August 10, 2004

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Asking around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now, with today's topic, here is
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James White. I don't think Steve Camp intended that to be.
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All of a sudden my headphones just disappeared, poof, gone, hey boo, hallelujah, there we go.
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Hey, started off one place, went someplace else, woohoo, here we go. Anyway, let's try this all over again.
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I don't think Steve Camp intended that song to be, you know, an opening thing like that, but it works very, very well, the wow, wow, wow, that really works very, very well.
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Hey, you know, if you got out of bed this morning and you are feeling good and you're functional today, you didn't wake up in a bunch of pain, you didn't have to have somebody drag you out of bed and so on and so forth,
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I hope you've taken time to thank the Lord for that today. There's a lot of folks that don't have that opportunity.
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I'm currently sort of bouncing off the walls, having just finished a upper chest and shoulder workout out there in the 90, oh, it's already 101 degrees, look at that, 101 at 11 o 'clock in the morning, only headed for a high of 108 today, nothing major, especially since we saw a lot worse than that a couple of days ago, but anyway, so I've got that post -workout rush thing going and boy,
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I'll tell you, it's a blessing to be able to do that and so I hope you've been thankful about that. We announced on the blog a couple of days ago,
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I don't know how long ago, sometime last week, that we're going to be taking a look, just briefly, it's not going to be the biggest thing in the world, but I could spend the whole time on it unless everybody calls in and asks questions about it,
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I guess, at 877 -753 -3341, but taking a look at some comments
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Charles Stanley made in his radio broadcast, obviously it was a sermon at some point in the past,
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I didn't bother to take the time finding out when the sermon was, but it was the radio program that aired last
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Thursday and I started hearing about it immediately, people were mentioning in the channel the comments that had been made by Dr.
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Stanley on his program regarding John 6, for some reason, anyone says anything about John 6 anywhere in the world and I hear about it very, very quickly, we have an intelligence network set up through our chat channel that rivals what was seen in the
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Bourne Identity, we really do, and so I started hearing about it, by the way,
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I hope we don't lose my place here, but I've been told by the powers that be that a group of King James only advocates have been calling our offices and these are the stereotypical
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King James only guys, the I refuse to engage my brain to think about anything type, we're not talking about the kind that actually would be willing to sit down and discuss things, we're talking about the kind that just goes, you're a bunch of liberals, do you know that, you hate the
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Bible, and I would like to invite these folks to give us a ring today on the program,
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I'd like to have an opportunity to try to see if maybe, possibly, there would be an opportunity to get them to do something more than just call in and go, you're a bunch of Bible haters, you know, how come you guys are always bashing the
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King James Bible, and I mean, these are the stereotypical ones, they're the ones that the other guys are always saying we say all
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King James only people, and we're not, have I said anything about King James onlyism recently, I don't even recall, oh, boy, hello, hello,
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I'm gone, hello, you're still on, but our headphones are going wacky here, oh,
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I figure, oh, okay, this is really odd, well, I'll just keep talking, even though I can't hear myself anymore,
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I just came back, there I go, you know, that's really weird, I sort of figure you're doing something over there, you're doing something, aren't you,
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I didn't touch nothing, man, I bet you did, I bet you're just, you're a democrat, you're afraid to admit it,
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I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that, it just seemed to come out, but anyway, hopefully the system will work if you call in, and I, you know,
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I don't know what these folks are doing, anyhow, what in the world was I talking about, oh, yeah, we're going to talk about Charles Stanton, I'm going to play a section from his sermon here, and we went and we took the time, once we found out that he had mentioned
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John VI, we went and took the time to listen to it, and you know, it's going to be frustrating to listen to because he says true things, and then in the middle of all sorts of odd things, he says another true thing,
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I, you know, it's very, very, very frustrating, but before we do that, just a reminder for those of you listening to the pre -show, you already heard about this, but time is passing, it's, reformed folks tend to be procrastinators at times, and please do not procrastinate on getting your reservations in for the conference and debate in November, I know
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November sounds like it's a long ways off, it's not, we're talking less than 90 days, things are coming at us like a freight train, and I'm really hoping the
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Lord's going to bless that time, and God's people are going to be blessed, and so on and so forth, so don't forget to do that, all the information is on the website, let's listen,
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I don't know how to do this, there's about, let's see, looking at this thing here in the wave form, there's about six and a half minutes worth of commentary, and I guess
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I'll sort of have to start and stop it, because I'm just not going to play six and a half minutes, then go back and replay it and comment on it, that would take even longer, so all right, let's start listening to what
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Dr. Stanley had to say here. Looking to the sixth chapter of John, and the scripture says, talking to these
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Pharisees, he said now, verse 43, Jesus answered and said to them, do not grumble among yourselves, now look at this 44th verse, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws them, and I will raise him up on the last day, he says no one can come to me unless the father draws him, look at that, no one can come to me except the father draws him, if he says you can only come if God draws you, and he says those whom he foreordained and he predestined, those he called, so when you think about your salvation, there's not one single thing that you and I can take credit for, now
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I like that so far, I mean so far, so good, there's nothing we can take credit for, it's all of God, that's great, that's wonderful.
