Who is God?

Debate Format and Opening Remarks

Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, we will begin our debate in five minutes, in five minutes. We want you to know that there are water stations to your right and to your left up front here. Please take advantage of those before we begin.

We also want you to know that there has been a lost cell phone. It's got a rose case on it, and so if you find a cell phone, it's got a rose-colored case on it. You can take it to our sound booth right over here to my left, your right.

All right. About five minutes, we begin. Please find your seats. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to our religious public debate. My name is Dale Barcher, and I have agreed with the approval of both parties to moderate tonight's debate.

I currently serve as executive director of the Family Heritage Alliance. We are a Christian conservative public policy ministry here in the great state of South Dakota. The vision of our ministry is very, very clear.

We would that South Dakota would be a state where God is honored, religious freedom flourishes, families thrive, and life is cherished. You may check us out more thoroughly online at familyheritagealliance .org.

That's familyheritagealliance .org. Please take a moment right now, if you would, and silence your phones. Please take a moment and silence your phones. We would also ask tonight that if you take photos, that you do so without flash, as well as your video tonight.

We would appreciate that. Restroom facilities, ladies and gentlemen, are out the doors to my right. Take another right, head down the hallway, take another right, and you're right there. For your information this evening, we will be taking two 15-minute breaks during the debate.

Friends, it has been said, and rightly so, prayer isn't all that you should do, but you should do nothing until you have prayed. Would you please bow with me in prayer? Father, we thank you for the very gift of life.

You have gathered those of us in this room tonight from near and far for the purpose of contemplating who you are. Lord, we will only but begin to scratch the surface of that discussion here this evening.

May we speak our minds openly, debate our disagreements honestly, and always pursue the truth. For we know as we know that it is the truth that sets us free. We pray in the name of Jesus the Christ. Amen.

Ladies and gentlemen, the rules for tonight's debate have been agreed upon by both sides. What you need to know are three simple rules, and please note, these are rules and not suggestions. Number one, my role is that of a neutral moderator.

My decisions will be final and non-debatable this evening. As you would expect, both speakers are committed to conducting themselves in a manner befitting a Christian as they treat one another with total respect.

And lastly, we are not only expecting, but we are demanding a total respect from you, the audience. There shall be no heckling or shouting at the speakers. We are simply asking that you will refrain from applauding until a speaker's presentation has been completed.

Once again, we ask that you respectfully refrain from applauding until the speaker's presentation has been completed. And please note, if a speaker is interrupted, his time clock will be stopped and not started until I have settled the disruption.

This agreed upon protocol shall be strictly followed here this evening. Friends, we can do this. We can have a respectful and civil debate. After all, we are South Dakota nice. Tonight, we will be discussing life's most important topic, that of who is God.

We are honored to have in the house two respected debaters. May I introduce them to you, and would you please hold your applause until both have been introduced. Brother Joe Ventilacion is a principled apologist in the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

He has been an ordained minister of the gospel since 1980. He obtained his Bachelor of Evangelical Ministry in 1980 after five years of study at the Iglesia Ni Cristo School for Ministers. His first ministerial assignment after ordination was in Stockton, California, where he spent his ministry in several California congregations, including San Francisco, San Diego, Baldwin Park, Corona, and Burlingame.

From there, he served other congregations in the United States, such as Omaha, Boston, and Guam. He then returned to the Philippines and taught Bible doctrine at the Iglesia Ni Cristo School for Ministers prior to his assignment in Scenic, South Dakota, on April 15, 2015.

Dr. James White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a professor and theologian. He is a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary and Columbia Evangelical Seminary and is currently in the Ph .D. program at Northwest University in South Africa under well-known textual critic scholar Dr. Jory Jordan.

His Ph .D. in apologetics focused on the biblical doctrine of the Trinity and the resultant book, The Forgotten Trinity, which has been used as a textbook in English-speaking schools across the U .S. and England.

He has authored more than 20 books, including The King James Only Controversy, The Roman Catholic Controversy, Scripture Alone, and What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Quran. He is a professor, having taught Greek, Greek exegesis, Hebrew systematic theology, church history, and many topics in apologetics at schools in the United States, Germany, Switzerland, Ukraine, and South Africa.

