July 6, 2016 Show with Dr. George Grant on “The Church Amidst a Culture During Revolutionary Change”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this sixth day of July 2016.

And I'm very excited about today's show. I know that I keep saying that about nearly every show, I'm sorry, but this is really multiplied over many, many times over because I've been wanting to interview Dr. George Grant for many years and this is the very first opportunity that I have, thanks be to God and his providence.

Dr. George Grant, who is pastor of Parish Presbyterian Church and founder of New College Franklin and president of the King's Meadow Study Center and founder of Franklin Classical School in Franklin, Tennessee.

He is the author of dozens of books in the areas of history, biography, politics, literature, and social criticism. And today we are discussing the theme, The Church Amidst a Culture During Revolutionary Change.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens.

Iron for the very first time, Dr. George Grant. Delighted to finally be able to be on the show with you, Chris. I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing. Amen, well I really appreciate.

That. And let me, on air, introduce you to my co-host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Well,.

Hello, it's about time we got to talk to each other. It is. So great to talk with you, Buzz.

Thanks. I'm gonna steal a line from one of my elders at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who actually said this about the groom at a wedding reception that he was emceeing, but Buzz today is grinning like the butcher's dog.

He's very delighted that you are on. I'm delighted as well. Well, let me explain a little bit about why that is. Okay, sure, go ahead. But.

I'm gonna start off with a question to explain why. So, Dr. Grant, who was the first president.

Of the United States? Well, the first president of the United States was most assuredly not George Washington. George Washington was still in the field when the Second Continental Congress put together what would, for the next 15 years, be the governing structure of the U .S.

It was codified, in the Articles of Confederation. But even before the Articles were codified, they had presidents that served one-year terms. And the first president of the United States who served two terms was Virginia's Peyton Randolph.

Peyton Randolph. Well, I gotta remember that one.

Now you know how I know about you. I'm missing from the curriculum. Right, that was the Association of Classical and Christian Schools. When was that? Was that the 90s or the 2000s? I can't remember. But anyway, that particular message called Dumb and Dumber.

Well, you know how they call sinners in the hands of an angry God our national sermon? Well, your Dumb and Dumber was my family sermon, okay? It was the hit with my homeschool children. We listened to that thing over and over again.

We really liked it because we did not want to, as you said, you were in that message. We did not want to feel robbed ourselves. And I also,.

Just for the record, I also read Bringing in the Sheaves. Wonderful. Well, in fact, didn't you write hilarious about Hillary Clinton? I did. Yes, I actually did. At the.

Behest of the Bush number one campaign. Back in those days, there was a book that was floating around called Bush. It was sort of mocking George Bush. He mangled the English language. And so, a couple of the senior guys at the White House, would you be willing to do something that is similar about Hillary?

Not necessarily intended to be altogether funny, like the Bushism book. He tried to make it as humorous as possible. But at any rate, it's called Hilarious. And it was about Hillary, published in, this really dates me here, in 1992.

Yeah, I remember that. And.

I hope that you come out with a newly updated version of it. It would be a lot thicker. Yeah. I don't think there's much funny about it anymore. Right. This will actually be a massive tome now. But as I said, our topic today is The Church Amidst a Culture During Revolutionary Change.

And our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you are listening outside of the USA.

Parish Presbyterian Church, New College Franklin, and the King's Meadow Study Center

Before we get into that topic, Dr. Grant, tell us something about Parish Presbyterian Church, first of all.

Well, it's a congregation of the Presbyterian Church in America, which is the evangelical, Bible-believing Presbyterian Church. I have been a part. And we are in Franklin, Tennessee, and we've actually, we're part of a church-planting network I've been a part of, and we've been in our current location for just not quite five years.

And the Lord is just really blessed. We have seen just an extraordinary amount of growth, and we're very grateful for it. And the vision we would be, as the name suggests, we are deliberately aimed at knowing each other, being connected to each other, careful, planted.

My job is to pastor not just my congregation, but the whole neighborhood. Well, one of the reasons why Reverend Buzz Taylor, my host,.