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The bible says if you are saved by the grace of God, it was foreordained, predestined, he called you, well, does
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God just call some and not everybody, and then he asked another question, has God chosen to save some and chosen to send some to hell, absolutely not, so I want to say that again,
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God does not choose to save some and choose to send others to hell, God indeed does choose to save, he says if I be lifted up,
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I will draw all men, many are called, few are chosen. Okay, that sounds like his choice then is, this sounds very
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Geisler -esque, God has chosen to save, just not whom, and he's making it available to everybody, it's the peanut butter predestination position, the triple
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P, that'd be PB, PP wouldn't it, PB, peanut butter predestination position, that he just sort of spreads it all out there, and it's just a position, and he's chosen to save, and hence if we go with the stuff regarding the
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Geisler -esque position, he's chosen to make salvation a possibility, he's chosen to make salvation available, he's chosen to save, he just hasn't chosen who, it's up to us, sort of, sort of, now see something just changed again, something just popped, and now it just popped the other direction, now it popped the other way, okay folks, we are having technical difficulties, the equipment is falling apart, the bailing wire has broken, and now
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I'm gone, so, oh, and now I'm back, and, I'll just go back to Charles Stanley here.
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So what we have to ask is, is it the will of God for anyone to be lost, no, he says it's not my will. I ain't gonna work either, now
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I'm completely gone, someone's got to let me know if you can hear me, because I, I'm going in, out, up, down, all around, and the same thing with the feed from the computer, so I don't know if we can even hear, whoa, wow, now
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I just, maybe we need to, schedule the program at another point or something,
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I don't know what's going on, and I'm not getting any feedback as to what is going on, I can hear myself at the moment, we can hear you and Stanley just fine, okay,
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I'll just keep trying, it's fine now, all right, I'll just go back here just a second and see what, sorry about that folks, but when
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I can't hear it, or when it's going in one ear, then the other ear, and all the rest of this stuff, then
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I, you know, what else can I go with? Some, and choose to send others to hell, God indeed does choose to save, he says if I be lifted up,
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I will draw all men, many are called, few are chosen, so what we have to ask is, is it the will of God for anyone to be lost, no.
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He says it's not my will that any should perish, he says he desires that all people would be saved.
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So it's very clear in the scriptures, and there are many others, that you and I can turn to, it is the will of God, and the purpose of God, it is the desire of the heart of God that every person would come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, whose service shall call upon the name of the
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Lord shall be saved. Will everybody call upon him? No they will not. Well, okay, that's your standard, full
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Arminian, there is no sovereign decree of God, free will, the whole nine yards, okay, that's your standard stuff, shows absolutely no interest whatsoever or any knowledge of any other viewpoint regarding 2
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Peter 3, 9, 1 Timothy 2, 4, it just throws those little acontextual snippets out there as if the exegesis has been done, the work is finished, everybody agrees that this is, you know, what is to be believed, and we go on from there.
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That's a shame, you would think that especially after many years of preaching, and if you preach through the word of God, if you're forced to deal with these passages, you would think maybe at least within the context of the quiet of the study, the preparation for the sermon from 1
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Timothy 2 that maybe you'd crack open a commentary by John Calvin, or you'd crack open a commentary by some reformed person someplace, there are a few of them out there, and would go, oh, there are folks that point out other things about this passage, there are folks that point out in 2
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Peter 3 that you've got these pronouns here, and in 1 Timothy 2 you've got this context of rulers and all kinds of men, and maybe
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I should take this into account, maybe I should think through what this means, but, you know, we don't get that.
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You just get the easy, light repetition of an a -contextual interpretation of a passage, this is just what it means, and this is going to be enough for this audience to keep them happy.
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You don't get any response, and that's very disappointing, very disappointing indeed, but it also doesn't tell us anything about John 6, because that's not what
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John 6 .44 said. That's not what John 6 .44 indicates, there's no looking into the text at all.
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It's very disappointing, very disappointing indeed, those passages, you know, whosoever believes, okay, but what passage are you referring to, what context are you referring to, what does whosoever mean there, is it possibly all the believing ones as it is in John 3, again you just have this light, airy tradition, and that's all it is, this isn't exegesis, it's tradition being thrown out there as if it is biblical teaching.
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They rejected Jesus in his day, and they're rejecting Jesus today, and my friend, if you're a person who has heard the gospel or listening to the gospel, and you have rejected him, and if you keep on rejecting him, and if you die in the state of rejecting
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Jesus Christ as your Savior, you will be eternally separated from God by your own choice, not because God didn't want to save you, not because He didn't try to, not because He didn't send
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His Son to make it possible, not because He does not reach out to you in love, if you die without Christ, it'll be because you rejected the truth, because you have chosen to have your own way, because you've said,
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I don't want God having His way in my life, you have chosen to resist deliberately, willfully, the truth, and the opportunity of knowing
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God as your personal Savior through His Son, Jesus Christ. Now, half truth, half error.
