John Calvin's Labyrinth

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white Hey, that's a Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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Did we just put that in there? That's been there for a while, huh? In fact, how long ago did you make that thing? That was like a bazillion years ago.

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I think was like 2001 2002 Maybe so every dividing line starts off with a mention of the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church Phoenix Reformed Okay, just as a check -in.

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I was a checker. Yeah reform Baptist. So I was I was a wacky Baptist eight years ago Actually, I was 20 years ago

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All right, hey welcome to the dividing line some of you've read the blog know what I'm talking about I still

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I gotta admit I just cannot conceive how anybody Can claim to and and and we've verified has my books wherein at the beginning of the books it talks about the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church and My debates or and I talk about being a reformed

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Baptist and listens to the vying line Which begins the discussion of my being a reformed Baptist and then go?

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Hey, he's in danger of becoming a reformed Baptist Which I did 20 years ago

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Okay. Well, hey It makes There there you go. I died. I just some things leave me completely befuddled and I don't even begin to understand them

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So that's okay. I don't claim to have all knowledge or be able to figure out all mysteries Speaking of which

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I want to start off the program today with I think a rather important discussion and I think it's a needed corrective

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For many of us. I know it's something I need to think of fairly frequently. I Would like to begin by reading you some some material.

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I know it's not normally the most exciting thing to do But if you listen, I think you might find it to be useful

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Suppose we ponder how slippery is the fall of the human mind into forgetfulness of God?

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How great the tendency of every kind of error how great the lust to fashion constantly new and artificial religions?

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Then we may perceive how Necessary was such written proof of the heavenly doctrine that it should neither perish through forgetfulness nor vanish through error nor be corrupted by the audacity of men

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It is therefore clear that God has provided the assistance of the word for the sake of all those To whom he has been pleased to give useful instruction

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Because he foresaw that his likeness imprinted upon the most beautiful form of the universe would be insufficiently effective

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Hence we must strive onward by this straight path if we seriously aspire to the pure contemplation of God We must come

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I say to the word where God is truly and vividly described to us from his works while these very works are appraised not by our depraved judgment, but by the rule of eternal truth if We turn aside from the word as I have just now said though We may strive with strenuous haste yet since we have got off the track.

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We shall never reach the goal For we should so reason that the splendor of the divine countenance which even the

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Apostle calls Unapproachable is for us like an inexplicable labyrinth Unless we are conducted into it by the thread of the word

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So that it is better to limp along this path than to dash with all speed outside it

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David very often therefore teaching that we ought to banish superstitions from the earth so that pure religion may flourish represented

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God is regnant Now he means by the word regnant not the power with which he is endowed and which he exercises in governing the whole of nature but the doctrine by which he asserts his lawful sovereignty for errors can never be uprooted from human hearts until true knowledge of God is planted therein

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Now I want to focus on this particular line For we should so reason that the splendor the divine countenance which even the

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Apostle calls unapproachable is For us like an inexplicable labyrinth unless We are conducted into it by the thread of the word.

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I love that picture the picture of a person going into a labyrinth a massive maze a

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Maze out of which you will not come unless you have some kind of guidance that will constantly frustrate you

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But if you have that thread to follow if you have that guidance to follow

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Then you can make your way into the labyrinth this of course I'm reading from the Institute's the

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Christian religion by John Calvin and of course it is 2009 and he was born in 1509 the 500th anniversary of the birth of John Calvin and And very early on in the

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Institute's this is book 1 chapter 6 section 3 if you're looking for it He introduces a concept that I think for many in the modern world is somewhat difficult and possibly even offensive and What I mean by that is

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Cal one of the main differences in my thinking between John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards Was that Calvin repeatedly emphasized the fact that when

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God has made an end of speaking so should we that the word functions as a as a guide and the light and when we reach the extent of That word when we reach the extent of that revelation that is where we should stop

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We should not go beyond that and if we indulge the temptation to Speculation if we indulge the the temptation to enter into the labyrinth to go beyond where God has said this far and no farther if We insist upon climbing the wall

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Formed by the farthest end of his divine revelation and Seeking to inquire even further into the divine mystery.

