August 26, 2022 Show with Robert M. Copeland on “A Candle Against the Dark: Reformed Presbyterians & the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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on this 26th day of August 2022.

When I saw the book we are going to discuss today, advertised by

Crown and Covenant Publications, I was immediately fascinated by

the idea of conducting an interview on this.

I have spoken about the Reformed Presbyterian Church denomination's

history with being one of the very first evangelical

and Reformed denominations in the United States to vociferously and

adamantly oppose the institution of slavery in the 19th century.

And so when I knew that Crown and Covenant Publications had brought this book

into print, written by my guest today, I knew that I had to pursue them for an

interview and I'm so delighted that that quickly came to fruition and we have on our program

today, for the very first time, Robert M. Copeland, author and chairman of the music

department at Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania.

And we are addressing his book, A Candle Against the Dark, Reformed Presbyterians and

the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,

Bob Copeland.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here, Chris.

Yeah, I'm thrilled that you're here.

And tell us something about Geneva College in Beaver Falls, where you are the

chairman of the music department.

Well...

Oh, okay.

You're still listed on many current websites as the chairman.

Well, yes...

Okay, I'll just introduce you the next time as former, that's all.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

And I was for a good long time.

I taught 31 years altogether.

Well, let's do something now, before we get into the contents of your

book, which will be the primary percentage of our

discussion today.

We have a tradition here, whenever we have a first -time guest on the program, that they give

a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the kind of religious atmosphere,

if any, in which they were raised and any kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up

in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.

And I would love to hear your story.

Yeah, I'm glad to share that.

Yes.

Well, praise God for that testimony.

And how does someone who has spent perhaps the majority of

your life in the career of music

get into his head, hey, you know something, I want to write a book about

the history of the Reformed Presbyterian Church denomination in regard to their

struggle against slavery in the United States.

How did this, perhaps even awareness of this fact, come to your attention,

and when did you begin such a passion that you began to research it more

seriously in depth and come to the place where you said, I've got to write a book about it?

Well, I've

always

been

the

other

one.

Now, how far back in history can you document that

the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America denomination

began to, in unison, in harmony, speak

out against this atrocity called chattel slavery that

had existed in our country for centuries until the

Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil War and so on?

And also, not only how far back, but was there any division over

this issue?

Were there people who did not oppose slavery in this denomination?

Because sadly, I am a Reformed Baptist, and I know that

our Reformed heritage in the United States, both amongst the Baptists and the

Presbyterians, is mixed with the stain of those

that did strongly believe and support the institution, or

as I would call it, the crime of slavery.

So how far back, and was it always a unified protest?

Well,

yes.

Now, I don't know if you've completed your thought there, but I wanted to ask you

about, to start with, or should I say where I should have started, actually, possibly.

The origins of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America,

I know that its heritage existed primarily in Scotland,

and there are churches globally.

In fact, I had the great privilege of hearing in person Ted

Donnelly, who is from Ireland, preach here in the United States

years ago at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, where my friend Bill Shishko once

pastored, now pastoring a church in Comack, Long Island.

But I remember just being so utterly blessed by Ted Donnelly's preaching, so powerful.

But I'm not an expert on the denomination.

I know that they are called the Covenanters, and I know that they are not only

exclusive psalm singers, but they also sing psalms exclusively a

cappella, without musical instrumentation, in worship.

And I know that they have in common with the Bible Presbyterian Church denomination,

at least here in the United States, a prohibition against the consumption of alcohol,

and maybe you can correct me or update me on that.

And other than that, all I know about them is that they are a

conservative and biblically faithful denomination, with those

unique factors amongst Presbyterians that I just mentioned.

Perhaps you could give us some more about the history of the Reformed Presbyterians,

the Covenanters, and when they really began to have a significant presence

here, through immigration here in the United States.

Yes, the Scottish...

Was this primarily by the Anglicans?

Yes, the

Roman Catholic Church

and the Anglican Church of Scotland, which was

officially Presbyterian.

It was a nasty period of time in which I would have to say Christian.

Yes, I have heard that from my very dear friend, Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III,

and he found out when someone among the

progeny of a Reformed Presbyterian slave down south...

Remember, folks, these are white folks who were slaves,

and this, I believe it was a woman, I'm almost certain, told Joe about her

ancestry being included among the white slaves

here in America.

And this was mind -blowing.

This is something that the vast majority of people know nothing about, and, of course,

the vast majority of people don't know that there were even some

wealthy black slaveholders.