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Half truth, half error. What's the half truth? The truth that resounds with all of us is, as I pointed out in preaching through John chapter 8 this past Sunday, I have links on the blog, these people hated
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Christ, and they willfully rejected Him, and they were not forced to do this.
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They were not neutral moral agents who were simply saying, well, you know what,
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God's forcing me to dislike Christ. No, no one's saying that.
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There's no question about the activity of their will, about the choice that they've made, no question about that at all.
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But the half error, which is a full error, was the statements about, well, you know, you're going to go to hell, didn't use that term, but you're going to be eternally separated from God, and, but God tried.
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You can't blame God. God tried. He sent His Son. He tried to save you.
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He made it possible. And you see, there you have the work of Christ reduced to possibilities and probabilities and trying, and in that case, failing, failing to accomplish
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His desire. That's where the error is. Let's make sure that we hear that. They rejected Jesus in His day, and they're rejecting
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Jesus today. And my friend, if you're a person who has heard the gospel or listening to the gospel, and you have rejected
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Him, and if you keep on rejecting Him, and if you die in the state of rejecting Jesus Christ as your
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Savior, you will be eternally separated from God by your own choice. Not because God didn't want to save you.
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Not because He didn't try to. Not because He didn't send His Son to make it possible. There it is. There it is.
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He tried. He wanted to. Not because God didn't want to save you. Not because He didn't try to.
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Not because He didn't send His Son to make it possible. Not because He does not reach out to you in love if you die.
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And I think, again, you know, I don't know how it is that someone can be in ministry for decades upon decades and never think about this.
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I'll be honest with you. I don't understand it. But if you say God tried, then don't you have to say
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He failed? If you say He made it possible, okay, and He tried to save you, and you go to hell, doesn't that mean that He tried to save you as much as He tried to save a person who goes to heaven?
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And so if He tried equally with both, and I've, you know, when I hear people say that, I just want to scream.
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Excuse me, folks. If you live in the United States, and you hear the gospel in the
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United States the way that, you know, with churches around, are you telling me that God tried to save the
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Canaanites while the children of Israel were in Egypt equally with you?
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Come on. That's just absurd. I mean, people threat all the time,
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God just tries to save everybody equally. He's, you know, I was listening to that debate yesterday.
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One of the things I do, I've got this new rower, and that concept 2C, that's a wonderful thing, and I was doing 6 ,000 meters yesterday.
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For those of you who row, you go, oh, about half an hour of hard work, and I was watching the debate between Thomas Schreiner and Bruce Ware, and the two
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Methodists that I mentioned, I don't know, six, eight months ago, whatever it was. I got the
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DVD, and I was watching the debate, and I was listening to one of the two Methodists, Wesleyan Armenians, I guess,
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I guess they're Wesleyan Armenians, and they were talking about how the fundamental concept that is theirs is that God tries to save each person equally, and I'm just in between, you know, pulling as hard as I can and sweating like I don't know what,
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I'm sitting here going, excuse me, but I hope somebody asks a question somewhere through this debate.
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So you're telling me that God expended the exact same kind of effort, the exact same kind of of grace and conviction and spiritual output to save a person living in the southern
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United States where there's a church on, there's three churches and a gas station on each corner, and radio programs and television programs and people on the street corner with a
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Bible, as he did the pagans in Canaan that the
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Bible says, the time for their destruction is not yet, I'm going to let their iniquity fill up, and then he sent the armies of Israel in, and he didn't send them in with tracts, folks, you know what
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I mean? He didn't send missionaries in there, okay? He wiped them out.
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Are you telling me that there is an equal effort here? I just, I don't understand that.
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How can you seriously look at an audience and say, yes, we believe that's what the
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Bible teaches. I don't understand that. It is not what the Bible teaches. Where can you come up with that?
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I don't know. It just, I don't understand. Not because God didn't want to save you? Not because he didn't try to?
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Not because he didn't send his son to make it possible? Not because he does not reach out to you in love?
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If you die without Christ, it'll be because you rejected the truth, because you have chosen to have your own way, because you said,
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I don't want God having his way in my life. And that means that if you've accepted him, and you've gotten the same amount of grace, then what's the difference between you and the person who rejects
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Christ? You must be better. You must be more sensitive.
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You must be more intelligent. Something, you've got to find the difference in the one who is redeemed.
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And hence, grace is not the distinguishing factor.
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Chosen to resist, deliberately, willfully, the truth and the opportunity of knowing
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God as your personal Savior through his Son, Jesus Christ. That's the way it is. So the question comes, can anybody be saved?
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Anybody called by God? Anybody the Lord God draws? Well, can you be saved anytime you want to?
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No, you can't. You cannot be saved until you are convicted of the need of salvation, that the Spirit of God works in your life, and you sense the call of God in your life.
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That will not come in everybody's life the same way. Well, let's talk about this whole issue, for example, of free will.
