July 22, 2024 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Justification By Death: Examining the False Gospel of Sentimentalism”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 22nd day of July, 2024.

We just had a historic day yesterday in that Joe Biden, the president of the United States, has pulled out of the presidential race and therefore is endorsing his vice president, Kamala Harris, to pick up the mantle and run in his stead for the presidency.

So obviously, that is sufficient news to drive us all to our knees in prayer, and I'm sure you'll be hearing updates even as this program broadcasts live, and please pray for our nation. Before I introduce my guest and the topic for the day, I have a couple of announcements to make.

First of all, this is a reminder to all men in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free, biannual Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon on Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.

The guest speaker for the very first time ever is Dr. Joe Boot, who is an author, a scholar, theologian, he is an evangelist, conference speaker, and founder and president of the Ezra Institute. This is a free event, as always, and not only is admission free and you're food free, and being edified by Dr. Boot's message free, and your time of rest, relaxation, fun, feasting, and fellowship free, everybody will also get a heavy sack of free brand new books, personally selected by me, and donated by generous Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom.

So if you're a man in ministry leadership, and you can get to Perry County, Pennsylvania, Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, to be more precise, on Thursday, October 10th of this year, we urge you to register for this free Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon.

Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line, and you will be automatically registered for this free event. Also, a reminder that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is in serious need of your financial support.

We had two of our advertisers, out of necessity, due to a financial crisis of their own, had to decline my invitation to them to renew their sponsorship for this program. So we are quite concerned about this, obviously, and we need your financial help urgently.

So please go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now, and you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion. We truly need your help. If you really love this show, you enjoy listening to it every day, you enjoy the guests and topics that sometimes are never heard anywhere else, you enjoy winning free books when we interview authors and you submit questions, you enjoy passing on the free downloadable mp3s to family, friends, and loved ones.

If you love all that, please help us remain in existence. Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, and then click, click to donate now to help us out of this financial rut. Well, I am thrilled to have back on the program a man I consider a dear friend and brother in Christ, as well as being one of my very favorite guests to interview on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

His name is Jerry Johnson. He's a very well-known Christian apologist and documentarian, most well-known for co-writing and creating the DVD series Amazing Grace, the history and theology of Calvinism, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary of existence pretty soon.

And today we're going to be addressing the theme, Justification by Death, Examining the False Gospel of Sentimentalism, and He is in a Better Place Now Theology. And I'm sure that many of you have experienced being at a funeral or a wake or just hearing the news from someone you know about the death of a loved one, perhaps you even see and hear it in a news report on television, and you will occasionally hear the person giving you the news saying that this person is in a better place now.

And even if you know that the person that they are referring to never made it apparent that they repented of a scandalous sinful lifestyle, or in the case of just hearing this news from a brother in Christ who is trying to put the best spin on the news that a loved one of theirs died, and even if this person made no profession of faith in Christ, they are telling everyone that they are confident that dad has now joined mom in heaven or any of these kinds of comments when there is no evidence given, or there has been no evidence given that we should have such confidence and peace over this person's death.

Well, we're going to be addressing that today with my friend Jerry Johnson, and it's so great to have you back on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, brother.

Thank you, brother, I appreciate being here.

Well, why was it that you were so compelled to address this specific topic today?

Well, before we get started, I want to address another topic, if you don't mind.

All right.

I recently, because I'm a Duvis, I heard your introduction that we interview, what is it, scholars and historians and theologians, and I thought, what about Duvis's?

Well, that is certainly a mischaracterization of yourself. Everybody who knows who you are would obviously receive that as a joke, because it's certainly not true. But go ahead, brother.

You know, my pastor is supposed to be listening today because he wanted to take notes and record all my heresies and bring it up to discussion. So, hello, Roland. Anyway, anyway, what I wanted to say was, I'm a Duvis because every year I forget my wife's birthday.

I mean, every year without fail, and I'm sitting there looking at the calendar and I know it's coming up. And then about five days before it comes up, I'm streaming like a chicken with my head.

Cut off.

I'm running around like, what do I do? What do I do? Well, Royal Diadem saved me last year, and they saved me in a big way. And I got a ring from my wife because she told me years ago, if you can't think of anything else, get me jewelry.

I like that. Really?

A woman said that? That's so hard to believe.

