August 10, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602. Or toll free across the United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

I don't think Steve Camp intended that to be, all of a sudden my headphones just disappeared, poof, gone. Hey boo, hallelujah, hey there we go, hey. Started off one place, went someplace else, woo hoo, here we go.

Anyway, let's try this all over again. I don't think Steve Camp intended that song to be, you know, an opening thing like that. But it works very, very well, the wah, wah, wah, that really works very, very well.

Hey, you know, if you got out of bed this morning and you are feeling good and you're functional today, you didn't wake up in a bunch of pain, you didn't have to have somebody drag you out of bed and so on and so forth, I hope you've taken time to thank the Lord for that today.

There's a lot of folks that don't have that opportunity. I'm currently sort of bouncing off the walls, having just finished a upper chest and shoulder workout out there in the 90, oh, it's already 101 degrees, look at that, 101 at 11 o 'clock in the morning.

Only headed for a high of 108 today, nothing major, especially since we saw a lot worse than that a couple days ago. But anyway, so I've got that post-workout rush thing going, and boy, I'll tell you, it's a blessing to be able to do that.

And so I hope you've been thankful about that. We announced on the blog a couple days ago, I don't know how long ago, sometime last week, that we're going to be taking a look, just briefly, it's not going to be the biggest thing in the world, where I could spend the whole time on it unless everybody calls in and asks questions about it, I guess, at 877 -753 -3341.

But taking a look at some comments Charles Stanley made in his radio broadcast, obviously it was a sermon at some point in the past, I didn't bother to take the time finding out when the sermon was, but it was the radio program that aired last Thursday, and I started hearing about it immediately.

People were mentioning in the channel the comments that had been made by Dr. Stanley on his program regarding John 6. For some reason, anyone says anything about John 6 anywhere in the world, and I hear about it very, very quickly.

We have an intelligence network set up through our chat channel that rivals what was seen in The Bourne Identity. We really do, and so I started hearing about it. By the way, I hope we don't lose my place here, but I've been told by the powers that be that a group of King James only advocates have been calling our offices, and these are the stereotypical King James only guys.

The I-refuse-to-engage-my-brain-to-think-about-anything type. We're not talking about the kind that actually would be willing to sit down and discuss things. We're talking about the kind that just goes, you're a bunch of liberals.

Do you know that? You hate the Bible. I would like to invite these folks to give us a ring today on the program. I'd like to have an opportunity to try to see if maybe, possibly, there would be an opportunity to get them to do something more than just call in and go, you're a bunch of Bible haters.

How come you guys are always bashing the King James Bible? I mean, these are the stereotypical ones. They're the ones that the other guys are always saying we say all King James only people, and we're not.

Have I said anything about King James onlyism recently? I don't even recall. Oh, boy. Hello. Hello. I'm gone.

Hello.

You're still on, but our headphones are going wacky here.

Oh, I figured. Okay, this is really odd. Well, I'll just keep talking even though I can't hear myself anymore. Oh, I just came back. There I go. That's really weird. I sort of figure you're doing something over there.

You're doing something, aren't you?

I didn't touch nothing, man.

I bet you did. I bet you're just a Democrat. You're afraid to admit it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that. It just seemed to come out. But anyway, hopefully the system will work if you call in. I don't know what these folks are doing.

Anyhow, what in the world was I talking about? Oh, yeah, we were going to talk about Charles Stanton. I'm going to play a section from his sermon here. And we went and we took the time. Once we found out that he had mentioned John 6, we went and took the time to listen to it.

And, you know, it's going to be frustrating to listen to because he says true things, and then in the middle of all sorts of odd things he says another true thing. You know, it's very, very, very frustrating.

But before we do that, just a reminder for those of you listening to the pre-show. You already heard about this, but time is passing. Reform folks tend to be procrastinators at times. And please do not procrastinate on getting your reservations in for the conference and debate in November.