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Hold on a second now. See, this is where people get confused listening to Dr.
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Stanley, because sometimes he says some right things, and then he puts it together with pure tradition that makes for confusion.
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So, no one can get saved until they are convicted of the Holy Spirit, of their need of salvation.
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Now, before this, he had had this whole thing about how children are convicted of a need of Jesus and not really of sin, and I'm like, excuse me, the whole idea of conviction apart from sin, you know, conviction of a need but not a conviction of sin,
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I just go, no way. I have no idea what in the world that's all about. Way off on that one.
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But even here, okay, you can't get saved until you're convicted of sin, and that's going to come into people's lives in a different way.
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How did that come into Pharaoh's life? How did that come into the Egyptian foot soldier who gets squished by the falling water of the
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Red Sea? How does that, you're saying that that comes into every person's life equally today?
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Even in this, even in this situation in our world today, that's an equal thing with everybody?
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Sorry, that doesn't work again. You know, it's true, you can't just get saved.
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The work of the Holy Spirit, absolutely positively required, no question about that, but how are you putting that together with what else has been said?
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Doesn't make any sense. Let me ask you this. How free is a man's free will? Now, when I say man, I'm talking about men and women.
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How free is a person's free will? Somebody says, well, a free will means you have the freedom to do anything you please. You believe that?
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I certainly hope you don't, because listen, when you take this to its fullest, here's what you're saying. If any person on the face of this earth has an absolutely, perfectly, complete free will, that means that they are no longer subject to God.
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God is the sovereign of this universe, and listen, while man has a free will, it is a limited free will.
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And at that point we go, yo, yeah, limited free will, but what's it limited by?
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It's amazing, so many people, they see, they have to see that the
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Bible teaches that our will is a creaturely will, and whatever you want to do with the word free, it has to be linked to the word creature and fallen and slave and dead, okay?
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And so they don't have any problem saying what Charles is saying right now, except when it comes to the one issue of salvation itself.
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Only that one issue. Then all of a sudden that not -so -free will becomes all -powerful.
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No one has an ultimately free will. The most vile, wicked, personal face of this earth can only do what
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God allows them to do. Now, why God allows some people to do some things he does, I don't know. But they can only do what
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God allows them to do. Not necessarily what God wills them to do, but what God allows them to do. No one has an absolutely free will.
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All wills are subject to the sovereign, ultimate, omnipotent will of the living
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God. Otherwise, we'd have real tragedy everywhere, and God would not be the supreme sovereign of this universe.
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So therefore, no one has an ultimately free will. Well, what about this whole idea of many called, few are chosen?
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I want you to hear this very clearly. God would never choose to save these and choose to send someone to hell.
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Now, notice that's the second time he said it. And he tries to make this issue of equal ultimacy.
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He tries to make the extension of mercy and grace to the elect equal to, an exact parallel to, the reprobation of the non -elect.
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And so the issue of guilt, the nature of grace is undeserved. The issue of punishment, the fact that in one,
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God is extending this effort to a rebel sinner and has to do resurrection.
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He doesn't have to do anything to the reprobate for them to go to hell. They're already deserving of that.
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So you have this equal ultimacy, this equality stuff. And unfortunately, he tries to make them parallel to one another.
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That's not true. Well, yeah, we would agree. This equality is not true.
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That's not what we believe. And I don't know anybody who does, but that's the problem with the presentation.
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Never. So he doesn't make those kind of choices, but God does choose to save some people in spite of themselves.
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He said, now, wait a minute. Now, what does, wait a minute. Now you mean to tell me that God work up against the person's will? Yes, he will.
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Will he break that person's will? No, I don't think that's the issue. Now listen to this. This is, this is funny because, you know,
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I don't mean to be funny in a mocking sense, but the inconsistency here is seen by someone who's forced by scripture to see certain things that go against his tradition.
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And he's willing to go against his tradition some, but not all the way. You know, a true libertarian is going to go, no, no, no, no.
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You can't say this. You've got to, you've got to keep it all equal. And he's not willing to do that because he's talking about the context here.
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If you didn't listen to it, it's Paul and Paul getting knocked off his horse, the conversion of Paul. And you know, that's not exactly the same way that God works with everybody.
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So it's obvious that God had a purpose in saving Paul and he's working against Paul's will.
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And the libertarian is going to go, I never violated it, but he wants to try. Listen to, trying to hold two opposites together really is very difficult here.
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These and choose to send someone to hell. Never. So he doesn't make those kinds of choices, but God does choose to save some people in spite of themselves.
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He said, now, wait a minute. Now, I just, wait a minute. Now you mean to tell me that God work up against the person's will? Yes, he will.
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Will he break that person's will? No, I don't think that's the issue, but will he work against the person's will? Thank God he does.
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Most of us wouldn't be saved. Thank God he works against their will. Does he recognize their will, acknowledge their will, respect their will?
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Yes, he does. What do you mean, acknowledge our will, respect our will? How about renew our will? How about free our will?
