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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white Well, I just checked 682 comments in the comm box on the

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Jimmy Akin blog The go get them boys Jimmy Akin comm box 682 comments

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I think I deserve some some credit for that somehow How to get an entire mob really angry over over absolutely positively nothing amazing amazing stuff

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I'm gonna be playing some stuff from Jimmy Akin today, which I had intended to do last week

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In fact, I had come in I had already Well, I listened to this particular to the

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Bible answer man discussion Last week and in fact, it already started playing this and Listened I believe last

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Wednesday to the whole thing while writing. So before All this stuff blew up.

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It was already my intention to do so it only made it more logical to continue it In light of what has taken place if you have not been following the blog

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Last week set all new records for utter nastiness from a false religious group aimed

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My direction and this time it was the Roman Catholics and normally is I mean, you know

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King James only folks are always nasty to me But there's so few of them that that even if they tried to get a mob to get

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If you a little bit like like when some liberals here in Phoenix try to get together and you know They have four people down there

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It's really embarrassing and and you know all the media shows up, of course And then tries to make it look like there's 40 or 50 or 400 of them when there's only four

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But anyway, that's neither here nor there but as far as major religious groups go, yeah, the the

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Catholics good this and When the Pope died and I I dared to point out that just being a nice old man doesn't get you into heaven

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Not only were the Catholics all mad at me But so were a bunch of people who are not actually historically

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Protestants there. It's not Catholics by taste. They they're not into Pope's and Liturgies and stuff like that, but they really don't reject

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Rome's theology. That's the problem with a lot of folks today, but That got really nasty and I got hot and heavy but nothing like nothing like this past week

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It's been pretty pretty amazing that I would dare to raise Substantive issues questions concerning sola scriptura the canon

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Indulgences justification, you know stuff like how you're made right with God In response to Frank Beckwith how dare

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I I do something like that. It's it's just it's beyond Beyond all charitable activity see and of course then of course the big thing

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I put up to Absolutely spot -on perfect pictures.

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They were just absolutely Embodied the essence of the hypocrisy of The people who are out there going you need to be more charitable you stupid idiot moron

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That's exactly In fact the funny thing is I've been thinking about I hadn't mentioned this aside for the fact that the commentary with the pictures was so Plain and so clear has been ignored by everybody.

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I Posted that first picture before it just had Arabic on the sign and I had posted it while I was out in in Hawaii speaking on a cruise out there and No one complained about this or if they did

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I? You didn't bother sending them over to me, but nobody complained about the fact that I posted these things that picture and What I did then was

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I said these are angry dividing line fans who were Upset that for a whole week there wasn't gonna be a dividing line and did anybody have a cow over that no nobody had a cow over that because it wouldn't help them to prop up their own position to have a cow over that but I Think that's

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I think that picture is absolutely hilarious. I mean it's hilarious These are people who've never read a word of Salman Rushdie, and they're just so into it, man

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You can just tell that that's that their emom has got gotten him going and must have passed out

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Jelly beans or something during the service to get the sugar levels up, and they're just having a blast out there

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They have no idea what they're yelling and screaming about but they're having a good old time, and that's a mob mentality

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You know that's just the way it is. I think that's funny because it's irrational and that's why it was perfectly appropriate

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To post that in regards to people who were acting in the exact same way just for a different religion

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Anybody who goes we're making all Catholics out to be terrorists I'm sorry, but there is no way anyone can be quite that dull you cannot possibly

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Be quite that dull and to ignore the context which was posted the words that were added that were right there on the page next to it so anyway

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Absolutely perfectly nailed that and then Jimmy Akin comes along and couldn't have helped me out more

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To illustrate the hypocrisy of these folks, but to do what he did couldn't have couldn't have helped out more

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Anybody who just sits back. I mean there are Catholics who have had to admit You know what you know there was an obvious point.

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You know I mean if he was to be consistent He must hate every single political cartoon. That's ever been produced because they're all the exact same thing and the better the cartoon

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When you know what makes a good cartoon is that it captures the essence It's like angel angels cartoons.

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He listens. He captures the essence of what's going on, and then you caricature the hypocrisy you caricature the inconsistency see and that's what makes it funny and You know

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Jimmy Akin can't handle that well. What can I say so anyway? It's been a fascinating week of time no no two ways about it had no idea

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When I went on that bike ride Monday morning and listened to that to stand reason program. What was going to?

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You know Take place in the rest of the rest of the week absolutely an amazing thing

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But sadly the one thing that it has done for most people no one's talking about Beckwith anymore

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No one is outside of have you noticed. What's already happened. There's almost a hagiography A hagiography,

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I guess would be a right now that has developed In regards to Frank Beckwith in one week in other words

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It was fascinating. I pointed this I may have pointed this on there when I went on the Catholic answers forums

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Right after he had appeared there are people like Catholic dude who were criticizing him because they recognized

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He just didn't do a good job if he was trying to be a Catholic apologist now He denies he wants to be a

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Catholic apologist which of course is why he's going on Catholic answers in the journey home But he denies he's doing that So you know

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I guess that means well, okay, so I wasn't a good Catholic apologist. You know I'm new at this And but I'm not really

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Catholic apologist anyway, so you can't hold me to any particularly high standard But there were Catholics on the board who were criticizing him then he showed up and all of a sudden all criticism ended well folks

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Whether he's there or not did he do a good job, or did he not do a good job? Did he answer the questions were the questions fair of course they were fair?

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And I think what really happened, and we played all this last week of course, but especially when

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Greg Cokel asked that question that started the second hour that demonstrated that he had been doing some serious reading in regards to the concept of merit and the concept of indulgences and the treasury of merits and and all these things and he asks that Thorough question and Beckwith responds with is there a question?

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And then well you know I thought I didn't expect this and I thought this would be a safe place from you to share my journey and blah blah blah

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I think that's where the the you know the tide shifted shall we say in essence and So the question is did he do a good job or not whether he's listening or not your answer should be the same hello

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If if you say one thing because you think someone isn't ever gonna see what you're saying And then when they show up you say something else

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Maybe this is a term. We need to do basic vocabulary 101 on that's called hypocrisy

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Okay, if you're if you're gonna You know say something then be honest or straightforward about it right off the bat, okay?

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And if they were right and criticizing him before he showed up, then why did that criticism all sudden stop?

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and now all of a sudden Everybody's just you know so welcoming and welcome home to Rome And you did such a wonderful job and Coco was so mean to you and blah blah blah blah blah

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That's what you're getting and what does that tell you if it changes all of a sudden where did truth go?