I know November sounds like it's a long ways off. It's not. We're talking less than 90 days. Things are coming at us like a freight train. And I'm really hoping the Lord's going to bless that time and God's people are going to be blessed and so on and so forth.

So don't forget to do that. All the information is on the website. Let's listen. I don't know how to do this. There's about, let's see, looking at this thing here in the waveform, there's about six and a half minutes worth of commentary.

And I guess I'll sort of have to start and stop it because I'm just not going to play six and a half minutes and then go back and replay it and comment on it. That'll take even longer. So, all right, let's start listening to what Dr. Stanley had to say here.

John 6 and Divine Drawing

Look at the sixth chapter of John. And the scripture says, talking to these Pharisees, he said, now, verse 43, Jesus answered and said to them, do not grumble among yourselves. Now, look at this 44th verse.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them. And I will raise him up on the last day. He says, no one can come to me unless the Father draws him.

Look at that.

No one can come to me except the Father draws him. He says, you can only come if God draws you. And he says, those whom he foreordained and he predestined, those he called. So when you think about your salvation, there's not one single thing that you and I can take credit for.

Now, I like that so far. I mean, so far, so good. There's nothing we can take credit for. It's all of God. That's great. That's wonderful.

The Bible says if you are saved by the grace of God, it was foreordained, predestined, he called you. Well, does God just call some and not everybody? And then he asks another question. Has God chosen to save some and chosen to send some to hell?

Absolutely not. So I want to say that again. God does not choose to save some and choose to send others to hell. God indeed does choose to save. He says, if I be lifted up, I will draw all men. Many are called, few are chosen.

Okay.

That sounds like his choice then is, this sounds very Geisler-esque. God has chosen to save, just not whom. And he's making it available to everybody. It's the peanut butter predestination position, the triple P.

That'd be PBPP, wouldn't it? Yeah, PBPP. Peanut butter predestination position that he just sort of spreads it all out there. And it's just a position. And he's chosen to save. And hence, if we go with the stuff regarding the Geisler-esque position, he's chosen to make salvation a possibility.

He's chosen to make salvation available. He's chosen to save. He just hasn't chosen who. It's up to us. Sort of. Sort of. Now see, something just changed again. Something just popped, and now it just popped the other direction.

Now it popped the other way. Okay, folks, we are having technical difficulties. The equipment is falling apart. The bailing wire has broken, and now I'm gone. Oh, and now I'm back. I'll just go back to Charles Stanley here.

So what we have to ask is, is it the will of God for anyone to be lost?

No.

He says it's not my will.

I ain't going to work either. Now I'm completely gone. Someone's got to let me know if you can hear me, because I'm going in, out, up, down, all around, and the same thing with the feed from the computer.

So I don't know if we can even hear. Whoa, wow, now I just. Maybe we need to schedule the program at another point or something. I don't know what's going on. And I'm not getting any feedback as to what is going on.

I can hear myself at the moment. We can hear you and Stanley just fine. Okay, I'll just keep trying. It's fine now.

All right.

I'll just go back here just a second and see what. Sorry about that, folks, but when I can't hear it, or when it's going in one ear, then the other ear, and all the rest of this stuff, then I, you know, what else can I go with?

Some choose to send others to hell. God indeed does choose to save. He says, if I be lifted up, I will draw all men. Many are called, few are chosen. So what we have to ask is, is it the will of God for anyone to be lost?

No.

He says it's not in our will that any should perish. He says he desires that all people would be saved. So it's very clear in the Scriptures, and there are many others, that you and I can turn to. It is the will of God and the purpose of God.

It is the desire of the heart of God that every person would come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, whose service shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Will everybody call upon it?

No, they will not.

Well, okay, that's your standard, full Arminian, there is no sovereign decree of God, free will, the whole nine yards. Okay, that's your standard stuff. It shows absolutely no interest whatsoever, or any knowledge of any other viewpoint regarding 2 Peter 3 .9, 1 Timothy 2 .4.