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How about cause regeneration so that we have new desires? Is it okay to say those things for the libertarian?
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No, it's not. But that does not mean that God's just going to back off and say, be my guest, have it any way you want to.
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No, because he said, it's only begotten son of this world that you and I may be saved. Now listen, the spirit of God came into this world to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
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And conviction, friend, is pressure. If you ever felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit, you know what pressure is like.
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And the spirit of God knows how to turn it up. When the apostle Paul fell down blind, smitten by Almighty God, on that day, what happened?
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God's conviction came in a climactic form, struck him down, identified who he was.
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And then they ask you a question. How many of you think, lying back in the sand, talking to the Lord Jesus Christ and hearing
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Jesus say, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting, how many of you believe he could have said, well, I don't want to be a part of that, nothing doing,
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God, forget it. I don't think he could have said no. Well, I agree.
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He couldn't have said no. But let's, let's then take that to its conclusion.
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Nobody, when the spirit of God chooses to bring one of his elect people to salvation, is able to withstand that thing called resurrection power.
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Yeah. Paul illustrates for us the truth that God is sovereign in the matter of salvation.
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Maybe his own experience then impacted how he viewed that subject.
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Maybe that should be kept in mind. We read Romans 8 and 9 and things like that. 877 -753 -3341.
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877 -753 -3341. We have one caller online. We'll be taking your phone calls on the dividing line after we take this break.
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We'll be right back. At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself.
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It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the reformers, the doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of reformed evangelicalism itself.
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Join Alpha and Omega Ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue.
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Justification, the heart of the gospel. With pastor and co -author of Holy Scripture, the ground and pillar of our faith,
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David King. The president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Founders Conference, Tom Askell.
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New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of Evangelical Answers, Eric Svensson.
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The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of Grace to You, Philip Johnson. Nationally renowned reformed
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Christian artist, Steve Camp. And the founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and author, Dr. James White.
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Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton Ballroom on November 6th, 2004 beginning at 845
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AM. Seating is limited so order your tickets now at aomin .org. That's www .aomin
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.org. Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the word of God.
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James White in his book, The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true
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Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.
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You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .aomin
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.org. Convictions once held and died for among Bible believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent
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Auburn Avenue Movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?
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Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the reformed scholars who opposed them in error?
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Does Trinitarian Baptism make one a member of the new covenant? Are Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?
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Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5, 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between Dr.
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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue Movement and New St.
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Andrews College, as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.
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Additional information and tickets can be ordered at aomin .org. That's www .aomin .org.
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Okay. All right. Okay. Some folks just want to keep going. Anyway, what was
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I saying? Oh, yes. Charles, he didn't say anything about John 6. There was no attempt there to deal with the text, to address the text, to even listen to what the text is saying at all.
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So, I just played it just simply for an example of what's out there and the extremely confusing, let's face it, confusing presentations there.
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Even when you hear truth being said, as soon as you insert that absolute human tradition of libertarianism, it all turns to muddle.
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It's just who knows what in the world is being said. 877 -753 -3341.
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You need to get on the lines because we have lines open right now.
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Let's go ahead and go back east and talk with Joseph. Hi, Joseph. Hello, Dr.
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White. How are you? Good. How are you doing? Doing good. Great. I'm calling, kind of referencing the
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John 6 thing. The other night I got on and I listened to it. I figured I'd read the book before you talk about it or listen to the sermon.
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So, I'm listening to it. I'm always amazed when people prepare for debates and you do all your preparation.
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I'm like, oh my gosh. But after listening to that, I felt like I could debate
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Charles Stanley on the topic of the Reformation. Well, I don't know, honestly, if Dr.
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Stanley has addressed these issues in a fuller form or if he's one of those who just, you know, because he's well known for his discussion of what?
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Of once saved, always saved. That's, you know, when I think of Charles Stanley and the books he's written, that's the one that stands out in my mind.
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Well, you know, I'm one of those folks that really, really believes that you have no grounds or basis for that outside of recognizing the perfection of the work of Christ.
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You just, you can't put the two of them together. And so, you know, I don't know if he's ever done sermons.
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The few times that I see him on television or something, you know, he's more talking relationships or things like that.
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He's not doing the theology thing. It just doesn't seem to be, you know, a theme.
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In other words, I have not heard him do what Adrian Rogers does or Paige Patterson, where they will specifically do anti -Calvinistic sermons or series of sermons and specifically go after that particular issue.
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Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I don't sit around listening to Charles Stanley.
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I just don't. Yeah, because unfortunately, well, see, Adrian Rogers, I mean, what he does, the attack,
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I mean, Charles Stanley might as well attack because by preaching the way he does, you know, where it's muddled and confusing,
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I mean, he's doing the same amount of damage, you know? Well, he's, you know, certainly a person, well, let's put it this way, a person listening to that or a person listening to Adrian Rogers, both of them are going to come away confused, but one's going to come away with a prejudice that the other one may not have.
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Let's at least, let's extend, you know, mercy where mercy needs to be extended.
