Provoked: Caller Changes His Mind on A b 0 R T 1 0 N!

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Hey, what's up everybody? Feliz Navidad. Merry Christmas.

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You're watching another episode of Provoked. I'm Zach and this is Desi. Hi. How are you? I'm great.

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How are you? Good. I'm with my very handsome brother. You always compliment me before every show, which is so nice, but we're bad at taking compliments, both you and I.

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Like something happens when somebody gives me a compliment. I get like a bunch of chins.

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I don't know how to respond. A bunch of chins. Well, we're just being mean to each other. We're like, this is my dumb sister.

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No, it's so nice. I just noticed. I'm like, I never compliment you. You beautiful bearded man. You're so sweet.

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Well, thanks for tuning in guys. We are Provoked. The show's about provoking Christians to go preach the gospel, save babies and destroy idols.

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I think those are three pretty good tasks to do. Jesus has commissioned us to preach the gospel and to rescue those who are being delivered to death and destroy those things that get in our way.

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So that's what we're all about. What you can do right now is go to apologiastudios .com and become an

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All Access member. You hear me say that every single time we get on here is because as you would pour your support out to us, it will enlarge everything that we do.

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And all that we want to do is what you want to do as a Christian, and that's expand the kingdom of God, get the gospel out, rescue people from cults, rescue babies from death.

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That's what we're doing. So if you do go to Apologia Studios and become that All Access member, you just get so much of God's good word into you through so many just incredible teachers, expert in their fields.

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You get education to your family. And then again, you help us keep these bright lights on so we can do what we do.

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So please go ahead and do that. What are we going to do today? We're going to move quickly. We have a young man named

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Juan Bustos who has agreed to come on the show. And we're just going to have more of a conversational debate with him.

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Juan is very outspokenly pro -abortion and pro -choice. And so what we'd like to do is just discuss the issues with him.

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So Juan, are you there? Yes, I'm here. Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for being on our show and being willing to come on.

02:06

Yes, thank you. Hi Juan, I'm Desi. I'm Zach's sister. I'm the co -host on here. So thank you so much for coming on and joining us.

02:14

Anytime, thank you for having me. Okay. So the reason that we want anybody to come our show is not necessarily, even though I called it a debate, is to win an argument with you.

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What we want to do is debate the issues and we address claims and arguments. But our number one goal is to share the gospel with people so that they would come to know

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Jesus. We know that you don't know Christ, that you're not religious, as you said. And so our number one goal is to get the good news to you in hopes that you would know the

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Lord Jesus. Jesus would be your Savior and Lord. You would bow the knee to him. And we just put that out there because if we truly love you, we're going to give you the message that has the power to save you.

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And number two, we know that you're pro -abortion and we want you to switch sides. We want you to come on the side of life, fighting for life, fighting for these specifically babies that are being killed by the thousands daily in our nation and up to a million every year.

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So that's what we want to do. And so I guess I'll just start out the conversation. I don't feel like there's any good reason whatsoever to be pro -abortion or to be pro -choice.

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There's no good argument out there that would lead somebody to believe, okay,

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I think it's okay to have babies killed in the womb. There is none. There's no good argumentation.

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And so I guess we could start out by why do you believe that it's okay to murder innocent human beings while they're still in their mother's womb?

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Well, to start off, I don't fully believe that it's okay. I consider, you know, if somebody says they are pro -life,

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I believe that before fighting for the unborn, we should fight for who's already here, you know, the people who are struggling, the kids in shelter care and foster care, those who, you know, basically were abandoned by their parents.

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I believe that that, you know, pro -life means, you know, not only fighting for the unborn but also fighting to protect those who are currently struggling because of financial, you know, help or because their parents are drug addicts and they are in a, you know, bad situation.

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Necessarily, I believe that, you know, necessarily I don't see myself, you know, as a pro -life as, you know, you guys will say it.

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I just believe, I just, you know, fully believe that abortion is better in a way rather than, you know, having a kid having to suffer, you know, like so much trauma or abuse from the parents or...

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Yeah, let's stop right there for a second because the first thing that you had said you think it's better for us to focus on kids that are alive.

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And actually, we hear this a lot because my sister and I was others from our church. We stand out in front of abortion clinics and we preach the gospel, the good news that has the power to change minds and hearts.

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And we do everything that we can to save babies from death. And we have a ministry here called In Abortion Now.

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And because of our efforts, thousands of babies have been saved. I can actually show you little pictures of little baby girls and little baby boys.

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It's pretty amazing. They're alive because we stand out there. But we actually hear that argument a lot. I can't tell you how many times you've heard people say, well, you know, why don't you focus on the kids in foster care?

