THE HERE I STAND THEOLOGY PODCAST Not Calvins Idea! The Doctrine of Grace Episode 1 of 6

Here I stand, I can do no other. Will you recant or will you not?

Since your majesty and your lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer.

Unless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason, and not by popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God.

To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not.

Here I stand, I can do no other.

God help me. And here we are.

Live from the heart of Ramsey Manor in the studio, we have a special guest in the studio with us,

BG. Also, by the way, this is the Here I Stand Theology Podcast.

This is going to be a special installment. We're going to be doing a five to six, depending on how far we get, maybe more, maybe less.

I don't know. But a special series on the doctrines of grace. Again, BG stands for Brother Gregory.

Greg Madison will have him introduce himself here in just a moment. I do want to remind everyone that the

Here I Stand Theology Podcast is a ministry of Reformed Baptist Church. So we are accountable for everything that we say.

We will not teach false doctrine. If we seem and sound like we are getting out there, do not hesitate to bring to us the scripture.

We'll be glad to look at that with you. But in any case, so Greg, how are you doing? I am doing quite well.

Thank you. Very, very excited to be here. So thank you very much.

It's a wonderful time. First time in the studio. It is. It is. I know. It's a fun show anyway.

I know. I'm so privileged. So again, we are glad that we are getting to do this.

We've talked a lot about this. We're finally getting started on it. And tonight, probably you may hear in the background, our family's in the living room, but that's okay.

Hey, because family's important. When you have kids, you just sort of, you just drown all that out.

You don't even notice it anymore. Background noise? Whatever.

Children screaming? It's all right. Big sister torturing her little brother?

Oh, it's great. It's great. Ambiance. It is. It is. It is. It totally is. Just wait every now, now and then.

And then you get good at deciphering the screams if it's just whining about something or somebody's really injured, but you know, you pick it up.

There are nuances. It's like a dialect. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

So Greg, before we get started, before we get into our content tonight, tell the audience about yourself, introduce yourself, where y 'all are from, where y 'all are at now.

What's going on? Sure. Sure. Absolutely. So I am. I am Greg Madison, also known as Brother Gregory.

I have the Unmerited Favor podcast. You can find me in a very few places,

Spotify, YouTube, so on and so forth. So that's that's about the extent of my

Internet presence. Other than that, myself and my family originally from from way up north in Connecticut and only moved down to Tennessee last year.

We we fled. We fled the the Democratic People's Republic of Connecticut.

And we arrived here in actual America. So so we're we're enjoying things quite well.

And you're getting ready to celebrate your one year anniversary. Yes, absolutely. One year anniversary is

March 16th. So 316 providentially enough. Um, but but yeah, yeah.

So we're looking forward to that. It's been it's been quite the year. Now we're not talking about your wedding anniversary.

No, it is the move anniversary. Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember what my wedding anniversary is.

Um, no, that's not true. You just said that on air. No, that's fine. I joke with my wife on that all the time.

No, I still remember. So how many years have you been married? Mmm. 14.

Awesome. I'll go with that. Sure. Why not? Right? Somewhere somewhere around there. How many children?

We have two kids, a boy and a girl. Awesome. Yeah, they are totally different people.

It's amazing. It's amazing how different they are and also how differently one feels about them.

You know, my daughter is my little girl and I will I will die to protect her. And then my son, you know, he falls and I'm like, eh, get up, kid, man up.

But he has he has just acquired the ability to run. Oh, oh, yeah.

Correct. Yes. Yeah. And he is he's a kid who should never have learned how to run because he's he's one of those crazy kids.

So, you know, our daughter, we dodged that bullet. She was very peaceful throughout all of her years.

And then this kid, man, as soon as he could move, it's just like, it's insane, chases everything, runs at everything, throws things.

He's got a great arm, though. So, you know, there is that. All right. So where do you go to church at?

I go to church at Reformata Baptist Church here and here in good old

Tennessee. Canoxville. Canoxville. Yeah.

Yeah. So I attend in here. We've been here now for, I don't know, we joined up a few months after we had moved down here.

I think June or July. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we looked around. Couldn't find a lot with with good sound theology and then found found this and so started coming and we've been here ever since.

