November 11, 2020 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “Pope Francis’s Affirmation of Same-Sex ‘Civil Unions'”

The Program Opens With Scripture and the Show’s Mission

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this very rainy Veterans Day, November 11th, 2020.

At least it's very rainy here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. I am thrilled to have back on the program a very dear friend who's also one of my favorite guests, one of my favorite conference speakers who I have arranged conferences and debate for here in Carlisle and also on Long Island, New York and in New York City.

Pope Francis, Civil Unions, and the Question of Papal Infallibility

His name is Dr. Tony Costa. He's the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and he also happens to be an expert on Roman Catholicism. And Dr. Costa is himself a former Roman Catholic before receiving the gift of eternal life and a new heart by the grace and mercy of God.

He is currently a Reformed Baptist scholar, theologian, and apologist. And we are going to be discussing today Pope Francis's affirmation of same-sex civil unions and what does this say about Rome's claims that an infallible papacy prevents doctrinal confusion.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Tony Costa.

Hey, Chris, it's great to be back.

And before we go into the topic, tell our listeners about Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Yes, Toronto Baptist Seminary is a Reformed men and women for the trained both men and women. We have trained men into the past covenant. We have one of the reasons being that...

Well, I'm utterly shocked. You mean to tell me the government of Canada would not want to gleefully support a conservative, biblically sound theological seminary?

No, no, not at all. In fact, our prime minister once remarked that...

It never ceases to amaze me how very liberal individuals and organizations and churches and governments can be so warm and loving and supportive of Islam when the very reasons they typically hate evangelical Bible-believing Christianity, the very reasons are typically involved our strong stances on biblical morality.

And Islam shares the majority of those moral positions actually on steroids, and because if you are living in under Sharia law, you could very likely be executed for disobeying those moral regulations.

Minorities in Christianity, you will notice it is always something that is capitalized and something that is always front and center.

That is not our discussion today, however, and we must get you back on to discuss Islam, since it is an area of expertise that you have as professor of Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. But today, we are discussing something that has evoked a lot of controversy, both inside and outside the Church of Rome, both on the left and the right wing of Roman Catholicism itself.

This has all stemmed from a documentary that has recently been produced called Francesco, and in this new documentary, Pope Francis expressed openness to the idea of laws recognizing civil unions, including for homosexual couples, to protect their rights.

Some of the statements, and I am going to go through these statements right now all in a row, and then we will later, immediately following, we will put these under the microscope one by one and have Dr. Costa respond to them.

The statements by Pope Francis that are most controversial in regard to this issue are, homosexual persons have a right to be in the family, and the parents have a right to recognize this son as homosexual, this daughter as homosexual.

Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it. And another statement that he made, they are children of God, referring to homosexuals, and have a right to a family. And then he also said, I've always defended doctrine, and it is curious about the law on homosexual marriage.

It is a contradiction to speak of homosexual marriage. Okay, that's good so far, but what we have to create is a civil union law, that way they are legally covered. I defended that. So those are the comments from this documentary, Francesco, that Pope Francis uttered during this documentary.

And of course there are the more conservative Catholics that are critiquing the documentary or, you know, accusing the documentary of taking Pope Francis's words out of context by stringing a bunch of statements like this together, when apparently, according to these conservative Catholics, that they were stated by Pope Francis with greater gaps of time in between, and somehow that is supposed to change to some degree their meaning.

I don't know how those statements taken right on their face could be viewed more approvingly by any conservative individual, anybody who believes in the inerrancy of the Bible, as much as we oppose the Church of Rome for having a false gospel and for their denial of sola scriptura, they do believe, at least dogmatically, in the inerrancy of Scripture, and they do believe Scripture is God-believed, and so on.

So there is enough in the Bible alone, and there's enough even in Roman Catholic history, to show that these are clearly ahistorical and unbiblical and even un-Catholic or anti-Catholic and anti-biblical ideas.