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Or why don't you focus on the kids who are living? And they, what they're implying is that we should leave, we should stop what we're doing, and we should go focus on the kids that are living.

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And so, I think that's, yeah, yeah, because the kid, the child in the womb is living.

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What they're saying is that they're giving the child out of the womb a greater degree of life than the child in the womb, is what they're saying.

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So focus on the kids in the foster care. What are you doing out here? I think that's what you had said in your message to me, right,

06:19

Juan? No, so let me correct myself. Basically, what

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I meant to say is, you could do both things, you know, as a pro -choice, as a pro -lifer, or abortionalist, or whichever one of those terms you guys, you know, call yourself.

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What I meant to actually say is, you know, fight for the unborn, but at the same time, fight for the ones that are struggling.

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Because, I mean, basically, you know, the economy is bad right now, due to the whole virus situation.

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And, you know, there's like many people that do want to have kids, but they don't have the financial help to help them.

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And then those kids most likely end up becoming either homeless, or being brought into, you know, a household that is negative.

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So, you know, I believe that, you know, to be pro -life, it also means helping those who are struggling.

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But at the same time, you know, like you said, it's not stopping the fight to, you know, help the unborn.

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So we're in agreement, I think, there, because we believe that from the womb to the tomb, we're pro -life, we're abolitionists.

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So we believe in, you know, that all life made in the image of God, every human is precious, and is deserving of dignity, and protection, and respect.

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So we're kind of with you on that one, but you're just kind of leaving out those that are in the womb.

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So, yeah, I'll let you talk. Yeah, I don't know, the more I'm listening to you, you're saying that it's okay to fight for babies in the womb, but we should be focused on the babies out of the womb.

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Is that what you're saying? I mean, no, not necessarily. I'm saying we should focus on both.

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Yeah, so are you pro -life, or are you pro -choice? Necessarily, I'm pro -choice, you know, depending on the terms, in a way.

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Okay. You know, I feel like if a mother, you know, cannot provide for their child, or, you know, there's like no resources out there to help them, you know, like in the

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European countries that don't have enough resources to help somebody, you know, abortion may be the way out for them, just because,

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I mean, nobody wants to, you know, bring a kid into a world that they might end up suffering, you know, from many illnesses, or, you know, financial, you know, failure.

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Okay. So the argument there is if the kids are going to struggle, which is something called the slippery slope fallacy.

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I don't know if you've ever heard that, but the slippery slope fallacies that says, if you make a decision

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A, then it will inevitably lead to Z, even though you don't know what's going to lead to Z.

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So that's the fallacy in that type of argumentation. And so if I, let me know if I lose you,

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I want to speak simply and clearly so that you understand. But the argument is because these children are going to live horrible lives, then therefore we should just murder them in the womb.

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Well, the fact of the matter is we don't know how, what the, we don't know what life the child's going to live, right?

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We can't see into the future, but just because children live difficult lives doesn't mean that we can just kill them because we think that they're going to live a difficult life.

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A mom who says, you know what, I'm financially hard up and, uh, you know, I don't even think

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I can care for this child just because, uh, children are financially burdensome on parents.

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I have seven kids of my own. Doesn't mean that I can go kill my three month year old. Right. You see what

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I mean? Because we're dealing with, because we're dealing with a living human being at the moment of fertilization.

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Now you have a unique human being on your hands. And so just because we, we forecast and women do this, man.

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And you're, I've heard this argument over and over again, Hey, this child's going to grow up in, in, uh,

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ABCD. It's going to live in an impoverished environment or see that we can't simply kill a human being because we think this, some, this thing's going to happen to them.

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We don't even have that information. And even if it did happen, is it more merciful to kill that person?

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I mean, would we go up to any, um, homeless person or anybody that's struggling and say, you know, it's more merciful for you to be dead?

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Yeah. I don't think that one, you would agree with that. It doesn't sound like that from what you've already told us.

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Um, I doubt that you would agree that it would be okay to just kill a homeless person or maybe somebody with special needs, um, because they're, they, they might have some hardship in their life.

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Right. Is that right? Right. Go on. Cause, uh, go ahead. Go ahead. I actually, do

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I agree with you while you said, you know, that's completely true. We should not, you know, kill somebody just because they are homeless, but you know, at the same time, you know, like I said,

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I don't start a conversation. We should help those before focusing on who are born just because, you know, it's, you know, burning somebody's life in a way, or, you know, at least, you know, try to like help those that cannot help themselves.

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Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Go ahead. You know, so in the news,

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I see every day how, you know, kids are being mistreated by their parents, how, you know, kids are being brought up to parents who are addicts that, you know, sold them out just so they could be the next, next fix.

