Ignatius in His Own Words; Problematic EFS Quotes; Doubling Down on False Judging from Afar

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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with rich So that he can tell me if I mess stuff up, but we're just gonna do the best we can

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And if there's some odd extraneous noises and things like that Please just recognize we're just doing the best we can with the technology.

01:43

We've got at the at the moment and Hopefully it'll still be useful to you and you can sort of just think back

01:49

Think back to the days of dial -up modems. Some of you don't remember the days of dial -up modems

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I do remember the days of dial -up modems. I'm just good if I turn my volume down like that You may you may actually have to either text me rich because I can't

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I can't see the thing where I can bring up the the Chat window type thing on this so anyways

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We'll just do the best you may either have to do that or use

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Twitter or something because I do have Twitter up but I I've got a 15 -inch screen but too many things on it.

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So oh There is that there is Facebook sort of it's all good.

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Okay Well, let's hope it stays that way unless I try to share my oh, yeah,

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I even get that Look, I even got that on my watch. It's all good Anyway, I'm having a great time up here.

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I Did I've already told my wife this so I guess I can tell everybody else I had the closest call on a bike

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I've ever had today really did. I Even have the video but I'm not gonna show you the video. I Have a sometimes when

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I ride I will have an HD camera and an HD back And you see some interesting things that way well,

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I Haven't completely figured out what happened today but I was descending high altitude around 11 ,000 feet and it was windy and My theory is

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I got hit by blast of wind And you know how sometimes it'll it'll hit you from one direction and but if it's spinning

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It's you from one direction than the other direction and it started a shimmy in the front end of my bike

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I simply couldn't control and I'm in a turn at over 30 miles an hour with oncoming traffic and I can't stay in the turn

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I'm heading right toward and The the video shows me missing the second vehicle because he swerved

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By about six inches and it was it was yeah. Mm -hmm. That was an experience

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So I'm actually gonna put that video on my iPad Tomorrow I'm gonna take the take the bike in to and say

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I'd like you to sort of look at that really carefully and just you know, just make sure cuz

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I'm gonna be descending 21 ,000 feet Over the over the weekend.

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So I'd sort of like to not have that I descended over 4 ,000 feet after that without any problems.

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So Uh, the wind was really blowing so up at those altitudes you can get some really wacky stuff happening.

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So Once in a lifetime thing. Anyways, why am I telling you these things? I'm gonna be getting I do not want any of the tweets and everything else about how

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I I shouldn't ride a bike I'm not gonna not gonna happen. Anyway, lots of stuff to get to today and Unfortunately, I'm not gonna be able to see

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What Twitter is doing most that time because I you know This is when this is when you are reminded of how wonderful it is

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To have four different screens or like on my desk. I have two of the

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Apple screens up there are big huge things and because now when you're on your laptop and Of course,

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I fried my laptop power supply It's just it's just that it

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I guess that happens and I'm gonna have to schedule a stop at an Apple store on my way down to Santa Fe But thankfully my hosts have one that is keeping the keeping the unit running so that's how we're able to do this

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Yeah, this is that you brought the the lamp from letters to a Mormon elder to all the way to Colorado That actually is

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The same lamp But the actual lamp that's on the front of letters to Mormon elder is actually sitting on my desk in my office but it is the exact same green bankers lamp and They just seem to follow me around so only summer would recognize that but Evidently the clarity of the camera and I'm just using the standard little camera that's up there a little green light thing on my laptop

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Um Okay, here's what we want to do today. I want to talk about Ignatius of Antioch and Muslims and the

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Trinity and consistency of Sources and scholars haven't talked about that before Want to talk a little bit about the

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Trinitarian controversy and the fact that it doesn't really matter What you say about it, you're gonna end up getting shot by both sides

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As it seems to be my lot these days I am discovering that if you actually try to ask folks to Engage in apologetics or polemics

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In a fair fashion that that will only earn you A gunfire from both sides of whatever issue it is that you're trying to actually see discussed in a meaningful fashion

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So I want to talk a little bit about some some quotes that were posted recently by from Bruce Wears book and and then we do need to talk a little bit about The controversy from last week

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So we'll see how long all that takes or we'll just see how long Skype manages to stay connected that's

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There's always been a theory in some people's minds that after about 20 minutes the little Skype demons start disconnecting things

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Just the fun of it. So who knows it's possibility. It's possibility anyway, a

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Yesterday A well -known

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Christian apologist to Muslims shared with me

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Some comments that were made to him by a particular

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Muslim apologist and They were very disappointing Comments because they were very clearly intended to seek to Divide seek to create division

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Well, I guess divide and create division are pretty much the same thing, huh? So discord and In essence they were not designed to help the cause of truth

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They were designed to actually diminish our pursuit of truth this particular

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Muslim apologist I'm not really sure how to express my feelings in regards this particular individual, but he

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Is probably either watching right now or recording because Almost anything

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I say will be utilized frequently a contextually And never with any fairness always with a huge amount of bias.

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It's just it's just horrible but it seems that that I sort of define his life for him, which

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I find sad for anybody to be very honest with and So he was attempting to bring division between me and this other individual and in a very childish fashion to be perfectly honest with you very very obvious and and certainly nothing that you could show much respect for and Around the same time he put out a video

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Addressing the issue of Ignatius of Antioch and This obviously

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Ignatius came up in the debates that we did with elder a cop and The GOCC and by the way,

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I am well aware of the fact that YouTube is now filled with Videos of Me with horns

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Pitchfork And burning in flames and Basically every possible insult

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That could suggest itself to the fevered mind of man Has appeared over the past two weeks ever since I dared disagree with Black Hebrew Israel ism

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I'm all aware of that. I'm not actually while up here I don't even have time even if I wanted to and I don't want to Keeping up with that stuff right now.

