolutely not.

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Isaiah 45 actually says that God created earth and then man upon it and breathed the breath of life into him.

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And do you believe that after we leave this earth, we're going somewhere? Yes, I will be judged. It says in Hebrews, it says first comes death and then comes the judgment.

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Yeah, it does not say that there's any second chances. It says I will stand before God and I'll have to give an account for my sins, right?

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I'm gonna stand before a holy, just, righteous, thrice holy and great good

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God. And one sin in my life condemns me to hell for all eternity. And the only being that can take the wrath of the eternal

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God is the eternal God himself, Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for my sins. By, listen, by faith in Jesus Christ and Christ alone,

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I will stand before the father justified, which means declared righteous, not by my works, but purely by the work of Christ.

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And I don't stand before God trying to offer him any of the things that I've done. And faith without works is dead and alone. You still have to work, right?

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Oh, absolutely. What I would say though, when James is talking about faith without works is dead, he's not talking to how you're justified before God.

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He's talking about a working of your salvation before others in the context of James, a working faith is alive.

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It's not dead, but it does not mean that my works make me righteous. That's an error.

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But the LDS church does teach that you have to be obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles in order to reach the highest level of exaltation.

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Yes, sure. The Bible denies that. So what do you need to be exalted to be able to stand before the judgment of God?

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Amen, yes. Great question, I love it. Belief in Jesus Christ, that he is my savior, that there's nothing that I could have done to achieve the righteousness that he gave me.

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So on the cross, he took my sins upon his body, right? And then when I believe in him, his righteousness is then accredited to me.

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Do you believe in baptism? Oh, absolutely. I don't have to be baptized to be saved, though. So are you saying you don't need to be righteous, you don't need to live a holy life, you don't need to do good stuff that...

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Just by Jesus Christ. Just by believing in Jesus Christ. Great question. Is that what you're saying? I love the way that you're thinking.

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So the Bible actually condemns that. That's called antinomianism. It's called cheap grace. That's not actually what the

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Bible teaches. Again, in James, I did say a real faith is a living faith. But it's not a faith that earns my righteousness.

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My righteousness is given to me already through the work of Jesus Christ. In Galatians, it says if you're trying to work your salvation, it says the death of Christ has no effect on you.

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Because you would rather stand before God and present him your righteousness instead of relying on his righteousness alone.

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I think you haven't really answered my question. What do you need to do to stand before God to present yourself with righteousness?

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Oh, I'm clothed in the righteous robes of Christ. Faith in Christ. That's it. What does faith entail to you?

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What is faith to you? Yeah, faith to me is a gift from God. It says it in Ephesians chapter two that faith is a gift from God.

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It's belief that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who died on the cross for my sins and that I am a sinner in need of God and his righteousness and his righteousness alone.

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Why are you on earth? Why were you placed on earth? Why were we created? Yes, to glorify

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God and to enjoy him forever, not to become a God and be glorified. What do we need to do to glorify?

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What do you need to do? Yes. Perfect. It says we need to be able to worship him in spirit and in truth, right?

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But in the garden, right, sin entered into the world, right, through Adam and Eve.

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She took of the fruit. So you believe there is sin, right? Absolutely. Original sin. I'm a born a sinner. It says we are conceived in iniquity in Ephesians chapter two.

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So do you believe that you can sin during your existence on this earth? Huh? Do you believe that you can commit sin while you're existing on this earth?

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I believe every single person does. It says in the Bible, if you say you are without sin, then the truth is not in you. Exactly. So how do you put yourself of these sins in order for you to be with God or stand justified before God?

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Great. I didn't do it. That's the thing. The gospel is that Jesus took my sins upon himself on the cross.

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He took upon himself on the cross. So you're saying that you don't need to work on this earth. You don't need to work. You don't need to be righteous.

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You just need to lead your life. So I'm kind of concerned. That's not what I said. I said a real faith that believes in God gives you a heart change.

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It says in Ezekiel that God takes our hearts of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh and causes us to observe his statute.

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So all glory goes to God because it's a work of God and a work of God alone. So observing Jesus' statute, observing Jesus' status, so what do we do now to observe the status?

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What was that? What do we do to observe Jesus' status? I love him and I love his law. Right. But it doesn't mean that the law makes me holy.

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And Galatians, have you guys ever read the book of Galatians? Yeah sure, I read Galatians. Right. So what was going on in the church in Galatia at that time is

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Paul is condemning people that were Judaizers, right? These people were saying that no, you don't have to just believe in Jesus It says no you actually need to be circumcised first and Paul says no

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No, he was if you if you follow the gospel of Paul I think Paul was more of condemning not really condemning but try to like point people to more of the grace of Christ Than them looking at the old laws of Moses.

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Yeah, man Yes, and well, so so but in what in looking at Christ there are there are there are there are there

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Let's go to the temple Where Christ now say, okay Right to just to fulfill it to fulfill it

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Yeah And now you know, you know, I broke the law of Moses into two commandments the law for God and the law for neighbors

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Yep, you know son, so In a way if you look at the Ten Commandments as a guy It's more like things you need to do to start justified before before God.

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No never Never never never the law shows us our need for a Savior. No one is ever perfect or justified by the law

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It says in Galatians It says in Galatians But in living our life to live righteously to stand before to be able to stand before God we need to obey his commandments

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We need to believe in Jesus Christ We need to we we we need to to restitute for our sins

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Understand what I mean? Like like when you need to pay for your own sins Yeah, yeah, yeah, so these are part of the things these are part of the works that you do in line with faith in Christ Jesus But to be able to stand before him but not just hiding in Jesus' grace.

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Okay, he has atoned for my sin. Voila! But that's not what the Bible says though Okay, but I feel like that's what you're saying because I've been asking like what do

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I need to do on this edge? You're saying like, do you think justified by the law? Worship him how?

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Worship him how? Worship him how? No, you're misunderstanding me. I said a real faith is a living faith

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One that does act But it doesn't make me justified before God Again, Paul says if you look to be justified by the works of the law the death of Christ has no effect on you

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Yes, 2nd Corinthians 11 verse 4. It tells us that there's people who will come They will preach a different Jesus a different gospel who have accepted a different spirit

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So my worry for you guys according to the Bible according to who Jesus is in God's Word You have been presented with a

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Jesus that is contrary to the Jesus that you don't worry can be saved with I worry about you because I care about you

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Don't worry about us That won't justify you