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We enter into a labyrinth from which we will never extract ourselves for without that thread

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That thread that you hold on to in the darkness that guides you through the labyrinth, which means you cannot run swiftly

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Which means you must move slowly hence the the language that he uses here

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So that it is better to limp along this path than to dash with all speed outside it

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Limp along this path remember Calvin frequently refers to the fact the Word of God is

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God lisping to us It's it's God speaking baby. Talk to us. We don't like that either because we don't want to see that kind of Chasm of ontological difference between ourselves and God We we want to think that we can sit down with God at the table and and speak as equals

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But God has in fact greatly humbled himself to communicate to us in a way that we can understand and So this idea of going beyond divine revelation

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Calvin sees it as hubris a Lack of humility arrogance the pride of the creature

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It is an affront to God's Sovereignty because it is saying well

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God has placed a limit as to what we can know in Scripture and That limit is is too binding we disagree with the wisdom of the

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Holy Spirit In essence is Calvin's point when we choose to go beyond That which he has revealed in Scripture and as a result

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We enter into areas once we leave the solid rock the solid foundation of divine revelation

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We enter into areas where we will of necessity end up in self contradiction

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Now these are words I need to repeat to myself because the fact that when you deal with apologetics

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You Tend to succumb to the temptation to strive for some form of omniscience

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To strive to be able to answer any Question that could possibly be placed before you and the fact is that within Christian the

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Christian faith itself There are all sorts of questions that God leaves us in the area of faith as to its answer

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We are like the little child who at times is faced with something that is beyond his or her capacity.

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I remember very clearly and she remembers very clearly an experience in my daughter's life where as a very young child she kept having these terrible earaches and Ear infections and so it was time for the dreaded

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Tubes in the ear and I remember when we took her to the hospital and they come out to get her in the waiting room and the horrible helpless feeling as they these

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People in gowns take her from us. We've tried to explain to her But we can't go in with her and her leaning away from this person her arms outstretched crying madly for daddy to rescue her from these terrible people and and daddy can't do that, but she had to trust that we were doing this for for the right purposes and reasons and We don't like similes like that we do not like examples like that because it again reminds us of Just how great is the distance between the creator and the created?

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And yet those are all biblical concepts. Those are all biblical images God is far beyond our highest aspirations of him and His thoughts are above our thoughts

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He weighs the entire universe in the scale. He is the creator of all things.

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He speaks and things come into existence and so We have to keep that in mind and have to keep in mind that God has the right to determine

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How much he's going to reveal and how much he is not and and there is a tendency on the part of the apologetically minded

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To want to go beyond that to want to go beyond the revelation go beyond the wisdom of God and in so doing we

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Reckon, I think we Give evidence of the fact That often we have the wrong idea as to what apologetics is and to who

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Fundamentally is the one that makes apologetics worthwhile you

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Simply cannot change the hearts of men men will as long as they remain in rebellion against God as long as God has not extended his grace to them so as to Change those hearts of rebellion

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Will always be able to come up with questions to substantiate their continued rebellion

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That is that is part of the perversion of the very image of God is man's incredible ability to suppress the knowledge of God and to do so in so many and varied ways and so these words are important to me because they

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Demonstrate that here was one who had a great intellect. I've often Considered who had the greater intellect

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Jonathan Edwards or John Calvin and I think some might point to Edwards because Edwards was a tremendous philosopher and Edwards had wide -ranging interests and things like that, but While that's a possibility

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And I don't think we could ever you know come to any sound conclusion about the question

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There is one place where Calvin showed more maturity than Edwards did and That was on this very issue for Edwards did not

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Stay within the realm of Scripture. He especially in attempting to figure out How one who was in an unfallen state

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Adam could fall? decided to go beyond Scripture and to try to come to a conclusion and even someone with as great an admiration for Edwards and indeed a love for Edwards as Jonathan Gerstner could come to conclusion that here the the great intellect of Northampton found himself in a morass of self -contradiction and Why did he find himself there?

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He found himself there because he went beyond that which was written He climbed the the wall at the end of divine revelation and entered the labyrinth and even the great intellect of Edwards could not find its way out of that labyrinth that certainly

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Calvin had warned him of Years before and of course

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Edwards was familiar with the writings of Calvin but that particular point did not seem to sink in at least on that particular philosophical question of the nature of Adams will and things like that and I think there is a an element of this that we need to Think of a number of times.

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Here's a couple of the quotes. I wanted to share with you today Human curiosity renders the discussion of predestination already somewhat difficult of itself very confusing and even dangerous

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No restraints can hold it back from wandering in forbidden bypass and thrusting upward to the heights if Allowed it will leave no secret to God that it will not search out and unravel

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Since we see so many on all sides rushing into this audacity and impudence

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Among them certain men and not otherwise bad. They should in due season be reminded of the measure of their duty in this regard

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First then let them remember remember that when they inquire into predestination they are penetrating the sacred precincts of divine wisdom if anyone with carefree assurance breaks into this place he will not succeed in satisfying his curiosity and He will and here's the same language again.

