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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.
It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 22nd day of July, 2024.
We just had a historic day yesterday in that Joe Biden, the president of the United States, has pulled out of the presidential race and therefore is endorsing his vice president, Kamala Harris, to pick up the mantle and run in his stead for the presidency.
So obviously, that is sufficient news to drive us all to our knees in prayer, and I'm sure you'll be hearing updates even as this program broadcasts live, and please pray for our nation. Before I introduce my guest and the topic for the day, I have a couple of announcements to make.
First of all, this is a reminder to all men in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free, biannual Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon on Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.
The guest speaker for the very first time ever is Dr. Joe Boot, who is an author, a scholar, theologian, he is an evangelist, conference speaker, and founder and president of the Ezra Institute. This is a free event, as always, and not only is admission free and you're food free, and being edified by Dr. Boot's message free, and your time of rest, relaxation, fun, feasting, and fellowship free, everybody will also get a heavy sack of free brand new books, personally selected by me, and donated by generous Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom.
So if you're a man in ministry leadership, and you can get to Perry County, Pennsylvania, Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, to be more precise, on Thursday, October 10th of this year, we urge you to register for this free Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon.
Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line, and you will be automatically registered for this free event. Also, a reminder that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is in serious need of your financial support.
We had two of our advertisers, out of necessity, due to a financial crisis of their own, had to decline my invitation to them to renew their sponsorship for this program. So we are quite concerned about this, obviously, and we need your financial help urgently.
So please go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now, and you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion. We truly need your help. If you really love this show, you enjoy listening to it every day, you enjoy the guests and topics that sometimes are never heard anywhere else, you enjoy winning free books when we interview authors and you submit questions, you enjoy passing on the free downloadable mp3s to family, friends, and loved ones.
If you love all that, please help us remain in existence. Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, and then click, click to donate now to help us out of this financial rut. Well, I am thrilled to have back on the program a man I consider a dear friend and brother in Christ, as well as being one of my very favorite guests to interview on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
His name is Jerry Johnson. He's a very well-known Christian apologist and documentarian, most well-known for co-writing and creating the DVD series Amazing Grace, the history and theology of Calvinism, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary of existence pretty soon.
And today we're going to be addressing the theme, Justification by Death, Examining the False Gospel of Sentimentalism, and He is in a Better Place Now Theology. And I'm sure that many of you have experienced being at a funeral or a wake or just hearing the news from someone you know about the death of a loved one, perhaps you even see and hear it in a news report on television, and you will occasionally hear the person giving you the news saying that this person is in a better place now.
And even if you know that the person that they are referring to never made it apparent that they repented of a scandalous sinful lifestyle, or in the case of just hearing this news from a brother in Christ who is trying to put the best spin on the news that a loved one of theirs died, and even if this person made no profession of faith in Christ, they are telling everyone that they are confident that dad has now joined mom in heaven or any of these kinds of comments when there is no evidence given, or there has been no evidence given that we should have such confidence and peace over this person's death.
Well, we're going to be addressing that today with my friend Jerry Johnson, and it's so great to have you back on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, brother.
Thank you, brother, I appreciate being here.
Well, why was it that you were so compelled to address this specific topic today?
Well, before we get started, I want to address another topic, if you don't mind.
All right.
I recently, because I'm a Duvis, I heard your introduction that we interview, what is it, scholars and historians and theologians, and I thought, what about Duvis's?
Well, that is certainly a mischaracterization of yourself. Everybody who knows who you are would obviously receive that as a joke, because it's certainly not true. But go ahead, brother.
You know, my pastor is supposed to be listening today because he wanted to take notes and record all my heresies and bring it up to discussion. So, hello, Roland. Anyway, anyway, what I wanted to say was, I'm a Duvis because every year I forget my wife's birthday.
I mean, every year without fail, and I'm sitting there looking at the calendar and I know it's coming up. And then about five days before it comes up, I'm streaming like a chicken with my head.
Cut off.
I'm running around like, what do I do? What do I do? Well, Royal Diadem saved me last year, and they saved me in a big way. And I got a ring from my wife because she told me years ago, if you can't think of anything else, get me jewelry.
I like that. Really?
A woman said that? That's so hard to believe.
It's actually written in the 11th commandment and Jude chapter two and Galatians chapter seven. So anyway, they FedExed, we actually looked at different rings online. I got her ring size. They fitted it to her specifically.
They FedExed it to me and it was here before her birthday. I think like one or two days before her birthday. And she was very grateful. And so I just want to say a shout out to Royal Diadem because they saved me.
Yes, and Royal Diadem saves me with their monthly financial support. And also, for those of you who don't know, and you'll be hearing the ad coming up during our first commercial break, they are giving Iron Troupe and Zion Radio 100 of the profits from any sale of jewelry to an Iron Troupe and Zion Radio listener simply by that listener mentioning Iron Troupe and Zion Radio when purchasing their jewelry.
Their website is royaldiadem .com, royaldiadem .com. So I urge you to go to that website today if you want to kill two birds with one stone, as they say, and get a beautiful piece of jewelry while at the same time helping Iron Troupe and Zion Radio.
You can accomplish that by buying jewelry at royaldiadem .com and also just mentioning Iron Troupe and Zion Radio and we will get 100 of the profits from that sale. But thank you, Jerry, for spontaneously and voluntarily doing that.
I did not coerce Jerry to give that plug to my sponsor and I am very glad that he did.
Oh, wait a minute, you didn't give me any? I thought I was getting a free coffee!
Well, that I could promise you.
