Keep sharing good news without ads.
August 4, 2023
Jason Wallace, accomplished documentarian, debate coordinator & host, & the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC) of Magna, Utah, who will address:
“The FAILURE of EASTERN ORTHODOXY”
Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father, James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer, George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, and sports legend, Jim Thorpe.
It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fourth day of August, 2023.
I am thrilled to have back on the program an old friend whose ministry has blessed me enormously. Speaking of Jason Wallace, an accomplished documentarian, debate coordinator and host, and pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation in the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination in Magna, Utah.
And today, we are going to be addressing his latest documentary, which is an extremely valuable documentary, not that all of his documentaries are not valuable, but this one especially, because there is so, there is such little known in any reasonable level of depth about the religion of Eastern Orthodoxy outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.
There are very few Protestants, very few Protestant apologists that have really grasped a thoroughly deep understanding of this mysterious religion. And I would hazard to guess that the majority of adherents and members of the Eastern Orthodox Church are in that same position.
And I'm not referring to their priesthood necessarily or their professors and apologists, although I'm sure that there are many of them in that category as well, just as there are evangelical so-called apologists who are ignorant about a great deal of things.
But this is a very mysterious religion and very rarely discussed in Protestant and evangelical and reform circles. And so I'm urging all of you to watch the failure of Eastern Orthodoxy. We're going to be telling you how you can do that momentarily.
And in fact, I would urge everybody who's listening right now to either text or email or give a phone call to family, friends, and loved ones who are either Eastern Orthodox right now, who are dabbling with the possibility of converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, or perhaps they have their own apologetics ministry and have long been frustrated in their or by their dialogue with Eastern Orthodox people because they've had inadequate answers to questions and accusations to them and so on.
So please tell them to listen because this is sure to be an eye-opening and edifying and educational experience. Jason Walsh, it is so wonderful to have you back on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
Chris, it's a pleasure always to be on your show.
And as always, for the sake of our listeners who have not heard you on this program or have not seen any of your debates that you've conducted with James White of Alpha Omega Ministries or your interviews with him on The Dividing Line, tell our listeners about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah.
Thank you. We're a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination. Started here from scratch 25 years ago and really quickly got introduced to James White. He was coming up doing evangelism twice a year at General Conference, the LDS General Conference that they have every year, the Mormons.
And so we helped out with some of that and partially because of what you had done with James in terms of the great debates and things like this, we thought we could do the same thing out here. And so we started lining up debates with him and particularly Mormons, but also Roman Catholics.
And we lined him up with, years ago, a pastor in the Metropolitan Community Church to debate homosexual marriage and did a lot of debates for several years. The Mormons basically put out the word, no more debates.
Daniel Peterson down at BYU, from what I understand, put out that word. And so we couldn't get the level of people that we used to have. Plus, street preachers came with the Olympics and started making it much harder for James to actually have a conversation with people.
They were using megaphones and just screaming at people, insults, and they weren't preaching. They were mocking, they were accusing like 14-year-old girls of being lesbians and things like this. It just turned into a circus down there.
Sounds like Westboro Baptist Church.
They actually showed up as well.
That's right, I remember James saying that. He had a brief confrontation with the former pastor of that church who is now deceased.
Yeah, it was here in Salt Lake. They're primitive Baptists, so they're 1689. And so James goes up and introduces himself. And I think he asked him something about, what do you make of Paul saying that we're supposed to speak the truth in love?
Oh, what was his name? Fred Phelps shoves his finger in his chest and says, you hate God and I hate you.
That's right. By the way, primitive Baptists protest his claimed affiliation with them. And one thing that I know for certain that would reveal that his claimed affiliation with the primitive Baptists is fraudulent is that the primitive Baptists, by and large, not all of them, they're not cookie cutter churches, but many of them, if not most of them, the serious error in theology that they have is that their understanding of the gates of heaven are far broader than you and I would hold to because they believe that a truly elect person may not ever come to faith in Christ on this earth and will still be in heaven because they so far remove the proclamation of the gospel from election.
And they will claim that if somebody is a devout Roman Catholic or Muslim or something else, that the reason why they have a love for God, even though it's not the correct God, is because God first loved them.
Really strange logic. But the Westboro Baptist Church that claims to be primitive Baptists, they have a very, very, very, very, very tiny width of the gates of heaven that basically only includes them.
Yeah, and the universalist primitive Baptists are actually a minority as well, at least in our neck of the woods, but both sides of my family historically were primitive Baptists.
Yes, I remember you telling me that.
But anyway, we got involved with James doing debates. We've done hundreds of book tables, free evangelistic materials. The debates, when James couldn't do them anymore, I'm not a debater, but I figured out neither were the Mormons.
And so I started doing some of the debates. I debated some local pastors on homosexuality, including the pastor of First Baptist of Salt Lake. He's American Baptist and very, very liberal. He says that homosexuality is a gift from God that should be celebrated.
And so I debated him at the University of Utah on that. The debates basically led to the opportunity to do a television program for seven and a half years. It was actually a Pentecostal TV station, but they let me on.
And so we did that. We did live call-in, we did interviews. When they sold the station and it changed formats, I realized the power of video. And I like not being in front of the camera. So I like being able to gather my thoughts and crystallize them.
And there's some wonderful books out there that hardly anyone reads. There's a lot of popular short videos and sermons and teaching materials. There's not a lot that tries to fill the gap in between. And so seven years ago, we started making evangelistic videos and we made first ones dealing with Mormonism.
That sort of naturally led to Roman Catholicism, to atheism. We've done things on Islam. So the Adventist and a number of other topics. But now we turn to Eastern Orthodoxy.
And by the way, I wanna make sure our listeners have your website for Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah. It is gospelutah .org, gospelutah .org. Well, what was the first compelling factor that rose up in your mind that made you draw the conclusion, I have got to do a documentary on Eastern Orthodoxy.
And how much of Eastern Orthodoxy were you familiar with before you actually set out to create the documentary?