It just throws those little acontextual snippets out there, as if the exegesis has been done, the work is finished, everybody agrees that this is what is to be believed, and we go on from there. That's a shame.

You would think that, especially after many years of preaching, and if you preach through the word of God, if you're forced to deal with these passages, you would think maybe at least within the context of the quiet of the study, the preparation for the sermon from 1 Timothy 2, that maybe you'd crack open a commentary by John Calvin, or you'd crack open a commentary by some Reformed person someplace, there are a few of them out there, and would go, oh, there are folks that point out other things about this passage, there are folks that point out in 2 Peter 3 that you've got these pronouns here, and in 1 Timothy 2 you've got this context of rulers and all kinds of men, and maybe I should take this into account, maybe I should think through what this means, but we don't get that.

You just get the easy, light repetition of an acontextual interpretation of a passage, this is just what it means, and this is going to be enough for this audience to keep them happy. You don't get any response, and that's very disappointing.

Very disappointing indeed, but it also doesn't tell us anything about John 6, because that's not what John 6 .44 said. That's not what John 6 .44 indicates. There's no looking into the text at all. It's very disappointing, very disappointing indeed, those passages.

Whosoever believes, okay, but what passage are you referring to? What context are you referring to? What does whosoever mean there? Is it possibly all the believing ones as it is in John 3? Again, you just have this light, airy tradition, and that's all it is.

This isn't exegesis. It's just tradition being thrown out there as if it is biblical teaching.

They rejected Jesus in His day, and they're rejecting Jesus today. And my friend, if you're a person who has heard the gospel or listening to the gospel, and you have rejected Him, and if you keep on rejecting Him, and if you die in the state of rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior, you will be eternally separated from God by your own choice.

Not because God didn't want to save you, not because He didn't try to, not because He didn't send His Son to make it possible, not because He does not reach out to you in love. If you die without Christ, it will be because you rejected the truth, because you have chosen to have your own way, because you've said, I don't want God having His way in my life.

You have chosen to resist deliberately, willfully the truth and the opportunity of knowing God as your personal Savior through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Now, half-truth, half-error. Half-truth, half-error. What's the half-truth? The truth that resounds with all of us is, as I pointed out in preaching through John chapter 8 this past Sunday, I have links on the blog, these people hated Christ.

And they willfully rejected Him. And they were not forced to do this. They were not neutral moral agents who were simply saying, well, you know what, God's forcing me to dislike Christ. No, no one's saying that.

There's no question about the activity of their will, about the choice that they've made. No question about that at all. But the half-error, which is a full error, was the statements about, well, you know, you're going to go to hell.

I didn't use that term, but you're going to be eternally separated from God. But God tried. You can't blame God. God tried. He sent His Son. He tried to save you. He made it possible. And you see, there you have the work of Christ reduced to possibilities and probabilities and trying, and in that case, failing, failing to accomplish His desire.

That's where the error is. Let's make sure that we hear that.

They rejected Jesus in His day, and they're rejecting Jesus today. And my friend, if you're a person who has heard the gospel or listening to the gospel, and you have rejected Him, and if you keep on rejecting Him, and if you die in the state of rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior, you will be eternally separated from God by your own choice, not because God didn't want to save you, not because He didn't try to, not because He didn't send His Son to make it possible.

There it is. There it is. He tried. He wanted to.

Not because God didn't want to save you, not because He didn't try to, not because He didn't send His Son to make it possible, not because He does not reach out to you in love. If you die...

And I think, again, you know, I don't know how it is that someone can be in ministry for decades upon decades and never think about this. I'll be honest with you. I don't understand it. But if you say God tried, then don't you have to say He failed?

If you say He made it possible, and He tried to save you and you go to hell, doesn't that mean that He tried to save you as much as He tried to save a person who goes to heaven? And so if He tried equally with both, and when I hear people say that, I just want to scream.

