November 18, 2016 Show: A Discussion with Summer White of “Sheologians”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host. Good.

Afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this 18th day of November 2016.

Growing Up as James White’s Daughter

Summer white is that a popular wine for women that comes in a box. Is it a trendy color in the world of fashion? Is it the daughter of a world-renowned theologian and apologist or is it a sheologian?

It's all of the above or should I say she is all of the above and it's my honor and privilege. After years of knowing her and seeing her grow up for the first time ever to interview on iron sharpens iron Summer white host of the sheologians podcast and blog and it's a delight to have you on the program today.

Summer white.

Thanks for having me.

Yes, and in fact, this is actually I believe the first time I am hearing your voice since Standing in the lobby of the Huntington townhouse on Long Island when you were Visiting during one of your dad's debates.

I think it may have been yes. I don't know if it was with Peter Stravinsky's or with Robertson. Remember that and I have Communicated with you via email and Facebook and things like that, but I have not heard your voice since then and I I just have to ask you.

I know I brought this up a couple of times on Facebook. But do you remember nagging me to repeat the word coffee over and over again because you just thought it was a hysterical, New York pronunciation of that word.

It is and I think it's enchanting and I love my New York friends accent and you're your laugh is obviously. You know legend. There it is there it is. Yeah, I mean, I'm really just in this to get to talk to you because it's been so long since.

Let's see didn't you pick me up from the airport when I was like eight years old and. Was that the time we drove around New York City in a limo?

Yes. In fact, I picked at your dad and your mom and your dad did not know.

That.

I was picking you up at the hotel in a stretch limo. Yeah, and I Believe I had the limo driver lower the window when he pulled up at James and say totus to us which is the phrase totally yours that John Paul to the Pope had on his Costume there.

That meant basically a devotion to Mary. Just a little inside joke between your father and I. And then. When we went into Manhattan We went to the Jekyll and Hyde's restaurant.

I.

And I remember seeing a famous Hollywood actress eating in there when we were there that day.

And.

Then we went to the World Trade Center. We went to the observation deck and the World Trade Center and. And I remember actually thinking this was only about. I thought. I don't think it was much longer than a year before.

The attack on the Twin Towers. I don't think it was. Yeah, and I can remember thinking in my head while I was looking out that window. That there was there will be nothing that could bring this building down.

I remember for some reason think and.

You sound like the men who built the Titanic?

Right. That's right. That's what they. The unsinkable ship. But it was such a fun time I remember. And you and your brother and your parents and. So well, tell us first of all what it was like growing up in such a hateful bigoted mean-spirited family.

Right, it was horrible. My childhood was awful was filled with traveling the world and getting to meet Christians all over the place and Being catechized in my church and it was the patriarchy was overwhelming.

We were forced fed taco time every day and.

No, you know what it wasn't taco time it was Taco Bell for sure. Oh really? Um, yeah for sure and don't tell but my mom is a huge fan of Taco Bell. I had a lot of crunch wraps with cream growing up. No, you know I get that question a lot, you know What's it like being James White's daughter and the simple answer is, you know, I don't really know What's it like being your father's daughter or your father's son?

Because you know, it's all I've ever known and I think I had to get a little bit older to discover that it wasn't exactly Normal. You know because growing up you just you know what, you know, and that's it but I think the coolest thing About well, there are a lot of cool things.

That's hard to answer I could be here all day, but one of the coolest things about growing up You know with the family I grew up in and the the church that I grew up in is that just everything it was like a very holistic like Everything was always brought back to Jesus.

Like there was never really anything that I faced like whether it was Biology at school or having to learn my multiplication times tables. That like didn't have anything to do with Christ and being a Christian.

And you know, so I have people ask me How are you gonna, you know raise your kids? Like like you were raised and what catechism are you using and and kind of they want like material they want like physical Material, what are you going to use?

To raise your kids to model after your parents, but at the end of the day like it really wasn't about I Think the magical thing is that it wasn't really about what materials were used. It wasn't really about Like a specific we use this catechism or not this catechism.

It was really just about The Christian worldview and a gospel lens was how we viewed everything. And so that's something that I want to bring to my kids and when I raise them Is just to remember that yes, like family time is important and I do spend time going through a catechism with my kids, but Really having that Kind of everything has to do with the gospel thing.

That's one of my favorite things about how I was raised. That's definitely something I want to do for my kids and you know, I do realize that it's strange that You know by the age of 12. I attended all kinds of Debates and I traveled all over the place and I'd met all these Christians from different churches.