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He will enter a labyrinth from which he can find no exit For it is not right for man unrestrained ly to search out things that the

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Lord has willed to be hidden himself And to unfold from eternity itself the sublimest wisdom which he would have us revere

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But not understand that through this also we should he should fill us with wonder He has set forth by his word the secrets of his will that he has decided to reveal to us these he decided to reveal insofar as he foresaw that they would concern us and benefit us and so there seems to be in Calvin's words here an attitude on the part of mankind an

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Attitude that allows God to be God now part of that the historical terminology that has been used of this attitude is that of mystery and again, the apologetically minded

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Don't like this word. I don't particularly like this word only because I've heard it abused so many times

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I have been accused wrongly by many of saying ah well You just you rush off and embrace the concept of mystery

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You know the a couple of the Muslims in London We're saying well James just simply refers to mystery and I and in explain the

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Trinity and I don't I haven't I mean? There's mystery in the Trinity in the sense that We as creatures cannot begin to comprehend the fullness of God But I have never said that the mystery is a self contradictory that the

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Trinity is a self contradictory concept and you just have to grasp mystery to make a sense of that's that's not the case at all and the same way at that type of terminology is frequently used by people who don't have a biblical leg to stand on to support their position and So you just fill in the holes in a less than biblical position with the term mystery

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There is a biblical term. There is a biblical use the term mystery It's primarily in reference to that which had been hidden in the

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Old Covenant that which has been made Visible and understandable in the New Covenant So there is a biblical use of the word, but I think there is an appropriate theological aspect to the term mystery as well and that is there it is descriptive of the attitude that we have when we come to the the knowledge of God found in Scripture we come to that wall and What attitude should we have when we come to the limits of God's revelation

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Should we chafe at that Should we question God's wisdom or? Should the proper attitude to be to fall upon one's knees in Worship and all

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I think that's what Calvin was saying elsewhere in book 1 chapter 5 section 9

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He's talking about the Trinity and he said these words we must therefore be much more profoundly affected by this knowledge

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Than if we were imagine a God of whom no perception came through to us Consequently, we know the most perfect way of seeking

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God and the most suitable order is not for us to attempt with bold curiosity to penetrate the investigation of his essence

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Which we ought more to adore Than meticulously to search out

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Now do you hear that speaking of his essence and this is the same language he uses in talking about predestination

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He speaks of this bold curiosity This bold curiosity we should always be curious about what the

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Word of God says But there's a curiosity that goes beyond what the Word of God has said it says that's not enough for me

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Of course, I've never found anyone to be perfect honest with you in my experience Who had this attitude and I have met many?

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Who actually was much of a master of the Word of God at all? They had a surface level knowledge

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But taking the knowledge they had and putting it together into a Christian worldview that demonstrated wisdom

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They didn't have that and so they had a surface level knowledge the word and they thought they had a very deep knowledge the word

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And so when they came to those areas where the word has ceased to speak that's why they chafed at that point and they wanted to go beyond that and It has led to a lot of problems

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But that's what he's talking about and the most suitable order is not for us to attempt with bold Curiosity to penetrate the investigation of his essence

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Which we ought more to adore Than meticulously to search out

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I Think he's saying that there is an attitude a proper worshipful attitude that when you come

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To the end of Revelation and not a lot of people ever get to the end of Revelation to be perfectly honest with you.

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I Mean takes a lot of work to be able to honestly say that that I have examined

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All of the key texts and I have I have I have sought to to really understand the whole counsel of God on this point but even when one comes to that conclusion as You stand at that last part of the path

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Where beyond that is the darkness of the labyrinth? Beyond that is the realm of speculation

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There is a bold curiosity on the part of many of us who are apologetically minded

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Maybe we can fashion a flashlight that will be bright enough for us to to get through the labyrinth

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Maybe we we will be able to see something and no one in any Previous generation has been able to see

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I mean we are much wiser than the ancients. Are we not? We have iPods and cell phones and computers

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We can just plug it into the computer and figure it out, right Well, no

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But there is an attitude on the part of many that stands there and either plunges with impudence into that which

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God has chosen to keep to himself or Fashions means outside the

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Word of God to further the path I Think what Calvin is saying is when you get to that end where you're standing at the edge of the light that the proper attitude is to fall to one's knees and Adore the

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God who has given you the light and the privilege to reach the point that you have

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That I think is what he's saying and I would agree with that For so much damage has been done over the history of the church by those who impudently decided to press forward

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Rather than finding satisfaction in the extent of the revelation that God has given now, it's interesting to me

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That's when Calvin first wrote the Institutes the Christian religion He was in his 20s, which is amazing.