It's actually written in the 11th commandment and Jude chapter two and Galatians chapter seven. So anyway, they FedExed, we actually looked at different rings online. I got her ring size. They fitted it to her specifically.

They FedExed it to me and it was here before her birthday. I think like one or two days before her birthday. And she was very grateful. And so I just want to say a shout out to Royal Diadem because they saved me.

Yes, and Royal Diadem saves me with their monthly financial support. And also, for those of you who don't know, and you'll be hearing the ad coming up during our first commercial break, they are giving Iron Troupe and Zion Radio 100 of the profits from any sale of jewelry to an Iron Troupe and Zion Radio listener simply by that listener mentioning Iron Troupe and Zion Radio when purchasing their jewelry.

Their website is royaldiadem .com, royaldiadem .com. So I urge you to go to that website today if you want to kill two birds with one stone, as they say, and get a beautiful piece of jewelry while at the same time helping Iron Troupe and Zion Radio.

You can accomplish that by buying jewelry at royaldiadem .com and also just mentioning Iron Troupe and Zion Radio and we will get 100 of the profits from that sale. But thank you, Jerry, for spontaneously and voluntarily doing that.

I did not coerce Jerry to give that plug to my sponsor and I am very glad that he did.

Oh, wait a minute, you didn't give me any? I thought I was getting a free coffee!

Well, that I could promise you.

All right, good deal, good deal. Now, you had asked me, because I've been kind of beating the drum on this subject matter, which, you know, the thing is I've seen a lot on like Facebook that people will say, I want to say happy birthday to my dad who's in heaven.

Or I watched this clip on YouTube one time. It totally shocked me. But as I was watching this clip of this tragedy, this girl, she was a porn star, had died. And her friends were talking about how good of a person she was and she's now in a better place.

She actually committed suicide. And I don't know. I don't know if she's in heaven. I doubt it doesn't look good for her.

Well, obviously, if she repented before she died, because even if somebody commits suicide, sometimes they don't die instantly. And she may have repented during that if she had a time of lingering death.

So, you know, obviously, Christ saved the chief of sinners, Saul of Tartus, and he could save anybody.

Yeah. And, you know, it's the thing that kind of bothers me is I've known people that were drunks, that were drug addicts, that beat their wife, that stole any chance they could get, that would steal from somebody.

And they're dead now. And I don't know their state. I think they could be in heaven, but it doesn't look good for them. But the thing is, most folks today don't believe in justification by grace through faith in Christ alone.

They don't even believe in justification by worse. They seem now, at least the masses, seem to believe in justification by death. And I think that's the coolest thing that you could ever give anybody comfort, is the idea that just because they died, they went to heaven.

We don't know. It's all up to God.

And backing up a little bit, I'm sure you have no problem, as I don't. Maybe you'll find out I'm wrong in a minute. But I don't have any problem. In fact, I have done it, publicly wishing a loved one that I know is in heaven a happy birthday.

I have wished my wife, my late wife, a happy wedding anniversary. But I have also said she's experiencing infinitely more joy in the presence of Christ than any anniversary this earth could possibly provide.

But you're talking about people who are saying this automatically just because somebody died, whether or not they had Christ covering their sins or not.

Yes.

And it's not just—the concern that I have, which is one of the reasons I wholeheartedly agreed to do the topic, to cover the topic, is because this goes on with professing Christians.

Yes.

And they—now, I'm not saying that you should go to a funeral and voluntarily approach someone and tell them as you're standing in front of the coffin, By the way, I have little doubt that your loved one is in heaven.

Or should I say, I have little doubt that your loved one is in hell, I should say. You shouldn't say that. You shouldn't voluntarily hurt someone. And on top of that, we don't have infallible knowledge of where someone is because they may have come to faith and repentance apart from our awareness.

Even if it's your own loved one, unless you're with them when they utter their last breath and they're cursing God, we don't know if we've been evangelizing them or somebody else has. We don't know what may have taken root in their heart and mind.

So, I'm assuming you would think that although we should not give people false hope and tell them, Oh, I know your mom's in heaven just because the person died, and they know that they have a heartbroken child here, we are not to do the other with certainty either.