Well, a number of things basically came together. Mormons love to appeal to Eastern Orthodoxy because the doctrine of theosis, which we deal with in the video, they claim is the same as their doctrine that you can become a God.
And that's not what Eastern Orthodox are teaching, but some of them actually do almost begin to sound that way. Some of the more radical ones. But it's not a legitimate claim. Athanasius clearly didn't support what the Mormons try to claim he supported.
And we actually deal with that. But essentially, part of what drew me out here was I had been a nominal Christian to the age of 23, and God shook me from that by driving me to the Word and showing me that simply being religious wasn't being a Christian.
Knowing that there's a God, you know, the demons believe in tremble. I had a young lady trying to recruit me into a cult called The Way International, and she embarrassed me with my ignorance of scripture.
I could fake my way through a Sunday school class easily enough, but when I actually went and started studying the Bible for the first time in my life, I got confronted by a God I didn't know. And I saw that with Mormonism.
And through Mormonism, watching a number of people, Dave Barshowitz and others, convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, I realized, you know, this is just another form of religion to hide from God. That's what Mormonism is.
That's what Roman Catholicism is. And there are people who are very sincere. I was sincere when I was a nominal Christian, but there's a difference between being sincere about some basic facts and knowing God.
And, you know, Mormonism, it teaches people to be outwardly moral. It presents a good front, but it's a different God and a different gospel. And the deeper you go, the worse it gets. The only thing that separates me from Heavenly Father and Mormonism is time and exaltation.
In Eastern Orthodoxy, I had a peripheral knowledge, but I kept being confronted with it. I saw more and more people going that direction. It was actually coming across a guy named Josiah Trenum, who's featured in the video, that really set me off, because here's a guy that was a licentiate in Presbyterian Church of America.
And he was ordained, or he graduated, he was never ordained, but he graduated from Westminster Seminary in Escondido, California, in 1992. And the next year, he became an Eastern Orthodox priest. And he's out there lying the same way the Mormons lie, lying about the Protestant Reformation, lying about the Bible, creating caricatures and deceiving people.
And it's like, you know, I am motivated by love for Christ and for his people, but I've also got a Scottish streak that I just, when I hear people lying, I get fired up. And that's kind of what set me off.
Now, I wanna assure our Eastern Orthodox listeners that this is not an exercise in hatred. This is not an exercise in religious bigotry. As you should know, and probably understand in regard to a defense of your own belief system, that to expose and reveal serious errors in the theology of others, when done so with humility and integrity and honesty, where nastiness and hatred is not your motivation, that there could be few other ways to demonstrate love for people.
Because if you believe in eternity, and if you believe in a place called hell, if you really love someone, you don't want them to go there. You don't want them to continue to hold to something that is damning.
And if you're an Eastern Orthodox person, especially one who is on the historic, right-leaning end of things, you know that you have a very exclusivistic understanding of Christianity, and that those outside of your religion are not truly Christians.
I know that there is a broad spectrum of Eastern Orthodox adherents, some are even leftists who endorse homosexuality, which was actually a shocking revelation to me when I watched the video that we're talking about.
But please do not take what we are doing and saying as anything to do with hatred. In fact, some of the comments that have already come out in social media, an Eastern Orthodox individual by the name of John says, the nerve of a Protestant heretic who adheres to the heresy of sola scriptura, claiming that the Orthodox are a failure, the arrogance of a heretic.
Now, that is reminiscent of Archie Bunker's comment that the Irish, now they're bigots. He is really revealing that he is guilty of the very thing he's trying to claim about us. And a woman named Lisa, who is a moderator for the Protestant Orthodox and Catholic Discourse page on Facebook says, you have no points of discourse in this post and it is inflammatory to the Orthodox in this group.
Also to others of us who do not believe that orthodoxy is a failure, I am turning off comments. Now, she obviously didn't realize that this was an advertisement for a radio program where it is open for live dialogue with our listeners because we invite our listeners to send in questions.
And I would actually hope that more than anybody, Eastern Orthodox people are the ones that send in questions. Perhaps they vehemently disagree with anything that my guest might be saying. I invite you to join the conversation.
But let's start with a summary of how Eastern Orthodoxy is different from Roman Catholicism. And then we will move on to how Eastern Orthodoxy departs from biblical Christianity.
Well, Chris, one of the notable differences is that since Vatican II, it's been a lot harder to pin down Roman Catholics in terms of what they believe, and especially with Pope Francis. You and I both know that Trent anathematized what we believe.
Right, and that is, Trent is where the dogma is, no matter what Pope Francis says that is not pronounced ex cathedra, or ex cathedra as some pronounce it. And even the modern Catholic catechism, there are things in there that are not Catholic dogma.
So when we really have to delve to the depths of what the Roman Catholic Church truly stands for, in spite of what even their modern apostate pope says, we really have to look at what the official teachings are, don't we?
Definitely, and the first debate we actually did with James White years ago, we had him debate a local conservative Baptist pastor who had gone Roman Catholic. And the guy came in talking about how he prayed to St. Martin Luther, and he was just, you know, sort of all rainbows and sunshine.
By the end of the debate, he's quoting Trent and calling us all heretics. But you have to peel a little bit of the veneer to get that. You don't have to peel the veneer of Eastern Orthodoxy. The first Sunday of Lent, the great Sunday of Lent, is when they chant the, and we have it in the video, they chant the anathemas against anyone who refuses to venerate an icon.
Yes, I saw that in your video.
And so, you know, I've been dealing with Mormons for years, and we live in a culture where it's, the knee-jerk response for a lot of people is to play the victim. And what I try to tell them is, your church, in terms of the Mormons, the Mormons, their standard works, which include the Bible, but this statement from the Pearl of Great Price carries just as much weight as the Gospels in their view.
And in that Pearl of Great Price, it's Joseph Smith is supposedly told by God that he's to join none of the existing churches because all their professors are corrupt, all their creeds are an abomination.
And I said, you know, can we simply be honest and admit that we are all making truth claims? You say that my statement of faith is an abomination in the sight of God. Can I respond to that without you saying that I'm being unfair?