Is smiling so much is because, once again, the Presbyterians outnumber the Baptists on the program. Yes, in fact, the PCAs. That's right, yeah. I happen to be a Reformed Baptist,.

1689 London. Confession man. But to be fair, both of us passed through those at one time or another.

Well, actually, Buzz never passed through the Reformed Baptist waters.

Yeah, I was a Fundamental Baptist once upon a time.

And he was an Arminian then as well.

Yeah, I was a Spurred Baptist.

Really? Okay.

And then our eyes were opened.

Your eyes are going to be shut in about five minutes. And you're also founder of New College, Franklin. Why don't you tell our listeners about that?

New College is a classical college along the lines of the kinds of colleges and universities that were common in the 18th and 19th centuries. So, a great books-type curriculum. And, again, intended to be small enough so that every student can know every professor and really be mentored rather than simply figures.

It's a scholarship model. And the same thing is true of Franklin Classical School on the elementary. And modeled on, really, the old covenantal discipleship.

My former church. Before moving to Pennsylvania, my former church, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, New York, has a classical Christian school, Grace Christian Academy. And I know that their motto was not—and I may be butchering it because I don't have it in front of me—but it was not just teaching children what to know, but to teach them how to think.

Yes.

And they use, in addition to Christian literature, they want the children to be aware of secular literature, especially classic secular literature, so that they can communicate and engage in the culture around them without coming off like they are just ignorant individuals and living in a bubble or something.

And they teach Latin there and so on.

Right. And that means to know the world that we are in. We're not to be absorbed by the world, but we're sent to the world, to minister to the world, to work in the world, to be ambassadors to the world, to be witnesses to the world.

And we can't do that if we don't know the world.

And last but not least, tell us about the King's Meadows Study Center.

The King's Meadows Study Center is the missional and educational arm of our ministry. We have a number of different initiatives. We help start schools, particularly in the Muslim world, that will teach a Christian worldview.

So we have three regular schools in northern Iraq, and then we have a network of schools that we're trying to plant throughout China and Vietnam. And we've got a brand new school up and going just this year in the Philippines.

So we do educational, missional work. We also have a curriculum, a sort of integrated humanities curriculum for homeschoolers. And even a lot of classical Christian schools use as the base for their history, teaching of worldview culture.

We have an emergency medical relief fund that we've created as well. And then we've got a relief fund for persecuted brothers and sisters, particularly in the Middle East, called the NUN. A number of different things.

And the website is kingsmeadow .com, for those of you listening who would like to investigate more about that. Kingsmeadow .com, and obviously the URL does not have an apostrophe after King. It's kingsmeadow .com.

We hope that you investigate more about that organization. And for those of you living in Franklin, Tennessee or visiting there, you can look up Parish Presbyterian Church at parishpres .org, parishpres .org.

The Church in a Revolutionary Moral Revolution

Well, the subject that you actually chose today, the church amidst the culture during revolutionary change, obviously a very timely subject. In fact, it could be the subject of any discussion during any era since time began, I guess.

But we are really, many of us are just amazed at how quickly the culture around us is changing for the worse in many ways. Obviously, there are things simultaneously going on in the kingdom of God that are absolutely wonderful, the spread of the gospel globally and so on.

But when you think about the fact that when Barack Hussein Obama was running for president, he was opposed to same-sex marriage. And now, not only does he heartily endorse it, we are living in a time, in that short time span, where you might lose your job if you're opposed to same-sex marriage.

You could be fired if you were to say anything against that from your biblical convictions. But tell us something about why this specific topic came to mind,.

Other than many things that are obvious. Yeah, I think it's obvious. A lot of Christians right now are reeling for all of the reasons the upcoming election, and they see dismal choices and yet there's never been a more critical time.

They look at the Supreme Court and the perilous place that we are with the court. We look at the wider culture, the sudden wickedness is now declared the new fundamentalist. Any ideas that have been normative, there's no question they're really important for us.