Praise the Lord. Yeah. Praise the Lord. So Greg and his family have been a tremendous addition to Reformata Baptist Church, so you need to know that.

I know I tell you that regularly. Yes, you do. But I'll tell you it publicly. I ain't scared. I'm not going to hug you.

I'm not going to hug you on here because it looks awkward in the camera. Right. And we got wires and everything. It just, it just won't work.

Yeah. So. So. So let's introduce our topic tonight again.

This is beginning a series on the doctrines of grace. We are basically tonight.

The plan is to simply be to discuss the fact that the doctrines of or that the

TULIP acronym was not invented by Calvin. But before we do that, let's play a little bit of intro music here.

All right.

So Greg is a and I'm not ashamed to say this.

He is a resident theologian at the church. He is a man full of much wisdom and much knowledge.

And he is only what, 37, 38, 38, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll go with that. He is but a young man. I am. And again, the BG thing is something kind of new that I think we're starting with Greg.

Yes. Hopefully it catches. Yeah. And the happy Calvinist is a new thing for me.

Greg, we discussed this a little bit. I did. I took issue with it because there's no such thing as a happy Calvinist.

It is a prerequisite to be miserable. In fact, there is a, there's a saying that the greatest fear of any

Calvinist is that somewhere someone might be happy. So that may be another, another goal that we have here is to dispel the notion that Calvinists, that reformed folk cannot be happy, that you don't have to be a stick in the mud to be holy.

Right. Of course. Of course. Calvin, who spoke extensively about the joys of grace was one of the least miserable people.

So. All right. So let's begin with the fact that Tulip isn't a

Calvinist idea. So back in 1610, there came to be known something called the remonstrance.

It was, it took place basically by the followers of Jacobus Arminius after he passed away.

He passed away in 1609. And really, they just kind of ran with, kind of ran with his ideas and incoming call, incoming call.

It's fine. The building isn't on fire. So Jacob Arminius, his followers just kind of took off.

And I've said this before on another podcast episode, the pastor's panel with Truth and Love Network, and I'll say it again.

I think, have you done a whole lot of reading on the remonstrance? I have not.

No, no. My knowledge is not that extensive. So most of what I've read, it's almost as if, which you can see it happening.

Followers of someone after they die kind of take off and they kind of start inserting their own angles and their own views and their own ideas.

Yeah. And I think to some degree, this is what happened with Arminius and his followers because Arminius held to the

Belgic Confession, which is soundly reformed. I love it. Soundly reformed. It's one of my favorites.

Yep. No, I absolutely love the Belgic Confession. It is fantastic. There was an interesting, just getting into this, an interesting article on ccel .org

Philip Schaff wrote concerning the Arminian controversy. It corresponded to the

Pelagian and Jansenist controversies in the Catholic Church. It involves the problem of ages, which again and again has baffled the theologians and philosophers and will do so to the end of time.

The relation of divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Of course, it started with the doctrine of predestination, turned around five articles after the remonstrance, which came to be known as five articles or five points of Calvinism.

Here's a new term that we both just discovered today, hence the term quinquarticular controversy.

So if you're watching this and you really want to impress your theological friends, ask them about the quinquarticular controversy.

It started with the doctrine, so Calvinism represented the consistent, logical, and conservative orthodoxy.

Arminianism became, as Schaff writes, an elastic, progressive, changing liberalism.

And liberalism has always been a challenge within the church and should be challenged. As well, I found out that, you know, with the rise of the

Molinist controversy nowadays, that it is said historically, though, that Arminius, part of his theology came from a – what's the word?

Not Judaistic. Jesuit. Jesuit. Yep. Kind of came out of a Jesuit theology.

Right, because Molin, he was a Jesuit, and yes, yeah, so that makes sense.

I kind of jokingly referred to his Molinism as the Roman Catholic form of Arminianism.

But the commonality, of course, being that they are both still established on salvation by works.

So whereas with one, you have to obey all the law, and with Arminianism, you only have to obey one.

But in either way, you're still obeying some law in order to be saved.