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It was but a booklet it Increased between seven and eight times its size by the time the final

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Latin edition in 1559 and He never rewrote the book in the sense of he never changed anything he simply rearranged and expanded

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He expanded especially in a pastoral sense one of the best -known pastoral

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Emendations that he makes to the Institutes is up through as I recall. I'm doing this off top my head 15 the 55th the 1556 edition the discussion of predestination had been included as it is in most systematic theologies in The section the doctrine of God at the beginning of the

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Institutes in the 1559 edition You can go all the way through the doctrine of God and you will not encounter the discussion of predestination

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It's no longer in book one It's not in book two It's in book three, but before you get to it in book three

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You have the whole discussion of how to receive the grace of Christ you have a whole discussion the Holy Spirit you have the longest chapter in the

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Institutes and that's on prayer and Finally upon completing the discussion of prayer you now have the discussion of predestination

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That probably was the result of Calvin's pastoral experience Recognizing that this is primarily an issue for the believer to wrestle with not the unbeliever

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That the unbeliever will always find a way to object to this divine truth It is the believer who knows his own heart well enough so as to Recognize the truth of the sovereignty of grace

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But even before getting to that I'll Pick up with the rest of the quotation that I was reading before this is chapter 21 book 3

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Section 2 I read a portion of section 1 earlier We have entered the pathway of faith says

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Augustine Let us hold steadfastly to it it leads us to the king's chamber in which are hid all treasures of knowledge and wisdom

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For the Lord Christ himself to not bear a grudge against his great and most select disciples when he said I have many things to Say to you, but you cannot bear them now

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We must walk we must advance we must grow that our hearts may be capable of those things which we cannot yet grasp

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But if the last day finds us advancing there, we shall learn what we could not learn here

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If this thought prevails with us that the Word of the Lord is the sole way that can lead us in our search For all that is lawful to hold concerning him and is the sole light to illumine our vision of all that we should see of him

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It will readily keep and restrain us from all rashness for we shall know that the moment we exceed the bounds of the word our course is outside the pathway and in darkness and That there we must repeatedly wander slip and stumble

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Let this therefore first of all be before our eyes to seek any other knowledge of predestination

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Than what the Word of God discloses is not less insane that if one should purpose to walk in a pathless waste

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Or to see in darkness and let us not be ashamed to be ignorant of something in this matter wherein there is certain learned ignorance

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Rather let us willingly refrain from inquiring into a kind of knowledge the ardent desire for which is both foolish and dangerous nay even deadly

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But if a wanton curiosity agitates us we shall always do well to oppose to it this restraining thought

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Just as too much honey is not good So for the curious the investigation of glory is not turned into glory

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For there is good reason for us to be deterred from this insolence, which can only plunge us into ruin

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Those are strong words insolence Pride curiosity But then he addresses the other side and I'll try to get this in before our break the second danger

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Anxious silence about the doctrine of election. Here's what he says There are others who wishing to cure this evil all but require that every mention of predestination be buried

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Indeed, they teach us to avoid any question of it as we would a reef Even though their moderation this matter is rightly to be praised because they feel these mysteries ought to be discussed with great soberness

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Yet because they descend to too low a level they make little progress with the human understanding which does not allow itself to be easily restrained

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Therefore to hold to a proper limit in this regard Also, we shall have to turn back to the

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Word of the Lord in which we have a sure rule for the understanding For scripture is the school of the

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Holy Spirit in which as nothing is omitted that is both necessary and useful to know

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So nothing is taught But what is expedient to know?

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therefore we must guard against depriving believers of anything disclosed about predestination in Scripture lest we seem either wickedly to defraud them of the blessing of their

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God or To accuse and scoff at the Holy Spirit for having published what is in any way?

