Bryan Cross

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Started off with an e-mail from someone who has bought Rome’s anti-sola scriptura rhetoric hook, line, and sinker, without seeing the inconsistency thereof. Then looked at Bryan Cross’ simplistic misrepresentation of his former faith, looked at Bart Ehrman’s response to Dan Wallace and the Markan fragment find, and finished off with a call on the ordaining of the means as well as the ends.

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three -three -four -one And now with today's topic here is
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James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on Whatever day it is
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Thursday. Yes No Thursday program next week. I will be flying to Boston for the no compromise
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Video session, which I'm Certain will prove to be Very very interesting.
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I don't know what it's gonna be like To be very honest with you. I'm not really sure what we're gonna be saying but when you get
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Mike Abendroth and Phil Johnson and Carl Truman and myself in one place with video camera rolling
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I Can guarantee you it won't be boring I don't know. It might be
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I suppose Anything could happen, but I don't think Mike would allow that to happen. So we're gonna be shooting the emergency room video
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There in somewhere in Boston. I'm not sure why I guess you go to Boston and it's like I don't know
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It's just like really liberal there, you know But I Guess we're gonna be shooting it in a church and a studio and a graveyard.
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I don't know what Mike's doing, but I'm gonna show up and Hopefully I have something meaningful to add and just sort of sit back and listen to the smart guys talk
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Maybe we'll see how it works. Anyways, that's what we're doing next week so I think what would be best would be to go for a mega
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DL on Tuesday and That way we still get two hours worth in and there won't be quite as much complaining as there normally would be
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Though there probably will be anyways Because I'm I'm not around to do the the program on the program today a jumbo edition and I've got some emails and I've got some other stuff that has come up on the web and Maybe get back to Adnan Rashid.
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We'll see but I wanted to get to some emails a lot of discussion on Roman Catholicism today if that is your topic
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That's where we're going to be starting anyway, I got an email yesterday and I will confess that at first I didn't understand it and so I'm gonna read that and then there's a expansion and explanation of it and going to try to respond to it as best
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I can and then a There is a two -pronged discussion going on This morning,
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I saw an article by Brian cross at called to confusion and It illustrates yet once again the fact that when you swim the
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Tiber Odd things happen. There must be something in the water. That must be what it is
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You might get some water in the ears or something because when I crossed the Tiber I mean when
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I walked across the bridge anyways Back in when was I in Italy? What year was that?
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2000 Was that oh five or oh six or I don't remember what it was
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But I was it was oh five is to 2005 and I walked over the Milvian Bridge And I noticed the
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Tiber River is not the prettiest river on the planet. It it's sort of green It's not it's not real pretty so there's something in the water evidently because once you get over there
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If you swim the river I just walked over the bridge and walked back the other way if you swim the river you end up forgetting what you actually once believed if you actually once believed it and So we'll have an example of that to look at as well.
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And then we've got some some Ramblings from Bart Ehrman. I can't give you all the ramblings of Bart Ehrman because I refused to buy it
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I refused to buy a membership just to read his blog I've got all his books.
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I don't I don't need to buy a membership to read all to read his blog But that's that's what he wants you to do so well
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He's commented on the fragment of mark thing and so we'll comment on that as well
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So we got 90 minutes. We should be able to get through all that okay to the email
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I Won't mention mention names here, but I've indicated this Gentleman that I will be responding so he knows who it is
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I'm trying to decide if I should remain Protestant Baptist or join the Catholic Church I Have listened to several your debates who would like for you to clear up a few statements for me and your debate was staples you
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Stated that everyone must choose their ultimate authority You claimed that what sets your choice apart from Rome is that Jesus said scriptures are
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God breathed My first question is how do you know that Jesus said that?
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What if that statement itself is not true It seems to me to be circular logic to be precise One scripture is inerrant and infallible because it is
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God breathed number two We know this because Jesus says so in a scripture that is in the Bible three because the Bible has no mistakes this must be true for the
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Bible has no mistakes because Jesus said so in the Bible as If I had ever heard you oh, I'm sorry. I'm not supposed to comment yet anyways
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It's interesting however. I must admit to Hear Back what people think you actually said it is it is a fascinating thing
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But we will be correcting the major confusions here in a moment considering all of the alleged errors in the
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Bible supposedly over 1 ,000 I'm not sure where you got that How can we as Protestants justify the claim there are too many problems with Rome's doctrine or papacy to accept while at the same time?
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Accepting and admittedly difficult to accept Bible are we not assuming the printers instruction manual is correct
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I would be extremely thankful for thoughtful responses. I know much is riding on my and my family's decision
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I Was left really confused By this because how does converting to Roman Catholicism have anything to do with these questions
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I? Mean there's so many category errors and so much Complete disconnection between the points being made that I'm like okay
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And so if you join Rome the Bible becomes inerrant. I mean Rome claims
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It depends on which Roman Catholic you're talking to I mean you've got your liberal Roman Catholics don't believe in inerrancy of scripture, and you've got your conservative
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Roman Catholics that do and and No one really knows and Rome can't really tell you one way or the other and and so how does becoming a
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Roman Catholic? Solve any of this and so I wrote back, and I and I basically said Um How I don't understand
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Could you? Explain to me What what you mean by this
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I said in fact I said I am very confused your questions would be common ones if you were Playing on leaving the
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Christian faith becoming agnostic or an atheist, but they make no sense if you're considering become a Roman Catholic I mean how would following Rome be relevant to alleged errors in the
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Bible for let's say there are errors in Bible How would that be relevant at all to the fact that Rome's papacy developed over time?
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It was based upon consistent use of forged documents such as the nation of Constantine in the studio as it oriented creedals I fail to see any consistent logic in your thought in the formation of these questions likewise you ask how
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I know Jesus said something It wasn't Jesus. It was Paul by the way It said that Rome says he said the same words so how would becoming a follower of Rome change anything?
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Could you shed some light on why you think Rome has answers to the very questions you're asking me? And how are they relevant to a conversion
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Roman Catholicism rather than simply an abandonment of faith, and so he wrote back and he said
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He said I'm afraid of my attempt to keep the email brief We lost some clarity allow me to illuminate my questions so that I can look forward to a world -class scholarly response on the dividing line
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Yeah, I'm sort of wondering about that too. I'm I just looked out through the window and rich is going
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Okay I'm not so certain about the Well, I love the the
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Arminian style Reply that you know the the eternal lives of my entire family rests on the shoulders of your answer
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I I do get the very distinct feeling that this decision has already been made and I do get the distinct feeling that this is so that someone can say oh, and I even asked somebody, but it's already
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Exposed facto I do think I get those I get that feeling, but I'm gonna do my best anyways and Leave the results to Lord.
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I'm attempting to hold you to the standards that you set for yourself And mr. Staples during the soul scriptura debate You made the assertion if an argument can be used against both sides is not a valid argument
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I agree however it seems to me that your main problem with soul scriptura sola ecclesia Was that and I I just stopped right there and say are you admitting that Rome actually teaches sola ecclesia?
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I mean, it's pretty obvious that it does, but I'm just sort of wondering if if you are admitting that number one
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It was not explicitly stated in the Bible so evidently one of my arguments was that sola ecclesia is not explicitly stated in the
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Bible I never remember making that statement I Clearly stated that it's not taught in the
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Bible and in fact. It's taught against in the Bible But I didn't say sola ecclesia is wrong because the phrase doesn't appear in the
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Bible because I don't claim that it does in fact sola ecclesia is a phrase that I and others have used as the counterpoint to Rome's Use of sola scriptura and attacking sola scriptura there's got to be both positions have to put on the table and they have to be examined and Rome Roman Catholic apologists don't like to defend
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Rome's authority claims. They just like to attack sola scriptura and So that's why I mentioned that and to that there were many problems with Catholic authority namely the bodily assumption of Mary in the papacy
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Now here's where this fellow has major category problems Because he seems to be putting the assertion of alleged
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Contradictions in the Bible on the same level now in in one sense. I'm glad that he's actually recognizing
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Rome's real claim is not what Rome says it is Because if the if any of these objections are actually meaningful he's he's he's accepting sola ecclesia
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Yeah, Rome's the final authority. Don't don't worry about this tradition stuff. Don't worry about this Three -legged stool thing, you know majesty.
