Do Fathers Need More Skin to Skin Time with Their Babies?

Babies, when they're younger, when they're newborns, one of their reflexes is when they feel skin on the side of their face, their first instinct is to turn.

Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include, but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies.

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject Christ, therefore, forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your host, Harrison Kerrig, and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age-old question, do fathers need skin-to-skin time with their babies?

Now, Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us? I tried so hard to keep a straight face. Oh man, I tried so hard. The question's hilarious. What Bible verse do you have for us?

1 Corinthians 16, 13 says, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

You know, I was really thinking when we started this episode, when I was asking you before we started recording, hey, do you have a Bible verse for this? I wasn't sure that you were gonna say yes, just because there's certainly things that we could go to, but when you're opening an episode with a Bible verse, you typically need the Bible verse to be fairly straightforward, and you only need to make one or two logical steps to get to the point, and so I was wondering how are you gonna get something that's that concise on an issue, like should fathers need skin-to-skin time?

But you did it.

You did it. You also have the Paul being tender as a nursing mother to his children.

Well, don't you know? I mean, Jesus talked about being a mother hen, so.

Yeah, gathering his brood to him.

Like a mother hen.

So that's gotta be.

That's feather-to-feather.

That's gotta be a feather-to-feather, skin-to-skin proof text right there.

There you go.

If I ever saw one, but okay, all right. We've been laughing. Tim, explain, all right, just to pull the veil back a little bit on this episode, this is. What now, the third recording?

Yeah.

Fourth recording, something like that, where, I mean, I literally couldn't even get through the intro. I would just bust out laughing halfway through.

Hey, this is a very serious topic, Harrison. Skin-to-skin is no laughing matter.

Certainly, certainly, and I need to go.

Don't you know that all those Russian babies died in Russian orphanages because no one was there to touch them?

I need to go repent because I'm taking this critical topic.

I mean, if you take away a father's ability to have skin-to-skin with their baby, you're literally killing them.

Okay, Tim, why is this question so funny?

So, yeah, I mean, what's happening here? Like the idea of skin-to-skin on the face of it is just somewhat of an absurd proposition, right? So, like, the idea is that babies are fit, like, they're made in such a way by God, and I think science will prove this.

And people, you know, they, we were asking this question, and people brought up articles related to this, but science has basically demonstrated this as well, which is just, it's not really a very insightful observation or whatever, but then, like, skin-to-skin contact with a baby is good for the baby for a variety of reasons, including, like, regulating their body temperature and developmentally helping them and everything else, right?

So, like, there are physical benefits that come from this, but then if you think about the way that God has designed human beings, okay? If you think about the way that God has designed human beings, the primary method that a baby would get skin-to-skin contact is going to be during breastfeeding.

That's the way it works, okay? So, like, that's how that baby is designed, like, his mother, his mother's body, which is not covered in, like, man hair, right? So, you have a mother's body who is not covered in man hair, and, like, some big, you know, strong, muscular thing or whatever else.

Like, that's, like, a mom's body is, like, women have, like, 20 body fat, right? Like, even, like, a lady who's in shape or whatever will have, like, 20 body fat or something like that on her because she's designed to be soft.

She's designed to be comfortable. She, like, her body is designed to nurture a baby. That's the way it works, right? So, her body is literally designed to do this, and then you take a baby, and you breastfeed that baby if you're a mom, right?

So, you do that kind of thing, and she's designed to provide all those benefits to the baby. That's the way this thing actually works, right? So, God's designed her in such a way to do that. Now, I mean, if you think about, like, the stereotypical man body that's, like, covered in hair or something like that and filled with muscles or something, like, who wants, like, what skin-to-skin are you talking about, right?

Like, that's not really, like, that's like laying on a carpet, you know?

