August 26, 2022 Show with Robert M. Copeland on “A Candle Against the Dark: Reformed Presbyterians & the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday. On this 26th day of August, 2022, when

I saw the book we are going to discuss today advertised by Crown and Covenant Publications, I was immediately fascinated by the idea of conducting an interview on this.

I have spoken about the Reformed Presbyterian Church denomination's history with being one of the very first evangelical and Reformed denominations in the

United States to vociferously and adamantly oppose the institution of slavery in the 19th century, and so when

I knew that Crown and Covenant Publications had brought this book into print, written by my guest today,

I knew that I had to pursue them for an interview, and I'm so delighted that that quickly came to fruition, and we have on our program today, for the very first time,

Robert M. Copeland, author and chairman of the music department at Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, and we are addressing his book,

A Candle Against the Dark, Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Bob Copeland.

Thank you, I'm glad to be here, Chris. Yeah, I'm thrilled that you're here, and tell us something about Geneva College in Beaver Falls, where you are the chairman of the music department.

Well, a little bit of a correction, first of all, I'm not the chairman of the music department anymore,

I was for 19 years, but then turned that over, and then

I retired from the college entirely in 2012, I believe it was.

Oh, okay, you're still listed on many current websites as the chairman. Well, yes, well, let's not go into that.

Okay, I'll just introduce you the next time as former, that's all. Yeah, yeah, that's right, and I was for a good long time,

I taught 31 years all together at Geneva, and I had taught 10 years before that at Mid -American

Nazarene University in Kansas, so that was my teaching career.

Well, let's do something now, before we get into the contents of your book, which will be the primary percentage of our discussion today.

We have a tradition here, whenever we have a first -time guest on the program, that they give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised, and any kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them, and I would love to hear your story.

Yeah, I'm glad to share that. I was raised in a Christian home, in a

Reformed Presbyterian church, in fact, in Nebraska, and it was a very warm, supportive

Christian environment in which I grew up, the same community in which my mother and her father had grown up.

So, I grew up knowing the facts of the Bible and the salvation offered through Jesus Christ, but I thought at that point that it was primarily a matter of intellectual assent to a series of facts, propositions, and so I joined the church as a

Communicant member when I was about 11 or 12, but it was still a matter of just knowing the right answer to the right questions.

Then the Lord brought me to Geneva College as a freshman, and although that would not have been my first choice to come to college, but that's where the

Lord brought me because He knew He had plans for me. And when

I was a freshman in college at Geneva, I had a crisis in my life, in my faith, and through that, the

Lord suddenly made Himself real to me, and I realized that, hey, this is a personal

God. Jesus knows about me. And so it was at that point that I really became soundly converted, realizing that what mattered was not assent to doctrines, but a relationship with Jesus Christ.

And so things have unfolded from there, and the

Lord brought me through college, and then I was drafted into the Army, served two years there, mostly at Fort Benning, Georgia, and then to graduate school at the

University, and from there to teaching in Kansas City and here at Geneva. So I've seen the

Lord's leading in my career in so many ways, and He brought me through, and He made it plain to me in my heart that He wanted me to be teaching at Geneva and directing the choir, the

Genevans, in developing and maintaining a

Christian witness in choral concert music. And so that was my emphasis for a long time in my teaching, was to show the glory of God through choral music, and especially since the

Reformed Presbyterian Church sings in worship, sings psalms exclusively, it was through artistic settings of the psalms that I tried to represent the majesty and the glory of God and the beauty of a relationship with Him.

To audiences that were, you know, mixed, a lot of Christians, but I think a lot of non -Christians heard the gospel message in that way.

So, anyway, I'm not sure that that qualifies as your... Yes! ...I said tour.

Well, praise God for that testimony, and how does someone who has spent perhaps the majority of your life in the career of music get into his head, hey, you know something?

I want to write a book about the history of the

Reformed Presbyterian Church denomination in regard to their struggle against slavery in the

United States. How did this, perhaps even awareness of this fact, come to your attention, and when did you begin such a passion that you began to research it more seriously in depth and come to the place where you said,

I've got to write a book about it? Well, I've always been interested in history, and just in general history, but also specifically in Christian history, and then in the history of the denomination, the

Reformed Presbyterian Church. Then when I, well, I should say

I was vaguely aware that we knew people in our church, in our family connections, who had served in the, particularly in the

Union Army in the Civil War. My grandfather had about three uncles who had been in the war, and various other relatives of my wife now has, the one,

I mean, the woman who is now my wife, had some relatives, direct ancestors who fought in the war.