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And I feel like those, you know, I mean, right now I'm studying psychology and you know, those people are like, you know, my main focus, like I want to help the ones, you know, who are struggling.

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No, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with helping people who are struggling. And we we've, we've done that actually my sister and I years ago, um, we're in a ministry.

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We helped homeless people all the time and people with deep, deep struggles and addictions. Our church has done that for the past 10, almost 15 years or 10, 12 years, uh, apologies studios.

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So we, we totally get our apology at church, but we totally get that you need to help people.

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But this argument that you're claiming you're, you're purporting you're putting forward is,

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Hey, look, why don't you guys, and I hear it all the time on the street. Why don't you guys go help the kids in foster care?

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Why don't you help the kids, you know, over here that are in need of help rather than stand out here?

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And I think that you had just said that, that we need to help the kids that are in foster care rather than the kids that are being killed at the abortion clinic.

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But brother, we're, we're dealing with a pretty serious situation at the abortion clinic because that baby is a baby in the womb, regardless of the stage of the age or the level of development, how, how young or old ingestation that baby is.

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That baby is actually going through a door in the, in the womb of their mother.

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And that mom is going to pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars of the baby's later long.

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And it's just, just gestational cycle. That baby is going to, what the doctor is going to do is he's going to take stainless steel instruments and he's going to dilate the cervix and he's going to go inside of the woman's body.

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And he's going to twist and tear that baby's body apart piece by piece. That's what an abortion is.

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If the baby's, you know, old enough in the womb, they crush down on the baby's skull.

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I mean, this is a little baby. This is a little baby girl, a little boy. This is a future man, a future woman. We don't know who this human is going to be, a physician, a poet, a doctor, maybe the doctor that's going to cure

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AIDS. Maybe a homeless person. Or cure cancer. Maybe just a homeless person. Actually, it doesn't even matter.

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Right. Because they're made in the image of God. So brother, what we're saying is it's a very urgent situation.

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So say you and I, Juan, we were out on the street, right? And a toddler was running across the street, right?

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You and I, and you ran out, you did the noble thing. You ran out and you wanted to push that little toddler out of the way of an oncoming truck that was going to kill the baby.

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But a guy got in your way and said, wait a second, don't do that. You need to help the kids that are in foster care.

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You see the logic in that argument, Juan? Yes. Now that you actually mentioned that,

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I actually do understand the logic in that and I also understand the hypocrisy behind that.

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And then not to confuse you guys or anything, my original statement about helping the kids in foster care, what

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I actually meant to say is, let's help both, you know, the one born and, you know, maybe like one day, you know, help, maybe like, you know, one day, you know, preach outside abortion clinics and the next day, you know, try to help those that don't have a family or those kids that may end up becoming, you know, suicidal or cut themselves or end up, you know, in depression because of, you know, their current state of life.

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So I also wanted to add, I used to be pro -life, you know, turned into pro -abortion or I mean, excuse me, pro -choice.

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The reason I turned pro -abortion is because basically the people

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I used to work with, when I used to be like a pro -lifer,

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I always asked the group, why don't you guys not, you know, help both?

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And they used to tell me things like, you know, I cannot do everything in a way.

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Why should I do this or that? So, you know, that kind of, you know, changed my perspective on, you know, the pro -life movement.

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When somebody says, I cannot do everything, you know, that, you know, kind of shows, you know, the idea that they are not, you know, fully pro -life, if you know what

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I mean by that. Well, do you think people can do everything? I mean, okay, so let's just say you wanted to give a meal to a homeless person, right?

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Or maybe a group of homeless people and somebody came up to you one and they said, are you going to house these homeless people?

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Do you have room in your home for them? Oh, no, you don't? Oh, well, you can't really say that you're going to help homeless people then.

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But in that moment, you have something you can do for them. You can give them a meal, you can give them money, whatever it is that you have right there at that moment.

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So not everybody can take in a bunch, every adoptable or foster child.

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Our church happens to be a church full of adopted babies and foster babies. And we do believe we're in the same boat.

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We're in agreement with you. There needs to be Christians stepping up and doing that more. I think the foster and adoption system here in America is broken.

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So yeah, we're in agreement with that. But it is true that you can't be doing all things at all times.

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But one thing we can do we see that there is going to be children murdered today and tomorrow and next week.

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There's been 60 million since Roe v. Wade. We know that as a fact. We believe that it's the great evil of our age,

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Juan. If we were living during the times of slavery, we would hope that that would become the primary focus is to end that because it's the most blatant evil in front of us.

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There's also, I'm sure during the time of slavery, there was a whole ton of other things. People could have said, well, why don't you help the white people that are homeless or they need this?

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I'm sure there was other needs during that time, but this is the big, great evil of our age, we believe.