All right, good deal, good deal. Now, you had asked me, because I've been kind of beating the drum on this subject matter, which, you know, the thing is I've seen a lot on like Facebook that people will say, I want to say happy birthday to my dad who's in heaven.
Or I watched this clip on YouTube one time. It totally shocked me. But as I was watching this clip of this tragedy, this girl, she was a porn star, had died. And her friends were talking about how good of a person she was and she's now in a better place.
She actually committed suicide. And I don't know. I don't know if she's in heaven. I doubt it doesn't look good for her.
Well, obviously, if she repented before she died, because even if somebody commits suicide, sometimes they don't die instantly. And she may have repented during that if she had a time of lingering death.
So, you know, obviously, Christ saved the chief of sinners, Saul of Tartus, and he could save anybody.
Yeah. And, you know, it's the thing that kind of bothers me is I've known people that were drunks, that were drug addicts, that beat their wife, that stole any chance they could get, that would steal from somebody.
And they're dead now. And I don't know their state. I think they could be in heaven, but it doesn't look good for them. But the thing is, most folks today don't believe in justification by grace through faith in Christ alone.
They don't even believe in justification by worse. They seem now, at least the masses, seem to believe in justification by death. And I think that's the coolest thing that you could ever give anybody comfort, is the idea that just because they died, they went to heaven.
We don't know. It's all up to God.
And backing up a little bit, I'm sure you have no problem, as I don't. Maybe you'll find out I'm wrong in a minute. But I don't have any problem. In fact, I have done it, publicly wishing a loved one that I know is in heaven a happy birthday.
I have wished my wife, my late wife, a happy wedding anniversary. But I have also said she's experiencing infinitely more joy in the presence of Christ than any anniversary this earth could possibly provide.
But you're talking about people who are saying this automatically just because somebody died, whether or not they had Christ covering their sins or not.
Yes.
And it's not just—the concern that I have, which is one of the reasons I wholeheartedly agreed to do the topic, to cover the topic, is because this goes on with professing Christians.
And they—now, I'm not saying that you should go to a funeral and voluntarily approach someone and tell them as you're standing in front of the coffin, By the way, I have little doubt that your loved one is in heaven.
Or should I say, I have little doubt that your loved one is in hell, I should say. You shouldn't say that. You shouldn't voluntarily hurt someone. And on top of that, we don't have infallible knowledge of where someone is because they may have come to faith and repentance apart from our awareness.
Even if it's your own loved one, unless you're with them when they utter their last breath and they're cursing God, we don't know if we've been evangelizing them or somebody else has. We don't know what may have taken root in their heart and mind.
So, I'm assuming you would think that although we should not give people false hope and tell them, Oh, I know your mom's in heaven just because the person died, and they know that they have a heartbroken child here, we are not to do the other with certainty either.
Oh, I know your mom or dad is in hell.
Yeah, I wouldn't say that, brother. When I was 40 years old in my 40s, I should say, I asked my old pastor, I have a confession to make here. I used to be Reformed Baptist. Do you know what a Reformed Presbyterian is?
What's that?
A sanctified Baptist.
I'll accept that insult.
I used to be Reformed Baptist and the pastor at that time, he has since passed away from cancer. His name was Larry Marlin and I asked Larry, I said, Hey, Larry, what do you do if you are doing a funeral for somebody and it looks pretty good that they're not a Christian.
What do you do? Because they never made a valid profession of faith. They never had anything, any inclination towards God at all or the gospel. How do you approach that? Because you're right. You can't tell the family, Hey, he's in hell and he's burning or whatever.
You know, you can't do that. That's not being, I guess, sensitive to them. I said, so what do you do? Because I knew he wouldn't give them false hope, false assurance. And he said, all I could do is explain the gospel and hopefully they hear it.
And that was it. There was nothing else he can do. But our culture right now seems to believe that if you have an intellectual assent to God or to the Lord Jesus, My wife and I, we love these so-called murder documentaries or like A &E and stuff like that.
And we were watching one about two months ago. And the guy's rationale was, well, I'm going to be saved anyway. So I'll go ahead and murder this whole family. And I was like, you got to be kidding. This was his attitude.
You know, how is that any different than the indulgences that John Testa was selling? You know, when Martin Luther opposed him, if you believe, well, now it's if you have intellectual assent, let me say.
And a lot of people will have intellectual assent to the God of the Bible or the gospel or Jesus Christ. But in the end, they don't really believe. They believe that they're real, but they don't believe the gospel.
They don't embrace it.
Now, in this case, what you're talking about right now is the errors of professing Christians. Because obviously, many people, perhaps the majority in the world, don't look for any kind of evidence that relates to a faith.
They will just say that the person's good. You know, the world was good. The person made them happy. The person was kind to them. The person was a good parent, a good spouse. And they believe, if they believe in an afterlife, that that person will be in some kind of better place.
And if they don't believe in an afterlife, they'll just say that they're better off being unconscious or out of existence.
Oops. Sorry, I muted my mic. Wrong way. So, yeah. I mean, and that's the thing. I sit there, and I talk to people, and they're like, you know, well, she believed in God or she believed in the gospel. In fact, that porn actress I'm speaking about, I don't remember her name, but like I said, it was a YouTube clip.
And it happened, you know, probably eight, nine years ago. And she had headlined many pornographic films. She was an alcoholic and a drug addict. And she was arrested numerous times for stealing. And she was 24 years old, and she committed suicide.
Now, I don't know if she's in heaven or not. But I'm not going to give her friends false assurance that that's all you need to do. And I don't know where people are getting this from. You know?