Oh, I know your mom or dad is in hell.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that, brother. When I was 40 years old in my 40s, I should say, I asked my old pastor, I have a confession to make here. I used to be Reformed Baptist. Do you know what a Reformed Presbyterian is?

What's that?

A sanctified Baptist.

I'll accept that insult.

I used to be Reformed Baptist and the pastor at that time, he has since passed away from cancer. His name was Larry Marlin and I asked Larry, I said, Hey, Larry, what do you do if you are doing a funeral for somebody and it looks pretty good that they're not a Christian.

What do you do? Because they never made a valid profession of faith. They never had anything, any inclination towards God at all or the gospel. How do you approach that? Because you're right. You can't tell the family, Hey, he's in hell and he's burning or whatever.

You know, you can't do that. That's not being, I guess, sensitive to them. I said, so what do you do? Because I knew he wouldn't give them false hope, false assurance. And he said, all I could do is explain the gospel and hopefully they hear it.

And that was it. There was nothing else he can do. But our culture right now seems to believe that if you have an intellectual assent to God or to the Lord Jesus, My wife and I, we love these so-called murder documentaries or like A &E and stuff like that.

And we were watching one about two months ago. And the guy's rationale was, well, I'm going to be saved anyway. So I'll go ahead and murder this whole family. And I was like, you got to be kidding. This was his attitude.

You know, how is that any different than the indulgences that John Testa was selling? You know, when Martin Luther opposed him, if you believe, well, now it's if you have intellectual assent, let me say.

And a lot of people will have intellectual assent to the God of the Bible or the gospel or Jesus Christ. But in the end, they don't really believe. They believe that they're real, but they don't believe the gospel.

They don't embrace it.

Now, in this case, what you're talking about right now is the errors of professing Christians. Because obviously, many people, perhaps the majority in the world, don't look for any kind of evidence that relates to a faith.

They will just say that the person's good. You know, the world was good. The person made them happy. The person was kind to them. The person was a good parent, a good spouse. And they believe, if they believe in an afterlife, that that person will be in some kind of better place.

And if they don't believe in an afterlife, they'll just say that they're better off being unconscious or out of existence.

Oops. Sorry, I muted my mic. Wrong way. So, yeah. I mean, and that's the thing. I sit there, and I talk to people, and they're like, you know, well, she believed in God or she believed in the gospel. In fact, that porn actress I'm speaking about, I don't remember her name, but like I said, it was a YouTube clip.

And it happened, you know, probably eight, nine years ago. And she had headlined many pornographic films. She was an alcoholic and a drug addict. And she was arrested numerous times for stealing. And she was 24 years old, and she committed suicide.

Now, I don't know if she's in heaven or not. But I'm not going to give her friends false assurance that that's all you need to do. And I don't know where people are getting this from. You know?

Well, it's because it all goes back to, I think, a dominant theology that exists in Christendom today. And I'm not saying that people call it a theology. But it is a theology nonetheless, and it's a bad theology.

People exalt the priority of the feelings of others above and beyond the truth. And they want to spare the feelings of others as a far more important thing than warning them about the wrath to come if they haven't repented.

And sometimes it's just because they have a misguided compassion for someone. I mean, we should always have compassion for people who are wounded and hurting and in pain and in a trial of some kind. But we are not to give them false hope.

And we're not to encourage them in their own delusion. Because that just further fans the flames of people who believe that all you've got to do is not be the worst kind of grotesque, scandalous sinner.

And you don't have to worry about the afterlife. You know, there are people, the way they talk sometimes, you would think that if they actually put it down on paper what they believe about the afterlife, the only people in hell are Adolf Hitler and serial killers.

Right.

And of course, we know that there may be some serial killers in heaven because they repented when they were on death row or what have you.

Yeah.

But we have to go to our first commercial break. And if you have a question of your own, please send it in to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.

I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a Christ-centered, Gospel-driven church looking to spread the Gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the Gospel to the ends of the earth.

We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family. At Linbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired Word of God, inerrant in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear God's image. If you live near Linbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship.

For details, visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's l-y-n-brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the Lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself.

Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show. But today I want to tell you about one of its advertisers, Rare Document Traders, far and away my favorite source for quality Charles Spurgeon memorabilia.