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No, no Rome's the final authority and I'm functioning on that on that level I that seems to be at least he's admitting that That that's the case.
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There would be a lot of Roman Catholics. I'm not sure would be happy that he's admitting that but anyway but secondly we're talking about a an authority here that claims infallibility on the part of a living voice now this living voice
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Then claims to have infallible authority to interpret that which is God breathed which is the scriptures and I pointed out that the claims that the system makes for itself are invalid claims
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That for example the bodily assumption Mary is not an apostolic teaching yet my opponent would say that it is but he can't prove that and I pointed out that the papacy developed over time and that it is the fundamental authority that Underlies all of the claims that Roman Catholicism makes in all other areas
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Now it sounds like what he's saying is well if there are contradictions in the Bible, how is that not a con? Problem is he didn't bother to provide any contradictions in the
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Bible I've had lots of atheists try to do that and Mormons try to do that and Muslims try to do that That's what was so strange remember the debate
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I did with the Roman Catholic on the Apocrypha and he wouldn't even respond to my pointing out errors in Apocryphal books because well that's questioning inerrancy and so I'm just knocking me answer the question
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So you actually have Roman Catholics they won't even respond To allegations of contradictions the
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Bible, but they claim that there aren't any contradictions in the Bible But there are other Roman Catholics do and if Rome actually has an answer to this
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How come there's so much confusion about it? I? mean why are there Roman Catholics who believe in inerrancy and Roman Catholics don't
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I would think that would be a subject that the infallible Magisterium would be able to speak with some level of clarity to but it has not and So I'm sort of wondering if this fellow becomes
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Roman Catholic um whose interpretation of Magisterial documents are you going to accept or you could come up with your own?
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Because now you're not just gonna have to interpret the Bible now. You have to interpret all the stuff that Rome is produced that's why
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I finished my debate with Mitch Pacquiao and I bought out all these books the documents of Vatican 2 and the and the
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Compendium of documents referred to in Vatican 2 and the Kansas decrees the Council of Trent and and all this stuff
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And I said this clarifies a Romans 5 1 actually says really Does this clarify or does it confuse well obviously confuses so I?
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Didn't say that my main problem is my main problem is sola ecclesia is That it is historically unfounded and it is not rooted in that which is the honest us that which is
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God breathed All right, so he says my problem with the argumentation is that the same issues are found when considering solo scriptura
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Well, no, they're not because I don't have an extra biblical authority. I'm attempting to add to that which is the honest us
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But I go on one it is not explicitly found scripture. Well. I didn't say that my problem was a solo ecclesia
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It wasn't explicitly found scripture. I Substantiated and demonstrated in that debate and my debates of geriatrics and other people on the same subject that solo scriptura is in fact taught in scripture and I don't see any refutation of that in these emails that are
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Sam and Secondly there are many problem passages with the actual biblical text
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Okay, name them Let's talk about them. That's what I've done when I've debated atheists and people like that But I'm not just going to accept your assertion
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I know I mean I was debating Dennis McKinsey back in the 1980s for crying out loud and There you go
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They people love to throw out. Well, there's all these people that say there are errors in the Bible. Well, I know there are
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Let's get specific. Let's let's look at them But I'm not gonna
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I'm not gonna just go. Okay. Well since lots of people say so and it must be true Without having provided I can't really respond in almost any of this because well, give me some examples how can we as Protestants scoff at things like the bodily assumption of Mary and Problem Popes and all the while wear rose -colored glasses to what many scholars find an acceptable
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Bible. Well, that's just that's just bogus This is not true. We don't we write look
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I Remember when I was doing the the series of debates on Long Island's Roman Catholics Roman Catholics would come to my debates with others because they recognized that I would do what
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Roman Catholics would not do I would actually defend the Bible against atheists and Muslims and people like that Their people wouldn't do that So I'm not wearing any rose -colored glasses.
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It's the evangelicals. It's the Reformed folks that produce entire books
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Dealing with alleged biblical problems. It's not Rome that does that Rome in its in its primary biblical scholarship that is
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Associated with the current Pope has given up on all that stuff So I so if you've got a problem here going to Rome's last thing you want to do that That's just what doesn't make any sense in any of this is
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Going to Rome when Rome is considerably less conservative on these issues in its official pronouncements
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Then we are But we ain't wearing any rose -colored glasses You look you look sir since I know he's listening or will listen to the podcast anyways you look at the the
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Sermons how many hours worth of Jamie used to know how many hours worth of sermons on Hebrews I've done so far 45 hours or something along those lines
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So far, what's that? More than 45, okay
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And coming up in a couple weeks could be adding to that you look at the just the sermon series I've done on Hebrews some of the toughest biblical difficulties
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That I've ever found are found Hebrews have I ducked them have I dodged them have
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I worn? rose -colored glasses So as to avoid them no but How come
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I've gotten exactly one person? To attempt to defend the bodily assumption of Mary, and I don't think that debate was even close
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I will allow anybody to listen to the debate I did Roberts and Jenison bodily assumption of Mary and it
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No one else will do it Staples won't do it Staples won't even admit that we debated purgatory
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That's just that's just sort of like the pseudo -Isidore decretals. It's just well. We won't worry about the fact that that's actually bogus um so We do not have
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And by the way, it's not scoffing at the bodily assumption of Mary To document that no one in the first 500 years of the history of the church had any clue
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That that was an alleged dogma from God. That's not scoffing That's demonstrating historically that what Rome has said in Rome's own claims and defining these dogmas is a lie
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It's just a lie. I mean we're talking history here. We're talking documentary history here um so There is no is no comparison at all all the
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Catholics You have debated I continue on thus far have all accepted your view of scripture. Well.
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That's interesting in the sense that Roman Catholic apologists do tend to be conservatives because when you're a liberal
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Roman Catholic you don't do apologetics I found that I mean who are the liberal
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Protestant apologists there aren't any Because they don't have anything to defend if God has not spoken.
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It's all just a matter of opinion anyways so Why why even worry about it?
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So yeah, they've pretty much operated on a high view of scripture
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I'm not sure that Mitch Pack was a Jesuit. Well. You know he might he might he's but if he does
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He's one of like four Jesuits that would hold that high a view of scripture all the rest of them would not and he'd be the
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First one to admit that to you. He really would be That's why I like Mitch, but anyways
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All the Catholics who debated thus far have all accepted your view of scripture However you made the statement that you could find
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Catholic scholars That could fill this place up that would not agree at the Bible is indeed errant inerrant.
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Yep Just go up to Boston College or any number of Roman Catholic institutions in the
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United States and elsewhere and you will find every kind of wild teaching in regards to the
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Bible and Rome for some reason fails to Fail to discipline these people
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Strange isn't it for the infallible Church? This makes things more difficult all that you offered up was a type of circular logic explained in the previous email
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I'm sorry. We haven't seen any circular logic yet Because we have seen category errors on the part of my correspondent here.