But I didn't know that when I was a kid, you know, it was just part of life. And so now looking back on I can see what a blessing it was, but it was really the day-to-day Christian worldview soaking in everything that I think.

Yeah, and in fact, I forgot to announce that Our guest today summer white, although when I first met her, I think she was I don't know eight or nine. Yes She is now a mother herself of two beautiful little daughters one is Clementine and one is January and How old how old is Clementine now?

Wow and I tell you you have to I think you have to write a book about your Conversations with Clementine because they they are truly hysterical. I think that she is going to Have a career in comedy writing because she is absolutely hysterical.

I mean, I actually I literally find myself laughing Roaring out loud alone in my apartment fear and fearing. I'm gonna wake up my landlords when I.

Yeah, I'm pretty much never bored when she's around. So yeah, she's a hot mess and I love it and.

Has your dad. Is he still punkle or is he finally grandpa?

You know by the time she was 16 months old she could say she could pronounce fictitious for example, but for some reason if you told her to say grandpa it would come out punkle and My mom just loved it so much.

My dad had to embrace it. I mean, he has been waiting for so long to be called grandpa. He was so excited and of course, she couldn't say it. She could say everything else, but she couldn't say grandpa and so.

One day it clicked with her and she said grandpa and my mom freaked out and she was like, no, no, no, no. No, it's punkle. It's gonna be punkle forever and She convinced Clementine that it's actually just punkle.

So. And my dad has wanted to be grandpa forever and now he will never be.

James White, Apologetics, and the World of Debates

Well, and just in case there are a handful of people listening who don't know who summers father is because I I Have been noticing that I do get new listeners every week almost on the iron sharpens iron and or at least Ones that I've never heard from before and some of them are not even Christians.

So Summers dad is dr. James are white. He is the founder of Alpha and Omega ministries. He is globally known as a force to be reckoned with In the arena of apologetics and debate. I know of no other debater alive on the planet Earth Who I would prefer defending what I believe against the opponents of Reformed Protestant Christianity and even more specifically Reformed Baptist theology.

And He has written. I don't know how many books by now, but is it 30 or something like that? Well over a hundred public moderated debates. Yeah, and they started out being almost exclusively with Roman Catholics.

I I did ten of his I arranged I should say ten of his Catholic debates. I also arranged a debate with a one miss Pentecostal that your dad had. I Had your father's first debate with a Muslim I arranged on Long Island, although he doesn't count that one because because it was a debate when he knew very little about Islam and he had to defend a Major tenant of Christianity.

So he defended the deity of Christ against Hamza Abdul Malik and You know, that's right you were there.

Yeah, and.

And Hamza has since even morphed into a different kind of a Muslim he's a Quran only Muslim, which is a very tiny minority of Muslims. And I arranged a debate between your dad and Barry Lynn the Director of President of Americans United for separation of church and state with who is defending he was defending homosexuality as being Compatible with biblical Christianity and of course your father was opposing that very right very strongly and.

Wow.

And.

And so you remember Barry Lynn's meltdown from the Pulpit at the end when he didn't even Bother to give his final summation. He just scolded the audience and called the audience bigots and hateful People and said we should be ashamed of ourselves.

And then he went on to threaten a lawsuit Against your father if he were to distribute the video and I got your dad in touch with the Alliance Defense Fund which I think is called Alliance defending freedom today and yes, and they Represented your dad and the case was thrown out because Barry Lynn and his attorney didn't even show up at the hearing.

So.

And let's see a well a number of other debates on all different issues even in-house debates. I I arranged the.

Now.

Infamous debate that your dad had with my friend Bill Shishko on infant baptism. Well, you've got negative feedback for that.

Oh, you know my Presbyterian friends love to tell me that my dad lost to Bill Shishko. Oh, please. It's okay. It's okay. It's all right. Everyone's okay. I.

Love Bill, he's one of my closest friends, but I could hardly say that your dad lost that debate but I better I better keep my mouth shut because Still Bill is still a very good friend is in touch with me regularly and maybe listen.

In fact Bill is going I'm sorry. Well, Bill is actually going to be hosting his own 90-minute show that I sold the airtime to him for on a local Long Island station not local to me, but WLIE radio in Long Island, so I will be making announcements about that.

