November 18, 2016 Show: A Discussion with Summer White of “Sheologians”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

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Now here's our host.

Good.

Afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday

on this 18th day of November 2016.

Summer white is that a popular wine for women that comes in a box.

Is it a trendy color in the world of fashion?

Is it the daughter of a world -renowned theologian and apologist or is it a

sheologian?

It's all of the above or should I say she is all of the above and it's my honor and privilege.

After years of knowing her and seeing her grow up for the first time

ever to interview on iron sharpens iron Summer white host of

the sheologians podcast and blog and it's a delight to have you on the program today.

Summer white.

Thanks for having me.

Yes, and in fact, this is actually I believe the first time I am hearing

your voice since Standing in the lobby of the Huntington townhouse on Long Island

when you were Visiting during one of your dad's debates.

I think it may have been yes.

I don't know if it was with Peter Stravinsky's or with Robertson.

Remember that and I have Communicated with you via email and Facebook and things like that, but I

have not heard your voice since then and I I just have to ask you.

I know I brought this up a couple of times on Facebook.

But do you remember nagging me to repeat the word coffee over and over again because you just

thought it was a hysterical, New York pronunciation of that word.

It is and I think it's enchanting and I love my New York friends accent and you're

your laugh is obviously.

You know legend.

There it is there it is.

Yeah, I mean, I'm really just in this to get to talk to you because it's been so long since.

Let's see didn't you pick me up from the airport when I was like eight years old and.

Was that the time we drove around New York City in a limo?

Yes.

In fact, I picked at your dad and your mom and your dad did not know.

That.

I was picking you up at the hotel in a stretch limo.

Yeah, and I Believe I had the limo driver lower the window when he

pulled up at James and say totus to us which is the phrase totally yours

that John Paul to the Pope had on his Costume there.

That meant basically a devotion to Mary.

Just a little inside joke between your father and I.

And then.

When we went into Manhattan We went to the Jekyll and

Hyde's restaurant.

I.

And I remember seeing a famous Hollywood actress eating in there when we were there that day.

And.

Then we went to the World Trade Center.

We went to the observation deck and the World Trade Center and.

And I remember actually thinking this was only about.

I thought.

I don't think it was much longer than a year before.

The attack on the Twin Towers.

I don't think it was.

Yeah, and I can remember thinking in my head while I was looking out that

window.

That there was there will be nothing that could bring this building down.

I remember for some reason think and.

You sound like the men who built the Titanic?

Right.

That's right.

That's what they.

The unsinkable ship.

But it was such a fun time I remember.

And you and your brother and your parents and.

So well, tell us first of all what it was like growing up in such a hateful bigoted

mean -spirited family.

Right, it was horrible.

My childhood was awful was filled with traveling the world and getting to meet Christians all over the

place and Being catechized in my church and it was

the patriarchy was overwhelming.

We were forced fed taco time every day and.

No, you know what it wasn't taco time it was Taco Bell for sure.

Oh really?

Um, yeah for sure and don't tell but my mom is a huge fan of Taco Bell.

I had a lot of crunch wraps with cream growing up.

No, you know I get that question a lot, you know What's it like being James White's daughter and the

simple answer is, you know, I don't really know What's it like being your father's daughter or your father's son?

Because you know, it's all I've ever known and I think I had to get a little bit older to

discover that it wasn't exactly Normal.

You know because growing up you just you know what, you know, and that's it but I think the coolest thing

About well, there are a lot of cool things.

That's hard to answer I could be here all day, but one of the coolest things about growing up

You know with the family I grew up in and the the church that I grew up in is that just everything

it was like a very holistic like Everything was always brought back to Jesus.

Like there was never really anything that I faced like whether it was Biology at

school or having to learn my multiplication times tables.

That like didn't have anything to do with Christ and being a Christian.

And you know, so I have people ask me How are you gonna, you know raise your kids?

Like like you were raised and what catechism are you using and and kind of they want like material they

want like physical Material, what are you going to use?

To raise your kids to model after your parents, but at the end of the day like it really wasn't about I

Think the magical thing is that it wasn't really about what materials were used.

It wasn't really about Like a specific we use this catechism or not this catechism.

It was really just about The Christian worldview and a gospel lens was how

we viewed everything.

And so that's something that I want to bring to my kids and when I raise them

Is just to remember that yes, like family time is important and I do spend time going through a catechism with my

kids, but Really having that Kind of everything

has to do with the gospel thing.

That's one of my favorite things about how I was raised.

That's definitely something I want to do for my kids and you know, I do realize that it's strange

that You know by the age of 12.

I attended all kinds of Debates and I traveled all over the place and I'd met all these

Christians from different churches.

But I didn't know that when I was a kid, you know, it was just part of life.

And so now looking back on I can see what a blessing it was, but it was really the day -to -day

Christian worldview soaking in everything that I think.

Yeah, and in fact, I forgot to announce that Our guest today summer white, although when I

first met her, I think she was I don't know eight or nine.

Yes She is now a mother herself of two beautiful

little daughters one is Clementine and one is January and How

old how old is Clementine now?

Wow and I tell you you have to I think you have to write a book about your

Conversations with Clementine because they they are truly hysterical.

I think that she is going to Have a career in comedy writing because she is

absolutely hysterical.

I mean, I actually I literally find myself laughing Roaring out loud alone in my apartment fear and

fearing.

I'm gonna wake up my landlords when I.

Yeah, I'm pretty much never bored when she's around.

So yeah, she's a hot mess and I love it and.

Has your dad.

Is he still punkle or is he finally grandpa?

You know by the time she was 16 months old she could say she could pronounce fictitious

for example, but for some reason if you told her to say grandpa it would come out

punkle and My mom just loved it so much.

My dad had to embrace it.

I mean, he has been waiting for so long to be called grandpa.

He was so excited and of course, she couldn't say it.

She could say everything else, but she couldn't say grandpa and so.

One day it clicked with her and she said grandpa and my mom freaked out and she was like, no, no, no, no.

No, it's punkle.

It's gonna be punkle forever and She convinced Clementine that it's actually just punkle.

So.

And my dad has wanted to be grandpa forever and now he will never be.

Well, and just in case there are a handful of people listening who don't know who summers father

is because I I Have been noticing that I do get new listeners every week almost on the iron

sharpens iron and or at least Ones that I've never heard from before and some of them are not even Christians.

So Summers dad is dr. James are white.

He is the founder of Alpha and Omega ministries.

He is globally known as a force to be reckoned with In the arena

of apologetics and debate.

I know of no other debater alive on the planet Earth Who I would

prefer defending what I believe against the opponents of Reformed

Protestant Christianity and even more specifically Reformed Baptist theology.

And He has written.

I don't know how many books by now, but is it 30 or something like that?

Well over a hundred public moderated debates.

Yeah, and they started out being almost exclusively with Roman Catholics.

I I did ten of his I arranged I should say ten of his Catholic debates.

I also arranged a debate with a one miss Pentecostal that your dad had.

I Had your father's first debate with a Muslim I arranged

on Long Island, although he doesn't count that one because because it was a debate when he

knew very little about Islam and he had to defend a Major tenant of Christianity.

So he defended the deity of Christ against Hamza Abdul Malik and

You know, that's right you were there.

Yeah, and.

And Hamza has since even morphed into a different kind of a Muslim he's a Quran only Muslim,

which is a very tiny minority of Muslims.

And I arranged a debate between your dad and Barry Lynn

the Director of President of Americans United for separation of church and state with who is

defending he was defending homosexuality as being Compatible with

biblical Christianity and of course your father was opposing that very right very strongly

and.

Wow.

And.

And so you remember Barry Lynn's meltdown from the Pulpit at the end when he didn't even

Bother to give his final summation.

He just scolded the audience and called the audience bigots and hateful People and said we should be

ashamed of ourselves.