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We have seen no circular logic whatsoever There are many
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Protestants and Catholics that do not hold to an inerrant biblical text for example CS Lewis Just love when people throw
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Lewis around for as if that's somehow relevant to me So I do not see that it follows necessarily these issues are only for those considering atheism well again sir, you wrote to me and your objections are the objections of atheists and yet your
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Contemplated conversion is to Roman Catholicism a system that cannot answer any of your objections
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That's why it was confusing and remains confusing What's what are you gonna get by going to Rome?
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What do you accomplish? It doesn't it doesn't follow finally why
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Rome and not atheism to be perfectly honest There is absolutely no argument that could convince me that my relationship with Christ is all in my head
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Well, what is your relationship with Christ sir? What do you is this is this a subjective feeling and so you've got a subjective feeling of a
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Christ presence But You know,
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I like I said, I get the strong feeling that I'm already talking to someone who's on the other side of the
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Tiber but for others who might be in the same position I Will never understand
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How anyone who has found peace in? the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them a finished sacrifice never to be repeated or Represented that perfects those for whom it is made a
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Righteousness that knows no addition and no imperfection.
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I Will never understand how someone Who has made that confession can then look at the never -ending treadmill of?
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Roman Catholicism and its sacraments and its imperfect sacrifice and its priest and its penances and its purgatory and See something in that That could even begin to be compared to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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I'll never understand it I'll never understand When I have people say to me, well, you know
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It's a sort of looks to me like what you find the Gospels is a little bit more like Rome than what you find in Rome in Reformed Theology.
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I go really you can look at the Gospels and find priests who call themselves altar
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Christus You can find purgatory in the Gospels. You can find the mass and Transubstantiation and satis passio in the
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Gospels that looks more to you Than what you have in Reformed Theology in Romans 4 and the
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Blessed Man. Really? I Don't get it. Don't Get it.
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Don't understand it. It's not possible major disconnection That truly makes me wonder about Paul's words
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When he said if we don't love the truth then God might cause us to love a lie No more than anyone could show me that my wife and children are simply imaginary I must admit however that I am greatly troubled by the failure of sola scriptura and application
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Well, we haven't seen a failure of sola scriptura and application, sir Could you could you explain what that is?
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I See a a massive wide variety of expressions within Roman Catholicism where you have a denial of sola scriptura and Religions that deny sola scriptura present a massively wide viewpoint on the
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Bible, but those who actually confess understand confess and Seek to practice sola scriptura.
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Wow, there is not nearly the range of Theological expression amongst those folks
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Not nearly the range. That's what's so that's what's so desperately dishonest about Roman Catholic apologetics when they talk about 30 ,000 nominations, that's a lie.
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We all know it's a lie We've documented to be a lie so many times that every time you hear by saying it just go up that person is lying
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There's there's a lie there Because they include Gnostics and Mormons and people who's
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Explicitly reject sola scriptura, but if you actually get down to the people who actually
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Confess it and try to practice it you will find significantly more unity about what they say
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Then amongst those who take the Bible and say ah, you need an external authority. We deny sola scriptura.
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So I Guess you would have to admit then That you would be more greatly troubled by the failure of sola ecclesia in application, which would mean you can't go to Rome, right?
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I mean if you're gonna be consistent If you're gonna be consistent, how do
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I please God and Who do I go to to teach me? My life dream is to be a
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Christian apologist really So do I learn from John MacArthur or Kenneth Copeland?
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Okay, right there I just throw my hands up and go really hard to take this seriously really hard to take this seriously
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Because if you practice sola scriptura, you really have a question there. I Don't I don't think any rational person could but if you do something else is going on there big time
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I think your friends down under would say he's he'd be dreaming. Maybe he's dreaming. Did he even
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That's right, it's a nice little thought that'll keep the the Australians are now going hey, hey
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They're all very happy about that. He beat the demon So to learn from John MacArthur Kenneth Copeland William Lane Craig or James White well
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One of the two of us Will state the other person's position accurately and take it to the
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Bible and one of us will not even mention the other one or Talk about the other one or debate the other one or anything else
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Martin Luther or John Calvin well John Calvin obviously Should I speak in tongues must
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I be baptized for salvation Should I have my two -month -old son baptized or not? So in other words because I can have all these questions and people disagree then the
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Bible's not enough So I'm gonna turn my brain off and go to Rome Even though Rome can't answer any of these questions for me either other than just simply saying follow me
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Sir there are all sorts of people out there Who if you are willing to hand your brain over to them will tell you what to believe?
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There's folks in Salt Lake and there's folks in Brooklyn, and there's there's folks everywhere. That's not an argument against God having spoken
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Is there an underlying Concept here if he is serious if this is serious
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That he's looking for something like what my wife described when she was raised in Rome that when she asked those difficult questions
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She was told to be quiet and do what she was told. I don't know I mean is that what he's looking for I can't have these you can't answer these questions
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So I need somebody to just tell me what to do. Well. There's No, it's more The issue is more well because there are disagreements see
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I've mentioned this many many times But you know not everybody listens way back machine. You know and and this hasn't been the big focus for a while So let me let me point it out again
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Rome gets unstable and untaught people and some of these questions evidence instability and a lack of solid grounding on the part of my correspondent they get them
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They they snatch them away they grab disciples under themselves By getting them to accept certain presuppositions and assumptions that are
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Bogus and false one of them is that we are all Supposed to just be able to sit down and There's we all should just say the exact same thing and think the exact same thing.
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Oh well Paul says Yeah, he had to exhort Christians had to exhort them.
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Why do you have to exhort them well? Because sometimes Christians Don't hear and sometimes
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Christians have traditions, and there's all sorts of well Trout at all there's all this stuff in the
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New Testament about churches having difficulties hmm You see it's based upon the assumption
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That there is supposed to be this this lockstep mentality where you just sort of go to the you go to the
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Well you go to the magisterium And the magisterium will just tell you exactly why you're supposed to what you're supposed to say what you're supposed to do the problem is
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Not even Rome offers that I? mean aside from all the differences how many
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Biblical texts can you go to and get an infallible interpretation from Rome there are some
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Roman Catholics to say none some will say seven verses Congratulations 2 ,000 years seven verses at this rate
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It's gonna. Take about what 25 ,000 years to get through the New Testament, so What do you what the assumption is
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That when Paul met with the Ephesian elders and he says you're not gonna see my face anymore, and they're weeping and These are men he has invested three years of his life in He spent more time helping this church to become established which by the way did not have a
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Roman Catholic Form of church government, but anyways he's established his church. He's met with the elders plural, and he's never gonna see him again
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So what does he say to him? Make sure to follow the successors of Peter Is that what he says to him?
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No he warns them the tough kind of times are coming and There are gonna be people that are gonna rise from their own midst.
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They're gonna draw people away. This is Acts chapter 20 Difficult times coming so just follow
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Rome. That's what he says right no He commits them to God and to the word of his grace oh
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Come on Paul that's not enough Evidently it is if you follow the
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Apostles Now if you want to grab hold of well there there needs to be this other standard there needs
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We need to have more unity That worked real well during the Inquisition. I'll never forget when
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I debated fastigi on those television programs and Just offhandedly well the cameras weren't running, but the people in the in the control studio saw it
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I Pointed out that one of the things he had said was contradicted by these other Roman Catholic scholars
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And he said well yeah There is a whole lot a whole lot wider range of opinion being expressed since we stopped the
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Inquisition Yeah, yeah, you think yeah, you think yep mm -hmm, but still that didn't even accomplish it did it
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No, it did not It seems that it is God's intention that every generation must struggle with ep agonism
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I Jude they must struggle for The once -for -all delivered the
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Saints faith But you see they never give up faith that it's the once -for -all delivered the
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Saints faith They don't need some unbiblical anti -biblical
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Structure of church government often a city someplace that had no
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New Testament roots as far as being the head of all Christians To take away from their them their responsibility to struggle and To work through these things and Yeah, that means there's could be some disagreements
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There were during the days of the Apostles anyway
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If I accept your reasoning that the misuse of an adequate source Does not explicitly deny that source is adequacy that still leaves me with two feet planted firmly into nothing now for those who don't know what he's referring to I Pointed out that you can misuse an adequate source
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You can buy a printer and it can have a this was back in the days when they would still Ship this remember the big huge printer manuals that were normally bound on the spiral thing
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You know now it's on a PDF that you stick it and stick on a disk or download from the net But I pointed out that there are people who misuse scripture.