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profitable to suppress that when

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I first read the Institutes in seminary, I I don't know if I heard this of somebody else or if I came up with it on my own

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I'll be perfectly honest with you at that point I think I came up with it on my own, but I could be wrong. So I'm not going to claim it in that way

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But the illustration I used was the ink smudges the ink in the

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Institute's smudges That is the that is the mark of true greatness in literary achievement is

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That you can write something that when read four and five hundred years later is

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Still as relevant as when you first wrote it That's not easy to do Most of us have to depend so much upon the crutch of the present that it's very very very difficult to do that Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

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We're gonna take our break and be right back How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey

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To the Sun Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources

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Pastors you will appreciate the phrase matching tool Which will allow you to find all of the verses containing phrases similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon preparation

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I have used Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program

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You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate The Trinity is a basic teaching of the

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Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the

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Trinity Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommend it

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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is

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Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the

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Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you And Welcome back to the dividing line on a

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Thursday afternoon. We got to get that same song for a for a rejoiner I thought that was that was really up -tempo

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So we're really excited around here. We have a new spot to run I can't possibly figure out why you'd be excited about that tune.

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Oh, I have no idea Sound almost a little Celtic didn't it?

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Yes it did It's also Tim Janis and I like Tim Janis, he's a great guy

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So and he also said I could use whatever music he's done. So that's like, you know stack of CDs that tall

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So that's really great. Anyway, so we're excited to have the Bible work spot

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And I want to did you did you hear how that professional announcer dude said pericope?

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I mean that is to rip those things out like that that takes years and years of training and stuff like that So We're gonna have more stuff coming in the future

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Lord willing And maybe someday the the old Ashley commercials can be recycled

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Can have a commercial we'll have commercials in the violin one day none of which are more than five years old

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Well, somebody made the comment about a ten -year -old commercial, you know brand new commercial followed by the ten -year -old commercial

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Well, you know if we'd start Selling new books, maybe we could come up with new you mean writing new books holes, you know writing new books

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Is that what you're talking about writing new books? Where's it? Where's the commercial for the you know? well

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You have pulpit crimes That's pretty new, isn't it? Yes, and I have a fairly new commercial to go along with it

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Well a couple years, but hey, it's better. Well then. Oh, so I should be cranking out books more often

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Commercial that's what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Okay Anyway, I mentioned last week that we had some

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More clips to play so I'm gonna go ahead and get to them and of your comments if you'd like to call today

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It's seven seven seven five three three three four one We're sort of avoiding the textual critical subject today.

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Maybe get a few people that have fallen asleep Unfortunately to back in that doesn't mean if you don't have a if you have a text critical question, you can't call but Anyway, the clips aren't gonna be on that.

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I have been provided with some intellecting clips here and One Catholic apologist.

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I haven't debated yet, and I'd like to set up a debate I am going back to New Jersey in June.

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And so who knows maybe something could be worked out. It'd be nice But mr. Martin Yoni appears on the

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Catholic answers live or once in a while And he's an interesting fellow.

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I think we could have an interesting debate Especially when he makes comments like he did here talking about well about debates

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John. What exactly do we mean when we're talking? scriptural apologetics

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I was out of raised a Catholic But didn't really learn my faith early on left the church for many years and came back into the church and after actually learning my faith

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God kept putting me in positions where people were asking questions about the Catholic Church and why

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Catholics believe that why do they believe it and being here in Alabama where we're What three to four percent

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Catholic maybe that much? Yes, maybe most the questions were from Non -catholic

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Christians who were saying where in the Bible does it say this where in the Bible does it say that so all of what?

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I do grew out of my personal experiences in talking to non -catholic Christians and having to defend Straight from the

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Bible where Catholic teaching is and I tell people You know Catholic teaching is supported either directly or indirectly

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Just from the Bible you can do it just from the Bible. That's not how we as Catholics do it but for those

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Christians Baptists evangelicals Protestants, whatever they might call themselves who go by the

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Bible alone They want to know where it is in the Bible They don't care what the Pope says what the catechism says they want to know what does the

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Bible say? And so I tell people as Catholics we can defend solely from the Bible our faith

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Better than any other Christian faith tradition can defend their faith using just the

38:32

Bible So that's what scriptural apologetic is all about defending the Catholic faith

38:37

Catholic teachings and beliefs using just the Bible Because that's what most non -catholic

38:43

Christians want to hear from just the Bible. We're not making this stuff up Right.

38:49

No, we're not. I mean, that's that's that's the whole point of it And if you go in and you say look we can use your

38:56

Bible to make this point You know, don't don't go by my Bible hand me your King James and let's and let's talk about this

39:03

Absolutely. That's people say well, what do you do John with those seven books that Catholics have that non -catholics don't

39:10

I said? Well, I generally don't use them because I will play on the other guys playing field and I'll Know the lack of a better Terminology, I'll look them at his own game on his own playing field

39:26

You know as someone who has watched you in debate several times

39:31

It is it is just amazing to watch John Martin Oni in action because I've seen you go up against people with PowerPoint Presentations and overhead projectors and you know a whole backup staff and it's versus John Martin Oni and the

39:46

Bible right and yet and yet People, you know come away and go gee.