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truth flew right out the window What can

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I say so? There's almost this this this Hagerography Developing about him already.

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You know he's he's sort of a martyr now because He's been criticized for coming home to Rome.

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I mean the amazing thing is they want to use him as another

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Pauline convert, you know the light comes down from heaven and and Here the president of ETS which means he knew everything there was to know about what it means to be a convinced evangelical

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Blah blah blah blah blah, and now he's come home to Rome see and That's what that's what they want this to look like but it doesn't work that way it just doesn't it doesn't function that way and You just know that they want to use it in this way they want to want to you know the next volume of surprise by truth you know and And all the rest of stuff

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But if you're gonna do that then the guy really has to have known what he was talking about he has to have been a Convinced evangelical he has to have known what the issues were and sadly folks

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There are so many evangelicalism today that just don't they it's not that they are

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Non -catholics by choice and by conviction and by knowledge they're non -catholics by taste and predilection there's non -catholics by tradition and That's totally different than actually being a non -catholic because you know what

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Catholicism is you know what your faith is and you recognize that the two are not compatible with one another and You are passionate about the differences

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You're passionate about a perfect work of atonement you're passionate about a perfect work of justification

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That it's not a legal fiction. I mean man Anybody who can allow that kind of blasphemy of the right of God as judge

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To declare his people righteous and the basis the perfect work of Christ and their union with him as a legal fiction

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Let that just flow off of their tongue You know within just a matter of weeks of becoming a convert really makes you wonder if there had ever been any passionate trust in that finished work before Because man alive,

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I cannot imagine what it would be like if I were in his shoes to make that kind of a

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Statement. I really really really don't know how that works. That's just Beyond me.

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So anyway So I've got some material I want to share here before I get to callers online so I go ahead and get to them in a moment, but I Want to go back and I want to continue looking at the

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Bible Answer Man Broadcast and I do so in light of the fact that Catholic Answers has for a very long time

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Styled this as a debate and over and over again. I've said it is not a debate

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Oh, you're just you just you lost and so you're just trying to blah blah blah blah blah As I was listening to it first of all

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I was very thankful as I was listening to it that they distributed because I thought went very very well, but more than that in the back of my mind,

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I'm going why Why is this? Why do they keep pressing a 12 year old radio program rather than pressing us do more debates?

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I mean if they're right about all this stuff and if I'm as stupid and vile and despicable and as much of a troll as I say

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I am you would think they'd be lining up on on this radio program To demonstrate how much of an idiot

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I am and that doesn't happen and they'd be wanting to do debates remember, they're the ones who first challenged me in 1990 to debate them and Etc.

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Etc. So I'm sitting here thinking okay, what? What is what is gonna cause what's what's really behind all this and so as I was

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I was listening to it Especially guy in the second hour all of a sudden I figured out

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Exactly why it is that they want to keep pushing this and they and from Jimmy Akins perspective

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I'm gonna make this prediction. He would prefer it. This is the only thing that's ever made available He I don't think he ever wants to do a debate at all.

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You know, why? As I was listening as I was writing I started sort of doing some mental figuring

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And so when I got back, I think that evening or I think is that evening I fired up the second hour in the second hour

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We discussed justification and the first hour I'd say it was pretty even time wise on the subject of solo scriptura but the second hour was on justification and As I was writing

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I could recognize there was a very large disparity As far as time goes and so I sat down and I fired up two timers on my computer

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Fired up the waveform and I started started measuring. I started taking measurements started

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Measuring the amount of time each one of us spoke during that second hour Here's what I typed

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I said in the second hour of the BAM program a discussion of justification took place before callers began to be

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Taken I and Akin were given time to present our views during that time period James Akin was given a total of 18 minutes

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And 39 seconds to present his side. I was given 11 minutes and 19 seconds

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That means Akin had over seven minutes more time than I was allowed That is of the time that was allotted for this vital discussion

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Akin got 62 .2 % of it while I got 37 .8 % almost a two -thirds versus one -third split

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No wonder they want to call this thing a debate if this were a formal debate It would mean that'd be like Akin getting a 38 minute opening statement to my own 22 minute opening statement the rest of the hour

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Only widened the gap due to callers with Akin ending up for just that one hour with 23 minutes and 55 seconds of airtime to my own 12 minutes and 38 seconds

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That is he got over 65 % of the time. I got 35 % of the time

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So if you want to call something a debate Where one side gets to talk two -thirds of time to one -third of the other side.

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I Can see why they want to promote this as a debate, but see that's the problem is that in a debate

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It's not supposed to work that way now for some reason Rome needs that remember the Tim Staples debate on papal infallibility

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Remember that even though prior to the debate I stood behind The curtain up there.

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There was a stage in Fullerton and I met with the moderator Jerry Usher who you hear on Catholic answers live all the time and Tim Staples and we talked about the format of the debate and one of the things that was emphasized was that in cross -examination if You are doing the questioning

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That that's all you do you ask questions. You don't argue. You don't make statements you ask questions and So what happened when we got to the cross -examination period?

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Tim Staples begins a statement I'm just gonna take a second. No. No don't worry Just just gonna take a second starts a statement to answer the last thing that I had said and of course all the students are like You know he gets on this statement violation of rule number one

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Jerry Usher does nah thing then I Believe someone counted up.

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I haven't taken time to do it. They counted four or five distinct questions So what he does is he makes these big long questions are filled with statements filled with statements

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Just like Jerry Matatix is always doing all this rhetorical stuff before he ever gets to a question And I have to interrupt him and try to respond to that what's not a question well

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You're supposed to be asking questions So what you're saying is you're violating the rules here with that and I'm gonna respond what you said and four or five questions

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I believe we had 12 minutes as I recall in the cross -examination period so four or five questions in 12 minutes and then when you listen to Now now that now his time ends now

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It's my time to ask questions if I recall the gentleman who counted the four or five for him counted 41 for me 41 questions,

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I did not violate the rules. I asked questions and of course he melted down was stuttering and stammering and shaking and everything else because I'm sorry you can't defend papal infallibility and once you've now violated the rules up one side down the other

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In a in a very obvious way I tend to become a tad bit focused shall we say in the questioning that I am that I'm making and So you know they're that kind it seems that that Rome recognizes

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We need more time we are the infallible Church, but the infallible Church needs more time

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Than these heretics do to make our point and to prove that we're infallible see so You know we get two -thirds of the time you get one -third

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We can break all the rules. You know the question in fact. I'm gonna be putting some video up I've just Just found

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I I think That these are the oldest videotapes of any of my debates currently available now.