And then he went on to threaten a lawsuit Against your father if he were to distribute the video

and I got your dad in touch with the Alliance Defense Fund which I think is called

Alliance defending freedom today and yes, and they Represented your

dad and the case was thrown out because Barry Lynn and his attorney didn't even show up at the hearing.

So.

And let's see a well a number of other debates on all different issues even in -house debates.

I I arranged the.

Now.

Infamous debate that your dad had with my friend Bill Shishko on infant baptism.

Well, you've got negative feedback for that.

Oh, you know my Presbyterian friends love to tell me that my dad lost to Bill Shishko.

Oh, please.

It's okay.

It's okay.

It's all right.

Everyone's okay.

I.

Love Bill, he's one of my closest friends, but I could hardly say that your dad lost that debate

but I better I better keep my mouth shut because Still Bill is still a very good friend is in touch with me regularly

and maybe listen.

In fact Bill is going I'm sorry.

Well, Bill is actually going to be hosting his own 90 -minute show that I sold the

airtime to him for on a local Long Island station not local to me, but

WLIE radio in Long Island, so I will be making announcements about that.

He has a weekly 90 -minute show every Saturday 12 p .m To 1 30 p .m. Called a visit to the

pastor's study and you'll be able to hear that anywhere in the world via live -streaming as well.

As on Long Island in the New York tri -state area on 540 a .m.

On the dial.

But I will announce to you folks listening how you can listen to it over the internet as soon as I have all that

information In front of me.

I wasn't expecting to bring that up today, but.

You're welcome.

Let me Announce our email address for our listeners if they would like to join us as well

with a question.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris.

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and.

You know.

We who are reformed Baptists typically have a lot more

of an emphasis on a conversion experience in the life of a

child.

To deem them as a brother or sister in Christ as a truly born -again

Regenerant person as a proper candidate for baptism and so on.

But but being raised in a Christian home it may be more difficult for you to

Trace the the journey that you went through to that that dramatic moment of actually

becoming born again.

Some people especially Those who have been raised as in a Christian home a solid

Christian home a very actively involved Christian home.

You might not remember a time when you were an Enemy of Christ or an opposition of the

gospel, but maybe you do tell us something about your own childhood and as far as your

understanding of The gospel and of your need for Christ.

And if you even know of an approximate time anyway in your life when a light Switch went on

by the grace of God and you realized I need Christ as my Savior.

I need to repent.

I need to follow him and You know when you cried out to the Lord, etc.

Right.

So yeah, you know, I know in some Baptist circles not particularly reformed Baptist But in

a lot of Baptist circles, there is a lot of emphasis on That moment, you know this big bright

shiny moment that you had and you had this like, I don't know conversion experience.

I've heard a few of those stories and I just haven't related to any of them for me,

you know and then a lot of Conversations and dialogue if I get into people will tell me

well, you know, you're only a Christian.

You only have the faith that you have Because of how you were raised and They're

saying it as an insult, but it's not an in.

Being raised in a Christian home and having the Christian faith handed down to you is a

privilege.

And I think we need to take hold of that and not allow Anyone to look down on our faith if

our parents have the same faith.

Because ultimately it's a blessing if your children Are saved and so I hear that one a lot, but

I think there was definitely a time period in my life when

My faith became my own it became more than Just this

kind of intellectual faith that I had so growing up in Christian home I always would have consented if you

had asked, you know, is the Bible true did Jesus really exist?

Was Jesus God, you know intellectually I knew all of those things and I believed the Bible, but you know, so do

demons.

It wasn't a saving faith.

It wasn't A faith that had changed my heart always and I knew that

there was also never a time when I didn't have a saving faith

that I thought No, I'm fine.

I go to church.

Everything is good.

I just think the kind of theology that I was brought up with would not have allowed me to deceive myself like

that Err to believe that my work could count

Before God and so there was definitely a time in my life and and I can I can kind of look back on the

time I can't I don't have a bright shiny moment.

I don't have like this experience.

That was singular it was really a

brokenness over my sin and a brokenness over my position before God but I had never

experienced before and it was true like Just looking at myself and saying like wow,

this is this is disgusting.

This is filthy rags.

This is bad.

There's nothing I can do and obviously

Into my own depravity first for me to even be able to see it.

And then through that season You know, I think I experienced true repentance and

obviously repentance is a lifelong thing that we have to do to a saving faith.

There was that season where it became

my own not just an intellectual consent.

But you know a new heart and like actual true desires To glorify

God as opposed to maybe check off some works boxes.

Like I go to church and I don't use certain Language and you know, whatever else you can do to dress

yourself up to make yourself feel holy and so you know, like I said, it really

wasn't a Moment in time.

It was I think it was a season of repentance that God granted me and just gave me New sight

and nothing has been the same since.

Well, praise God for that.

Yes, I strongly disagree with Some of my Baptist brethren who say that if you

do not know the exact date of The day that you were born again, you're not

born again.

I think that's an absurd Litmus test because yes.

Yeah, especially when you're talking about somebody raised in a Christian home.

That has been by I mean this doesn't always happen.

The children of believers aren't always preserved from overt rebellion, but very often

they are by God's mercy and And for somebody who is been

preserved from that open really a scandalous type of behavior.

It is a it may be a harder thing to determine when that happened and

I Could still vividly remember when I was a new believer I was telling

a a Christian girl about my testimony and She

was born and raised in an Orthodox Presbyterian home and she said to me, you know Sometimes I

wish that I was not raised in a Christian home so my testimony would be

more compelling about the and and more.

You know.

Fabulous more Provocative more amazing when I witness to

people so that they can see the grace of God in my life and how he transformed me and I.

And I told this young lady I said, I think that's absolutely ridiculous because

Because it's it's just as much of a miracle that God preserves someone in

and in godliness and Prevents them especially in the 21st

century.

The the miraculous work of God to preserve a person and protect

them from venturing out into the rebellion of the world.

That is so much more easy in this day and age because of the media and the easy access to

ungodly things and so on.

So I.

Think I mean it kind of misses the point of you know, the fact that whether or not you

Lived a life of just complete open rebellion and whatever and came to God or whether or not you

Lived a life of faithful church attendance.

That was hypocrisy both are Gonna earn you the same place in

eternity to save you from

it and you know.

It's not really apples to oranges because at the end of the day, you know It's like when the parable of the shepherd who

went out for for the one sheep and left the 99 behind.

You know, I mean, I understand that because sometimes you know I do get this question a lot like tell me your conversion

story and I always wonder are they expecting, you know Lights coming through the clouds like what

do they want?

What are they hoping they're going to hear because I I don't have that but what I do have is the fact that

I was a wretched sinner whether or not it was You know whether or not the things I did were as

open and rebellious as anyone else.

It was all filthy and I was going to go to the same place As any unrepentant sinner.

So yeah, I don't I don't buy that at all.

And I think it totally undermines just how Abhorrent sin is to

God whether or not it's open sin or hidden sin.

I I personally I mean hypocrisy is A big deal and we heard you just talk about it a lot and I

think a lot of people that that grow up in the church.

They might be clean -cut on the outside, but it's a lot of hypocrisy.

And I know you know, I could say that of myself at one time.

So anyway, sorry, there's no strobe lights and my conversion.

Really?

I'm really not.

Sorry.

Well you what you just described reminds me of a very excellent book by the late

Jerry Bridges called Respectable sins.

Yes, and I actually had the privilege of interviewing him on that Years ago.

Wow and that on the old program.

And I have to have eventually all of those old programs the

mp3s posted on my website.

My webmaster has enough to deal with right now without going back into the ancient days of the

beginnings of iron sharpens iron your dad by the way was the very first guest that

I interviewed on iron sharpens iron and

Well, I had The went on my own as an independent ad agent.