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If vocab alone sends me a link. I'll take a look at it. And by the way Our plan is

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I don't think the dates have been firmly Absolutely established yet but my plan is to our plan is

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To I wish there was a way I could minimize just that window

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Anyway, my plan is to actually have vocab come in and he and rich and some guests will actually have

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Have two programs while I'm gone with folks who know this movement inside and out know its history and again, the idea being eventually what we want is a

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Resource that people can go to and they can they can watch these videos and In the majority of the instances do so without having to have a profanity filter on and here meaningful solid

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Discussions of the issues raised by Hebrew Israel ism as well as a discussion of the the wild -eyed racism

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That is expressed by the black Hebrew Israelite movement just the

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Horrific nastiness of it and By the way, I might might note as well that I was just sent an article by someone

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About the recent shootings and of course they decide just to take a shot at me and refer back to the old

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Ron articles You know this this does illustrate what we'll be talking about later on once something appears on the internet no matter how absurd it is

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How untrue it is? It will be repeated over and over again There is no truth filter in the

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Internet and You know as long as someone makes a false accusation that out that false accusation will just take on a life of its own forever

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I think that's one of the reasons that God takes truth speaking so seriously and One of the commandments is that we are not to lie

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That we are to be people who speak with truth and and that therefore we should be very very slow to make accusation

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Especially against individuals because God takes that seriously. But anyway like I said, someone sent me the an article and and They were taking further shots

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And I I will just mention in passing. I went on to the RAAN website the wrong website reformed african -american network

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And I I typed in Hebrew Israel ism Because I sort of figured hey if anyone's gonna you know

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If anyone has taken this movement on it's gonna be the wrong folks, right? Because I mean this is impacting the black church.

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It is it is just really really Amazing stuff and This should be there should be pages of articles because how many articles they write about me six months ago for daring to address the rebellious activities of a black teenager

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Why you know there if that could get two or three articles then good grief something that's been going on for years that has

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You know clearly not only Damaged black churches, but is just so deeply

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Indicative of a of a horrific attitude of racism. They're just there should be dozens and dozens of articles.

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Well, there's no None I could find at least not under that that name and it just made me go.

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Hmm strange how that works I Don't see the

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BHI guys going after them, but they will go after me For some strange reason and I I sort of have to wonder why that is anyways all that to a circular trip back to the fact that This article this video was posted

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Talking about Ignatius and what it did is it you know played?

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Unitarian Webcasts and and tried to cobble together and it's again all due respect, but the person put together is not a historian and Has not ever taught history to my knowledge

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It's not published in any type of historical field I like that and so it's real easy for them to just sort of cobble things together

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Figuring that their audiences is not going to be a really concern about the sources you're using as to whether they are consistent or anything else

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Obviously for Christians what we want to know is we want to ask the question if we look at Ignatius of Antioch What did he believe?

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he's very important because he lives he dies about 108 ad and So you're you're talking about?

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contemporaneous With John With the last of the

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Apostles so that very important period of time In which we only have things like probably the did a

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K Clement We just don't have much

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Nor should we expect to have much I mean persecution had already begun.

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This is a small movement generally speaking And so the idea of having a huge amount of literature

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Wouldn't make any sense But we do have some thankfully and Ignatius is epistles live and breathe the primitive church and hence are very important to us because of that and The question is what did

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Ignatius believe now, it's funny if my Muslim friends I'm talking about the BHI guys. Let's make sure that we've got our groups

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Our groups clear here because I'll I got it I've got to be honest with you

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I've never had any Muslims any Muslims now. I've seen Muslims go after David Wood And Sam Shamoon In the same way that the

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BHI folks go after me, but I've never had any Muslim even the Muslims I would identify as the most reprehensible and they're in their

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Research or their bias or their prejudice or whatever else it might be I've I've never had any of them come after me the way that the

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BHI people did not not even close not even close Hey, you know finally someone has made the

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King James only people look like they're on Prozac and it's the BHI folks, so Should should make mention of that so What the

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Muslims should be talking about Is Does did

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Ignatius believe what we would say is The proper primitive

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Christian belief in other words if Jesus was merely a prophet if he did not instruct his followers to go out into the world and preach the gospel all nations and Proclaim his name to all the nations and to worship him

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Then here you have a very early leader because they always want to talk about the Ebionites But the fact matter is we know almost nothing about the

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Ebionites almost everything we know about the Ebionites. We know secondhand at best It's it's primarily speculation

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When it comes to constructing the Ebionite Perspective and belief so if if we had a fair approach what you would have from Muslims would be well, here's an early

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Christian leader and He believes what we believe he believes Jesus was merely a prophet But the fact is that is not what they're doing instead what they're arguing is.

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Well look He does not enunciate a Try a

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Council of Nicaea level definition of the doctrine of the Trinity and Therefore he wasn't a

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Trinitarian well The New Testament doesn't contain the

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Nicene Creed and if we understand What the appropriateness of what

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BB Warfield has said and what I have said in regards to The nature of Trinitarian Revelation and that is that the early church was experientially

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Trinitarian and therefore the illusions that they will make to the doctrine of the

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Trinity will will flow from natural discussion they will not be and here is a creedal statement of this they will they will more be found in the illustrations and the language in in the

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Association of Father Son and Spirit the switching between Father Son and Spirit is so easily seen in the

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New Testament and That's exactly we have in Ignatius. That's exactly what we have in Ignatius and So I would simply say to our

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Muslim friends. You cannot make Ignatius your own and So let's let's listen to Ignatius himself well, that'd be nice to be able to play an mp3, huh?

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let's let's hear what Ignatius said and Let's ask ourselves the question

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Could this have been? Said by a

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Muslim or By the theoretical disciples that the

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Muslims assert existed in the days of Well would have existed 108 ad

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When Ignatius wrote to the Ephesians and you know what I need to Do do do do do do do do do?

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Small print. Oh look at that. Oh It's wonderful to have

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I mean that is so nice and clear Anyway, Ignatius who is also the operas under her which hath been blessed in greatness to the plenitude of God the

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Father Which hath been for ordained before the ages to be forever unto abiding and unchangeable glory united and elect in a true passion

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By the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God Even under the church, which is an

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Ephesus of Asia worthy of all felicitation abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy, so that's how he begins his letter to the

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Ephesians now some people have actually accused Ignatius of modalism. I think that's a gross misreading and And reading all of Ignatius there are clear differentiations made between the

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Father and the Son just as there are in the New Testament, but Just as we have references the deity of Christ in 2nd

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Peter 1 1 for example In introductory clauses and phrases here.

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You have a discussion of God's for ordination

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There's it's a lot of discussion of for donation and election and all sorts of stuff and the earliest writings of the

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New Testament People seem to ignore that For a day before the ages to be forever unto abiding and change an unchangeable glory united and elect in a true passion by the will of the

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Father and of Jesus Christ our God Of Strong terminology and You have

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Jesus being associated in terms of deity with the Father Now he's a monotheist so What do you derive from that?