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So what we can do right now is we can go out and we can stand out in front of abortion mills and we can plead for the lives of these children and we can point people to Christ and we can offer to adopt their children.

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We do that every single time we're out there. We say, if you're unable to take care of this child, we'll personally adopt your children.

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We have families in our church that would actually be fighting over who would be able to adopt the child. So we do believe that it's not just out front of the abortion clinic and there are many other needs.

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But the point is that every two minutes, Juan, a child will die in our country.

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That's what's happening right now. And that's the gravity of it. And we really have to go back to, why are we fighting for these children?

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Well, one, because when you were conceived at the moment of fertilization, at the moment of conception, you were precious.

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You had purpose. God has a purpose for your life. I don't know what you've been through. Maybe you've had a great life.

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Whatever the circumstances is, your life is precious in the image of God.

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Now we'd also say that you need Christ. If you don't know Jesus, we would like to share the gospel with you.

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Yeah. Yeah. We'll definitely do that. But so what we want to do though, is we want to help you through the arguments that you've kind of erected or constructed for yourself that are the foundation of your pro -choice position.

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And also, I would just like to confess to you that I wasn't pro, I wasn't an abolitionist. I wasn't pro -life until I was almost 30 years old.

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So a lot of the things that you're saying, I said too. So I'm coming from a place of knowing exactly where you're coming from.

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So I'm not sitting back here looking down on you or anything for your arguments, because I had the same kind of thought process.

20:28

Right. And so you said that you were once pro -life, but you switched positions to pro -choice because you talked to pro -lifers and you said, hey, what about these other people groups that need help?

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And they said, well, you can't do everything at one time. And what my sister was talking about is you can't be two places at one time.

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Do I think the kids in the foster care need help? Yeah, we have families within our church that are foster care families.

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They actually help in that area. But I want to ask you this question, Juan. Are you still there? Yes, I'm here.

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Okay. So what if you were going to help out kids in the foster care system?

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Actually, two parts to this question. You're going to go help out kids in the foster care system. Then you had a guy come up and tap you on the shoulder and say, no,

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Juan, I don't think you're pro -life because you're not helping out kids in the slums of India.

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How do you think that you would answer him? I would basically tell him, for us, basically my view on this is to help others, we have to start within our own neighborhoods, within our own cities.

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Right now, I don't have the financial needs to help them.

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But once I finish college, I honestly would like to help more.

21:54

Sure. What I'm getting to, Juan, is do you think that you were not pro -life because you're not helping the kids in India?

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No. What I'm getting at is no, that's a bad, that's a false claim. Just because you're not able to help every person in every part of the world all at the same time, it doesn't negate your pro -life -ism.

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You're still pro -life. When it comes to what you were saying about our need to help both, what my sister was saying, there's such an urgency in the situation of abortion, just like slavery.

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150 years ago, Juan, I'm sure if you lived there, you'd probably fight for the slaves, right? Yes, I would.

22:37

Yeah, you'd probably do everything you can to save them as much as you could because of the urgency of the situation. So abortion is such an urgent situation that it actually rises to the top of the priority list as far as who needs to be helped.

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So let me illustrate that. So say you and I, Juan, we're walking down the street and we're heading into a building and we're going to help kids that are foster kids, right?

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We're helping them. But all of a sudden, we have a woman screaming. She runs up to us and she says, hey guys,

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I need you to help. There's a guy in a building over here and he's killing toddlers. He's killing little kids.

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So you know what we would do? I don't think you and I would just keep on going to the house or to the auditorium, whatever, the place to help foster care kids.

23:24

I think because of the urgency of the situation, we would say we would go right to that house and rescue those kids from death, right?

23:32

Yes, that's fully correct. That's what I would actually do. Right, exactly.

23:38

So hopefully that was helpful, but what we want to do is we want to kind of deconstruct these reasons why you feel as though abortion is okay.

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So you know, I just kind of want to work at it until you can say, okay, I've abandoned my pro -choice position and now

23:56

I'm pro -life. So what are some other reasons why you feel like you're pro -choice, some other arguments?

24:03

Um, you know, basically that's my main reason. I also feel like, you know, it's, you know, like a personal choice for, you know, the parents.

24:15

You know, when it comes to abortion, I'm 50 -50 on that way. Like I don't fully support it as, you know, most people support abortion, but at the same time, you know,

24:27

I fully understand where most people are coming from or why, you know, they end up in abortion.

24:35

So it's not necessary that, you know, I'm, you know, pro -abortion, like, you know, like if the babies, you know,

24:45

I don't want to say the actual word, that's why I say if the babies, in a way, I don't fully believe that, um, you know, and then, like I said,

24:55

I'm 50 -50 on the subject. You know, abortion is a socially difficult subject in a way.