39:52

I never thought of it that way Well, but I tell people it's easy to defend the truth

40:00

As long as you can know you can have people that well They might be able to talk around you and talk circles around you and and they might even be able to get you

40:09

Kind of thinking. Oh, wow. What do I answer that? But when you know that you're with the church the church founded by Jesus Christ Then it's it's really actually very easy as long as you just keep your wits about you

40:23

It's very easy to defend the truth and to come away Looking good not because of any particular skill on my part, but because it's the truth.

40:33

I don't want you I I think we ought to contact John Martin Yanni and see if he'd like to maybe debate the

40:42

Marian dogmas out of the script the scriptures that would be I would love to see somebody run off to Revelation 12 or reading entire volumes into kakar to many at Luke 128 and I Think that would be exceptionally useful.

41:02

So we're gonna have to try to track down. Mr Martin Yanni and see if we can't schedule something.

41:07

We haven't done a Roman Catholic debate in a long time and It's not for lack of anything other than it's tough to get

41:15

Roman Catholics to debate In fact, I just realized I was just invited to go back to a church

41:22

I was at last year and that church we had tried to arrange a Roman Catholic debate prior to the conference so maybe

41:30

I'll contact them and see if they could Set something up.

41:37

This would be in September With John Martin Yanni because they're in a Roman Catholic area.

41:42

So I think they might want to do that So I think I'll contact them and see if that's possibility because When when someone talks about whooping them on their own home court

41:54

Okay, it sounds sounds interesting might be might be worthwhile Here's another clip from John Martin Yanni that will make you

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Think a little bit maybe or do something Inspiring you and showing us the way.

42:17

I have a question In order for marriage to be valid The conjugal act has to take place.

42:25

I think that's church teaching and where is that in the Bible and if so How is the marriage of Joseph and Mary valid and that's my question

42:39

Okay. Well, um in the very beginning of Genesis you see Genesis 2 verse 24

42:46

Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife So we're talking marital context here and they become one flesh

42:53

How do they become one flesh through the consummation of the marriage the physical act now regarding?

43:00

Joseph and Mary that was not You know the seven sacraments marriage being one of them is that they were instituted

43:12

By Jesus Christ, well at the time of the marriage of Mary and Joseph Jesus had not yet been born.

43:20

So in the terms of a Christian sacramental marriage, it was not one there were

43:27

Plenty of circumstances at the time where marriages were entered into By Perpetual virgins women who had taken vows of chastity and they were basically married to older men as to be their guardians because The Jews were looking for the return of the

43:56

Messiah. And so you had they had a number of these young unmarried girls who were

44:03

Basically dedicating their lives to the possibility that they could be the mother of the Messiah so This union between Joseph and Mary this marriage between them was not unusual and it was not again a typical

44:19

Christian marriage as we know and understand it today in the church that the church's seven sacraments as we have them today were instituted by Jesus and came into full play after The church went out to the world on the day of Pentecost Does that help you?

44:47

You know, I've I've heard Jerry Matitix You know doing the same thing and I think they just are quoting each other

44:54

I've never heard them actually back this up with anything other than just citing themselves

45:00

Where are these common? non marriages in Israel, what's the sources for these?

45:08

I've never heard anybody answer that I mean you might I suppose be able to find some oddball reference to some situation

45:19

Where some young child is married off to an old guy just simply for a protectorate situation

45:25

Which is clearly not The situation with Joseph because if that was the case, he wouldn't have thought about putting her away, but be it as it may

45:38

There's where is any of that even slightly hinted at in the New Testament I mean talk about reading entire truckloads of Eisegesis in the text there it is.

45:52

I mean just Wow just back up the truck and drop it in there and so this was not a sacramental marriage

46:04

Evidently, there were no sacramental marriages prior to Jesus. Does that mean it was not a valid marriage?

46:10

That's you know yet another almost dispensationalist type Attachment that is made there, but that was

46:19

I don't know I Didn't get a whole lot of confidence out of mr. Martin Yoni on that one

46:24

It was sort of a let's make this one up on the run So that was that was interesting so I think actually

46:35

I have a bunch of other I think I've played some of his stuff before But I think it would be it might be worthwhile to see if If maybe that church could arrange to to bring him in and we could do something

46:51

This year because it's been when was the last Roman Catholic debate That would have been

47:00

Bill Rutland would have been Bill Rutland in No Rutland was after Matilda Was Pacwa after Rutland on because we did was priesthood was before that okay?