He has a weekly 90-minute show every Saturday 12 p .m To 1 30 p .m. Called a visit to the pastor's study and you'll be able to hear that anywhere in the world via live-streaming as well. As on Long Island in the New York tri-state area on 540 a .m.

On the dial. But I will announce to you folks listening how you can listen to it over the internet as soon as I have all that information In front of me. I wasn't expecting to bring that up today, but.

You're welcome.

Let me Announce our email address for our listeners if they would like to join us as well with a question. It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris.

Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and.

The Gospel in a Christian Home and the Nature of Conversion

You know.

We who are reformed Baptists typically have a lot more of an emphasis on a conversion experience in the life of a child. To deem them as a brother or sister in Christ as a truly born-again Regenerant person as a proper candidate for baptism and so on.

But but being raised in a Christian home it may be more difficult for you to Trace the the journey that you went through to that that dramatic moment of actually becoming born again. Some people especially Those who have been raised as in a Christian home a solid Christian home a very actively involved Christian home.

You might not remember a time when you were an Enemy of Christ or an opposition of the gospel, but maybe you do tell us something about your own childhood and as far as your understanding of The gospel and of your need for Christ.

And if you even know of an approximate time anyway in your life when a light Switch went on by the grace of God and you realized I need Christ as my Savior. I need to repent. I need to follow him and You know when you cried out to the Lord, etc.

Right. So yeah, you know, I know in some Baptist circles not particularly reformed Baptist But in a lot of Baptist circles, there is a lot of emphasis on That moment, you know this big bright shiny moment that you had and you had this like, I don't know conversion experience.

I've heard a few of those stories and I just haven't related to any of them for me, you know and then a lot of Conversations and dialogue if I get into people will tell me well, you know, you're only a Christian.

You only have the faith that you have Because of how you were raised and They're saying it as an insult, but it's not an in. Being raised in a Christian home and having the Christian faith handed down to you is a privilege.

And I think we need to take hold of that and not allow Anyone to look down on our faith if our parents have the same faith. Because ultimately it's a blessing if your children Are saved and so I hear that one a lot, but I think there was definitely a time period in my life when My faith became my own it became more than Just this kind of intellectual faith that I had so growing up in Christian home I always would have consented if you had asked, you know, is the Bible true did Jesus really exist?

Was Jesus God, you know intellectually I knew all of those things and I believed the Bible, but you know, so do demons. It wasn't a saving faith. It wasn't A faith that had changed my heart always and I knew that there was also never a time when I didn't have a saving faith that I thought No, I'm fine.

I go to church. Everything is good. I just think the kind of theology that I was brought up with would not have allowed me to deceive myself like that Err to believe that my work could count Before God and so there was definitely a time in my life and and I can I can kind of look back on the time I can't I don't have a bright shiny moment.

I don't have like this experience. That was singular it was really a brokenness over my sin and a brokenness over my position before God but I had never experienced before and it was true like Just looking at myself and saying like wow, this is this is disgusting.

This is filthy rags. This is bad. There's nothing I can do and obviously Into my own depravity first for me to even be able to see it. And then through that season You know, I think I experienced true repentance and obviously repentance is a lifelong thing that we have to do to a saving faith.

There was that season where it became my own not just an intellectual consent. But you know a new heart and like actual true desires To glorify God as opposed to maybe check off some works boxes. Like I go to church and I don't use certain Language and you know, whatever else you can do to dress yourself up to make yourself feel holy and so you know, like I said, it really wasn't a Moment in time.

It was I think it was a season of repentance that God granted me and just gave me New sight and nothing has been the same since.

Well, praise God for that. Yes, I strongly disagree with Some of my Baptist brethren who say that if you do not know the exact date of The day that you were born again, you're not born again. I think that's an absurd Litmus test because yes.

Yeah, especially when you're talking about somebody raised in a Christian home. That has been by I mean this doesn't always happen. The children of believers aren't always preserved from overt rebellion, but very often they are by God's mercy and And for somebody who is been preserved from that open really a scandalous type of behavior.

It is a it may be a harder thing to determine when that happened and I Could still vividly remember when I was a new believer I was telling a a Christian girl about my testimony and She was born and raised in an Orthodox Presbyterian home and she said to me, you know Sometimes I wish that I was not raised in a Christian home so my testimony would be more compelling about the and and more.

You know.