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Oh But it doesn't say father son and Holy Spirit There's there's all sorts of places in the

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New Testament that likewise does not use all three persons Although there's over 70 places where they are associated with one another

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There are all sorts of places where you only have the Father and the Son so the argument has never been from our perspective that it is the

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That every single time you have to have a reference to all three divine persons Let's let's read some others because it's the it's the cumulative evidence that I think is so overwhelming

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It's not any one particular text also to the church at Ephesus My spirit has made an off scouring for the cross, which is a stumbling block to them that are unbelievers

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But to us salvation life eternal, where is the wise where is the dispute or where is the boasting of them that are called prudent?

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Again, obviously Ignatius knows about first Corinthians because he's quoting directly from that For our

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God Jesus the Christ Was conceived in the womb by Mary according to a dispensation of the seed of David also the

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Holy Ghost and he was born It was baptized that by his person. He might cleanse water

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Ephesians section 18 now What do you do with that?

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How do you understand that? But one of my concerns is that our

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Muslim friends Are seemingly Willing to Present as truth that which might help them while disputing its speakers corner but not that which would ever reflect a consistent historical methodology that they would then apply to their own their own faith and One of the things that they need to come up with is a meaningful explanation of what

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Positively was Ignatius his doctrine. What was his Christology? What was his theology proper and To Determine that you need to understand explain why he repeatedly uses the term the

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OS of Jesus and Then he does so he speaks of him as conceived in the womb by Mary's.

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There's a concept of supernatural conception which Muslims agree with Of the seed of David, but also the

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Holy Ghost and so now you have This really interesting conjunction of spiritual

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Conception buddies of the seed of David So you have and we're gonna have very explicitly it out for us

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Elsewhere well in the very next section actually In Ignatius, there is a very high

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Doctrine of the relationship between the human and the divine in Jesus This is not something that develops you see it's really easy to find liberal historians

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And that's what they did in this video find liberal historians who will adopt the perspective that Christian theology can must be understood as a naturalistic process that developed over time now was there development in Christian theology

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Of course there was because the gospel goes out Into the world it's encountering things

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That's never encountered before questions being asked in languages and categories that have never been asked before And so there of course there's going to be developed there has to be to fulfill the

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Great Commandment The commandment says to go into all the world We're going to all the world you're gonna have to address the questions that come from all the world so, of course there is but the naturalistic idea is that there is no foundational core of divine

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Revelation to which reference is constantly being made. It's just simply You know from their perspective.

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It's it's human Human development over time and that's where a lot of this school or religion thought comes where you've got the idea that Anything in religion is just has to be borrowed from somebody else and of course the

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BHI guys are into that You know if you worship on a Sunday and anyone else has ever worshipped on a

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Sunday then you just must have gotten it from them there there can be no other reason and This type is this type of thinking is very common amongst

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Conspiratorialists and people like that. It's very hard to reason with them but that's that's what's out there and so The idea being that the development of this high

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Christology must have been way down the road even post council And I see it but here in 108 you have a doctrine of Jesus That is extremely advanced

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To nature's one person the whole nine yards and it's it's apostolic

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I mean These are called the apostolic fathers that live in the period when the Apostles had had lived in that those first few generations

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So the the Holy Ghost is mentioned and so then the very next Section in Ephesians Ephesians 19 from that time forward every sorcery and every spell was dissolved the ignorance of wickedness vanished away

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The ancient kingdom was pulled down quote or the noses when God appeared in the likeness of man

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Unto newness of everlasting life and that which had been perfected in the counsels of God began to take effect

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And so God appeared in the likeness of man. What is that if it is not John chapter 1?

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The the incarnation the Word made flesh, etc, etc So this is this is what is expressed to the

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Ephesians in to the Romans Ignatius who is also the operas under her that hath found Mercy and the bountifulness of the

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Father Most High and of Jesus Christ is only Son To the church that is beloved and enlightened through the will of him who willed all things that are

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Sounds like our Calvin's to me by faith and love towards Jesus Christ our

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God Even under her at half the presidency in the country the region the Romans now just really quickly in passing you'll notice there's no bishop addressed

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Elsewhere bishops are addressed But there's no bishop addressed and the reason there's no bishop address is because there was no single bishop in Rome at this time that Really is the the clearest evidence and that's fatal to Rome's pretensions

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But it's it's there Then we have in section 3 only pray that I may have power within and without so that I may not only say

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Say it but also desire that I may not only be called a Christian but also be found remember He's on his way to Rome to be a martyr.

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He's going to his death For I shall be found So then can I also be called one and be faithful then when

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I am no more visible to the world? Nothing visible is good for our God Jesus Christ being in the father is the more plainly visible the work is not a persuasiveness but Christianity is the thing of might once whoever it is hated by the world and so You know, he's not writing to the

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Romans some theological treatise but His belief in the deity of Christ and yet the distinction between the father and the son just Flows naturally in his description even here of his coming martyrdom and that's why

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I say Ignatius It's so much like the New Testament in the sense that the references to the Trinity References to the

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Trinity will Be just natural. They just to just flow in your description of what's going on I got folks

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DMing me. I guess it's it's sort of hard to do this guys When you when you have

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You know right in the middle of the program so if you could avoid that that would be that would be helpful to the

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Smyrnians We read I give glory to Jesus Christ the

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God who bestowed such wisdom upon you where I perceive that you are established in faith and movable being as it were as it were nailed to the

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Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ in flesh and in spirit I Emphasize that because it's my

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Muslim friends that are raising questions about Ignatius And don't you don't you deny the cross?