Well, it's because it all goes back to, I think, a dominant theology that exists in Christendom today. And I'm not saying that people call it a theology. But it is a theology nonetheless, and it's a bad theology.
People exalt the priority of the feelings of others above and beyond the truth. And they want to spare the feelings of others as a far more important thing than warning them about the wrath to come if they haven't repented.
And sometimes it's just because they have a misguided compassion for someone. I mean, we should always have compassion for people who are wounded and hurting and in pain and in a trial of some kind. But we are not to give them false hope.
And we're not to encourage them in their own delusion. Because that just further fans the flames of people who believe that all you've got to do is not be the worst kind of grotesque, scandalous sinner.
And you don't have to worry about the afterlife. You know, there are people, the way they talk sometimes, you would think that if they actually put it down on paper what they believe about the afterlife, the only people in hell are Adolf Hitler and serial killers.
Right.
And of course, we know that there may be some serial killers in heaven because they repented when they were on death row or what have you.
Yeah.
But we have to go to our first commercial break. And if you have a question of your own, please send it in to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.
I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a Christ-centered, Gospel-driven church looking to spread the Gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the Gospel to the ends of the earth.
We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family. At Linbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired Word of God, inerrant in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear God's image. If you live near Linbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship.
For details, visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's l-y-n-brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the Lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself.
Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show. But today I want to tell you about one of its advertisers, Rare Document Traders, far and away my favorite source for quality Charles Spurgeon memorabilia.
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That's raredoctraders .com. Don't forget to mention you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That's raredoctraders .com. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.
I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother, Chris Arnzen, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
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We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur. In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran.
He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sense that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God. That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672. That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
Puritan Reformed is a Bible-believing, kingdom-building, devil-fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone. Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image-bearing prophets, priests, and kings.
We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea. We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt Christ.
This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona. Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth. Puritan Reformed Church. Believe.
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So please go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Jerry Johnson, and he is a world-renowned apologist and documentarian, and we are discussing Justification by Death, and we are subtitling this Examining the False Gospel of Sentimentalism, and He's in a Better Place Now Theology.
If you have a question, send it to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com and give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. A verse that immediately pops into my head, Jerry, when it comes to people that elevate the importance of sparing people's feelings above the truth is Proverbs 27, verse 6.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. Yeah, and one of the things that I have said to people when they hear about somebody, a friend, for instance, whose loved one dies, that person is dead.
There is no future opportunity to evangelize that person. This is really an occurrence of the past now, even if it's the recent past. So I don't think that when you're talking to a person, you need to bring up the eternal state of their loved one.
Of course, if you know that they were a Christian, you can definitely give them all the confidence in the world that that person is experiencing eternal bliss, indescribable bliss in the presence of Christ.
But if you don't know, you don't even have to dwell on that person. You dwell on the people who are hearing you now. And you, for instance, the pastors that I know that I have the highest respect for at a funeral, when somebody has died that the funeral is a memorial for, they will not dwell on the person who died necessarily, especially as far as their afterlife.
They will dwell on the need for everybody listening to repent and believe upon Christ.
So you would agree with that?
Yeah, just like the person that died, if they truly died in a state of grace, they had genuine faith. Yes, I would say you're right. You should dwell on the people that are there, but you can give them assurance at that point.
But what gets me and what I see as a cultural phenomenon, because you know, I hang out at the Moose Lodge quite a bit, and I always hear, oh, I want to say happy birthday to my dad who was in heaven. Well, your dad, I'm sorry, he didn't believe, he didn't repent.
I mean, it doesn't look good for him, but you look at the idea, well, he believed in God, well, the demons believe in God and tremble. So it's not evidently not a salvific belief. And so I think my dogs are fixing to come into my office.
They like to come in here and make sure, see what I'm doing. I've got a dog that is very sweet, but she is about the most mischievous dog you have ever met. She chews everything. We keep hoping she'll outgrow it.
She hasn't yet.
That dog needs to repent and believe. The thing that strikes me about the he's in a better place now theology is that's just as much typically a heretical works-based understanding of theology as the other extreme where you have someone being fed a lie like either from the false gospel of dogmatic Roman Catholicism, where people are told that if they are absolutely certain that they are going to heaven when they die, that's the sin of presumption that we're always to be doubting or questioning whether or not we will go to heaven.
That's horrible and wrong. And the religion of the cults and world religions that teach that you have to jump through all kinds of hoops and be on a works righteousness treadmill your whole life and you never know for certain where you'll be when you die until you open your eyes after death.
That's one extreme. But it's still a works righteousness idea that if you say that you know someone you love is in heaven because they were compared to many people, if not most people, just a nice person.
That is also somehow a marriage of eternal life in heaven.
They did more good than bad.
Yeah, there's a scale.
Yeah, I will tell you this. I was working out the other night and an event hit my mind that, you know, I was listening to a sermon and an event hit my mind that happened like 25 years ago. We lived up in the mountains at the time, all right?
And we had a wraparound deck and my oldest son and my daughter had got this little pup tent and they wanted to sleep out on the porch in the pup tent. And I thought, well, you know, they can't get harmed or I'm going to leave the door open.
If they want to sleep out there, that's okay with me. Well, about three o 'clock in the morning, my daughter woke up and she didn't know where she was and she started screaming. And so needless to say, I jumped out of bed.
I ran downstairs and I grabbed her and I held her and I said, hey, Karis, you want to sleep in the tent? You're out on the front porch. And she was pretty inconsolable at that time. And so I took her back upstairs to Tracy and mine's bed.