And so there were stories, you know, in the families about this.

So I often wondered, kind of in the back of my mind, whether, you know, the

Reformed Presbyterians had a greater involvement, a greater presence in the war than I knew.

Then when I was at Geneva, I became acquainted with my girlfriend's uncle,

Dr. D. Ray Wilcox, and he had written,

I discovered, his master's thesis on the Reformed Presbyterians in the

University of Northern Colorado in Greeley. And so he was very interested and very knowledgeable about the subject of Covenanters, or Reformed Presbyterians, in that war.

So I had many conversations with him about that, and that's how I got more deeply involved in the exploration of this subject.

And then he, I should say, he had written this thesis, and it was a remarkable piece of scholarship for a master's thesis.

He had been encouraged to publish it, but he always insisted, of course, that a thesis is not a book, and so he would need to revise it.

But he was a pastor and then a college professor, had five children, and just never found time to go back and finish it.

So after his death in 1983, his widow, my wife's aunt, asked me if I would be willing to work on it and bring it up to date and publish it.

And I said, yes, that would be an honor. Well, then that, you know, one thing led to another and languished in time.

Being a good Presbyterian, I believed in procrastination. And so anyway, it took a long time to get it all put together and brought up to date.

And so that's why it's 70 years, some years, after he originally wrote it.

So his name is listed on the title page and cited frequently in the footnotes and so on, because he's really the origin of this as an academic study.

So then I brought it up to date with new interpretations, new facts, newly discovered documents, and so on.

And that's how we got to the book in its present form. Now, how far back in history can you document that the

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America denomination began to, in unison, in harmony, speak out against this atrocity called chattel slavery that had existed in our country for centuries until the

Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil War and so on? And also, not only how far back, but was there any division over this issue?

Were there people who did not oppose slavery in this denomination? Because sadly,

I am a Reformed Baptist, and I know that our Reformed heritage in the

United States, both amongst the Baptists and the Presbyterians, is mixed with the stain of those that did strongly believe and support the institution, or as I would call it, the crime of slavery.

So how far back, and was it always a unified protest?

Well, it's hard to put a date on when the mindset began to develop.

The Church's first formal action about it was in 1800.

But of course, there had been before that, as there was in much of the

English -speaking world at that time, a fair amount of, of course,

I think, reservation hesitation about slavery. People were debating whether or not it was the right thing to do and whether it was biblical or not.

But generally not taking action, there were some denominations that passed resolutions before 1800, discouraging their members from slaveholding, but they didn't enforce it.

The Presbyterian Church, for instance, did not enforce a prohibition against slavery.

It was the Reformed Presbyterians in 1800 who first took a really decisive stand against slavery, the belief that it was unbiblical and un -Christian, contrary to the

Word of God. And once having decided that, they never looked back.

They remained very consistent in their opposition. Was there opposition within the denomination?

Yes, some informally. We had five congregations in South Carolina at that point, and there were four or five people,

I think four people they say, in those congregations who refused to release their slaves and consequently were excommunicated from the church.

And then there was some hesitation in one of the

New York congregations up in Coldenham, up the

Hudson River, but that was resolved.

The two people that had owned slaves there freed their slaves, and there were no further instances of slave -owning in the

Reformed Presbyterian Church anywhere after 1802. There was one minister in South Carolina who had been, actually been suspended twice for alcoholism, and he had owned a slave.

He was disciplined for having sold his slave rather than setting him free.

And so between the alcoholism, but especially for selling his slave, he was excommunicated and defrocked and everything removed from the church.

Now, I don't know if you've completed your thought there, but I wanted to ask you about, to start with, or should

I say where I should have started actually, possibly, the origins of the

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. I know that its heritage existed primarily in Scotland, and there are churches globally.