So let me – so talk on that for just a minute about the – just give us kind of an overview of the difference between the five points of Calvinism and the five points of Arminianism, which

I'll bring up while you're doing that. Right, good. Because I don't have the – as beautiful as the details for each are, but again, as you had mentioned, that the five points of Calvinism were a response to the

Arminian doctrine that was presented to be taught as truth.

So at least back in the day, liberalism had enough respect to ask if it was okay to show up at church.

And so there was – the Arminianist doctrine was being presented, the Arminian doctrine was being presented.

And so the good Christian men formed the Synod of Dort, from which we have the

Canons of Dort, which were the conclusions from that Synod, from that council that was formed.

And it was the response to the Arminian points of doctrine.

So Arminianism actually caused the creation of what is known as five -point

Calvinism, which has a clever little acronym of TULIP, which

I, for being a Calvinist, I'm not – I mean,

I think I can remember them all for TULIP, because again,

Calvin didn't come up with TULIP. And Calvin's main contribution to Christianity isn't the doctrine of predestination.

Calvin's main contribution, the unique contribution, if you will, is the

Holy Spirit. Calvin wrote at length about the third person of the

Trinity. And so much of what we know and understand about the biblical doctrines relating to the

Holy Spirit come from Calvin's works. So Calvin wasn't obsessed with predestination.

He mentioned it because it's in Scripture, but that wasn't his soapbox.

But there are unfortunately now a lot of Calvinists who are only Calvinist by name because of TULIP. And then they just abandoned the rest of Reformed theology, which is very tragic.

That would be the young, restless, and Reformed crowd, right? So TULIP, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the

Saints. Those are the acronyms, that's what the acronym represents. So again, with those being designated, they were not something that Calvin came up with, but they were given actually as five theological answers to the problem of Arminianism.

So Arminianism came first. Yes, yes, yep. And so the

Canons of Dort effectively put that together. And that was their conclusion.

So each of those points represents the response from that synod on those matters.

And then we had it nicely packaged into a clever little thing, which then we get to use flowers for.

So, you know, I'm sure that was intentional. There are no really manly flowers, though.

You'd think that they would have came up with a Venus flytrap acronym. I know, I know.

And that's the thing with flowers. I'm like, you know, flowers, I don't think are inherently masculine or feminine, but no,

I don't need any or want any, so. So the five articles of the

Remonstrance are not in order with, are not necessarily aligned side by side with the acronym for TULIP, but the first of the articles of the

Remonstrance was conditional predestination. Obviously, in response to limited atonement, right?

Arminius taught that God elects individuals to salvation based on his foreknowledge of those who, by the grace of the

Holy Spirit, believe in Jesus Christ and persevere in the faith. This doctrine is sometimes called conditional election.

So maybe it's the unconditional election that it comes with. It's, in short, a person's salvation is conditioned upon him or her choosing

God. Again, something very big today. If you are a YouTuber, you cannot turn on the

YouTubes unless you see a Leighton Flowers video. Now, you're not real familiar with Leighton Flowers, right?

No, I avoid the internet. He's got a thing, he's got a thing, I mean, about James White.

He won't let up on James White. But, you know, don't grab an angry dog by the ears, is what the

Scripture says. So that's a dangerous thing. So unconditional election in the

TULIP acronym versus the conditional predestination in the Arminian article, the view that God elects individuals to salvation based solely on his will and not anything inherently worthy in the individual or any choice that he or she makes.

So talk a little bit about conditional predestination from the Arminian view for a moment. Right. And so with that,

I mean, you have, it's a desire to retain one's autonomy and really is sort of the underpinning of a lot of the debate when it comes to the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.

Now, not to not to, of course, defend anything that is not biblical or anything that may be heresy, the the fact that God is sovereign and that man is accountable are two clear doctrines in Scripture and they are a mystery, however.

And so which is why you have the different camps and the different views on how all of this works, because we don't fully understand how all of it works, because clearly man is accountable for all that he does and says he will be held accountable for all that he does and says by God and God is absolutely and ultimately sovereign.

And so you do end up with a lot of different, a lot of different things. And Arminianism being one of them.

I think, though, the failing of Arminianism is that desire to try to keep some human autonomy.

It's not really a matter of, well, we want it to be as biblical as possible. It's more so if we don't have libertarian free will, then what's the point?