I laid her in the bed and I let her sleep with us. Yes, I left my son out on porch because he was fine. He would sleep through a nuclear war. I swear that kid would. And but anyway, I thought about that as I was working out and I was able to help my daughter at that time.
But there's going to, you know, there's a day I'm not going to be able to help her. And that is on that day. And she's going to wake up, you know, or some people are going to wake up and they're going to be in hell and they're going to start screaming.
And there's nothing anybody can do for them. You know, they rejected the gospel. First off, I did want to actually have it on number seven on my list. But I wanted to talk about the age of accountability.
Because this was something we had to deal with when we were doing the Amazing Grace documentary. Because people would ask me, well, what do you do about people that never heard the gospel? The thing is, people do not go to hell because they have not heard the gospel.
People go to hell because we're born sinners. We're totally depraved. Every single one of us, you, me, R .C. Sproul, Joe Biden, Donald Trump. I don't care who it is, deserves hell. And I liked what Dr. Kennedy said when I interviewed him for the Amazing Grace documentary.
D. James Kennedy.
Yes. He said there's going to be a lot of people in heaven that don't deserve to be there. And there's going to be a lot of people in hell that they deserve to be there. Now, I probably just flattered his quote.
In fact, everybody who's in heaven doesn't deserve to be there, and everybody in hell deserves to be there.
So this age of accountability, it's something that when you have the belief that people need to hear the gospel or they automatically go to heaven, that would make abortion doctors the greatest evangelist of all time.
In fact, it would be cruel to send out missionaries. If some Aborigine in the darkest jungle of Africa never heard the gospel, then that would be better than if he heard the gospel and rejected it.
In fact, that very thing was something that I confronted Father Mitch Pacwa with, who is a Jesuit priest, a really nice guy, wonderful guy, brilliant guy. He debated James White a number of times, and I orchestrated two of those debates.
But one time when I was filling in for Andy Anderson on the radio station I worked for for 15 years, WMCA 570 AM in New York, which still exists, a Salem media affiliate, largest Christian radio network in the world.
I was filling in for the talk show host, Andy Anderson, before I had my own show. And I had both James White on and Father Mitch Pacwa to promote the debate that they were going to be having. But the theme of the interview was on Islam, because both of them have a very thorough knowledge and expertise of Islam in the Quran and the Hadith and so forth.
And I said to Father Pacwa that your catechism teaches that Muslims adore the same one true God as Christians. And he said, oh, yes, I believe that. And I said to him, why would a Muslim, in your opinion, go to hell?
Well, if they had significant adequate knowledge of the Christian faith and they knowingly and consciously rejected that, they would be held accountable and go to hell. So I said to him, well, why do you believe in sending missionaries to Muslims?
He says, oh, because they need Christ. And I said, why do they need Christ? You're putting them more in jeopardy by giving them the opportunity to hear the good news of Christ and reject it. Of course, Roman Catholics have a different idea of what the good news is anyway.
But I don't know if Father Pacwa, I don't think he is a dishonest man. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he really didn't understand the dilemma that he was in. Because he kept saying, you know, I don't understand.
We need Christ. Everybody needs Christ. And I kept saying, yeah, but according to you, the only way a Muslim is going to hell is if he understands Christianity and consciously rejects it. So that's just to flesh out what you were just talking about in a specific example.
Yeah, I was at a church at one time. It was not a Reformed church. They were pretty Arminian. And I can remember their guest speaker that they had said, talked about the Aborigine and I think they're actually from Australia, but he said the deepest, darkest jungle in Africa.
And he said, as long as they're a good Aborigine, I believe they'll go to heaven. And after the sermon, I said to him, but Christ made it clear that he was the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father, but through him.
And he looked and he said, yeah, you're right. It's like that thought had never crossed his mind before. And, you know, the thing is, we're either going to believe Christ's words there or we're not. This age of accountability, when you reject total depravity, which even your most rank Arminian would acknowledge.
Now, I would believe that they don't take it to its logical conclusion. But even your worst rank Arminian would say that, you know, that you have to have Christ. So why can they not connect the dots? I don't know.
If you point it out to them, they can. But Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ, is the only way to the father. There's not multiple ways. If you're a good Aborigine or whatever you are, that doesn't make any difference.
You have to go through Christ and Christ alone.
Now, R .C. Sproul had a sermon that he titled What About the Poor Innocent Native in Africa? And at the very end of the sermon, and I hate to be what's what's that word they use when you're ruining the end of a movie?
Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Well, at the end of that sermon, R .C. Sproul said the reason that there will be no poor, innocent natives who die and are in heaven is because there are no poor, innocent natives.
And he was stressing the word innocent. There is no one who is innocent. And like you said, when the person is standing before Christ on Judgment Day. When they're asking Christ, why are you sending me to hell?
He's not going to say because you didn't believe in me. He's going to list all the sins that they committed, if he even needs to do that. And they are going to hell because of their sin. And just as we believe that salvation through meritorious works of the sinner is a heresy, a damnable heresy, and so is the gospel of salvation by ignorance, which is what we're talking about right now.
Right. When you believe in the age of accountability, as I was saying before, the abortion doctors would be the greatest evangelist of all time. The problem is you're going to be inconsistent at that point with what the Bible says, and you're going to have to create a whole superstructure of theology that is not biblical.
Right. And the age of accountability, just because there may be listeners who don't know what that term is, that is the teaching that until you reach a certain age in your childhood or adulthood, depending upon what religion it is, you are safe in the eyes of God.
Not necessarily saved, but safe in that God is not going to hold you accountable for your sins if you are too young. That's basically the age of accountability. Am I right?