Leaving WMCA and which was a Still is a station within the

largest Christian network in the world radio network in the world Salem media and

I had already tasted what it was like to host a

talk show because the In -house talk show host Andy Anderson who is now with the Lord.

I used to get him a lot of guests and If you ever heard a reformed person on a show is

because I got him there and I always wrote all of Andy's questions for him.

When I got him a guest including your father and Danny began to

realize wow, this guy really is capable of doing this.

So he started to request when he When he would go on vacation or if he was sick.

He would say why don't you have Chris Arnson fill in for me?

And then when he passed away, I believe of stomach cancer.

Which was quite a shock to many of us because he kept a lot of things secretive about his

symptoms and so on.

He they had me for the first two weeks after his passing I hosted

the program for him and in fact your dad was a guest again a couple of times

during that two -week period and Then when I left WMCA I was driving

around saw a little tiny Christian radio station in Babylon, Long Island pulled

into the parking lot and Went to the door and said to the general manager

that I'd like to sell Advertising for them as an independent ad agent.

She said wow, do you you have a good voice?

Have you ever hosted a talk show?

I said, yeah, I used to fill in for the talk show host at WMCA.

Well, we have the two o 'clock slot open you want it.

That's exactly how it happened.

So, uh, and then she she initially hated the show.

Because she said all you do is talk.

I want you to play music and I said, well, that's not I'm not a DJ that's not what I'm about and I don't like the music you

play anyway, and So she at first was she hated my show.

The fact that I was the topics were very often offensive to modern -day

evangelicals and Fringe charismatics and so on and she would get

really upset with me.

But then when she started to realize because they were live -streaming that that we were getting phone calls from

all over the United States and even England and Ireland and Sweden she Said this

is incredible.

So she fell in love with my show after that and right the rest is history.

Amazing.

Well, we do have a listener, but who has a question for you.

I'm gonna take his question after our first break.

So pastor Sterling in Greensboro, North Carolina.

If you could be patient, we'll get to your question after this station break.

So don't go away.

We are going to be right back after these messages with summer white of sheologians

Chris Arnson here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia.

And here's my friend.

Dr. James White to tell you why hi.

I'm James White of Alphan Omega ministries.

I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh Bison praise mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Balcom Conrad and Bayway

Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars

of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory.

For more details go to g3 conference .com.

That's g3 conference .com.

Thanks, James.

Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.

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That's the private story.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Ornson.

If you just tuned us in today our guest for the full two hours is summer white who is the daughter

of dr James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and she is co -host of the blog and podcast

she elogians and.

We're gonna hear more about that and how you can listen to that and also read the blog in a moment.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for summer.

Our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris a RNZ and at gmail .com and we have a listener.

Pastor.

I usually don't give people's full names.

But I figured since he is a pastor and has given me the name and location of his church I might as well give him a

plug.

For that.

His name is pastor sterling vander worker and he is the pastor of shepherds fellowship in

Greensboro, North Carolina, and He says I love your dad's ministry and look forward to sending a

link to your program to my wife and two daughters.

My question is since dad's like me often embarrass their daughters enough to get the

proverbial eye roll.

What does dr. James White do to get the eye roll from you?

I.

Have to pretend like he's annoying.

Because he's my dad, but really he's like the coolest dad that's ever.

Dad is like he's so cool.

We did so much fun stuff when we were little and he always tried to involve us and.

He's like Santa at Christmas time except better.

So, you know, yeah, he does a lot of eye roll things like I don't know he drinks skim

milk.

Who drinks skim milk.

I would never have guessed.

I.

Know it's gross, right?

You know for the most part I have.

I mean for the complete part like he's the least embarrassing dad in the universe I'm pretty sure

so don't tell him.

Well, I your dad has gotten the eye roll for me the number of times I can vividly remember.

I can vividly remember being invited to someone's home on a beautiful summer afternoon for

lunch after his morning service when he was speaking at a church in Suffolk County

and we were sitting on the back porch enjoying the weather.

And.

The wife came out on the back porch and said hey, it's such a beautiful summer

day.

Why don't we have for lunch a nice delicious cold and refreshing fruit salad?

Your father.

Your father had the look of panic on his face like he had just heard that the United States

got involved in World War three.

And then there was.

You could sense the tension and the the the dead silence hanging there in The in the

hot summer air.

And the wife the wife said or I could order a pizza.

Your father just totally cheered up after that.

I'm sure he loves me telling that story.

We have a listener all the way in Slovenia.

Joe in Slovenia Says, please ask sisters summer to address

what she thinks is the most important theological topic or issue for women today.

Very good question.

Oh, wow.

That's not a tall order at all.

You know, okay, it's the issue of

feminism.

Which is not on the face of it theological topic except that If

you're going to deal with the presuppositions inherent within feminism Then you are dealing with

theological topics.

And so that's one of the things I like to talk about because It's it's confusing so

we are currently living in a generation of third -wave feminists there have been the first

and second wave before them and what's confusing about feminism is that There are many

points in which Feminists are right feminists in

the turn of the century.

You know what they really wanted was Women to have the right to vote.

Nothing inherently wrong with that.

They were majorly against Pornography they were the biggest group that fought the rise of pornography

in the media.

There's nothing wrong with that.

Obviously they were against the prohibition of alcohol.

I don't appreciate that and Then you had your second wave feminists which were

responsible for what we what happened in the 60s the sexual revolution.

The ultimately ended in the ruling in 1973.

Known as Roe v. Wade that allowed for the Holocaust in the womb that we see

today that if you look up feminism and just the basic

definition it's the idea that Women have as much worth or value

as men.

But that's really not what feminism that we know today that we see in the culture is.

So we can just take it back to Scripture obviously.

The the Bible is Radical and it's treatment of women, especially for the time that

no honest person can read the scriptures and believe that there's any Christian

basis Christian teaching that Women are less valuable than men.

So there's really nothing that needs to be fought against there.

It's really how it's lived out practically in life.

So we know that men and women have different roles.

They've been given.

I.

Mean we've been commissioned Differently in different ways.

God created two genders and they are not the same.

They are not a mirror image of each other.

They are in Opposite to each other and they're complementary.

So I think for women one of the most important things to really get a grasp around

theologically is What what are women for?

What did God make women for if you're Unmarried if you're single

if you're a mom if you're not a mom, you're a woman.

You're a Christian.

What does that mean?

What does embracing being a woman mean at whatever stage in life that you are?

And there's so much confusion about that because the world sends one message and then the church I think oftentimes

tries to like swing the pendulum so hard the other way that You know, they end up trying to make us all dress like we're in

Jane Austen novels and No, I'm

serious it really happens.

Yes, I know.

I've seen I see it really you've seen it.

It's terrifying.

And so I think we're living in a time and joy and I did an episode on that.

We interviewed Rebecca Merkel who wrote a book on this topic

and we have a whole episode on it and I highly recommend it if you Female or male and you're

completely unsure what women are for but really once you get that under your footing I think a lot of

fears.

Theological fears can can disappear.

And so that's really one of my one of my favorite things to talk about and something that I'm really passionate about women.

Understanding who they are being made in the image of God and being made as a female.

Well, thank you Joe from Slovenia.

Keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron in Slovenia.

Which actually is the native land of the new first lady?

And right and by the way, and and you could pay me for this later summer,

but but.

One of the most important things about summer white and she elogians is that they are

specialists in her Manutakes.

I've been waiting for a week to tell you that.

Really do it.

Yes.

Go ahead.

Yes, please.

Iron sharpens iron iron sharpens iron is not afraid of offending anyone unless it's not slant unless

it's slanderous.

Well, they're just not my favorite website, let's say they would be feminists perhaps.

Okay.

Okay, yeah, well that's a good thing.

I don't think we have done that yet.

Sheologians calm.

In fact the sterling pastor sterling who Sent us the email earlier wanted to send the link to his

wife and daughters.

