The Coming SBC Split

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That wasn’t the only topic we covered today, as we looked at a number of items, but in general we looked at the reaction that erupted to a simple tweet from Dr. Josh Buice, a reaction that came from staff or students at the three largest Southern Baptist seminaries. We also looked at what wokeness does to one’s theology from a few sources as well. Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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Wow, well, I didn't hear any music. Nope Nope yeah, so rich has been playing with stuff and Changing stuff around and stuff like that.
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And so now you can't hear anything and you don't know what's going on It's just sort of like I'll just start talking.
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Okay. Thanks. Appreciate that There was there was nothing there was just like, all right,
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I'm just listening to the normal sounds. Hey, thanks for joining us today Not the way to start things, but that's okay
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We hope it'll get better from here and and not and not worse too much too much new technologies
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Not a not a not a good thing at all, man. We've got so much to look at here.
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I Not even sure where to start with all this stuff. I have so many different Threads to be following that trying to put all together is a bit of a is a bit of a challenge to balance with you but one of the reasons that we
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Wanted to do something today The things that we're seeing happening in our world is one thing
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The obvious cooperation of corporate America with the government to establish a leftist totalitarian mindset
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Utilizing kovat 19 Panic The continued just constantly stoking that panic and things like that.
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That's one thing to see and It's so obvious As to what's what's happening the pressure.
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It's being brought to bear upon individuals You're not allowed to have another view that no other views are allowed
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Then that which corporate America is now cramming down our throats doesn't matter who they offend They don't they don't care.
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They've decided to go all out with all this stuff, but we're seeing that coming into the church and We've seen it we talked last week about Jamar Tisby hooking up with Even Kendi and all that kind of stuff that was going on there now
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Over the weekend Resurrection Sunday weekend, it's one thing when you have someone like the ostensible senator from Georgia Who of course is associated with Union Theological Seminary?
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So, you know, it's the Walker Seminary and People just can't wrap their minds yet around the idea that you've got people who are reverend with a masters of divinity, etc, etc
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That simply have no concept of the gospel or actually reject the gospel directly fully without question as You have with the
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Reverend Warnock and his comments about the resurrection of Christ, which of course he has since pulled but once you post it it's been posted
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We have stuff like that where you have to just be straightforward I mean when you're saying the resurrection
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Easter transcends resurrection and by serving others You can save yourself and stuff like this that has to be you have to go.
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No, that's that's not the message there is an absolutely exclusivistic element
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To the resurrection. I mean How could the resurrection be anything? That's why it's offensive by the way is that it's not inclusivistic it is exclusivity
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Writ large why? Because if God in his son enters into human flesh gives his life rises from the dead and God says
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Here is the way Can we then sit there and go You know,
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I appreciate that but I think there needs to be multiple ways You know that that way seems a little too narrow for me
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You know, it involves my repentance of sin it involves, you know an acknowledgment of of my own evil and and things like that and I just I Don't know.
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That's that's not that's not that's I want something else That is absurdity if God would do all that he did in Christ and it's obvious this is the way that he has provided for peace with him and Mankind is
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Proves himself to be utterly completely foolish just foolish To demand of God other ways.
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Thank you, but I'd rather do it my own way That is what is offensive to the world
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Once you once you allow Intersectionality to have its full effect
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You are left with the autonomous creature Demanding that the rest of the universe including the
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Creator honor them for who they are and therefore the idea of my bowing to God's will or God's way
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What what kind of backwards foolishness is that right? So it there are certain aspects that even over the
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Resurrection Sunday weekend, you've got to take a look at that and go. Yeah. Well, there's there's the obvious realization of where someone like that is coming from and What that means in the fact that he represents that whole
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Union James Cone black liberation theology movement and if you ignored
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What Martin Luther King said about the resurrection and supernatural issues 60 years ago, then you're gonna ignore
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Warnock now and you have gutted Christianity without a resurrection without supernaturalism
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Though by the way, even King couldn't imagine where these folks have gone obviously
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Wasn't nearly as far on the limb as they are. But that's the nature of liberalism
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But what's fascinating is what is going on within the
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Southern Baptist Convention we have in a matter of weeks a major event taking place in The Gathering of Southern Baptists now we can pray for Sanity to reign we can pray for Historical Christian Orthodoxy to win out
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But I'll be perfectly honest with you in looking at social media and looking at The the people who are running for the presidency and you really do have a spectrum that is that is, you know, one side represents the right one side represents the left and You've got one sort of in the middle trying to hold everybody together
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It's gonna be Very very interesting to see what happens but who's on The extremes is already very very very clear.
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Very well known What happened over the weekend is a well -known
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Southern Baptist. Dr. Josh Bice who of course years ago was the
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Motivator behind the rise of the g3 conference the g3 ministries
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For the first number of years the conference was at Praise Me Old Baptist Church and then it outgrew the size of the facility there and Has taken on a you know existence unto itself and And Josh has preached on the subjects of social justice
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He was Sitting right there in the room was one of the primary people bringing together together with Michael Fallon myself and Vody Balcombe and John MacArthur and and Other people that were there in you know,
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Tom Buck. We're all sitting there in the in the room in the Dallas In the meeting that eventually led to the statement on social justice in the gospel and things like that and so There is a history
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To dr. Bice's words and comments it would be like someone reading my any of my books and Trying to divorce them from the context of Reform Theology You're gonna end up misinterpreting what
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I'm saying it is perfectly fair in Listening to my words or reading my published words to assume a
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Reformed context and Intent in what it is.
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I'm saying I've defended reformed theology and debate for decades I Guess yeah, this this year does mark.
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I wonder when need what what what day was the George Bryson debate? because that was 2001 and So I'd be interested in knowing what the day is because I'd like to if we do a dividing line that day 20 years ago today
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I was at The George Bryson debate so been doing this for a long long time and so it's perfectly it's necessary in examining any statements that I would make
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To keep them in the context of my overall teaching preaching publishing So on so especially when you've written books
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Josh has written books. I've written books you've you've He's spoken at every one of the conferences obviously, so there's hours and hours and hours
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That's the context in which you would want to interpret something that he would have to say now.