To be able to acknowledge that is not a temporary thing. This is a full-on moral revolution, as Al Mueller would say. And at the same time, it's not... You mentioned, Chris, we've faced this kind of thing in virtually every generation.

And the church, Hilaire Belloc, is a big thing that always survives. Has constantly been able to find ways to reach the broken, fallen world in which we live. The liberating news of the gospel of Christ.

And in fact, in some ways, this radical clarity that has come because of the moral revolution sets us apart so much more distinctly from the culture that we're actually freer to preach a unique gospel than we were when there were so many floating assumptions about civil religion and in a new day where we have what we faced just a few years ago.

I wrote a book, what I thought was the coming moral... legislating immorality. And it was the homosexual movement comes out of the closet. Now, when I wrote this 20 years ago, the Moody editors kept having conniption, and yet, looking back, I underestimated how dramatic the achievements might be of this revolutionary movement in overturning 3 ,500 years standard operating assumptions in Western civilization.

Revolutionary times, and we need to think and the approach that we're going to now take that has to be entirely different from the approach that we've had leading up to this point.

Equipping Believers for a Hostile Culture

Well, we do have a listener already from Rugby, England, Mike.

Well.

And he is in the Midlands in the county of Warwickshire. I hope I didn't butcher that pronunciation, Mike. And he asks, over here in the UK, things like the adult Bible class are quite rare. Because of that, I'm not sure our leaders are preparing their people to face up to the challenges to truth the culture.

He may have misworded that, is constantly assaulting us with. Oh, I see. Face up to the challenges to truth the culture is constantly assaulting us with. I guess he means really falsehood. He doesn't mean...

Right. Yeah, yeah.

I absolutely believe in the preaching of the gospel. If I can use the phrase, just doing that, isn't completely equipping believers to confidently stand firm. For example, what Dr. James R. White does in his church ought to be happening more than it does, perhaps, all over there as well.

Would Dr. Grant agree with that, or could he comment on that?

Yeah, I think we have got to completely rethink how we equip and train disciples. We've got to be much more vigilant in training our disciples. We've got to find ways to equip them so that they can exercise courage, because it takes great courage in this day of immediate intimidation.

But we also, I think, we've got to... This is not new. What's new for us is the fact that, at one time, we enjoyed a widely assumed sort of cultural basis that was friendly to Christianity. That's a rarity, and so, in some ways, brought back to oldness.

I just got through rereading for about the third time a wonderful book, first published about the time of the American... It was published in Dutch by Guillaume Groen van Prinsteren, who was the mentor to Abraham Kuyper, the Christian political action in an age of revolution.

And one of the things that we need for us to understand, be bold and flexible enough to allow certain past privileges to evaporate so that new opportunities are... So, for instance, right now, it's very likely that churches will see the tax-exempt status removed in the next five to ten years.

I think that that's a very real possibility. It's also going to change the way we approach it for God, for the kingdom, for self-righteousness, etc. Those kinds of questions purify the church.

Oh, thank you very much, by the way, Michael, over there in Rugby UK. We also have, from this side of the pond, we have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Why do you think America has lost its focus on its rich Puritan and Calvinistic roots, such as William Bradford, the writer of A History of Plymouth Plantation?

Well, that's a great question, Tyler. I think that we've been drifting for a very, very, very long time. And so the loss of that perspective is not new. I think the battle over marriage was lost not when gay marriage was made legal, but really and truly when we started hedging the completeness and the fullness of marriage with no-fault divorce laws, easy-divorce mindsets.

We started to erode that notion a long time before. So, bottom line, I think we lost emphasis long before we ever noticed it. The truth is, is that the revolutionaries have been harmed for more than a century, and they have laid out one revolutionary, Will Durant, and you eventually win the society.

So, the judicial robes, the clerical robes, the white lab coat of scientists, etc., the academic robes of the university. Then it's a quick and easy step to capture the rest of the culture. I will say this, though.

The Bible makes it plain that judgment begins at the house of God. The whole counsel of God with boldness and clarity, and we are discipling the generations.