Eastern Orthodoxy is doing the same thing. They're anathematizing us. But when we respond, we're being mean and hateful and nasty and all this other stuff. Now, in terms of differences between them and Rome, I think one of the crucial differences is East doesn't have a pope.
In fact, there were a number of Eastern Orthodox people who came out to hear James White preach the night before he was debating the papacy. And I can't remember right now if he was debating Robert St. Genes or Mitch Pacwa right now, I can't remember.
But anyway, he was doing one of my great debates on the papacy, and Eastern Orthodox people showed up the night before the debate at a church where James was preaching, and they showed up at the debate as well.
So it was interesting.
Yeah, well, Rome is able to distance itself from many of its historic claims, like the donation of Constantine and things like this, because their central focus is they have a pope. One of the debates we did years ago, Robert St. Genes, he said, yes, there have been 42 times popes were wrong, because other popes told us they were wrong.
And in the questioning, he was asked, how are we supposed to know a pope's wrong? And it's only if another pope tells you. But their focus of infallibility is on the pope. And when they contradict, they say, well, he wasn't really speaking ex cathedra, he wasn't really, you know, he didn't say the right words, he wasn't standing on one foot waving his hand in the air, he wasn't doing the things that we think make it official declaration.
Eastern Orthodoxy claims to have an infallible church. And so in one sense, it makes a harder target, but it also means they end up defending a whole lot of things that simply can't hold up the scrutiny.
In fact, we're gonna pick up right where you left off there. Don't forget where you left off. We have to go to our first commercial break. If anybody has a question on Eastern Orthodoxy for Pastor Jason Wallace, please submit it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back. Please do not go away.
The Mid-Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference. Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.
The debate topic, is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's church? So come join us for the sixth Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church.
This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.
Head to futureofchristendom .org.
James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.
That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries. And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration fee.
Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 discount. Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd in the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.
Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there. Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 discount off the registration fee.
I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program. The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close-circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.
We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off-site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices. From simple code-activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the SecureComm Group has it.
We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems. In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network. Whether it's a Wi-Fi or a hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.
I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners and their associates. For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.
That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.
Puritan Reformed is a Bible-believing, kingdom-building, devil-fighting church. We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone. Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image-bearing prophets, priests, and kings.
We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea. We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt Christ.
This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona. Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth. Puritan Reformed Church.
Believe. Build.
Fight. PuritanPHX .com.
Here at Iron Sharpens Iron radio, praise God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.
For the perfect custom-designed engagement ring or any one-of-a-kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step-by-step through every stage of the process and even hold a high-tech internet virtual visit using state-of-the-art jewelry design technology to serve you.
They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you. From rough design to digital model, to photo-realistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.
This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations. Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today. Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager, Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And don't forget, folks, royaldiadem .com is still offering Iron Sharpens Iron Radio 100 of the profits from any sale of jewelry to an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener as long as that listener mentions Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
So please, if you have any intention of purchasing jewelry valued at $100 or more from royaldiadem .com or having a customized piece of jewelry created for yourself or someone you love, please go to royaldiadem .com very soon and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because we have no idea when they're going to pull the plug on this amazing, mind-blowing offer where we get 100 of the profits from any sale of jewelry valued at $100 or more.
That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with our guest today, Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah. We are discussing his latest documentary, an invaluable documentary that everyone needs to view and keep the link handy to use when having conversations with loved ones who are either in Eastern Orthodox or are considering entering into it or even to further assist and further equip Christians who want to better communicate with their Eastern Orthodox loved ones on that religion.
It is such a mysterious religion where very few Protestants could honestly claim to be an expert on it. So please, in fact, as I said before, contact your Eastern Orthodox friends and have them listen to this broadcast.
If you have questions of your own, send them to ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Before the break, you were talking about one of the significant differences that Eastern Orthodoxy has with Rome is that they do not believe in an infallible papacy.
They do have a patriarch, but they believe it is the church that is infallible, not a pope. And can I ask you, how do they answer, having stated that reality that they claim to have an infallible church, how do they answer to the truth that they are not a monolithic religion?
They, as your documentary reveals, have a wide spectrum of religious views and theology and ideology and worldviews present within their priesthood. And I wasn't even aware until I watched your video that even on the left wing, they have advocates of homosexuality in the priesthood.
So how do they make the claim that the church is infallible, knowing of that wide spectrum of views within their own religion?
Well, basically, since they have a common liturgy, that's supposed to mean they have the same church. So long as you don't reject the Trinity and so long as you don't refuse to venerate icons, you can make Eastern Orthodoxy pretty much what you want.
There are bishops who will embrace homosexuality. There are bishops who will say that they are the lone bastion against sexual immorality. You've got all these different things going on out there. There are lots of divisions.
How do they respond? Generally, by ignoring you and just attack. What I've seen over and over is it seems that they think the best defense is a strong offense. And so they come back and they say, well, there's 40 ,000 Protestant denominations.
And we deal with that in the video. No, there are not 40 ,000 Protestant denominations. The number they're citing is from the Center for Global Christianity or Conwell Seminary. They count 40, they're up to about 45 ,000 denominations worldwide.
But they count each country in which a denomination functions. 580 of those are Orthodox denominations. Because you've got, obviously, the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, but you also have a Russian Orthodox, you have division within the Russian Orthodox Church here in America.
You have Greek Orthodox here in America. You have Serbian Orthodox. You have all these, you have divisions within Ukraine between the Ukrainian church that's loyal to the patriarch of Moscow and those that are trying to break off and declare themselves all the selfless.
But most, they are so ingrained that their church is united. And there's one church, and you're all divided. No, over 500 of those 40-something thousand are Orthodox. 370 of them are Roman Catholic because they count Latin mass, Maronite, and all the other different rites within Roman Catholicism once for every country in which they exist.
They count Mormons. They count anything that claims to be Christian. And Eastern Orthodox tend to lump all of us together. Either we're all a bunch of Protestant heretics or we're a bunch of papist Roman Protestant heretics.