Let's go over these one by one, and first of all, let me also comment that, and perhaps you could respond to this, the more conservative Catholic will say, in defense, this is nothing more than an example of how a Pope can have personal beliefs and make comments that reflect his own ideas that have nothing to do with teaching that is binding on the Church, nothing to do with dogma, so therefore it is not a contradiction to Catholic teaching that is declared ex cathedra or binding as official dogma, and therefore we who are Protestants should not claim that these somehow refute the notion of papal infallibility, because they would view none of these statements as infallible, and they would also say this refutes the left-wing Catholics that are jumping for joy, and especially those who are involved in homosexual activity, who are jumping for joy that their Pope is affirming them, because they would say they too should have no such comfort, because these are not dogmatically binding statements.

Now, first of all, before we.

Even go any further, would you say that I accurately assess that? Yes, yes, yes, but rather, yes, let me just say that that of the Catholic Church asserts about homosexuality as an aggrievous sin, or to speak about the parameters of merit, I think it is just created by the Father before all things, but to be bound by sexuality is clearly defined, or any homosexual acts in marriage, or outside of marriage, or in any form.

And we're going to be returning to this whole concept of.

Papal infallibility, and how this allegedly does not refute that, and that both heirs of the Reformation, who were anathematized by Trent, and also left-wing Catholics, are getting this all wrong, and they are exaggerating the importance of these statements, either those who are vehemently opposed to them, or those who are celebrating them.

But we'll return to that after we examine some of these statements, as to their their faithfulness to the Scriptures. First of all, we have the statement, if we were convinced that they are children of God, things would change quite a bit.

And I'm assuming, from everything else that follows, the Pope is saying that we should view unrepentant homosexuals, those who are actually ongoing in their identity, they're identifying themselves by their sexual desires, and since they are remaining in this state, that we, as Protestants, or those at least who are theologically reformed, biblically faithful, because there are obviously heretics that abound in Protestantism, and even Evangelicalism, that would affirm the idea of a homosexual Christian, which is a damning lie.

But it's the idea that we should view these folks as children of God. Now, let's start with that. Are all people, as I even hear fairly regularly on Fox News, when I hear some of the anchors and guests who identify themselves as Evangelical Christians, I have often heard the phrase, well, it doesn't matter what religion you belong to, we are all children of God.

Is that true? Are we all children of God?

No, no, not at all. And so it is, he gives them the right to become, here in John 8 as well, if you remember the description, love me and believe in me. And the Lord Jesus went on to say that you are of your father the devil.

Only they have the right to become. There are people,.

Obviously, those especially, if you're speaking about Evangelicals, who would make those claims that we're all children of God. They're being improperly taught, I'm assuming, unless they're just being politically correct for the sake of their jobs, or whatever the reason.

But they're misunderstanding, to give it the best spin, if they're just making mistakes in the way they speak. They are giving a wrong, an unbiblical spin on the fact that God has created every human being.

And they will attribute to the fact that he is our creator, and probably most of Christendom, with the exception of some in the Reformed community, that don't believe all men are created in the image of God.

There are those that believe that is only referring to the elect, and specifically, regenerate people who are the elect. But if you were even to take the broader definition, that all humans, whether elect or not, are created in the image of God, that does not mean that God is our father.

That does not mean he is the father of the reprobate, when we clearly see in the scriptures that Jesus has identified some of humanity as being children.

Of the devil. If you could continue. How we are not was meant to go into this offspring, quoting one of the poets, that God has come to say, very clear on this, nor of the flesh, but they were born of God, he was God, and so forth.

And that's why, again, Romans 8, Paul says that those who are in the flesh cannot be very clear that the Son of Man is God.

And I just had an idea that flew out of my head just a second ago.

It'll come back.

I hope so. Or perhaps there's a reason for that. But going back to the statements of Pope Francis that have caused this controversy, which, first of all, obviously they're not a huge shock, because he has revealed his left-wing sentiments, you know, even as soon as he was elected or appointed to the papacy.

So, it's no real surprise, even at one point when he was asked about homosexuality, he said, who am I to judge? Well, first of all, I would say, yeah, you're right, you're no one to judge, because you are not the vicar of Christ, you're not the head of the church.

But he claims to be, so for him to make the statement, who am I to judge, is quite absurd. But the second quote that I would like to have you address under the microscope, homosexual persons have a right to be in a family, and the parents have a right to recognize this son as homosexual, this daughter as homosexual.