In fact, I had the great privilege of hearing in person

Ted Donnelly, who is from Ireland, preach here in the

United States years ago at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, where my friend

Bill Shishko once pastored, now pastoring a church in Comac, Long Island.

But I remember just being so utterly blessed by Ted Donnelly's preaching, so powerful.

But I'm not an expert on the denomination. I know that they are called the

Covenanters, and I know that they are not only exclusive psalm singers, but they also sing psalms exclusively a cappella without musical instrumentation in worship.

And I know that they have in common with the Bible Presbyterian Church denomination, at least here in the

United States, a prohibition against the consumption of alcohol, and maybe you can correct me or update me on that.

And other than that, all I know about them is that they are a conservative and biblically faithful denomination with those unique factors amongst

Presbyterians that I just mentioned. Perhaps you could give us some more about the history of the

Reformed Presbyterians, the Covenanters, and when they really began to have a significant presence here through immigration here in the

United States. Yes, you're right. In the Scottish heritage, the

Covenanting movement was part of the Protestant Reformation in Scotland, and one of the traditions of the legal situation in Scotland before that had been the use of covenants or bonds between nobles, and they would covenant together to accomplish some political purpose and to cover each other against reprisals or consequences.

So those were entirely secular covenants. Then at the time of the

Reformation, it became common for Scottish people to adopt that custom and covenant together to obey

God and to reform the church according to what they believed was the biblical pattern.

And to defend each other against any foes of reform.

So from, I don't know, 1550 or so, there's an increasing number of those.

And in the 17th century, there were a couple of major developments, the

Scottish National Covenant in 1638, which was signed by people from all several classes in Scotland.

And then in 1643, the Solemn League and Covenant, which was between Scotland and England, the

Puritans in England. Now whether it was wise for the covenanters of Scotland to tie themselves in with Cromwell and the

Puritan revolution in England, the wisdom of that is,

I guess I would say, still up in the air. But nevertheless, that's what the conservative side of the

Presbyterian movement in Scotland continued to adhere to, to uphold those.

Well, then there was a long period of government opposition and then outright persecution.

And during that period, many fell away, is a judgmental term, but they did depart from the belief in and practice of covenanting.

And so gradually it became a smaller and smaller part of the

Church of Scotland that maintained those covenants and resisted the efforts of the kings of Scotland to control the

Church. And that was really the burning issue at that point.

From roughly 1660 to 1685, there was violent persecution.

And men, women, and children were hunted down and killed without process of law.

Was this primarily by the Anglicans? No, this was primarily, well, yes, it was

Anglicans. First of all, it had been Roman Catholics. And there was always this continuing tension in Scotland between the

Roman Catholic Church and the Anglicans and the

Church of Scotland, which was officially Presbyterian. And so it was a nasty period of time, a period of time in which

I would have to say Christianity did not show itself to best advantage.

It was just, it was a bloody time. It was during that period that some of the covenanters who were captured in battle or otherwise arrested and sentenced were sentenced to transportation, that is, to be sent to North America or Barbados, the

West Indies, as slaves. And so the first Reformed Presbyterians, although they weren't called it then, who came to what's now the

United States, came as slaves or indentured servants. Yes, I have heard that from my very dear friend,

Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III, and he found out when the, someone among the progeny of a

Reformed Presbyterian slave down south. Remember, folks, these are white folks who were slaves, and this,

I believe it was a woman, I'm almost certain, told Joe about her ancestry being included among the white slaves here in America.

And this was mind -blowing. This is something that the vast majority of people know nothing about, and, of course, the vast majority of people don't know that there were even some wealthy black slaveholders.

Even the very, very liberal Dave Chappelle, and I'm not saying this because I recommend his comedy to our listeners, he's a very profane and blasphemous person, but even he admitted that he was aware that there were black slave owners here in America.

But if you could continue, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Well, I might add parenthetically to that, too, there were also a number of Native Americans who owned black slaves in that period, that is, in the 17th, 18th centuries.

So I'm assuming that this has a lot to do with an empathy, perhaps, for the black slaves and was a compelling force for the

Reformed Presbyterians, the Covenanters, to oppose such a wicked institution.

I think you're right. I think that's exactly right. That had a lot to do with it.