Fabulous more Provocative more amazing when I witness to people so that they can see the grace of God in my life and how he transformed me and I. And I told this young lady I said, I think that's absolutely ridiculous because Because it's it's just as much of a miracle that God preserves someone in and in godliness and Prevents them especially in the 21st century.

The the miraculous work of God to preserve a person and protect them from venturing out into the rebellion of the world. That is so much more easy in this day and age because of the media and the easy access to ungodly things and so on.

So I.

Think I mean it kind of misses the point of you know, the fact that whether or not you Lived a life of just complete open rebellion and whatever and came to God or whether or not you Lived a life of faithful church attendance.

That was hypocrisy both are Gonna earn you the same place in eternity to save you from it and you know. It's not really apples to oranges because at the end of the day, you know It's like when the parable of the shepherd who went out for for the one sheep and left the 99 behind.

You know, I mean, I understand that because sometimes you know I do get this question a lot like tell me your conversion story and I always wonder are they expecting, you know Lights coming through the clouds like what do they want?

What are they hoping they're going to hear because I I don't have that but what I do have is the fact that I was a wretched sinner whether or not it was You know whether or not the things I did were as open and rebellious as anyone else.

It was all filthy and I was going to go to the same place As any unrepentant sinner. So yeah, I don't I don't buy that at all. And I think it totally undermines just how Abhorrent sin is to God whether or not it's open sin or hidden sin.

I I personally I mean hypocrisy is A big deal and we heard you just talk about it a lot and I think a lot of people that that grow up in the church. They might be clean-cut on the outside, but it's a lot of hypocrisy.

And I know you know, I could say that of myself at one time. So anyway, sorry, there's no strobe lights and my conversion. Really? I'm really not. Sorry.

Well you what you just described reminds me of a very excellent book by the late Jerry Bridges called Respectable sins. Yes, and I actually had the privilege of interviewing him on that Years ago. Wow and that on the old program.

And I have to have eventually all of those old programs the mp3s posted on my website. My webmaster has enough to deal with right now without going back into the ancient days of the beginnings of iron sharpens iron your dad by the way was the very first guest that I interviewed on iron sharpens iron and Well, I had The went on my own as an independent ad agent.

Leaving WMCA and which was a Still is a station within the largest Christian network in the world radio network in the world Salem media and I had already tasted what it was like to host a talk show because the In-house talk show host Andy Anderson who is now with the Lord.

I used to get him a lot of guests and If you ever heard a reformed person on a show is because I got him there and I always wrote all of Andy's questions for him. When I got him a guest including your father and Danny began to realize wow, this guy really is capable of doing this.

So he started to request when he When he would go on vacation or if he was sick. He would say why don't you have Chris Arnson fill in for me? And then when he passed away, I believe of stomach cancer.

Which was quite a shock to many of us because he kept a lot of things secretive about his symptoms and so on. He they had me for the first two weeks after his passing I hosted the program for him and in fact your dad was a guest again a couple of times during that two-week period and Then when I left WMCA I was driving around saw a little tiny Christian radio station in Babylon, Long Island pulled into the parking lot and Went to the door and said to the general manager that I'd like to sell Advertising for them as an independent ad agent.

She said wow, do you you have a good voice? Have you ever hosted a talk show? I said, yeah, I used to fill in for the talk show host at WMCA. Well, we have the two o 'clock slot open you want it. That's exactly how it happened.

So, uh, and then she she initially hated the show. Because she said all you do is talk. I want you to play music and I said, well, that's not I'm not a DJ that's not what I'm about and I don't like the music you play anyway, and So she at first was she hated my show.

The fact that I was the topics were very often offensive to modern-day evangelicals and Fringe charismatics and so on and she would get really upset with me. But then when she started to realize because they were live-streaming that that we were getting phone calls from all over the United States and even England and Ireland and Sweden she Said this is incredible.

So she fell in love with my show after that and right the rest is history. Amazing. Well, we do have a listener, but who has a question for you. I'm gonna take his question after our first break. So pastor Sterling in Greensboro, North Carolina.

If you could be patient, we'll get to your question after this station break. So don't go away. We are going to be right back after these messages with summer white of sheologians Chris Arnson here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia.

And here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why hi.

I'm James White of Alphan Omega ministries. I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh Bison praise mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Balcom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory.

For more details go to g3 conference .com. That's g3 conference .com.

Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

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Faith finances and generosity. That's the private story. Welcome back. This is Chris Ornson. If you just tuned us in today our guest for the full two hours is summer white who is the daughter of dr James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and she is co-host of the blog and podcast she elogians and.