Are you looking for that special, unique gift for your pastor or missionary friend or a loved one? Why not purchase a piece of church history that any believer would cherish? Rare Document Traders is your one-step source for Spurgeon's handwritten manuscripts and letters, as well as other rare books and collectible items from church history.

In 15 years that they've been in business, they've earned a stellar reputation in the Reformed community with thousands of satisfied customers all around the world, including me. Visit raredoctraders .com today.

That's raredoctraders .com. Don't forget to mention you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That's raredoctraders .com. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother, Chris Arnzen, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, CVBBS .com, I want to enable you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that the Reformers, the Puritans, and the great Christian minds of today have to offer, and at affordable prices.

Not only does CVBBS .com offer up to 50 off retail prices, but you'll get an added 5 off orders of $50 or more by using promo code IRON, I-R-O-N, an added 5 off all of your orders of $50 or more from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

That's CVBBS .com, making the joy of reading the finest in Christian literature more affordable. Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Greetings, this is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program. SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.

We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur. In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran.

He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sense that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God. That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672. That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible-believing, kingdom-building, devil-fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone. Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image-bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea. We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt Christ.

This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona. Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth. Puritan Reformed Church. Believe.

Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com.

And affiliated with the American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America. For the perfect custom-designed engagement ring or any one-of-a-kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered.

No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step-by-step through every stage of the process and even hold a high-tech internet virtual visit using state-of-the-art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you. From rough design to digital model to photorealistic image to wax prototype model to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations. Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today. Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager, Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And you just heard earlier in the program from my guest's own mouth how wonderful an experience he had with royaldiadem .com when he purchased his wife, Tracy, a beautiful ring for her birthday. And it got there quickly via FedEx.

And she was thrilled with it. I remember her showing it off in social media. And that could be you too. If you are purchasing jewelry for yourself or somebody you love, please go to royaldiadem .com. And I'm urging you to go to royaldiadem .com today, even if you're not making your final purchase today.

There's a reason for the urgency. Because we have no idea when royaldiadem .com is going to pull the plug on an amazing offer they are still providing for us. They are giving 100 of the profits from any sale of jewelry to an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener.

They're giving 100 of the profits to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. As long as that listener mentions Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when purchasing their jewelry, whether it's jewelry they already have in stock at royaldiadem .com, especially if you need something real quick, or even if you're having a one-of-a-kind customized piece of jewelry created, like an engagement ring, like taking your church logo, parachurch ministry logo, your denomination logo, your seminary logo, your business logo, and you're turning it into a pendant for a necklace or a ring or anything else your imagination and creativity can conjure up in your brain.

They will take what's in your brain and turn it into a mind-blowing piece of stunning, breathtaking jewelry I've seen firsthand, the mastery that they have over customizing jewelry. So whatever it is, if it's something they have in stock or a customized piece of jewelry, please go to royaldiadem .com today to get the ball rolling and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio just to make sure that we will definitely get 100 of the profits from that sale because we don't know when they're going to pull the plug on this offer.

So please go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Jerry Johnson, and he is a world-renowned apologist and documentarian, and we are discussing Justification by Death, and we are subtitling this Examining the False Gospel of Sentimentalism, and He's in a Better Place Now Theology.

If you have a question, send it to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com and give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. A verse that immediately pops into my head, Jerry, when it comes to people that elevate the importance of sparing people's feelings above the truth is Proverbs 27, verse 6.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. Yeah, and one of the things that I have said to people when they hear about somebody, a friend, for instance, whose loved one dies, that person is dead.

There is no future opportunity to evangelize that person. This is really an occurrence of the past now, even if it's the recent past. So I don't think that when you're talking to a person, you need to bring up the eternal state of their loved one.

Of course, if you know that they were a Christian, you can definitely give them all the confidence in the world that that person is experiencing eternal bliss, indescribable bliss in the presence of Christ.

But if you don't know, you don't even have to dwell on that person. You dwell on the people who are hearing you now. And you, for instance, the pastors that I know that I have the highest respect for at a funeral, when somebody has died that the funeral is a memorial for, they will not dwell on the person who died necessarily, especially as far as their afterlife.

They will dwell on the need for everybody listening to repent and believe upon Christ.

Yes.

So you would agree with that?