Yeah, in my mind, it's just, like, I mean, sure, you know, it's totally fine, you know, if a husband or if, you know, if a father, like, falls asleep and the baby falls asleep on top of you or whatever, you're laying on the couch, you know, taking a nap in the middle of the day, no shirt on, I mean, whatever, but then to emphasize it as a need is weird.

Yeah, so what the medical professionals have discovered is they've discovered that baby needs, you know, consistent, regular skin-to-skin time, like, particularly when they're first born, you know? So, you have some doctors, like, talking about it along those lines, like, this is something that happens at a hospital or whatever, but then that's not actually, I mean, you look at these things on WebMD or whatever, like, for the baby for the first, like, six weeks of their life, they need regular physical contact with another human being, that's what they need.

They're made to have that, like, and not only just, like, physical contact, but, like, skin-to-skin contact, that's what they need, and that's what a mom is designed to do, you know? Like, a mom is literally biologically designed to do that.

Now, like, as odd as it would be for everyone just to disrobe in order to, like, I mean, it should be, like, an odd concept for everyone to think, hey, let's all just lay around with no clothes on in order to bond with our baby or something like that.

Like, that's a weird concept, but, I mean, obviously, like, like, when you're asking a question like this, do babies need skin-to-skin time or skin-to-skin time from your dad, like, biologically, like, this is something that is good for the baby, it's also good for the mom or whatever, right?

But then, like, you look at the evidence or whatever in the literature, it's not actually good for the dad because he's not really made to do that, right? So, one of the things, like, it'll still, like, if you have, like, non-hairy men, and one of the things that's happened because testosterone levels have decreased, a lot of men are a lot more smooth-skinned, they're more like Jacob and less like Esau, right?

But, I mean, if you imagine, like, Esau having skin-to-skin with his baby, like, Esau is kind of, like, the stereotypical man, right? Like, you imagine him, like, he, Jacob fooled his father, Israel, by putting, like, a goat's pelt on his arms.

So, you imagine, like, that kind of man,.

You say, hey, yeah,.

Do you think that it would be smart for you to take your shirt off and let your baby lay on your rug? You know, and it's just like, that's not what men are designed for, right? And so, you know, the science will even show that men get nothing out of it, you know?

So, here's the issue. Like, we're living in an egalitarian society right now, and what you have is you have a lot of people.

Who basically, like,.

Because you're living in that egalitarian society, they don't understand the difference between a man and a woman. So, like, in past generations, like, you'd have men who would recoil at the thought of even holding a baby very much, because that's a woman's job.

And so, you go from that to everyone basically overreacts. And now we're at a point where, like, all these things are just, like, absolutely interchangeable. So, like, the idea that the baby, like, needs to be around her mom more than around her dad during the early six weeks of, you know, their life or whatever, like, most people aren't even on board with that assumption at all anymore, right?

So, like, the idea is now, like, most women, like, like, I was looking at the stats recently. I mean, I think it's something, like, pretty depressing about, like, breastfeeding rates. But, you know, a lot of women are switching to formula at this point.

And then, you know, you have, you know, men and women who are both sharing the load, bottle feeding the baby because they're all formula at this point to, for a wide variety of reasons, most of which are the women are working, you know, they're in the workforce.

And so then they can't, you know, continue the pumping or whatever, even if they try to do that. So, but basically you got, you have a situation now where both man and woman are assumed to have, like, equal responsibility in all of these nurturing roles with, like, young children, right?

This isn't something that's predominantly a lady activity anymore. So then, like, the next step is that, well, hey, baby actually needs skin-to-skin contact in order to be okay, right? It's like, well, you don't have, like, situations where there's an expectation that, yeah, that's kind of what the mom is biologically made to do, right?

Like, so during while she's breastfeeding, so now there's not even, like, an assumption of breastfeeding. There's assumption that all these roles are shared. And so now what you have is you have a situation where men will go to the hospital and, like, the doctors will get men to take their shirts off while they're at the hospital and hold their baby to their, you know, their naked chest while they're at the hospital in order to give this baby, like, to nurture this baby as their first act of nurturing, right?