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A person who listens to Adrian Rogers or Paige Patterson attacking
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Calvinism is going to be much more likely at the very mention of the word to have those emotional walls come up because here's these great leaders and they've warned me against this, at least in this context.
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And I could be wrong. Maybe Stanley does this all the time and I just don't know it. No one's ever pointed out to me. Though normally when someone goes off on Calvinism, someone drops me a note and says, hey, you might want to listen to this.
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So I don't know. But at least in this situation, he's not using some of the chief buzzwords.
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And yeah, there are certain things being said here. God would never make that kind of choice. But still, you could very,
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I think, easily talk with someone and say, well, yeah, God doesn't make that kind of equal choice because of the fact that we're all dead in sin.
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He doesn't have to. And go on from there. You wouldn't have the same level of prejudice involved in trying to speak with someone who's listened to that kind of teaching.
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But obviously, to me, what is very, very troubling and very difficult to understand in a preacher is how can you prepare a sermon?
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And, you know, when I prepare a sermon and I, you know, we were talking about this in channel. I consider myself a very poor preacher.
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I really do. I'm more of a teacher. It's preaching involves much more organization than I seem to be capable of of of providing.
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I'm much more comfortable doing what I did Sunday. I have a I have a text. When I preached
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Sunday morning, John eight, I simply had the Greek text in front of me and I printed notes in the columns. I took out my
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Bible program, printed out large print so I could see it real easy. And I would bold certain sections.
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I want to comment on the Greek text and I'd have little notes in the in the columns, three pages, two sermons.
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That's what I did. And but you still have to prepare. And it would seem to me that as a person was preparing to make these comments, unless he's just doing it completely off the cuff, no preparation, no thought, just going back to something he learned in seminary, you know, 30, 40, 50 years ago, whatever it might be, at least in preparation, you're going to have to wrestle with these things at some point in years and years of preaching.
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And yet I don't see any evidence that a lot of these folks have ever really, really done so. And that that I just don't understand.
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Yeah, well, I and I had I had called the show a couple of weeks ago and asking, you know, what do I do being in a regular
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Baptist church? And I actually met with my pastor a week ago. And, you know, in preparation,
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I listened to the the old dividing line about Adrian Rogers, not Romans eight and nine, the purpose driven life discussion.
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And then I was also reading MacArthur's Ashamed of the Gospel. And so I presented kind of a two point presentation to him, one about reform theology.
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You know, are you familiar with these points? Ask the questions, you know, which was kind of,
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I guess, the same kind of family response and just kind of confusing. And then I posed the questions, you know, about the purpose driven movement, which our church is pretty much following and, you know, just all this stuff.
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And then in discussions with my father, where I'll sit down and he has these these hard questions.
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Well, you know, just, you know, God's causing this to this and, you know, and trying to answer this.
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And he constantly will be like, well, everything I've ever heard, you know. And so in light of the fact that people like Rogers and Stanley, these, you know, hugely popular preachers, you know, are preaching all this, like, where do you see, like, give me your opinion of like a vision of what has to happen in America or in evangelicalism as a whole, you know, to get people back?
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Like, and I know maybe it's something like the Founders Movement or like, is it just good old fashioned plugging away, you know, day to day?
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Well, you and I, what we have to do is that that one's easy to answer what you and I have to do.
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You and I have to be faithful where we are to do what we can to live consistently in light of the truth and to teach it to others when we are given the opportunity to do so.
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We need to try to as much as we possibly can. And sometimes this is not possible.
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Look at Paul, get ourselves out of the way, in essence, in the sense of we don't want this to be a this group versus that group type thing as much as possible.
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We can't always stop that. We look at Paul, we see his enemies attacked him personally. And so those things come in.
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What we have to do is remain faithful to the truth and to show a passionate concern and love where we are.
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Now, the difference between that answer and the answer is of how will we, could we ever see the church in America in general being much more focused upon the divine truths of scripture rather than upon all the isms and fluffy stuff that seems to so easily distract us?
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That's a whole different issue because I really believe in the sovereignty of God in the handling of nations.
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And if this nation, and I believe that it is, is under the judgment of God, I don't know how it couldn't be given the hatred of God's law, the hatred of God's truth, the absolute willingness to spit in God's face when
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God says you will not engage in homosexuality, we say we will bless it.
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And when God says this is marriage, we say no, we're going to pervert it. And when we say this is how young people are to behave sexually, we say we're going to encourage every kind of perversion in the world.
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And when God says I create life, we say we're going to have partial birth abortion. I mean, this nation is absolutely under the judgment of God.
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And what are we to do when we live in a nation that's under the judgment of God? We are to be faithful in the midst of the trials and difficulties, no matter what that calls us to.
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And that's not an easy thing. Now, could God grant repentance?
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Yes, he could. Generally though, the Bible seems to indicate for us that that kind of repentance generally is connected to what?