25:01

I'm not, you know, I'm not saying that by saying that's a difficult subject, I'm not, you know, condoning it, but I just feel like basically, you know, it all comes down to, you know, people's, you know, state of mind as, you know, a way.

25:20

Okay, so do you believe that, um, that the child in the womb is, uh, worth protection?

25:29

Is, do you believe, when do you believe that someone should be protected?

25:35

Would it be at the moment of conception or would it be later on? Would it be after the child was born? Um, what's your...

25:43

Um, I actually believe that the child should be protected from the moment he's, you know, born.

25:50

I mean... What about, like, you know, a lot of people give this, uh, comparison of, like, a mother who's driving, she's pregnant, and a drunk driver comes and kills her and the baby.

26:02

Um, do you think that that child should be protected, um, because the mother wants to be?

26:08

Yeah, definitely. Okay, um, so, so it sounds like to you that the child has worth if the mom wants to have the child, um, and the child doesn't have worth if the mom doesn't want to have the child.

26:21

Am I correct in my assessment? Uh, you are. The main reason, you know,

26:27

I fully think, you know, poor choice. Anyways, you know, there's, like, so many kids that are abused, you know, by parents or by, you know, relatives or just people in general.

26:39

But you don't think that those abused child, those abused children should be dead, right? Yeah, so...

26:45

No, I don't, but just, you know, but in a way, I believe, you know, it's better in a way to, you know, kind of burden rather than, you know, having them suffer for the, like, the next 18 years.

26:56

You know, just like the whole, just like the whole, uh, Gabriel Hernandez kid.

27:02

If you guys know what I'm talking about, the kid that, uh, you know, tortured by his parents because they thought he was homosexual.

27:09

In a way, you know, I mean, you know, that kind of, you know, breaks my heart. But he shouldn't have been.

27:15

Yeah, but you need to hear, though, because I think you've conceded that the baby in the womb is a human being.

27:22

Do you believe the baby in the womb is a human being? Do you believe that? Um, I do, too.

27:28

Honestly, I believe that abortion is a crime after 20 weeks, just because, you know, after that, that's where, you know,

27:36

DNA replication, it's, you know, finished, in a way. Yeah, I know, but any, you have to ask yourself, why not 19 weeks?

27:46

You see, if it's past the moment of fertilization, it's just an arbitrary number.

27:52

I mean, so what I'm saying is you have no good reason to say that, okay, the baby's living or should be worthy of protection at 20 weeks or 21 weeks or 19 weeks, right?

28:03

Because it's an arbitrary type of a claim. You have no reason, because that baby really, at the moment of fertilization, you're dealing with a living human being with their own

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DNA. It's just at a different level of development stage, you know, in a different environment.

28:17

So what I'm trying to get to is when you put a number, okay, 20 weeks, you have to ask yourself, why am

28:23

I putting, why is that the number? And why can't it be a week before or even a second before or a minute before, right?

28:32

There's no biological grounding for it. There's no good science that would say, oh yeah, well, you know, at 20 weeks, that's when he's more human or she's more human than she would have been at 17 or 16 weeks.

28:43

Because again, humanity, and we know this is a biological fact that humanity begins at fertilization, you know?

28:50

So if it's a human being in the womb, what I was getting at is you can't just kill human beings.

28:57

If we're following your logic, you can't kill human beings that suffer or will suffer in the future.

29:03

There are plenty of kids that are suffering right now. And we can't just go start killing them because they're suffering now, and they may suffer in the future.

29:12

And we can't act as though we can look into the future and say, okay, this person is going to, you know, live in a home of a family dealing with addiction, and they're going to be abused until they're 18.

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We don't know that. There's been so many mothers that have chosen life for their kids.

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They were, you know, we're in an extremely difficult situation. They chose life for their child, and these children live wonderful lives.

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And they think their moms, thank God you didn't kill me, right? What I'm trying to get at is you can't, there's no good reason to kill human beings that are suffering or we think that will suffer.

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We don't do that in life. It's just a wrong, wrong thing to do. And so many people have really hard childhoods and go on to live amazing lives, maybe painful lives, but it doesn't mean suffering doesn't equal execution.

30:07

I don't think that you actually believe that though, just from hearing you speak, like, I just think that you maybe haven't worked all this out.

30:15

Like I was the same way when I kind of had this thing in my head where I was like, well, you know,

30:20

I think it's probably wrong, but who am I to tell somebody? And then I really just had to look at the facts and see like, wow, this child, every child is precious and made in the image of God.