And so then you have a bunch of moms who are, like, thinking, hey, yeah, baby needs that. And so if you love the baby, you're gonna give them that. And that'll help you bond with them and everything else.

And it's just like, that doesn't really help a man bond with a baby. Like, this is just kind of like, these are all weird thoughts, right? So, like, these are all weird thoughts. These are all weird impulses.

Now, I mean, like, to address the kind of thing you're talking about, if you're an individual who, like, if you're just laying around the shirt with your house off, with your, you're laying, you're laying around the shirt with your house off, you're laying around your house with your shirt off, whatever, your wife plops the baby on your chest or whatever, I don't think a man should, like, recoil in terror at the thought of, oh, my baby's touching my skin, you know, what am I gonna do, or something like that.

But, like, what's being addressed in this conversation, like, do men need more skin-to-skin time with their baby, is you basically have a role reversal kind of conversation. So, you have men who have been persuaded, by virtue of living in an egalitarian society, that it's their job to nurture their babies with their bodies, as if they were women, right?

So, then they're gonna intentionally take off their shirts and hold their babies to their bosoms. And in order to do for these babies what the mom is supposed to be doing for them, what God made the mom to do for them in breastfeeding, right?

And so, then what you have is you have people who are looking at that and saying, hey, it's my job to nurture, too, with no indication of how weird any of this actually is, you know? And so, then you're at a point where it's just like, hey, yeah, you're not really even, you're not talking about, like, is it wrong to hold your baby, or do you need to hold your baby more, or maybe help out changing a diaper every once in a while, or helping with the bottle, or something like that.

You're now at the point where men have fully taken on all these things to the point where now they're even trying to disrobe in order to provide physical skin-to-skin warmth with their babies, because they are so mixed up in how all these things were designed to happen in general.

Yeah, I mean, it's just so weird. This is just so weird to me, because I have kids, and when they were both really small babies, I mean, I'm sure there was times, I know there was times where I was at our home, and at some point, the same exact situation happened to me that you described earlier, where it's like I'm laying down on the couch, I don't have a shirt on, and a baby crawls onto me, or climbs onto me somehow, and then just lays down, and it's like, well, okay, whatever, I'm just gonna hold my baby, but then I never purposefully took my shirt off for my scheduled daily skin-to-skin time, and I mean, look, I'm not the hairiest guy out there, but I'm also not the smoothest guy out there either, and babies, they have certain reflexes, especially when they're smaller, you know, that it's like.

Yeah, a nursing baby, you put them on dad.

Right, right, and when you have babies, when they're younger, when they're newborns, one of their reflexes is when they feel skin on the side of their face, their first instinct is to turn, you know, and put their mouth on whatever is right there, because they're supposed to nurse, right, and so there's been situations with me before where both of my babies, you know, they try to do that.

Thankfully, you know, I was sane enough to stop them, you know, obviously, I'm gonna.

Hey, that's the bonding time, man.

Like, nah, this ain't happening, you know, but I mean, but, you know, that's because it would not have been a pleasant experience for them, you know, and I don't think I need to explain why that wouldn't be a pleasant experience for them, but as a loving father, I know that it will be unpleasant for them, and I don't want to have to subject my babies to that, you know, when they're trying to do something that.

They obviously.

Confusing them, scarring them for life.

I mean, they're newborns. They obviously don't know what's going on, but then me as the adult needs to realize this is not how this needs to go down, so we're gonna, you know, like, you're getting moved because I'm not letting this happen.

I'm gonna get my shirt on.

But it's weird as like a, like I said earlier, I mean, it's one thing if, you know, you're just hanging around, and all of a sudden, you know, you're with your baby, whatever, who cares, whatever, but as a need, that's weird, that's real weird.

I mean, I have never in my life thought that I needed, thought that I needed skin-to-skin time, that I needed it. I needed skin-to-skin time with my babies.