He has engaged in more than 150 moderated public debates with leading proponents of Roman Catholicism, Islam, Mormonism, and Oneness Pentecostalism. He has debated leading critics of Christianity. He has been married for 35 years to his wife Kelly, has two children, and two wonderful grandchildren.

He is an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. And now, ladies and gentlemen, would you join me in giving our guest debaters a warm South Dakota welcome. That was South Dakota nice. Thank you.

Herein is tonight's proposition to be debated, resolved. The Bible teaches that within the one being that is God, there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Dr. James White will be arguing the affirmative, representing South Dakota apologetics. And Brother Joe Ventilacion will argue the negative, representing Iglesia Ni Cristo. Gentlemen, are you both ready?

Yes. Then let us begin. First affirmative presentation for 20 minutes, Dr. White.

The Trinity, Monotheism, and the Meaning of John 17:3

Well, good evening. It is an honor to be with you this evening. We have a lot to talk about, however, so we're going to dive right in, skip over some of the niceties, and get to the issue this evening on the doctrine of the Trinity.

Let's go to the heart of the issue. Now, let's be honest with ourselves. All Orthodox Christians are monotheists. We all believe there is only one true God. I stand before you as a person who has debated Mormons in Salt Lake City many times, defending the fact that there is only one true God.

Trinitarians are not polytheists. We do not believe in many gods. I do not believe in many gods as a Trinitarian. So, proving that there is only one true God in this debate is to demonstrate that you have no idea what the real issues are, because that's not the subject this evening.

We're not debating whether we are monotheists. We're all monotheists. Tonight, we have two kinds of monotheism being presented this evening. You have Unitarian monotheism, where the one being of God is shared by only one person.

So, Unitarianism is the idea that you have one God, one being of God, and only one person sharing that being. Trinitarian monotheism, where the one being of God is shared by three persons. We clearly differentiate between being and person.

Being is what makes someone what they are. Person is what makes someone whom they are. These are two distinct concepts. Now, if, therefore, the Bible reveals that there are three persons who are described as sharing the one divine being, the debate must be concluded in favor of Trinitarianism.

Trinitarians believe the Father, the Son, and the Spirit have taken different roles in creation and redemption. Therefore, proving that there are differences between the persons is irrelevant to this debate.

We recognize the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father. Therefore, differentiating between them means nothing if you're actually arguing against the doctrine of the Trinity.

So, let's not waste our time with strawman argumentation. You cannot simply assume Unitarianism and then read it into the text of the Bible. You must prove Unitarianism in the same way I must prove Trinitarianism.

You can't just assume it and say, well, it says God, therefore, that must be the end of the debate. For example, John chapter 17, verse 3. Jesus addresses the Father as the only true God. This is irrelevant to our debate unless you assume Unitarianism.

What was Jesus supposed to say? You're one of many gods? We're all monotheists. Jesus isn't going to talk to the Father as if he's one of many gods. And so, in the same way, what is more, in John 17, verse 3, Jesus makes eternal life dependent upon joint knowledge of the Father and the Son and then goes on within one sentence to say, and now, Father, glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had in your presence before the world came to be.

That's not a plan speaking, my friends. Plans do not use personal pronouns. This is a divine person speaking to another divine person about a time in eternity past when the two shared eternal glory. That's within one sentence of John 17, verse 3.

So let's not invest time on proving things that are not in dispute. The issue is Trinitarianism versus Unitarianism. Now, starting point, two absolutely necessary foundational starting points this evening that will determine how you listen to this debate.

I believe in sola scriptura. Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith for the Church. I do not accept any other quote-unquote revelations from God. But I also believe in tota scriptura. We must believe all that the Scripture teaches.

We cannot pick and choose. We must harmonize our beliefs with all of God's revelation because all of it has been given to us by the Spirit of God. Sola scriptura, tota scriptura hold both of us to those standards this evening.

The Deity of Christ in the New Testament

Now, for Christians down through the ages, there really hasn't been any question about this. There is no question New Testament describes Jesus as the os, as God. In Titus 2 .13 and 2 Peter 1 .1, Jesus is called our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, using what's known as a Granville Sharp construction in those texts.

In Romans 9 .5, we have referring to Christ, who is overall the eternally blessed God. In John 20 .28, Thomas specifically says to the Lord Jesus, ὀκορυάσμου καὶ ἀθεάσμου, my Lord and my God, both words being applied to Jesus.