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Don't you doesn't surah 4 1 2 7 force you to take such a massively a historical perspective and it does

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But of course That is that is a debate that Cannot be lost to be perfectly honest with you

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It's it's an established fact Being as it were nailed to the cross the Lord Jesus Christ in flesh and in spirit and firmly grounded in love in the blood

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Of Christ fully persuaded as touching our Lord that he is truly of the race of David according to flesh

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But son of God by the divine will and power Truly born of a virgin and baptized by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by him

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Truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the Tetrarch of which fruit are we that is of his most blessed passion

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That he might set up an end sign unto all the ages through his resurrection For his saints and faithful people whether among Jews or among Gentiles in one body of his church

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Wow, I mean that is I That's deep that is deep theology in the very first generation

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After the Apostles look at all the stuff that's touched upon there the Son of God and you know two persons virgin birth

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The historicity of the crucifixion Pontius Pilate Resurrection Jews and Gentiles a hem a hem a hem to those who are perverting the scriptures today called black

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Hebrew Israelite movement All within the opening line of his letter to the

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Smyrnians deep stuff and that's why if you'll You know always remember when when people dispute

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Texts of Scripture they dispute early church fathers and things like that what they will normally do is they'll normally attack a particular text and Not the body as a whole it's it's not difficult to twist

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What a particular writer said by only quoting You know a little section here or a little section there

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It's when you have to work through for example the entire chapter of a book You know you can get around John chapter 6 as long as you don't have to walk through John chapter 6

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How many debates have we been in love for somebody to do that and the wheels just fall off their position sounded fine in their

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Opening statement, but then that cross -examination part doesn't work too well Same thing and looking like it's someone like Ignatius, you know, you can grab us a quote here quote there but it's listening to all that he had to say that allows you to understand and Very clearly in writing the

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Smyrnians. He lays out a very orthodox very non Islamic Non Hebrew Israelites, I'll throw them in there for the fun of it

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Understanding it's an orthodox understanding. The church is made up of Jews and Gentiles There is no race.

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There is nothing like that and it's all based upon his passion. That is his specific Work upon the cross his resurrection.

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Everything is there in Verse 6. I'm not sure we call it verse or anything like that Section 6

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Let no man be deceived even the heavenly beings and the glory of the angels and the rulers invisible and visible if They believe not in the blood of Christ who is

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God judgment awaiteth them also Now that's put in brackets so I do not have my

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I'm traveling and so what I normally would have done would have been to check my five or six volume

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Apostolic Fathers set to look at the textual data on the phrase who is God Wasn't able to do that while traveling

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So I just mentioned that in passing I do wonder if there's a textual issue there.

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If not, there's another reference reference there Also to the

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Smyrnians he said for he suffered all these things for our sakes that we might be saved and he suffered truly as Also, he raised himself

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Truly Not a certain unbelievers say that he suffered in semblance being themselves mere semblance.

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Now, this is Really important and I'm seeing that this is taking up a lot of time

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Rich are you available to go jumbo today? Let me let me know the Facebook message if we can go to I really

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Okay. I got a thumbs up on my phone. So I I Facebook gives me a thing and then this other program is the thing and they sit on top of each other and I can't read

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Either one. It's brilliant But it eventually fades away and I can see it. Good.

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I don't want to I don't want to rush this and again, I know I I'm sorry for those of you who

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Wish that we would cover things a little less in depth than we do but I've taught church history a lot.

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And so you just have to survive with it But to be honest with you You also need to deal with these things at this level to be able to respond the abuse of these things whether it be by Muslims or Unitarians or Hebrew Israelites or Mormons or whatever and to me,

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I don't know about the rest of you but to hear someone Who's going to his death?

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Professing the same faith I profess today if that doesn't That doesn't get you going if that doesn't make you go

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Wow It looks like Christ has been building his church for for 1900 years

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Yeah, yeah That's right. I mean think about he's speaking a different language Dressing a little different different culture on the other side of the world and yet what?

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Unites us today is the same thing that he is talking about to the churches as he's going to his death 1900 years ago

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Pretty amazing stuff so what he's talking about here is as Also, he raised himself truly not as certain unbelievers say

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But he suffered in semblance being themselves mere symbols. He's talking about the dosettos So so there is already as we see in the

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New Testament a Gnostic movement We can call it proto Gnostic if you want. There is development in Gnostic belief over time, but there was obviously a

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Conflict going on at this time as it was in the New Testament with the dosetics who denied the true physical incarnation of Jesus Christ and So he emphasizes the reality of his physical passion his giving of himself

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Over against those that taught that that Jesus only seemed to have a physical body

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That's what the kind means in Greek is to seem so he seemed to have a physical body This is this would be one of the greatest elements of the battle of the early church for quite some time

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And it was in in this day as well I Keep taking my glasses off because all right, there we go

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God the DDD In trolley ins nine, he also confesses believe that the father raised

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Christ from the dead So just like the New Testament where all three persons are involved here for Ignatius He can at one point refer to the son's role the father's role

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Again, just like the New Testament and just like Ignatius ain't a Muslim That's not how a

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Muslim speaks, but it is how a Christian speaks so You know again certain people out at speakers corner

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May think themselves highly wise, but they're not dealing with the text in a meaningful fashion And I don't even know if you can deal with the text in meaningful fashion staying at speakers corner the way people interrupt others

40:01

But here's where we're trying to do so in writing to polycarp

40:08

Ignatius says await him that is above every season the eternal the invisible who became visible for our sake the

40:15

Impalpable the impassable who suffered for our sake who endured in all ways for our sake now again

40:23

Clearly Ignatius is not going. Hey, you know, I've come up with a new doctrine No, he's writing to his fellow bishop polycarp.

40:31

And and when you write to someone like this you you make reference to commonly held belief commonly held faith and That's what he's doing and So what do we have we have the eternal?

40:44

The invisible who became visible for our sake the impalpable the impassable who suffered for our sake again

40:49

You've got the two natures thing going on Just as Paul can talk about they crucified the

40:55

Lord of Glory Well, how can you crucify the Lord of Glory? Well because the Lord of Glory became flesh two natures one person here right at the beginning of the church, it's not that it's not the result of of Evolution over time and you can look you can find all sorts of historians

41:16

It will say it is but they won't be walking through Ignatius while they're doing That's the difference.

41:23

That's what must be kept in mind Now back to his letter to the

41:30

Ephesians Incredible incredible stuff here when

41:36

I went through Ephesians before I was just looking at the uses of the OS of God but in my opinion

41:44

Not only is this one the most beautiful Sentences in patristic literature, but it's just astounding the depth of The Christological the mature

41:59

Christological understanding that this next section. I'm going to read gives us

42:05

Primitively In the Without opportunity of development of doctrine or anything like that.

42:12

Listen to this from his letter to the Ephesians verse 7 there is only one physician of flesh and of spirit generate and Ingenerate God in man true life in death son of Mary and son of God First passable and then impassable

42:35

Jesus Christ our Lord, you know,

42:41

I hate to say it but I think a large portion of Bible school and seminary graduates would have a hard time if challenged

42:58

To come up with a crystal a pithy Christological statement that would even hold a candle to that single sentence

43:07

That Ignatius wrote to the church at Ephesus on his way to his martyrdom 1908 years ago might have been 107.