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National disaster. I mean, when did Israel finally repent? And I'm not, please,
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I'm not making the connection here. America is not a theocracy. It's not Israel. But when did the nation as a whole recognize that the need for repentance?
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It was when some foreign army was set up camp in Jerusalem, basically. And that generally is what it takes for people to start seeing through the foolishness that people are holding to.
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And so, you know, is that what's going to take? Could God simply grant repentance through blessing?
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Yes. But I I'm just not one of those folks that expects that. Certainly, that's why
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I'm probably not on the channel between 20 and 22 here in Phoenix, because I just that I don't see that happening.
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Instead, I see further struggles and more and more need on the part of believers to stand firm for God's right to be king, for God's right to say this is
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I am your creator. I'm your maker. I'm the one who formed you. And therefore, I have the right to write the owner's manual concerning how you as an individual are to live and how you as a nation are to live.
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And we're going to have to stand strong for that. And it's going to cost us more and more in the future to do so.
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There's just no two ways about it. But in your situation, you called yours a regular Baptist church.
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And I assume you mean by that. Well, I mean, it's the Southern Baptist Church, but right, obviously, you know, because there is a specific regular
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Baptist. There is a denomination by that name. But it's so difficult because like on a in a in a debate sense, if I was sitting there with my pastor and presenting these questions, there's there's no response.
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The audience would see like so clearly that he has no response. He has no, you know, comments on that stuff.
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But for me, you know, I'm twenty five and I'm in about one more year. I'll be ready to enter seminary.
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I'm training to be a pastor. And so for me, it's like, who are you? You know that, you know,
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I mean, I would question, you know, Rogers and Stanley. And it's like, well, who are you to question this, you know?
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And I say, well, prove me wrong. I mean, well, we have sadly within denominations, especially we have the we have the tendency of engaging in man worship and within Southern Baptist circles.
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Let's let's be very, very honest. What makes you a celebrity within Southern Baptist circles is the number of baptisms on the long haul that you have.
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If you have a TV ministry, a growing church, you plant other churches and you've got a lot of baptisms.
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Your theology doesn't really matter. That's just all there is to it. Your theology doesn't matter.
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You're not going to be challenged on those things. Being theologically adept and solid is not what makes you a star, shall we say, in the
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Southern Baptist Convention. It just doesn't work that way. And that's that's a shame. But that's that's the way that it is.
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I go to Liberty University. Oh, yes. And guess who's coming back for the homecoming weekend?
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I don't know. Rick Warren. Oh, really? Liberty has totally embraced that.
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They had this huge super conference last fall and really embraced the purpose of a movement and stuff. But I'm the guy that I'm hoping to get an internship with Alpha and Omega next summer.
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Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Well, you know, I hate to keep telling you this, but, you know, you're going to have to find some support for that.
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Oh, I will do that. I will raise my own support. Because we are we are. Yeah. AOMN is going, hey, what?
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What? He's in channel going, what's this guy talking about? I work. I work for knowledge and training only.
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You're going to have to get past Zeke first. But anyway, that's that's a whole different story. Hey, you know, man,
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I hear what you're saying. And I really I do feel for those who are in non founders,
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Southern Baptist churches. I was there. You know, I I was in one of one of the mega churches when
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I really came to understand the doctrines of grace were. And the thing that drove me nutty, the thing that eventually drove me out was not that the pastor did not at times.
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And in fact, for about a year or so, really preach some solid stuff.
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But that when I eventually learned, eventually left in the years before that,
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I would hear I remember a sermon on John Isaiah six. Wow.
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One of the best sermons. I mean, even today, if I were to hear that sermon again, I would go, wow, you know, just just incredible.
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So powerful. But then two weeks later, the Gospel of Mark, you've got pure libertarianism and all the rest.
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You've got a complete contradiction within two weeks of what was said on, you know, on that same subject.
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And it was the inconsistency over time that eventually drove me to to have to leave because I was already engaged in apologetics.
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And when you're in apologetics, you can't you can't allow for inconsistency. That's just you can't point your finger at somebody else and say what you believe here contradicts what you believe here, which contradicts what the
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Bible says here. At the same time, have the same thing going on within your own your own home church.
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And that was my experience. So I do know I do know the frustration my wife can testify to you concerning the many times
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I would come home and very frustrated because of what had just taken place.
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So I do understand. But God calls us to be faithful. And I did not just jump ship either, by the way, for those who are saying, you know, the first time that pastor offended white, he was out there.
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Nope. It took it took a lot to get me out of that church.
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It really, really. I mean, God basically had to cut those strings because I was going to put up with the frustration as long as I could.
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And it was something else that happened that eventually was very that, you know, made the cut very, very clear.
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Very much so. So anyway, hey, keep on the straight and narrow. And thanks for giving us a call. I look forward to seeing you on the cruise.
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All right. God bless. Excuse me, everyone. Just a second here.
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It only takes just a moment. And boom. OK. All right. We just cast
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Mr. Dudek into pros purgatory for calling me church hopper white.
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That that will not be allowed in channel. And you you will be cast into purgatory to be cleansed in in cyber world for doing things like that.