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That doesn't mean scripture is wrong It doesn't mean that scripture isn't is not an infallible source It's not sufficient for the church and I point out scripture itself warned us that Untaught and unstable men would distort the scriptures their own destruction.
34:52
That means that there are taught and stable men who will not Okay, that's the background
35:00
So he says if I accept your reasoning that the misuse of an adequate source does not explicitly deny the source is adequacy
35:06
That still leaves him with two feet planted firmly into nothing. I am no longer
35:13
I am no closer to understanding the darn computer manual. Oh, really? I Mean this is this is this is someone who's just already given up I mean this is and I've seen it so many times once you once you
35:24
Once anyone no longer believes that God has spoken with clarity then they're right for anything cults
35:31
Rome Easter out that doesn't matter atheism doesn't matter that they're gonna go someplace and I firmly believe
35:37
I Firmly believe that it is part of the work of the Spirit of God in regeneration
35:44
To with to implant in the heart of his redeemed That same thing that G has talked about my sheep hear my voice
35:52
This is not a sheep speaking here. That language is not a sheep. This man may be
35:58
But he's either been deceived or in the process of being deceived wanted to No question about it
36:04
The infamous 20 ,000 dominations may not explicitly deny scripture as an infallible source, but probably probability
36:12
Probabilistically, it becomes greatly unreasonable think that this is a sufficient soul source. Why?
36:18
First of all, the numbers a lie, please accept that look at the documentation You'll see it's a lie If you can accept the 20 30 ,000 and you have to accept there's 754 right
36:27
Roman Catholic churches and all the rest that stuff It's just a lie People who repeat it are lying and they know they're lying.
36:34
Let's let's that's that's not even an argument anymore Okay, that's leave that over the side You want unity
36:44
Great Rome won't give it to you Rome won't give it to you.
36:53
I mean you can you can go into the honeymoon period and And go into Rome and think all is well, but once you open your eyes
37:02
You will see there is no unity there You will see there is just as wide a variety of viewpoints and you can't just ring up old
37:11
Benny the 16th on the phone Say, how do you interpret this text? you can go to this
37:18
Roman Catholic and that Roman Catholic and this prelate and that cardinal and this bishop and that that's a member of the pontifical biblical
37:25
Institute and come up with just as wide a variety of opinions as you did before and Any honest person will have to admit that so don't tell me this is why you're converting because it isn't
37:39
You've got to know this Hence the great attraction to the Catholic claim of infallible interpreter.
37:45
No How? Seven verses even admitting that seven verses.
37:51
This is this is this is this is how you somehow get around that Your exegesis of scripture and mistress and Genesis exegesis both seem intelligent and informed really
38:04
You couldn't tell the difference in our exegesis when we debated the bodily assumption well, there couldn't be any bodily assumption because it's not in the
38:11
Bible, but in Acts 15, you can't tell a difference there and Bob St.
38:16
Genesis isn't quoting an infallible interpretation Because he doesn't have one.
38:23
There is no infallible interpretation of the Bible that substantiates what we are arguing about So why not go with the attractive infallible interpreter because it accomplishes nothing it's a lie
38:36
It's a phantom. It's a mist Where has Rome infallibly interpreted
38:42
Romans 5 1 where sir, they haven't They haven't so why not go with the attractive infallible interpreter because there are problem popes there are problem scriptures
38:56
Why is your choice? Dr. White better off than mr. Staples? that's that's the thinking of someone who's already already on the other side and Already willing to just close the eyes and go.
39:09
Okay, we're infallible. But yeah We've had popes that have contradicted themselves, but but still we're infallible
39:16
But yeah, I know we haven't infallibly interpreted almost any of the Bible at all, but we're still infallible But I it just makes me feel so good that I can go to an infallible interpreter
39:25
Even if they don't interpret anything infallibly for me, and it just makes you feel good What did it accomplish
39:33
When you go to your bishop and ask him to infallibly interpret a text for you, is he going to do so?
39:39
No, he's not gonna do so He's gonna say well, there are certain Roman Catholics say this and some bishops say that and some scholars say this
39:46
Well, what happened to my infallible interpretation? Well, that well, that's that's We have an infallible authority to tell you what to believe
39:54
But We're not gonna infallibly interpret the Bible for you. It's just so sad
40:07
To see someone who has become so confused That you can't see the forest for the trees anymore
40:13
We are infallible in the papacy Don't worry about the pornography and don't worry about the fact that for hundreds of years
40:20
Every person became a bishop of Rome had to anathematize on Aureus That's that was all back then.
40:28
Don't worry about everything is fine now. And yes I know the entire papacy was built up using
40:34
Forged documents that we recognize are forged now But yeah, it just sort of hangs in midair because its foundations have been knocked out
40:42
But just believe it'll make you feel so good To say
40:47
I've got an infallible authority, I don't have to struggle with anything anymore and If you want to keep your eyes closed
40:55
To the vast differences and the teachings of of this Roman Catholic theologian and that Roman Catholic you you can
41:03
You can go through life going. Ah, all is well But there's a reason
41:10
There's a reason why it's not Roman Catholic apologists that really challenge The rest of the world today
41:18
There's a reason why there were little Roman Catholic ladies sitting down front when I debated Hamza Abdul Malik Because they know their folks don't really do real well at that and You might have a honeymoon period where all seems well, but you know, my prayer is
41:35
The Spirit of God would force your eyes open to see That you've been sold a bill of goods
41:44
What an infallible interpreter Asked the infallible interpreter to infallibly interpret
41:50
Romans 8 and 9 you can't because there is none Infallible interpretation is
41:56
Rome's authority tells you believe these things and if it disagrees with that Well, we'll say your interpretation of that's wrong
42:03
But we won't actually tell you what it really does say. I Remember I was driving around LA listening to it to Tim Staples talking and he was talking about Matthew 16 and Even he said, oh, of course,
42:23
Matthew 16 has been infallibly interpreted However, just because there's an infallible interpretation does not mean that there are also not other valid interpretations of the same tax
42:35
So why not go with the attractive infallible interpreter well a it's not attractive
42:43
I can't I cannot believe that any person
42:50
Who has ever truly Rejoiced in The perfect finished work of Jesus Christ can find
42:59
Rome to be attractive in any way shape or form So I don't even know what an attractive infallible interpreter is
43:04
Because I don't find one. I find one that will tell me that My very relationship with God is depend upon Him and his
43:16
Magisterium and his priests and and the doling out of grace over time and in some sacramental system
43:22
But I don't find that attractive at all But the fact is as an infallible interpreter he stinks
43:32
Because he's never gotten around to doing it Where is this tradition?
43:38
Show it to us define it for us Trace it back to the Apostles Give us that in infallible inspired commentary on the
43:48
Bible that gives us a final interpretation. Why not? Oh We've got it.