43:18

We're not we don't know the exact date But I mean, that's just incredible you you want anyone who sits around says well, you know

43:26

Sometime after an iceo they started having to deal with You know is

43:31

Jesus God if he's God and what's the God man and that this is developed over time Go back and read

43:37

Ignatius not below. Don't get me get me wrong. You can go listen to the church history series I'm doing PR BC right now already laid some of this out.

43:45

We'll lay more of it up Not everything in the early church is of the same quality as this

43:53

But very plainly Ignatius has had in -depth accurate orthodox advanced teaching in regards to Who the father is who the son is the relationship of the divine the human in Christ?

44:11

very you can't you can't you can't ignore the text and That's why that's why so often these arguments take place out in street corners on as a text isn't being cited

44:22

Well people can get away with it and you can quote your scholar and somebody quotes their scholar That's what makes me weird.

44:28

Is it I go let's let's let's look at what was actually said Maybe that would that would help then in Ephesians 9 check this out

44:37

For as much as you are stones of a temple which repaired beforehand for a building of God the

44:42

Father being hoisted up the heights of the engine of Jesus Christ, which is the cross and using for a rope the

44:50

Holy Spirit Now think about that. What is that the Trinitarian passage just as you have in well interestingly enough

44:59

Ephesians chapter 5 You have a number of Trinitarian passages in Paul's letter to the

45:05

Ephesians So it's not overly surprising or shocking that you would have Trinitarian passages when

45:10

Ignatius is writing the very same church because he plainly I think would have been familiar with the Letter that was sent to the church at Ephesus.

45:17

It was a circular letter passed around through the Lycus River Valley So it probably was fairly well -known

45:22

But listen to that you are stones of a temple which were prepared beforehand for a building of God the

45:29

Father Being hoisted up the heights the engine of Jesus Christ, which is the cross

45:34

I remind Every Muslim that would try to play with Ignatius if you're gonna be honest

45:41

You better say by the way, he was wrong about the cross We reject what he says about the cross, you know, just just be honest about it

45:49

Which is the cross and using for a rope the Holy Spirit Father Son Holy Spirit Ephesians chapter 9.

45:59

It's right there. Is it a creed? No but if what BB Warfield says and I have said all along is true.

46:09

You wouldn't expect it to be These are experiential Trinitarians This is the language that naturally flows from those who experience the doctrines of Trinity And there it's you know

46:24

Compare that with Matthew 20 19 for a sustenance 1 2 3 5 2nd

46:29

Thessalonians 2 13 1st Corinthians 2 2 5 6 11 12 4 3 6 2nd Corinthians 1 21 22 13 14

46:36

Romans 8 26 27 14 17 13 15 16 15 30 Colossians 1 6 30

46:42

Ephesians 2 18 3 16 through 17 and 4 4 3 6 for just a few of the allusions to the

46:49

Trinity found in Paul's epistles and then one there in Matthew and so you have

46:58

Incredibly high Statements being made by Ignatius and the reality is to my

47:07

Muslim Friends who are trying to argue that Ignatius is not supportive of our belief

47:17

Will you want us to come out and say this man Was not a Muslim He believed in the cross.

47:24

He believed in the Atonement. He believed Jesus was the Son of God He believed Jesus was virgin -born like you do

47:32

But he believed Jesus had two natures divine and human and he believed Jesus was God Now you may want to argue.

47:40

Yeah, but there's not enough there. I mean, you know, he says He says

47:47

He talks about the the Trinitarian passage and the three persons that but that's just not enough for me

47:54

Well, what would be enough for you? I Honestly don't think anything would be

48:01

If you can look at 1st Corinthians chapter 8 and not see that Paul is rewriting the

48:07

Shema If you can if you can quote Matthew 15 while ignoring Matthew 28,

48:12

I Would suggest to you that there is no evidence that you actually would accept

48:18

Because you have an overriding presuppositional commitment to the understanding of the author of the

48:25

Quran and the author of the Quran did not understand what the

48:31

New Testament contains and so you have a

48:38

You have a presupposition and You are living in light of it you're living consistent light of it and therefore consistently

48:45

Abusing the historical evidence as a result and that's a bit of a problem now

48:53

If you if you want illustration It's funny if you want illustration of It it seems like if you if you try to counsel peace

49:14

If you try to say, you know Let's have this conversation and the bonds of peace.

49:21

There's there's differing views here These are important issues, but you know, let's let's try to do this truthfully and so I'm discovering that if you try to do that you will end up getting shot at by both sides

49:36

It's just it's just the way things are today. There's there's just no way around it and I've now seen two articles

49:47

You know that a few weeks ago. I mentioned the Trinitarian controversy that is going on in the world today and In the

49:57

Western English -speaking world, especially primarily in the United States, though. There's a few folks in England involved as well

50:03

And I said, I'm not I'm not going to do a presentation on this yet. There's a Bunch of stuff to read

50:10

I want to be very careful but what I said was could we have this conversation without the

50:20

Automatic utilization of terms like heretic going to hell false teacher and all the other things one of the main reasons is this is a it's a difficult subject to talk about the relationship of father son and spirit and Because we're talking about the highest revelation of God's being we're talking about using language in a way that we don't use

50:44

Language every single day where if the relationship between father son spirit is absolutely unique Then our language which is based upon Analogy and likening things if that relationship is absolutely unique we don't have any way to liken it to something else without that automatically becoming problematic and so I Sort of helped to explain

51:11

I tried to explain a few of the issues Are we talking about an eternal functional submission of the son to the father

51:21

What is the nature of the claim being made who's making the claim? Is it possible that these folks are

51:31

Being influenced by other issues specifically the egalitarian A complimentary a complementarian controversy in regards to the role of women in the church and and And one of the things that I did say was

51:49

I'm a little concerned by the tone Of even people on my own side.

51:56

I I do have a side here I do not believe in EFS. I I took the time to read some from Raymond in regards to the

52:07

Sun being out off a us I have some serious problems With what seems to me to be an incipient ontological subordination ism of the

52:20

Sun and the spirit to the father that is found in some of this material from Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem and things like that, but My my concern was that I don't know how far we're gonna get in discussing this if our opening statement is accompanied by blowtorches or by the call for the execution of the other side and I Thought that was a fair thing to say.