Well, we're going to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you have a question for Dr. Grant, please, again, please leave your first name, your city and state or country of residence.

If you live out the side of the USA, we thank you both, Mike from Rugby England and Tyler from Mastic Beach, Long Island, for being the first two who have written in today, and we look forward to more of you joining us after this station break.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Dr. George Grant of the King's Meadows Study Center right after these messages from our sponsors. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Tired of bop store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse.

With all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's word. And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. This is Chris Zarnes. And if you just tuned in, our guest for the two hours today is Dr. George Grant of the King's Meadows Study Center in Franklin, Tennessee.

Before we return to our topic, the church amidst the culture during revolutionary change, I just have a couple of special announcements from some of those who support Iron Sharpens Iron. Christ Presbyterian Church, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Salt Lake City, Utah, has a conference weekend after next from July 15th through the 18th featuring Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The theme of the conference is Who is Jesus? And this conference includes a dialogue between Dr. White and a Mormon college professor. And also on the next day, on the 15th, or on the 16th, I should say, he is having a dialogue with a Muslim imam.

And some of the topics in this conference include Is the Jesus of Mormonism the Jesus of the Bible? Who is Jesus? The Forgotten Trinity? And a topic that is very much like our own topic today in today's program, Proclaiming Jesus in a Hostile Culture.

And if you'd like more information about this conference in Salt Lake City, Utah, you can call 801 -969 -7948, 801 -969 -7948, or go to their website for Christ Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, Utah, that's gospelutah .org, that's gospelutah .org.

And last but not least, the Fellowship Conference New England is being held August 4th through the 6th in our co-host, Rev. Buzz Taylor's old stomping grounds in Maine, in Portland, Maine to be specific, at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine.

And among the many speakers at this event is my dear friend, Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. And if you'd like more information about this conference, that I am going to make an effort to be there myself, and I hope Rev. Buzz Taylor can come with me, but that will be August 4th through the 6th.

And for more information, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, that's fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And if you'd like to join us on the air today with a question of your own regarding our topic today, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, that's chrisarnson at gmail .com, and our subject with Dr. Grant is the Church Amidst the Culture During Revolutionary Change.

Obviously, since our guest is a theologically reformed scholar, you can ask questions about reform theology or other matters connected to that, just basic questions on the Christian faith. In fact, one thing I failed to mention is that Dr. George Grant was a participant in the wonderful, really powerful DVD series called Amazing Grace, The History and the Theology of Calvinism.

And we have interviewed Eric Holmberg and Jerry Johnson on this program, and I think that that is one of the most powerful teaching series on the subject of Calvinism that I have ever seen or heard in my entire life, and that's not an exaggeration.

And I thank you, Dr. Grant, for participating in that.

Well, it was a great joy. It's a role to introduce folks. I have seen folks use that as sort of an introduction in home fellowship groups to help folks realize the beauty of the.

Doctrines of grace. Yes. Amen. Well, you know, obviously, Dr. Grant, one of the greatest difficulties that Christians face is being on one side of the spectrum, pharisaic, self-righteous, viewing themselves as so holy and clean that they don't want to dirty their hands by going near the sinners in the community around them who reject Christ.

And basically, they gather in their own evangelical or fundamentalist monasteries, and I'm not using that as a literal term, obviously, but they're cloistered together with people who agree with them and do the same kinds of things that they do and eat in the same kind of places and so on.

And then you have on the other extreme, those who have succumbed to the temptation not only to be in the world, but to become of the world. You could barely distinguish them between anyone that may be in a nightclub or any other gathering where lost people may frequent and the language they use and the hobbies they have and the things that they do and the way they dress.

You can't distinguish them from those folks. And there's got to be that balance that we as Christians tend to either fall on one side of that fine line or the other, but we have to really maintain that balance in order to be an effective witness, don't we?