Sheologians calm tell us about the genesis of sheologians.

Okay.

He and some other friends were they were over one night and he's really passionate about

Christians and the arts and I am also very passionate about Christians and the arts and I have a lot of strong

feelings about.

How involved we should be in them?

How bad the current state of a lot of Christian art is?

And so pretty much if you get he and I in a room we're gonna end up having this conversation and so

we were discussing specifically Christian literature.

Because that's what I feel the most passionate about and at the end of our conversation he goes

I think you should do a podcast and I said, okay.

Will you record it for me?

And he said Yeah, show up whenever and it's pretty much worked like that every week.

He helped me put together the website and that's where my blog lives and that's another

thing I love to do.

I Love to write and then the best part about all is my friend joy.

Who is the third co -host of apology or radio?

She blessed me by joining me and being a co -host.

She is.

She's a girl.

She's like, she's the girl.

Okay.

There'd be no show without her no one would tune in without her so you know, basically she and I just

get together every week and We discuss theology our our conviction kind of like our

starting Line for every episode we want it to be short

because I know for women it's hard to listen to a longer program.

Especially moms and working women and it's just it's hard to find time for an hour -long

program or two hour -long program.

So I wanted it to be short and our underlying conviction is that a lot of times Christians just can overcomplicate matters.

And take worldview issues cultural issues political issues and just overcomplicate them.

And so we want to simplify them.

We want to equip women to be able to think scripturally.

Physically simply about issues and be able to respond whether it

be a day -to -day issue in their home or dealing with political news cultural

news so that's kind of our goal and we want to be light -hearted because Both of us

believe like life is so hard.

You can either like laugh or cry and we prefer laughs.

So we like to inject some of that in there, too.

Now what specifically?

What is your complaint about?

The arts in relation to the Christian Church in the 21st century.

Oh.

Boy do you have an extra hour?

Well highlights.

Highlight, okay.

I think if you turn on Christian radio right now, you're gonna hear a lot of really bad I think

that you know, I actually I had an interaction a couple weeks ago with Nicole Nordeman.

And she saw something that I did and just liked it so much that she wrote me a novel and

I really appreciate that.

She sees that in case you don't know.

I don't know.

Okay, she's a Christian recording artist.

I wasn't super familiar with her I'd heard one or two songs, but the internet was super familiar with

her and You know, she basically Was coming out in

defense of Jen hat maker when Jen you know, let us

all know that she's an apostate because she supports.

Homosexual marriage and believe it believes it can be holy just like Amy Grant did a few years ago.

Right and I had something to say about that so she and I had a minimal minimal dialogue, but anyway.

That's the kind of person that you can hear on Christian radio.

And that's not Christian.

There's nothing biblical about her stance and I think we're seeing more and more Christian.

You know quote Christian artists coming out for you know, just complete.

They deny the inerrancy of Scripture they put emotion over truth.

It's scary and I think it's actually kind of exciting too because it's like well finally there's kind of like this culling

that's happening.

In the Christian music world and it's happening usually on the issue of gay marriage

we're kind of getting to see you know, the dividing line there and So, yeah, you turn on

Christian radio and this is this is what you get.

You go into a Christian bookstore, you know, what are you going to find?

If you go into the Christian section on iTunes, you know, I

hit number two, but Joel Osteen will never be dethroned and so a lot of what

is Quote Christian is really just this label for kind of

very vanilla Boring, we're gonna give you a

watered -down goth like moralistic therapeutic

deism.

It's not really Inherently Christian and it's not even a really good art.

There's nothing unique about it.

And so in my opinion like God is you know, he's he's the greatest artist that's ever existed.

And we're made in his image to reflect that and bad art Doesn't reflect

Good art.

It doesn't reflect what God's done.

And so, you know, obviously there's room for opinions about what qualifies as art or not.

However, I just think if you kind of venture into the Christian section of a lot of what's considered art.

You're not going to find great stuff.

So actually our episode that we dropped today was on this topic we talked about it kind of a little bit more in

-depth than I'm gonna do right now, but You know, for instance on Netflix a couple years

ago there was like a Christian section and So I perused that and I saw this

movie and it was supposed to be the retelling of the story of Esther.

Which is a great story and it's told in an epic way and this movie was awful.

And I think that's offensive.

I think we can do better.

I think Christians need to be Less afraid of being bold and telling bold stories.

They need to be less interested in whether or not Christian studio or a Christian label is

going to accept them and they need to go out there and they need to make art.

It's gonna glorify God.

Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent.

I can remember even When my program was airing on

a contemporary Christian music station on Long Island.

How very often I'd be embarrassed by the music preceding and

Following my program because it was somehow identifying me with it.

A lot of it sounded like really bad sappy American Idol

ballad stuff that you couldn't really even tell for certain very often if it was Christian or not.

Right.

I had a very interesting conversation.

About.

Six years ago with Pete Orta who was a member of the band

Petra during one of the Decades that Petra existed.

Petra.

I don't know if you know who they were, but they were very big.

Christian rock.

Yes, yes.

Well, I think they started in the 70s and they were pretty big in the 80s and can today mate.

They may even be around today.

I'm not sure but the Pete Orta who's not with them anymore, but he was telling me that

he knows he was not even a Christian when he was in that band and he was

talking about that the the being involved in the Christian recording industry was an eye -opener and very

saddening to him because a lot of the material that was being produced was really

Second -hand secular songs that were Christianized just by sprinkling, you know, right and I'm

not specifically talking about the band Petra doing that I'm just saying what he saw in other What was happening in the

studios with other groups, so I don't want to just totally bash Petra at all.

But.

But Pete in fact Pete Orta said when he did his solo album born again, he knows he was not born

again.

But he is now he is now praise God but right.

But yeah very very.

Saccharin is I think one of the best ways to describe a lot of Christian music today.

Yes, and It seems that modern -day Christianity

the only people that They don't the lot of the Christian music music

industry doesn't care about offending is conservative

Bible believing Christians who who are strongly adherence to the inerrancy of Scripture and so

on.

Everybody else they don't want to offend with even with the gospel.

Right, but we do have another listener in Indianapolis, Indiana Aaron.

And who says thank you for interviewing summer what a treat.

And thank you for introducing her to me.

She is right about so much not.

The least of which is that your laugh and voice are legendary.

Summer I stand in awe of your confidence in Christ and his truths and your

Proclamation of them.

How would you advise someone like me an Introvert of sorts who did not have a

father like yours.

To gain the strength to speak up against the folly of lies and those who are being spouted.

Obviously it starts by researching and doing your homework.

I would imagine thanks to your father.

And Chris for being some of my heroes for your bravery and standing for truth.

Wow, well, thank you for that.

So I do not believe that anyone has to be

a

Christ gave us,

you know go to seminary read these books do this and then you're ready it was you know spread the

gospel and we're given all kinds of examples in the New Testament of People living holy

lives basic lives going to their basic jobs and living

faithfully and affecting the culture around them that doesn't mean

I don't believe that study is important or Necessary obviously if we're going to speak the

truth, we need to know the truth so I'm not discounting that but the

concept that You know, maybe someone has more footing than you do.

Therefore you're left called Is untrue and and wouldn't be biblical.

So don't don't view yourself that way.

And whether or not, you know, you've had this many years of study or that know the gospel

read your scriptures and We are commanded to always be ready to give a defense

for our faith and that's just something that every Christian is supposed to be able to do and should be

able to do and It doesn't require years of study.

If you know Jesus, you know the gospel if you're reading your scripture daily.

You know the gospel ask what you're called.

So I understand some of us have had more practice, but you don't get practice until you're out there doing it.

So we actually just did a really great episode with Trish Ramos of

fish with Trish her husband is Emilio Ramos of red grace media and they

They are awesome.

They do street and so the episode we just did with her, you know.