52:47

I've gotten zero positive comments on that universally negative from both sides, but primarily from my own interesting enough, so I Think some people think

53:00

I'm just getting soft my old age from my perspective As I said, I'm thankful that people are now talking about something that I've been talking about for a long time and that is the necessity of thinking about the relationship of father son spirit remember back when and When Alpha Omega was sort of this lone little teeny group over in the corner waving a flag going.

53:21

Hey, um There's some oneness Pentecostals modalists out there that are you know

53:28

Sort of making inroads through music and stuff like that, and they don't believe

53:34

You know, I debated Robert Sabin back. What was that 90? 1999 and It wasn't cool to do that kind of stuff back then, you know and so we

53:48

So part of me goes well at least people are talking about this I suppose that's good people be reading some systematic theologies and thinking some stuff through I suppose that's a good thing

53:59

But the problem is if you do if you do that from a perspective of Anger emotion

54:11

You know what happens when you've got the one side going it's the other side and we can't compromise and blah blah blah when you've got when you got the all the emotions going

54:23

You've got the fever up. That doesn't really lead to the best to Trinitarian Concentration thinking thought processing and so on and so forth.

54:36

And so for me It's not well, let's just all be very calm and all the rest of that stuff

54:43

It's the subject deserves our best and our best is not going to come when we are

54:51

Engaging the subject from this perspective. It's it's that's not how it's gonna work.

54:56

And so I take heat for that and I guess that's just my job

55:04

Now I saw some quotes And I took the time to I had not read the book and I suppose

55:12

I should have kept up with all this stuff, but there's only so many things you can do it a day and But I I Saw the quotes that were posted

55:26

Today From father son Holy Spirit relationships roles and relevance by dr.

55:33

Bruce where I Sort of wish this conversation this debate had

55:41

Blown up a year ago We might have been able to have some rather interesting conversations at g3 last year or maybe wouldn't have had g3 less

55:50

I don't know. What would have happened there? there is a section in dr.

55:58

Where's book that look I Like I said,

56:04

I took time to get the book and to read through this section and The collection of quotes really isn't a contextual

56:16

This discussion on Dr. Where's part is to me problematic now,

56:24

I Know at the same time the doctor where strongly emphasizes his belief that this is not a compromising subordination ism that does not lead to Aryan ism or any

56:41

I get that I hear it. I heard him say all sorts of Absolutely theologically true things

56:52

At g3 last year I did But well,

56:57

I'm not to read you is troubling me it really is it is troubling now Do I think there needs to be a meaningful conversation of these things these things?

57:07

Yes Am I giving up that that could ever happen? No, I think I think it can but I'll be perfectly honest with you.

57:16

I Think dr. Where would be a little bit more likely to hear our concerns if We do not have a baseball bat in our hands

57:27

Behind our head ready to strike You know if maybe there would be you know, this bond of love type stuff maybe possibly

57:38

Here's some of the things he said God the Father receives the ultimate and supreme glory

57:45

For the Father sent the Son to accomplish redemption his humiliation The Father exalted the Son to his place over all creation all these things the

57:52

Father alone stands supreme overall Including supreme over his very Son all praise the

57:58

Son ultimately and rightly redounds the glory of the Father It is the Father then who is supreme in the

58:03

Godhead in the trying relationships of Father Son Holy Spirit and supreme over all of the Very creation over which the

58:10

Son reigns as its Lord The Father is supreme over all and in particular He is supreme within the

58:15

Godhead as the highest in authority and the one deserving of ultimate praise Though the Father is supreme

58:21

He often provides and works through his Son and Spirit to accomplish his work and fulfill as well I'm amazed when

58:26

I consider here the humility of the Father for though This father is supreme though He has in the

58:31

Trinitarian order the place of highest authority the place of highest honor Yet he chooses to do his work in many cases through the

58:38

Son and through the Spirit rather than unilaterally in Many ways what we see here of the

58:43

Father choosing not to work unilaterally But to accomplish his work through the Son or through the

58:48

Spirit extends into his relationship to us This is where I think he becomes very problematic

58:53

Does God need us to do his work? Does God need us to help others grow in Christ? Does God need us to proclaim the gospel so that others hear the good news and are saved the answer is an emphatic?

59:03

No, he doesn't need any of us do any of this being the omnipotent and sovereign ruler over all He would merely have to speak and whatever he will would be done

59:11

No, the humbling fact is that God doesn't need any of those whom he calls into his service now a

59:20

Really inappropriate parallel has just been drawn there in my opinion Because what has been what has been drawn as a parallel is

59:29

Us being used as the instruments of God as the ones who proclaim the gospel so on so forth with the

59:35

Son and the Spirit and He goes on to say it is not as though the father is unable to work

59:42

Unilaterally, but rather he chooses to involve the Son and the Spirit now that to me is

59:48

That's over the line That's just to me. That's over the line Jesus says in John chapter 5 the

59:57

Son does nothing of himself. So evidently from dr. Weir's perspective The father can act unilaterally or separate from the

01:00:06

Son the Spirit and I go no And yet not going there I Don't see

01:00:13

I can I can pretty much guarantee a Calvin would ever have gone there I think Calvin would have found this to be extremely problematic as well

01:00:21

Certainly Robert Raymond would have But This is where our side is saying guys

01:00:31

We can't see how you can avoid an ontological Disruption the

01:00:37

Godhead here and I'm I'm saying dr.

01:00:44

Weir says dr. Grudem says No ontological subordination, but we are saying

01:00:50

Appreciate that you say that However, given what you're saying and how you're saying it

01:00:57

How can you avoid it? You may say I'm not embracing that but How do you avoid coming to that conclusion because I can guarantee you that certain unscrupulous or even

01:01:15

Backtrack that no, I'm using I know the unscrupulous people will use anything I can see how a fair -minded

01:01:25

Accuracy -seeking truth -seeking Muslim Would utilize these citations?

01:01:32

to ask honest questions of The coherency of our assertion of the unity of the

01:01:40

Godhead ontologically speaking I Can see how they would do that And I would just like to ask

01:01:47

Dr. Weir and dr. Grudem Have you ever dialogue? with Non -offensive

01:01:59

Non just repeat what I heard from an Akhmed didot video type Muslims who who really seriously

01:02:05

Think these things through and are actually willing to hear the answer I know there are certain Muslims that make these arguments.

01:02:11

I saw some of that video I was talking about But all they've done is they've just put together little arguments They're not the one guy, especially that I saw in that speakers corner

01:02:20

I run into at Leicester Square in London and I've tried to reason with him. There is no hearing key

01:02:26

It doesn't matter how many times you correct something. He says it's 30 seconds later He's just back to the same argument again, which is why eventually

01:02:33

I just stopped talking to him But what about the what about the few?