And to be fair, the the first generation Arminians were far more educated in in reformed theology than modern

Arminians. I mean, modern Arminianism is the weirdest stuff I've ever heard.

I mean, at least these men still knew their scriptures. Yeah, they still knew the writings. We've gone all all kinds of crazy with them anyway.

Well, just the term, I mean, just the term conditional predestination. So God's predestinating purpose for us basically is what this is saying in the

Arminian view is God's predestinating purpose for us is conditioned upon what we allow him to do or not to do.

Right, right. I know. And the conditional and the conditional being,

I mean, really, it gets down to that point of if you believe that the cross of Christ makes men savable as opposed to believing that the cross of Christ saves men.

And that's really the big point on conditional versus unconditional. So if Jesus died for the world, every single person, then that means that his blood only made them savable as opposed to saving them.

But yeah. And then which means then that the individual has to choose. And as I said, to choose something is still an act.

It's still a matter of obedience. It also assumes and this gets into Pelagianism, which is the belief that man is inherently good.

His nature is inherently good. I believe Romans don't say that, though. It says, there are some that are good.

There are some that are righteous. There are some that seek after God. Oh, yeah, sure. That was it. Yeah, absolutely.

Because, you know, God flooded only a partially corrupt world.

Sarcasm, by the way, sarcasm in case anybody is wondering, none good, none righteous, none seek after God.

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and so there's that matter of believing that one can choose salvation is to choose righteousness and to do so by their own will assumes that one's will is capable of righteousness.

Whereas scripture is very clear that we are dead in our trespasses and dead men cannot choose.

You know, dead men get no vote. And one of my favorite examples in a very literal fashion was that Jesus did not ask

Lazarus if he wanted to be raised from the dead. Exactly. There was there was also no doorknob on the outside of his tomb.

Christ just called forth and Lazarus rose from the dead. So you know, how you feel about it, it does not matter.

It's almost like Jesus is sovereign over life and death. Right. And everything.

The heavens and the earth are the Lord's and he does according to his pleasure in the heavens and the earth.

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you touch there a little bit on really got into the second point of Arminianism, which was universal or unlimited atonement.

We won't go into the limited atonement today because we want to kind of set that. Sure. You know, we'll have the depth.

We'll go into the scriptures on that. But we just want to kind of we'll kind of look at these today. We'll leave them wanting more. I get it.

Exactly. Exactly. Because. All right.

So universal atonement. You said it. I think I think you you stated that so perfectly right that Jesus didn't die to make salvation just make salvation possible.

But he provided. Right. How did you word that? Right. Oh, so the cross did not.

The cross perfectly saves. It did not make men savable. So and that's really the that main distinction on the atonement part of it, limited versus unlimited.

Yeah. And so the third point of Arminianism really is the only point that we we can really have agreement on.

I mean, it's amazing that really if if they taught this concerning total depravity or deprivation, how they can how you can get the rest of it wrong, right, is a mystery.

Right. And when you I mean, and you'll you'll you'll run into this even when having discussions with with generally biblically sound

Arminians, regardless, is that you can use the same terms, but you're talking past one another because Arminians clearly believe

God is sovereign. But they don't use that term the way that Calvinists use that term, unless, of course, you're talking about things that don't really matter, because the advice from any

Arminian is it's it's all right that that didn't work out. God has someone special for you. And I'm like, well, that doesn't sound like free will at all.

God God has a God. You know, I'm like, no, you can you can pick and choose. That goes kind of into the

Joel Osteen theology. God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Oh, absolutely. That actually sounds like irresistible grace.

In fact, God has a plan for your life, whether or not you want it. So that leads us to the fourth point of Arminian doctrine.

Grace is necessary. So it's needful. But they say it is resistible.

So right. Of course, Arminianism rejects the Calvinist belief in irresistible grace or effectual calling, teaching instead that people have a free will to resist the grace of God and to reject his call to salvation.

Right. So. Right. And that's the same. Yeah. My my my same issue that I have with with any legalism.

And you see this also because Roman Catholics will agree on the necessity of grace.

Arminians will agree about the necessity of grace. Everyone's pretty much on the same page of the necessity. The distinction is the sufficiency.