Excuse me, folks. If you live in the United States and you hear the gospel in the United States, with churches around you, are you telling me that God tried to save the Canaanites while the children of Israel were in Egypt equally with you?

Come on. That's just absurd. I mean, people threat all the time, God just tries to save everybody equally. I was listening to that debate yesterday. One of the things I do, I've got this new rower, and that Concept 2C, that's a wonderful thing, and I was doing 6 ,000 meters yesterday.

For those of you who row, you go about half an hour of hard work. And I was watching the debate between Thomas Schreiner and Bruce Ware and the two Methodists that I mentioned, I don't know, six, eight months ago, whatever it was.

I got the DVD and I was watching the debate and I was listening to one of the two Methodists, Wesleyan Armenians, I guess. I guess they're Wesleyan Armenians. And they were talking about how the fundamental concept that is theirs is that God tries to save each person equally.

And I'm just in between pulling as hard as I can and sweating like I don't know what, I'm sitting here going, excuse me, but I hope somebody asks a question somewhere through this debate. So you're telling me that God expended the exact same kind of effort, the exact same kind of grace and conviction and spiritual output to save a person living in the southern United States where there's three churches and a gas station on each corner and radio programs and television programs and people on the street corner with a Bible, as he did the pagans in Canaan, that the Bible says the time for their destruction is not yet, I'm going to let their iniquity fill up.

And then he sent the armies of Israel in and he didn't send them in with tracks, folks.

You know what I mean?

He didn't send missionaries in there. Okay? He wiped them out. Are you telling me that there is an equal effort here?

I just, I don't understand that.

How can you seriously look at an audience and say, yes, we believe. That's what the Bible teaches.

I don't understand that.

It is not what the Bible teaches.

Where can you come up with that?

I don't know.

It just, I don't understand.

Not because God didn't want to save you. Not because he didn't try to. Not because he didn't send his son to make it possible. Not because he does not reach out to you in love. If you die without Christ, it will be because you rejected the truth, because you have chosen to have your own way, because you've said, I don't want God having his way in my life.

And that means that if you've accepted him, and you've gotten the same amount of grace, then what's the difference between you and the person who rejects Christ? You must be better. You must be more sensitive.

You must be more intelligent. Something, you've got to find the difference in the one who is redeemed. And hence, grace is not the distinguishing factor.

...chosen to resist deliberately, willfully, the truth, and the opportunity of knowing God as your personal Savior through his Son, Jesus Christ. That's the way it is. So the question comes, can anybody be saved?

Anybody called by God? Anybody the Lord God draws? Well, can you be saved any time you want to? No, you can't. You cannot be saved until you are convicted of the need of salvation, that the Spirit of God works in your life, and you sense the call of God in your life.

That will not come in everybody's life the same way. Well, let's talk about this whole issue, for example, of free will.

Hold on a second now. See, this is where people get confused listening to Dr. Stanley, because sometimes he says some right things, and then he puts it together with pure tradition that makes for confusion.

So no one can get saved until they are convicted of the Holy Spirit, of their need of salvation. Now before this, he had this whole thing about how children are convicted of a need of Jesus and not really of sin, and I'm like, excuse me, the whole idea of conviction apart from sin, conviction of a need but not a conviction of sin, I just go, no way.

I have no idea what in the world that's all about. Way off on that one. But even here, okay, you can't get saved until you're convicted of sin, and that's going to come into people's lives in a different way.

How did that come into Pharaoh's life? How did that come into the Egyptian foot soldier who gets squished by the falling water of the Red Sea? How does that, are you saying that that comes into every person's life equally today?

Even in this situation, in our world today, that's an equal thing with everybody? Sorry, that doesn't work again. You know, it's true, you can't just get saved. The work of the Holy Spirit, absolutely, positively required.

No question about that. But how are you putting that together with what else has been said? It doesn't make any sense.