47:13

Yeah So I guess Rutland was last one At least on Long Island it was and I don't think there's been any in a place else this particular church tried to get

47:22

Tim Staples last year, but Tim Staples is a very very very very very busy man for many many months and years into the future

47:29

But we'll see if they can give a call again and see what happens there, but anyway It has been a while So I think it would be worthwhile to do something like that especially on the

47:39

Marian dogmas or something like that because hey if you Can if you make the claim you can defend it all from Scripture We've heard gerrymatics do that and I've told the story before we'll get to our caller in just a moment

47:48

But I've I've told the story before of what happened after the debate with gerrymatics on the papacy in December of 1990 at the

48:00

City of the Lord in Tempe, Arizona the debate had been moderated by Scott Hahn and As soon as the debate was over Han stood up and he he looked at me, and he said you blew it because you brought up infallibility, and that's not what this debate was about and Then he looked at his good buddy gerrymatics

48:25

Who had been instrumental and is coming into the church? And they you know Jerry was gonna Rescue Scott and end up coming into the church himself and blah blah blah blah and in front of all these very happy Protestants who knew that debate had gone very well who were coming forward to Start talking to Jerry He said in front of all those people and you blew it speaking to Jerry you blew it because you used the

48:51

Bible as your only source and you just can't do that and With that he turned around and stalked out leaving

49:00

Jerry all alone with all the friendly Protestants That was the first time

49:07

I discovered that Scott Hahn had something called a temper and It illustrated itself that night to be sure so There are a couple of these guys say

49:18

I can just do it out of the Bible well, I've had I think 13 debates with Jerry matics, and I think we've seen how that works and I would be more than happy to Do that with John Martin Yoni as well eight seven seven?

49:33

Seven five three three three four one. Let's go over to California and talk to Stephen.

49:39

Hi Stephen Hey, dr. White. How are you doing good? Hey, I have a quick question for you

49:45

Former actually a mentor of mine posted on his blog Recently he he calls himself, you know, three and a half or four point

49:53

Calvinist And he is addressing Limited atonement on his blog in particular and he addresses mainly two passages the first of which being first John 2 2

50:05

And in writing on it He addresses the Typical what he calls the typical rebuttal by the particular

50:14

Redemptionist and that's that first John was written mainly to Jews and then when it refers to the whole world

50:19

Obviously you should be saying that people from all over the world are all different ethnicities

50:25

And his real only background For that the only the only backup he uses for making that statement.

50:31

He calls that strained Eisegesis by the way, I mean he quotes Dan Wallace Actually, and he says this is the quote from Dan Wallace says the audience was almost certainly made up mainly of Gentiles Not only not only is this seen in the kind of heresy which is fought

50:50

Antinomian the static neither of which was found among Jewish Christian sects But the epistle ends with the warning little children keep yourself from idols

50:58

So so that's his I'm just wondering what your response would be to the person who says that first John You know was written mainly to Gentiles and then how would you?

51:09

What would your exegesis look like a first John 2 2? Well, I think that well, I've addressed it of course in the potter's freedom, so I sent the potter's freedom to Dan Wallace and Dan's response the fact he endorsed the book and His response to me was you almost persuaded me to be a five -point

51:30

Calvinist so I would address the same way I did there and that is to address the issue of the extent of the

51:37

Atonement is to first and foremost address the issue of the nature of the Atonement and that's what

51:42

I do I I think that going to extent passages before you actually discuss what

51:48

Atonement is is completely backwards and Therefore in the vast majority of instances where people are simply proof texting and They're going to this text or that text rather than working through the concept of Atonement itself

52:00

In probably the toughest of the New Testament books for most people to handle and that is the subject

52:07

That is the book of Hebrews Is to end up wandering around and really not accomplishing anything at all

52:15

The question really has to be for example What what is John's understanding of what an advocate with the father would be which is first John 2 1

52:24

What does it mean to be an advocate with the father? Is that the same concept as intercession in in Hebrews?

52:30

What's the basis that in a session etc, etc? And when it's when it talks about propitiation, are we are we talking about true propitiation?

52:39

What does propitiation mean? Propitiation means removing the not only the the guilt of sin, but the

52:45

Satisfying the wrath of God against it and So is is the sacrifice of Christ truly propitiatory?