We basically asked her like how do you evangelize?

We asked her a very similar question.

If you're an introvert if you stay at home if you're not used to having those conversations.

How do you get out there and get comfortable evangelizing and make it happen in your day -to -day and she

gave I could give you for sure.

But she.

Was really inspiring and had a lot of really practical practical ways that you can do that.

But one of the things I'll never forget growing up from my childhood Is my dad always took us out to the

Mormon Temple because we live in Arizona.

So we have a big and he would take us out to the temple every Easter and we would pass out

track and I remember I started doing that when I was like seven or eight and I remember

asking my dad on a drive out there the temple once like You know, what?

What what part of Mormonism do you think I should study so that like I could I could know what to say.

And he said no no, no, you're going about it all wrong.

You don't you don't study you don't need to study Mormonism to be able to go out and have these conversations.

You need to study the gospel.

You need to know what you believe and why you believe it to have effective conversation.

And of course, you know, he's written books on Mormonism.

The message wasn't don't know anything about Mormonism before you talk to Mormons.

The message was it is way more important that you have a biblical foundation.

You know the gospel that you can give an answer for your faith.

When you're going to go evangelize deal with the cults or whatever so, you know, just bring it all back to Scripture.

We see Paul I believe in acts and I can't remember the chapter off the top of my head.

Where he is out and he's engaging with people and he's

Super presuppositional we won't get into that.

And he is just he is he is arguing from Scripture.

So you don't have to read it this I mean I'm telling I'm not telling you not to read a systematic theology.

I'm telling you you don't have to have to read one in order to share the gospel with people and

I I don't know.

I've never been an introvert, so I can't really Sympathize with you there, but I know that introverts do it all the

time.

Trish Ramos says she's an introvert and she's passing out tracts every day.

So.

Yes, and in fact my pastor who actually is Returning to the UK.

He's from Scotland originally And is leaving The

United States Monday to accept a call to a church in England, but he is

Has been my pastor here in Carlisle for four years very introverted man but he overcomes

that because he loves the gospel and loves the souls of sinners and

he Has a burden to reach out To them and share the message with them.

I believe the Holy Spirit can you know enable people to overcome that?

The shyness obviously he does it all the time.

But we have to go right now to another station break.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for summer.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away we'll be right back with summer.

White of Shia lojans.

I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio.

And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.

He and I are going to.

Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and

Occasional guest on Chris's show.

I.

Think I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta my new

hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer

Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie bachum Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there.

Learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference dot -com.

Thanks Todd, I think.

See you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.

I'm James white of Alpha Omega ministries.

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Welcome back.

If you just tuned us in and iron sharpens iron our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is

Summer white the daughter of dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries and co -host of the

blog and podcast Sheologians and you can hear more or learn more

about sheologians at sheologians .com.

That's theologians with an s and I hope that you discover that and share that

ministry with others.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

By the way is summer.

Did you recognize the two voices in that last ad?

Well, obviously from the the little jab there, you know exactly who.

We have.

And we have Harrison from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, which

actually I don't know if you knew this but that's a city where your dad spent a lot of his childhood.

Oh, in fact, he was baptized in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

That's why you still love him.

Anyway Harrison Harrison and Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania is is there anything

that you can share in Which you and your father have departed

theologically on an issue.

Oh boy, thanks for putting me on the spot.

Departed on departed on.

Well, let me give you an example.

I know that like you are going to my friend Jeff Durbin's church.

Whoo, I know that your father is a very close relationship with Jeff, but Jeff is a theonomist.

Even though he's a Reformed Baptist.

He is a theonomist and there are probably other things that he believes that your father disagrees with him on

but.

Or.

Being a theonomist is not a requirement for membership.

Not you know, and the great thing about Jeff is he knows what our first and secondary issues

I really like hanging out with.

Being post mill theonomist.

It's it's just what's the word I'm searching for.

Invigorating.

Oh, it's invigorating.

It's so positive.

It's so, you know, they have such a bright outlook for the future and I I love being around that

I would agree that.

You know, I think before I've been going to Apology everybody year.

I think before this I probably would have said no I'm on mill.

Let's just leave it alone.

And at this point, you know, I'm not really sure I haven't done

enough study on eschatology to say Really

where I would stand I know my dad's on millennial.

Jeff is post -millennial and I would kind of just like to say that

I don't talk about eschatology.

So don't ask.

You are certainly a chip off the old block.

I mean your father only came out with his Eschatological position about five years ago.

I think I know I know.

And I you know, I don't know.

I think I think if I studied it I don't know that I would be on millennial.

I think there are a lot of things makes a lot of fun.

I haven't really done enough study to say but I guess if I did

I would be departing from my dad there.

Other than that, you know, I really can't think of anything obviously where we are two different people.

I'm not Exactly my dad.

I'm kind of like just I'm a lot like him just you know, like better looking um.

Yeah, that's where you definitely take after your mother.

No, so far not yet.

And here's the thing if I ever did I would do the totally mature adult

thing and Never tell him.

I.

Would love to see you and him in a live public moderated

debate, that would be awesome.

By the way, do you know the difference between an optimistic and a pessimistic amillennialist.

The optimistic one.

Eat more Twinkies.

An optimistic amillennialist is an Amillennialist.

A pessimistic amillennialist is an amillennialist.

We do have A BB and Cumberland County,

Pennsylvania who wants to know.

Do you find it difficult?

Being a woman using your gifts in public in the world

of Christian media.

Where you are constantly trying to check yourself to prevent stepping

over the boundaries of proper participation among women in the

church.

Knowing that you are not a feminist and from what I understand a complementarian and believing

in male Headship, does it ever make you nervous?

Do you ever feel awkward about it?

No, that's good.

If our question is about Female relationships in the church. I think that would be a whole

other different topic in terms of like, how do you? relate to other women or if the question

is presupposing that Speaking to women can be difficult

topic.

But it is about so

you're a woman and you believe that women can't be pastors or women can't hold authority.

Over men, how do you do what you do?

I am I Am a churchman church woman.

I don't know.

You or whatever a fluffy chair, whatever they have in your church Um

is an ordained position and I hold it

in extremely high regard.

I am no one's pastor.

Not a spiritual authority to anyone.

I have people coming to me all the time Asking me questions that I have no business

answering because I'm not their authority.

I'm not their elder.

And so when those come to my inbox, I refer them to our local church if they're not a part of a local church.

They need to be a part of the local church number one.

I believe that Being a part of your local church being accountable to your local church is just

so integral in life.

But if that's not something that you have that you're already off track, please don't listen to me.

Please spend time finding a church and getting yourself plugged in and being accountable to your elders and

on that topic.

I.

Am accountable with my

so they help me with my blog or listen to the

show.

Safety net that I love.

I love accountability.

What I'm doing is way too scary to not have accountability to not have

elders over me.

And if I'm stupid or wrong or potentially dangerous I have

people around me specifically spiritual authorities in my life ordained by the church

would you know?

Mac whatever and so that accountability that I have

Doesn't offend me.

It encourages me.

It strengthens me.

It makes me feel responsible.

It's a light, you know, it gives me the freedom to do what I'm doing because I know That I have that

safety net.

So Is it hard?

No I wouldn't do this if I wasn't under the accountability of my local

church.

I don't do it without their support and honestly, it's gone so well.

It really not a whole lot of it not a whole lot about it has

Enjoyable and fun.

I do feel called to it.

Obviously, I think the Lord is really blessing the podcast and my blog.

I don't think We hit number two on iTunes because I'm special or magical.

I do think my co -host is special or magical, but I don't think that's because of her Specialness either.

I think God is blessing what we're doing because we really just

want to glorify him and we really want to reach people specifically women

And help equip them.

We both have just been extremely well discipled which is not something a lot of

People have had in their lives a lot of access to waste that so

for me personally as long as we are.