Yeah, yeah. And you know, if you look, I'm reading through the Old Testament right now, and this morning I was actually reading the first four chapters of Deuteronomy. I can't even say it. And it was talking about the children of Israel going into Canaanite villages and killing every man, woman, and child.
Did those children have the age of accountability? I mean, the problem is they weren't guilty before. They might not have been guilty before a bar of man, but they were guilty, as all of us are, before the bar of God.
And we're all sinners.
Yeah, you just reminded me of the Mountains Meadow Massacre, where Mormons in the 1800s killed everybody in a wagon train heading west, passing through Utah, and they killed all these non-Mormons. But they spared the lives of the children eight years and older and took them and adopted them because they were of the age of accountability, and they would have gone to hell otherwise, or something of that effect.
But anyway, we have to go to our midway break right now. Please, if you have a question, submit it to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.
Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.
I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan.
Area.
Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight-volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.
Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.
For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. That's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, from a tie in County Kildare, Arlington, sends you.
Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar.
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Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers.
From Keech's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.
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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
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I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a Christ-centered, gospel-driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth.
We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family. At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired word of God, inerrant in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship.
For details, visit Lindbrookbaptist .org. That's L-Y-N-Brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the Lord's blessing.
And the knowledge of himself.
If you love Iron Sharpens Iron radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers. One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org. Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.
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You need to read.
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Before I return to my conversation with Jerry—I almost said Jerry Bridges—with Jerry Johnson, Jerry Bridges is now in heaven as we speak, but Jerry Johnson is still trudging through life here on earth.
Before I return to my conversation with Jerry Johnson, we have some important reminders.
For you.
As I said in the outset of this program, folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to go off the air, we really need your help. We had two advertisers who, out of necessity because of their own financial crisis, had to decline my invitations to them to renew their advertising contracts.
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We really need your help. Go to www .irontripandzioneradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful, Christ-honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, no matter where on the planet Earth you live, I have helped many people in our audience spanning the globe find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, that are biblically faithful.
And that may be you, too. No matter where on the planet Earth you live, if you are without a biblically faithful church home, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.
That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Jerry Johnson, the renowned apologist and documentarian. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
And we do have a listener for you. We have Dale in Seaford, Long Island, New York. And Dale wants to know, what do you think of these so-called Christian theologies that teach that people will have a second chance after death to accept Christ, some kind of postmortem evangelism going on?
And I've heard about that existing in some churches. Yeah, actually, I have, too, Jerry. I don't know if you knew that there is a version of that that is taught by Tony Evans, who recently resigned from the ministry.
But I believe this was the very thing that caused John MacArthur years ago to break fellowship with him. He had a theology that he developed, or perhaps an eschatology, called transdispensationalism, nothing to do with transgenderism, folks, transdispensationalism, where people who were ignorant of the gospel, like you were talking about earlier, they had a second opportunity after death to embrace or reject Christ.
And of course, you do have the false Roman Catholic teaching of invincible ignorance, which teaches that if you don't have sufficient understanding of Christ and the gospel, you will not be condemned.
But anyway, go ahead, Jerry. What do you think about this idea of the second chance after death?
Yeah, brother, again, I would like to see where that's biblical, because I don't see it. So I would say that is a goofy doctrine. I mean, that's all I could say about it. It sounds goofy. I mean, that's it.
I don't know what else to say. You know, the church has maintained that it's appointed to all men once they die, and then comes the judgment. It doesn't say that there's a second opportunity to receive the gospel.
In fact, I would maintain that those who are in hell, they probably don't like being there, but they're not going to repent and believe anyway.
I think you can remove the word probably from that sentence. They definitely don't like that.
All right, all right. Yeah, and you know, I have never heard of that. I'm sorry, I'm not a big follower of Tony Evans. I never was. But I mean, the only thing I could say is that's goofy. That's not in Scripture.
But see what happens when you teach a doctrine like the Age of Accountability, then you're going to create an entire superstructure of theology that's not biblical.
And one thing we know is biblical is Hebrews 9, verse 27, and just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.
Yeah, so I don't know where they're getting this from, you know, I couldn't even guess. It's a thing, I've seen it a lot, they try to defang God. You got to remember, God's mercy, God is merciful, but he's also a God of justice.
He's also a God of anger. He's also a God of wrath. He's just as much a God of love as he is a God of wrath. And unfortunately, a lot of the church doesn't believe that, that they have an image of God, that he's some kindly old grandfather in heaven who winks at sin, and he doesn't.
There is a consequence for sin, whether it's laid on Christ, or it's laid on the sinner. Al?
Okay, we have Laramie in Toronto, Canada, and Laramie asks, please explain how we can convince those that approach us that say a loving God would not send people to hell, and therefore we are being far too harsh and cruel in our theology.
It is appointed once to die, and then comes the judgment. I am the way, the truth, and the life. How can you convince somebody of that? I don't know. I mean, I think the only person that convinced them is the spirit of God himself.
And so, you know, you could sit there and you could argue for the existence of God, but when the final analysis comes, all you're going to do is convince people that maybe some type of higher being exists.
Unless the spirit of God illuminates the soul and causes that person to be born again, they're not going to believe the Word of God.
Right, and doesn't this have to do a lot with that if God were to just let everyone, regardless of their faith and repentance, he would welcome them into heaven along with those that even suffered in the name of Christ and so on, uh, that this would lack justice and God is a perfectly just God?
Doesn't that have a lot to do with why God is not—his goodness does not contradict his other attributes?