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I should mention something I'm going to be one of the two that I'm putting up Is of a man by name of Scott Butler now?

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I don't know what has happened to Scott Butler he seems to have sort of you know vanished off the off the scene a little bit, but Scott Butler Was one of the first people

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I ran into in fact Scott Butler was involved in the very first debate with Catholic answers and got into a fight with Catholic answers over who got the videotape of that debate and Scott Butler continues to have the videotape of my first debate to this very day.

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No one's ever seen it and Then he had the videotape of The debates with Mitch Pacwa the first two debates to do with Mitch Pacwa in January of 1991 in El Cajon, California very large

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Catholic Church on justification and the mass Now he still has those tapes unless he's done the

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Nixon thing with him, which I would would Certainly hope is not the case, but if he has then

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I would wonder why But Scott Butler has those videotapes, and I'm I am calling on Scott Butler To provide us with those videotapes to do what we have done with every

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Roman Catholic that we have ever videotaped something for we have Provided them with an unedited master that they have been able to do anything

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They want with and I'm calling on Scott Butler to release the tapes the videotapes of the first debate that I did with Jerry Manitakes in August of 1990 in Long Beach and the videotapes of the two debates at in El Cajon with Mitch Pacwa send us

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Raw footage that we can then put into DVD format We've done that with everybody else ask

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Mitch Pacwa ask everyone on Long Island when we did the videotaping They received a videotape at no cost or charge.

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He wants back when that happened. He want us to pay 5 ,000 bucks to get those tapes and So one of the people like I said

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The these tapes that I ran across I was looking for something else I was looking for actually the clip that's on the blog right now with Jerry Manitakes and the

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Marion stuff in regards to Steve Ray blog and I ran across the videotapes from the 1995 debate on the papacy where Rob Zins and I debated

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Robert St. Genes and Scott Butler and I'm putting two segments of that up because St.

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Genes had just done a rebuttal period and he had just gone after me big -time But Bob's just not the best speaker and it was boring

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I mean it was just it was just sort of monotone boring and Bob has never figured out how to use a clock because he's

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Always halfway through a word when his time goes out. He just stops and walks off. You know, there's never any conclusion

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There's no wrapping up. I'm watching the clock and want to try to wrap things up So there's at least a logical point where you stop so the first one that I'm going to post is my response at that point where I'm Going after the whole issue of the claims that have been made and things like that and then after that is

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Butler's rebuttal of me Where he's literally turning toward me and he's spitting he is he is yelling so loud that I was

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I I had to Literally keep from putting from doing a wipe my face routine of my hand

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Because he's completely losing it right at the end Yelling at me,

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I mean it was just it's an amazing thing to watch him get wound up wound up he's getting redder and redder and and then just blows up at the end and You will notice in those that I look very different than I do now

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I was I was riding 5 ,600 to over 6 ,000 miles a year on on the bike at that time long long rides

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You know plus hundred mile rides and stuff like that So I was skinny as a rail weight about 170 pounds and of course

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I've heard someone say that hey I'm getting 100 pounds just to intimidate his debate opponents It doesn't matter what

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I do, you know, they're gonna find a way to Go nuts about it. So anyway, those will be appearing probably starting tomorrow on the blog

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So keep an eye out for them, but it's just another example of Where at one point

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I say in the rebuttal I say now in fact if our opponents would stay in the room

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They might hear what our arguments are because they kept leaving That's the most amazing ever watched in my life

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Was was you know art Sippo gets up walks out while I'm talking Because he doesn't need to know what

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I have to say. He doesn't care what I have to say. He's the Roman Catholic I'm a heretic who cares and Here in in 1995 at Boston College St.

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Janice leaves the room while we're talking Butler leaves the room while we're talking They don't they don't you know

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How in the world are you supposed to respond what the other side has to say if you're not even listening? I've never done that and and the only person at least

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I can give some credit on this too I mean pack was never done that there's but I've had a number of Roman Catholic moments

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I've never done that but I've had an the only opponents I've ever had Who've walked out of the room while I was speaking during debate

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Roman Catholics You know the only ones nobody else has done it Muslims haven't King James only folks haven't

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Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons Nobody else has done it only Roman Catholics seem to have the feeling that they don't need to hear what the heretic has to say they already know it all and so we don't have to have to even bother with that and But At least

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Pat Madrid When we did the soul scripture debate in 1993 asked that the debate be stopped before the final

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Presentations because he needed to use the restroom again rather than just walking out while I'm doing mine

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He said um could we stop so that he wouldn't miss what I was having to say so I should mention that Just in passing because that was you know anyway alright

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Let's we've got a bunch of callers on to go to here And I believe the first one to call in anyways was

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Jeff. How you doing Jeff? I'm doing great. Dr. How you doing doing good good?

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I'm glad to be talking with the author of all that is evil in the And don't forget uncharitable at all points yes

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I'll be careful because I tried using that humor once of Jerry Manitakes remember in the very first debate

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I did with Jerry We were at the Coral House in Baldwin and there was a fire in the fireplace right behind us and so I made a joke

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About and I'm not feeling overly comfortable right next to the wooden fire like that ha ha ha ha ha and Jerry spent

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I don't know how long of his next rebuttal period talking about How Catholics had been killed by Protestants and all this stuff is like everybody's sitting in the audience going

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Jerry It was a joke hello You know I mean he can he can then turn around later and tell a really what

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I thought was off totally off -the -wall joke About when the woman was taken to adultery and Jesus says let you who without sin cast the first stone a

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Stone goes flying by Jesus, and he turns and says mom He tells that in the middle of a debate so he can do that But I can't you know like I said the double standards are absolutely incredible so anyway

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Before I get to the backwoods stuff. I just want to say that The Audio that you put up with I'm out of text that was really really fascinating a little of it.

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I got to say Even the first hour with him I would love to have him

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I listen to a debate between him and like a traditional Roman Catholic Well, I know yeah

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Yeah What's happening is Chris Arnzen is trying to get he and St. Genes on because St.