Being faithful being responsible putting ourselves under accountability And

seeking to honor God there's really not a whole lot that is scary about it and you know, I

we do not in any way speak to the plant the

Position in people's lives of their local churches where no one's pastors and we would never claim to be so.

That's very impressive number two on iTunes.

Wow.

Well, I can.

I could proudly boast that iron sharpens iron is the number one Christian live Christian Talk

show in the southern portion of Carlisle, Pennsylvania

Between 4 and 6 p .m.

It's the number one.

You know, I.

Know we thought next we thought next to Osteen for a while and it was like

it was like watching a Movie because it was so unreal.

We're not there anymore.

We didn't hold that position for forever at all, but we're still on the chart.

And we hit that position, you know right out the gate.

It was just crazy.

And that kind of let me know, you know, the Lord's blessing it.

It's a silly little podcast that my best friend and I do and The response that we've gotten has just been

so encouraging I I could totally just be a woman right now and cry talking about it.

But we get you know, I get messages day in and day out people saying thank you so much.

This was so encouraging I needed to hear this.

This is what I've been looking for.

I wish I could respond to all of them.

It's just but it's been it's been just a huge blessing to me

To see that and to hear that.

Well praise God for that.

We do have CJ from Lindenhurst Long Island, New York.

Who says have you ever struggled and do you still struggle with anger?

When you see people militia.

Maliciously attack your father for his doctrinal positions.

Okay, so You know from my from my

stand no.

Like my father I

have expect it it's gonna

happen.

I think that's really helped in my own ministry because

You know, I think I get more mess more nice messages than mean ones, but I get a whole lot of mean ones, too.

And it's never ruined my day not one and so when I

see I mean, he did say maliciously attacked.

Yeah, sure.

You know when someone attacks someone that you care about in a malicious way, I think there's such a thing as a

righteous anger.

It never I never allow it to ruin my day.

It never owned my emotion.

It's just kind of something that you Get used to when your dad's in the public eye

Saying controversial things.

It's like his favorite thing to do and so You know, the answer is yes and no.

The great thing about the Internet is that I don't have to see everything on the Internet.

I can see what I want to see.

And so over time I've just learned Don't go here.

Don't look there.

Don't listen to this Hide this person and everything's fine, and I totally do tailor

My social media that way I do like to be able to have interactions with people I disagree with but if it becomes

malicious or What really bothers me?

The only things that really bother me are People that just get so hung up on secondary issues.

You see people that They're not out Writing the gospel.

They're not Debating Muslims.

They're not, you know working to grow the kingdom with the cults or

with other religions.

But they have all day long to pick apart other Christians on secondary issues.

I think I have a righteous anger towards that.

Because Man, it's not even personal at this point.

It's like you need to get out there and build the kingdom instead of building up your you know, secondary issue doctrine

thing.

And it's not that secondary doctrine shouldn't be studied.

But if there's the planting the spreading of the gospel an actual kingdom building, I think you've got a problem

I don't particularly like keyboard warriors would do that.

But yeah, is it a struggle no, it's kind of just honestly daily daily life.

And I'm thankful for it because I think it will allow me to continue doing what I'm

doing.

Yeah, I have struggled with a deck the decades -long.

Anger and frustration over my Deep -seated envy of your father of his

brain of his gifts.

And it doesn't and Facebook doesn't help like for instance your father can post on Facebook.

This is the most delicious Taco that I've ever eaten and he'll get 900 likes

in three minutes.

I'll pour my heart out on something.

It takes a week to get five likes on it.

We've got.

We've got.

Stephen an optimistic a mill guy from Brooklyn and

his question is Brooklyn.

New York, of course, there are a couple of different Brooklyn's.

There's a Brooklyn in Maryland.

But anyway.

What materials would you recommend for youth today in order to encourage them to live godly lives?

Scripture is a given.

Right.

My favorite book as a teenager was John Piper's don't waste your life God

really used that book in my conversion actually.

It's very simple very accessible that comes with a CD doesn't or a DVD.

I think yeah.

Yeah, it did.

I don't know if it still does but the print that I had Had a CD in it and don't waste your life

was Was awesome.

So in terms of living the Christian life My favorite book that I've read on that topic

In the last several years was Kevin DeYoung's the whole in our holiness That was eye

-opening convicting awesome fan in

terms of Encouragement in your daily life having a

devotional.

So, I know for a lot of you know, it sounds kind of like old and a little bit of cheesy like Devotional.

I don't know.

I don't know if that was like a more popular thing in days gone by

but I Think having an emotional is great because we all have you

know, the attention span of a microwave and We're busy and things are calling to us all

the time.

And so for me Setting aside a time every day that I'm in my devotional.

I'm reading Paul David trips new morning mercy right now and it's been Just

amazing.

I mean he can really like lay down the conviction and the encouragement in a matter of paragraphs.

That's great I really like to encourage people to have a devotional

Because it forces you daily if you'll be disciplined and there is you know

discipline in the Christian life and it's Not my generation's favorite word, but there is discipline that is

involved and required in the Christian life And so if you'll be disciplined enough To sit down with your

devotional every day with your Bible.

There should be a Bible reading with it You have a devotional it doesn't recommend a scripture reading.

Please go get a different devotional I think that's huge.

I can redirect your heart It can redirect your focus for the day and I know there are times

when I need that So even if I've already done my devotion for the day I'll just flip through and pick a

random one just because I need to refocus and be encouraged and be convicted

so.

Yeah.

Yeah, it sounded like it to me.

And Steve from Brooklyn also adds and you are much better looking than the get

the great.

Dr. White.

And.

Steve since you are a.

I'm sorry.

It's like winning a beauty contest in a leper colony here.

I'm only only kidding.

Um, well anyway.

I.

Steve in Brooklyn.

Since you are a first -time listener or at least the first -time questioner.

You are getting a free New American Standard Bible Compliments of the publishers of the NASB

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Both of whom sponsor iron sharpens iron and we thank both the publishers of the NASB

and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for being faithful supporters of our program, but Steve we need

your full mailing address.

We just have Brooklyn, New York.

So, please give us your full mailing address so we can have that Bible shipped out to you.

It's a really beautiful edition of the NASB.

It has a Embossed cross on the cover.

It is a perfect size.

To carry around in a briefcase or perhaps a winter coat pocket.

It's not quite small enough to fit in the shirt pocket.

But it is just the right size where it's not too small where you can't read it, especially when you're over 50

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But it's good fit in a woman's pocketbook and purse as well very easily.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy that and make much use of this new Bible.

So please give us your full mailing address and We are going to go to our

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If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own as well.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And if you just tuned to send our guest for the full two hours today is Summer white.

We've got a half hour of that to go.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And Summer is not only the daughter of world -renowned Apologist and

theologian and debater. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministry Alpha and Omega ministries.

She is also the co -host of the sheologians blog and podcast

that's sheologians with an s and.

Their website is sheologians .com.

Sheologians .com we have RJ in White Plains, New York.

Who wants to know who are your most prominent?

Women heroes of the faith and they can be both those in glory with Christ

already or living.

Okay.

Well, you know not to be super sentimental or anything, but my grandma my dad's mom I

was actually named after her and I hope I'm a lot like her she was awesome and

As for right now Honestly, like my heroes of the

faith are like the women that I go to church with the women that I You know

and accountable to the women and they

served me so well, and there's just so many ladies in my church that I I

admire I look up to I want to be like and getting to see their day -to -day

lives and Just see how much they serve and how much they love their husbands and their families and the

church.

That's like that's real, you know, yeah, there are you know, I

love you know, I think of Corrie ten boom and Elizabeth Elliot.

Rebecca Merkel is one of my favorite Christian authors right now.

I love to follow anything that she writes.