Even the very, very liberal Dave Chappelle, and I'm not saying this because I recommend

his comedy to our listeners, he's a very profane and blasphemous person, but even he admitted

that he was aware that there were black slave owners here in America.

But, if you could continue, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

So, I'm assuming that

this has

a lot to do with an empathy, perhaps,.

For the black slaves, and was a compelling force

for the Reformed Presbyterians, the Covenanters, to oppose such a wicked institution.

I think you're right.

I think that's exactly...

Yes, and we're going to go to our first break right now, and if anybody has a question

for Bob Copeland on this fascinating subject, to repeat, it is

The Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States, which is the

subtitle for his beautiful book, Against the Dark, published by

Crown Covenant Publications, a beautiful hardback.

I am really excited about continuing to read this treasure

trove of information.

But, if you have a question of your own for Bob Copeland, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Bob Copeland, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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We are now back with Bob Copeland.

We are discussing his fascinating book, Candle Against the Dark,

Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States.

And our email address, if you have a question of your own, is chrisarnzen at gmail

.com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

We have a listener named Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

And let's see, I've been doing this a lot lately.

I totally lose the emails that are being

sent in, and now I've got it.

Grady says, Greetings, brothers.

My home county in North Carolina was a part of the Underground Railroad,

according to an article by our county historian.

We also had the highest number of deserters from the Confederacy.

Part of this was because we had a large population of Quakers, and we were

also a Republican stronghold that

did not support secession from the Union.

Did you find Reformed Presbyterians that also helped and supported the Underground Railroad?

Yes,

they

were

very

obedient.

Still having very serious theological differences with the Quakers, obviously.

Yes.

But they could still have harmony over this institution that was quite

evil, quite in rebellion against the God -breathed scriptures that

many slaveholders and those who sold slaves claimed

to cherish and believe in and govern their lives by.

But it is just a dark stain on the nation in which we live.

Absolutely.

Thank you, Grady.

And guess what?

If you give us your full mailing address in Asheboro, North Carolina, Crown Covenant Publications has

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copies of this book, A Candle Against the Dark.

And it's a beautiful hardback retailing for $27, so you're going to get that absolutely free.

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Reform Presbyterians, and the struggle against slavery in the United States.

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at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

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He who never quotes will never be quoted.

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Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before we return to Bob Copeland and our interview today, we just have a couple of very important announcements

to make.

If you really love this show, folks, and you don't want it to disappear, I'm urging you please go to

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And we need your donations more than ever because ever since the COVID pandemic,

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demonstrated by this government here in the United States, our giving, the

giving from our audience, that is, to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, has gone way, way down.

We really need your help, folks.

If you love this show, between 30 ,000 and 40 ,000 people download the

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Also, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, Bible -believing church, no matter where you live in the

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So if you are in that predicament, send me an email to chrisarmsen at gmail .com,

and put I need church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Bob Copeland on our

conversation today, on the subject we are addressing, which is his book, gorgeous new

book, A Candle Against the Dark, Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle

Against Slavery in the United States.

We have another listener, we have Thomas in West Islip, Long Island, New

York, who wants to know, were the other Presbyterian denominations,

especially in the South, coming down hard on the Reformed Presbyterians due to

their prohibition of slavery?

Oh,

okay.

And

back

then,

there

was

a lot more

in

common

with

the

Reformed

Presbyterian

Church

of

North

America.

And other Presbyterians.

I have found out something quite fascinating after reading a book that I

highly recommend to anybody that addresses the issue of

musical instrumentation in worship.

I happen to agree with my Reformed Presbyterian brethren on exclusive a cappella worship,

although I'm not sectarian over it.

I don't look down upon people who use musical instruments, I just prefer it as a more biblical practice, to

be a cappella.

And I have interviewed John Price, a Reformed Baptist in Rochester, who is one of the very few

Reformed Baptist pastors in this day and age who practices exclusively a cappella worship

in this congregation.

He does not practice exclusive psalmody, he has hymn singing, just as

Charles Spurgeon was an exclusive a cappella worship

proponent, but he did not exclude hymns.

He was not an exclusive psalmist.

By the way, if you want to look up this three -part series on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, just type in John

Price in the three interviews.

But I found out that, amazingly, the vast majority of Protestantism

for nearly 2 ,000 years, well, of course, Protestantism would have only started

as far as the Reformation in the 16th century, but the vast majority of the

church I met practiced exclusive a cappella worship,

and the majority of the church also, as far as the Protestant Reformation and their heirs,

practiced exclusive psalmody as well, just like the Reformed Presbyterians do.