And so for the work based theology, for work based salvation, grace is necessary, but it is insufficient.

It still requires an action by man independent of a provision of God. Whereas the reformed understanding is that grace is not only necessary, but it is also sufficient.

Man, man. So just some more old, just some names some folks may not understand, may not have ever heard here and they're fun to pronounce.

So what folks may fail to realize, we're just doing the succinct, the short, giving you the intro on this.

But the remonstrance of 1610 in an article. Who wrote this?

I've started to really like his preaching, the Robert Godfrey. Have you listened to him preach much? I have not.

No. Oh dude, seriously. Okay. Seriously, he's good. He's Dutch reformed. He's a good guy.

Oh, fantastic. I love the Dutch reformed. But in an article there on Ligonier, he wrote this. The remonstrance of 1610 was a rather long document.

The executive officer of the state, Jan van Oldenbarnevelt, nailed it, saw immediately how explosive the document was and wanted to try to keep it a secret.

As with most government secrets, he was soon widely known and evoked the reaction that Oldenbarnevelt had feared.

The orthodox Calvinists soon issued a response that became known as the counter -remonstrance of 1611.

And these Calvinists came to be called counter -remonstrance. So which came first, the remonstrance or the counter -remonstrance?

The remonstrance. Right. Right. Standing against that. And it's just these little things like this in really getting down in our theology and looking and understanding our theology and understanding the heart of our theology.

We were talking a little bit, if you would, don't mind, on our way home from Bible study last night, talking about the importance of church history.

Can you share a little bit about the importance of church history? Oh, yeah, absolutely. In relation to this particular.

Right, right. Because our current problem is that for most Christians, church history begins at the moment of conversion, which is an absolute disservice to the thousands of years of church history.

But even on this particular doctrinal issue, a lot of the things with which we may struggle or even the things that we believe that we've learned from whatever organization or institution we belong to.

We aren't aware that there may have already been debates on this, that there may already have been actual

God -fearing men, well -educated, who wrote and debated these things at length.

And we just ignore that and all that has come before us because, boy, history is boring sort of a mentality.

And then we just form our own conclusions on these things or we think, oh, yeah, sure, that's good enough because it makes sense to me.

And then we hardly scratch the surface of Christianity.

Amen. You know, and to the point that I always bring up, even just that notion of universal literacy was a Protestant idea.

And it was everyone should have to read because everyone should be able to read scripture so that they can challenge doctrine that they hear.

And it was a way of guarding the church against false teachers. And history does that as well.

Our knowledge and understanding of history helps guard us from, again, those same things that plagued the church for so long, ever occurring again.

So it is critical. Church history is critical. And I only really realized that a few years ago because I was definitely of the, you know, whatever about history sort of camp.

And that's a normal place to be really for folks. You can't. It is. You can't fault folks, but you can fault folks for remain.

You can't blame blame them for ignorance unless it's willful ignorance. Right. I mean,

I think my the turning point for me was was actually a sermon series on the

Song of Songs, which was my least favorite book. And it was my pastor's favorite book.

And so he did a sermon series. And I was always I didn't know where I stood on that because it's, you know, you go back and forth on that book.

His leading argument was it's the Song of Songs, which means it has to be about Christ.

Christ is the king of kings. That's right. Lords. Therefore, if the greatest song ever written, it could only have been written about Christ.

And so at that point, he converted me on it. But from there, you then realize how much

Christ loves the church. Amen. And then you see throughout all scripture how much Christ loves the church, because when you grow up in a modern evangelical world, you think that Christ loves the world, that Christ has a heart for the lost, which, mind you, is a quote nowhere in scripture.

And from that, it was that realization of, boy, Christ really loves the church.

I don't think that highly of the church. I'm wrong. And that was really the catalyst of let me pray about this to love the church as Christ loves the church.

And as a part of that, there is the history of the church, because that is who she is and who she has been and where she has gone.

And so as one who is to love the church, you should know all you can about her. And so hence the delving into Christian history.

And we'll never plumb the depths, as they say.

Never. Oh, there's too much. There's too much. There's so much that's written. Yep. All right.