But ultimately at the end of the day it's the women around me in my church

want to be the most like because they are like Christ and Because I know them and they know me and they're very

encouraging so, you know, I don't know if that's really the answer anyone's looking for but I

Feel so so incredibly blessed to be a part of a church

That just loves each other and sir.

And getting to see that and everybody's day -to -day lives like that's the Christian life man.

Like that that's like the sweetness of fellowship and I'm just I'm blessed to have it and I

don't I'm never gonna get over it.

Well, I think that was quite a thorough answer obviously whoever RJ and

White Plains wanted to know what you who your heroes were so you answered him and

very good answer and In fact, why don't we give a plug?

To apology a church their website is apology a church calm.

Apology a church.

That's a p o l o g i a church calm and they are located in Tempe,

Arizona.

So if you're ever visiting the Tempe, Arizona area or if you live there and you don't have a church home.

Or you have a church home and it's horrible.

Perhaps it's Perhaps it's a cult.

Perhaps it's abandoned the faith I have visit to apology a church.

I really love interviewing the pastor Jeff Durbin in fact I'm kind of upset

and hurt because he hasn't been on my program in a while and neither has your father.

I'm getting really ticked off about it actually, so if you could bug both of them

that I want them on the show soon and.

And.

Of course your father is always Ribbing or insulting pastor Jeff

about mispronouncing Apologia he says apology.

Yeah.

So I when I said to Jeff, well, you should ask dr. White.

Are you then a reformed Baptist?

Apologist, is that what you are?

And.

This this new arena that you are now.

Getting your feet wet in of public apologetics and so on.

Do you exclude?

Or include a vision of perhaps even Doing something exactly like your

dad does.

Debating people.

Those who perhaps are either in in -house debates what people who disagree on Secondary

or tertiary issues within the faith or even people who are in cults or in false religions.

And would that include debating men in your opinion?

Is that a sphere that you believe a woman in the church can properly entertain?

Debating publicly a man.

You.

Know so all the time I'll be engaging in some kind of dialogue and people will chime in and

say oh you guys should debate.

And I want to say ten times out of ten the person that I'm speaking with has no interest in debating me.

And I don't think that's because I'm scary or anything I think it's just because I think

the art of lost on people my age I don't think it's

that popular With my generation.

You don't really see them engaging in a whole lot of public moderated scholarly debates.

Which I think is unfortunate.

I Mean, I would love to I would love to do a debate if someone like a Rachel held up and

Wanted to debate me I would put on my studying shoes.

And I know that I would have like the greatest mentor in the world to help me do that.

And he would pour all of his time into it because he's such a nerd he would be so happy

but I Don't know that.

I mean right now.

I'm just skeptical that that's even on the horizon just because there's really not a whole lot of

Women my age that are engaging and you know the opposite of what I'm doing or have opposite

beliefs as me That seem interested in doing something like that

I have I ever considered debating a dude.

You know, I haven't really given a whole lot of thought to this honestly.

The first thing I would do would be to ask, you know, my dad and Jeff's opinion on that honestly.

Because I do you know, they have spiritual authority in my life.

My my just straight out of the gate answer is I don't see why there would be anything wrong with

that because public moderated scholarly debate is Not to be confused with a church

service.

I think there's anything wrong with a woman proclaiming the gospel Where other people might

hear?

Or just engaging on some kind of secondary issue.

But you know, honestly, like I said, I haven't really thought that through because in my head and in every

time It's been recommended that I debate someone it was another woman.

So I honestly haven't really thought through that yet.

And like I said, the first thing I would do would to be, you know Basically did I would I would want like permission

and support from from my church and my pastors if I was To debate anyone and so I would

say that's a conversation I would have with them first and they said no,

then I wouldn't even I wouldn't even skip a beat.

The answer would be no and.

One thing I definitely wanted you to Speak about before I forget and the time runs

out is I remember being very impressed about hearing years

ago when you were in college about you standing firm in regard to a

professor that was trying to fail you or I can't remember exactly the circumstances, but if you

could just because he had a Hatred or an opposition to your worldview

your biblical worldview if you could elaborate on what happened with that because it might be encouraging for

college students, especially or even high school students or students of any age who feel uncomfortable in

the class because Their teachers try to publicly embarrass them by because they're Christians make them

look like they're idiots or something.

So if you could tell us about what happened with that.

Right.

Um that actually happened twice.

I'm not sure which time you remember.

Well, tell us about both of them.

I'm not a fan of kicking up the dust, but it just seems to happen wherever I'm at.

Um, so in high school We were given this Project

where we needed to write a letter to the president about a Controversial topic

that was currently in the news and There were all kinds of requirements for the letter.

This was an English class.

So some of the requirements were silly.

It was like use five of your vocabulary words from this week.

It needed to be set up like a persuasive essay so that each paragraph had to be a certain kind of paragraph and So it

had to be modeled in a way that was basically teaching us how to take a standardized test.

But it needed to be on a controversial topic.

And so I chose to write about stem cell research because I believe this was in 2004 when that was in the news

quite a bit as it turns out.

The teacher oh and we had to read it in front of the class and we were encouraged.

The class was encouraged if we really liked the letter felt it strong.

With the clap and and let the person know that they had really sold their point and so I

read my letter and I got a standing ovation and I go to walk over the

teachers desk and and what we're supposed to do after we wrote the letter was put it in an Envelope and hand it to her.

So I walk over to her desk and I go to put it in an envelope and she said I don't want that.

See me after class.

To make a long story short she was undergoing cancer at the time and and the story in the news

was that stem cells might be the cure for cancer and you know my whole point was a pro -life

argument of We shouldn't be destroying creating or destroying embryos.

And so I made a very strong pro -life argument again stem cell research.

And she was going through cancer at the time and thought that it might be what saved her.

Very long story short.

She refused to give me credit.

She thought I plagiarized it.

So I had to prove it in plagiarize it.

It was this long drawn -out process that eventually ended up with me in the principal's office with the superintendent with my

dad with her.

And she just flat -out refused to give me credit for the paper and it was so bad that the principal offered to

transfer me to another school because he believed that she would not allow me to Pass her class.

Wow.

And.

I you know, I'm not stubborn at all at all, but I totally refused to

Refuse to do that.

I refused to leave the school and I I stuck it out and I

Ended up on all kinds of radio shows for it.

You know, my dad obviously talked about his show and then these radio stations wanted to talk to me and then

Got clues and or put it in his his book.

Oh, yeah, I just interviewed him about a week ago.

Yeah, he wrote about it in his book and and it just kind of came this big thing and then

actually George Bush someone printed out my letter from the Internet because my dad posted it and

They gave it to George Bush and I actually got like a real letter from him not like one of those.

But like a real Letter my mom framed it.

I think it's hanging in their house.

Wow Roy said but anyway.

So there was that situation and then in college.

I had this philosophy professor and He one of his favorite things to do was just

try to destroy Christianity and so he you know, he would throw out all the standard

zeitgeist arguments and then he one day I couldn't tolerate it.

But at the same time I kind of just wanted to get the class over with it was just a prerequisite.

And I just wanted to be over but one day he just started going on about the New

Testament specifically the Matthew Mark Luke and John and he just completely butchered.

I don't remember exactly what it was.

My dad would remember because he was like so proud of me but I don't remember exactly what he said, but He

totally messed up what language they were written in.

And so he was trying to basically destroy.

The.

Infallibility and the inerrancy of the New Testament based on a language that they weren't even written in and I just couldn't even tolerate it

anymore.

So I raised my hand and the New Testament

was written in Greek and he about lost his mind.

He got in my face.

He grabbed my desk.

Wow having this this back -and -forth in the middle of class.

I don't know.

He wasn't really scary.

He was just kind of very angry and really wanted at that point.

It's like you can't I couldn't take it personally like this isn't a personal attack.