Yeah, just like the person that died, if they truly died in a state of grace, they had genuine faith. Yes, I would say you're right. You should dwell on the people that are there, but you can give them assurance at that point.

But what gets me and what I see as a cultural phenomenon, because you know, I hang out at the Moose Lodge quite a bit, and I always hear, oh, I want to say happy birthday to my dad who was in heaven. Well, your dad, I'm sorry, he didn't believe, he didn't repent.

I mean, it doesn't look good for him, but you look at the idea, well, he believed in God, well, the demons believe in God and tremble. So it's not evidently not a salvific belief. And so I think my dogs are fixing to come into my office.

They like to come in here and make sure, see what I'm doing. I've got a dog that is very sweet, but she is about the most mischievous dog you have ever met. She chews everything. We keep hoping she'll outgrow it.

She hasn't yet.

That dog needs to repent and believe. The thing that strikes me about the he's in a better place now theology is that's just as much typically a heretical works-based understanding of theology as the other extreme where you have someone being fed a lie like either from the false gospel of dogmatic Roman Catholicism, where people are told that if they are absolutely certain that they are going to heaven when they die, that's the sin of presumption that we're always to be doubting or questioning whether or not we will go to heaven.

That's horrible and wrong. And the religion of the cults and world religions that teach that you have to jump through all kinds of hoops and be on a works righteousness treadmill your whole life and you never know for certain where you'll be when you die until you open your eyes after death.

That's one extreme. But it's still a works righteousness idea that if you say that you know someone you love is in heaven because they were compared to many people, if not most people, just a nice person.

That is also somehow a marriage of eternal life in heaven.

They did more good than bad.

Yeah, there's a scale.

Yeah, I will tell you this. I was working out the other night and an event hit my mind that, you know, I was listening to a sermon and an event hit my mind that happened like 25 years ago. We lived up in the mountains at the time, all right?

And we had a wraparound deck and my oldest son and my daughter had got this little pup tent and they wanted to sleep out on the porch in the pup tent. And I thought, well, you know, they can't get harmed or I'm going to leave the door open.

If they want to sleep out there, that's okay with me. Well, about three o 'clock in the morning, my daughter woke up and she didn't know where she was and she started screaming. And so needless to say, I jumped out of bed.

I ran downstairs and I grabbed her and I held her and I said, hey, Karis, you want to sleep in the tent? You're out on the front porch. And she was pretty inconsolable at that time. And so I took her back upstairs to Tracy and mine's bed.

I laid her in the bed and I let her sleep with us. Yes, I left my son out on porch because he was fine. He would sleep through a nuclear war. I swear that kid would. And but anyway, I thought about that as I was working out and I was able to help my daughter at that time.

But there's going to, you know, there's a day I'm not going to be able to help her. And that is on that day. And she's going to wake up, you know, or some people are going to wake up and they're going to be in hell and they're going to start screaming.

And there's nothing anybody can do for them. You know, they rejected the gospel. First off, I did want to actually have it on number seven on my list. But I wanted to talk about the age of accountability.

Because this was something we had to deal with when we were doing the Amazing Grace documentary. Because people would ask me, well, what do you do about people that never heard the gospel? The thing is, people do not go to hell because they have not heard the gospel.

People go to hell because we're born sinners. We're totally depraved. Every single one of us, you, me, R .C. Sproul, Joe Biden, Donald Trump. I don't care who it is, deserves hell. And I liked what Dr. Kennedy said when I interviewed him for the Amazing Grace documentary.

D. James Kennedy.

Yes. He said there's going to be a lot of people in heaven that don't deserve to be there. And there's going to be a lot of people in hell that they deserve to be there. Now, I probably just flattered his quote.

In fact, everybody who's in heaven doesn't deserve to be there, and everybody in hell deserves to be there.

So this age of accountability, it's something that when you have the belief that people need to hear the gospel or they automatically go to heaven, that would make abortion doctors the greatest evangelist of all time.

Right.

In fact, it would be cruel to send out missionaries. If some Aborigine in the darkest jungle of Africa never heard the gospel, then that would be better than if he heard the gospel and rejected it.

In fact, that very thing was something that I confronted Father Mitch Pacwa with, who is a Jesuit priest, a really nice guy, wonderful guy, brilliant guy. He debated James White a number of times, and I orchestrated two of those debates.