30:33

And why, when is it ever okay to murder a baby? Like I would say, oh, you know, in the case of rape or incest, then you can murder the baby.

30:42

Well, why? The baby in the womb is either a person or they're not. So it's either they're a clump of cells or they're an actual unique person, individual with their own separate

30:52

DNA and their own purpose, their own God -given purpose. So I just would encourage you,

30:58

Juan, to really kind of start looking into this and see why do I believe what

31:03

I believe? Because for me, for one, I wasn't saved. I was not a Christian. I said I was a

31:09

Christian and I wasn't. But two, it was also like what the culture was telling me, what I learned in school, what

31:14

I learned in sex ed as like an elementary student, that abortion was just a medical procedure that there was no, they did not teach me about the sanctity of life or anything.

31:30

So a lot of my understanding was just coming from the culture around me and the society around me.

31:35

It wasn't until I actually watched a movie called 180 .com, 180movie .com.

31:40

Yeah, I would encourage you to go watch that, bud. It's only 30 minutes. It's wonderful. I hope that you would please watch that when you have time.

31:48

It was really eye -opening for me again, like I said, and also I was saved.

31:54

So God saved me and then I was able to see that it was wrong. So do you claim to be a

32:01

Christian or what's your? Yeah, you're not religious, right, Juan? No, I'm not a

32:08

Christian, but I actually do believe in God. I believe that he's real and I actually do believe in a higher power.

32:17

What I mean by that is when I read the Bible every once in a while, I feel like an inner connection, something above this world.

32:27

Well, we are Christians and we believe, Juan, that this just didn't happen by chance, that the evolutionary model of origin says that we all came through chance processes, unguided, ungoverned, unpurposed, but it's actually foolishness to believe that.

32:44

So I'm glad that you believe in God. So when it comes to the abortion issue, if you believe in God, we know that you believe in the

32:50

God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only God, because the Bible says that you actually, every person does believe in God and they will have no excuse when they stand before him on the day of their judgment.

33:02

So because you do have that belief in God, God commands us not to murder. So the reason that we go to the abortion clinic and try to save babies is because we love them, we want to save life, but ultimately we are subservient to God's command who commands us, you shall not murder innocent life.

33:22

I mean, sacrificing children, Juan, has been going on for thousands of years.

33:27

This is nothing new, it's just in a different format. You know, thousands of years they used to heat up bronze statues of the gods that they worship, the false gods they worship, and they used to place these little fragile baby bodies on top of these red hot statues to kill them.

33:42

They've been discarding babies, killing babies. And you know, the Christian church has been the people group that have come alongside and actually, you know, scoop these babies up because back in Rome, they would just throw their babies out on the road if they didn't want them.

33:56

They would actually throw them right out in the gutter and the Christians would come and scoop these babies up to care for them, right?

34:02

So Juan, ultimately the reason why we must, we're obligated not to support abortion, not to pay for abortion, is because the

34:11

God that created us, Jesus Christ, the King of Kings who's reigning now, commands us not to do it.

34:17

And that's what we do. We stand out there and we say, you know what? You do have the freedom of choice to do this, but you live in God's world and abortion only brings about death and destruction.

34:29

There's no life that comes from it. That's why we try to intercept, we try to come in between the moms in the clinic, the moms and the abortionists, because the abortion not only kills the baby, which is the most important issue in the whole situation there, but it destroys their lives.

34:45

They're wracked with guilt and shame and pain and misery. That's all that abortion brings. So what we're pleading with you right now,

34:54

Juan, is to abandon your pro -choice position fully. Never ever support the murder of little babies in the womb because your

35:02

God commands you not to. Well, you know, now as I'm saying this,

35:10

I'm thinking about, you know, rethinking this whole abortion thing.

35:15

Good. You know, I actually do say this by heart. I actually do, you know, consider, you know, changing sides.

35:23

I actually met a great abortionist. I think that's how you pronounce it. Excuse me. Ron? If I pronounce it wrong.

35:30

Such as Ron Kranz. I don't know if you guys know him. Was it an abolitionist?

35:37

No, he said an abortionist. No, I'm not an abolitionist.

35:44

No, I'm an officer of pro -life. Right. Okay. So, you know,

35:49

I actually have met great people who are abolitionists, like, you know,

35:55

Ron Kranz. You know, he's one of the few that I know.

36:01

Well, I mean, I'm not saying that you guys don't do it, but, you know, now that you guys told me how you guys help kids, that's, you know, wonderful.

36:10

But Ron Kranz, he's one of the few that doesn't only worship outside clinics, but he also, you know, does ministry in developing countries on the

36:25

Middle East, as well as Africa. Right. Yeah, actually, I looked him up, because you asked me if I knew who

36:31

Ron Kranz was, and I looked him up. And yeah, he does some work overseas to help orphans over there.