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It's known Which side of the Southern Baptist divide? Dr. Bice stands on and it's interesting to me by the way that every all the sides
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This is but I'm not a Southern Baptist anymore. I was for many many years, but I Left the
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Southern Baptist Church in 1989 and joined a reformed
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Baptist Church I still lived in the Southern Baptist world while teaching for a
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Southern Baptist institution all the way up into well, whenever it was that dr.
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Patterson got me fired in but sometime late 2000s early 2010s.
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I forget what exactly was I had to look it up as to when that was but so I still had the connections there and I Know how inerrancy works as a buzzword amongst
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Southern Baptists, I Knew many a person in my years especially as teaching that I could tell as A person teaching in that context that this person does not believe in any meaningful definition
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What? April 2nd
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Really? Missed it by that much missed it by that much
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So well, this is the first program we've done. It's closest to that one. So hey We're going with it 22 decades ago
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For that debate with George Bryson Wow That's um, I don't have anything from that queued up but I can tell you one thing the
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Closing statement that I gave a lot of people have mentioned I had somebody mentioned that to me within the past three weeks
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We get a lot of visitors at apology, but a lot of visitors on Sunday and somebody mentioned
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To me the closing statement from that debate and so look it up James White George Bryson and And Okay, remind me to jump back into the
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Southern Baptist conversation at inerrancy, okay, because I'll forget this but This was not at a
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Calvary Chapel Church. It was that that was a vineyard church as I recall Yeah.
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Well, yeah, right. It was rented What? Radio station rented it.
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Okay but we were so we were at a Someplace else and some of their people showed up too.
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They they they watched it was well attended and Well moderated it was set up well it it did a it was it did what it was supposed to do and I think
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Personally, it was rather one -sided. I Think most everyone who's watched it came to conclusion.
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That was one side. I I don't believe I've ever encountered anyone Who has said to me
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I I think you lost that debate I've not had anyone say that at all.
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And most people are so like So it did what it was supposed to do and It was it was done fairly the thing that I remember was that after the debate
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I forget where it was because it's a large place and I had never been to it before I was wandering around someplace looking for maybe
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I was looking for a restroom. Maybe I was looking for somebody I don't I don't remember what it was had a lot of friends that it came that night and I I walked around like a curtain type thing or something and I encountered
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George Bryson and his wife and They really couldn't see me as I was walking up to pass them
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But she was just letting him have it For how badly it had gone and how he had let me get away with so much stuff
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And I just I thought to myself You know, even if my wife had actually thought something like that, which she wouldn't have
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She at least would have given me till I got home Simply let me
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I I just always felt really bad for George after that Honestly, and I don't
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I'll be honest with you. I don't know what happened to him. I mean we did We did the the
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Bible answer man thing the read my book debate and Then I I think once the split happened in Calvary Chapel, he just sort of disappeared but for a long time
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George Bryson was the Calvary Chapel go -to guy for anti Calvinism Which tells you a lot about what the level of anti Calvinism in In Calvary Chapel was all about at that time, but yeah 22 decades ago
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We were we were defending these things and so it's perfectly appropriate unless I come out and Say I repudiate everything that I've taught and I'm taking my books out of print and blah blah blah blah blah
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It's perfectly fair to say here's the context in which to interpret What James White says if anyone cares?
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so back to the Southern Baptist when I was a part of that world
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I Knew then that there were many people who signed because you had to sign after the conservative resurgence
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You had to sign to teach in a Southern Baptist school. You had to sign a statement about The Baptist faiths a message and if I recall correctly it specifically made reference to inerrancy and But I believe in inerrancy, whatever whatever else whatever the terminology was.
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I Knew lots of men who signed that that did not have anywhere close to any meaningful historical understanding of what inerrancy meant.
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I Have seen inerrancy Turned into such a straw man. I've seen it
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Turned into a pretzel and and the exact opposite of what it actually believed and what it actually teaches and I've just seen it too often
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So when I see all sides in the current SBC presidential debate
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Talking about inerrancy inerrancy inerrancy. It doesn't mean anything for me because I Been there done that got the t -shirt
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Type of situation you can talk about all you want if you don't believe the script the scriptures are sufficient to define for example the fellowship of the
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Christian faith and what unites Christians together and if you are woke as one of the One of the candidates is about as woke as you can get you don't believe that I don't care what you say
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You do not believe that You can say on the one hand I believe in inerrancy
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But you do not believe the scriptures are sufficient enough to actually define how Christians are to have unity with one another
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What it is that identifies us as Christians. You don't believe it. So It seems to me
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Like it is absolutely inevitable Either is result of this year or at some point
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It may be a slow part in the ways it may be an explosive part in the ways But I see a massive split coming in the
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Southern Baptist Convention and it seems to me that the quote -unquote progressives the woke folks are lining up to try to claim as much of the junk because historically when and I don't know why this is to be honest with you, but historically when
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Conservatives and liberals split the liberals always get all the buildings and all the schools and The conservatives have to go rebuild everything
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That happened. That's how Westminster came into existence you look at you look down through history and That's sort of how it's happened.
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And so it's fascinating to me that a a single
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Statement from dr. Bice Has gotten responses
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From people who are either students or staff at Southern Southeastern and at least one graduate of Southwestern and if you're represent if you've got folks from There they're the big three right now
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Midwesterns in there, but it's not as big Golden Gates now gateway and it's relatively small
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New Orleans Again the the big boys are southern southeastern and southwestern so to have students or faculty or both from the big three going after dr.
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Bice and coordinating their statements is rather interesting to me and Might tell us something
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I Attempted to get some clarification from one of these individuals.
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Dr. Oren Martin from Southern Seminary He responded other people not to me and so I'll look at what he said to others and use that in this but here is here is the tweet
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I'll read it to you That well here Do to do to do
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Of Can I Amongst all these yes,
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I can all right You problem is
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The tweets up in the upper left -hand corner. I don't know if we can zoom in on that enough Again, Rich is is trying to make a
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CNN West as far as all the all the doodads and doody whoppers and and and Little glowing lights and slider thingies and did y 'all know by the way that when the
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Death star Fired on Alderaan. You remember that do you remember?
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Do you think the thing that was a Grass Valley switcher? That is a TV switcher
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Made by Grass Valley. Why do I know this because the large Southern Baptist Church that was part of at that time
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Had a TV ministry and The guys in there as soon as they saw Star Wars going.
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They've got a Grass Valley in the Death Star Cuz that's they didn't build that that was an actual
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Grass Valley switcher the moon And that you know, so actually they're switching from one camera to the other
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Fired the Death Star, but that's what Rich is doing. He's got little thingies out there now with little cute stuff and all that kind of stuff but up in the up in the upper corner here is
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Josh's Josh's great sin
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So as we behold the slain Christ on the cruel cross on this
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Good Friday We must never forget this truth. Jesus was not the victim of injustice Jesus was predestined substitute was the sorry
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Predestined substitute for sinners crushed under the wrath of the Father in order to fulfill. Holy justice Isaiah 53 10 now
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There obviously is the the biblical citation is provided there
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Isaiah 53 10 and I Didn't see too many people unfortunately
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Who took the time to try to contextualize any of of any of this?
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Just so you are Familiar, I mean everyone should be hopefully familiar
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I Still I love accordance, but the verse entry thing Isaiah 53 10, but Yahweh Was pleased to crush him putting him to grief if he would render himself as a guilt offering
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He will see his offspring He will prolong his days and a good pleasure of Yahweh Will prosper in his sand in his hand as a result of the anguish of his soul verse 11
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He will see it and be satisfied by his knowledge the righteous one My servant will justify the many as he will bear their iniquities.
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Now. Let me just point something out in passing There are numerous passages that identify the
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Sun as Yahweh we The last time I preached a g3. This was one of the issues that I brought up out of Isaiah chapter 6
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Was the identification of Jesus as Yahweh in John 1241 but there are also passages of Scripture that identified the father as Yahweh in distinction from the
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Messiah Isaiah 53 is one of them and So in Isaiah 53
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Yahweh was pleased to crush him Who is the him the servant of Yahweh who is the Messiah the anointed one?
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So you have a distinction between the father and the son here Yahweh was pleased to crush him putting him to grief if he would render himself as a guilt offering render himself that takes us back to Philippians chapter 2 the the self -giving he
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Emptied himself. He made himself of no reputation. These are actions of a divine person and So he will see his offspring he will prolong his days a good pleasure of Yahweh will prosper in his hand a passage similar to psalm 2 psalm 110
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Isaiah 40 won't go into that right now, but it's right there in the middle of the servant song You see that stuff all over the place once your eyes are open to it.
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But anyways, um, so Here is the verse that Josh cited in that context.
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So two things when we look at What is said Isaiah 53 10 is the biblical passage that he provides and He is contrasting
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Jesus as the predestined substitute for sinners over against the phrase victim of Injustice not here have been the two
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Criticisms that have been leveled Against dr. Bice for this one tweet.
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All right, so instead of what Oh, so instead of Allowing for a context or anything along those lines the criticisms from for example
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Kyle James Howard Trying to say y 'all are becoming heretical because it's the wrath of God not the wrath of the
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Father So there's so that the phrase under the wrath of the Father In order to fulfill holy justice, that's one of the criticisms the other criticism obviously is that Jesus was the victim of injustice and if we are only speaking in Proper historical
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Categories Then it's obvious that Dr.
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Bice is not arguing that Herod Pontius Pilate the
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Jews the Sanhedrin and the Romans Altogether put on a tremendous display of human justice in The trial and crucifixion of Jesus that wasn't his point
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It's painfully obvious to anyone who has any desire to be fair That the phrase victim of injustice has as its background our current situation the current teaching that unfortunately filled many pews
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I'm sorry many pulpits and hence filled many pews Over this past weekend and that is that what you have in the resurrection is the reversal of Patterns of systemic injustice now was
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Rome systemically unjust duh Of course
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And Rome wasn't white Don't know how that happened since there was no white supremacy
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Rome was persecuting whites You do know that right who were the barbarians who were the
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Germanic tribes to the north of Rome? Against whom they had battles for lengthy periods of time
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There those were the white dudes. Okay, so the Romans weren't the white dudes. So I Guess you know if we were to do the victim thing
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We could do movies about how we were unjustly Treated by people of color in the past and they had better technology than we had and they colonized us
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We can do the whole thing we can just switch it you can do that all around the world victimization is the easiest thing on the planet because men are sinners and Anybody who knows history can make any group of people a victim of another group of people just depends on how far back you want to go
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It's easy to do What's next to impossible to do is unite people dividing people that's child's play
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It's uniting and that's tough which is what the gospel does which is another issue that we'll get to but anyway
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It is it was not now I have not talked to Josh Weiss, okay I did I've got his phone number right there.
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I can call him. I didn't because this is sort of like Um No one has asked me to defend
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Josh Weiss. I'm just watching this going really seriously You you you can't you can't figure out what the guy was talking.
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You're really seriously suggesting. Let's start with the first one You're really seriously suggesting that he is saying that the
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Romans did a great job of this trial, right? That they were showing us justice. No, he's talking about the narrative
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It was in all those pulpits all around Western world over the past weekend
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Saying that here is systemic injustice and Jesus is reversing systemic injustice and and that he's he's the innocent victim
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That he is the one and this is You get this all over the place all
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Over the place it is horrific The idea is crammed down your throat
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That Jesus was the innocent victim of the great and horrible state and Unfortunately in in most theological seminaries is what you'll get because in most theological seminaries
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What the church prays in Acts 2 23 and 4 27 28 is irrelevant doesn't matter
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You can't connect that to the historical events because they don't believe that there's such a thing as Scripture Where these things are meant to be connected together?
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They don't believe that they're historically accurate they believe that the authors are distorting things and So in the vast majority of theological seminaries, there's not going to be anything about the idea
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That you you need to see all of this thing in a in a balanced way and that you need to look at Acts 223 you need to look at Acts 4 27 28 and that this is to be connected to what actually takes place and so therefore
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Mark's presentation of Jesus at his trial where he quotes from Daniel That's supposed to be contradictory to Matthew and to Luke and especially to John so you go to a seminary almost anywhere and what you're gonna get is
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John has Jesus in control because he's God and he's pulling all the strings and blah blah blah blah blah and Then over on this side mark
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Jesus is out of control. He's so depressed He doesn't know what's happening to him and then
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Matthew and Luke are sort of in between and you've got this evolution And this is this is what you're gonna hear you could hear this from Muslim Apologists and you can hear there's some religious liberals and all the rest of stuff
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The idea that those four are to be put together as one whole not artificially but seeing
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The The very fact that Jesus would quote what he did from Daniel in Mark is missed by most of these people
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Yeah, they're not worried about that Old Testament thing where Jesus is now identifying himself as a divine person
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I could worry about that. And so you just they break up the scriptures
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They're not looking for a way to harmonize the scriptures that does justice to the entirety of scripture so this is what was in the pulpits and This is now what has been
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Tremendously amplified by the woke movement and We've been talking about leaving loud the the former
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Ron Reformed african -american network. We're leaving we are segregating ourselves.
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We're getting away from you people That's the context. So he's talking about now
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Josh if you happen to be listening or someone's told you I'm talking about this if I'm misrepresenting you, please let me know
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My phone's on I'll my my wrist will buzz and I'll see it and but when
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I read that tweet what I'm hearing is Victim of injustice in this context that we have today
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To where he is just he's just washed away in The injustice of the world and the contrast that is no what they did was unjust
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There's no question about that, but it was all under the sovereignty of God It was all purposeful.
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That's why God pre ordained and predestined the very Individuals that were involved we talked about this as a demonstration of the horrific error of open theism or dynamic
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Omniscience or whatever you want to call your open theistic position. We use this as a great Example of it.
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You can't put these people together unless you're the sovereign of history And can accomplish your purpose at the time you wish to accomplish your purpose
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So what he's saying is don't buy into this idea This was purposeful on God's part
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Unjust from their own standards. Yes It was injustice in that way
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But not in this sense of Jesus is this unwilling victim of systemic injustice
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Which is what you get in the vast majority of seminaries It is what you you may not know that a lot of conservatives don't know that they don't listen to liberals
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That's why God forced me to go to Fuller Theological Seminary As the first place that I went because I needed to know this stuff for the next who knows how many years
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So that's the first thing Hi Josh Ah Hey, thank you.
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I'm traveling but listening live and you're interpreting my tweets properly spot -on. Well, thank you very much What a world we live in isn't it?
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I'm gonna tell you I Am such a geek and so it is so it's so really super geeky.
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I don't even know where he is But I'm talking in a microphone in Phoenix and wherever he is.
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He's hearing me and we can communicate Love you, Josh. Thanks.
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I hope I'm like I said, Josh didn't ask me to do this and I do love
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Josh. He's a great guy. He he is I especially in the early g3s when
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I saw all his people working like like just I mean Look like they wanted to fall over and die at the end because there's just so much to do to put one of these things on That I felt like he needed like a month off Cuz it was just it was just so much and so I appreciate it and I and and I know rich would join me
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I Hardly ever had more of an opportunity to shake hands and meet people and hear stories than a g3
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I mean, that's that's that's the whole reason that I'm not gonna get to fly to Atlanta this year
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I'm gonna have to drive to Atlanta this year Hopefully they'll still be letting people into Georgia.
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I'm not sure if the military will be then Cuz cuz you know
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Those those Georgians they're they're crazy crazy people that actually wants you have a driver's license to vote what radicals they are
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Anyways, let's not get into that. Okay So there's the first thing Jesus was not the victim of injustice is simply a statement that Jesus was accomplishing the purpose that he and the
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Father and the Spirit had intended from eternity past in what takes place that doesn't make
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What happened to him an example of justice, but that was not the motivating issue. That was not the motivating power
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Okay, that's number one. That was obvious That was obvious to me when I read it should be obvious to anyone who has it who would take a moment to Contemplate the things that Josh has written and preached on in the past.
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Hey if you watched the Q &A session from G3 a couple years ago
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Josh was in that group with me and Bodhi and Phil and Tom and so on and Tom Buck and Michael Fallon were all up there talking about this stuff
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And so you should have had the context for it. It wasn't overly difficult to understand, but then the other thing the other thing
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So for example if you See a fellow by the name of Griffin Gulledge.
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I know Griffin back a number of years ago Griffin and I communicated back and forth about the
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Eric and Cantor stuff and he was a big fan back then and he went to seminary and now
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Griffin has very different perspectives that happens a lot when people go to seminary at times and It's sad when it does
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But that's happened here So let's let's look at some of the responses that were given to Josh here in this thread, and then
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I want to look at The comments of one dr. Orrin Martin from Southern Seminary Boyce College As well because I think it's important So Jacob Denhollander.
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Yes the Jacob Denhollander Are you attributing primal?
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Causal agency to God the father and then it it's it's it says in the in the death of Jesus That is
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Jesus died on account of the father's wrath question mark now
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I'm not sure what that's going for. I'm really not because later on in the
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Thread He comments again per Calvin God equals Trinity unless context demands
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Otherwise this simple exegetical principle will transform transform how you understand
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Scripture Well, okay, and then a little bit below that in responding to Michael Linton who is a
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Southwestern graduate Who made the very helpful comment the hope is that these people will slowly but surely be clowned themselves into obscurity
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I'm he's referring to Josh Bice. This is a this is a graduate of a Southern Baptist seminary
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Referring to another Southern Baptist pastor pastor of a large Southern Baptist Church Hoping that these people will surely will slowly but surely be clowned themselves into obscurity and that's
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It gives you a little insight Into the mindset of The folks will be voting one direction at the convention this year to which
40:59
Den Hollander responded. I'm just concerned about the ones who listen to them on their way down on Their way down to what be clowned themselves into obscurity
41:10
All right. So There is a mindset on the part of these folks these represent
41:22
Linton Gulledge and Den Hollander. Den Hollander is a Southern Gulledge is Southeastern and Linton is a graduate of Southwestern as far as I can tell from what they post online
41:35
So there seems to be a Collaborative effort to try to communicate to people.
41:43
Hey these non -woke folks They're they're they're not even they don't even understand the doctrine of the
41:50
Trinity But I'm sitting here going what? Because let me show you one other here.
42:01
Let me show you the the question that Well, I'm just gonna have to read it to you for now
42:09
Because I don't have a graphic with this without dragging as a window of a browser over and I still want to mess everything up Dr.
42:18
Orrin Martin Southern Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Boyce College What a he quote he quote tweets
42:25
Josh's tweet same one and has one sentence
42:31
One reason I teach theology is to help those training for ministry and life to avoid erroneous and sloppy takes like this that was
42:46
April 3rd, so that would have been Saturday One reason I teach theology is to help those training for ministry and life to avoid erroneous and sloppy takes like this now
42:57
I says husband father professor of theology as SBTS Boyce College pastor at Clifton Baptist If you want to know who we're talking about here,
43:10
I don't know him. I've never seen a book by him I I can't give you anything more than than that I'd never heard the guy before but there he is
43:20
So so this is If if you get basic training is what's being communicated here
43:28
For ministry in life, then you will if you get just a basic training then you can avoid erroneous and sloppy takes like this
43:36
That's a real shot if you're if you're missing things, I mean that's sort of it's not really even passive -aggressive that's just a direct
43:44
Insulting shot and I hold dr. Martin to the highest standard because he should know better.
43:51
He should know what Josh Weiss's background is he should know what the
43:58
What the theological context what was being said was and I asked dr.
44:03
Martin, could you be specific? What do you think? Dr. Bice is saying? He didn't respond to me.
44:08
Not that I ever saw anyways, you know how Twitter is But he did respond to someone else a fellow by a name of Eduardo Oliveira Hey, dr.
44:23
Orrin R. Martin. Can you explain why what is theologically wrong with that tweet and He says gladly acts 223 says that Jesus in accordance with God's plan was unjustly crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men
44:37
Also wrath is an attribute of God not just one person So There have been a
44:51
Number of folks who have pointed out and let me see. Yeah, Ron Hensel, Ron Hensel on Twitter Did a really good job.
45:03
He has dug up at least half a dozen citations from From Spurgeon on back into the
45:14
Reformers including citations to the Institute's the Christian religion and other citations like that Where he's got
45:23
Stephen Sharnock Quote Stephen Stephen Sharnock said and surely after he
45:30
Christ had vanquished his father's wrath and Triumphed over the enemies of his honor
45:35
He quotes James Colquhoun The sense of the father's wrath in his soul rung from him the doleful outcry my god my god
45:45
Why has thou forsaken me? There's a another citation for Sharnock a couple bunch of citations for Sharnock Thomas Watson Jesus Christ went in the furnace of his father's wrath and those that believe in him and smell the fire of hell shall never pass upon them
46:03
Robert Erskine is cited here Thomas Brooks is cited here John Flavel He Christ suffered in his soul as well as in his body and the sufferings of his soul with the very soul of his
46:13
Sufferings it was the father's wrath that lay so heavily upon him Heinrich Bollinger We perceive that by the true faith in Christ the
46:22
Son of God is altogether ours and that he hath appeased the father in our behalf Directly the father's wrath, but same thing the
46:29
Belgic Confession article 21 under the atonement now a bunch of heretics in the Belgic Confession Didn't know the
46:36
Trinity at all We believe Jesus Christ presented himself in our name before his father to appease his father's wrath with full dissatisfaction by offering himself from 1561 and then of course you have the citations from Calvin Calvin's New Testament Commentaries he has borne the punishment to acquit us.
46:56
He has made us clean by his blood He has appeased the wrath of the father by his own obedience you also have citations also found within the
47:05
Institutes the Christian religion as well. So for 1621 he offered himself obedient death to the father
47:13
By his obedience. He canceled disobedience of man which had aroused God's wrath, etc, etc, etc
47:19
It had not I had to read for a second and go what you know, Kyle James Howard okay,
47:24
Kyle James Howard is not a theologian, but I Had to read what was being argued to even understand.
47:32
Well, wait a minute The wrath of the father is a perfectly understandable phrase. We're talking about the economic
47:38
Trinity It was not the father who became incarnate it was not the father who bore
47:44
The wrath of God triune God against sin. It was the son. So who is acting as judge here?
47:52
Who is pouring out wrath? It sounds like these guys are saying you can't say you can't say that sounds like what what
48:03
Den Hollander is saying is That since all you have is the generic phrase wrath of God in Scripture that even though at the cross you have
48:14
Inter -trinitarian communication you can't say it's the wrath of the father.
48:19
The father is acting as judge You can't do that. Even though Jesus is presenting himself to the father
48:26
Somehow you can't do that. Not sure how these guys became the definers of Reformed Orthodoxy against Calvin and all the rest of them
48:34
I'll tell you why they've not read them They don't know They're woke and so they're gonna do what they want to do.
48:43
I that's the reason for that. But anyway But it was it's just so plain and obvious If you are willing to read fairly that this is a fully understandable phrase
48:58
That it does not require trinitarian error that it's talking about the father's role as judge
49:05
Which no one seems to have any problem with in Romans chapter 8 When you talk about the golden chain
49:13
And when you talk about intercession, who is who is the son interceding before are there places where it simply doesn't say father
49:22
But is it not the father that he's interceding before? Does Christ as Messiah not have the intrinsic role of high priest?
49:31
Given the role he has taken as the incarnate one Who are we united to?
49:38
We're united to the God -man, to the Son By him to the Father and the
49:43
Spirit but uniquely to him because he uniquely took on flesh I mean all due respect
49:57
But Kyle James Howard, Griffin Gulledge, Jacob Denhollander, you are not trinitarian experts gentlemen
50:04
You might want to be a little slower You've not defended this doctrine globally
50:11
You might want to be a little slower in using trinitarian theology as a woke bat over somebody else's head
50:20
That's my suggestion to you Yes, I just figured you were having fun with with all your toys out there.
50:26
I do have some new knobs Oh, you've got you zoomed it in a little bit too much. I have I have some new knobs to work with here
50:33
We'll do that. How about that? Is that better? Does that work? Okay, so I was watching this exchange last night and Immediately what came to mind
50:44
Was you know the Garden of Gethsemane? Matthew 26 39
50:50
And he went on a little beyond them and he fell on his face and prayed my father if it is possible Let this cup pass from me yet Not as I will but as you will and then we keep going down verse 42
51:02
He went away a second time and prayed saying my father if this cannot pass away unless I drink it
51:08
Your will be done. The father's got no role here. What is this cup? Yeah They're clueless as to what was going on no completely lost track of it.
51:19
No, no, they're not clueless This is this is a wonderful example of how you
51:30
When you get woke your theology gets broke and Theology becomes something that is placed in service of your wokeness and That is why the
51:44
Sun Baths Convention will split. That's why it'll split now this is a somewhat subtle example
51:58
But and so it before I before I forget it So dr.
52:05
Martin says also wrath is an attribute of God not just one person Okay, if you're actually gonna push that dr.
52:12
Martin you're gonna have some serious problems as Far as the economic
52:18
Trinity is concerned because obviously dr Bice was talking about the role of the
52:24
Sun as the incarnate Messiah, which is in the economic Trinity and so if you try to Roll all of the
52:36
Positions taken by Father Son Spirit in redemption, which are different positions
52:41
There are different roles if you're gonna try to bring them all together and make them one you've
52:47
Have you ever debated a oneness Pentecostal I have numerous times You might end up with some problems there.
52:54
You really you really might so When when
53:00
Jesus is baptized you don't you don't see differentiation Distinction ability to recognize who's who is being pleased with the
53:10
Sun Trinitarian Or is that an exact expression of the
53:16
Father toward the Son? I'm sure the Spirit's pleasing the Sun tube. That wasn't the point of the text was it?
53:27
So he goes on quotes from the
53:32
ESV From act 223 in accordance God's plan sinful men killed the sinless one
53:39
But what they intended for evil God sovereignly worked for good, which of course, dr. Bice believes and Dr.
53:46
Martin knows that Then he says in response are you saying
53:51
God's plan was unjust absolutely not read my tweets again sinful men Unjustly killed the sinless one meaning that they had no just basis for crucifying him
53:59
He was sinless and innocent yet. They crucified him alongside criminals yet. All this was in accordance with God's sovereign plan, which again
54:08
Dr. Bice would affirm all of that To which
54:13
I then asked and according to Twitter I have not received response to Anyone dr.
54:19
Martin who would read dr. Bice's words in his own context He has written on this topic and spoken on it often would know that he would fully agree
54:25
So why did you choose to interpret interpret him a contextually? crickets crickets and there will be crickets
54:35
Because there was a purpose here there was an intention here and That intention was to join together with others
54:46
Not because there was actually a danger that what had been said by Josh Bice was going to mislead people or anything else the reason was completely political
55:04
It has to do with the upcoming split in the
55:11
Southern Baptist Convention. I'll just be honest with you about that. You want to know how broke wokeness is
55:23
Let me see if I can find this here because I've got a lot of windows open today
55:30
I've think I've heard of Shaniqua Walker Barnes before Shaniqua Walker Barnes Let me get here's the provided I'm reading it directly
55:47
Dr. Shaniqua Walker Barnes is a clinical psychologist Womanist theologian
55:56
What it says just reading it an Ecumenical minister whose work focuses upon healing the legacies of racial and gender oppression
56:06
Author of I bring the voices of my people a womanist vision for racial reconciliation and Too heavy a yoke black women and the burden of strength
56:17
I just want to stop a second and say I am offended for the transgender community Throw a little intersectionality in there just to break things up for the fun of it
56:30
Womanist theologian. I mean that sounds very anti Transgenderist Very binary very binary.
56:39
Yeah, I'm this must have been back before she became Walker anyway
56:45
She currently serves as associate professor of practical theology at Mercer University She was ordained by an independent fellowship that holds incarnational theology community engagement
57:00
Social justice and prophetic witness as its core values You couldn't buzzword that one any more buzz wordly to be honest with you
57:14
Today this morning on Twitter pictures started showing up Darrell Bernard Harrison some other folks posted
57:24
Graphics of people taking pictures from a book called a rhythm of prayer a rhythm of prayer
57:34
Which I guess is available Target and I guess
57:40
I guess Amazon actually has some actual stores it's available there, too and so I wanted to read you a little bit of a
57:53
Prayer the prayer that's found here. It's it's called prayer of a weary black woman prayer of a weary black woman
58:04
By Shaniqua Walker Barnes PhD you want you want woke theology you want where it goes?
58:10
Where you can't stop it from going Here it is Dear God Please help me to hate white people white is capitalized
58:23
Or at least to want to hate them at least I want to stop caring about them individually and collectively
58:29
I want to stop caring about their misguided Racist souls to stop believing that they can be better that they can stop being racist.
58:37
I Am NOT talking about the white anti racist allies who have taken up this struggle against racism with their whole lives
58:43
The ones who stand vigil for weeks outside jails where black women are killed who show up in Charlottesville and Ferguson and Baltimore and Pasadena To take a public stand against racism and police brutality who are so committed to fighting white supremacy
58:56
That their own lives bear the wounds of its scars. No, those aren't the people I want to hate I'm not even talking about the ardent racists
59:04
I are the strident segregationists who mow down nonviolent anti racist protesters who open fire on black churchgoers who plot acts of racial terrorism
59:12
Hoping to start a race war those people are already in hell. There's no need to waste hatred on them
59:17
Perhaps whoever you could make sure that they don't take the rest of us with them that their attempts at harming others are thwarted
59:23
And they don't gain access to positions of power. My prayer is that you would help me to hate the other white people capital
59:29
W You know the nice ones the Fox News loving
59:34
Trump supporting voters who don't see color But who make thinly veiled racist comments about those people
59:43
The people who are happy to have me over for dinner But alert the neighborhood watch anytime an unrecognized person of color passes their house
59:50
The people who welcome black people in their churches and small groups But brand us as heretics if we suggest that Christianity is concerned with the poor and the oppressed
59:58
The people who politely tell us that we can leave when we call out the racial microaggressions we experience in their ministries
01:00:07
But since I don't have many relationships with people like that Perhaps they are not a good use of hatred either, and I just stop right there at it
01:00:16
It tells you Lord grant me then the permission and desire to hate the white people who claim the progressive label
01:00:23
But who are really wolves in sheep's clothing Those who've learned enough history read enough books spent enough time in other countries to make themselves seem knowledgeable Even though that knowledge remains far removed from their hearts, but whose unexamined white supremacy
01:00:38
Bubbles up at times. I'm not expecting it when I have my guard down and my heart open Lord If you can't make me hate them at least spare me from their perennial gaslighting white mansplaining and white woman tears
01:00:52
Lord if it be your will harden my heart and it goes on from there now
01:01:05
That is the result of woke theology biblically defined
01:01:17
Sinful Racism real racism not the fake racism we have today based upon white supremacy
01:01:24
Like I you know that I exposed earlier in a program when I was talking about how the Romans were attacking the Germanic tribes and Actually those tribes were the white people back then and they lived up north and it didn't get a lot of Suns they're white and The darker -skinned people were attacking them and they were oppressing them and and so it was brown
01:01:39
Supremacy back then and we should we you know every time I think about this Every time I watch the opening scene of gladiator,
01:01:46
I'm just triggered. No, I'm not But other people might be If they are taught that what you need to do is run around seeking triggers be offended
01:02:02
Stoke it up. You're great. Great. Great. Great. Great. Great great ancestors
01:02:08
We're oppressed by colored people Get mad about it. No, I refuse. I don't have to I'm an adult.
01:02:15
I don't have to do that. There you go So this is sinful racism, this is the real racism
01:02:27
That is so reprehensible. It was reprehensible in the South Because it was race -based
01:02:35
Not not this theoretical white supremacy garbage stuff. It was it came out of the heart
01:02:41
It actually viewed yourself as better than someone else based upon a physical characteristic
01:02:48
It is the reprehensible racism, but now it's encouraged.
01:02:54
It's it is encouraged. It's praised It's honored because we've turned everything upside down and We made it religious
01:03:05
Met religious Rhythm of prayer is what that's called
01:03:13
Shaniqua Walker Barnes, look it up. I wasn't making anything up there's not only graphics of people posting it and stuff, but I Went and got the book made sure that we
01:03:26
That we had it exactly, right Also recently and I The whole issue of language fellow by name
01:03:41
Dante Stewart Posted something on Twitter and Dwight McKissick retweeted it and I Here's what it says.
01:03:53
Let's be clear. The word woke is just another word for black When people are talking about wokeness they are talking about black equality black dignity and black liberation
01:04:01
That is what they hate. They are anti black. It has always been about white supremacy and power and Dwight McKissick retweeted that So woke church now means black church if you're sitting there going but That's not what it meant last year
01:04:20
That's the point That's the point. It didn't mean that last year
01:04:26
Just keep changing the meanings just keep changing the narrative. Keep it make it make sure it's a moving target all the time just keep messing with language and you can accomplish your purposes one other thing on this this and then
01:04:47
I'll Go to something else Actually, we've already gone an hour. Um, I Had this queued up on the last program
01:04:58
I can't Zoom any closer than this
01:05:05
You may not want to zoom closer to it But if you want to understand
01:05:12
The societal degradation That the secular movement has spawned in United States this picture says it all this was back from Transgender visibility day sometime last week.
01:05:29
They obviously would put it in passion week or something like that But these are ostensibly
01:05:36
United States military officers You got a problem
01:05:46
Hopefully we can bring it up. We had all the other stuff up. Well riches riches playing with the toys again
01:05:57
So these are United States military officers once we get it up. Hopefully you can Let me just tell you that When the world sees this this encourages
01:06:14
Evil it encourages our enemies
01:06:20
Well, you know, I see was bigger it encourages Terrorism it discourages our military
01:06:33
The The man there, especially in the green
01:06:39
Dress is a frumpy middle -aged, dude My four -year -old granddaughter would recognize him as a dude because she has common sense
01:06:52
These are Pictures that the CCP the
01:06:59
Russian military the Iranian military Every radical
01:07:05
Islamic group in the world Rejoices to see this Rejoices and if you follow the news and saw the man who was placed in charge of our special forces like the
01:07:18
SEAL teams You know, they're done. They're done because you know now the key for SEAL teams is equality and inclusivity and anybody who knows anything about SEAL teams knows the only thing that matters for a
01:07:37
SEAL team is That every person is the best possible person at his job doesn't matter what color he is
01:07:44
Nothing at all We're done The the the the the
01:07:51
Chinese don't even have to worry about invasion We've rolled over and stuck our legs in the air and gone take us
01:08:00
Because these people no one I can guarantee you there's not a terrorist in the world's afraid of these dudes and dresses
01:08:08
Not a one they know they have common sense This is what wokeness does
01:08:15
It it destroys the most basic level of common sense that my mankind has
01:08:22
It is truly amazing to see but this is this you know people say well
01:08:31
Why would God allow this this is judgment that that is judgment
01:08:39
Upon a people who had great light and if you read Romans chapter 1 he gave them over He gave them over to the desires their flesh to dishonor themselves amongst themselves
01:08:52
Those men are dishonoring themselves. They are men. They're created by God to be men. They're dishonoring themselves publicly.
01:09:03
All right, one last thing I'm probably forgetting something Where's Evernote there it is
01:09:12
Um That now get to that we'll get to that one someday
01:09:20
Neil Shenvey did put out a tweet Late last year.
01:09:26
I only saw it retweeted by somebody else It is sort of helpful critical race theory in one tweet racism is a a system of privilege
01:09:39
It's always privilege B or two that's number one. Sorry a system of privilege to Normal pervasive and permanent there's the real issue normal pervasive and permanent
01:09:54
See that the world has no way of dealing of changing hearts. There's no endgame to Critical race theory or critical critical anything theory because What's put in between the
01:10:11
C and the T? Has to be broken down until it's no longer Recognizable functional anything else because there's no creator
01:10:19
God that gives unity and harmony to creation number three hidden beneath ideas like colorblindness and objectivity, so there's no one who's objective and Colorblindness you can't be
01:10:32
Such a shame that I once was for best understood through lived experience standpoint epistemology that all ethnic
01:10:44
Gnosticism as Vodi would put it and Five part of interlocking systems of oppression
01:10:52
The neo -marxist element There's obviously much more to be said point is it's pretty tough to try to accurately describe something like that in one tweet that's
01:11:08
That's that's hard work But I think there was some very important things there to be grabbed hold of and understood alright one last thing
01:11:18
I was asked to comment on this and So I will briefly
01:11:26
It's something that we have looked at many many times before But we didn't this particular resurrection season and it is a
01:11:41
Post from cross -examined Dr. Frank Turk's ministry, I don't know if he wrote it but Basically it says
01:11:52
Christianity isn't true just because the Bible says it's true Christianity is true because an event occurred
01:12:03
True we wouldn't know much about Christianity if the reports the resurrection had never been written But the resurrection preceded the reports of it.
01:12:10
Does it sound familiar to you? Andy Stanley Okay, this is this is the
01:12:16
Andy Stanley. This is the the issue of seeking to avoid the centrality of Scriptural revelation as central to the truth claims of Christianity Paul was a
01:12:34
Christian before he wrote a word in the New Testament So as Matthew John James Peter said or why because they had witnessed the resurrected
01:12:42
Jesus There is a small moment of truth with a big hole of error in this statement
01:12:52
They had witnessed the resurrected Jesus and what was the first thing the resurrected Jesus did with them?
01:12:59
first thing went to scripture and Upbraided them rebuked them for being slow to believe what the scriptures?
01:13:10
So you notice it said Paul's Christian before he wrote a word in the New Testament But he was not a
01:13:15
Christian before the entire Tanakh had been written which was the Bible of the early church and the basis of his proclamation and It's the
01:13:26
Tanakh that is most embarrassing to many modern Apologists who just don't know what well enough to defend it.
01:13:38
Paul was a Christian before he wrote a word in the New Testament yeah, but he wasn't a Christian before Moses wrote the
01:13:44
Torah or Isaiah wrote Isaiah or David gave us so many of the Psalms And it says because they had witnessed the resurrected
01:13:51
Jesus the resurrected Jesus. The first thing he did was open their minds to understand what? the scriptures
01:13:58
The attempt to separate the scriptures from the resurrection which gives the resurrection its meaning and its context in relationship to incarnation and death and ascension is
01:14:13
To fundamentally shortchange the church and to distort the resurrection Contrary to what some skeptics may think the
01:14:23
New Testament writers didn't create the resurrection the resurrection created the New Testament writers well
01:14:32
Spirit of God working and accomplishing the decree of the triune
01:14:37
God is what created the New Testament writers and those
01:14:43
New Testament writers continued to give the divine revelation that God had begun to give long before the resurrection and Through what they had given they gave the proper context to us to understand what the resurrection means in light of the death of Christ and light of the person of Christ revealed in the incarnation and Then in the ascension of Christ and his being seated at the right hand of the
01:15:12
Father and given all authority in heaven and on Earth In other words the
01:15:20
New Testament documents didn't give us the resurrection the resurrection gave us the New Testament documents
01:15:25
So this is this is the same confusion That Roman Catholicism throws at us.
01:15:32
They would say the church Didn't give us a New Testament the new the
01:15:39
The New Testament didn't give us the church the church gave us a New Testament So their ultimate authority is the church
01:15:47
This perspective is well, it's the New Testament. It's that it's resurrection. It gives us a New Testament All of which is simply ignoring the full spectrum of divine revelation
01:16:02
The New Testament documents Defined for us what the resurrection was what it meant its relationship to the to everything else and the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy
01:16:13
It's meant to be taken as one There would be no
01:16:18
New Testament unless the resurrection occurred. Well, that's true of the incarnation That's true of the crucifixion. That's true of the resurrection and of the ascension of Christ and the outpouring of the
01:16:27
Holy Spirit Observant Jews would never have invented that well
01:16:37
Yeah, so I don't that seemed like a throwaway sentence there at the end This is why the foundational beliefs of Christianity what
01:16:46
CS Lewis called mere Christianity are true even with reports have some merits here's here's what you're getting at is This mere
01:16:53
Christianity movement seeks To find a way to assert that Christianity is true
01:17:01
Even if the revelation of God that contains the message of Christianity has errors Getting details wrong and reporting the resurrection doesn't change the larger point that the resurrection actually happened
01:17:13
Except that the resurrection is a divine event and therefore what you were to do with the resurrection is determined by God who must communicate
01:17:20
That to you, which he does in Scripture. So I find this and Dr.
01:17:27
Turek didn't make this up, but he repeats it. I find this an abdication of the apologists task
01:17:34
It is is not it is not how the Apostles argued They did not try to make these distinctions in any way shape or form
01:17:44
In any way shape or form and so I was asked to comment on this By a brother over in the
01:17:50
Philippines and so we have looked at Mike Licona's presentation of this and some debates and we've and William Lane Craig has made similar types of argumentation
01:18:06
And so we've looked at a number of times in the past and Basically said this is this is not a a sound
01:18:16
It's one of those situations where you use something out there to try to get somebody in and Then once they're in you're gonna end up changing
01:18:26
Your Exegesis hermeneutics teaching once you got him in and it's like well, you know,
01:18:32
I didn't really mean it that way maybe I should say it this way I Can't do apologetics that way.
01:18:39
I Cannot do apologetics that way. It's it's not the appropriate way to do it Okay.
01:18:46
All right. Well Let's see, we managed to split the Southern Baps convention today and Get ourselves banned from Facebook and YouTube and it's gonna happen
01:19:00
Eventually it it has to with everybody else who's gotten kicked out, you know, just showing that picture
01:19:08
That's it but to any YouTube Censor probably getting paid fundamentally by the
01:19:17
Chinese Communist Party If you can look at that picture and go Yeah That's what the military needs to be then you're a fool and you know that what
01:19:27
I was saying is true And if you censor us for speaking the truth God will judge you just so you know
01:19:33
You need to know that when you promote lies God will judge you for promoting lies.
01:19:40
Just so you know, so, you know Be aware Okay, all right, there you go want to get to it early this week
01:19:49
But my intention is to be back tomorrow we need to get back to the Trent Horn Presentation so got to continue on with that I only get a few a minute or two in each time because there's so much to talk about church history wise and things like That so we've got to get back to that and we'll try to get back to that tomorrow on the program.