And the first Protestant church in the United States to

use a musical instrument in the worship service was a Presbyterian church in the 19th century.

And I have to make it clear that the Lutherans and Anglicans have always

used musical instruments.

They were the, for lack of a better term, the oddballs

who used musical instruments.

I just thought I'd throw that in there because that means there must have been a lot more harmony, because that's one of the things that really

stands out as far as the Covenanters.

By the way, Tom in West Islip, I know another Tom in West Islip, this is not the same

Tom, you have won a free copy of this beautiful hardback book,

A Candle Against the Dark, Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States,

by my guest Bob Copeland, so make sure you give us your full mailing address, and CVBBS .com will ship that

out to you free of charge, and we thank Crown and Covenant Publications once again for providing us a limited number

of these books.

We have a listener

in Hartsdale, New York, Bobby, and Bobby says,

the primary text of scripture of which I am

aware that would clearly be a prohibition of slavery

is Exodus chapter 21, verse 16, and that

text reads, one who kidnaps someone,

whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall certainly be put to death,

and obviously those that were sold into slavery were at

one point kidnapped.

How do you, if you know this, did the opponents of the

Reformed Presbyterians who claim to defend slavery get past that

text, if you are aware of any argumentation, and were there any other biblical

texts used by the abolitionist Reformed Presbyterians to further bolster their argument against

slavery?

Right, and of course the slavery, the form of slavery

that existed in biblical times

didn't resemble the kind of slavery that existed in Europe and

in North America, I mean, there is no allowance in the

scriptures to treat another human as an animal, there is no

allowance for breaking up marriages, which happened often,

and the grotesque mistreatment of the slaves that frequently occurred, not by every

slave owner.

I know it is very politically incorrect to even mention that there were slave owners that

were kind to them, and even, you know, allowed them to purchase their freedom and all

kinds of things, and never, when I say those things, I'm never condoning the

institution itself, but a lot of people just inherited the situation that had existed for centuries already.

But, you know, it's like a cult that

believes that we should perpetuate polygamy,

because there were some of the patriarchs of the old covenant who were polygamists, trying to use the

Bible to put a seal of approval on a wicked practice,

and, of course, liberals and those who hate the scriptures constantly throw that up, that's like

the first thing that they throw up typically is, oh, the Bible supported slavery, and they don't really know what they're talking about, just because

a word is being used that is the same for both

the kind of slavery that existed in the scriptures with prisoners of war, with people

who sold themselves into slavery because they couldn't pay off debts, and other things, the

Bible never gives an allowance for chattel slavery, and for treating

people in an inhumane way, so.

What did you mean in your book, to what were you referring as the sum of all...

Sure, we have an anonymous listener, and the

anonymous listener, there are pastors and other Christians who are very

close with me, who believe that we today should make no use

of learned and brilliant men of the past who were theologians,

and wrote voluminously, and very much were a benefit to the

church in regard to theology, but at the same time were guilty of

supporting slavery.

Does your guest believe that we should totally eliminate these men from our libraries and

not use them to teach the truth, or should we just recognize that all men

are sinners, and we have to maintain what is

good about their lives, especially if they were teachers of great value,

just recognizing the very fact that not everything they taught and believed and

practiced was biblical, and in fact was sin, because

every human, while still alive on this earth, is guilty of some sins

or others.

And if these leftists

are going

to

be logically consistent,.

They're going to want to erase all

great thinkers and scholars and theologians and

people that they even consider to be heroes of history.

They're eventually going to, if they're going to be logically consistent, erase anyone from

prior to the mid -20th century from

our hearing and reading and from our libraries and from our

monuments over the homosexuality issue, because there are virtually no

people other than villainous, closeted

individuals prior to the 20th century.

I'm talking about people of note who were in favor of those wicked acts

of homosexuality.

So what are you going to do with those people?

Right.

I mean, you could go on and on and on.

And even the view of many of the heroes

that liberals uphold did not have, when you're talking about people in the

19th century and earlier, did not have the same view of the roles of women.

I mean, you could go on and on and on about, if they're going to be consistent, they're only going to

be supporting the preservation of

literature and of giving honor to people that lived in the 20th century and

21st.

We have to go to our final break right now, and if you have a question, I would strongly urge you to submit it

very quickly, because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you

live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Oh, and by the way, Anonymous, email me your full name and your full mailing

address, because you have also won a free copy of this beautiful book, A Candle Against the Dark,

by my guest Bob Copeland, and I believe I forgot to tell that to Bobby in Hartsdale,

New York as well.

You have also won a free copy by virtue of submitting questions today.

So make sure we have your addresses, and don't go away.

We'll be right back.

James

White of Alpha and Omega Ministries

here,.

Excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to

Washington, D .C. for the G3 Ministries regional conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible.

The conference will be held Thursday, September 15th, through Saturday, September 17th.

I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard

Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the Just Thinking podcast.

To register, visit g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and click on Events.

Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible, nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.

So join me and Chris Arnson, September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C., for the G3

Ministries regional conference.

Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org, that's g3min .org.

Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

Such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show

he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe

Moorcraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe

Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism.

Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant

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Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone,

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Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch

.com.

That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

Or call 678 -954 -7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, tell them Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland,

sent you.

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We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are forever grateful for the generous financial support

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Call 717 -258 -4688 today.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005.

The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small

group study?

So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's Word in those

smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the Word of God and is

built upon sound doctrine.

Much less, it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible.

Hi there, my name is Jordan Tew and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

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Here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, praise God for the generous monthly financial support

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and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and

in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpens Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can click support.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

And welcome back, folks.

Don't forget, if you are a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio

Free Pastors Luncheon on Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. in Loisville,

Pennsylvania, featuring world -renowned apologist Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries as our

keynote speaker.

Everything is free at this event, including a lot of free books that very generous

publishers have donated so that the men in attendance can get these books free.

There is nothing for sale at these luncheons.

Going back to the 1990s when my precious late wife first launched the

luncheons, and I will continue to conduct them according to her wishes as

long as the Lord enables me to continue conducting these events.

So if you want to attend, if you're a man in ministry leadership, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put

Pastors Luncheon in the subject line.

We are now back with our guest, Bob Copeland.

And before I go to any more listener questions, Bob, if you could, I want you to make sure

that you have a few minutes to summarize things that you want to have etched in the hearts and minds

of our listeners regarding this book, perhaps things that we have not yet addressed.

Yeah,

and

we

are

supposed

to

give

honor to

whom

honor

is due.

And perhaps I can even more comfortably say, being outside of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North

America denomination, that we should take note of this.

Because it is a remarkable aspect of history,

and I know of no other theologically sound

denomination that was so unanimously opposed to slavery.

The Quakers are very well known for being very opposed to slavery, but they are

surely a very aberrant group.

I'm not saying that everything about the Quakers and their history is heretical, but they are surely

not what you and I would call within the pale of orthodoxy in regard to

the scriptures.

And I don't know of any other Reformed body, especially, that was

unanimously—I'm not saying that there were no Reformed people or other Christians that were abolitionists.

I'm just saying that it seems to be unique amongst the Reformed Presbyterians that they were

unanimously or very close to unanimously opposed to this wickedness.

We have

time

for one more

listener

question,

another

anonymous.

A listener who says, I'm very tired of the silence over the heresies

of the woke movement, even by the congregation to which I belong.

And I believe that what you have written needs to be known because one

of the greatest lies of the woke movement is that all white people are

inherently racist and that black people are

impossible to become racist.

And these are two lies from the pit of hell.

This sin of racism and bigotry is universal amongst

all humans by nature, as well as other sins.

And therefore, we have to point out the great heroes of this nation and the world

who even risked their lives and gave their lives in the Civil War who condemned this practice.

What's your response to this?

It wasn't a question, basically a very articulate statement.

Well, we're out of time, and I really enjoyed our conversation immensely, brother.

I look forward to you coming back on the program.

I want to urge everyone who did not get the opportunity to win

one of the free copies we are giving out today of this book, A Candle Against the Dark,

Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States.

I urge you to go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, since they are a sponsor of the show, cvbbs .com,

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com, and ask for

the Crown and Covenant Publications book, A Candle Against the Dark, by

our guest today, Robert M. Copeland.

And I urge you to purchase it and even purchase many copies for gifts and for

those you love.

In fact, even if you've won a copy, buy more copies for those that you

love.

I want to thank you so much again.

I look forward to your return, Bob.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

And by the way, the last anonymous listener, you've won the last copy, so send us your full name and email

address to chrisarnsen at gmail .com so that cvbbs .com can ship that out to you.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.