Well, yeah, it's not only a balance, it's a kind of integration. It's not really détente, it's the world. It's actually going to the world with the hope of the redemption of Christ. Part of the problem is that the biblical world view, our view of the world, on the one hand, that very dwelling place, passing away, we're here but for strangers, but household, our true citizenship is in heaven, things above.

At the same time, this world is filled with, to use the prophet Jeremiah's phrase, it is filled with dangerous toils and snares. In tandem with the flesh of the devil, it makes war on the saints. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and pride of life is not of the Father, 1 John.

Now, out of the world, so we're not to be conformed to this world, neither are we to love the world, because Christ gave himself for us that he might deliver us from this present evil world. So we get this emphasis in the scriptures warning us against the world.

We're left in the world and not just left in the world, we're called to work in it, sit ambassadors to it, and we even have to go to the other most parts of it, offering a good confession of the eternal life to which we are called.

So we tend to have a kind of binary approach. What we have in the scriptures is an integration point. It's beautifully described by a powerful picture in Genesis chapter 12 when Abraham was on his long journey.

He pitched his dream to Bethel and at its place of fellowship with God. We have to have a vision of life between Bethel so that we're fully invested in our daily callings, yet it's a really powerful way of looking at the world.

And unfortunately, because we don't think about these things biblically, we opt for an either-or kind of mentality, opt out of the world and set a cooperator, and we're not to be either. So we have to go, therefore we can never be when we go all the way home.

Amen. Well, when we are spending a lot of time in the midst of this worldly culture, don't we need our spiritual hazmat suits on, or better put, the armor of God? I know personally how I really discovered how seared my conscience was, like a frog in a kettle who didn't realize he was being boiled alive.

I can remember my dear late wife, who was much more sensitive to things such as dirty scenes in movies or profanity or what have you, and I can still remember on two occasions going to the movies with her and then realizing when I looked next to me that I was sitting in that dark theater alone.

And not that there weren't other people in other seats, but my wife was missing. And thinking that she was in the bathroom, when time went on and on and on, I can still remember on two occasions walking out into the lobby, and there's my wife leaning against the pinball machine with her arms folded looking at me and saying, you stayed in there?

You stayed in there? You actually stayed in there? And, you know, I have to admit, just like a lot of Christians, we don't even realize that we are enjoying things that Christians 50, 60, 70, 80 years ago, let alone a couple of hundred years ago, they would have been horrified if you were viewing and enjoying something like we are today.

Can you have any comment on that? Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that we have to do is we have to adjust to the notion that we're not supposed to be a part of this world system. So a lot of Christians think it's just normal to go to movies and watch TV and take part in things.

The Bible makes it very plain that we need to guard our eye gates and guard our ears and guard our hearts so that we don't become feared by the flames of perdition that are flaring up all around us in this fallen culture.

But the way we do that is not radical separation. The way that we do that is by the exercise of real godly discipline. And so one of the things that I advocate is that Christians start to recover the old Puritan patterns of self-examination.

Another great Puritan exercise, one that's described beautifully by Thomas Boston, is the idea of we don't do quiet. First thing in the morning, we plug our iPods into our heads. If we're in the car driving, we've got the radio on.

The TV is on. We've just got constant... And one of the things that we have to learn how to do, again, silent... The call to quiet, thoughtfulness, to meditation is almost altogether lost. But it is one of the key tools to enable us to well-evaluate and discern what's healthy and unhealthy in the world around us.

It will reshape us in ways that we can hardly imagine. And then the exercise of self-examination... You know, just sitting down, we know that when you have a well-executed plan, then you've got to go back and you've got to evaluate, okay, how do we do?

Where do we do things right? Where do we do things wrong? It's something that my staff and I do every single Monday after the Lord's Day. We say, okay, what hymns worked? What arrangements didn't click?

What was good? What was not so good about the sermon? Was sermon one or sermon two better? You know, those kinds of things. We do that in life and we do that in business, but we oftentimes don't do it with our own heart, our marriages, our walk with Jesus, so to enable us to be in the world,.

But not of it. We do have Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana. Aaron writes, just wondering, Dr. Grant's thoughts in light of this cultural revolution, how he might counsel someone regarding the upcoming presidential election?