Yes, and we're going to go to our first break right now, and if anybody has a question for Bob Copeland on this fascinating subject, to repeat, it is

The Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States, which is the subtitle for his beautiful book

Against the Dark, published by Crown & Covenant Publications, a beautiful hardback.

I am really excited about continuing to read this treasure trove of information.

But if you have a question of your own for Bob Copeland, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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We are now back with Bob Copeland. We are discussing his fascinating book, Candle Against the

Dark, Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States. And our email address, if you have a question of your own, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

We have a listener named Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. And let's see,

I've been doing this a lot lately. I totally lose the emails that are being sent in, and now

I've got it. Grady says, greetings, brothers.

My home county in North Carolina was a part of the Underground Railroad, according to an article by our county historian.

We also had the highest number of deserters from the Confederacy. Part of this was because we had a large population of Quakers, and we were also a

Republican stronghold that did not support secession from the

Union. Did you find Reformed Presbyterians that also helped and supported the Underground Railroad?

Yes, there were a number of Reformed Presbyterians who participated in the

Underground Railroad activities. There were some in New England and New York.

There were some in the larger cities, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh, Cincinnati.

But there were also a lot of people in the small congregations and small towns and rural congregations who participated as well.

And that's one of the, I think, fascinating chapters in the book about the role of Reformed Presbyterians in that.

And there are still families in the Church whose ancestors participated actively in the

Underground Railroad activities. So, yes, Reformed Presbyterians were front and center in that.

And remember, too, that that was civil disobedience. What they were doing in the

Underground Railroad was illegal as all get out. And there were consequences.

Some people who participated in the Underground Railroad, when they were caught or if they were caught, were not only fined heavily but might even be killed for their civil disobedience.

So we have this kind of folklore about conservative

Presbyterians. We don't often think of conservative Presbyterian types as being prone to civil disobedience, but it was because they saw it as a matter of sin, a matter of obedience to God rather than to man, and the responsibility then to help the people who were trying to escape that godless system of slavery.

So, yes, there were a lot of Reformed Presbyterians all the way to Illinois and Iowa who were involved.

And we're very much aware of the sympathy of the Quakers to that as well.

But still having very serious theological differences with the Quakers, obviously.

Oh, yes, yes, that's right. But they could still have harmony over this institution that was quite evil, quite in rebellion against the

God -breathed scriptures that many slaveholders and those who sold slaves claimed to cherish and believe in and govern their lives by.

But it is just a dark stain on the nation in which we live.

Absolutely. Thank you, Grady. And guess what? If you give us your full mailing address in Asheboro, North Carolina, Crown and Covenant Publications has been generous enough to provide for us a limited number of copies of this book,

A Candle Against the Dark. And it's a beautiful hardback retailing for $27.

So you're going to get that absolutely free, not only compliments of Crown and Covenant Publications, but thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who will be shipping it out to you.

That's cvbbs .com. And so make sure you get us your full mailing address so that you can receive that in the mail as soon as possible.

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Dark, the Reform Presbyterians, and the struggle against slavery in the

United States. Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Before we return to Bob Copeland and our interview today we just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

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Also, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring Bible -believing church, no matter where you live in the world,

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So if you are in that predicament, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Bob Copeland on our conversation today on the subject we are addressing, which is his book, gorgeous new book,

A Candle Against the Dark, Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the

United States. We have another listener. We have

Thomas in West Islip, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, were the other

Presbyterian denominations, especially in the South, coming down hard on the

Reformed Presbyterians due to their prohibition of slavery? That's a good question that I'm not entirely comfortable answering.

I don't know of any denominational action against us.

I think chances are the major Presbyterian bodies were scarcely aware of the existence of the

Reformed Presbyterians. Face it, it's a small denomination, a tiny denomination that was punching above its weight the whole struggle.

We didn't have any congregations in the South at all by the time of the war.

You see, after our people freed their slaves, in South Carolina, I mentioned there was quite a colony of congregations there around 1800.

But then after our people freed their slaves, they found it was impossible for social elements to stay where they were.

So they all moved away by 1828, 1830.

There were no Reformed Presbyterians left in South Carolina. There were a few in Tennessee for a while, but the ones from South Carolina all moved up to southern

Illinois, southern Indiana primarily, and were living up there at the time of the war.