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It was mentioned and should be mentioned that I sort of addressed a little bit of that on on Sunday in the in the sermons in regards to John chapter eight, because it does seem to me that if Jesus is our example, if if we are to view truth the way that Christ viewed truth and if we are to speak to to religious people.
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OK, I mean, that's that's just honestly the way we've got to try to express it. If we're to speak to religious people, we need to have him as our example.
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And, you know, when when the Lord spoke to the Pharisees.
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When he engaged in controversy in John six and John eight and John nine and John ten,
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John just keeps on going and going. He didn't do it the way that modern.
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Postmodernists think we we should do it. And I think you might want to listen to to what the
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Lord did there. It was is incredible to me, even as I was as I was preaching, I was struck
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Sunday night how many times the Lord could have stopped the escalation.
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He could have by the way he responded and see the temptation for me would be always to do that.
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People going for you, what do you mean you you're the you're the debater, you're always trying to get people.
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No, it's not the case. That's not the case. But I'm sitting here and you can just see so clearly in the responses of the scribes and Pharisees, you can their blood pressure is it, you know, is over 200 and their rationality has gone out the window.
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But Jesus has a goal he's getting to. There's there's some things he needs to expose. There's some claims he needs to make.
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And he's going to get there and nobody's going to stop him. And it was it was it was amazing.
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This is not a deep exegetical study of John eight, because I would have stopped.
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I wouldn't have gotten past verse 24. I probably would have done 21 to 24 in two sermons if we were going to really get into the exegesis.
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But there's just so much in in the text of John eight, especially in regards to the reversal of basically what
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Charles Stanley was saying earlier. And what I mean by that is you have such clear, compelling assertions on the part of of the
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Lord about the inabilities of man. You have him saying, why do you not understand what
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I am saying is because you cannot hear my word. You lack the ability to hear my word.
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Well, where are we going to get that ability? Well, you choose to people, please think about that for a second.
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You know, when people come into channel and they've got their libertarian glasses on and you show them these passages, well, yeah, you're a slave to sin as long as you choose to commit it.
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But you can just choose to stop being a slave to sin, you know. And then verse 47, he who is of God, if I speak the truth, why do you not believe me?
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And those those words are not spoken out of frustration. Why don't you guys believe me?
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It's if I speak truth, why do you not believe me? He who is of God hears the words of God.
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For this reason, you do not hear them because you are not of God. Jesus wasn't going. I just can't believe you guys.
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I'm just amazed at you guys. I thought for sure you'd believe because what
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I'm saying is so clear. It's not what he says. He's not amazed. He's not shocked. You know, we'll have people come into the into the channel and you know,
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I answered every question this guy had and I gave him everything and I had read your books, you know, as if I've ever written a book set of do this, this, this, this, and immediately this is going to happen.
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Everyone who knows me knows I would never do that. That that that ain't me. That that's not what
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I believe in any way, shape or form. And so they'll come in and they'll say, I gave it my best shot.
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And my response is, well, praise God. He was glorified by your proclamation.
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Yeah, but he said this and he said that or she said this and and rejected what I had to say.
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And I'm like, yeah, I know. Do you ever notice that the Lord went through that a lot?
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Ever notice, you know, John six, 5 ,012, John eight, we believe to, we want to stone you.
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John 10, gracious words to we want to stone you again. You know, eventually
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John 19, we're going to get you. Crucifixion. You ever notice that sort of how the, the, the direction here and people don't get that.
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And it's like, so you're a better preacher than Jesus is. You expect to have some better.
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Well, the apostles did. Well, sometimes they did. Sometimes they didn't. Uh, Paul got ridden out of town on a rail that stone left for dead, had people chasing around, bothering them all the time.
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Here's the, the great apostle of, of the gospel and look at all that he had to go through.
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We need to have both a biblical perspective and we have a biblical perspective. We're going to stand back and go, you know what? The world, especially the world of evangelicalism has a really wacky idea of what success is.
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It's very much a worldly influenced one. No two ways about it. No two ways about it.
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Well, I'm not sure where you'd be doing Thursday evening. Um, maybe something will happen between now and then.
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I don't know. As far as somebody's going to say something about John six again, or I, you know,
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I don't know. Maybe the reformed Catholics will, will blow a fuse. Maybe, um, maybe finally
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Daniel Peterson after I posted that, uh, that, uh, uh, wave file
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MP3 file on the blog today about him saying, I'll take them on head to head anytime in the day.
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Maybe finally he'll say, you know what? It's time to do that. Time to stand up. I don't know. We'll find out. But, uh, we'll be here
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Lord willing at 7 PM, uh, Eastern daylight time here on the dividing line
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Thursday evening. We hope to see you then till then God bless. I've been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries.
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If you'd like to contact us, call us at 6 0 2 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at P O box 3 7 1 0 6
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Phoenix, Arizona, 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the worldwide web at AOMIN .org
59:47
that's A O M I N dot O R G where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.