And Jesus accepts these words and, in fact, blesses them as a statement of faith. If Jesus was merely a man, he should have immediately rebuked Thomas and said, never say something like that to me. I am not your Lord and your God.

He accepts Thomas' statement. In John 1 .1, we're told that the Logos, the Word, eternally existed in 1 .1a, that he eternally existed in personal relationship with the Father in 1 .1b, and that as to his nature, he is deity.

Likewise, John tells us that Jesus is the Ego-I-Me, the I-Am, in John 8 .24, 8 .58, 13 .19, and 18 .5 -6. Jesus is worshipped in a religious context and is described as the Creator of all things in John 1 .3, Colossians 1 .16 -17, Hebrews 1 .2 -3.

We even possess a fragment of an early hymn of the Church, used by the Apostle Paul as a sermon illustration in his letter to the Church at Philippi. There we read these words, You must have the same mindset among yourselves as it was in Christ Jesus, who, although he eternally existed in the very form of God, did not consider that equality he had with God the Father something to be held on to at all costs, but instead, he made himself nothing.

Notice this is the divine person acting in eternity past. He made himself nothing in the Incarnation, by taking on the very form of a slave, by being made in human likeness, and having entered into human existence, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even the death one dies on a cross.

Because of this, God the Father exalted him to the highest place, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, so that the mention of the exalted name of Jesus, everyone who is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth bows the knee, by the way that's a quotation from Isaiah 45 about Jehovah God, and every tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Kurios, is Lord, all to the glory of God the Father.

This is the faith of the Christian people and has been from the beginning. So if all of this is true, why are we here tonight? Well, because Unitarians assume that all these texts must mean something other than that the Trinity is true, because they assume Unitarianism.

So how can we get past this problem? The answer, I believe, is found in recognizing one startling and yet inarguable fact. The writers of the New Testament identify Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as Yahweh, the one true God.

What this means is that if we find that the New Testament writers, in fact, differentiate between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and they do, and yet identify each as Yahweh, then they are teaching the Trinity.

One being of God, Yahweh, shared by three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So is this what we find in the New Testament revelation? It most assuredly is. In Psalm 102, verses 25 to 27, we read these words.

Of old you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. Even they will perish, but you endure, and all of them will wear out like a garment. Like clothing, you will change them, and they will be changed.

But you are the same, and your years will not come to an end. Now who is this about? Go back to verse 22. It is about Yahweh. Only Yahweh is unchanging and immutable. Any mere creature or creation cannot be described in the way that Yahweh is described in Psalm 102, 25 through 27.

These are words of the only one true God. Then we turn to the book of Hebrews, chapter 1. In verse 8, we have a series of Old Testament quotations with the phrase, But of the Son, he says, followed by a citation of Psalm 45.

So here the writer is telling us, these are texts about the Son, Jesus. Verse 10 begins with the basic and, indicating a second citation about the Son. And what does the writer to the Hebrews quote about the Son of God?

Well, you can look at it. Hebrews, chapter 1, verses 10 through 12. In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will pass away, but you remain.

They all will become old as a garment. As a cloak, you will roll them up. As a garment, they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end. Quoting directly from the Greek Septuagint version of Psalm 102.

Words that can only be applied to Yahweh. Plainly applied to the Son in inspired scripture. Why would the writer to the Hebrews do such a thing? Because he believed in the deity of Christ. At the close of Jesus' public ministry, the Gospel of John reports in John, chapter 12, verses 39 -41.

For this reason, they were unable to believe. Because again, Isaiah said, he has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts. So that their eyes would be unseen, their hearts without understanding. They would not turn, and I would heal them.

These things Isaiah said, because he saw his glory and spoke concerning him. This is a citation from Isaiah, chapter 6. When Isaiah is commissioned as a prophet. And notice what he says. These things Isaiah said, because he saw his glory and he spoke concerning him.

So when we go back, John's citing from Isaiah's temple vision. Where the prophet saw Yahweh upon his throne. So in verse 41 says, these things Isaiah said, because he saw his glory. The only his in the context of John, chapter 12, is Jesus.

And verse 42 goes on to prove that that's who's in view here. So if we ask Isaiah, Isaiah who did you see? His answer would be Yahweh. But if we ask John, who did Isaiah see? John's answer is who? Jesus.