Nobody should be thrown out or made miserable over it. Now, that statement, I believe, is a mixture of half-truths and falsehoods. In fact, I'm going to have you go over some of those half-truths and falsehoods when we return from our first break.

And our email address, if anybody would like to join us on the air, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Tony Costa, right after these messages from our sponsors. Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order. I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

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That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Children of God, Adoption, and the Meaning of Family

And if you just tuned us in, Tony Costa, the wonderful voice that you just heard, he is our guest today for the entirety of the program, and he is responding to Pope Francis's recent affirmation, as recorded in a documentary called Francesco, his recent statements affirming same-sex civil unions.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com gives your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous. If question involves a personal and private matter. I remembered now, Tony, what I was going to say when we were reflecting upon Pope Francis's statement, if we were convinced that they, meaning homosexuals, are children of God, things would change quite a bit.

Now, a couple of things I wanted to say is that some people may be either intentionally or just because of poor memory, dropping half, the second half of a very important verse out of the scriptures. Galatians 3 .26 says, for you are all children of God.

And the second part that people are eliminating, through faith in Jesus Christ, or through faith in Christ Jesus. That's an important factor in being a child of God. And obviously, not everybody has faith in Christ Jesus.

And therefore, our Arminian friends have to be very careful when they accuse the Calvinists of allegorizing and spiritualizing everything in scripture, by saying, remember, all is all. When you see all in the Bible, it always means all.

Well, obviously, the strictest of fundamentalists who despise Calvinism would never believe that everyone is a child of God, possessing faith in Christ Jesus. So obviously, that can't mean every single person.

And the other thing that it would completely annihilate, if you were to take this idea that we're all children of God, including unrepentant homosexuals, the whole concept of the doctrine of adoption in Ephesians 1, 3 -5, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love, having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

So obviously, if we were already children of God, before we came to faith in Christ, then this idea of adoption would be meaningless, wouldn't it?

That's right. And that is the, and that is why he is the, and therefore, the language of adoption identified us before Christ, before obedience, among whom we all once lived. And then he goes on to say, we were by nature disobedient.

A statement by Pope Francis I.

Wanted us to examine again. Homosexual persons have a right to be in the family and the parents have a right to recognize this son as homosexual, this daughter as homosexual. Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it.

Now, obviously there are some half-truths in there. We don't, I'm assuming you would agree with me, that if a child, even a teenager or somebody in their 20s or however old they may be living under the roof of their parents, he says to them, I'm really struggling with same-sex attraction.

I need your prayers. I need guidance. I need help in this situation. And of course, situations may vary from household to household when these things occur. They may even say that they're involved in the physical activity and whether or not that automatically means they should be removed from the household, that's something between that family and biblically faithful elders of a church.

But we are not saying that parents should hate their children that are involved in either homosexual desire or activity, that they should necessarily be banished from the family. And I think that there, as I just hinted at, I think that there are occasions when, especially if an older child is being a horrible influence on younger children, where this person, if he is unrepentant, should be demanded to leave the household as long as they were old enough to fend for themselves and so on.

But of course, I think that no parent should allow homosexual activity to be going on under their roof. So you do have a mixture there. You have half-truths in this misleading statement. But the thing that is really, I think, the most significant part of this statement is, nobody should be thrown out or made miserable over it.

Should not sin make us miserable?

Certainly, if they're old enough, then not condone this behavior. I think Francis is not being very clear on this with our children because...

In fact, we have to go to our midway break right now, Tony, and I do want to revisit this a couple of sentences. If anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

This is our longer than normal break in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break so that they can air their own public service announcements and other things that localize this show to Lake City, Florida, which is a requirement of the FCC.

So, please be patient with us and use this time wisely. While they are airing, Grace Life Radio, that is, is airing their own local announcements, we are airing our globally heard commercials, and I would strongly ask you and urge you, please, to write down as much of the information as you can, provided by as many of our advertisers as you can, and respond to these ads, either by purchasing what they're selling or making use of the services, or at least by responding to them and thanking them for sponsoring this show.

We depend on our advertisers to exist. We need the that come in through these advertisements. So, please try to patronize our advertisers as much as you can, and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Dr. Costa at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these.

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co-elder, Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

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That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting, I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter. I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community. This trial includes bi-weekly issues of World Magazine, on-scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.

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