Let me ask you this. How free is a man's free will? Now when I say man, I'm talking about men and women. How free is a person's free will? A free will means you have the freedom to do anything you please.

You believe that? I certainly hope you don't. Because listen, when you take this to its fullest, here's what you're saying. If any person on the face of this earth has an absolutely, perfectly, complete free will, that means that they are no longer subject to God.

God is the sovereign of this universe. And listen, while man has a free will, it is a limited free will.

And at that point we go, yo, yeah, limited free will.

But what's it limited by?

It's amazing, so many people, they see, they have to see, that the Bible teaches that our will is a creaturely will. And whatever you want to do with the word free, it has to be linked to the word creature and fallen and slave and dead.

And so they don't have any problem saying what Charles is saying right now, except when it comes to the one issue of salvation itself.

Only that one issue.

Then all of a sudden that not so free will becomes all powerful.

No one has an ultimately free will. The most vile, wicked, personal face of this earth can only do what God allows them to do. Now why God allows some people to do some things he does, I don't know. But they can only do what God allows them to do.

Not necessarily what God wills them to do, but what God allows them to do. No one has an absolutely free will. All wills are subject to the sovereign, ultimate, omnipotent will of the living God. Otherwise we have real tragedy everywhere.

And God would not be the supreme sovereign of this universe. So therefore, no one has an ultimately free will. Well, what about this whole idea of many called, few are chosen? I want you to hear this very clearly.

God would never choose to save these and choose to send someone to hell.

Now notice that's the second time he said it. And he tries to make this issue of equal ultimacy. He tries to make the extension of mercy and grace to the elect equal to, an exact parallel to, the reprobation of the non-elect.

And so the issue of guilt, the nature of grace is undeserved. The issue of punishment, the fact that in one God is extending this effort to a rebel sinner and has to do resurrection. He doesn't have to do anything to the reprobate for them to go to hell.

They're already deserving of that. So you have this equal ultimacy, this equality stuff. And unfortunately he tries to make them parallel to one another. That's not true. Well, yeah, we would agree. This equality is not true.

It's not what we believe. And I don't know anybody who does, but that's the problem with the presentation.

Never.

So he doesn't make those kind of choices. But God does choose to save some people in spite of themselves. He said, now, wait a minute. Now, just wait a minute. Now, you mean to tell me that God will work against a person's will?

Yes, he will. Will he break that person's will? No, I don't think that's the issue.

Now, listen to this. This is funny because, and I don't mean to be funny in a mocking sense, but the inconsistency here is seen by someone who's forced by Scripture to see certain things that go against his tradition.

And he's willing to go against his tradition some, but not all the way. You know, a true libertarian is going to go, no, no, no, no, you can't say this. You've got to keep it all equal. And he's not willing to do that.

Because he's talking about the context here, if you didn't listen to it, is Paul. And Paul getting knocked off his horse, the conversion of Paul. And, you know, that's not exactly the same way that God works with everybody.

So it's obvious that God had a purpose in saving Paul, and he's working against Paul's will. And the libertarian's going to go, he never violated it, but he wants to try. Listen to how trying to hold two opposites together really is very difficult here.

And choose to send someone to hell.

Never.

So he doesn't make those kind of choices. But God does choose to save some people in spite of themselves. He said, now, wait a minute. Now, just wait a minute. Now, you mean to tell me that God works against a person's will?

Yes, he will. Will he break that person's will? No, I don't think that's the issue. But will he work against the person's will? Thank God he does. Most of us wouldn't be saved. Thank God he works against their will.

Does he recognize their will, acknowledge their will, respect their will? Yes, he does.

What do you mean, acknowledge their will, respect their will? How about renew our will? How about free our will? How about cause regeneration so that we have new desires? Is it okay to say those things for the libertarian?

No, it's not.

But that does not mean that God's just going to back off and say, be my guest, have it any way you want to. No, because he said he's the only begotten son of this world that you and I may be saved. Now, listen.