So let's hit this last point of our minion, the articles of the remonstrance, the possibility of falling from grace.

Now, we could have gone into a lot more in -depth on these, but we just want to kind of, again, set the stage because what we want to focus on are the actual doctrines of grace in the coming episodes.

So the last article of the remonstrance is the possibility of falling from grace.

It's the fifth article. The remonstrance did not utterly reject the idea of eternal security, but admitted the need, although it was later adopted as an established doctrine.

So the whole, the actual, I wish

I, you talk for just a moment about the possibility of falling from grace from the

Arminian perspective. And I'm going to see if I can find the actual article to read it. So, so I like the admitting, the admitting the need for further study.

So the Arminian, apparently the original Arminian idea of this was, we're not overtly against the perseverance of the saints, but we need to do more research,

I guess, was kind of the punt on that one. But either, right, right.

But either nobody followed through or, or they concluded something, but regardless, it then became codified as a point of Arminianism.

And this is one of the less common points of modern

Arminianism. Most Arminians really take issue on the, the beginning, the election piece.

And again, I think that's very telling. That's very indicative of that idolatry of self -will.

We want our will to be like God's will. We want free will because most

Arminians don't have an issue with the perseverance of the saints, which is, is actually,

I mean, in one way is good. In one way is bad. It's good because that's actually biblically sound because you cannot lose your salvation.

However, on a logical and rational level, that's a failing of modern Arminians because if, if you can choose your salvation, you should be able to lose it.

It makes rational sense because perseverance only comes about because of the, the, the, the sovereign will of God.

Since you did not choose to be saved, you cannot choose yourself out. But I mean, you know, if you can vote to join the union, you should be able to vote to leave the union.

So, you know, you know, that, that whole thing doesn't usually work out in history, but, but I mean, so that, that last point of Arminianism of, of traditional

Arminianism is a logical conclusion to the earlier established points of Arminian theology.

Yeah. So the actual article, this is how it reads. The fifth article of the remonstrance that those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith and have thereby become partakers of his life giving spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh and to win the victory.

It being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit and that Jesus Christ assists them through his spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand.

And if only they are ready for the conflict and desire his help and are not inactive, he keeps them from falling so that they by no craft or power of Satan can be misled nor plucked out of Christ's hand.

According to the words of Christ in John 10 28, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand, but whether they are capable through negligence of forsaking again, the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, turning away from the holy doctrine that which was delivered to them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace that must be more particularly determined out of the

Holy Scripture before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.

Right. So the summation of that is God helps those who help themselves. And I know where they got this.

So a lot of that, and you can hear because the actual language used, that is from Hebrews.

So there's that wildly debated text in Hebrews where if you take it as it is, you go, so then we can lose our self -assurance.

Hebrews 6. Right. Yeah. So, and that's where a lot of them will go. They'll go to the Hebrews passage and they'll be like, look, you can totally lose your salvation because they were once partakers, but now they have trodden it under their feet, they fall away and it's a greater judgment, so on and so forth.

Also, I think another one they try to lend themselves to is they go to the parable of the sower where, you know, there is growth and then it is snatched away.

So, and there's a danger ever using a parable to try to back any theology because parables are intentionally cryptic.

So don't teach with parables. That's not how you teach. Jesus Christ did not teach by parables.

He confused with parables. The Holy Spirit gives understanding. Right. That's right. Right. But yeah, a lot of that is the, and the problem with it, with this article being based on Hebrews six, is that you've now made an entire doctrine based on one section of scripture, which by that interpretation directly contradicts the overwhelming witness of scripture that speaks to its contrary, which is why any reformed understanding of how to interpret

Hebrews six is not, oh, look, we can lose our salvation because you can clearly go to anywhere else in the

Old and New Testament at length and say, no, this is absolutely not true. And that's one of those dangers of building an entire doctrine around an obscure or single occurrence of a particular theme.

Yeah. And they even, they even confessed there in that last statement that they weren't really, why did they even write the article?

Cause they come back and say, we're not even really able to say anything on this. Right. Right. Again, I think it's one of those because we think that we have to choose to be saved.

That must mean that we can lose our salvation. And then the best you go, it's, it's again, it's eisegesis.