01:02:40

Are the few but the few Muslims? Who really want to understand what we're saying and they read this and they go this

01:02:48

This sounds how can you talk about Jesus as fully God when you're likening him to us?

01:02:56

As instruments in the father's hands accomplishing things so on and so forth It doesn't sound like you really believe in the full deity of Christ.

01:03:04

It sounds like these are lesser beings and You can say no he's not but now you got to flesh that out now you've got to explain that and That's one of the reasons why

01:03:16

I'm so concerned about emphasizing the use of autophagos of All three persons of the

01:03:25

Trinity and Having an understanding of generation that does not deny that There are some understandings of eternal generation to deny that there's others that do not

01:03:37

And I think I think the reform folks. I think Calvin sort of showed the way here in in Recognizing that again, just because it became post -Nicene

01:03:51

Orthodoxy in the late -4th early 5th century You know if you actually seriously believe in solo scriptura you need to Look at those things and ask the question.

01:04:03

Is it really consistent biblically speaking? So Especially that last line. Let me read again. It is not as though the father is unable to work unilaterally

01:04:11

But rather he chooses to involve the son the spirit It sounds like if you put that together with John 5 the son does not choose

01:04:19

To work in cooperation with the father the spirit, but he has to So the father chooses but the son by nature by eternal functional subordination

01:04:35

Does that is that really what? What's going on there? That's that would be one of the questions

01:04:41

I would have so there's a few more thoughts on the subject The way things have been going for a while,

01:04:47

I'll probably just take heat for that but That's fine If it's useful to the people in the audience in helping to understand why we're having this conversation

01:04:57

Maybe shed a little light on it Then I'll I'll take the nasty grams as they come by the way

01:05:04

I mentioned really quickly and I want to get to this last thing because I see the clock and I realize you run out of time and I need to do dinner anyways, but I I saw the culturally

01:05:15

Islamic dress stuff from Bill O 'Reilly and Barack Obama and You know, my understanding is it was an

01:05:24

Islamic wedding and Someone's trying to say well, it's just cultural dress doesn't do it this long

01:05:31

Put it in context put all the probably pieces together I've said for a long long time Barack Obama was a

01:05:36

Muslim not is a Muslim There is no question going to a madrasa in Indonesia Every child in a madrasa in Indonesia says the

01:05:45

Shahada and If someone were to actually ask Barack Obama, have you ever said like Ilaha illallah by Muhammad?

01:05:53

Allah. He would say well, of course I did There's no question about so from a historically

01:06:01

Orthodox, especially Sunni perspective Since he does not observe any

01:06:06

Islamic beliefs calls himself a Christian He is a murtad he is an apostate and the historical historically consistent

01:06:19

Penalty for being an apostate in Islam is death I Do not believe

01:06:26

Barack Obama is a Christian by any stretch of the imagination His actions his beliefs his defense of partial birth abortion

01:06:33

His statements about the Bible and Revelation make it very clear that that he is a leftist. He is a secularist.

01:06:40

He's He's you know Remember his pastor You know went to a church with black liberation theology and all of its wild crazy craziness that comes with it and So, you know, there's you know, it's big talk.

01:06:57

I see he's a Muslim No, he's not but he was and he clearly has a sympathy culturally

01:07:05

Toward Islam that then I think is fed into by his rather communist background that makes made him go on the apology tour as soon as he was elected president and So I think that's what's what's behind a lot of this stuff that you see going on there, okay so now here's that here's the here's gonna be the

01:07:26

The tricky part I'm gonna go ahead and play this.

01:07:31

I'm gonna hope it's gonna I think I'm gonna have to turn this up for this to work But I'm just gonna play a brief portion of The polemics report from he who judges from afar

01:07:49

Just just just a brief section. It's three minutes and 25 Seconds in To this this was only texted to me a couple hours ago.

01:08:01

I did not have the opportunity. I download it found the quote and Maybe I'll listen to all of it later on.

01:08:09

Maybe I won't I don't know. I'm getting sort of sick and tired of it you've heard me honest with you, but I might have time.

01:08:16

I've got a lot of driving to do over the next couple of weeks So going from here to Santa Fe Santa Fe Salt Lake Salt Lake back here here home

01:08:23

So I could probably fit it in there in some place though I have a whole lot more interesting stuff to be listening to but we'll find out anyway here is from the polemics report at Three minutes and 25 seconds in I'm just gonna play a brief section here.

01:08:39

Hopefully it will be Audible to everyone which is how I organized the podcast.

01:08:44

I was gonna read them to you from people saying listen JD I'm with you a hundred percent. I can't believe that For some reason people are finding a

01:08:55

Tattoo booze fundraiser in the video chiefly put out by Marcus Pittman as being appropriate.

01:09:01

Okay to catch that a

01:09:08

Tattoo booze fundraiser. Here's what is really really really concerning me about this situation

01:09:20

Last week I addressed Pastor Hall directly and I said look

01:09:29

You are operating on the basis of false information Sadly I have had to come to the conclusion that he's in in collusion with the

01:09:39

Christian News on this because Ironically the one person quoted in the

01:09:46

Christian News article To sort of give the other side

01:09:51

Well other side they didn't bother actually contacting Jeff Durbin though as Jeff today

01:09:59

Published all of the conversation between himself and mr. McAvage I just I just direct you to that and you can see how transparent

01:10:09

Jeff was and you can see why we have said from the beginning that there was a Bias and a prejudice involved in the original article which there was obviously the title itself was just inexcusable

01:10:21

Um, but I addressed JD and I corrected that exact error There is a conflation of something at reformcom

01:10:34

Which again was a fundraiser but had nothing to do with what happened a few weeks later there is a conflation of two things to create a

01:10:43

False impression. This is documented. This is not this is not debatable This is not an argument. Pastor Hall cannot argue this because he is ignorant.