The Spirit of God came into this world to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. And conviction, friend, is pressure. If you ever felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit, you know what pressure is like.

And the Spirit of God knows how to turn it up. When the Apostle Paul fell down, blind, smitten by Almighty God, on that day what happened? God's conviction came in a climactic form, struck him down, identified who he was.

And then they ask you a question. How many of you think, lying back in the sand, talking to the Lord Jesus Christ and hearing Jesus say, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting, how many of you believe he could have said, well, I don't want to be a part of that, nothing doing, God, forget it.

I don't think he could have said no.

Well, I agree. He couldn't have said no. But let's then take that to its conclusion. Nobody, when the Spirit of God chooses to bring one of his elect people to salvation, is able to withstand that thing called resurrection power, yeah?

Paul illustrates for us the truth that God is sovereign in the matter of salvation. Maybe his own experience then impacted how he viewed that subject. Maybe that should be kept in mind when we read Romans 8 and 9 and things like that.

877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341. We have one caller online who will be taking your phone calls on the dividing line. After we take this break, we'll be right back.

...try to save your soul from death. It's all works righteousness, you know. Can I manufacture grace myself or not in some religious place by weeping hard on your face or saying prayers to some dead saint, you know?

At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Once a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers, the doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of Reformed evangelicalism itself. Join Alpha and Omega Ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue, justification, the heart of the gospel, with pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture, the ground and pillar of our faith, David King, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Founders Conference, Tom Askell, New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of Evangelical Answers, Eric Svensson, the founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of Grace to You, Philip Johnson, nationally renowned Reformed Christian artist, Steve Camp, and the founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and author, Dr. James White.

Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton Ballroom on November 6, 2004, beginning at 845 a .m. Seating is limited, so order your tickets now at aomin .org. That's www .aomin .org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God, James White, in his book, The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .aomin .org.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue Movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the Reformed scholars who opposed them in error? Does Trinitarian Baptism make one a member of the New Covenant? Are Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5, 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue Movement and New St. Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at aomin .org. That's www .aomin .org.

John 8, Human Inability, and the Example of Christ

And welcome back to The Dividing Line.

We have been reviewing some comments made by Charles Stanley last week. You know, there was almost nothing said about John 6. I mean, talk about quoting a... Thank you, Steve. Steve, you're going to have your opportunity of singing on the cruise and at the conference, but we're done for another half hour or so, okay?

All right, okay. Some folks just want to keep going. Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, yes, Charles, he didn't say anything about John 6. There was no attempt there to deal with the text, to address the text, to even listen to what the text is saying at all.

So I just played it just simply for an example of what's out there and the extremely confusing, let's face it, confusing presentations there. Even when you hear truth being said, as soon as you insert that absolute human tradition of libertarianism, it all turns to muddle.

It's just who knows what in the world is being said. 877 -753 -3341. You need to get on the lines because we have lines open right now. Let's go ahead and go back east and talk with Joseph. Hi, Joseph.

Hello, Dr. White.

How are you?

Good. How are you doing?

Doing good.

Great.

I'm calling, kind of referencing the John 6 thing, and the other night I got on and I listened to it. I figured I'd read the book before you talk about it or listen to the sermon. So I'm listening to it, and I'm always amazed.

When people prepare for debates and you do all your preparation, I'm like, oh, my gosh. But after listening to that, I felt like I could debate Charles Stanley on the topic of the Reformation.

Well, I don't know, honestly, if Dr. Stanley has addressed these issues in a fuller form or if he's one of those who just, you know, because he's well known for his discussion of what? Of once saved, always saved.

That's, you know, when I think of Charles Stanley and the books he's written, that's the one that stands out in my mind. Well, you know, I'm one of those folks that really, really believes that you have no grounds or basis for that outside of recognizing the perfection of the work of Christ.