43:55
We could do it if we wanted to And the reason you don't well, hey, you know, um amazing
44:04
Really is amazing Meanwhile over at the call to confusion website we have a
44:14
Article Posted says April 1st, which I find interesting. I Wait a minute
44:21
April 1st of 2010 Well, maybe it's just re re referenced but from Brian Cross Catholic and Reformed conceptions of the
44:31
Atonement and there is a graphic and I Should have linked to this
44:41
But I didn't but you can find a call to communion 2010 slash o4 slash
44:47
Catholic Reformed conceptions the Atonement with a dash but just search for it and there's a Graphic there and you have two crosses and on the ones once the
44:56
Reformed ones the Catholic on the left side God the Father and an arrow coming down to the cross marked wrath and On the
45:05
Catholic side you have a cross God the Father and the arrow goes up from the cross to God the Father and it's marked self sacrificial love and so the
45:18
Reformed perspective is well All you have is
45:23
God the Father pouring out his wrath on the Sun but in the
45:29
Catholic you have Christ self sacrificial love being shown to God the
45:36
Father and There's all sorts of stuff to be said here.
45:41
I mean, there's a whole discussion like I said going on at Green Baggins on a lot of this stuff and It's it's interesting.
45:50
There's You know, there's there's a number of statements about Isaiah 53
46:01
That are that's that's made in this that's that's truly amazing um
46:07
Yeah here for example after quoting Isaiah 53 4 through 6 and 6 and 10 through 11 cross says this means that Christ carried in his body the sufferings that sin has brought into the world and That Christ suffered in his soul over all the sins of the world and their offense against God He bore our iniquities not in the sense that God punished him for what we did
46:30
But in the sense that he grieved over them all in solidarity with us
46:37
That is what it means the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all he suffered the consequences of sin suffering grief death by entering into Solidarity with us entering into our fallen world and allowing himself to suffer in it with us for us even by our hands
46:56
But there is no substitutionary atonement now in the Comment thread over at Green Baggins He's been challenged a number of times and at the last
47:08
I could see he has not come up with this Rome Hasn't infallibly defined this either
47:18
I've met Roman Catholics who are absolutely certain that Substitutionary atonement is a part of Roman Catholic teaching and I've met just as many others said no way it's ridiculous
47:27
And there seems to be division for some reason you'd think all that extra biblical infallible stuff would have cleared it up But it hasn't for some strange odd reason
47:40
Because it never does obviously But here you have a fundamental denial of the substitutionary concept but while that is an amazing thing to Observe and I think that all of our ecumenically minded mere
47:57
Christianity Evangelicals should hear that and I think that sort of illustrates the fact that they don't really care
48:05
Because they're not really focused upon the meaning of the atonement themselves anymore, but aside from all that fuzziness
48:12
How can a person who claims to have once been reformed put up a graphic like that? What happens when you know,
48:19
I I just You know Said earlier
48:26
What's the process? Where in swimming across the Tiber River? Honest recognition of what you once believed goes bye -bye
48:39
It just it just disappears Because if Brian Cross actually thinks that the reform view is what he that there is no self -sacrificial love there is
48:54
I mean I suppose he could have just really not known what he believed.
49:01
I you know, then he needs to admit Sort of like Steve Ray always admits.
49:07
I was an ignorant Baptist. Well, and now he's an ignorant Catholic He's just gone from one to the other but he needs to just be straightforward
49:14
I I didn't really spend much time thinking about what reformed people actually thought because how can you read what we have said?
49:21
About the atonement and go. Well, it's just it's just this just this one thing And you know, it's just God the
49:27
Father pouring out wrath how many times have I sat behind this microphone and Talked about the multi -faceted nature of the atoning work of Christ and I've said over and over again if all you see in the cross if you don't see both the awesome wrath of God against sin and The tremendous love of the triune
49:55
God Then you're not seeing all across. I've I've lost track of how many times
50:02
I've said that and I'm not the only one that does it I represent Reformed orthodoxy when
50:08
I say that no one's gonna argue that that's no one would no one could honestly go
50:14
Yeah, that's the reformed view. It's just a bunch wrath. There's nothing else. No, there's there's no self -giving on the part of Christ There's nothing about love here.
50:21
And it's just it's just wrath wrath wrath It's ridiculous What is it?
50:27
About swimming the Tiber River That causes this kind of Misrepresentation, I don't understand it but it's it's there and all and you know,
50:41
I'll admit I made this comment and looking at the lengthy line of Comments that are continuing to pile up.
50:52
I mean just over the past few minutes It's amazing we can talk about The And I'm not
51:05
I'm not saying this about the the Christians who are involved there turrets and fans involved in doing a lot of this stuff, but the
51:13
One of the things that really does get to me after a while is how quickly
51:23
Almost any discussion with certain Roman Catholic apologists or converts Turns into nothing more than a massive exercise in sophistry
51:33
No connection to the Bible no connection well you know this person said this and this person said that and maybe this person and maybe we could look at it this way and it's just It just I look at this world and I look at what's going on and I look at the need for a a clear testimony to a world that is either soaked in secular humanism, which sucks the very life out of humanity or Under the heel of Islam and its false teachings and It just I have to admit makes me angry
52:13
That people can waste their time with sophistry Rather than going to the
52:18
Word of God. It just It's it's bothersome.
52:26
It truly truly is well something else that's rather interesting today as we
52:32
Trundle along through the jumbo edition here with another 35 minutes left in the program is
52:40
I Was linked to Bart's blog now
52:47
I Only get to read the public part of Bart's blog Because I simply refuse to buy a membership to read
52:59
Bart Ehrman repeating himself over and over again Even in this article first century copy of mark part 1 6
53:08
April even in this article It's the same old same old.
53:15
It's it's straight off of his computer from the From the presentations that I've listened to over and over anything
53:25
It even includes the same bad jokes, I just oh It's it's so Bothersome to hear the very same bad jokes referred to over and Over and over again.
53:42
I mean listen this this is the let's see one two three four Fourth paragraph, okay ready for this
53:53
The vast majority of these differences are completely unimportant immaterial insignificant and don't matter for a thing
53:59
Other than the show that ancient Christian scribes could spell no better than most people can today and they didn't have spellcheck
54:05
In fact, they didn't have dictionaries But some of the differences matter a lot affecting how a verse or a passage or even an entire book is to be interpreted
54:14
When you change what the words of a text are you obviously change what the words of a text are You obviously also change what the words of the text mean and so it matters which words were originally written
54:23
Okay, how many times we heard that? Straight out of my debate straight out of every debate.
54:29
He's done with Dan Wallace straight out of every YouTube lecture It's the same thing Except that he didn't bother to throw in the
54:37
I can't believe my students at Chapel Hill They turn in papers with misspelled words.
54:42
How can they do that? They're using a computer It underlines it in red for crying out loud now
54:48
He skipped that joke when he did the debate at the school that he teaches it
54:54
But his students have to know they have to know that when he travels around that's exactly what he says
55:02
So I'm not gonna pay to hear the same thing over and over and over again I know what we paid him to do the debate in Florida.
55:09
And so we've spent he's gotten enough Okay, no two ways about it, but what this particular one is about I will respond at least to what he says here
55:21
First of all, he raises the issue He says in his response to my discussion in the debate
55:29
Dan made a surprise announcement We now have a first century copy of mark. He told the astonished audience and the astonished
55:35
Bart When asked he would not or could not tell us very much about this first century copy of mark
55:41
But it is obviously very important to know the details now We've played We've played this on the program before What Dan did was in as a part of Laying out the
56:02
Tremendous supremacy of the New Testament manuscript tradition in comparison to any other work of antiquity in Laying that out.
56:15
He made this Announcement and He did not he did not base his argument upon it he just simply
56:31
Mentioned it as further evidence of the fact
56:37
That we have very early attestation And by the way, that is not a disputed element in the debate with Bart Ehrman Now what
56:48
Bart Ehrman might dispute is that we have a first century fragment of mark And I expect that he will once this book is published.