Supposedly, the great era was with Rome, and we're just the heirs of that, and we all splinter and splinter and splinter.
By the way, when I interviewed former Eastern Orthodox priest Joshua Shuping, and by the way, I wanna urge everybody listening after this live show is over to listen to that archived recording that occurred on May 12th, 2023.
If you just type in the ironsharpensironradio .com search engine, Shuping, S-C-H-O-O-P as in Peter, I-N-G, that interview will come up on Joshua's book Disillusioned, Why I Left the Eastern Orthodox Priesthood and Church.
That was our discussion. He was talking about, in part, during our two-hour interview, the militancy of the exclusivity of Eastern Orthodoxy. And they do not accept Protestant baptism. And the only thing that he was uncertain about because of current dialogues between the East and Rome, he wasn't certain whether or not they have finally opened up an acceptance of Roman Catholic baptism.
But when you talk about the left wing of Eastern Orthodoxy, those that are embracing homosexuals as legitimate Christians, I'm talking about active, unrepentant homosexuals, would they be ecumenists? Would they open the door to Protestants as their brethren?
Or is it just that they're opening the door to anybody who claims to be Eastern Orthodox, no matter how depraved and perverse they may be?
I'm not that well-versed in terms of some of the finer points. And so my initial feeling has been, so long as you're within their church, they'll cut you an awful lot of slack. If you're outside their church, no, it's not the same.
I hear a lot of discussion about how there's supposed to be dialogue taking place between Rome and the East, and that they may actually come up with the same date for Easter and may do some other things together.
I find that hard to believe. I don't know what's gonna happen. You've got Bartholomew, who is the ecumenical patriarch from Constantinople, where there are very few Orthodox that live there anymore. I think there's 4 ,000 Orthodox surrounded by millions and millions of Muslims.
But he's, because that's the old seat of government, that's, he's sort of the first among equals, in theory. Well, he's denouncing the patriarch of Moscow, who is the actual head of over half of Eastern Orthodoxy, as promoting pseudo-religion and theologically justifying criminal behavior.
You've got Russians who are accused, I had people in the comments to the video telling me that it was completely inappropriate to have Patriarch Kirill in it, because everyone knows he's a political hack.
And then I had people telling me that everything Patriarch Kirill said was right, and that Patriarch Bartholomew is the CIA client. And, you know, there's all these divisions. But when you get them talking about us, they stand together against the historic Protestant understanding of the scriptures, and the early church understanding.
How is a Patriarch different from a Pope?
There are several of them. You have the ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople. You have Patriarchs in Antioch and Alexandria and Jerusalem and Moscow. The importance of these have evolved over time. Obviously, in Moscow, the Russians weren't converted until what, 989 or something like that.
It was the late, it was the 980s, I believe. I forget when Vladimir converted. But, you know, you listen to traditional Russians, they'll say, you know, there have been three Romes, two have fallen, one remains, and there will never be a fourth.
Rome, Constantinople, and now Moscow. Moscow's the real Rome of Russian Orthodoxy.
Now, I understand that Eastern Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox, disagree in part with both Rome and the Reformation in regard to the nature of man. They're not full-blown Pelagianists, from what I understand.
But is it, unless I misunderstood, is it that our inherited sin of Adam only will certainly lead us to physical death, and not that it has an imprint of sin upon our souls, as both the Church of Rome and Protestants teach?
We both believe in original sin, and Protestants who are Reformed make that issue even more clear by saying that before our regeneration, we're totally depraved. But where are the Orthodox on that?
Pretty much wherever they wanna be. You've got, I mean, you've got guys like John Romanides, who was very, very vocal in his attacks on Augustine. Augustine is despised by many Eastern Orthodox. Others will, others recognize his writings were committed by two ecumenical councils, and so they're not as vicious against him.
But they don't tend to think about theology in the same way that the West does, for a number of reasons. And so, yeah, they are more Pelagian. In the West, Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism were the most announced heresies in Church history.
Even by Rome.
Even by Rome. And of course, Rome ends up becoming Semi-Pelagian.
Right, and in some circumstances, even though not on paper, full-blown Pelagian.
Truly, but in the East, partially because, I'm guessing at this part, I think partially because of the history, especially with invasions from the Muslims, because of just, the structure is not as centralized in all the various things.
I mean, it is centralized on a national level. It's not centralized with a Pope. But even the Patriarch of Alexandria still holds the title Pope, by the way.
Mike, can you repeat what you just said?
The Patriarch of Alexandria has historically been known as Pope.
Really?
Yeah, I mean, it was a more generic term.
Oh, you mean like Papa, you know, like?
Yeah, right. But at any rate, the, so the Coptic guys will, you know, they love to say, you know, Pope. But they're not in communion with the Chalcedonian churches. But at any rate, I think a number of things have happened in the East that have kept them from having to deal with the sinfulness of man in the same way.
Part of it is that things that are sorta kinda believed in the West, by Rome, become the heart of their faith. Things like Thakwa, things like Barlam and Josaphat, which we deal with all three of them in the video.
Rome has removed all three of them from their list of official saints, but they are, they have been hymned. They've been included in the Eastern Orthodox hymns, which gives them the same authority, the same validity as what's in the ecumenical creeds.
They claim their church is infallible. If they adopt hymns, it's true. Well, Thakwa, Thakwa is not Orthodox, and Saints Barlam and Josaphat are a reworking of the legend of Buddha. And even Rome admits that now.
You know, it's a medieval legend that's been Christianized. Wow.
Now, when it comes to the, I'm sorry.
I should say medieval Christianization of an older legend.
Okay. When it comes to the veneration of icons, that is one of the other differences between the East and Rome, is that the East forbids the veneration of three-dimensional images, as far as I know. In other words, if you enter into an Eastern Orthodox church, and I understand that they don't call themselves that, but for sake of making our discussion easier, I know that they usually will go by the ethnic origin of whatever they are, Russian, Greek, Coptic, and so on.
When you enter into one of their houses of worship, as I have done when a relative of mine, years ago, married a Greek Orthodox woman, and one of the things that you will note is that although there are icons, flat images everywhere, even usually more abundant than I've ever seen in a Roman Catholic church, as far as images, they are not three-dimensional.