Yeah, his attributes are consistent. He's consistently just. He's consistently merciful. He's consistently wrapped, you know? So, whatever it is, but yes, if Christ suffered and you receive him, but he still lets people go to heaven that didn't receive him, then what would that say for God having Christ crucified unless we all go to heaven?
And we know that there's a hell because Judas was there, been better for him if he had never been born. Um, there are numerous passages that you could point to that talk about hell. In fact, Christ talked about hell more than he talked about heaven.
And I was a young Christian and I had this, uh, we were at a pastor's conference and this one pastor said to me, if we really love people, we will tell them about hell. And I believe that, you know, and that's what Christ did.
And there was a lot of people who didn't receive it. The Pharisees didn't receive it. You know, there were there. So there were a lot of them, a lot of the Jews, he came onto his own, but his own received him not, you know, they, they, they embraced darkness instead of the light.
Christ did not die for them. In fact, he even says, they asked him, tell us plainly, are you the Messiah? And he said, I already told you. And you do not believe that is because it was not for you. My sheep hear my voice and they know me, you know?
So why does God choose one person and not another? Why did God choose Chris Hansen and not Adolf Hitler? I don't know. I know why he didn't choose Chris Hansen. No offense, brother, because Chris is, Chris is not noble.
Chris is not righteous. He needs Christ. And that is what all of us need.
Amen. Let's see, we have a Lemuel in Spanish Fork, Utah, who wants to know, I know there is much debate and dispute amongst brothers in Christ as to the eternal state of babies who die while still in infancy.
I was wondering what you two believe. Well, I could tell you before you start, Jerry. I'm one of those rare Reformed Baptists that believes and agrees with Charles Spurgeon that infants who die while in infancy are of the elect, that God would not allow them to die while in that state unless they were still, unless they were of the elect.
Because, not because they are perfect, not because they don't have the sin of Adam, but because wherever I see a description of people being cast into hell, they are going there because of actual active and willful sin that they have not repented from.
And so I'm not alone in this. Spurgeon did teach that. And I'm not saying that I hold that to such a core belief that my brethren who disagree with me are heretics. But it seems to me that the most prominent view amongst Reformed people is agnosticism on this.
They'll just say, well, we know that there are elect infants, but we don't know whether all infants who die are of the elect. So they'll just claim ignorance on it. So how do you explain that?
Brother, I would say because we're all born and conceived in sin, that we're guilty of hell, we're worthy of hell.
Right, that is without question. Even Spurgeon believed that about babies.
I would say I think Spurgeon was wrong on this issue.
All right, show's over, folks.
You know, the thing is, I know that there's not going to be a single person in heaven that deserves to be there. And there's not going to be a single person in hell that doesn't deserve to be there. So that's the way I would answer it.
You call it ignorance or agnostic, but I don't know. The thing is, I'm not going to make that judgment. I don't know. Could they all be in heaven? I sure hope so. Could they all be in hell? I don't know.
I know that because of the sin of Adam, they're worthy to go there, but they don't deserve heaven. So, I mean, whatever God wants, I don't deserve heaven.
And we have somebody, let's see here. We have Rodrigo in, let's see, where is Rodrigo from? Rodrigo is from Bayside, Queens, New York. And he just is correcting me. You said earlier, the children at the Mountain Meadows Massacre were spared by the Mormons who were eight and younger for a wrong reason.
They were spared so that they couldn't be eyewitnesses. They would be too small to accurately give an account of what happened. Okay, I'm sorry if I misrepresented the situation. I was really going off memory, and I guess it was faulty.
But can you really reiterate and clarify why this is so important? And I can say with certainty, it has nothing to do with you or I having a cruel bent in our hearts where we want to rob people of some kind of peace of mind and joy when a loved one dies.
It's like we are bursting their bubble, if you will, that they are taking comfort in that person being in heaven for reasons that are not biblical. But the Bible never gives us the liberty to offer hope based on falsehood.
And isn't that really aren't we to love God and his truth even more than people's feelings?
Now, when I see a post on Facebook, I want to say hello to my father who's in heaven or happy birthday or whatever. And I happen to know I knew their father. And I mean, the chances that he's in heaven, it doesn't look good.
But ultimately, I don't know. But I only immediately begin typing on my keyboard. Hey, your dad's in hell. You know, I don't do that. You know, but what I'm saying is we've got to be so careful that we especially at a funeral, we don't give that false hope.
You know, we need to present the gospel. If you pay attention to my Facebook page, many times I will put on there something about that false hope. And, you know, I just want people to know that it's not even an intellectual ascent.
In fact, that leads us into the next subject matter. What is true faith? And brother, we're getting towards the bottom of the hour. Are you going to have to break for a commercial?
We have one more break that's going to be in less than 10 minutes. Why?
In less than 10 minutes? All right. That's enough time. Because I wanted to introduce that subject matter. What is true faith? Now, let me tell you what really brought this about. It was John MacArthur's book on the lordship controversy.
And the gospel according to Jesus.
Which is the first in a series of books that he did on that.
What I believe, and I actually agree with John MacArthur on this, because I saw it many times when I was a southern Baptist with a brain full of mush. All right. Many times you would go into a church, and you see this on that documentary, the A &E documentary that my wife and I watched.
They believed that they were eternally secure. There was actually an old ditty, free from the law, a blessed condition. We may sin as we please and still have remission. If you believe that you can do that, that is a doctrine straight from the gates of hell.
You are not believing the true gospel. And so, we were watching that murder documentary, and that guy was reasoning. Well, now that I'm eternally secure, I can murder this whole family with impunity. And what he had done was he had given intellectual assent to a few facts about the gospel, and that was it.