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Genes is probably one of the only people who would Take take Jerry on you're not going to ever see

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Jimmy Akin or Carl Keating or these guys taking on matics They just they're not going to do it And I would imagine once word gets out the

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St. Genes is considering it that he's a lot of pressures could be put on him, too Because basically right now the it seems to be the the

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Roman Catholic apologetics community Has gotten together and has said the way we're going to handle matics is to ignore him and Toto Nobody talked to him nobody debate him nobody dialogue with him nobody mentioned him except for Carl he can take a shot at him once a while, but Just completely marginalized him and don't let him

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We don't want to see people seeing us argue because obviously what this does is it demonstrates that our argument against solo scriptura

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Our main argument against solo scriptura actually doesn't work because we're arguing with someone who used to be on our side

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Now in regards to Beckwith I was interacting I think after you stopped posting on the stand to reason blog entry

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And I had a few observations. I found that fascinating as well One of the things

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I had mentioned on the in the one of the comment in the comment section was that it seems like?

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His pre -exist our back with pre -existing view of grace. It seems like he was impressed that Trent used grace

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I Went just because they said grace was necessary and I kind of likened it to the new perspective on Paul where Paul Where they say hey second pebble

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Judaism was gracious because they used the word great right and they're kind of impressed with that You know where I brought up You know where it says in Romans in a couple places that if you add works to grace, it's no longer great

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And I think that the response and that's what actually had a response Day or two ago

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This is an important big wielding back and forth. So it's not not all of it directly in reply to me

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But they wanted to say that if Christ is gracious and not works merits

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Because Christ does the work in you. Mm -hmm And this is one where I have to have a big thanks to you of about being consistent in your apologetic in your theology

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Where I said it was so if you take away perseverance of the same and you have everybody

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Be not everybody in Roman Catholic theology who comes under great Is going to be saved right?

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So there has to be something that's not You have to find the locus of what of the boasting in man not in in God because If you don't if you don't have persevere

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Preservation of the same are you if you don't have eternal security or at least a reformed view of eternal security

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What you have is that? You basically have to say that it's gracious because God did the grip it works in them

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But I I don't know why all these other people don't Don't do it.

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Don't do those work, right? Even though they were you know wasn't grace applied to them through the sacraments exactly the grace the grace while necessary is

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Insufficient to bring about the intention, which is the ultimate salvation of the elect of God It's it still requires the additional actions of man.

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It's the sits sort of what I call peanut butter grace It's spread all over everybody and I remember sitting in 1990

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I believe it was 1990 during the Paco. Yeah, I was during the Paco debates in January of 1990 in San Diego in Scott Butler's office, he's a real estate guy

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I was sitting in his office and we were discussing these things and one of the things he says well look we believe in Sola gratia we believe in grace alone.

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I said no you don't and you said what do you mean? I don't I said look and I raise this very issue the issue has never been the necessity of grace the issue has always been the sufficiency of grace and I've been honestly at least

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I'm consistent. I've been saying that for almost two decades now very very clearly and Sadly a large number of evangelicals

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Just just are not listening to things like that And so they run into you know, someone friendly to Rome and says oh look at Trent, you know

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Trent Anathematized anyone who said you could be saved outside the grace of Christ. Oh, that's wonderful.

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That's great I guess it's a whole lot better than I thought it was I've never met a legalist who says I'm a legalist or a heretic

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Or a Pelagian who says the

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Pelagian yeah, I think actually I did meet one once so I guess I can't say that But he was pretty weird.

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So yeah, exactly exactly the the ignorance of the main plain issues

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Sadly is just is being very clearly documented in the situation as it was back when

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John Paul died It's every once in a while something comes up. It turns a spotlight back on it

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And when we ask ourselves a question within American post evangelicalism, is it getting better or worse?

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There's only one answer I can give right now and ain't getting any better. So Yeah, Beckwith tried to he threw a thought out on the end of the comment section near towards the end now where he said

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You know kind of like the Bible is you know God's initiative, but like, you know men Participated in it, right and he wanted to say it was something

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Similar to that. It was just like a brief thought. Um, yeah, I saw that and I since I had not read the context of it

32:32

I didn't really know what in the world he was referring to now Yeah, yeah,

32:38

I think it's in that whole great is You know Christ is doing work in people kind of thing and you know,

32:45

I guess and for the people who did get great And don't do those work you

32:51

I they can't really explain it the same thing with the earlier with the purgatory and the

32:57

Treasury of Merit and it's like there's so many inconsistencies there. I I Really?

33:04

I I really am kind of at a loss to kind of explain like I think it's a

33:09

Philosophy professor once told me the way people generally reason is they get premises and they get conclusions and kind of work towards the middle

33:16

Yes And we all do that, but at the same time like there's so many inconsistencies there that You know, that's why the set of a contest thing was interesting because you can see okay you have

33:31

Roman Catholic presuppositions You're going to sit you're he's perhaps there's contradictions, but he goes with the set of a contest as opposed to realizing a

33:42

Papacy is not Exactly. Yeah, that's what I tried to bring out to him at the end was you know, what?

33:48

If your presuppositions lead you to the conclusion that your ultimate authority is no longer your ultimate authority If you're stuck in the circular situation, he's stuck in maybe what you need to realize is the mistake you made was in 1986

34:00

Not in 1996 or anything else. It was the that initial embracing of this

34:06

Ahistorical authority that has marked the rest of mad six's work and that's that's what the problem is.

34:12

But hey No one had an answer to your what I call the James White question of why the

34:18

Old Testament Jews No, I had a cannon. No, there's no even remotely good answer on that.

34:23

No. No, they don't even it's like it's like It's very much like what my mom tells me

34:29

I did when I was four years old up in Minnesota in Minneapolis When I decided I wanted to run down the middle of County Road 15 right around the corner

34:38

Was when she started chasing after me I stuck my fingers in my ears So I would not hear her so I would have a reason for my rebellion was

34:48

I stuck my fingers in my ears So I couldn't hear you saying stop don't run down the middle of the road and that's I don't see any difference here

34:54

I'm sorry, you cannot tell me these people do not know yeah, and and just a couple weeks ago,

35:01

Jimmy Akin had actually written to us and actually called rich called rich and Somebody had written to him and rich eventually sent me the email.

35:10

They they Had heard that question now, they completely warped it and they got all of context and they didn't really understand what he was saying

35:18

But it was that question and Jimmy Akin's response to rich was off. That's all it is. That's easy I've not seen what the easy response is but I would

35:27

I would love to see what his easy response is and then compare it with the easy response provided by Patrick Madrid and By other people over the years and if it's not the same response, well that in and of itself says something right there

35:38

Anyways, hey, thanks. Thanks calling Jeff. Hi guys. Bye. Bye 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1, you know

35:45

I'd never even given the number everybody was calling anyways, that's pretty cool Of course, there might be a few folks who want to get caught up after the past few weeks.