Better to refrain from voting at all or choosing the lesser of two evils? If one can figure that out, Spurgeon said, choose neither, in reference to the lesser of two evils. A conundrum. So I know that there are people who may not only be in the same denomination, but not only in the same church, but even in the same pew, who disagree over that issue.

Those that would view both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump as equally reprehensible and horrible choices for the future of our nation, and those who would choose the lesser of two evils route. Where do you stand on that, in the least, with this election?

Well, I think that the first thing that we have to say is that the conundrum that we are, take God by surprise, even if it does take all of us by surprise. Second thing that we have to be able to say is that how we resolve this conundrum is not, and that means that we should not resort to bombast when another believer chooses another direction.

Well, they're armed before us. And so for us to get our 90s in a knot over our brothers and sisters, simply because they've chosen a different way to solve this horrid problem than we have, is really the height.

So I think we've got to be humbled in this, and as Christians, we ought to be more vigilant than ever before in praying for our nation. We have before us two awful choices. There are lots and lots of small, non-major party candidates who will be on the ballot, and lots of my friends are looking at the possibility of voting for one of them.

Part of the problem is that the libertarian candidate is pro-abortion. So that's not an option. Then you have lots of smaller parties or independent candidacies. Many of those candidates are not.

On the ballot in all 50 states. Like the Constitution Party, for instance.

Constitution Party, which, you know, I was one of the founders of the Constitution Party. I have great affection for Howard Phillips and that movement. I also know that there's just not an easy answer here.

I may be one of the most corrupt people ever to a major party ticket in the history of the United States, and that is saying a lot. You start thinking back to Martin Van Buren or Zachary Taylor, and you know, to top that list is quite a feat.

But she is, as Robert Caro, the biographer of Lyndon Baines Johnson, has said, she is LBJ in a pantsuit. Donald Trump, when it comes to major matters from his business, you know, we're really facing a really wretched, which would you rather vote for, Caligula or Nero?

That's, that is hilarious. No pun intended regarding your book that is now out of print. The, I love the, I brought this up before, but there's a meme on the internet with a little boy crouched toward a electrical socket in the wall, and he's holding a fork, and the title on the meme or the caption on the meme says, Hillary or Trump?

Obviously, either choice is going to.

Bring great harm to the child. And the thing is, you know, people are saying, you know, no matter which one of these two candidates, and one of these two, unless an indictment comes down, and if an indictment does come down, it's going to come down on Trump, not on Hillary.

But if an indictment were to come down, then it changes the game. But otherwise, one of these two for the next four years is going to be in the White House. And so Christians are saying, at that point, we'll be able to say, eventually, under God's judgment.

My response to that is, are you kidding me? We have been under God's judgment for quite some.

Time. Just look at your pay stubs. Yeah.

Now, would you agree that obviously, as you said, we should not be bombastic or self-righteous when criticizing those that disagree with us on how to respond to the upcoming election, whether to refrain or to vote for the lesser of two evils?

At the same time, would you not caution our brethren in Christ who are voting for Trump not to be among those who are are dancing around throwing confetti and as if they are in a parade with Nebuchadnezzar, being very excited about the prospect of Donald Trump winning.

It's almost as if the driving force to it is nothing more than wanting to be vindictive against Hillary Clinton and releasing a rabid pit bull on her. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. I think one of the things that we're seeing right now is extremism across the board. I think the best response to these is to ignore it. When people are whipped up into a frenzy and they're frothing, to completely ignore it is actually more difficult for them to handle than for me to argue with them.

They want us to argue. They want us to say, oh, no, no, no. They want us, and then they'll come back. I mean, honestly, most people have never, ever in their lives seen an argument won on social media.

We don't win arguments on social media. And very likely those who are all whipped up and waving the banners of one candidate or another in this election are not going to be swayed by logic or reason. Or perhaps even though one of the things that we can do is just knock in our lives, air time in our memes, air time in our...