56:55
I could be wrong The documentation may be so overwhelming But I fully expect
57:01
I fully expect that there will be papyrologists who will who will say no This fragment now that we have it now we can examine it.
57:10
It's more similar to this. It's more similar to that This is second century. This is third century blah blah blah
57:15
It goes through a process there is there's gonna be a swing one way and then a swing back the other way and Honestly in some
57:24
I Probably 20 years Before there is before the dust settles for something like this
57:33
Okay now Bart seems to be unhappy that Dan made this announcement during their debate now if Dan had
57:42
Based his argument upon it then I couldn't see the point Because then Dan says well, I can't show it to you.
57:48
Look this was my point, but I can't show it to you Okay, if that's what he was doing, I'd have a problem with that too. That's not what he did
57:55
You can tell by listening to it. That's not what he did. So he goes on to say But it is obviously very important to know the details.
58:02
How extensive is this copy? Is it a complete copy of mark? I don't think anybody I don't think anybody is even suggesting
58:12
That it's a complete copy of mark Or a fragment if it is a fragment how much text is found in it twelve chapters two verses
58:19
It obviously makes an enormous difference, but Dan would not say well Dan can't say Evidently under contractual obligation he cannot say because he's one of the editors of the book.
58:31
I think he said that openly I don't expect it to be any more extensive than a single page.
58:40
I really don't I mean things that old just You know and remember and going through Ehrman's presentation.
58:50
What did he say? Would would be the evidence that would change his mind ten Full copies of the gospel of mark within ten years or within ten days.
59:00
I'm sorry of the original dated Okay, so for him It doesn't matter
59:06
Remember even when I brought up p52 in our debate He brought up an issue of a possible textual variant even though it would be off the printed or the written part that we had
59:16
He goes on to say how was it dated Dan would not say actually Dan did say in the sense that he said that The papyrologist that dated it is a non -christian and is extremely confident of his evaluation
59:36
Who dated it Dan would not say Yeah, I didn't give the name until the book comes out has anyone corroborated a by rigorous testing
59:43
Dan would not say I'm not sure What rigorous testing would include does he is he actually at calling for carbon -14 dating or something like that?
59:53
I don't know all Dan would say is the manuscript has been discovered had been discovered It had been dated by renowned, but unnamed paleographer ie expert in ancient handwriting
01:00:03
That's how ancient manuscripts are dated by analyzing handwriting who had no theological bias I was not sure why
01:00:10
Dan made that point what does theology have to do with the dates of ancient handwriting well Oh, come on Bart If the guy was a
01:00:18
Christian You'd be bringing that up. Don't don't be naive and That it would be published by the respectable publishing house
01:00:26
EJ Brill in about a year which also also means that It will be very expensive because I have
01:00:38
Brill's compilation of Ermine's scholarly articles, and if if I recall correctly was a hundred and sixty nine dollars something along those lines
01:00:48
If it's a Brill book, it's an expensive book. That's all there is to it I have lots to say about this remarkable announcement some of which
01:00:56
I will say here in this public forum and Some of which I reserve for my membership site I'm sorry, but people who have out
01:01:07
New York Times bestsellers that are titled specifically to be as Inflammatory as possible and who are making a real good living off of that I don't really care what he has to say on his membership site
01:01:21
We've got perfect house with him for this forum. I should say first of all for you cheapskates. That's not in there.
01:01:26
Sorry that It's I'm just reading between the lines, I'm just doing a little papara papara logical analysis here
01:01:35
First of all that it struck me at the time and still strikes me now as a rather strange debating point for Dan to have made and It makes me wonder if it really was simply to score a point rather than to provide helpful information well
01:01:47
We've listened to this and I don't think that Dan was
01:01:57
Doing anything other than look if This actually illustrates, this is pretty good
01:02:04
I Read a joke in a in a book from a
01:02:10
Cambridge scholar who actually debated unbelievable it hasn't aired yet I think it airs next week or sometime soon but he told a joke in the book and The the joke was about a
01:02:22
Jewish rabbi and the Jewish rabbi broke
01:02:27
Sabbath by going out on the Sabbath and playing golf and so God and the angels are up in heaven and they're watching this rabbi as he plays golf and God says to the angels watch this.
01:02:41
I'm going to punish him for what he has done and so the rabbi rears back and he has the most perfect swing he's ever had and the ball flies off the tee and it's the longest drive he that he's ever had and It lands on the green and this is like a par -5 so it's just like just incredible and It rolls right up and right into the hole
01:03:08
Hole in one and The angels are like But but Lord how is that a punishment and the
01:03:21
Lord just smiles and goes who's he gonna tell And I thought that was
01:03:30
I thought that was great I thought that was that was perfect That's I think the position
01:03:39
Dan was in Okay Who's he gonna tell he just I mean he's he's seen this he's so excited about it and when you're
01:03:48
Dan Wallace when this is your life How could he not say something about it that's
01:03:55
I think what happened here it wasn't a debating point It was just I know something that you don't you know
01:04:04
I mean It's just the I'm sure it's that was but the excitement was was all about So In effect what he was saying was that contrary to my claim there was in fact a copy of mark from near the time of the original
01:04:22
That he had evidence that would contradict my views counteract my views well in the sense that Bart has repeatedly in At least four debates
01:04:32
I know of mine and all three with Dan has made the same point in the same way using the same
01:04:37
PowerPoint slides He always focuses on mark because mark is the least witnessed in The papyri manuscripts at least up to this point
01:04:48
John's the earliest and the most witnessed in the papyri manuscripts So okay,
01:04:55
I'll give him that one, but in effect What he is saying is I won't tell you anything about this evidence trust me on this one well
01:05:02
It was not his argument that Bart. You're wrong about this. It was his argument that this is further evidence that We have this incredible testimony, and that it is the earliest but of course ermine admits.
01:05:15
It's the earliest He goes on I really don't think a public debate is a place to raise evidence that you're not willing to talk about and That if you aren't willing to state what exactly the evidence is and you shouldn't bring it up I have evidence, but I won't tell you about it again if he bases argument about it
01:05:29
Ermin would be right, but I don't think that's what Dan was doing moreover I don't understand why there is so much secrecy about this manuscript.
01:05:36
Oh come on Bart you do too You do too you well know That your publishers will not allow you to discuss certain aspects of upcoming publishing projects until they're out
01:05:50
Don't give me that and you know that Brill especially would be Along the same lines why not tell us where it was found who found it how extensive it is who has examined it
01:06:01
What is grounds for dating it were whether his views have been independently corroborated? Is it so much is it so more people buy the book when it comes out?
01:06:07
Oh come on? Bart it's a Brill book how many people are buying Brill books
01:06:13
Come on You know you know better is this secrecy driven by a profit motive if not why the secrecy come on I'm sorry, but Bart Ehrman talking about profit
01:06:26
Please Let's not go there. Let us not go there
01:06:32
No, no, no it seems to me that Dan accomplished his desired result Someone was green with envy oh
01:06:39
I You know I hadn't thought about it, but I wonder if some of this isn't
01:06:45
Bart Ehrman going hey Hey, I should I'm the man I'm the man
01:06:52
Come on Why don't
01:06:58
I Should been the first one to told that I they should have called me up. I'm I should be in the inner loop here
01:07:07
I'm sure it's probably what it was Yeah Dan has been repeatedly asked for more information.
01:07:14
Yeah, well Dan has said from the start I can't tell you till the book comes out the books coming out.