35:53

Let's talk to oh Man, we have to go across the border Good up to Canada and talk to mark.

36:00

Hello mark. Well, this one 800 uncharitable. Yes this Ah No, it's eight seven seven uncharitable 800 uncharitable goes to somebody else, but so we won't mention who it might be

36:15

Okay. Yeah, I just had a question about the You just posted a Mary sort of post about how

36:22

Catholics try to defend that the whole Queen of Heaven and all that stuff Yeah, I think I think you're referring to the post that appeared at midnight last night my time

36:30

Which was in response to Steve Ray's blog where he is arguing for the queenship role of Mary on the basis of first Kings 219 where Solomon Brings a throne in for his mother to sit upon and then that becomes expanded out to well

36:49

Since Jesus is the perfect King then he would do what the Israelite Kings did etc, etc

36:54

And and that then leads to the idea of Mary as Queen of Heaven. Yes Yeah, well

37:00

I just it just inspired a question to me and I was just wondering at them that How would you how is that different?

37:07

Let's say or when the Mormons they say this predicts Joseph Smith or when the Muslims say, you know

37:13

These passages project the holy or a particular Muhammad. How's that different than how like the

37:18

New Testament writers? looked in the Old Testament to see Jesus like Where's the

37:25

I'm just I've been asked that question before and I'm not really sure it I know there must be differences

37:31

No, they're the Apostles these people aren't but I mean the the Mormons would say yeah Well, this is our Apostle, you know

37:37

Muslims would say well, this was Muhammad, you know, and I'm just wondering where's How is it different?

37:42

How's the typology different in how Rome is using these passages to defend? Marian Superiority or what have you and I'm saying, you know this passage

37:53

Hosea, you know, it's talking about, you know This is a type of typological usage to show that Jesus is going to come out of Egypt like where's what's different?

38:01

How can I point out the difference? Right? That's an excellent question and the answers are going to vary a little bit dependent upon the group that is for example when a

38:12

Muslim utilizes in Isaiah 9 When a

38:17

Muslim Here's what I'm actually going to be addressing on the program not to use in future when a

38:22

Muslim goes to the Arabic text of translations of the Bible and finds the name

38:28

Muhammad in the Song of Solomon and Makes that a prophecy of the coming of Muhammad the final the final messenger

38:39

How you respond to that is going to be slightly different because of the historical context

38:44

Then how you respond to the Roman Catholic use of first Kings 219 or How you would respond to the

38:55

Jewish objection to the Hosea 11 passage which you just mentioned and the reason that there's a difference between each one is because of the

39:06

Foundation upon which the alleged prophecy is being placed that is for example for the

39:11

Muslim There was no Arabic text of the

39:16

Bible to refer to even in the days of Muhammad to begin with and So what you're looking at there are mere what would be called literary accidents that is any one of us could take a particular word and Especially given

39:32

Semitic languages where you have tri literal roots Make connections the sort of like saying Islam is a religion of peace because it's got

39:39

Shalom SLM in Islam Muslim Shalom is peace so on and so forth

39:44

But the problem is everybody knows Try little roots can end up having all sorts of different meanings and Islam actually means submission to God Not just the concept of peace and so you can find those try little roots and make connections all over the place

39:57

Muslims actually do that most Christians aren't aware that they have Quranic codes just like we had the

40:03

Bible codes craze for a long period of time and so Every religion comes up with stuff like that So you would address that in that context and the fact that you're looking at someone who comes 600 years after the time of Christ or in regards to Old Testament passages sometimes as long as 2 ,000 years down the road and That there's therefore no context in which to place that alleged prophetic announcement in the same way for the

40:28

Roman Catholic in regards first Kings chapter 2 You demonstrate the fact that they can't keep the analogy consistent

40:35

That is if there was this kind of consistency to the analogy as I pointed out Then it would follow that Bathsheba would have received from Solomon what she desired from him

40:45

Because the parallel would continue through to Mary's Intercession before God and the fact that the

40:52

Roman Catholic is promised that Mary will obtain what she asks from Jesus But that that consistency isn't there secondly

41:01

The the fact that it's a misuse of the establishment of an entire Position or office that we just don't see in the rest of the

41:08

Old Testament That the throne had to be brought in in first Kings chapter 2 So in other words you can look at the actual Context and say look the things that you are saying are most important about this just simply don't continue on and third for the

41:21

Roman Catholic the early church did not understand it the way that the Roman Catholic does if the Roman Catholic is going to try to argue some some kind of Consistency of tradition over time these

41:31

Marian doctrines Especially the Marian doctrines from immaculate conception through bodily assumption to Queenly coronation all the rest of these things

41:37

They're just simply not known in the early church. These are just beliefs that just weren't there they came from Gnostic sources

41:44

Even when they did I mean some of these even the Gnostics Weren't wild enough to dream up in those years

41:50

It has taken centuries and centuries beyond them to come up with anything even remotely like what Rome has now Dogmatized or has considered

41:56

Dogmatizing in the concept of Mary is co -redemptrix co -mediatrix an advocate of the people of God, so that's the next thing

42:02

But when you get to New Testament utilizations What you have are

42:08

Jewish people utilizing the Jewish scriptures and Finding in those

42:14

Jewish scriptures these references to a an individual that at that time

42:20

Both Jews and Christians and remember we we look at Jews and Christians now as utterly separate distinct entities at the time of the ministry of Christ a there wasn't such a distinction that all the followers of Jews were

42:32

Jewish and Even for a long period after that You look at what happens for example in the sixth century early

42:39

It's a sixth century sixth decade of the first century when the Romans expelled the Jews from Rome Well the

42:44

Christians got expelled too because from the Romans perspective. They're all the same They didn't even make a differentiation between them

42:50

And you have an axe the fact that the Apostles are going into the synagogues And they're preaching there because there is this this direct connection between the two

42:58

But the context is of individuals who are believing Jews they they say that they are continuing to worship the

43:06

God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and Everyone is expecting Messiah and and the prophetic

43:12

Speculation found in the intertestamental period is quite fascinating now obviously because of their external circumstances a lot of that prophetic speculation was focused upon those prophecies of the

43:21

Messiah where the Messiah destroys the enemies of Israel and So there was primarily even in the ministry of Jesus even after Jesus his own teaching as apostles are going well

43:30

It is now the time when you can restore the kingdom of Israel now now now you know even before the Ascension that type of Things going on, but you have individuals who are immersed in the context of the

