Inclusivism Cross Exam

John Brown, the Unevangelized, and the Fate of Rejected Salvation

Of, let's say, John Brown, to use just a fictional name. His sins are born by Jesus Christ, and yet he is not even one of the un-evangelized. He actually has heard the gospel and he rejects the gospel.

I'm not sure exactly what your position is on, I know that Dr. Pinnock, and I'm not sure of all the differences that exist between the two of you on your understanding of these specific issues, but what is your understanding as to the state of John Brown?

Is he going to abide under the wrath of God? And the question would be, why would the wrath of God find a place in John Brown in light of the fact that all of his sins, including his unbelief, were nailed to the cross of Christ?

Why would he suffer, if he does suffer, in eternity?

Yeah.

Well, the rejection of the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ is what, for someone from my Arminian perspective, is, okay, if you reject the gift, what's left? If you, or anyone, John Brown, says to God, I'm not coming to your party, you know, the parable of the king's son's wedding, invite them all, go out in the highways and byways, and all the, it says the good and the bad, bring them in.

But there's one guy who comes in, and he's got his own agenda for, hey, I'll come to the party, but on my terms, and he's not accepted. So if one rejects the gift that God has given in Jesus Christ, then what has God to do with that person?

Now, here, again, this is going to get libertarian versus compatibilistic freedom, so from my perspective, what has God to do? Override his freedom?

No.

So God gives the person, then, what that person wants, which is, I don't want you, God, and God grants that person.

So they're punished for their not wanting God, but not for their sins?

Well, it's a denial of the gift. Now, you can say, well, is that the sin of the Holy Spirit? The sin against the Holy Spirit, or whatever it is, some people who suggest that.

Erasmus, the Reformation, and the Bondage of the Will

Now, I found it very interesting, and I'm, again, not certain of the exact interface between your own position and Dr. Pinnock's, but he made this comment that I'm sure you're familiar with, you've read, I'm sure you've, in fact, I think he either cited your book in manuscript form, or you cited his book in manuscript form, and they came out right around the same time, as I recall.

It would seem that the moderation of Erasmus is winning out over the harshness of Luther and Calvin, was his statement. The look on your face is, oh, good old Clark, I can just see that right now. Now, since Luther identified the issue of man's will, and especially man's bondage to sin, and hence the supremacy of grace, as the very hinge upon which the entire Reformation turned, does it not fall that to side with Erasmus is to side against the Reformers themselves?

Boy, I'm not sure I'd agree that the whole Reformation.

Turned on that.

Well, but Luther, I was saying that, that was Luther's assertion.

Well, Luther liked the bondage of the will, even in later life, he still liked the book.

He did.

Am I rejecting the Reformers? Well, of course, I reject certain aspects of their theology. Is this the crux of the Reformation? I guess I wouldn't concur that it is.

You wouldn't see monergism and synergism as being at least one of the absolutely central issues between the Reformers, the initial Reformers, and Rome?

Well, it is an issue, though there are Roman Catholics on both sides of that, even in that time. But does, okay, if one's going to follow the, be a protestant, a protester, does one have to believe in monergism?

Well, I'll just be blunt. I am much more affected by what are called the radical Reformers, the Anabaptist tradition, than I am, though my theology, all my professors really come from Calvin, but I have been, myself, more influenced in that train of thought.

And recently, I'll say that Eastern Orthodox theology, going back prior to Augustine, the theologians in the church prior to Augustine, has had a huge impact on me, including the affirmation of libertarian freedom and the role of the Holy Spirit and all that sort of thing.

Okay.

John 6, Divine Giving, and Cross-Examination

Could I ask you to, in your rebuttal, you had indicated that we were at loggerheads on John 6. Could I ask you how you understand Jesus's statement there at the beginning of verse 37, when he says, all that the Father gives me will come to me?

How do you understand that from your perspective?

Yeah, well, you can ask. I'm not sure I'm gonna give you a good, decent answer.

I'm not gonna give you a good answer.

That's what cross-examination's for.

This is not a passage that I have spent any amount of time working over. If you wanted to ask me about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart or something like that, I have a lot of material on that, but, which you did bring up.

But on this one, I have never, when I do teach Bible, it's Old Testament.

I don't, I'm sorry, I don't want to ask you to put something out there that you wouldn't have an opportunity to look at, but would you, just in the last minute and a half that we have here, one of the things, I'm sure you would admit, you even said in your book, that you really weren't writing for someone coming from my perspective.

You said, you know, you're speaking more to your fellow Arminian people who would, wouldn't it strike you, though, as it strikes me, and I don't know how many Reform folks you've talked to in the past about these particular issues, I'm sure a number, but wouldn't it strike you that, especially on issues like this, and especially since I read, for example, your article in Jets in June of 2002 in response to Bruce Ware, I think you can see where a lot of these issues interface.

I don't see a lot of exegesis in this material of the issues that just jump up like John Six to me and go, here's a big red flag. Just briefly in the few minutes, why do you think that is?

Well, you and I definitely disagree on whether scripture determines this issue. I think there are many issues in church history that scripture is underdetermined. It is, a range of views have been drawn out, and it's typical that people say, well, this is the only view.

I mean, this is the right view. But on the unevangelized, I really don't believe that the scriptures pointedly ask the very question that we're asking and go after it. And so I have to work from themes.

And clearly, you and I are working from a set of different themes in scripture, have come to different overarching models for how God works, who God is, and how God works in terms of salvation. But I can say that, yeah, all that the Father gives me come to me.

You see it as selecting specific individuals, and I see it as a cooperation with the divine will that the ones the Father has given the Son are the ones who turn to faith with the information. This would include Abraham for me and Moses.