52:52

Has it taken away? The wrath of God for every single person in the world and how does

52:57

John understand that and that that concept himself? If you can cut first John out from the gospel of John and cut first John out from Revelation and there are people who do that I don't know that it's a big enough book to to leave you a whole lot of context to deal with that point

53:13

But unfortunately, that is the state of many people in modern evangelicalism as far as modern evangelical scholarship goes

53:19

They do that, but I don't do it in that way. And so I do ask the question. What is what is John's?

53:26

Concept that is being expressed here And and I think that the clearest extent the clearest texts from John in regards to the extent of the atonement or to be found in such texts as John 11 and in Revelation chapter 5 whereby his death he has redeemed people from every tribe tongue people and Nation, and so I think that you you have to start with what is atonement first and that isn't

53:55

Specifically what John is talking about here. He makes mention of it, but he says he is the propitiation for our sins

54:02

We have to be very serious about what propitiation means I think if you're going to look for something here

54:08

It says and not for ours only but also the sins the whole world and you're going to force whole world Into a

54:13

Western individualistic concept rather than the categories that John himself uses

54:19

Elsewhere when he talks about men from every tribe tongue people a nation. That's what whole world means for him

54:25

Then you're gonna have to probably be more concerned not about some kind of general atonement, but much more concerned about Universalism because the the result is going to be the removal of the basis of wrath

54:38

For all those for whom it is made. So that's why it goes back again To the the the issue of the nature of the atonement first not extent sure well, thank you, and I think that answered my question and I While since I read through Potter's freedom,

54:55

I should have looked there before I gave you a call But I got it. I got it on myself. So I'll pull that out

55:01

And I think I think I think in penance you should buy the new edition of the

55:06

Potter's freedom Which just now coming out there's 32 pages more and it has In that 32 pages a section on second first Peter 2 1 and first Timothy 4 10.

55:17

So And I gotta thank you too is I just put in an order with you guys about two weeks ago and I ordered the na -27 diaglot

55:26

Yeah Comforts text and translation commentary, which I love that.

55:31

Isn't that wonderful man? I'll say it's awesome. And I got the I also got the Capscan NASB I should be saying thank you to you

55:43

It was a late Christmas for me. All right, you know wonderful That's a great resources.

55:48

Well, thanks for your call Steven. All right. Thank you. God bless. Bye Yeah, that's if you get the na -27 any t -diaglot and the comfort text commentary at the same time and you're talking about We may have to start registering those as serious weapons of theological battle in the future or something

56:06

I put a little thing in with all those it says, you know this there may be some states

56:11

United States This is way too much firepower in theology Anyway, let's really quickly.

56:18

I'll have a couple Seconds here, but let's get to Nicholas real quick in Buffalo. Yes, Nicholas Good good.

56:25

I just had a quick question about imputation and You know Roman Catholics always call a legal fiction the concept of imputation, but correct me if I'm wrong but it just seems they're contradicting themselves when someone goes to purgatory and then someone else prays for someone in purgatory lessening their time in purgatory as far as I can understand they

56:48

Righteous works on behalf of the person doing the penance for the person is Considered to lessen the unrighteousness of the person in purgatory.

56:57

Isn't that kind of an imputation in and of itself? Yeah, except it's an imputation out of a fictional thing called the

57:03

Treasury of Merit Well, yeah, I exactly and I understood that but I I figured you knew a little bit more than I did about this

57:11

Yeah, you wrote a book on it. Yeah, I just wanted to know because it seems like a contradiction I want to bring this up with a friend of mine who's a

57:18

Roman Catholic, but well, I don't want to well Just myself into a corner. Yeah, just remember Nicholas that if your

57:25

Roman Catholic friend really does believe in the teachings of the church and is in his Cognizant of the continuing validity of the concept of indulgences in the

57:34

Treasury of Merit Then that would be a good direction to go but very few Catholics are

57:39

I mean if he's if he really does know about that Stuff then great. I would suggest you get hold of documents online called indulgent

57:46

ERM doctrina I quote from it in the Roman Catholic controversy, but it's good to have the whole thing so you can have illustrations of that Because that's a post post

57:57

Vatican to document and it should be very useful to you along those lines But yeah, I think you're on the right track there to demonstrate that that there is a internal contradiction there that the

58:08

Imputation of Christ's righteousness is based upon the true Union of the people of God with Christ.

58:14

Whereas you don't have any type of true grounding for that kind of Transaction sacramentally that they have in regards to indulgences.

58:21

So good direction to go Thank you very much for your phone call today Nicholas and thanks to everybody who called today and listened as well

58:28

We will be back Lord willing next Tuesday morning here on the dividing line. See you then god bless

59:29

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