So there were no Reformed Presbyterians actually living in the

Confederacy. Now the major Presbyterian preachers and theologians had lots to say about Yankees who tried to interfere with their peculiar institution down there, but as far as I know, they didn't single out the

Reformed Presbyterian Church specifically for condemnation. Part of the general condemnation of northern abolition.

And back then, there was a lot more in common with the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and other

Presbyterians. I have found out something quite fascinating after reading a book that I highly recommend to anybody that addresses the issue of musical instrumentation in worship.

I happen to agree with my Reformed Presbyterian brethrens on exclusive acapella worship, although I'm not sectarian over it.

I don't look down upon people who use musical instruments. I just prefer it as a more biblical practice to be acapella.

And I have interviewed John Price, a Reformed Baptist in Rochester who is one of the very few

Reformed Baptist pastors in this day and age who practices exclusively acapella worship in this congregation.

He does not practice exclusive psalmody. He has hymn singing, just as Charles Spurgeon was an exclusive acapella worship proponent.

But he did not exclude hymns. He was not an exclusive psalmist.

But while reading, and by the way, if you want to look up this three -part series on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, just type in John Price in the three interviews.

But I found out that, amazingly, the vast majority of Protestantism for nearly 2 ,000 years, well, of course,

Protestantism would have only started as far as the Reformation in the 16th century.

But the vast majority of the church I met practiced exclusive acapella worship, and the majority of the church also, as far as the

Protestant Reformation and their heirs, practiced exclusive psalmody as well, just like the

Reformed Presbyterians do. And the first Protestant church in the

United States to use a musical instrument in the worship service was a

Presbyterian church in the 19th century. And I have to make it clear that the Lutherans and Anglicans have always used musical instruments.

They were the, for lack of a better term, the oddballs who used musical instruments.

I just thought I'd throw that in there because that means there must have been a lot more harmony because that's one of the things that really stands out as far as the

Covenanters. By the way, Tom in West Islet, I know another Tom in West Islet.

This is not the same Tom. You have won a free copy of this beautiful hardback book,

A Candle Against the Dark, Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the United States by my guest,

Bob Copeland. So make sure you give us your full mailing address at cvbbs .com. We'll ship that out to you free of charge.

And we thank Crown and Covenant Publications once again for providing us a limited number of these books.

We have a listener in Hartsdale, New York, Bobby.

And Bobby says, the primary text of scripture of which

I am aware that would clearly be a prohibition of slavery is

Exodus 21, verse 16. And that text reads, one who kidnaps someone, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall certainly be put to death.

And obviously, those that were sold into slavery were at one point kidnapped.

How do you, if you know this, did the opponents of the

Reformed Presbyterians who claimed to defend slavery get past that text, if you are aware of any argumentation, and were there any other biblical texts used by the abolitionist

Reformed Presbyterians to further bolster their argument against slavery? There was quite a bit of theological and biblical controversy about this question in the period leading up to the

Civil War. The passage that you just read certainly is one of the important passages.

Another one which is mentioned frequently in Covenanter and abolitionist sermons and writings is,

God hath made of one blood all the nations of the earth. And, I'm stuck for the rest of that verse now, but anyway, to emphasize that the slaves,

African American slaves and Native Americans and all people are all children of God in the sense of his creation.

And, at the same time, the advocates of slavery argued that, well, look at the examples in the

Bible, the ancient Hebrews owned slaves and Christ and the

Apostles did not condemn things along that line. The response, and from other abolitionists, was, yes, the ancient

Hebrews owned slaves, but it was because they were taken in battle as captives, as prisoners, and it was legitimate for that was just a practice of warfare.

And, if an Israelite indebted slavery for a limited time, but remember that the came around and the next time

Israelite bond servants to be set free and given enough livestock to set them up in business again.

In the New Testament, the practice of slavery was not strong in Palestine at the time, but remember the times that Paul advises that if a slave is able to purchase his heritage of that, and if not, be condemned.

And, of course, the example of Philemon, where Paul made very clear that the former slave or bond servant, whatever his status may be, was to be received as a

Christian brother, and no longer as a slave. So, there were lots of Biblical arguments offered, one direction and the other, but the pro -slavery arguments,

Biblical arguments, were I think, rather superficial. The theological in the scholarly sense, they were trying to justify something that maybe they even knew that was unjustifiable, but they made their stab at it.