And am I right on that, that they would absolutely forbid like a statue, a three-dimensional statue being venerated?
From what I can tell, it depends on who you ask. I've heard people say exactly what you've said is the standard, and yet I've also seen photos of three-dimensional images in Orthodox churches, and some people say, no, it's not as clear-cut as some make it out to be.
Yeah, well, I've seen the icons very often. The image is raised from the surface enough where it might be technically considered three-dimensional. I don't know how they think they're escaping that. But is there any difference between the manner with which these things are venerated, which Reformed Christians, and most biblically-minded Christians, period, would say, no matter what the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic person claims, it is indeed worship because of the very definition of worship is fulfilled in everything that they do with these images.
But is there any difference in that area, not the image itself, but the way that they are venerating these things? From Rome, I'm speaking of.
Yeah, I'm not an expert on Rome or the East. I mean, I've tried to do a reasonable amount of research on both, but I don't see a big difference. They pray to the image. They kiss the image. They burn incense to the image.
They light candles in front of the image. It's a similar veneration. They try to draw the line between worship and veneration. They try to create just one big gray area that if you show any respect to a person, then that's all that they're really doing.
They're not offering the worship to God alone. Well, the second commandment is explicit. You don't make these images. You don't, and it forbids both, in the Greek Septuagint, it forbids latreia and proskynesis.
We're gonna pick up right where you left off when we come back from our midway break. Please be patient with us, folks, because the midway break is always a bit longer than the other breaks in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program, is required by the FCC to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air during our midway break.
While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. Please use this time wisely, respond to our advertisers as often as you can, and to further ensure that you'll successfully do that, write down the contact information, please, for as many of our advertisers as you can, and either buy their products, use their services, or visit their churches.
But when you can't do any of that, please at least thank our advertisers for sponsoring this show. We need our advertisers to exist, folks. The amount of donations that come in don't nearly come close to the amount of funding we need to remain on the air.
So please thank our advertisers, and also send in your questions to Jason Mollis, to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Jason Mollis right after these messages.
The Mid-Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th, in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
The debate topic, is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's church? So come join us for the sixth Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church.
This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.
That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries. And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration fee.
Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 discount. Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.
Such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world. Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.
I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area. Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism.
Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbyterian Church built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.
Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.
For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. That's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and Mattai in County Kildare, Ireland sent you.
When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina. And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York.
And the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Anthony Mathenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia. And the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada. And the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas. And the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York. And the NASB is my Bible of choice.
Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB. And tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.
If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers. One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission, to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuco, demonstrating the reliability of scripture.
To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible. This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
This book is complete with gorgeous full-size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
Originals of this work are in museums and nobody's ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before. You can have your own copy of this 44-page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.
Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org. Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.
This is Pastor Bill Sasso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sasso wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio has had a longtime partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.
CVBBS has been a family-owned book service since 1987, operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.
That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith-insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.
Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Order online at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com. Or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231.
That's 1 -800 -656 -0231. Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.
Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade. Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?
Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent and host of its award-winning podcast. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s. And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com. That's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And never forget, folks, always make solid-ground-books .com your very first stop for all your gift-giving needs. They bring back into print and publish for the first time nothing but the very finest in Christian literature dating back to the 16th century Protestant Reformation and extending forward to our modern day, including such current authors as Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
So please visit solid-ground-books .com frequently, purchased generously. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to my guest, Jason Wallace, and our discussion on his latest documentary, The Failure of Eastern Orthodoxy, we have some very important announcements to make.
If you love this show, folks, you really love it, you look forward to it every day, you look forward to the guests, the topics that we address, you look forward to winning free books written by our authors that we interview and free Bibles for first-time questioners.
If you love all that and you don't want this show to disappear from the airwaves, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.
If you wanna advertise with us, whether it's your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, your private practice, like a law firm, a medical firm, or maybe it's just a special event that you wanna promote, as long as whatever it is is compatible with what I believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but we need to make sure that whatever you want to promote is compatible with what I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.
Ever since the mandates of the federal and local governments during the COVID crisis, these heavy-handed, unconstitutional mandates that very often crippled businesses financially, sometimes wiped them out of existence, where people just had their incomes unfortunately, tragically diminished because of this, our giving from our audience to Ironsharpensironradio had plummeted and we have never bounced back.
I think that we have about a fifth or less of the donations coming in now than used to come in. So please, we really need your help more than ever before. Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.
If you wanna advertise, send us an email, chrisorensen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. I also wanna remind our listeners, as much as we are in urgent need of your donations, as much as we are in desperation over your donations, I never want anybody in our audience to help Ironsharpensironradio by cutting in to the finances that you have set aside to bless your own local church with on the Lord's Day to send us a gift.
In other words, don't give your own church less money than you normally do in order to give us a gift. Never do that. One of the main reasons this show exists is to be a platform, a helping hand, and a right arm to the local pastor and the local church that is biblically faithful.
I never wanna do anything that harms the local pastor and local church, and that includes financially. Also, if you're really struggling to survive, wait until you are more financially stable and back on your feet before you send us a gift.
The Bible is very clear that our finances are commanded to be used to support our churches and families. You are not commanded, obviously, to support Ironsharpensironradio, but if you love the show, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, and you really love the show and don't want it to disappear, please share some of that money with us.
Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, I wanna remind our listeners, if you are not a member of a Christ-honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally solid, theologically sound church, like Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, well, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people in our audience in all parts of the planet Earth who were not aware of biblically solid churches near them, and I've helped many of them find churches sometimes within minutes of where they live.
That may be you, too, if you are without a Christ-honoring, biblically faithful church home. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I Need a Church in the subject line. Also, I wanna remind our listeners that James White, my dear friend of many years, is going to be conducting a three-day Bible conference along with the Mid-Atlantic Reformation Society on Ironsharpensiron Radio.