We're gonna hear more about that and how you can listen to that and also read the blog in a moment. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for summer. Our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Chris a RNZ and at gmail .com and we have a listener. Pastor. I usually don't give people's full names. But I figured since he is a pastor and has given me the name and location of his church I might as well give him a plug.

For that. His name is pastor sterling vander worker and he is the pastor of shepherds fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina, and He says I love your dad's ministry and look forward to sending a link to your program to my wife and two daughters.

My question is since dad's like me often embarrass their daughters enough to get the proverbial eye roll. What does dr. James White do to get the eye roll from you?

I.

Have to pretend like he's annoying. Because he's my dad, but really he's like the coolest dad that's ever. Dad is like he's so cool. We did so much fun stuff when we were little and he always tried to involve us and.

He's like Santa at Christmas time except better. So, you know, yeah, he does a lot of eye roll things like I don't know he drinks skim milk. Who drinks skim milk.

I would never have guessed.

I.

Know it's gross, right? You know for the most part I have. I mean for the complete part like he's the least embarrassing dad in the universe I'm pretty sure so don't tell him.

Well, I your dad has gotten the eye roll for me the number of times I can vividly remember. I can vividly remember being invited to someone's home on a beautiful summer afternoon for lunch after his morning service when he was speaking at a church in Suffolk County and we were sitting on the back porch enjoying the weather.

And. The wife came out on the back porch and said hey, it's such a beautiful summer day. Why don't we have for lunch a nice delicious cold and refreshing fruit salad? Your father. Your father had the look of panic on his face like he had just heard that the United States got involved in World War three.

And then there was. You could sense the tension and the the the dead silence hanging there in The in the hot summer air. And the wife the wife said or I could order a pizza. Your father just totally cheered up after that.

I'm sure he loves me telling that story. We have a listener all the way in Slovenia. Joe in Slovenia Says, please ask sisters summer to address what she thinks is the most important theological topic or issue for women today.

Feminism, Womanhood, and the Image of God

Very good question. Oh, wow. That's not a tall order at all. You know, okay, it's the issue of feminism. Which is not on the face of it theological topic except that If you're going to deal with the presuppositions inherent within feminism Then you are dealing with theological topics.

And so that's one of the things I like to talk about because It's it's confusing so we are currently living in a generation of third-wave feminists there have been the first and second wave before them and what's confusing about feminism is that There are many points in which Feminists are right feminists in the turn of the century.

You know what they really wanted was Women to have the right to vote. Nothing inherently wrong with that. They were majorly against Pornography they were the biggest group that fought the rise of pornography in the media.

There's nothing wrong with that. Obviously they were against the prohibition of alcohol. I don't appreciate that and Then you had your second wave feminists which were responsible for what we what happened in the 60s the sexual revolution.

The ultimately ended in the ruling in 1973. Known as Roe v. Wade that allowed for the Holocaust in the womb that we see today that if you look up feminism and just the basic definition it's the idea that Women have as much worth or value as men.

But that's really not what feminism that we know today that we see in the culture is. So we can just take it back to Scripture obviously. The the Bible is Radical and it's treatment of women, especially for the time that no honest person can read the scriptures and believe that there's any Christian basis Christian teaching that Women are less valuable than men.

So there's really nothing that needs to be fought against there. It's really how it's lived out practically in life. So we know that men and women have different roles. They've been given.

I.

Mean we've been commissioned Differently in different ways. God created two genders and they are not the same. They are not a mirror image of each other. They are in Opposite to each other and they're complementary.

So I think for women one of the most important things to really get a grasp around theologically is What what are women for? What did God make women for if you're Unmarried if you're single if you're a mom if you're not a mom, you're a woman.

You're a Christian. What does that mean? What does embracing being a woman mean at whatever stage in life that you are? And there's so much confusion about that because the world sends one message and then the church I think oftentimes tries to like swing the pendulum so hard the other way that You know, they end up trying to make us all dress like we're in Jane Austen novels and No, I'm serious it really happens.

Yes, I know. I've seen I see it really you've seen it. It's terrifying. And so I think we're living in a time and joy and I did an episode on that. We interviewed Rebecca Merkel who wrote a book on this topic and we have a whole episode on it and I highly recommend it if you Female or male and you're completely unsure what women are for but really once you get that under your footing I think a lot of fears.