Yeah, you needed skin-to-skin time with your wife.

And here's the thing, Tim, here's the thing, Tim. My kids love me, and I, you know, like I've never purposefully tried to have skin-to-skin time with them. They, I mean, like, you know, they love me, they just do.

It's obvious, and anyone would tell you that, but then I didn't get there by skin-to-skin time.

So what's happening is you have a bunch of people who actually post these pictures of themselves online now, and particularly you have like sodomites who are adopting children in the hospitals or whatever, and then you have like the, you have the, you know, the mandatory picture of them like laying in the hospital bed with their shirt off, holding their baby to their skin or whatever while they're taking the picture.

Like, so the issue is like, that's the subtext of this kind of conversation. So like what you have is you have a lot more men who are doing this kind of thing, who are posing for these kinds of pictures online and everything else.

And, you know, at some point, like sane people have to come along and say, hey, is this like, what is happening here, right? You know, so I gave the verse, like be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

And, you know, that is the verse to say, hey, well, what does it mean to be a man? Like how do, like, what kind of tool are you, okay? So what did God made you to do, right? And then just asking basic questions along these lines would lead you to certain thoughts, which would call into question this project in general, right?

So like the issue is, all right, yeah, you can do studies and the studies can show that, yeah, it's better for, like if your alternative is the baby is just gonna stay in its crib and be, you know, fed by a feeding tube from his dad while his dad's sitting on the couch, ignoring him or something like that, would it be better for that?

And like the mom's gonna be at work all day long or whatever else, would it be better for the, like the baby to get some kind of skin to skin? Would it be better for it to be with like a, you know, not completely unhairy dad or something like that?

Yeah, I mean, that would probably be better, but that doesn't mean that the man's designed to do that. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, so like in the same way, you know, you can have a dad be a stay-at-home dad.

Is that what God designed men to do? Well, would it be better to be a stay-at-home dad than a daycare worker? Yeah, probably, right? But that's still not really the way it's designed, right?

Right.

So like, so it

Better doesn't mean good all the time.

Right, right. So what is the actual design of these two human beings? And you'll see that, hey, a mother, like she's designed from start to finish to care for babies. Like she's designed to make them in her body, right?

And then her body is designed to feed them, right? So like all of these impulses and all these things, like these, like the benefits of skin to skin, they're coming from a woman, like they're designed to be fulfilled in a woman whose body is literally designed for all of that, right?

And so the more that we learn about science, the more that we realize, man, God had a lot of purposes in his design for human beings that go beyond what we even know, right? So, but the issue is like, as egalitarianism has entrenched itself into society, we basically can't tell the difference between men and women anymore.

And you're basically just trying to say, hey, men and women are interchangeable parts. Baby needs some kind of physical contact. Any one of you will do, right? Right, yeah. And so then, you know, like any one of you can feed the baby with a bottle because, you know, who's to say that a woman has to breastfeed?

You don't want to be judgmental and, you know, rude and all that and legalistic. So either one of you can feed it, either one of you can hold it, hold the baby or whatever, in like your equally competent, equally capable, you know, you love your kid, don't you?

Don't you love your kid? You know, so why wouldn't you want to have skin to skin with your kid? Because that's how you bond and all that. It's like, well, no, that's how women bond. That's not how men bond.

Because I don't need a baby trying to feed off of me.

It's funny. I mean, I've done my share of diaper changes and I've done my share of bottle feeding and everything else. And it's kind of a funny thing because it's like, you know, Elizabeth hands me the baby because she's cooking or whatever and asked me if I can feed the baby with a bottle.

And so then, you know, what do you think I do? I mean, I put the baby on the couch next to me and then I put the bottle up to his mouth and then I make their hands hold the bottle, you know, and they can't even open their hands at this point.

They're holding the bottle like this. And so then all of a sudden it starts to slip low and then I push it back up. And I mean, I'm watching them the whole time. And so like bottle feeding for me was the time where I was trying to train them.