43:42

Old Testament scriptures And they believe the Old Testament scriptures, and they hold the Old Testament scriptures

43:49

And it's not that they're just ransacking the Old Testament looking for anything that could be wildly attached because honestly

43:56

There's a whole lot more that could have been Utilized in that way that simply wasn't instead the prophecies that are attached our

44:06

Prophecies where if you look back for example. I don't have time today It's quarter till and we've got four more callers on the line

44:12

So I need to try to hurry this up. I tend to be a little bit difficult in doing that but When you look at for example the

44:18

Isaiah 7 prophecy of Immanuel There's clearly an immediate fulfillment of that within the time of Isaiah in regards to the peoples who were attacking

44:28

Israel but the same time when you look at the exalted language that is utilized and and the the

44:33

Extent to which the prophecy is is is given and the what it involves there seems to be much more to it than that and then

44:41

Isaiah himself Expands on that in both Isaiah 9 and Isaiah 10 on the same theme

44:48

Where there isn't an immediate fulfillment, and it couldn't be I mean the the person of Isaiah 7 seen then again

44:54

Isaiah 9 who ever lived in that day that could possibly described as sarah shalom and el gabor and and Aviad and things like it.

45:03

There's just no one who actually can fulfill that and so the utilization of those prophecies

45:11

Comes really with a with a context within it that is that is applicable and now the

45:16

Jewish Jewish apologists You know this is where I think a lot more work needs to be done There's some good books that have been done

45:22

William Webster's done a good book on it some others Hengstenberg's work on Christ in the Old Testament these unfortunately are not the most popular works are available today, but But this was the part

45:31

This is part and parcel of the of the life of the New Testament Church and that's why the book of Hebrews just assumes such a large knowledge of the sacrificial system and the content of the

45:43

Old Testament And hence going into it utilizes it as its primary Argumentation because that's what the early church had to use so there's

45:51

I see a vast difference between being able to go into those Old Testament passages and And arguing that that as a whole they are pointing toward this fulfillment and the the sacrifices

46:02

Clearly indicated that because of their repetition for example in Hebrews 10 that there had to be a greater fulfillment things like that There's a direct connection within the

46:10

Jewish community to that that you don't have certainly don't have with the Islamic application I didn't even get into the

46:16

Mormon stuff because I mean I mean, you know, obviously Joseph Smith had to come up with a whole new chapter in Genesis just to make that work

46:23

So, I mean, that's that's it. So yeah Quick recap then is it basically the difference is is that?

46:31

for the Apostles what they were using was an expected thing Well for nobody was expecting another prophet with Mohammed or Joseph Smith Nobody was expecting

46:41

Mary all of a sudden to become the Queen of Heaven, but people were expecting a Messiah And so it's a totally different sort of that's one aspect.

46:48

Yeah, that's one aspect of it It's not it's not the entire aspect, but that is one I think very appropriate aspect that does allow the

46:56

Christian interpretation the Old Testament to be examined in a different light than Joseph Smith making up a new chapter in Genesis or the

47:04

Muslim looking at a later translation of the Arabic Old Testament after the time of Mohammed and finding a connection to Ahmed In in the in the description of the lover in in Song of Solomon of how beautiful the lover is and that somehow becomes a reference to to to Mohammed there's no

47:26

Connection there between the themes of that book and the Old Testament as a whole and Mohammed coming, you know, two thousand years later

47:33

There's there's no connection there Whereas there is clearly the connection of the prophecies of the Messiah and things like that in the

47:39

Old Testament That then become fulfilled in the new. Okay Thanks, Mark. All right. Thanks for calling. God bless.

47:44

Bye. Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one Let's pick up the pace here and head up to Cameron.

47:52

Hi Cameron. How you doing? Hello, Cameron. Oh, hi. Hi. How you doing? Oh, dr.

47:57

White. Thanks for taking my call. Yes, sir I am looking at your blog the other day and just looking at the discussion you had with Johnson appreciating.

48:05

Yes. Uh -huh, and I wish I could ask him this question, but I guess I'm just gonna ask you

48:11

I don't know how fair that is, but I'll ask you anyway So basically what I was hearing from him as he was talking was that he was basically relating or saying that the hype because Christians believers are somehow engrafted into Christ by the

48:26

Spirit and because Christ Because of the hype was looking at the hypostatic union of Christ and it's somehow because the believers somehow united into Christ maybe like John 17 20 would support that.

48:40

Mm -hmm that we are one with with Christ or Ephesians 1 13, you know that we were born united with him and everything and so What I would like to ask him

48:53

But I guess I'll just ask you what you would think of this question is basically does that mean that? Believers ought to be able to worship other believers if we'd use that same logic as to why we are

49:03

Why the Catholic would believe that we're able to worship? a saint and Mary and whatnot because of that same logic well, yeah and I'll try to give as best response.

49:14

I can recognizing that I Clearly find and for those who who are not have not listened to the calls

49:22

I posted two links on my blog the first to a call that Jonathan pre -gene gave me in 2004 that was very calm cool and collected the second one to last year's call where after he had accused me of Nestorianism and everything

49:35

Else he called up and we had an almost 15 -minute conversation, which I ended I hung up on him

49:41

And of course are now using that as an example and those of you who listen this program regularly or have to chuckle this

49:46

The example of why no one should ever call because I just simply hang up on people eyes as I pointed out

49:52

Mr. Pre -gene's gotten about 37 minutes of airtime. I can guarantee you if I started calling

49:57

Catholic answers live I would not get 37 minutes of airtime in any way shape or form.

50:02

But anyway in the second call What the point of argumentation for those who haven't heard it?