He saw Jesus. So consider what this means. In John's gospel alone. Jesus identified as Theos in John 1 .1. 1 .18 in 2028. Jesus identified as the Ego I am, the I am in 8 .24, 8 .58, 13 .19, 18 .5 -6. And he's identified as Yahweh in John 12 .41.

You think John's trying to communicate something to us here? Yes, he is. And he is doing so with great clarity. One other example, 1 Peter chapter 3, verses 14 -15. You're probably familiar with the text.

But even if you suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. Do not fear their intimidation, neither be troubled. But treat as holy Christ as Lord in your hearts. Now I've used italics to show you where Peter is quoting from the Greek Septuagint.

And he is quoting a text about Yahweh God. And so when he says, treat as holy the Messiah as Kurios in your hearts. That Greek term Kurios is the Hebrew term Yahweh in Isaiah 8 .12 -13. So here you have Peter along with John.

And we see Paul also does this in Philippians chapter 2 when he quotes from Isaiah 45. All the New Testament writers, the writer of the Hebrews, what are they all doing? They're identifying Jesus as Yahweh.

That is what the scriptures are teaching us. So why have the Christian people from the days of the apostles confessed Jesus as deity? And that long before there was anything even remotely resembling today's Roman Catholic Church?

Because you cannot believe in Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura. And not believe in the deity of Christ. For the words of scripture taken as a whole, taken together in context, teach this truth. Consider the words of Ignatius of Antioch written only a matter of years after the apostles.

Listen to these words. The very generation after the apostles. Long before there was anybody who claimed to be a pope in Rome. There is one physician of flesh and of spirit, generate and ingenerate, God existing in flesh, true life and death, both from Mary and from God, first passable and then impassable, Jesus Christ our Lord.

The first generation of Christians. This is what they believed. This doesn't come from Rome. This comes from the apostles of Jesus Christ himself. Now, my friends, yes, the Bible says there is one and only one God.

That is not the question this evening. Yes, the Bible differentiates between the father and the son. It is the son who took on flesh, not the father. It is the son who made himself of no reputation. It is the son who did that out of his great love and out of the father's great love and the spirit's great love for us.

These are not disputed facts. There is no question of these things. But the Bible likewise identifies Jesus as Yahweh, showing us the divine truth that the being of God is shared by three divine persons.

The father, the son and the spirit. This is what you must believe if you believe the entirety of Scripture. That is the Trinity, and the Trinity is a biblical teaching. Let me remind you again. Is the father Yahweh?

Who lays our sins upon the Messiah according to Isaiah 53? It is Yahweh that lays our sins upon the Messiah. So there the fathers identify as Yahweh. We have seen the son identify as Yahweh. Who is the spirit of Yahweh in the New Testament?

The spirit of God. These are undoubted questions. These are undoubted statements. There is a question about it. So what do we do with it? Well, Christians have always believed that it teaches us the doctrine of the Trinity.

So, please, consider well. I want us to finish my brief period of time with you, considering well the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. May these echo in all of our ears. Jesus was speaking to people no farther away from him than you are from me.

And he said, therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that ego I am me, I am, you will die in your sins. Now, my friends, does it make sense to you that you do not want to die in your sins?

It is pretty obvious, isn't it? You don't want to die in your sins. You want your sins dealt with before you face a thrice holy judge. These men would have accepted Jesus as a prophet. Sort of hard to disagree.

The man had supernatural power when he raised people from the dead. Heals blind eyes. But that wasn't enough. Jesus said, unless you believe that I am. The very same words that when he said those words to the soldiers and they came to arrest him, what happened?

They fell back on the ground. Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. My friends, we're here this evening to talk about who God is. But as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I must emphasize that the gospel itself is based upon who Jesus Christ is.

A false Jesus cannot save you. A Jesus who is any less than the one described for us in the page of the scripture cannot save you. I have debated this subject in mosques all around the world. I've stood in the Aguabaca Synagogue mosque in Erasmus, South Africa, where the imam leads the prayers.

And defended these very beliefs. And I say to you what I said to them. You cannot have a Jesus who's a mere prophet. You cannot have a Jesus who's a mere teacher. That Jesus never existed. Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

We need a divine savior. We need one who can truly give his life as the ransom sacrifice for sin. And that's the Jesus of the New Testament. Can you, with Thomas, can you repeat the words of Thomas when he saw the evidence of the resurrected Lord?