To hold bottles.

And then Elizabeth would come in there and be like, you know, that's monstrous.

Like, what are you doing?

The baby wants to be held. It's like, well, I'm trying to teach him how to hold the bottle himself. You know, wouldn't that save some time? You know?

It's funny you say that because that's pretty much exactly how ours would go too. I was constantly trying to get the babies to learn how to hold things on their own. You know, out of a desire to see that, you know, like, hey, I'm trying to push you to, I want you to be as, you know, independent as you can possibly be as soon as possible.

I want you to be responsible. I want you to be able to do things on your own and not be relying on other people. Now, obviously, I mean, you're talking about a newborn. You have to have certain, you can't have very high expectations with that goal, but then, you know.

But then the

I think I trained my firstborn son to hold a bottle in about, you know, one and a half months.

There you go. I mean, well, here's the thing, and here's something that I think a lot of parents, and maybe this is kind of going off subject for a second, but I mean, we're talking about, we're talking about skin to skin right now.

I think I'm allowed to go off, you know, slightly off subject for a second. You know, I think a lot of parents, they kind of view parenting as this like, hey, we'll start doing things when we feel like they're ready to do that thing, right?

So we'll start getting them to hold their own bottles when we think they're ready to hold their own bottles. We'll start reading the Bible to them when we think they're able to start understanding what the Bible is actually saying, and I have not had that approach as a parent.

Mine has more just been, I'm just gonna do all the things that I think I need to do for my kids, and then they're just gonna, it'll click whenever it clicks for them. But I don't know how you can determine when your individual child is going to, you know, be able to do all of these things.

I mean, and it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. It's kind of like saying, hey, well, we're not gonna force our baby to walk. They'll walk when they're ready. And it's like, well, I mean, you can like start walking with them though.

I mean, you can pick them, you can grab their arms and hold their hands and kind of get them there, you know, help them get there. I mean, you don't know when they're gonna start doing these things. And I think if more people did that, then it'd probably be helpful for their kids.

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things to think about as it relates to this topic in general is that men and women are designed for different purposes. So I kind of shared that story of me taking that, you know, taking those moments as moments to try to actually teach your baby something useful or teach them a useful skill or something like that.

But all that indicates is that men and women are different. And this is actually a fight between like married couples on a regular basis. Like men often have the impulse with their children to be trying to push them to the next developmental stage.

And like ladies are often trying to get their husbands to pause and bask in the current stage that they're at, right? And so, I mean, this is just, I mean, this is just reflective of the fact that God's designed men and women for different purposes.

And ladies are designed to care for children, right?

Right.

So they wanna extend that out as long as they can possibly get out of it, right? And like, you know, as a man's men, I guess it's like, we're made by God to say, hey, let's teach you to be, you know, strong and courageous and independent and capable and whatever else.

So you're just oriented in two different ways. And I mean, I do think that God's designed these two impulses to war against each other a little bit and provide some kind of balance in between, right?

Right.

So, I mean, I don't think that all the man impulses are always just perfectly right and all the female impulses there are bad, but there are obviously like, you look at these two impulses and they're often fighting over the course of like your marriage and your life with kids in different ways where it's like, hey, yeah, you know what?

We have to actually teach these kids some things, you know? We can't have 20 year old kids who still haven't successfully, you know, weaned themselves off.

Yeah. Yeah, we definitely, you know, men and women obviously are meant to balance each other out with these things for sure. Yeah, because, you know, because as a dad, I am always in that mode of, you know, I need to teach you guys, you know, I need you to be as self-sufficient as you can be as soon as you can be.

And then my wife will come along and, you know, kind of reel that back in in me, but then I'm reeling in her side of things as well, where she, you know, I just wish they would be a baby forever. And I'm like, well, I don't.

Sorry, but you think about that, like why though? Why would a woman want them to be a baby forever? Well, it's because women are designed to care for children. And so a lot of this discussion does reduce to that.