50:11

Was was basically that due to the hypostatic union the relationship of the divine and the human in Christ and our union with him

50:17

This was being used in essence as a defense for the Roman Catholic concept of of giving of the distinction between Julia hyper

50:27

Julia and Latria and The concept of the the worship of God and the giving of hyper

50:34

Julia to Mary and Julia to the Saints is that because Christ has entered into the physical realm that there is something that in essence has happened that allows a transference in some way shape or form of that Being able to give honor to that which is which is creaturely and so I asked him what to me is an obvious question and that is was not the incarnation unique in its nature in its event and What people need to understand is the reason

51:10

I hung up on mr. Pre gene was that after I asked him a biblical question based upon John 1 14 the word became flesh

51:18

And I said is that not a unique? event in other words would that not be completely different than Making application to anyone else including those who are united in a redemptive sense with with Jesus Christ and Personally I am deeply offended

51:38

When people will use biblical language But do not do their biblical homework, and I am deeply offended when biblical truths for example if you want to get me upset draw a parallel between the evidence for the blessed doctrine of the

51:51

Trinity in Scripture and one of these Roman Catholic dogmas that are not defined for five hundred a thousand fifteen hundred or two thousand years after the time of Christ as If there are some there's somehow a parallel between them

52:04

That to me is extremely offensive to God to his truth to the clarity and perspicuity and inspiration of the

52:11

Bible and I find that offensive. It's not that it's offensive to me as an individual I feel sorry for anybody who's gonna have to stand before God and answer for making that kind of I think blasphemous statement

52:22

But I find it offensive to my God and so when mr. Pre gene stuttered and stammered a dead air in Response to that question

52:31

Because there's a biblical question is an exegetical question rather than a question based upon spending hours and hours reading

52:37

Cyril of Alexandria That was offensive to me and when he began to laugh at my

52:45

Focusing upon the biblical revelation rather than spending the rest of the hour

52:51

Discussing the the oddities of Cyril of Alexandria's writings I found that so offensive that that I hung up on him, but I'm not sure how he would answer that outside of the utilization of the unbiblical distinction between Latria Hyper Dullea and Dullea, but it did seem to me that his argument had something to do with the idea

53:14

That that Union does provide some basis not only for icons and images and things like that But for the practices that have grown up along those lines as well, so That's the best

53:28

I can do for you. I believe he has a blog you can you can google Crimson Catholic and ask him directly if you'd like to But being an attorney be expecting a very long and convoluted response

53:42

My apologies to all attorneys, but it has been my experience that that that giving a succinct response

53:49

Is is probably not going to happen you're gonna get a rather full one But I don't have any problem with anybody googling him looking him up and asking him because honestly

53:57

I think for the person who loves the Word of God and loves God's truth the uniqueness of the incarnation event is

54:05

So clear that even when you emphasize our union with Christ that union is a gracious union and it is a union that does not ontologically change us and the union of the of the divine and human

54:18

In the hypostatic union regards to Christ does not change creation itself in the sense that the laws of God About communication with the dead or the nature of worship does not change the clarity and perspicuity

54:33

Of those fundamental laws of God that have found this word and to say that it does to me is the height of sophistry

54:40

Okay, well, I think I'm gonna search him out and try to See what he has to say about that, okay, maybe try to find his blog, so but I appreciate it.

54:47

All right. Thanks a lot Thanks. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right, let's press on here. We only have a few minutes left and talk with Lawrence again

54:55

Hi Lawrence. Yes calling from California. Yes, sir. I Wonder maybe you have a an idea why people don't call your program with You know to to defend

55:08

Opposite views I hear callers that seem to agree with you or ask questions and It seems that it's rare to me that Catholics or people that would agree with the

55:19

Catholic views in my case being Orthodox would Kind of give up on calling you do you sense that this trend as well or how do you explain it?

55:29

I explain it to be honest with you Roman Catholic apologists in general tend to prefer a monologue over a dialogue that is while Catholic answers was very small back in the 1980s.

55:44

They did seek the notoriety with it would come with debating Basically fundamentalists that did not have any knowledge of church history or Roman Catholic theology

55:54

But once we came on the scene all of a sudden that has changed and and now That they have national radio programs and they have a larger audience.

56:03

They're primarily interested in a monologue Not in a dialogue as far as that is concerned and quite honestly, especially in regards to areas like the

56:11

Marian dogmas and in regards to the papacy and regards to the claims of the

56:17

Sea of Rome, especially in the first five centuries as you undoubtedly would be well aware a

56:24

Dialogue just doesn't really work For a conservative Roman Catholic who is attempting to substantiate the the client claims of papal primacy now for an ecumenical

56:35

Roman Catholic who doesn't have nearly as much of a Of an interest or a an extra grind.

56:41

Okay, fine. That's one thing but for the The Catholic apologists that has a very strong believing base

56:51

They're not going to want them really finding out what Leo actually said or what calcidon actually said they don't want

56:57

Hearing a fair discussion the 28th can account the Council of calcidon and they're not going to Really want a fair discussion of what happened during the

57:04

Aryan ascendancy after the Council of Nicaea or things like that because it just doesn't reflect well on their position and so in general you just don't have that kind of of Dialogue taking place if I may make a comment

57:18

I remember maybe or three years ago. You had a program where you discussed receiving tapes from from Jerry and mechanics

57:26

And in the tape he made the case that you know, Mary and the Ark have this

57:31

Yes, yeah, and you seem to be bothered by by this being a possibility

57:36

So you said oh if that's real, it's pretty devastating and it seems to me That it's it's it's a good case.

57:44

I mean, how do you think no, actually you misunderstood me? What I said was when I received the tapes from Jerry, okay

57:50

He he presented the material in such a rapid -fire manner that what

57:55

I said was man if that's real I've never heard anyone talking about these things but then what

58:01

I went on to say is I then took the tapes home sat down in front of the computer with Bible works and Instead of just rat -a -tat -tat rapid -fire

58:09

When he would say for example The Greek word here in the

58:15

Septuagint is the same thing that Luke uses of the Shekinah glory Okay now I can hit pause and I can go into the

58:22

Septuagint and I can bring up the term and I can go to Luke and I can do a full search and what I said was

58:27

I found that at each and every point his case Collapsed that he was not speaking the truth.

58:33

And so it was the biblical examination of that argumentation that to me Then became the the foundation of the debate that we did in in 1996

58:44

I believe it was on Long Island on the subject of Mary and I was able

58:49

I think to demonstrate that the argumentation he was using was exceptionally poor now I don't know if you've ever seen those debates.

58:55

They were rather Rapid fire because we covered four dogmas in one debate

59:02

So you didn't have a whole lot of time But I still felt that there was sufficient time

59:08

For for us to develop fairly clearly the fact that it was really taking a gross amount of special pleading

59:15

On his part to make that kind of an argument and it would be interesting to me that we don't have time today to develop

59:22

It were as it is We're going over time just to take your call and then the call for from David up in Washington and we'll wrap things up It would seem odd to me that you would find it to be

59:31

Much of a compelling case simply because the fact that it's the exact same Argumentation they use to go beyond what you as an

59:40

Orthodox person accept as as appropriate teaching on Mary to the point where they've

59:47

Dogmatized things that the Eastern Orthodox do not accept to be dogma at all and correct And if I'm not not incorrect is part of the main ecumenical dialogues right now

59:58

And in fact one of the arguments against the dogmatization of Mary is co -redemptrix mediatrix an advocate of the people of God as I understand it

01:00:06

Yeah, was that it would cause a major stumbling block in the ecumenical dialogues of the East, correct? Correct, but do you think there's there's no possibility just to wrap up that that there's no chance that in any shape or form

01:00:18

The Ark is a type of Mary Well, let's let's put it this way If someone were to make that kind of an argument

01:00:27

I would want to ask why is it if that is the case that not only is that not a part of The New Testament reflection in the subject.