01:07:20
Here's the publisher. Here's the outline, and that's all I can say Okay, if you don't like that fine, whatever, but I don't know if he owns the manuscript if he has seen the manuscript
01:07:31
Oh come on Bart even I know he's one of the editors. That's been in the information come on If it is his book that will contain information about the manuscript or anything else
01:07:42
Maybe maybe Bart just hasn't kept up with that, but he is one of the editors I've certainly seen that the one piece of information
01:07:47
I've been able to gather is that we are not talking about a large manuscript with lots of text on it say several chapters let
01:07:53
Alone all the gospel mark it appears to be a scrap of pyrus with parts of a few verses on it well That's exactly what you'd expect from all of these manuscripts especially from a time period
01:08:04
Like that duh the other thing I will say about this entire business Is that publishing such a scrap as a book rather than an academic journal where claims can be evaluated and reassessed by real scholars?
01:08:15
in the field who Is a very poor way to promote scholarship? Oh? Doom doom doom
01:08:25
My understanding is it's not just one scrap. It's a whole collection and the fact. It's being done with Brill Um Bart Brill happened to have published your stuff, too
01:08:39
Yeah, but it was and it was in journals first yeah, but if you want to read all your journal articles Where do you go to get it, and how much do you pay to get it mm -hmm there you go?
01:08:49
But let's say the dating is right and That now we have a scrap of mark from the first century let me be the first to say that I think that would be absolutely
01:08:57
Fantastic it would be great May many more appear Yeah, but will that impact anything that he believes probably not not his radical skepticism
01:09:09
Dan has gone on record as saying this will be a discovery as significant as one of the Dead Sea Scrolls He is wrong about that in fact if it's just a scrap as it appears to be
01:09:17
Then it probably will not change a single solitary thing in the entire field of New Testament textual criticism And that's why
01:09:23
I sit back and go you've got to be kidding me P52 didn't change any readings in the
01:09:30
Gospel of John you're saying it's irrelevant I mean that that last paragraph is
01:09:38
Why I wanted to talk about this Because that tells you really how disconnected
01:09:44
Bart Ehrman has become From really saying anything meaningful in this whole field you do realize that that years ago
01:09:52
He admitted this really isn't his field anymore. He's left it. He's he's not keeping up with this. That's not his thing he's he's left the field of his particular dissertation and he's gone into other stuff and That statement is just not true and remember this is not just one fragment.
01:10:11
There is a Lucan fragment That's as old as p52 there are other 16th. I'm sorry 2nd century 16th.
01:10:18
Yeah, right 2nd century things That's very important as well, so I want to address that I thought it was
01:10:25
I thought was rather interesting That he made that that statement now. I'm looking at my
01:10:33
Call -screen here which by the way has Stayed perfectly connected because now it's on a computer that is hardwired
01:10:42
And it's a Mac so it had nothing to do with Mac, but it's hardwired Which makes me wonder again?
01:10:49
What the issue there is but anyway? Looking at it. I have a feeling that I almost
01:10:58
Addressed this very person's email Because I think I have an email from this person and almost included it in the queue to respond to today
01:11:08
So I'm gonna find out and if so, I will get to do the proverbial two birds with one stone
01:11:14
Routine here at the end of the program, so let's find out let's talk with Mike. Hi Mike Hey, I didn't send you an email, but I guess someone else had my same question well somebody with your name in your state did
01:11:28
Well, I'm here on for work, I don't live here, okay, well all right yeah But um either way
01:11:36
I get my question is basically You know under Calvinism what would be the significance of going beyond just you know sharing the gospel message and Really getting into apologetics, and you know addressing
01:11:53
Arguments and things like that if the person you're talking to Doesn't have anything to do with the conversion process
01:12:04
I'm afraid I don't understand the question. I'm sorry. I tried to follow it, but I I didn't I didn't
01:12:09
I didn't get it Well first when you when you're talking about a reformed gospel presentation the the issue is
01:12:20
As far as I understand it when you make the gospel presentation and You try to do so in a way that's consistent with the biblical presentation of the gospel
01:12:31
That's where the issue of reformed or non reformed comes in Because if you're reformed you're not going to be putting man in the position of judging
01:12:42
God you're not going to be putting man in position of Well God has done all this for you and So out of a debt of obligation to him because he's been so nice to you.
01:12:54
You should do something nice for him you're not going to be putting him in a position of Judging God or or Finishing God's work
01:13:05
God's done all this, but it's all gonna fail unless you do this so in other words Even that term which does
01:13:12
Sort of drive me crazy Even I slip into it because it's just so ubiquitous, but sharing the gospel.
01:13:20
It's something we proclaim actually it's a powerful message and So that would be one thing but Even when when we do that as I understand it
01:13:31
Maybe this isn't what you're asking about, but it is what somebody else in Utah with your name. I think was asking about What the question that was asked in the thing was
01:13:41
I've become reformed, but I still I still sound Arminian when I preach okay, and My response to him was going to be well
01:13:50
Just keep looking at what at how the Apostles preached
01:13:55
Preach like the Apostles and that'll get rid of that problem The more we understand the nature of the gospel the more naturally it will be the more natural it will be for us to phrase it in Such a way that we're not using the most popular phraseology but we're using more accurate phraseology that communicates much more clearly to the person to whom we're speaking, so Go ahead come back at me and let me see what if any of that was relevant
01:14:25
Sort of because I mean I guess what I'm saying is under reformed theology I mean it seems to me that you know that the person to whom you are proclaiming the gospel he himself
01:14:35
Has no Like say in the matter right wouldn't you agree with that? well in as far as Coming up with his own election.
01:14:46
Yeah, but I mean if you're talking about When you say he has no say in the matter he does not determine his own election sure but God is working in that person's heart
01:15:01
Faith is a real thing I mean Conviction of sin is a real thing repentance is a real thing and so you know regeneration is a real thing we we we we do as the
01:15:12
Apostles do and we call them in to to repent and to believe and My repentance was a real repentance my belief was a real belief now we recognize the only reason
01:15:23
I was I was capable of doing that was because of The work of the
01:15:28
Spirit of God in granting me spiritual life but the the fact remains that we can't see that and therefore as the
01:15:37
Apostles did we we bring men to the position of seeing their sin and we call them to repentance and we we proclaimed them the wrath of God against sin and the fact that the only only
01:15:50
Escape from that wrath of God is in Jesus Christ and call men to to believe in him
01:15:55
So yeah, so the deciding factor though is is God right? It's not that they heard some brilliant argument.
01:16:01
They just thought I See it now. I've figured it out. Well, isn't that just good?
01:16:07
Yeah, but I'm I want to do everything possible to be the the
01:16:14
Though the sharpest tool in God's hand I want to I want to have the least amount of me and the most amount of the truth being presented this individual
01:16:28
So that the Spirit of God can use that so I see myself as a as a tool in God's hand as one that's been given a tremendous opportunity to to present a gospel message to someone and I want to that to be the smallest amount of me and the most amount of what the
01:16:47
Spirit of God would have this person to hear and so I mean that kind of thing is inconsistent that I'm in class, but I was talking with my friend
01:16:55
I said, you know in North Korea, I guess Kim Jong -il has all the power over the financial decisions
01:17:00
So it wouldn't make he's the decision makers So it wouldn't make sense for me to go to North Korea Walk up to somebody on the street and say let me give you all these great reasons for why you should change
01:17:10
North Korea's financial policy. He'd be like, but I don't you know, that'd be a waste of my time. He doesn't make that decision
01:17:16
Yeah, but I don't think you're understanding the nature of regeneration salvation takes place on an individual level and the reason that we present the gospel accurately to people is because that's the methodology that God has revealed in Scripture He uses to bring people to himself.