You're going into the text with an opinion and you're going to find the text to support your opinion instead of having the text inform your opinion.

So, so yeah, I mean, that's, that's really what that one is. Also, what a miserable theology.

This isn't the gospel. That's not good news. Right. That's, that's, repent. It's good for a while.

Right. Repent. Christ has died for sinners. And maybe you're one of them.

Exactly. And maybe if you try hard enough, if you try hard enough, God will, God will forgive you as well.

Which almost is sarcasm again, not almost, but altogether salvation by works.

It is. It is. Now, and again, and I think that it's very important that there is a distinction between the institution and the individual.

There is a distinction on these. So legalism, you have the two ends of legalism and on one end you have

Roman Catholicism and on the other end you have Arminianism. As doctrines, as institutions,

I will say that they are false. However, there are Roman Catholics that are

Christian and there are Arminians that are Christian. I have brothers in both camps. We have fellowship with one another.

And again, and it's one of those things that because by sound biblical doctrines, since we know that salvation is all of Christ, even

Roman Catholics can be saved and even Arminians can be saved. They may believe they had a hand in their salvation, but they did not.

We believe all manner of, of our own involvement in our own blessings, not just that of justification.

I could very easily, and I fall into this often, look at all that I have in life and say,

I've worked hard to get this. I mean, in that there is, there is a self praise and that's absolutely false.

God provided these things. So we may believe that we accomplished something by our own will, but it is only

God, which again, you know, which by the grace of God, it is that because if it was actually dependent upon anything that I've done,

I'd, I would have nothing. So, so, you know, it's as, as important,

I believe is as election and predestination as these things are.

There is still a place that we must be charitable and we must be compassionate.

And we must seek for fellowship with those in the name of Christ because it is not our place to question, you know, even, even that question posed, well, are you really saved?

I'm like, well, where's that in scripture? I'm like, nobody challenges someone's salvation. The, the check is what doctrine they speak.

And largely that caution is against teachers. There are strict warnings about what a teacher will teach.

Don't let that preacher preach something contrary to scripture. But when it comes to the guy sitting in the pew next to you, long suffering, patience, forgiveness,

I mean, there is a lot of, of unity language with your fellow congregant, whether they be

Roman Catholic or Arminian. So, because again, you don't get into heaven.

What is it? You don't show up at the gate and then they hand you a quiz on reformed theology and you can't get in unless you get a high enough score.

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like, can you tell me what the queen court, queen courticular controversy was? Right, right.

You know, and, and, and we reformers end up in this really strange irony of almost making reformed tradition equal to scripture as well.

And I'm like, that sounds very Roman Catholic. Yeah. Yeah. We, and we, we, we got to do what's the apostle

Paul teach. Keep ourselves in check. Right. Keep under our self -discipline according to the word of God.

So that's really what that, that term, that word reform comes from, from the larger phrase, right?

The church reformed and always being reformed according to the word of God. Yep.

So we've had a fruitful episode. Absolutely. I am super excited about the next episode.

So, so we're going to be digging in beginning with total depravity. Next episode, we'll be examining scripture, what the scripture says about total depravity.

Uh, the next episode following, of course, unconditional election, the next episode, limited atonement, irresistible grace, uh, and perseverance of the saints.

Last of all, these doctrines ought to be a source of humility and comfort to the

Christian, not a source of pride for us to rise up and assume that we are better than anybody else.

So with that being said, Greg, you got any last words? Um, uh, to quote

Calvin, no one has ever been condemned from drinking too much of the font of grace. Um, so, so, so Calvin of all men had a very high view of grace and personally being a

Calvinist, that's always something to be humbling because as you said, it is, it is very easy to become arrogant and ungracious as a

Calvinist. Um, Calvinists tend to be tragically some of the least gracious Christians because look, we figured it all out.

Um, I, I, I firmly believe that reformed theology is superior to almost all other theologies.

However, um, it is only by the grace of God that we even understand such things.

Um, so we, we ought to be gracious and humble ourselves, um, and pray that God will continue to humiliate us, uh, to keep us there.

So yeah. Yeah. So those are my closing thoughts on it. Those are great words. All right. We look forward to talking with y 'all next time.