36:38

Yeah, he does, you know, and it's not like, you know, most people are, you know, against you guys, or, you know,

36:46

I'm not hateful against, you know, Christians in a way. I just feel like, you know, while there's people like, you know, him or you that do these great things, there are also people who, you know, profit from these type of things.

37:03

So, you know, so, you know, I do believe, you know, abortion is bad.

37:08

I do believe that it's bad when, you know, doctors, you know, force, you know, right to their patients that they need to get an abortion, that's, you know, the only way out.

37:18

Right. That, you know, I actually don't, you know, tolerate. You know, people being lied to just because, you know, doctors want, you know, extra cash in their package.

37:28

Yeah. Hey, we have to bring this to a close. I'm sorry. We just have actually, we're guest of a podcast, but I just want you to know, actually, my sister wants to share something real quick.

37:37

Oh, I just wanted to say thank you for your time. It was a pleasure speaking with you. And I really appreciate your time and just being able to kind of talk these things through.

37:46

Like I said, I said the exact same thing. So it was an honor to just be able to talk with you today.

37:51

And I hope, Juan, that you watch 180movie .com. And I hope you think about what we talked about.

37:57

And, you know, like my brother said in the beginning, you know, this isn't a debate to win. Ultimately, we want to win you to Christ if the

38:03

Lord wills, because we love you and we care for you. And we want you to also see the truth about abortion, because you sound like a smart guy.

38:11

You sound like a compassionate guy. And I think if you really think about it, Juan, you're going to switch sides.

38:17

Yeah. And my brother, he's going to give you the message the most important message he could give you. So we're just going to ask for a couple more minutes.

38:24

We've got to go because we had some technical difficulties, as you know, when we were getting started.

38:29

So this this segment got cut a little short, but I just wanted to say thank you and I'll be praying for you.

38:35

And I really appreciate your time. Yeah. So Juan, again, like my sister said, we truly do love you.

38:41

We love you. We care about you. We care about your soul. We care about where you're going to end up when you die.

38:48

And our conversation does not need to end here just because we're going to get off the phone. I'd love to talk to you through messenger, over the phone, whatever

38:55

I can do to help you. I'm glad that you're looking at the arguments and you're saying, you know what, I'm kind of rethinking this now.

39:01

And I'd love to talk to you as much as I can. But before we get off, I do want to share with you the good news of the

39:07

Christian message. I don't know if you've heard it before or what kind of message, but it is it's great news.

39:14

And the Christian message, I'm going to say it pretty, pretty quickly here, and we can get into it off offline or off the program as much as you would want to.

39:22

But the Christian message is that the God exists, like you said, that we are not, you know, we are not a product of random chance processes or anything like that.

39:31

Evolution would say that's just a really unfounded and foolish explanation of how we came.

39:37

God is our creator. God is the one who made us. God is the one who over us. But God is also holy.

39:43

That means there is he has no sin within him. But the fact of the matter is that we all from cradle to grave, we deal with sin from the cradle.

39:52

The Bible says that we are born in iniquity, meaning that we have sinned against God. We're all sinners.

39:57

And because of our sin against God, we're separated from him. And because of our sin against God, we're headed to a time when we'll be judged.

40:06

The Bible says that is once for us to die. And then we face the judge. We face

40:12

Jesus Christ. A lot of people think, well, I'm going to die and the lights are going to go out and I'm just going to kind of decompose inside of a coffin or I'm going to get burned up inside of a furnace.

40:21

That's not what happens. We die. We head to that judgment. And God on the day of our judgment, he's going to judge us based upon the standard of his law.

40:31

His law commands us. You shall not lie. You shall not steal. You shall not have any other gods but God.

40:37

You shouldn't dishonor your parents and you shall not murder. That's the reason that we ultimately go to the abortion clinics, yes, to save babies, but also to give the good news to the moms because they think it's

40:49

OK, but they're going to stand before God and they're going to be guilty as murderers. And the

40:54

Bible says the punishment for all sinners, every one of us is an everlasting punitive sentence in hell.

41:01

That hell is an actual place. It's like an eternal jail cell. So I don't know if you've ever been to jail, but you go to jail because you have to pay the fine for your crimes.

41:10

So God is righteous and just and he's not going to let sin go without an account and a punishment.

41:16

And the Bible says we are all guilty of sin, that we have all fallen short of God's standard.

41:21

And actually the wages of our sin is death, not only death now, but eternal death. And so we go out sharing the good news and we don't want people to end up in hell forever.