This will be held Friday, Saturday, Sunday, September 15th, 16th, and 17th, and this will feature a debate that Dr. White is having with Dr. Gregory Coles, who identifies himself as a gay Christian. The theme of the debate is, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?
That will be held September 16th, Saturday, at 3 .30 p .m. So, if you would like to attend this three-day debate, sorry, three-day conference and one-day debate, please go to futureofchristendom .org to register, futureofchristendom .org.
The sooner you register, the less expensive your registration fee will be, futureofchristendom .org. And also, I want to urge everyone to look up the Failure of Eastern Orthodoxy on YouTube. If you type that into the search engine, that will come up.
You must see and listen to this very invaluable documentary that all people who love truth, love the Bible, and love God should watch and listen to. We are now back with Jason Wallace, our guest, to discuss this documentary, The Failure of Eastern Orthodoxy.
If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. And before I go to any listener questions, we were right in the middle of comparing Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism. And I don't know if you've completed what you were saying the last time, but a couple of the other things that I'd like to address before we move on to a comparison of Eastern Orthodoxy to Biblical Christianity, which we would call the Protestant Reformation, and its legacy.
The issue of celibacy in the priesthood, I know that there is a nuanced difference in Eastern Orthodoxy, and also the area that is really a contrast between both Rome and the Reformation about what exactly happened on the cross.
If you could either finish what you were saying before, or pick up on the area of celibacy in the priesthood.
Well, unlike Rome, Eastern Orthodox priests can be married. That was actually the case in the West up until, I believe, the 11th century. And when they tried to enforce it, you actually had riots in Milan, because it was a tradition in Milan that the bishop had to be married.
But even back in the 4th century, you had Ambrose and others who were pushing for at least bishops to be celibate. And so, in the East, you still have prohibitions on bishops being married.
Okay.
But priests can be married.
Even if a priest is unmarried, when he enters into the priesthood, he can marry later?
I believe so. I'm not clear on the nuances, and from what I gather, it varies among the various groups to some degree.
And there are some less serious differences. I know that Eastern Orthodoxy practices exclusive a cappella worship. I actually love a cappella, but it depends on what you're actually saying when you sing and who you're worshiping.
But a cappella is my favorite form of singing and worship. But I understand they have an exclusive insistence upon a cappella. And going back to a much more crucial difference that the East has with both Rome and the Reformation is what exactly happened on Calvary, if you could go into that distinction, which is probably the most significant point of all of this discussion.
Well, they downplayed Calvary to a great extent. The great emphasis in the East is on the incarnation. You'll see this in the video. There's the idea that by Christ becoming a man that this changed all of creation.
All of matter has been transformed. And so it's not a cross-centered religion. It's not that they deny it, but they do downplay it in comparison to what you see in the scriptures. The incarnation is vital to the gospel.
We have to be clear about who Jesus is. But the incarnation is not the great emphasis of the New Testament that they try to make it out to be. By stressing the incarnation, they see a way of people growing and maturing and becoming more and more divine.
Theosis is something that you'll see in the video can become, and we have a Protestant former Baptist. I think he's former Baptist, former Episcopalian, former Anglican, now Eastern Orthodox. And he's led a bunch of people up in Appalachia into the Orthodox Church.
He says that to see God face-to-face is to see him as an equal.
I remember that from your video. That was the most shocking thing in the video.
Well, they don't have clear lines of theology like in the West. And in the West, for all the exalted claims of the ascetics and everything else, you don't get that in the West. Even in Rome, you have the crucifixion as the central event.
You have Paul saying, I endeavor to know nothing among you, but Jesus Christ and him crucified. Rome has twisted that from what the Bible and the early church taught. But Eastern Orthodoxy has downplayed that in favor of this exalted incarnational theology.
And that is the reason that you mentioned earlier why Mormons will claim the writings and perhaps twist them of Eastern Orthodox fathers because they believe that they, if they are faithful Mormons, will become gods of their own planets.
So they take the Eastern Orthodox understanding of theosis as their ammunition to make them more palatable to the Christian mind, right?
Right, and when the average Protestant hears Athanasius being quoted as saying that Jesus became man, that man might become God, they don't know what to make of that.
Right.
And he did say that. We've got the quote and the citation in the video. But the East tells us that's theosis and it's the historic faith of the church. Well, Athanasius never used that term. He used a different term, theopoiesis, not theosis.
What you see is theosis is only first used by Gregory Nazianzus at the very end of the fourth century. And we have a quote from him. Instead of the crucifixion being a substitutionary atonement and there being regeneration where we're given a new heart, a new record, you know, Christ bears our sins to the cross.
And we point out, you know, that great exchange you find in the second century. In the epistle to Diognetus. This Protestantism isn't new, it's the historic faith of the church. There's other things in the early church as well.
But it's not Eastern Orthodoxy and it's not Roman Catholicism. We're not looking for perfection back then. But with Gregory Nazianzus, what you have is after Constantine and the church is at peace and then the church is declared the only legal religion in the Roman Empire, what you end up having is a melding more and more of platonic philosophy with Christianity.
And you listen to the quote that we get from Gregory Nazianzus, it sounds more like Platonism than it does biblical Christianity. It's through contemplation. And they play on some of the legends that they believe are historic.
Like Mary was miraculously born to a barren mother. At six months old, she sets her down. She takes seven steps. She snatches her up. She's too holy to touch the ground again. Until she's three years old and she's dedicated in the temple.
And she supposedly runs up the steps and she's taken by the high priest into the Holy of Holies and she lives there by herself in the Holy of Holies fed by an angel. And some Catholics will believe this.
A lot of Catholics believe that it's a nice story. Eastern Orthodoxy build their whole theology on it.
Right, I remember seeing that as well in the documentary where a priest was explaining it with visual images.
Yeah, and it's that and the writings of Pseudo-Dionysius which are fake writings from the sixth century that are attributed to the first century convert of Paul. And this is all in the video. They're the basis of the hesychastic theology of St. Gregory Palamas.
And it's basically, they basically turn the gospel into platonic philosophy where instead of guilty creatures needing to be reconciled to the creator, they emphasize the image of God, which is true. But they emphasize it in exclusion to everything else.