He obviously spends his days and his classes trying to convince 18 year old kids that the New

Testament is this and that and that's his life's work and there I was.

You know kind of embarrassing him a little bit because his claims were his claims were wrong.

Um long story short, you know, my dad ended up writing him a letter.

The school offered to take me out of his class.

It was like history repeating itself and I refused and I stayed in the class

and Drove him nuts for the rest of the semester and it was kind of just a hobby of mine

and I got an A in the class for the record, but Wow, you know, it just It's

like at the end of the day I think sometimes when people ask like, oh, how do you do that?

Or like how are you like bold and it's like at the end of the day if you're a Christian and

you're Defending scripture or you're preaching the gospel.

You're speaking truth like the truth.

You've already won like just how you've already won if you're defending Christianity.

You don't have to be scared because you're you've already won.

And so for me, there's just like so much confidence in that That You know speaking the

gospel in the situations that might be perceived as scary.

It's like well, you know I've already been told that if I love Jesus the world's gonna hate me and I already

know that Jesus is the truth and He's already won so it kind of like really takes out any kind of like fear that you

might have like just speak the truth and Whatever persecution you get for it.

I can guarantee you It's not as bad as any of the persecution anyone in like China or other countries are experiencing.

So I don't know roll your sleeves up and just get to it.

Yeah, well, I thought that that story ended with your father taking him in a long drive into the Arizona desert and him.

Never having been heard from since.

Yeah, that's that's so disappointing because.

You know whether you're a liberal or conservative.

The.

The academic world is supposed to be about challenging one another with

ideas and You know, like for instance Alan Dershowitz who is a

very liberal Attorney and author and so on he

had as one of his students had Ted Cruz Who was even

back even back then was a conservative Bible believing Christian and though Alan Dershowitz

as his professor was often on the opposite end of the spectrum in regarding to

Argumentation and so on he very Highly valued and was very extremely

openly impressed With Ted Cruz and said that he was like one of the greatest minds he has ever

encountered.

So you would think that there would be more integrity and honesty even from a liberal but that's a

That's a shame.

Well, I want to make sure before we run out of time that you leave our audience

With what you most want etched in their hearts and minds.

Before this program comes to an end and especially in regard to your

New calling here with Shia logans and this work you're involved in.

Sure.

So I mean I.

Think you know, I touched on it earlier.

I think it was the last hour.

The foundation of what joy and I believe and the reason that we're doing this show is that we really believe that Christians

can.

And especially women a resource they can go

to it's going to be solid it's

going to be reformed.

To face anything whether it's our culture politics.

Discipleship things that are happening in the church.

We've done episodes on feminism.

We've done episodes on why you should be confessional if you're not confessional.

We've done episodes like I said on the art.

On evangelism and so what we just really really want is for Christian women to

Have a resource to go to to be encouraged to get it quickly and hopefully be entertained on the way.

Joy, and I are just naturally very light -hearted people and We want that we think

Christians should be joyful.

And so we make fun of ourselves a little bit.

I think so life is like I said earlier life is so hard.

You can laugh or you can cry and we choose to laugh.

And so, you know, it's less of me I cannot even tell you how much when people write in and say

like we've been so encouraged and we're so thankful because that's the

deal.

And I want to give people the tools to think through try to do

with my blog is Tackle an issue put the

Christian worldview on it and hopefully Equip people to look at everything

through a gospel lens.

So yeah, and we we do need support so it takes a lot of time effort energy

to put the show on and We have a patreon account for it.

So that we can keep the lights on and keep doing it and we do need more supporters.

I think we only have like 50 or 60 right now.

We just started the account and we definitely need more people.

So if you go to patreon .com Sheologian.

You can support us there and hopefully, you know I hope God like continues to bless the

show and to give joy and I the words to say to continue.

Just encouraging people particularly women and I'm really excited about it.

I don't know that we're gonna end in a debate or get me there.

But yeah, we're excited we have a lot of really cool guests coming up.

Emily Foams is going to be on.

One of my favorite Christian bands that isn't insane.

She's going to be on and we've already had a really great lineup of guests, you know I guess I'll condescend

to have dr. James White on.

And so Yeah, I really hope that God just continues To allow us to do

this because so far I've like never had more fun in my life and I love being

Just how God is using it and that we're we're old people up.

Speaking of music.

Have you ever heard of a group?

Christian group called my soul among lions.

Yes, of course. I love them.

I.

Interview.

Oh, yeah.

I had an interview with the the lead member of the group and

That's amazing.

Really love them and going to Try my best to promote them as much as I

can and I'd love to see them come out here To Carlisle because that we have a 900 seat old

-fashioned theater from the early 1900s That has restored and is an active theater again.

It's also a place where I hope to see your father debating.

Eventually.

They've I've already spoke to the owners and they are more than happy for me to use it for religious activities

like debates.

So great.

Yeah, and.

We do have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who says

what loving rebuke and Sisterly chastisement.

Can you offer?

To your brothers in Christ who you believe may have overstepped our boundaries in

Machismo in the church or Misogyny or looking down upon our

sisters.

Unconsciously.

If there are actual cases of Misogyny then obviously that is a

failure to appreciate that women Are made just as much in the image of God

as men.

And so shame on anybody who does cross

their name and women

don't have then men.

So I would say if you believe that women don't have as much value as

men for me It's the same it's as vile as you know saying that someone of a different skin

color Doesn't have the same value as you and that's ultimately gonna

be a gospel problem.

So the the difficulty in approaching that is that it's a heart issue and only God

can change the heart.

Personally I think if a man in the church has an issue it is best for

another man to approach him.

Which is just going to go back to my whole potentially annoying to some non -denominational type.

Feeling that being accountable and active in your church is going to be huge for your Christian life.

I think if you're not you're kind of going to be up a creek without a paddle.

So get involved get to know your pastors get to know other people get discipled disciple others.

Because ultimately if there is a true misogynist in the church

He needs to be Discipled his heart needs to be changed and the method that God is going to use

to do that the primary means that we've been given Is our church body

and so, you know, if he is not active and engaged in his church body It might be hard for someone else

to approach him.

So let's hope that that's happening.

If everybody could just get involved with their churches, that'd be great perfect world, right.

So I would say If it's an unrepentant behavior and it's potentially a blind

spot then bring it before his elders.

I don't think a woman is going to be the best Person to address that at the end of the

day.

So pray pray about bringing it to the elders.

Maybe a family member that you're close to.

I would never sit down with.

I mean, I wouldn't say never I guess a situational I would not sit down with a man and say hey, let's talk about the problem that you have

with women.

I don't think that it's going to be the most helpful and at the end of the day.

You just want to be the most helpful and so get the church involved.

And last but not least Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania Says do you think that it is primarily?

the job or role for a woman to be giving private subtle or not so subtle

rebukes and chastisements to the sisters in Christ who are dressing very

provocatively in the assembly.

Oh.

Wow, someone about their dress is going

to be 100 situational.

I do think most of the time an Elder might delegate

that out to a female or a wife the elders are trying to deal with it.

Which you know, I would agree with but you know, it's going to be super situational but kind of like in the

last question that we talked about I don't think a woman is the best to

approach a man about his Potential misogyny.

I think I don't think a man is going to be the best.

Always the best option to approach approach a woman.

Regarding how they dress obviously, I think issues of modesty or issues of

discipleship.

And so if this woman isn't being well discipled in her church with the other

women then no wonder This could be an issue.

So I would bring it back to Discipleship.

Is she being discipled by other women?

How can we aid her in being involved in relationships or you being discipled by other women?

And this is another great example of why it's so important to be involved in your local church.

And we're out of time and summer's website is sheologians .com.

Sheologians .com and the church for Apologia Church go to Apologia Church Com.

Thank you so much summer for being on the program.

I look forward to you.

Frequently returning to iron sharpens iron and I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ

Is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.