And he says to him, my Lord and my God. And Jesus' answer is, because you've seen me, have you believed, Thomas? Blessed are those who, having not seen, have believed. If Jesus was anything other than the eternal Son of God entered into flesh, he would have had to have rebuked Thomas at that very point.

But the reality is, the truth is, that just as Paul wrote to Titus, just as Peter wrote to his audience, 2 Peter 1 .1. The early Christians believed our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. That is the consistent faith of the Christian people down through the centuries.

And the reason is, it is the consistent teaching of God's inspired word. I call you to confess with me, Jesus Christ, our great God and Savior. Thank you for your attention this evening.

Cross-Examination on John 17:3 and John 1:1

Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we now begin our first cross-examination of the affirmative side by the negative side for 10 minutes. Brother Vindolation.

How would I address you, Dr. White? That's fine. Dr. White, the first verse you used was John 17 .3, am I right? Yes. Okay. In John 17 .3, who's the one speaking at that verse? Jesus addressing the Father.

Okay, he was addressing the Father. Yes. Now, when he addressed the Father, okay, what did he say to the Father concerning God? He addressed him as the only true God. The what? The only true God. Okay.

So if the one that is talking to the Father is saying, you are the only true God, how would you understand the word only? Could there be another God? No, I'm a monotheist, sir. I don't assume Unitarianism.

I will repeat the question. He said, you are the only. When he said, you are the only, is he referring to himself or to the Father? No, he's referring to the Father, obviously. He was referring to the Father.

So you believe what Christ said, that the Father is the only true God? Do you believe that? I certainly do because I'm a monotheist. I've said that from the start. I just don't assume Unitarianism, sir.

So did Jesus say that they will believe you and me as the only true God? Did he say that?

No, they said to have eternal life. They have eternal life in only knowing the Father and the Son.

So to Jesus, the only true God is the Father, right? There's only one God, sir, yes.

To Jesus in John 17. Yeah, you're arguing a point that is not in dispute.

You do not tell me what I have to do at Georgetown there, Dr. Wright, please. I am repeating my question. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. You believe that? Yes, I do. So to Jesus, the Father is the only true God.

Yes. How do you understand the word only? Could there be another one?

No. I understand it in light of what Jesus goes on to say when he talks about the time in eternity when he was glorious in the presence of the Father. And since there's only one glory of Yahweh, then Jesus would identify himself as Yahweh, would he not?

That's not my question.

I will repeat again, Dr. Wright.

I can't answer a question by looking at the verse after this? You can do that, but that will be it. You have consumed your presentation already. There's only one sentence in between, sir. There's only one sentence in between.

Don't you think you should allow at least three sentences in the context? That's not the point. The point is, Jesus

No, I think it is the point. Okay. You already used that, okay? You used John 17, 5, but I'm using John 17, 3. Jesus said the Father I believe both of them. I believe 3 and 5. You have to put them together.

You did, you did. And I thank you that you started with John 17, 3. Now, here's the next question based on your book, all right? You said that the Greek word theon Could you please put it on the screen, please?

The word theon is the accusative form or singular form of theos. Am I right? Yes. Okay. I don't see anything on the screen, but All right. But I could probably put that later on. Okay. Now, in your book, page 52, you said that the word theon the word theon describes

In what text are you talking about, sir? Your book. I know. What text in the Bible?

I'm asking about your book. I know, but I'm quoting from the Bible. What text in the Bible are we talking about?

John 17, 3. That's why we are here with John 17, 3. You forgot what you have written? No. Okay. All right. Okay. Here's the next question. All right. You said in Oh, wait. Okay. So the word theon. Yes, theon.

Manon eleithnon theon. Okay. Okay. All right. You said in page 52 that the word theon describes the Almighty God. Is that right? Yes. Describes the Almighty God. It describes the Yahweh also, correct?

It describes what? The Yahweh. The Yahweh? You mean Yahweh. Yahweh, yes. Yes. Okay. You also say that the word theon is a description of the creator of all things. Is that right?

Right. Okay. That's why it's used of Jesus who's the creator of all things too.