And it becomes a way of self-exaltation. Yes, they would say that God is involved. God is gracious and no one is other. But it is a God, it ends up sounding like Mormonism. Not because Mormonism is biblical by any stretch.
It's because this is the natural tendency of sinful man. It goes back to the garden, ye shall be as gods. That's the way I see it.
We have some listener questions. We have, let's see, Robert in Westchester County, New York, who says, unless I missed it before, I think one of the important differences that Eastern Orthodoxy has with the Church of Rome is that the Eastern Orthodox reject the teaching of purgatory.
Is that true?
Yes and no. Technically, yes. They actually did accept it in theory at the Council of Ferrara, Florence in the 15th century. They were trying to get military aid from the West. But it was rejected, it was approved by the council.
And they're thrilled that Mark of Ephesus stood against it. He was the only Eastern bishop who did. But they say he defines Orthodoxy, not the council. And they come up with all these things about how a council is actually ecumenical or not, which they create after the fact and say, well, this has always been the standard.
But you don't have purgatory in the formal sense that you have it in the West. But you do have there being ways of getting closer to God after death. And yes, they pray for the dead. And there actually were patriarchal indulgences, just like you had indulgences from the Pope that they would sell.
They would sell them in the East as well. They didn't call it purgatory, but it was the same basic thing. And when you look at the toll houses and what the church can supposedly do after you're dead to help you get to a better place, to me, it's a distinction without a strong difference.
Okay, we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, who says, forgive me if you've already addressed this, but from what I understand, another difference that the Eastern Orthodox religion has with the Roman Catholic religion is that the Eastern Orthodox reject the immaculate conception of Mary, that Mary was conceived sinless in the womb of her mother, although she somehow was sinless later.
Once again, it's a distinction without a strong difference. Since they reject original sin, they believe, most will admit they believe Mary was born sinless.
Oh, you know, see, that's something that is, maybe I misspoke earlier. I thought that they did believe in some kind of inherited effects of Adam's sin, but it only led to physical death, not to hell necessarily.
Isn't there some
Right. So they would say that Mary was born mortal, but they would not admit that she was a sinner.
But they don't call that original sin as far as Okay.
And so Mary, one of the big things for them is that they think that the immaculate conception, which was first adopted, what, 1850-some, I'm getting old. In the 1850s, I believe, was the immaculate conception, became official dogma in the West.
They think that that undermines her triumph over sin, that she is the model for ascetics. She's the model for all of us. And if you see, she ends up becoming, essentially, no one is saved apart from Mary in Eastern Orthodoxy, like in Rome.
And she becomes the gateway to God. And in the East, she became the patron saint of the empire.
Okay, well, thank you for the excellent question. We have an anonymous listener, and the anonymous listener says, I'm remaining anonymous because I am having very serious and animated disagreements with a Coptic Christian, otherwise known as Oriental Orthodox.
This Coptic Christian is insisting his priest informed him that I am misrepresenting their religion by saying they believe in meritorious works and deeds performed by humans in order to gain entrance into heaven.
He told me that his priest said that they also believe in justification by faith alone, through grace alone, and Christ alone. Is my friend misunderstanding his priest? Could his priest actually believe in the gospel?
Or what am I missing here?
I don't know the individuals involved. I can only guess. Having dealt with Mormons for 35 years, been pastor here for 25 in Utah, I've met a whole bunch of Mormons that will tell me, oh, we believe that.
You know, we believe that you're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. And then you ask them, you know, you try to flesh that out a little bit, and you find out they don't really know what they're saying.
They believe that you can become a God, and that you have to go through the temple, you have to receive the ordinances, you have to receive the Aaronic and Melchizedekian priesthood, you have to learn the handshakes, you have to do this and that and the other.
And you have, it's a works-based religion, and yet they can call black white and white black, and think they're being straightforward. So whether there's purposeful deception, whether there's confusion, I don't know, but no, Coptic Christianity does have its differences, but it's fundamentally the same.
Most, or at least a lot of Coptic priests in America actually end up going to places like St. Vladimir's, or I think maybe St. Deacon's or some of the others. I know at least a number of them are St. Vladimir's grads, which is a Russian Orthodox school.
We had somebody complain that we had a Coptic priest talking about Helvidius, it was the best video out there, giving the Eastern perspective. And they're like, if you knew anything about Eastern Orthodoxy, you wouldn't have a Coptic priest.
And it's like, he's a St. Vlad's grad, and he's telling exactly the same thing that all the others learned at seminary. What did he say you disagree with? And of course they don't have an answer.
No, so there is a rivalry then, between those in the more traditional Eastern Orthodox group with the Coptic or Oriental Orthodox.
Correct, yeah, the Oriental Orthodox are monophysites. And so there's a schism that goes back to Chalcedon.
No, not to belabor that, can you be succinct in summarizing what would be the difference there and what the term you used even means?
The question is, at the Council of Chalcedon, is the nature of, or the relationship of Christ, humanity, and divinity. The monophysites basically, and they would probably not use this term, I'm trying to make it simple, but basically the divine nature overwhelms the human nature.
Chalcedon says, no, they are two distinct natures, that they, one person, two natures forever. And the monophysites, for a number of different reasons, they would not submit to that. And so they are non-Chalcedonian.
They believe that Christ has one essential nature, divine.
By the way, you mentioned St. Vladimir's Seminary earlier, which is a Russian Orthodox seminary in New York State. I wanna let our listeners know that I have interviewed a Presbyterian who got a doctorate from St. Vladimir's, not because he was an ecumenist with the East, but because he wanted to learn as much about that religion as he possibly could, and wanted to learn those things firsthand.
And his name is Dr. Jack B. Kinnear, a retired faculty member from Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh and I interviewed him on Eastern Orthodoxy, what separates it from Rome and the Reformation.
And you can hear that on irontreppanzionradio .com as well. If you type in the name K-I-N-N-E-E-R, that will be the only interview that comes up. I only interviewed Dr. Kinnear once on April 13th in 2018.