01:17:35
It's the it's the message that is preached It's the gospel that God has chosen the through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe
01:17:44
So the reason for our Seeking to reason with people as Paul did and the reason for our working through the scriptures is so that that message can be made clear and That's what the
01:17:59
Lord chooses to use to bring his people unto himself Sure, God could short -circuit his own revealed mechanism,
01:18:06
I suppose But why should we why should we come up with exceptions to the rule?
01:18:12
The fact is that through the proclamation of the Word of God is the normative means by which salvation takes place we have a great privilege of doing that and it should be our desire to to do so as Accurately and as clearly as possible in In any evangelical situation where where we have that opportunity.
01:18:32
So just just because we recognize that That the final choice comes from God Doesn't mean that the means to that end is not important to God and hence should be important to us
01:18:48
Yeah, but you just said that through reasoning we can make it clear Or make things more clear to that person.
01:18:55
That's my understanding that They that's not how it works. It's we don't make things clear to another person people don't say like, ah, yeah
01:19:02
I'm starting to see because of what you are teaching me. It's it's God because it's foolishness without well
01:19:08
You're ignoring you're ignoring that the fact God uses means You're just you're just completely throwing out the fact that God uses means
01:19:15
I mean I have seen situations where I presented the gospel of someone and then someone else comes along and and God uses them and their life situation and their words and their means of doing so and What they did not understand before or did not embrace before they did now
01:19:34
So God ordains the ends as well as the means and if he didn't then why why are we here?
01:19:41
Why not just as soon as a regenerate just pop us on up to heaven and just have angels do it or just sort of No, the scriptures say that God has ordained the mechanism whereby he draws his people to himself is through the proclamation of the word so They it's the first Corinthians chapter 1 through the foolishness of the message preached
01:20:04
So you've got to recognize that God has a purpose in using means or you'll never understand why as Christians we go through any of the things we go through because Even even in the
01:20:16
Christian life, why do I go through suffering? Well, because once I've gone through suffering then
01:20:22
I can be better used of God to minister his grace To someone else in the same situation
01:20:28
There are people that I can minister to because I've gone through difficulties in my life and I'll be able to speak their language there are other people for example,
01:20:36
I've I Cannot stand the taste of alcohol. I've never been drunk in my life
01:20:43
I can't understand why anybody likes it and I can't understand how anybody could ever get drunk So I'm not the best person to deal with someone who's struggling with alcoholism or drugs that matter
01:20:54
I can't stand the way drugs make me feel either. Give me half a Valium and I'm history You know, it's it's just I I can't understand those things
01:21:01
There are other people who can and God uses those means and those the people they're gonna have a more effective
01:21:09
They're gonna be used by God more effectively than me in that situation So he ordains the ends as well as the means he changes me in that process.
01:21:17
He changes them in that process Don't don't undercut simply because there is a divine decree the fact that that decree interfaces with time in a very very rich Beautiful and not simplistic way.
01:21:31
I think sometimes folks grab hold of God's sovereignty, but they only see it in a in a in a one -dimensional way and it needs to be seen as a multifaceted diamond and It interacts with time in a in a beautiful way
01:21:48
The tapestry of God's providence is something we will only truly Understand see and glorify him for in eternity to come because our knowledge is so limited at this point in time
01:22:01
But we need to recognize that that's the case. So what's going on in the evangelistic situation is yes
01:22:07
I fully recognize unless God is sovereign unless there is the decree of election unless there is a moving of the
01:22:14
Holy Spirit Then nothing I say or do is going to do anything other than by the way
01:22:21
Even if that person is not one of the elect There's God still glorified in the proclamation of his truth, by the way
01:22:28
So I don't have to be sitting going oh I wonder if this is one of the elect and that's one of the errors of hyper Calvinism is you have to look for evidences of Regeneration before you present the gospel.
01:22:37
That's why as I say every time this comes up anyone says I'm a hyper Calvinist is a liar but anyway
01:22:44
Even in that situation there is the glorification of God in the proclamation of his truth but when we are doing that I can't see who the elect are and So I call everyone to repentance and faith.
01:22:59
I Try my best to be in the hands of God The means that will be the most glorifying to him and the most effective in showing the love he's placed in my heart for the
01:23:11
The lost to be the the conduit through which that that message can come to them Would you say that?
01:23:18
Through the process of you know studying tactics to more effectively Proclaim the gospel and you know really getting into apologetics and answering objections and things like that through doing all that You can kind of become more effective at getting the
01:23:36
Holy Spirit to come down and act No, you're not being more effective. No, but I think but I think a person who has who has no concern about being an
01:23:48
Effective witness is Probably going to be a person who is who is going to be less used of God to speak to this this culture again we can't it's you're trying to solve the the the mystery of God's sovereign decree and Our activities in time and it's it's not going to happen
01:24:09
Sorry, but no one has ever figured that out We look at the scriptures the scriptures tell us that God is sovereign over these things he uses means
01:24:17
But at the same time we as individuals we recognize there have been times. We've been apathetic.
01:24:23
There have been times when we've been Because of sin our lives or other things like that. We've we've not taken opportunities or we've not done things correctly
01:24:32
We we see all those things and we don't see we can't be judged for the sovereign decree of God, but Obviously When you're talking about a witnessing situation
01:24:45
It's not a matter of I'm gonna somehow make the Holy Spirit come down with more power I simply want to glorify my
01:24:51
Lord in being an accurate witness to the truth That's all there is to it
01:24:57
Now can God use someone who stumbles through it? Yeah, he can but why should
01:25:02
I force him to if I'm a disciple? Why should I actually even think that way
01:25:08
I want to I want to be the best Disciple I can be I want to be the best witnesser
01:25:15
I can be I Can you not see that is that is that you're not clear
01:25:21
Yeah, I don't think that's really an answer the question I mean, don't you think that there's some people who like on average are consistently?
01:25:30
more effective at Presenting the gospel message Well, yeah, we all have different gifts
01:25:38
Yeah, but I mean, so they're more effective By I mean, how are they like they're getting
01:25:43
God to act more than the guy who's not effective No, I I don't think anyone gets
01:25:49
God to act We are given different gifts. I'm sorry ends and means that's that's all
01:25:56
I could say You're missing the means part and I don't know how it's I can I can express it other than the way
01:26:02
I already have He uses means and that means Includes the the very way that he has created us but that also means that we as individuals if we seek to glorify
01:26:13
God and we seek to be good servants of Christ will seek to improve to know his word better to memorize scripture to to be available in that way and That's that's the the best
01:26:26
I can do for you Mike. Sorry. Okay. All right. Thanks for your call. All right. God bless Okay, like I said next
01:26:35
Week what we're gonna do because I'm heading to Boston is on Tuesday we'll do a
01:26:45
Mega DL so we'll get we'll still have two hours and I'm sure that's a
01:26:50
Ralph will go. Oh just a mega DL But we'll get a mega DL in on Tuesday and that way you can
01:27:00
Well, then we'll be back next week Lord willing and in fact, I'm not sure when I go over to California But anyways, we'll just let you know we the easiest way the fastest way to know what the schedule is gonna be like is following me on Twitter because I do
01:27:13
Get to that faster than I do opening up blogging software and going on the web and putting something on me on the blog itself, but and the
01:27:21
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01:27:26
Facebook page. That's right. So you need to subscribe To the Facebook page you are almost at 10 grand you passed 9 ,000 yesterday
01:27:37
Oh good 9 ,000 subscribers on Facebook, and I don't know remember how many followers we have on on Twitter, but that's the best way to find out and So that's what we'll be doing pray for our our time
01:27:50
Next weekend in Boston certainly hoping that the no -compromise video will be very helpful to people especially in the aftermath of Elephant room 2 and all the things that go along with it.
01:28:04
Thanks for listening to the vine line today. We'll see you next week We need a new reformation
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