There were some pro -slavery advocates who argued from Biblical theology, from a

Biblical theological standpoint. There was one, well, there were two or three at Union Seminary in the

South. There were some at Princeton, B. Warfield, who was opposed to slavery, but insisted that you couldn't call slavery a sin.

That was another kind of sticking point. Some of the friends and enemies of the peculiar institution.

So there was a lot of activity that way. There was a

Presbyterian minister in Kentucky who wrote quite a sizable book insisting that the

Bible supported slavery. Nathan R. Rice and there were some other books that achieved quite a circulation in the

South advocating that slavery was

Biblical, but there were also a lot in the North, a lot of publications in the

North that took the opposite point of view. So both sides wanted to use the

Bible to support their point of view on slavery. Right, and of course the slavery, the form of slavery that existed in Biblical times didn't resemble the kind of slavery that existed in Europe and in North America.

I mean, there is no allowance in the Scriptures to treat another human as an animal.

There is no allowance for breaking up marriages, which happened often, and the grotesque mistreatment of the slaves that frequently occurred, not by every slave owner.

I know it is very politically incorrect to even mention that there were slave owners that were kind to them and even allowed them to purchase their freedom and all kinds of things.

When I say those things, I'm never condoning the institution itself, but a lot of people just inherited the situation that existed for centuries already.

It's like a cult that believes that we should perpetuate polygamy, because there were some of the patriarchs of the

Old Covenant who were polygamists, trying to use the Bible to put a seal of approval on a wicked practice.

And, of course, liberals and those who hate the Scriptures constantly throw that up.

That's like the first thing that they throw up, typically, is the Bible supported slavery. They don't really know what they're talking about, just because a word is being used that is the same for both the kind of slavery that existed in the

Scriptures, with prisoners of war, with people who sold themselves into slavery because they couldn't pay off debts, and other things.

The Bible never gives an allowance for chattel slavery and for treating people in an inhumane way.

That's absolutely right. Chattel slavery was a more modern invention.

Antiquity didn't know that. Chattel slavery was related to serfdom in places like Russia and in medieval

Europe. But that had faded away, shall we say, before the modern period.

But chattel slavery, as it existed in the American South, was perhaps the worst form of slavery ever practiced.

I say perhaps because it's always dangerous to say something was the worst or the best or the first.

So I say that cautiously. Chattel slavery is where someone owns another person or claims to own them completely, body and soul.

There's no way for the slave to get away from it unless, as you say, he's got an owner that will allow him to work off and pay for his liberation or he escapes via the

Underground Railroad or some such means. Of course, in the final analysis, it was the ones that were freed by the

Union Army arriving in their neighborhood that got out of the situation of chattel slavery.

But these people had no choice in their being slaves. They had no options within the realm of the living.

So we say no options except facing death in trying to escape slavery. They were treated as cattle.

They were regarded in the law in most of the southern states as chattels and goods like cattle and furniture and so on.

In Louisiana, they were regarded as part of the real estate.

That when a plantation was sold, the slaves went with the sale along with the fence posts and barns and so on.

What did you mean in your book? To what were you referring as the sum of all...

Yes. Now, I got that. All the chapter titles were taken from some author or other source.

With regard to that statement, I'm flipping through the book right now.

The sum of all villainies. I got that from a sermon by Rev.

J .R .W. Sloan, one of the ministers that I discuss in some detail in the book.

But then I found out since then that there were other writers, preachers and so on of the time who had also used that phrase, the sum of all villainies in reference to slavery.

But that's where I found it. Sure. We have an anonymous listener. And the anonymous listener...

There are pastors and other Christians who are very close with me who believe that we today should make no use of learned and brilliant men of the past who were theologians and wrote voluminously and very much were a benefit to the church in regard to theology, but at the same time were guilty of supporting slavery.

Does your guest believe that we should totally eliminate these men from our libraries and not use them to teach the truth, or should we just recognize that all men are sinners and we have to maintain what is good about their lives, especially if they were teachers of great value, just recognizing the very fact that not everything they taught and believed and practiced was biblical and in fact was sin.