01:00:37

Why is that also not a part of the early churches reflection? Depending on how you want to find early church.

01:00:43

You have to have developments in the early church specifically in regards to The concept first of all, you have to have

01:00:52

Irenaeus coming up with the with the Eve Mary Parallel and then that has to become expanded in the next generation

01:00:59

Due to the rise of the Eastern Fathers and monasticism the influx of what

01:01:04

I would call an unbiblical view of sexuality before you have any type of a fertile soil into which various Gnostic ideas from the from the

01:01:15

Gnostic Gospels are placed that then give rise to what we see in the fourth century in the blossoming of Marian theology and from that point then sure you get all sorts of discussions of it

01:01:28

But as I look at it I don't see any reason to believe that that was anything the

01:01:33

Apostles ever came up with and as such I don't see any reason to to put any any weight into it at all.

01:01:39

I mean you can come up with all sorts of allegorical interpretations regarding all sorts of New Testament events

01:01:46

But if the Apostles and those who were taught be it by the Apostles did not see those things

01:01:52

I don't see any reason to put any weight into it. So when you say it's impossible I'm not gonna say anything is impossible on that line, but I don't see any reason to believe it

01:02:00

And I certainly don't and I certainly find it offensive When someone then takes that and dogmatizes it and makes it a day -fee day

01:02:09

Dogma that I somehow have to believe on the same level as the resurrection of Jesus Christ Which is what gerrymantics does the bodily assumption of Mary.

01:02:16

I agree on that point. Okay. Hey, thank you. Thank you for call We're out of time. I'm gonna get one more call in. Thanks for calling.

01:02:21

Thank you. Bye. Bye and let's real quickly grab David David We've gone over time just for you

01:02:27

Well, thank you I don't know if this would be a quick question or not pertains to the

01:02:32

Contrast between the necessity of grace and the sufficiency of grace It seems that at least from my reading and correct me if I'm wrong that you're using the phrase sufficiency grace

01:02:43

Differently than it's been used historically For my reading of Paul and guys like art and even

01:02:49

Charles Hodge They're using it in a much different sense. Now. Did you just say art as in Ludwig art?

01:02:55

Yes, that's quite a quite a stretch to put Hodge and Ludwig art in the same breath

01:03:00

But go ahead and explain what you mean. Well, for instance of Paul, I think he's the clearest on this he contrasts

01:03:06

Efficacious grace with sufficient grace. This is what he says of sufficient grace Sufficient grace is that divine assistance whereby

01:03:13

God communicates to the human? Well full power to form a salutary act, but not the action itself.

01:03:20

Okay. Now, who are you quoting a pole? He's he has a systematic theology about 12 -volume set and he has one on grace a volume

01:03:27

Just please please spell this because your phone's very muffled. I'm sorry P O H Okay.

01:03:33

All right. All right. Thank you. I thought you were saying Paul and I'm going I don't remember that one Romans Yeah, it's the bass tones on your phone or at least in my headphones are a lot more than the higher tones, but okay

01:03:48

Yeah, I am NOT utilizing the term in that way at all I am discussing instead here

01:03:54

I'm not talking about that kind of definition of grace at all especially in that context where sounds like The grace is being defined as something that merely brings man to a point of moral neutrality

01:04:08

So he can make a proper decision not using that at all I am contrasting the difference between those who say that God's grace is

01:04:16

Necessary in whatever form all synergists would say that God's grace is necessary to bring about salvation over against the

01:04:25

Reformed understanding that God's grace is Sufficient to bring about his purposes in the salvation of his elect so that it is both necessary and sufficient over that that would be a monergistic understanding versus those who would say it is necessary only but God's grace can try to save but fail outside of the addition of and then you can either have a very short list or A very long list depending on where you fall in the synergistic spectrum

01:04:54

But yeah, I'm talking about the difference between whether God saves alone monergistically or whether God saves synergistically and the relative amount of His work can be very large or very small depending on where you fall in the synergistic spectrum

01:05:11

Well, that's how I thought you were using it But yes, I don't see any historical precedent for that specific

01:05:17

I would say the entire Reformation is a historical precedent But no, I mean specifically the contrast between the necessity of grace and the sufficiency of grace because sufficient to me in in a classical definition means that that it is a sufficient and by that I It doesn't preclude

01:05:36

Cooperation well sufficient to do what yeah sufficient to do what if if if you do enable

01:05:43

That's and that's and that's exactly where the Reformation and Rome differed

01:05:48

If you have you read the freedom the debate between Erasmus and Luther no,

01:05:53

I have not okay Luther identified his debate with Erasmus over the freedom to bondage the will as the hinge upon which it all turns the key issue separating

01:06:05

Roman Catholicism and the Reformers and that is And that's why I say the entire

01:06:11

Reformation is Documentation of the historical existence of this use the term sufficiency that is that is not simply sufficient

01:06:18

To allow for a free act it is sufficient to actually accomplish the intention of God in the salvation of his elect people and so sadly the majority of post -evangelicals today

01:06:32

Would line up with Erasmus against the Reformers at this point because they're all over in the necessity

01:06:39

But not sufficiency range because God is trying to save everybody but failing regularly in fulfilling his actual heart's intention and as a

01:06:49

Self -consistent, I would hope reformed theologian. I believe that Jesus Christ the perfect Savior He will not lose any of those that are given to him and those are given to him are given to him by God's free grace not on the basis of their fulfilling any kind of Conditions whether by sufficient grace or any other type of grace, so that's where we would differ there

01:07:11

David Thank you very much. We kept you seven minutes over and Appreciate the phone call today.

01:07:16

And hopefully that's clears things up for a lot of folks. Hey, thanks for the phone calls they never got back to the

01:07:22

Badlands man broadcast, but you know what? Obviously some folks in the audience needed to discuss some things we've been talking about and hopefully that clarified things for everybody

01:07:31

We will be back Lord willing Thursday afternoon here on the dividing line We'll try to get to the Bible and some and discussion and your calls.

01:07:37

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