01:10:51

He is at afar he is basing his comments upon an article from people who also are

01:10:58

Ignorant and the people that were there have spoken and spoken clearly to the issue

01:11:04

And so they don't care about that evidently and it's sad to me. I think he was given an opportunity pastor

01:11:11

I'll had an opportunity to once again Dial back the rhetoric and say given what

01:11:17

I understood here were my concerns if The reality was different You know then

01:11:26

Okay, you know, but but my concerns remain valid in other contexts

01:11:32

And I like I said, I agree with a lot of the things that he said Just the fact that it had nothing to do with the

01:11:37

Paula Ghia Jeff Durbin what happened that evening, etc, etc Instead of Dialing it back and doing the gracious thing pastor

01:11:47

Hall has decided to do what pretty much all of pastor Hall's critics did

01:11:52

When they falsely accused him from afar in regards to the camera situation so that's what makes this that's just breaks my heart about this is

01:12:03

I rightly defended JD when people from afar

01:12:10

Went on partial information didn't know the background didn't know the context didn't know the motivations and Ravaged the man and he was ravaged

01:12:24

Evidently what breaks my heart is he's decided that you know what if people can do that to me I can do it to others and that's what

01:12:32

I'm gonna do. And that's what he's doing and I can't do that That's that's not a possibility for me

01:12:41

It shouldn't be a possibility for anybody be perfectly honest with you, but it is sort of how our world works today and so I'm not gonna repeat everything that I said on the last dividing line

01:12:55

Jeff Durbin has has written an article. He's posted material Other people have posted a few things as well

01:13:04

I will just simply repeat this If I have to be associated with someone

01:13:12

I want to be associated with men and women Who maybe look down upon by others who wrap their righteous robes around themselves?

01:13:25

but who are Sold out to the Lord Seeking to serve him willing to sacrifice

01:13:35

Of willing to uproot their families in service to others I'd rather be associated with them than with all the high -browed

01:13:45

High -nosed I've got everything right? I am the mature Christian Pharisees in the world and To be honest with you

01:13:58

Another thing that truly bothers me about this whole situation is That we do have vitally important issues to be concerned about to be focused upon 2017 is going to be a time where there's gonna be much discussion of justification because the 500th anniversary of the

01:14:16

Reformation and I believe in all probability a major Statement from Pope Frankie that is going to create a fundamental schism and what was once called

01:14:28

Evangelicalism the centrality of justification the centrality that the constant attacks that I'm seeing on on penal substitution

01:14:39

These are are vitally important issues and you know what

01:14:45

Jeff Durbin stands right by me on all of those things and so to attack based upon False information based upon partial information based to to attack on the very same basis as Pastor Hall himself was attacked upon and to create these kinds of divisions

01:15:11

Rank immaturity and It really ends up Diminishing the focus that people have upon the important things the real things the real issues

01:15:22

That we are going to have to be dealing with Because I do believe that The next number of years is going to bring tremendous pressure upon believing

01:15:35

Christians tremendous pressure Because our freedoms are going to be disappearing and not all that slowly

01:15:44

I don't know how long we are going to be able to even have this kind of internet communication

01:15:53

And If there are going to be divisions They better be divisions between us that are on the real issues that matter not on the

01:16:02

Adi Afro Not on the issues of taste or even tone they need to be on the things that really really matter and so many people today are willing to overlook the firm confession of faith on the part of people

01:16:20

Because well, you don't look like me you don't necessarily act or dress like me

01:16:26

You don't dot your I's and cross your T's the exact way that I do and therefore

01:16:33

I am going to ignore your profession We can't go there we just It's not the time to be doing it.

01:16:43

It's not the time to be doing it. And so It's it's heartbreaking to see pastor from pastor

01:16:51

Hall double down on this Meaningless thing.

01:16:57

I'm not saying his concerns. I said last time I said there's so many things I agree with you on Your application in this context is

01:17:07

Slanderous. It's wrong. You missed it and you see don't you realize that by missing it?

01:17:13

You're actually diminishing the force of your criticism of the real issues

01:17:20

I realize there are people who think that Calvinism is cool.

01:17:25

As long as you do this and do that Calvinism will never be cool. I get that you're right about that, but you're wrong about the application

01:17:33

And so you're destroying your own point. You're destroying your own purpose in being just absolutely bullheaded like you always are

01:17:45

And not being willing to say, you know I think I think there's some in JD's mind as something goes back to what happened with the debate with Joel McDermott Because the poly gear was involved with that and I I'm I just I how else can you explain this this bias?

01:18:01

This unwillingness to to be corrected. So just a few words on that and and we'll believe it there

01:18:08

So like I said earlier in the program, I don't have the dates yet as soon as they are set up We'll let you know but As far as I know,

01:18:18

I'm not actually gonna be involved But there will be hopefully two dividing lines that we'll be doing while I'm away with vocab alone and guests on the history and inside workings of the black

01:18:36

Hebrew Israelite movement and And Start putting this together with the fact that I'm going to be

01:18:45

Doing a whole presentation on Deuteronomy 28 and the being sold taken away to Egypt and ships passage and things like that Spoken my good friend

01:18:57

Michael Brown There's obviously great light that he can shed on some of these issues as well.

01:19:03

We could put together fairly quickly a Pretty wide body of Information that has never been concentrated in one area before There are people who know a whole lot much much much more than I'll ever know about this movement

01:19:20

They still haven't had the audience that we have and so if we put it all together It could be really a blessing to a lot of folks

01:19:27

But there is going to be a tremendous amount of pushback. And so your prayers are appreciated. Yeah, you know, it's it's

01:19:36

It's so very strange to be in a situation where you've got dozens of videos coming out calling you every

01:19:46

Profane name under the planet calling for your death and your destruction and everything else Experiencing horrific racism on one side and then you find yourself spending time defending brothers against other brothers on just Really inane issues.

01:20:04

It's discouraging. I'll be honest. It's discouraging but We're called to the time that God calls us to minister in and so you do what you have to do

01:20:13

So want to address those things be thinking about those upcoming programs. We'll let you know

01:20:20

When we're gonna be able to do programs I can guarantee you something it It will not be on the pretty much not at the regular times

01:20:29

We're only gonna be able to fit him in when we can fit him in I'm traveling vocab has his schedule, etc, etc

01:20:35

So you're gonna have to watch on Twitter You have to watch on Facebook and you have to watch on the blog and we will try to put announcements in each of those places and just do the best that we can along those lines, so Appreciate your listening to the dividing line today.

01:20:50

I'm gonna wrap it up a little bit earlier than the jumbo Because I've got some stuff going on this evening and to be very honest with you.

01:20:57

I'm home. So I Appreciate you're taking the time to listen today. Thank you rich for making things work back there and Certainly, we'll be joining with you again before I get back to the studio.