And he didn't believe Jesus was Lord. He didn't believe that he shouldn't commit these sins. He believed that he could violate the Ten Commandments, and they had no bearing on him.
Whatsoever.
And this was the guy, I'm sorry, he murdered a whole family for this reason, or as just justification, that he could do it because he was eternally secured. And I hate to tell that man, no, you can't.
A true believer is not going to do that, which leads us to the issue, and this is what I like to say, justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. That is indisputable. But it is a life-changing faith.
If you don't have a life-changing faith that leads you into the direction that Jesus Christ is Lord, I would question that faith. And I had a friend of mine, he read John MacArthur's book, Gospels According to Jesus, or whatever it was, I read it 25 years ago.
And he was adamantly against it because he said, well, that's introducing a work salvation. And I used to tell him, John, no, it doesn't. It's not introducing a work salvation. Here is what he's saying.
True faith is life-changing faith. And he just couldn't see that. He wanted to maintain justification by grace through faith in Christ alone, and I agreed with him on that. You know, but the idea that you could be saved and do whatever you want to do, that's not the gospel.
And it's not in the Bible anywhere. There's no example that even remotely comes close to something like that. And, in fact, the irony is, you will have these guys, a lot of them are in independent fundamentalist Baptist King James only churches.
Now, not all, I have to be very clear, I don't want to be guilty of slander and broadbrushing. There are independent fundamentalist Baptists who agree with us on the necessity of repentance for salvation.
Repentance from sin toward God or toward God from sin. But there are some who actually say it's a damning false gospel to say you must repent. The irony of that is, what do they want those who believe in that to do?
They want us to repent from it. They want us to repent. It makes no sense. It's inescapable that you have to believe in repentance, because even if it's a belief that you believe is heretical and damnable, well, what are we supposed to do about that?
We have to repent from it, don't we? So there you go. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place with that false theology that you have. Well, we are going to go to our final break right now. And if anybody has a question that you'd like to add of your own, send us an email pretty quickly, because we're rapidly running out of time.
ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.
James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.
Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.
He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one-time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.
Who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have. For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Anthony Uvino, founder of thereformrookie .com and co-founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics and staff member with the Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight-volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis, as well as historical and systematic theology. Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
For details on the eight-volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com. For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.
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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur. In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Libel remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran.
He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sense that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God. That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver.
Them.
Chris Arnzen here. I am forever grateful to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for their generous financial support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. But that's not the only reason I love them. CVBBS .com carries the finest in theologically reformed literature from 16th century classics like Calvin's Institutes, 17th and 18th century Puritan treasures like the works of Jonathan Edwards, 19th century volumes by the Prince of Preachers, Charles Spurgeon, all the way up to the 21st century with the best of R .C. Sproul, Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom and more.
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That's CVBBS .com. Enriching minds and maintaining the theologically reformed influence of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio through their financial support. Now shipping worldwide. And don't forget folks, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is also paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.
If you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the United States, please call my dear friend, going back to the 1990s, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law.
No matter where you live in the United States, call him at 1 -800-NOW-HURT, 1 -800-NOW-HURT or visit his website 1 -800-NOW-HURT .com, 1 -800-NOW-HURT .com. Please tell Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, that you heard about his law firm Buttafuoco and Associates from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I also want to inform you that tomorrow I'm very excited to have a first time guest, Joel Littlefield, who will be addressing his new book, The Kingdom-Minded Pastor, How Pastoral Partnership Advances the Gospel—I'm sorry, Advances the Kingdom.
The Kingdom-Minded Pastor, How Pastoral Partnership Advances the Kingdom. And that's tomorrow, the 23rd of July, here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Well, we are now back with our final segment of today's show with Jerry Johnson, and we are, in essence, critiquing the prominent gospel of sentimentalism.
Obviously, nobody would call it that, other than what we are describing as a gospel of sentimentalism in our own words today. But people are guilty of things that they aren't necessarily conscious of.
And how do you minister to people? Because this is a big part of this whole thing. We both know that we can't lie to people and give them false reasons for having peace of mind after the death of a loved one that has given no evidence that they have believed in Christ.
But at the same time, how do we give comfort to them in the midst of grieving a situation like that? You know, there are parents whose rebellious teenagers die of drug overdoses or in the midst of drunk driving, and they may have been murdered in a bar fight, in a nightclub, you know, in the midst of their rebellion.
It could be a whole host of things. It could be their grandfather or grandmother who they loved dearly, but the person, even though they were kind and generous, never gave any evidence that they believed in Christ.
How do we give them comfort?
Brother, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. The thing I do know is, if they died without Christ, we can't give them false hope. So, like I said, I've done a couple of funerals, and you had mentioned somebody dying of a drug overdose.
I knew a kid that read Puritans, but he would tell you, I know what they say, but I haven't embraced it. He died of a drug overdose. And when I was doing his funeral, I was saying, here's what he said he believed, you know, and that's it.
How can I give them comfort? I'm just there for them. I learned a long time ago that sometimes it's better just to say nothing, just be there for the loved ones. And when they ask you, you tell them the gospel, and that's all you really can do.
I mean, you can't give them false hope.
Well, I don't know. If they're Christians, you can assure them that when they are in heaven themselves, there will be no crying and mourning and grieving. Their will will be in perfect harmony with God's will.
And so the time of mourning will come to an end when they themselves are in heaven. He will dry every tear from their eyes. And we can also assure people that the judge of all the earth always does what is right.