Like women are designed to care for children and they're biologically designed to care for women, or care for children. And so then in this kind of discussion, what you have is you have a society who basically just lost their mind.

Like they don't even know the difference between men and women anymore. And because like a man is now doing all the nurturing stuff anyways, it's like then, yeah, I mean, take your shirt off and get your skin-to-skin time.

And like, as if you're simulating some act of breastfeeding with your child or something like that, like short of dry feeding the baby or something like that. Like it's just, it's like, these are bizarre impulses that like a sane society would take a step back and say, hey, what are we doing here?

You know, so you have these, long story short, I mean, you do have a lot of people who are posting these kinds of pictures online. And then if anyone comes along and basically says, hey, that's weird.

And what people hear, they hear is like, hey, yeah, a father doesn't have any responsibility to hold his kids ever. And he should basically ignore his kids and not be a part of their life. It's like, no, that isn't right.

But then maybe, can we just be saying that women are biologically designed by God to provide physical nurturing for this child? And maybe there are limits to the kind of things that are necessary and good here, you know?

And so like maybe, like if you were to look at, if you were to ask like throughout the history of the world, is this something that anyone has ever done? Like throughout the history of the world, have any society of men thought that they need to hold babies to their naked chest in order to provide them physical warmth and nurturing and everything else and bond with them?

And I would say that I don't think that this, this is kind of a new thing that's happening. And you might wanna ask yourself, why is this happening? And I mean, as you think about this conversation in general, it's not like the most pressing conversation on the face of it, but it does reveal a lot about where we're at as a society, where it's normal for men to take their shirts off and have skin-to-skin time, pictures with their children that they post in public, you know, in public.

Like there's something that has shifted, you know? And then just asking basic questions like, well, why did those shifts happen? And are we sure that we like really have thought about these things like we should, right?

Right.

So, you know, why was that weird before and now why is it normal? And I don't think, and I don't think it's just, just reduces to, well, now we know better with science.

Or something like that.

I think what it's actually reduces to is that we're just in the advanced stages of an egalitarian society. So now that there's, like we don't see any difference between men and women and like how they're designed and what they're created for, we're basically just interchangeable parts at this point.

And now we're doing things that past generations would have cringed in embarrassment from and having no sense that we're even doing something weird at this point.

Right, yeah. Yeah, having pride enough to assume that we know better than everyone who's come before us in a lot of these things. Okay, well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the episode on.

And, you know, it's just such a funny topic, man. I mean, it's just so silly. So silly that I couldn't even do the intro that we've done for however many episodes. I think like two or like maybe close to 300 episodes now that we've done.

And, you know, I normally don't have issues with the intro, but then every now and then, every now and then we do a question like this where it's just, it's so hard to just not bust out laughing. And even at the beginning of this one, I still busted out laughing.

I just made it far enough that we were able to use this one. So yeah, I don't know that very, that I see people discussing male skin-to-skin time the same way they would discuss abortion, for example, or all of the LGBTQ stuff or female pastors right now.

But then I think you're right. It does kind of reveal this. I think there's a much more sinister issue lying underneath the surface of this discussion that is fueling this one. And it's surprising. I mean, if you just go look at the poll that we ran on this question, I mean, it was almost unanimous that people were saying, yes, more male skin-to-skin time, make it happen kind of thing.

And it's just like, I mean, I've just never even thought about that. And my kids are turning out all right so far. I mean, honestly, you know, it just hasn't even been a consideration. So it's weird that someone would say, we need more of this to happen.

Like, no, I don't think you do. I think you're just overthinking parenting at this point and you're assigning the, you know, you're assigning the female role to the male role in a way that you shouldn't.

And I think you're trying to overcompensate for what's honestly probably just a lack of being a good, consistent parent in other areas that you know you should be. And so you're trying to anticipate that and make up for it with this weird skin-to-skin thing that is strange.

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