Now, in John 1, verse 1, do you see the word theon? Yes. Introduced by the article theon. Yes. Yes. Where is that in John 1, 1? Is it the second clause? Yes. Yes. So you have the theon in John 1, 1, and you said that the theon describes the Almighty God.

Specifically, I said that this is referring to the Father. Correct.

Okay. So the Almighty God, the theon in John 1, 1, is referring to the Father. In that context. In that context. Okay. It's not because it's an accusative though. Accusative is irrelevant. Well, the point here is that you said it is an accusative.

Yeah. Yes. On page 110, I believe, you said it is an accusative. The theon is referring to the Almighty God. In that context.

But as I said. In John 1, 1. Sir, let me just make sure I answer your question. The accusative is irrelevant. That's just how it's functioning in this particular case. I did not ask about the accusative.

You were the one who said that the theon is an accusative. My question there is on the theon. You said the theon is referring to the Almighty God in John 1, 1. To the Father. Yes. Okay. I'm not. That's not my question.

My question is you said that the theon refers to the Almighty God. I said the Father, sir. Okay. Now. So in John 1, 1. In John 1, 1. On the second clause where you have the theon. Is the theon there the Almighty God?

It's the Father. Yes. So in John 1, 1. The Almighty God is the Father.

I said once again. You can keep repeating yourself all you want. Everybody here knows that what I said. Am I consistent? Excuse me. Excuse me. You do need to allow me to answer your questions. I know you're on a roll here.

But you need to let me answer your questions. Definitely. If anyone reads my book. They will know that what I said is the first clause says that the Logos is eternal. The second clause says that the Logos is in eternal relationship with the Father.

I read it. And the third clause says that the Logos is as to his nature deity.

That's why I'm questioning you on the position of John 1, 1b. You said that the Logos is not the theon. And the theon you said. Prostantheon. In relationship with. Correct. Just as you have in John 17, 5.

That's what I said. In John 17. In John 1, 1. You said that the theon is the Almighty God. I said it was the Father.

Correct. So please stop misrepresenting me. No.

I'm not representing you. That is what you wrote in page 52. That the theon is the Almighty God.

And you're very confused about my presentation because you're trying to read it. Thank you for telling me I'm confused. Yes. Because you're trying to read it as if I'm a Unitarian. No, no, no. And I'm not as I've tried to tell everybody from the beginning.

Very nice answer, Mr. White. But you do not answer. I said in John 1, 1b. You said that the theon is the Almighty God. I said it was the Father. Yes. It is the Father. So the Father is the Almighty God.

Correct. Except that the very next clause identifies Jesus as theos. So I allow everything to speak, not just little words.

So the logos is not the theon. I'm sorry? Is the logos also the theon?

Not the individual, no. The logos is kai theos, ein ha logos. Thank you, thank you.

So the logos is not the theon.

Yes or no? No, not in the second clause.

So the logos is not the Almighty God.

So you are asking me to prove exactly what I said in my book. I'm not asking you to prove.

I'm asking you so you can answer the question. No, sir.

You don't want me to answer the question. You have a point that you're trying to force onto the text. And you are wrong about the text. And here's why you're wrong. Because the people in this audience recognize, sir, that you cannot take the Bible and cut it up into little phrases and forget what the next phrase is.

The next phrase after kai ha logos ein prostan theon is what, sir? It is kai theos ein ha logos. I'm satisfied with your answer already.

You're satisfied with my answer? I'm going back to John 1, 1b. You said that the theon is Yahweh. Correct?

The Father. There's only one God. So the Father is Yahweh, the Son is Yahweh, the Spirit is Yahweh. So the logos is not the theon. Am I right? The logos is not the Father. That's correct. No, no, no. The logos is theos.

The logos is not the theon. But the logos is theos. I'm not asking that question. The logos is not the Father. Is the logos also the theon? He's not the Father, sir. They are differentiated. You're not answering my question.

No, sir, I am. I am answering it as any person who can read the original language knows.

Is the logos also the theon? Yes or no?

The logos is just, it says prostan theon. Not the theon. He's in the presence of tan theon. So that's why it's the Father, not the Spirit or anyone else. All right, okay.

Now we go to John 17, 3. Do you see the word? We were just there. No, we were in John 1, 1. No. You're confused, okay? No. Okay. We were there before. Let's go back. Let's go back to John 1, John 17, 3.