Because every human, while still alive on this earth, is guilty of some sins or others.

Right, and I would strongly agree with the latter half of that question.

Part of our current political situation in this country, what gets called wokeness is the crowd that wants to erase from the history books and from the historical monuments and so on any reference to people who were slave owners or who fought for the

Confederacy or took some position which at the time they believed was proper and moral but our sensitivities now have changed and so we just try to erase them from history.

Are we going to erase Thomas Jefferson, for instance, who was a great advocate for freedom, independence against slavery but he was a slave owner.

Are we going to erase him because of that character flaw? It's not a minor character flaw it is a character flaw, but should we not continue to honor him for what he did in a positive way?

And I would say the same thing about others, the theologians Warfield, for instance who did a great deal of good for the

Christian community in the latter half of the 19th century and the fact that he would not denounce slavery as sin doesn't change the fact that he also contributed very greatly to the advancement of truth through other aspects of his writing.

So yes I don't think we should erase people of past generations simply because we've come to a different understanding of truth than they had at least on some point or other.

If you're talking about somebody who was an out -and -out atheist in the 18th century, that's another matter entirely but I think the questioner was asking about Christians.

Yeah, he was talking about Christians and that's something

I think we need to be very careful of not to put ourselves in the place of God and dechristianize people who at the time were sincere followers of Jesus.

And if these leftists are going to be logically consistent they're going to want to erase all great thinkers and scholars and theologians and people that they even consider to be heroes of history.

They're eventually going to, if they're going to be logically consistent, erase anyone from prior to the mid -20th century from our hearing and reading and from our libraries and from our monuments over the homosexuality issue.

I mean, because there are virtually no people other than villainous closeted individuals prior to the 20th century.

I'm talking about people of note who were in favor of those wicked acts of homosexuality.

So what are you going to do with those people? I mean, you could go on and on and on and even the view of many of the heroes that liberals uphold did not have when you're talking about people in the 19th century and earlier, did not have the same view of the roles of women.

I mean, you could go on and on and on about if they're going to be consistent they're only going to be supporting the preservation of literature and of giving honor to people that lived in the 20th century and 21st.

We have to go to our final break right now and if you have a question I would strongly urge you to submit it very quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Oh, and by the way, anonymous email me your full name and your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of this beautiful book

A Candle Against the Dark by my guest Bob Copeland and I believe

I forgot to tell that to Bobby in Hartsdale, New York as well, you have also won a free copy by virtue of submitting questions today.

So make sure we have your addresses and don't go away, we'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my long time friend

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington DC for the

G3 Ministries regional conference on the theme Just Thinking about the Bible. The conference will be held

Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th and I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the

Just Thinking podcast. To register, visit g3min .org, that's g3min .org

and click on events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington DC.

So join me and Chris Arnson, September 15th through the 17th in Washington DC for the

G3 Ministries regional conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org,

that's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Ottawa in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbyterian Church, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers.

Scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the

Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

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Or call 678 -954 -7831 That's 678 -954 -7831

That's 678 -954 -7831 If you visit, tell them Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, and a toy in County Caldera, Arlington, sent you.

Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music 717 -258 -4688, 717 -258 -4688.

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Call 717 -258 -4688 today. If you love

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit but when it comes time to study God's word in those smaller settings, well let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the word of God and is built upon sound doctrine.

Much less, it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible. Hi there, my name is

Jordan Too and I am the Executive Director of the Baptist Publishing House. Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound

Bible study resources. Our quarterly curriculum is titled the Baptist Expositor and for good reason, we are

Baptist and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the word of God, I invite you, go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

May God bless you. We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio praise

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Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. And welcome back, folks.

Don't forget, if you are a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon on Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring world -renowned apologist Dr. James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries as our keynote speaker. Everything is free at this event, including a lot of free books that very generous publishers have donated so that the men in attendance can get these books free.

There is nothing for sale at these luncheons. It never has been, going back to the 1990s when my precious late wife first launched the luncheons.