And one of the reasons why Arminians are typically very inconsistent is when a loved one dies without Christ, does that person typically get driven out of their minds with guilt that they didn't evangelize that person one more time, that they didn't evangelize them enough, that they didn't evangelize them with enough love?
And you could go on and on and on with the things that we could have done. Typically, an Arminian is blessed with inconsistency because they don't typically do that. But if their theology was true, the logical conclusion would be that they must share the blame of that person spending eternity in hell.
Because if every single human has the potential to receive Christ after it's been adequately presented to them, why shouldn't we all share in the blame of them rejecting it? We're not perfect when we present the gospel to people.
Yeah, and brother, again, that is a question that I don't know the answer to. I know what we're called to do. By the way, Dr. John Gerstner, he had done a lecture years ago, and he said, if I'm in heaven, I'm going to be changed.
How can I enjoy heaven, seeing my wife or my mother or whoever, a loved one suffering in hell? And he talked about how he's going to be changed. He's going to be justified. He's going to be having a new body and a new mind.
And he's going to sit there and look at his mother suffering in hell, and he's going to see God's justice served. And he said, even though I love my mother, you know, I will know it's right if God's justice is served.
And of course, we don't know that those who will be in heaven will see that. But yeah, I mean, who knows? God may just completely remove that from our minds. We don't. Yeah, I don't. I mean, I love Dr. Gerstner.
He's one of my heroes. But I don't know if I agree with him that we'll actually be witnessing people burning in hell when we're in heaven.
I don't either. But I know that if you look at the story of, you know, the rich man and Lazarus, Yeah, rich man. Yes. And the rich man and Lazarus, I was having a senior moment for a second. So I'm sorry about that.
But the rich man could see, and he asked Father Abraham, could you even dip your finger into water and cool my tongue?
And so we know that they could see in heaven. We don't know if they could see the other direction. We don't know that.
And we also know, although that story is very rarely used, as far as I have experienced, as a proof of unconditional election. But I use it that way because when the rich man is begging Abraham to send Lazarus, to raise him from the dead and send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them so that they could repent and not spend an eternity in hell with him, meaning the rich man, Abraham says they have the prophets and let them hear them.
And if they have the prophets and still do not, they still will not believe even if one were to rise from the dead. So obviously, that is a not only teaching unconditional election in a roundabout way, it's teaching total depravity that even the witnessing of a resurrection, somebody being raised from the dead, if somebody is lost and rejects the oracles of God, they're not going to believe no matter what happens.
Right. You look at the children of Israel. I mean, they saw all those wonderful. Miracles coming out of Egypt, and they immediately when they get to the other side of the Red Sea, woe to God that we were back in Egypt.
They wanted to be back in the house of bondage. Why? I don't know. You know, I don't know. But God didn't honor them at all with the faith that he gave Abraham. So.
And I wanted to look up the verse because I was kind of butchering it there. But he said to him, meaning Abraham said to the rich man in hell, if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.
Right. So there goes their charismatic movement, doesn't it? With all their miracles, you know, even if you see a miracle, there are going to be people that say, hey, that's not of God.
Like the Pharisees.
Yep. And what they need is they need to have their heart changed and that they can't do on their own. That can only happen if God chooses them and elects them to be a recipient of his grace. You know, so.
By the way, going back to the the heartache that people have when they experience the death of a loved one, when they are convinced that that loved one is lost. I am so inspired by a dear friend of mine, the woman that led me to Christ, actually, that she boldly evangelizes her children.
And one of them has certainly come to saving faith or she has six adult children, but she warns them that if they die without Christ, when she is in heaven, she will not be mourning over their their eternity in hell.
She will be doing nothing in heaven but rejoicing and praising God. And they cannot count on mom putting in a good word to God on the other side of the dirt. She is not going to have an eternity grieving over them.
And so that is just a part of her boldness when evangelizing them, because she is far more concerned with their eternity than their feelings.
Yeah, and that is true. You know, facts don't care about feelings, and that's something we need to tell people that they need to understand that the fact is, just like that story I told you about my daughter screaming in that tent, you know, daddy was there to help you when you were little.
But when you if you wake up screaming and you're in hell, there's nothing I can do. It's not up to me.
Well, I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we run out of time.
One thing I really want, and I don't know, we're never going to overcome this, but this whole idea that people who die automatically go to heaven, that is something that we need to get rid of this justification by death.
The second thing is, what is true faith? We need people to understand that, yes, justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, but it is a faith that is life changing. So those would be the two things I really want people to understand.
And I know your listeners do, or at least I hope they do. Yeah.
Well, I want to make sure that our listeners know, I know that you no longer are running Nicene Council. Are the wonderful videos, documentaries, and other materials that you once had available, or can people still get a hold of these things?
You know what, brother? A lot of them are on YouTube and on Rumble. And if people like Amaze the Grace, I happen to know the whole things on YouTube. There are actually numerous sites. I tell people just put it out there.
I don't care. You can monetize it. I don't want any money from it. Just whoever can watch it. I know the Marks for the Colts is out there. The one on Charles Finney, Beware of False Prophets is out there.
The Late Great Planet Church is out there. You can just watch them and hopefully be strengthened by them.
Great. And by the way, one of my favorite interviews is my interview with you on exposing the heresies of Charles Finney. If anybody wants to hear that, it is archived at irontreppanzionradio .com. Just type in Finney in the search engine, F as in Frank, I-N-N-E-Y.
Well, it's been a joy, as it always is, interviewing you, Jerry. And I look forward to your many future returns, God willing, to Iron Treppanzion Radio.
Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.
And I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.