So I think that you may benefit from that interview as well. We're going to our final break right now. If you do have a question for Pastor Jason Wallace, I would strongly urge you to send it in quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Don't go away.
We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.
The Mid-Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.
That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries. And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration fee.
Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 discount. Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd in the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.
Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there. Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 discount off the registration fee.
I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group.
And an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program. The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close-circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.
That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.
Puritan Reformed is a Bible-believing, kingdom-building, devil-fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone. Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image-bearing prophets, priests, and kings.
This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona. Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth. Puritan Reformed Church, believe, build, fight.
PuritanPHX .com.
I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the Reformed faith and to the Westminster standards should have and use the eight-volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology. Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
For details on the eight-volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com. For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.
When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co-host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Andrew Rappaport, the founder and executive director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Mark Romaldi, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Christopher Cookston, pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar.
You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work. Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.
Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show. Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.
Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers.
From Keech's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.
And finally, if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, New York. Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino and thanks for watching.
I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers. One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible. This 17th century hand-engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Rooster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent and host of its award-winning podcast. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s. And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
Welcome back. I have one more listener question for you, then we'll move on to Protestant claims. And the anonymous listener says, I am having disputes with Reformed and Protestant friends of mine who are making the claim that Eastern Orthodoxy has a pristine understanding and teaching of the Trinity that is actually in some instances superior to that which is revealed in Protestantism.
Is this just a ridiculous rumor? How do you respond to such things?
Well, I think that a whole lot of theology is ignored in some of the more popular churches out there. But, no, anything that you can find in Eastern Orthodoxy, you can find better in Reformed churches generally.
Yes, they do stress the incarnation, but it's basically something that they hype to distract you from the substitutionary atonement and everything else. And they wrap it up in all kinds of mystery that the early church didn't.
Well, it was specifically the Trinity, not necessarily the incarnation. I understand that the second person of the Godhead was incarnate, but...
Yeah, I mean, the Trinity is not dealt with in some churches. We've had...
You mean evangelical churches?
Some evangelical churches, yes. I mean, it's... I mean, evangelicalism runs its own gamut. And so there are some churches out there that don't really teach much on the Trinity. My old pastor, as a teenager, I asked him about the Trinity.
He said, the Trinity is a mystery. Does Eastern Orthodoxy do better than that? Yes.
Yeah, I think the listener may have been speaking about the giants of Protestant and Reformed theology, not necessarily your average uneducated pastor. And believe me, folks, I'm not saying that most pastors are uneducated.
I'm talking about the kind in the popular version of modern evangelicalism where there is little depth. I think he was speaking about, and I could be wrong, but about the... from academia of Reformed theology, that Eastern Orthodoxy exceeds our giants on even an issue as important as the Trinity.
I would say not at all. I think that there are some Reformed guys who have definitely been leaning towards mysticism. Some of them end up going Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. They will dress this up in terms of some of the supposed scholarship and insights.
Eastern Orthodoxy is fundamentally flawed. And whatever they have that's good in terms of Trinitarian theology, yes, there are some good things there. And yes, sometimes we're appealing to the same sources, but we aren't appealing to them as part of an infallible church.
And we're testing everything by God's word. And we're putting them in a proper understanding of history. They're viewing them as the unfolding of the infallible churches, building on that.
Well, if you could address Protestant claims, please.
Well, the thing I hear from so many of the Eastern Orthodox is, you know, your church didn't even exist before Martin Luther, 15th, 17th, 16th century, heretics, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There are a lot of Protestants who aren't really understanding of what the Protestant claims are.
In our culture, Protestant simply means you're not Catholic, and you're not Orthodox, and you're not a Mormon. True Protestantism is not a restorationist religion. We don't think that the gospel got dug out of a hillside in 1830.
We don't think that there was some new outpouring of the spirit where it was restored after some great apostasy. You read John Calvin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. He quotes the church fathers over 800 times to demonstrate that they were reading the scriptures the same way the Protestant reformers were.
Were the church fathers perfect? No. Were the Protestant reformers perfect? No. We're not looking for an infallible church. We're looking for a faithful church that will hold to the infallible word of God.
That is what is theonoustos. That is what is God breathed. And so this idea that they're the early church, and we're the historic novelty. No. What the video seeks to show is they're the historic novelty.
We stand with Tertullian on a bunch of things. Tertullian also had goofy things to say. They pick and choose what they like out of the early church. So do we. They do it on the basis of claiming an infallible church.
We pick and choose based on the inerrant word of God.
By the way, I want to really endorse a book by a dear friend, William Webster, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History. And this would even be helpful to Eastern Orthodox because it is primarily dealing with the patristic evidence that Rome has not faithfully maintained the legacy of the church fathers as they claim, and that many times, possibly most of the time, the church fathers were actually more in agreement with what would later be the Protestant Reformation.
And so since there's overlap on some of that in regard to the patristics with Eastern Orthodoxy, it may be helpful. And you could go to christiantruth .com, christiantruth .com, which is the website of William Webster.
I want you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about Eastern Orthodoxy.
No one has anything to fear from the truth but liars. The early church was not perfect, but it wasn't fully Protestant, it wasn't fully Catholic, it wasn't fully Eastern Orthodox. You had faithful people, you had confused faithful people, you had unfaithful people, you had outright heretics.
How do you sort through them? God has spoken. The Bereans were called more noble than those of Thessalonica in that they searched the scriptures to know what is true. That's the God-breathed word. Go and search the scriptures and read history for what it really says rather than forcing a narrative upon it.
Amen.
And how can our listeners watch this video other than just typing in the failure of Eastern Orthodoxy in the YouTube search engine? Is there anywhere else they can find it?
If they contact me through gospelutah .org, there's a contact page, I'm happy to help them with that or any other information that they need.
That's gospelutah .org. I want to thank you so much, Pastor Wallace, for being such an extraordinary guest as you always are. I look forward to your frequent future visits, and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.
I hope you have a blessed, safe, joyful, and Christ-honoring weekend and Lord's Day, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.