And I will continue to conduct them according to her wishes as long as the

Lord enables me to continue conducting these events. So if you want to attend, if you're a man in ministry leadership, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. We are now back with our guest, Bob Copeland. And before I go to any more listener questions,

Bob, if you could, I want you to make sure that you have a few minutes to summarize things that you want to have etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding this book, perhaps things that we have not yet addressed.

Well, I devoted quite a bit of attention to exploring the participation of Reformed Presbyterians in the

Civil War itself. And before the, well, during the

Civil War, twice there were committees of Reformed Presbyterian ministers that were designated to go and meet with President Lincoln.

And they did. And, well, I guess

I would emphasize in kind of in concluding the whole thing is that the purpose of this book is not to glamorize the

Reformed Presbyterians or to praise them particularly because they made mistakes, too, and oversights, too.

But they were doing their best to be faithful to the word of God and to carry that into practice in society.

And they did so much. In addition to their abolitionist work, they had missions to the freedmen during and after the

Civil War. And they were the first Presbyterian group, in fact, to have a mission to the freedmen during the war.

And they did a lot of good, and that good continues in the sense of what remains of the work in Selma, Alabama.

They had a large high school, a hospital, various things that white society in that time and place would not furnish for African -American people.

But I don't want to leave any impression that this book is kind of a hagiography or hagiography.

I'm not glamorizing them. The point is that God used people who were devoted to his truth and determined to put the principles of Scripture into practice in the life of the nation where God had placed them.

Yeah, and we are supposed to give honor to whom honor is due. And perhaps

I can even more comfortably say, being outside of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America denomination, that we should take note of this, because it is a remarkable aspect of history.

And I know of no other theologically sound denomination that was so unanimously opposed to slavery.

The Quakers are very well known for being very opposed to slavery, but they are surely a very aberrant group.

I'm not saying that everything about the Quakers and their history is heretical, but they are surely not what you and I would call within the pale of orthodoxy in regard to the

Scriptures. And I don't know of any other Reformed body especially that was unanimously,

I'm not saying that there were no Reformed people or other Christians that were abolitionists,

I'm just saying that it seems to be unique amongst the Reformed Presbyterians that they were unanimously or very close to unanimously opposed to this wickedness.

I think that's right. Another thing to bear in mind too with regard to these early protests against slavery is that Quakers are not a denominational, hierarchical, that's not quite the right word, but they're all congregationalists.

And so the decision of a regional conference didn't have any application outside of that conference.

And one church has no way to enforce something on another one. The same is true of a lot of, well,

Baptists, for instance, are pretty much that way. Each congregation can decide what they're going to do within certain broad parameters.

But the Reformed Presbyterians were unusual in having both the determination, the biblical gumption, and the practical opportunity to enforce their understanding of God's word on their people.

And we have time for one more listener question, another anonymous listener who says,

I'm very tired of the silence over the heresies of the woke movement, even by the congregation to which

I belong. And I believe that what you have written needs to be known because one of the greatest lies of the woke movement is that all white people are inherently racist and that black people are impossible to become racist.

And these are two lies from the pit of hell. This sin of racism and bigotry is universal amongst all humans by nature, as well as other sins.

And therefore, we have to point out the great heroes of this nation and the world who even risked their lives and gave their lives in the

Civil War who condemned this practice. What's your response to this?

It wasn't a question, basically a very articulate statement. I think that's an excellent statement.

I agree with it entirely. What can

I say beyond, yay brother, preach it. Well, we're out of time, and I really enjoyed our conversation immensely, brother.

I look forward to you coming back on the program. I want to urge everyone who did not get the opportunity to win one of the free copies we are giving out today of this book,

A Candle Against the Dark, Reformed Presbyterians and the Struggle Against Slavery in the

United States. I urge you to go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, since they are a sponsor of the show, cvbbs .com,

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com, and ask for the

Crown and Covenant Publications book, A Candle Against the Dark, by our guest today,

Robert M. Copeland. And I urge you to purchase it and even purchase many copies for gifts and for those you love.

In fact, even if you've won a copy, buy more copies for those that you love.

I want to thank you so much again. I look forward to your return, Bob. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

And by the way, the last anonymous listener, you've won the last copy, so send us your full name and email address to chrisarnson at gmail .com

so that cvbbs .com can ship that out to you. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater