Introduction to Alpha & Omega Ministries and an Interview with a Reformed Baptist Pastor

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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This is the Dividing Line Radio Broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all

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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Your host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -274 -1360 or toll free across the

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United States. It's 1 -888 -550 -1360. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. Welcome to the Dividing Line. My name is Benny Diaz. Dr. White is not here.

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I am your host today. Dr. White is currently in Florida or off in the ocean on a

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Bible cruise with a number of folks. Mr. White had a series of debates followed by some speaking engagements.

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With me is a true friend and pastor, John Gerizzo. He's pastor of Grace Covenant Church located in Gilbert, Arizona.

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Welcome, John. Thank you, Benny. It's a privilege to be here. We appreciate Alpha Omega Ministries, all that they've been doing in the community.

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Well today, I'd like to ask our audience, our listening audience, to consider a few things.

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Have John here for a reason. This week, this

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Saturday, I'd like to really consider a few things. First, I'd like to ask for my audience to allow me a few moments to just reflect and remind us about Alpha Omega Ministries, what we're all about.

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What does Alpha Omega Ministries do? Why do we have this radio program?

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And afterwards, I'd like to stress how important it is for believers to be a part of the local Bible believing church and God's purpose for it.

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That is one of the reasons I asked John to visit. I believe that the local church is very important.

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I believe that without the local church and faithful pastors like John over the years, Alpha Omega Ministries and their efforts would have been fruitless.

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We've seen how God has used local churches and pastors to come alongside us, to encourage us, and we have acquired a number of resources in people from these local churches.

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It is a real need today for a church that has the desire to put the

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Bible first, put God high on his lofty glory, and to seek the souls of those who are lost.

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And unfortunately today, many churches have forgotten that. John Gerizzo will be telling us a little bit about the church that God entrusted to him and what role they play in building up people that God has called to them.

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And with that, I would like you as a listening audience to have the privilege of even calling in the second hour and talking and hearing from John and ask questions, what's ever on your heart and mind.

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There are some out there that might be in transition. Some of you are like myself. I was a former

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Roman Catholic, and after coming to the Lord, it was a real desire, a yearning in my heart to find a place that would teach the

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Bible that set me free, the truth that set me free. You may not be one. You might be someone who is in a current church, and you've noticed that your church has lost their love for Christ and his word.

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You yearn for solid Bible preaching and teaching from a church that is growing in its love for God, for others.

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You have an opportunity to call in today and talk with John and myself. Now, Alpha Omega Ministries has a basis that we founded back in 1983.

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I've had the privilege of being a part of the ministry for, gosh, it's 17 years, in various and sundry roles from taking out the trash to speaking with people, sharing with Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, corresponding by writing.

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But one of the things that stands out, what's really a basis for our ministry, and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the gospel is really the gospel of grace.

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It is a story of how God in his great love sent his Son, God incarnate in human flesh, to this earth to live as Jesus of Nazareth.

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He died as the sacrifice that gives eternal life to all who believe. It is a story of Christ's death, his burial and resurrection.

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It is the fact of a free gift salvation which is offered without charge to all who are drawn by the Father to the

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Son, Jesus Christ. This wonderful gospel is powerful. It changes people's lives. Satan, however, does not like the gospel.

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In fact, he will do anything in his power to keep people from hearing and accepting the gospel because when people do, they are removed from his power and his kingdom and transferred to God's kingdom.

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Satan has many schemes to keep people in the dark. One of the most effective is to deceive people with a false teaching, a false hope.

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He can create counterfeit religions, religions that look just like the real thing, except they are missing the one most important thing, the real gospel and the real

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Jesus. He devises false Jesuses that cannot save, false gods that cannot love, and false gospels that only bring disappointment and doom.

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Our purpose of Alpha and Omega Ministries over the years is we believe as Christians to have the responsibility to share the gospel with all people.

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How are we to do this with people who have already been given a false gospel, a false Jesus? Alpha and Omega Ministries is founded on the concept that God is able to use well -trained, well -equipped believers to share the gospel of grace with lost, deceived people.

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We believe God's word does have the answers to the attacks and claims made by cults and false religions.

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Instead of the Christian church losing people to the cults, we should be seeing literally thousands of people coming to know the

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Lord out of these groups. Our plan and hopes, by the mercy of God, to accomplish this, at Alpha and Omega we have been privileged to be actually involved in sharing the gospel of grace with the members of such groups as the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, better known as the Mormons, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, better known as Jehovah's Witnesses, and the

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Roman Catholic Church. This work began out of a sincere desire to proclaim the gospel of grace with only the

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LDS people, but it quickly expanded in its scope. You will find us where the people are, passing out tracts and witnessing at the semi -annual

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General Conference of the LDS Church in Salt Lake City, Utah. We have shared the gospel with Jehovah's Witness elders and kingdom halls or in people's homes.

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Dr. White has debated the best Roman Catholic apologists in large Catholic churches, colleges and halls.

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We provide tracts and information which are specifically designed for use with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Atheists and Roman Catholics.

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Now with the advent of the Internet and the World Wide Web, the face of apologetics has changed. Our website www .aomin

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.org is one of the most often accessed sites on the web. We now provide many of our debates in real audio so that they are available literally around the world.

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This ministry combined with more than 15 books written by Dr. White, tracts, tapes, have all allowed us to spread

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God's truth far beyond anything we could have dreamed of in 1983. I humbly say that this has been a tremendous privilege.

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Don't get me wrong. However, it does not stop here. We have always felt that the only way in which we are able to minister to the millions who are trapped in these groups is to multiply our numbers, to equip the church.

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In other words, we must provide training and resources for other Christians so they might be ready to bear testimony to those lost in this falsehood.

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We've in the past offered training opportunities designed to prepare the Christian to meet the religious lost on his or her own ground, to lovingly and effectively share the gospel in terms that they can understand and when necessary, provide an adequate and convincing defense of Christian beliefs.

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Along with this, we offered factual, respectful expositions of these errors in those groups so that the non -Christians see the deception.

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We were reminded by the Apostle Paul in 2 Timothy 2 .24 -26 where he says that the

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Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome or argumentative, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition if, perhaps,

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God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth and they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

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Our seminars and training courses have emphasized Bible memorization, solid Bible doctrine, and hands -on exposure to the teaching and materials of these particular groups.

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We've had seminars dealing with such subjects as the nature of God, the deity of Christ, salvation by grace, the Book of Mormon, New World Translation, and others.

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These have provided the student with opportunities of gaining firsthand information. We've held role plays and other situations that build the

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Christian's knowledge and experience in dealing with these groups. Our ministry has been working with Christian apologetics since 1983.

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We never dreamed that God would allow us to touch so many lives. We've invited you to be a part of this life.

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We ask that you continue to join us in prayer as God will open the door of opportunity and thousands of believers will go through that door and take the time and effort to share the millions who have been given a false hope and a false gospel.

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The Apostle Peter tells us to sanctify Christ or set him apart as Lord in our hearts, always being ready to make a defense for everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.

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The growth of our ministry has resulted in a greater need to establish a base, yet we determined almost two decades ago to avoid investing time and energy in such things as fundraising.

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We prefer to trust the Lord to lead those to us who would be sensitive to our needs and would share in our dedication to the truth.

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We especially desire to see local Bible -believing churches join us in exposing falsehood and spreading the gospel to all peoples.

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Which brings us to our guest today, John Jerizel. I've known John for, gosh, a number of years.

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Lord, John is one of the many faithful pastors in our valley that have been called of the Lord to shepherd

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God's people in truth, in love, and a desire to glorify him. As I pointed out earlier, he's a pastor of Grace Covenant Church located in Gilbert, Arizona.

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And just without faithful men like John, the church lacks that equipping.

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And much of what I've shared about Alpha and Omega and what we do is not void or outside of the local church.

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We ourselves are members of local churches. We find that it is essential, it is imperative, that believers be planted in local churches.

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And with John here today, I'd like to have John share a little bit about his church and what God's using him with in doing with people at his fellowship there.

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And over the years, you guys have grown not only in spiritual growth, not only in maturity, but in numbers too.

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I understand you guys are building a building now or something. That's right. Concrete for the foundation just this morning.

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I'm still trying to get some of the concrete out of my eye from all the splatters. But Grace Covenant started about 15 years ago.

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We were planted by another church in Mesa that was a Protestant church that held to the doctrines of grace, a church that had a real burden for those who were lost and for evangelism.

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We were started with 15 families approximately. And through the years, we migrated from Mesa to Gilbert where we are now working on a new auditorium and trying to reach out to the community with the true gospel as it is revealed in Scripture.

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One thing too that is important, I think, for our listeners to understand is that when people are brought out of the cults, a lot of times they become very disillusioned and they realize that maybe the church or the group or organization that they were a part of was in fact false and heretical.

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But then they become quite aimless and don't really get planted or rooted and grounded in a solid

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Bible -believing church. I think that's one of the things that I've grown to appreciate about Alpha and Omega Ministries is that they have done a very excellent job leading and directing these people as they come out of the cults into good

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Bible churches. We're really thankful that Grace Covenant can take a part in that in training, teaching these people who are coming out of the cults.

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Like yourself, I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I went through baptism, communion, and confirmation and all that.

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When I was converted in 1979, God in his providence led me to a

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Bible -believing church. I can honestly say that for the first time in my life, even though I had spent years in the

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Roman Catholic Church, for the first time in my life I opened the

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Bible and was able to read the Scriptures on my own and sit under an expository preaching ministry.

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That was such a blessing to a new convert. That's one of the things that we try to focus on at Grace Covenant Church is to preach the

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Bible expositionally, to open up the Scriptures, encourage people to bring their

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Bibles to worship, and to dig into the word of God. Now some of the members,

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God's really equipped your members with spiritual gifts or gifts to serve the body, to glorify God.

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Do you find that there have been a number of specific strengths that you have that the Lord has brought to your church there at Grace Covenant that have really made a difference?

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Absolutely. Our associate pastor, Darrell Gustafson, and his wife, Janet, have a gift for counseling, biblical counseling, or euthanic counseling as it is sometimes called.

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Also, Brother Darrell has a real gift for evangelism. We have others who are gifted teachers, many who are very good at opening the word of God.

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And of course gifts like serving and mercy and compassion and all of that.

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So the Lord has blessed us with many gifted people for which we are very grateful. Now what about how is the

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Lord using your church and reaching the lost? Today in a lot of local churches there is this big campaign to have all kinds of programs, for lack of a better word, certain gimmicks and programs and strategies.

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There is a lot put into it. Some churches hire consultants, etc., etc.

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John, is that what Grace Covenant is all about as far as reaching the lost? Well, what we try to do in terms of reaching the lost is, number one, we try to impress upon every member of the church that they themselves are put in a mission field so that the people that they come in contact with day in and day out, that they ought to try to turn the conversation to the things of God and of Christ, try to encourage them to examine their lives, the people that they're talking to, and to attempt to share the gospel with them.

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Also, we have had various classes where we train people on how to share the gospel, how to develop an outline and a presentation in terms of getting the word of God out.

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We've also, over the years, have developed teams where we have gone door -to -door in the past, and as a matter of fact, we hope to be doing that again here in the near future, and have even been toying with the idea of some street preaching.

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As a matter of fact, I had an opportunity of watching that being demonstrated firsthand last night in downtown

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Tempe, and it was somewhat impressive to see the people that really stopped to listen to this man as he was attempting to proclaim the word of God.

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Well, that sounds really encouraging, John. One writer, I got a copy of a writer's description of the church, and he stated that the church refers to all the people who belong to the

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Lord, those who have been purchased by the blood of Christ. Various other images and expressions are also used to define or describe the church.

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However, the church is called the body of Christ. It's called many things, the family of God, people of God, the elect, the bride of Christ, the new

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Israel, and others. The New Testament word comes from the word, where we get the ecclesiastic, ecclesiastis, which means to call out the called out ones.

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The church is viewed as an assembly or gathering of the elect, those whom God calls out of the world away from sin to the state of grace.

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Now, John, given that backdrop, do we just sit back and people just come to us by God's drawing, which is what

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Scripture tells us, or are there other things that you guys find yourself doing or different ways in which you find that God has been bringing people to your fellowship?

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Well, one of the ways that people have been coming is they have found out about us through our webpage.

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We are part of a larger association of Reformed Baptist churches. It's called the

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Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America, and people can log on to the website, which is reformedbaptist .com,

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and find out where the Reformed Baptist churches are anywhere in the United States that are part of this association.

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Also, we're in the Yellow Pages, and people in the neighborhood, when they are moving into the new area that we are in Gilbert, a lot of people will see our sign and come.

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But we don't want to just rely on those avenues. We also try to encourage people to reach out to unsaved relatives, to those who are neighbors, to those that they may work with, and in sharing the gospel, to encourage them to come and worship with us.

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Now, you state that your churches of the Reformed Baptist persuasion or denomination, you know, in a day and a time, when people look down on denominations, people are always speaking down against them.

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Other Christians say it's divisive or denomination this, denomination that, and usually it's bad.

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It speaks badly. What does it mean for a Christian church to hold to the beliefs of a

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Reformed Baptist church? What does that mean, John? You know, in essence, some of the major tenets. Is it something that's developed recently, or is this something that has a heritage back in time over the centuries?

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Well, I'm glad you asked that question. As you know, the Reformed faith goes back to the time of Martin Luther and the other

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Reformers, but the Reformed Baptists, many trace their heritage, their origins back to England during the 17th century.

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Recently, in I would say the last 50 years, there has been, you could say, a revival of the doctrines of grace, both in England and America, and the

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Reformed Baptists would be the group of Baptists who hold to the doctrines of grace.

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The five points of Calvinism, the five solas, those important doctrines and truths that were hammered out in the

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Reformation, passed on down through the Puritans. So when we speak of the doctrines of grace, in essence, for some of our leaders who don't know what that, or listeners who don't know what that means, in essence it means, specifically, it's really like a six -petal tulip, where they start with God is sovereign, and scripture tells us that God is the king, he's in charge.

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It's a good way to summarize it. However, the first essential, and I think the acronym or acrostic is tulip,

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T -U -L -I -P, what it means to be Reformed is, in doctrine, is number one, man is totally depraved.

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Is that correct? Man is totally depraved, in and of himself, he is sinful, depraved, would not go after God for the life of him, except God does something first.

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The second one, I understand, is you for unconditional election. In other words, God chooses to save us unconditionally.

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Out of his grace, he does this in eternity. We can't comprehend that, but it's something scripture teaches us.

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Limited atonement is one of the most difficult things for people to embrace, and that is specifically stating that God has chosen to atone for those whom he's chosen to save.

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In other words, Christ's death is fully capable, fully capable, it accomplishes its purpose.

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God has got a scope of people he wants to save. The I is irresistible grace, meaning the

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Holy Spirit, God will draw you, God will draw those whom he's elected, those who he died for, they will come to God, and yet the

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P is for perseverance or preservation of the saints, meaning that, once saved, always saved, is an old saying, but I'd rather just say,

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God keeps that which he saves, and we persevere because we have been made new by God and by the

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Holy Spirit of God. Is that, in essence, what the Reformed Baptist church? Yes, I think in a nutshell that's a good way of putting it,

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Benny. You mentioned the sovereignty of God, and that is so important for our listeners, for every

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Christian to be able to understand and come to terms with as they grow in their knowledge of the faith and of scripture.

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One of the problems, I think, in a lot of churches is that man oftentimes becomes the central focus in church ministry rather than God, and we really need to guard against that and always seek to preserve and promote a

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God -centered, a Christ -centered ministry. In fact, there's a book out recently that has come out.

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It's called When People Are Big and God is Small. I think that's a good description of what we see in some of the churches today.

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John, what would you regard as the marks of a true church? I mean, if you were to look at what a true church should be, first of all, what are they?

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Some of the key marks, and secondly, or maybe I could share with some of the things I have discovered are marks of the true church.

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Can you tell me why you think that in fact is something that your grace covenant is really committed to?

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Then maybe some other marks of a true church so that those who are listening are transitioning, are moving on, maybe have come out of these false religions, have a place to go, have markers to look at.

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First, one of the marks is the preaching of God's word, of course. They differ in details of theology or maybe even color of the carpet and the curtains and what have you.

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A good mark of a true church is that they preach the word of God. Sola Scriptura, which is one of the solos you spoke of.

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How do you think about that? Well, I think a church that is going to be God -centered will also be focused upon the

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Scripture. The Bible will have a central place in the life of the church and that means that the preaching of the word will be dominant.

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The ministry will seek to proclaim the word of God faithfully as it is revealed in Scripture and also to encourage the people to live in a practical way what the

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Scriptures are teaching and so the counseling will be done based upon the

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Scriptures, the teaching, the preaching, all of that will be rooted and grounded and flowing forth out of Scripture.

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Excellent. I'm reminded of what Jude says in his epistle where he said, Beloved, I was making known or making every effort to write you about our common salvation.

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I felt it necessary to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

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What does that mean and how is that played out at Grace Covenant? Well, the faith is not the faith that you have personally.

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It's not a subjective faith but it is the object of faith, the faith that has been passed down through the ages, the faith of Christianity.

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The faith that is revealed in the Scriptures is what we need to contend for. We need to contend for its purity.

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We need to contend for its promotion and so that is what every church and every believer ought to be seeking to do is to uphold the truth, the purity of the word of God.

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That's part of contending for the faith. Excellent. Another mark of a true church I discovered and there are probably many more than what

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I had outlined today was the administration was referred to as the administration of the sacraments with regard to the

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Lord's Supper, with regard to the Lord's Supper and baptism.

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Is that something that is a vitally important thing in your church there? Oh, absolutely. The sacraments are not a take it or leave it kind of proposition.

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They have been instituted by Christ for the church through the church. The local church is the proper dispenser of the sacraments and the two sacraments that scripture does reveal is as you said the

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Lord's Supper and baptism. So every true church will seek to have a faithful exercise and involvement as far as the sacraments or the ordinances are concerned.

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What do you do over at Grace Covenant to encourage people toward being a part of the

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Lord's Supper and baptism? Is there something like maybe a little class or study group or when new believers become new believers is it something where you open up the

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Bible and show them why that is so vitally important? Well one thing we do at Grace Covenant church is for new believers we encourage them to take part in a membership class.

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Newcomers who come and are interested in knowing what Grace Covenant is about, what we are teaching, where we are coming from, and where we are going.

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We encourage them to take a four week member class and it is taught by the elders on Sundays.

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And it takes them through not only the distinctives of our church but also gives them a mini course on ecclesiology.

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And so we tell them what the church is all about, why it is important for them to be a part of the local church as a member, the responsibilities, the requirements, the church officers that we have in terms of elders and deacons.

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And I hope I am not jumping the gun but the other thing is church discipline.

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You know you just took the last, the third one. As a matter of fact you probably looked over my notes there but you are right, church discipline.

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Now that is an area that most churches don't touch with a 10 foot pole. They just, church discipline is something we really want to be a part of.

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Why is that important for a local church to be a part of carrying out church discipline? Well I think part of it is just as you read from Jude, is part of contending for the faith and secondly we are commanded to expel the wicked from among us.

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That anyone who calls himself a brother and yet is not living obediently is to be brought under discipline.

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And besides Matthew 18 tells us, gives us very clear instructions as to what we are supposed to do if someone sins, that we are to go to a brother, you know just privately and seek to win them over.

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They will not listen than to take one or two others and if they will not listen to them than to tell it to the church.

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Well we are going to take a break right now and when we get back

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I would encourage those who are listening to call in. Perhaps you have a question or comment for John Gerizzo or myself.

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We welcome your call at 274 -1360 that is 602 -274 -1360.

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You can also call our 800 -888 -550 -1360. Welcome back.

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This is Benny Diaz with Alpha and Omega Ministries here with John Gerizzo, pastor of Grace Covenant Church in Gilbert, Arizona.

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Right now we have been discussing the issue of the local church, the importance of the local church, the purpose of the local church, the pursuits even of the local church and we just finished talking about the marks of a true church and there may be some out there who are in transition.

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Some who have been led astray or led by God's grace and by His providence out of false religions.

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Perhaps you were a Mormon before, Jehovah's Witness, Roman Catholic and you're saying to yourself I really need to go somewhere where the

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Bible is taught. I've learned about Christ and what it means to be saved and put my faith in Christ and His sufficient death, burial, resurrection for my sin,

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His atonement. I don't know how to put all that together but I really need to be around people who believe those things.

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Well if you're in the East Valley on Gilbert I would encourage you to be a part of seeing what John and his wife

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Roberta and the elders there and the family that are doing with the people of God there and how faithful they are to the word.

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We just as I said talked about the marks of the true church. One is that they will preach the word of God, to hold the word of God as their ultimate authority and they will preach it faithfully.

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They won't misuse it. The administration of the sacraments in other words they will observe in obedience to our

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Lord, the Lord's supper and baptism as a sign of our faith and obedience to Christ.

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Those who are believers seek out that participation. And finally church discipline.

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I mean a difficult subject. Many churches today refuse to practice church discipline but for the sake of purity in the church and more importantly obedience to our

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Lord, church discipline is a necessary function of the body. It was really encouraging.

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It caught my attention John was how you said that the elders were involved in a lot of these things. The elders are involved in teaching.

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They're involved in the shepherding or the pastoring. They're involved in the church discipline and it just seems, it appears that your elders are really involved in the life of the church.

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That's true Benny. Our church is not a one man show. The way that our government is designed is that I do not have any more authority than any of the other elders at our church and so they are also encouraged to and have opportunity to preach and to teach and to shepherd.

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In fact I'm under the authority of the board of elders when we get together. I have to answer to their authority and so that's what we call a parity of authority amongst the board of elders.

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Yeah one of the charges that's made about churches that hold the Bible as high and reformed churches is that they're spending a and they're just a bunch of people seeking and pursuing knowledge and just how much can

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I know about the Bible? And that it's not practical. The reformed faith is not practical.

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That's just one of the greatest accusations I hear today with the new church that's coming around and that a lot of our things, our teachings, our practices are not practical.

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What's your response to that John? Well I would say then I guess God is not practical because he is the one who has called the church to live in accordance and in obedience to his word which is what we are trying to do.

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We are trying to pattern the church ministry after Scripture and so if we are being faithful in doing that well then

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I am sure we are being quite practical because God is a very practical

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God. Indeed, indeed. What would you say to someone though? I mean someone who is probably out there that says you know

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I really hesitate to go and leave Roman Catholicism or Jehovah's Witnesses or the

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Mormon church. I mean my family. What will my family do? I am sure you have been faced with that yourself as well as with others.

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I mean what do you as a church, what do you say to someone like that? Well I had a dear cousin of mine who was born and raised

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Roman Catholic and he said you know I have spent, I have given the church 32 years of my life and it just doesn't seem to be ministering to me and now that I am reading the

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Bible there are questions and there are issues that are being raised in my own life and heart and one day he asked me when

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I was over at his house he said cousin John what would you say? What would your suggestion be?

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Should I leave? And I said I have just one word for you, run.

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Run and don't look back and I can say personally from my own personal experience that I have never regretted leaving the

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Roman Catholic Church but it is important that in doing something like that that you do get grounded in a strong Bible believing church and that you try to find a church in your town, your city, your community that holds the word of God high and has the sola scriptura, that burden for the

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Bible. You mentioned the solas. There are several solas.

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What are those that the church holds to? What a good church will hold to? What are those solas and what does it mean?

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Where do they come from? And as John responds I would encourage you all that are calling to call 602 -274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360.

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That's 602 -274 -1360 with your questions and comments for John here. There are commonly known as five solas that were hammered out in the time of the

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Reformation. Sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, sola ideo gloria and sola

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Christus. Sola scriptura means scripture alone or solely scripture in terms of the authority for the church, for the believer is scripture.

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You're not saying that there are no other authorities? No. When you say sola scriptura that that's the only authority?

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No. Are you saying that it's our ultimate authority in faith and morals? Yes. Scripture is our ultimate authority for faith and practice in our

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Christian lives. And what are the other ones? Sola fide. We are saved solely by faith.

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Faith alone in Christ alone and sola gratia.

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Gratia is solely by grace, not by works. Sola ideo gloria, solely to the glory of God.

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That should be the focus that everything we do, whether we eat or drink, should be done to the glory of God.

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And then sola Christus, by Christ alone. And we're saved not by the merits of Rome or the church but by what

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Jesus Christ has accomplished on behalf of his people at the cross. Now John, do you find that you have more of one persuasion of people than another or do you find that God is drawing all kinds of people to your fellowship?

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And if you were to look at the whole flock that the Lord has entrusted you with, what would be the most common background from the people that God has brought your way the last few years?

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Well, it seems that we have a good mixture from all kinds of different backgrounds but it seems that when people come from a

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Roman Catholic background, it sticks out in my mind more than the others perhaps because that's my background as well.

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So I do believe we have a good percentage of former Roman Catholics at Grace Covenant Church.

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That's really encouraging John. We have someone who wants to ask a question here.

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Well guys, what I was wondering John, and this is Rich Pierce by the way, I get so many phone calls during the week really going to the direction of I'm looking for a

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Reformed Baptist Church or a Reformed Church or Reformed work in my area and it just seems so difficult for me to find anything.

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I know to point people in the direction of pharisee .com, John Pharisee's website so that they're able to find some information that he's been able to compile.

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But the thing that is frustrating is oftentimes for a lot of these folks they find that to find a good

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Reformed Church is going to take a long drive. Just a lady I've talked to a number of times this week alone and I hope she's listening today.

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She's probably looking at an hour drive just to get to a decent Reformed work here in the valley and she lives up in the

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West Valley. What do you have to say to that? What is your answer or response regarding these folks that are trying to find a decent

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Reformed work? Is there something out there that they can tap into maybe a little more thorough than pharisee?

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What? Well, Rich, we've seen this happen time and time again where people will come to the doctrines of grace.

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They will realize that they themselves are reforming and then they look around in the local community and they realize that there are no churches that hold to these same truths that are so near and dear to their own hearts and the best thing for them to do until they can find something is to, in a sense, bite the bullet and be willing to make the drive.

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But what also seems to happen is that as they come to these truths, God often times will raise up others in the same area that come to those same truths and it's very likely that in a short amount of time, if there are enough families coming from that same area, that a reformed church could possibly be planted there.

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Now, John, when we speak of reformed church, and that seems to be a catchphrase, are we not also saying we're speaking of a church that is not only holding to certain tenets of the faith, doctrines of grace or the five points of Calvinism or the

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Westminster Confession, the Baptist Confession of 1689, which is, in essence, what you guys hold to?

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Are we not really saying a church that is ever reforming? Yes. Yes. Semper reforma or reformanda, always reforming.

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And I think that's not only biblical, but it's also a very humble approach that we should take. We never can arrive the site of glory to absolute perfection in terms of our ecclesiology, in terms of our understanding of scripture, in the way that we practice it and live it.

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So there is, that's true, we are always reforming. And I think that's one of the major tenets of being a reformed church, is that they're not saying that they have arrived at perfection, they hold the truth in perfection, but that's where they're striving.

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They're striving to reform their church or their lives and bring it into greater conformity with the

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Word of God. What seems to be the most challenging issue for you as a pastor here in the

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Valley? You've been here how many years now, John? Well, I've lived in the Valley since 67, so almost all my life.

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And as a pastor of Grace Covenant Church, that's 15 years now. And one of the challenges

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I would say is to keep that fire, that zeal, that enthusiasm burning in the hearts of our people year after year after year.

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I think there is a great temptation for people to just feel that they've arrived or they've learned the major tenets of the faith and it's become somewhat routine, somewhat ho -hum, day in, day out.

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People can take these things for granted. And so there always should remain a passion for God and for His truth.

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That's one of the things that we wrestle with. Yeah, indeed. I can relate to that. And that perhaps might be why some churches have, appear to have abandoned orthodoxy or traditional

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Christian doctrine and seem to have swayed away because they were trying to keep that zeal, that excitement of the church had, yet forgot, and next you know, in an effort or pursuit of getting people to have that zeal or rekindle that zeal, they lost that which is foundational which is very important, that is our teaching or our doctrine.

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Would you agree with that? Yeah. And losing the zeal is not necessarily a Reformed church's fault.

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It's also a personal responsibility that every Christian has with their Lord is to walk humbly with their

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God and to seek to grow and develop a hunger and thirst for the

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Word and for a closer walk with their Lord. Now John, you also have a real strong desire, passion at times, to see other churches, like -minded churches developed here in the

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Valley, other Reformed churches like yourself, those who have the same convictions doctrinally that would have a love for God, a love for God's people and a love for reaching the lost, those who

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God's calling to himself, and so you're doing that, you're a part of ARPCO.

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Yes. And tell us a little bit about that. Well, the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America was actually founded here in Mesa in 1997 and had its first general assembly where we came together with our own constitution and bylaws and laid out or charted our course and the direction that we were going to follow.

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And part of that involves Reformed Baptist churches throughout the country working together.

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It's not a denomination, it is a voluntary association where we work together to support missions overseas as well as home missions.

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I happen to be a part of the committee on home missions and church planting and like you said it is a burden of mine and something that's a real passion is to see like -minded churches planted.

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So when I hear of this lady on the west side who has to drive an hour, there's something that makes me interested in wondering well is there anyone else in her area that believes the way that she does and is there anyone who has maybe a gift of leadership that would want to organize maybe a mid -week

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Bible study and encourage others to get together and come to this. And before long that could be the core of a new

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Reformed church in the area. Yeah, that's encouraging. I know I myself have that I've been pricked a few times

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I must confess myself and another brother of mine where we do know that there is a need for that and especially in the what

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I call the outer court, if I may, the west side of Phoenix and not to say that there aren't good churches in the west side of Phoenix, the northwest area but there is something special.

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One of the things that when you have had the privilege of looking at teaching and seeing the consequence of a church that abandons sound doctrine.

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I've seen that firsthand. Or a church that has lost its love for its people. Or a church that has gotten so caught up in programs and gimmicks and the financial budgetary things they forgot what

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God has called us to do. And I've had a wonderful time with the

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Lord over the years but I've also been a part of that a couple of times throughout that whole journey with the

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Lord and I know there is a need for that for a sound church out in that area of town.

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And who knows? I mean the Lord is in control and he is moving even though we think we are not.

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He promises us. But the reformed

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Baptist church has always been attractive to me only because of the teaching and the heritage but of those that influenced me greatly.

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The pastors in my life as well as reading someone like Spurgeon.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon is referred to as the Prince of Preachers. And anyone who has read his books and read his sermons knows that that is something that just touches you in a special way.

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Now there are some other activities that you guys are involved in at Grace Covenant as a church or at least a leadership.

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Are there other? Well besides the counseling ministry that we have and our youth ministry we do seek to have our regular

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Bible studies during the week and discipleship ministries. Just like there are other works too and you have been very helpful and a part of encouraging others.

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There is another church called Sovereign Grace Bible Church. As a matter of fact

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I think they are having some classes or Greek classes or something that you have been a part of on Thursday nights.

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Oh that's right. Yes. Brother Mike Munoz has been teaching first year Greek and a group of our members have been driving from Gilbert all the way over to the west side to take these classes on Thursday nights and Mike has done a great job and we are just winding down.

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I think we have about three more classes to go and we will be done with the book and it has been a real blessing.

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Yeah I need to apologize for that John. I mean Sovereign Grace has been around and they have had a tremendous journey themselves and they are reformed work being really faithful to the

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Lord there. I didn't mean to exclude them when I spoke about the outer court. I was thinking somewhere like where I live on the way out west.

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But you know John there are a number of charges made against the reformed churches.

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You know what's the most disappointing one that you keep receiving or hear about?

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Well it's hard to pick out one amongst the many. Sometimes they will say well if you are reformed well then you must not believe in evangelism or if you are reformed then you probably don't have a big burden for prayer.

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If you are reformed you are the frozen chosen or the holy huddle and you don't have any interest in lost souls or any passion for those who are without Christ.

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I think those are all caricatures of what the reformed faith is all about.

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In fact some of the greatest missionaries, men like William Carey and John Elliott and others, they were all men who were reformed who held to the doctrines of grace.

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Some of the greatest preachers like Spurgeon whom you mentioned also held to these important truths.

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So these truths don't cause you to grow cold in your desire to see the lost one to Christ.

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They really tend to spur you on knowing that God has an elect people and he has chosen for them to be saved through the preaching of the word and we are the ones who are sent out to proclaim the word.

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You know John in our last few minutes together, there is a lot on your heart. I mean

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God develops you as a man of God and there are a lot of things that you would love to see or there are some things that are just a passion that never go away.

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If you could share with us, the listening audience, what those are, what would they be?

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Well I think one would be a desire to see God's people, God's elect brought into the church.

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Those who are yet unconverted, that he has the chosen people.

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He has many people in this city yet who have not yet come under the proclamation of the word of God.

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So I have a passion and a burden to see sinners one to Christ.

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To see them bow the knee and with their mouth confess that Jesus Christ is

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Lord and embrace him in their heart. Also I would like to see new converses as well as old come to a deeper understanding of the word of God.

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We do have a great and awesome God and yet people have been Christians for so long and they hardly know this

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God that we serve and part of that will involve a deeper understanding of scripture because that is how

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God reveals himself besides general revelation. And also along with that I think that would lead into a desire to see a good solid reformed seminary.

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Our church has been praying on and off for years that God might raise up a reformed seminary.

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Something perhaps that even the local reformed men here in the valley could take part in teaching.

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And then probably the fourth thing would be to see more churches reforming either churches that are existing reforming and embracing these truths or new churches being planted so that the ladies and this woman on the west side of town and also

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I think up in the northeast valley will have a place to worship as well.

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Indeed John. It has been a real pleasure. I mean we've got a lot more to talk about and catch up.

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We don't see each other as often as we like but we're really grateful that you came to be a guest today.

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Well thank you Benny. It's been a real joy and delight and certainly appreciate your friendship and Cindy and the

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Alpha and Omega Ministries. They've done a lot of good and it's exciting to see what God is doing in that work.

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And we at Alpha and Omega Ministries are ever so concerned with the local church.

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We want to be a tool or a resource for the local church. And you may be a pastor listening today or someone in part of the local church and you really would like to be equipped so that you can edify the body there or perhaps reach the lost in your own life or in the community in which your church is located and we'd like to be of help and like I said there's several ways to reach us.

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One is the World Wide Web at www .aomin .org. We also have our phone number and you can call for that here at 274 -1360 and get that information from us as well.

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And Dr. White, James White has written a number of great resources, good books to help equip and strengthen you as a believer.

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Our prayer is that you would pray and continue to pray for Alpha and Omega Ministries as God uses us. We are but his servants and if we sound as if we are boasting let me first be the one to apologize.

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We humbly would say that we offer ourselves. It is a tremendous privilege to serve the

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King of Kings and to know the truth that sets men free. There's no question that God has mercy and grace has saved some of us.

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He has drawn us out of a religion that has by its clutches and by his grace did not give us a hatred to those who we worshipped with before but a love for them to the point of telling them the truth and to reaching them, reaching the lost with the truth.

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A love that says you know Christ is Lord and I want you to experience the freedom that is in Christ and take the shackles of religion and bondage of these cultist practices out of your lives.

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And Alpha and Omega Ministries wants to offer themselves to you for that. And with that I just would ask that you continue to pray.

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Pray for Alpha and Omega. Pray for the churches that God is establishing here at Phoenix, Arizona metropolitan area.

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And until the next time we hope that God might bring another faithful man that we can profile here who is being faithful as a shepherd and pastor of the church of God.

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Well I hope you have a tremendous weekend if not afternoon. Godspeed. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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If you would like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

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Box 37106 Phoenix, Arizona 85069. You can also find us on the world wide web at aomin .org

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that's A -O -M -I -N dot O -R -G where you will find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates and tracks.