41:31

But the great news about the Christian message is that Jesus Christ, fully

41:37

God, fully man, he came on the earth 2 ,000 years ago. He didn't need to, but it was just a demonstration of God's grace and mercy that God would send his only son in Jesus for 33 years, lived a perfect life that we could never live on our behalf.

41:52

And then he goes to a cross and the cross is a place of capital punishment. And he takes our sin upon himself.

42:01

It's like Juan, if you were sitting in your house and a stray bullet came and it was headed for you straight for your heart and a guy pushed you out of the way and took that bullet for him.

42:13

I mean, that's what Jesus did. He took the wrath of God. He took death that was heading our way as a means of great grace and mercy.

42:22

Then he was buried. And after three days, he rose in power. And it's only based upon Jesus's life and death that we can be saved and be brought into relationship with God, be adopted into the family of God, inherit eternal life.

42:35

And what does God command you now as your king? He commands you to turn from your sin and turn to Jesus.

42:42

And that's what we want. So I know I said a lot in a short period of time, but I would encourage you to think about this.

42:49

And again, we can talk all that you would like later on. Okay, brother? Yeah, I just want to say two things before you guys disconnect.

43:00

I actually do believe that everybody deserves a chance at life. Okay, good.

43:06

Good. You know, the only thing that, you know, made me a strong, you know, pro -choice supporter is, you know, what

43:16

I said about, you know, helping others before, you know, helping to our bond.

43:22

That's like the only thing that separates me. I mean, that separated me because, you know, as of now, you know, you know, talking to you guys, it kind of did show me that I was wrong and that I was, you know, using excuses to, you know, say what

43:40

I believe in. And, you know, that was wrong of me, you know, to basically make up excuses because, you know, that's basically like the same thing about saying, well,

43:49

I should kill this person just because he'll probably end up becoming a bad person, you know, tomorrow.

43:56

So have you changed your mind? I mean, yes, I do say this from the bottom of my heart.

44:02

You guys, they actually won me over. Praise God. The abortion is wrong. Praise God.

44:08

I understand now. Awesome. Well, thank you. You know, I will actually, you know, look into this more.

44:14

Good. Absolutely. You know, I could help you guys in any way, you know, to end this, you know, type of genocide that, you know, is going on right now.

44:23

That's music to our ears. That is exactly what we wanted to accomplish. And we know, I think the Lord was moving in your heart.

44:29

It's something we couldn't do. I think God is changing your mind and your heart. So we're going to let you go, brother. We wish we could talk to you longer.

44:35

We're sorry. We just got to get to another appointment, but I'd love to talk to you more.

44:40

All you have to do is message me. Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much, Juan. Thanks for your time. And we look forward to being in touch with you.

44:49

Anton, I look forward to another interview if it comes down the line. All right.

44:54

God bless you. Anton, please text me when the video is up on YouTube, because like I said,

45:01

I have, you know, one class. He wants to hear this interview. Great.

45:07

Hey, watch 180 Movie tonight. 180movie .com. Go to YouTube. It's only half an hour.

45:13

Okay. Sure. I'll definitely watch it tonight. Awesome. Thank you so much.

45:18

Sorry that we're having to rush off. We really appreciate your time and we'll talk to you soon. Anton, God bless you and thank you for having me and thanks for explaining my wrongs.

45:30

Absolutely. God bless you. Yep. God bless you. We'll talk to you soon. Okay. Bye -bye.

45:36

Okay. Wow. Well, that was awesome. We talked to Juan Bustos. Thank you so much for being on, Juan. Well, we went through his arguments, arguments that he presented where he felt like was the foundation of his pro -choice stance, and he actually just told us that he's changing his mind.

45:52

But he felt like, you know, what did he say? He wants to fight against this genocide. Yeah. So that's something we don't normally hear in our argumentation with people who are pro -choice or pro -abortion.

46:05

So praise God. Pray for Juan. Yeah. Pray for Juan. We gave him the gospel and we're going to have a continued conversation, but that's pretty dang encouraging.

46:12

It's so encouraging. And I just hope it encourages you guys that are listening that, you know, it doesn't have to be this eloquent, like huge, when you hear the word debate, you think of like moderators and, you know, sometimes it can be that, but sometimes it's just a simple conversation and just helping people work through these ideologies.

46:30

Right. Exactly. Start talking to people. Tell them about Jesus. Tell them how precious life in the womb is.

46:36

Yeah. And that's good that you said that because we're not no orators. Yeah. I ain't no, we're not eloquent. You ain't no orator.

46:41

No, we ain't no orators. We're just regular Joe Christians and, you know, we get nervous before we do it, but we prepare and God is just, you know, it's not about the messenger.

46:51

It's all about his word and his message. So get out there and preach the gospel and talk to people about it. We love you.