Harold Camping, Baptism, Westboro Baptist Church

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and welcome to the dividing line it is two o 'clock on a Saturday afternoon here in the

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Mountain West well this is actually the desert Southwest we have mountains but anyways that's what time it is and it's always that time those of you who get confused about what time the program is on stop playing with your clocks that is your only problem whatsoever is that you play with those clocks that one weekend in the spring and one weekend the fall if you didn't do that hey all of us would be on the same page all the time and I don't know why all the rest you do that we tried that here once but I think

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I've already told you it was really silly to have it like 107 degrees at 10 o 'clock at night during July which is just you know a bad thing anyhow hey

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I didn't I was I've I'm always bad about updating the calendar on the website and that's really bad because a lot of folks really depend on that every time

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I go someplace we were in Dallas a couple weeks ago and Countryside Bible and we had folks who showed up because they saw it on the website and we should do a better job in keeping track of things like that so let me know let me let you know right now what's coming up this coming weekend yes right after Thanksgiving in fact

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I leave in fact I need to find out when I leave I need to go through the old emails here find out what I'm supposed to be at the airport try to remember to bring my driver's license this time oh man that was a story anyways we're going to st.

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Louis actually it's st. Charles Missouri for those of you who are picky about things like that but I suppose when people come to Phoenix if they're speaking in Glendale they say they're going to Phoenix so you know whatever however that works flying over there and I think this will be the third time that I have been at the

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Covenant of Grace Church in st. Charles I will be there the 29th through December 1st

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Friday night 7 o 'clock introduction to Trinity on Saturday we're going to be having three sessions oh that's going to keep y 'all going 10 a .m.

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on monotheism 2 p .m. on the existence of the three persons of the Trinity 7 p .m. the qualities three persons the

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Trinity there are breaks between between these I want you to know right now and then

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Sunday morning in the Bible study questions and answers and 11 o 'clock I will be preaching in the service this will be a third time

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I've been there we did a seminar on the doctrines of grace a couple of years ago

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I got to speak there in April of last year I believe is April of last year but just briefly in the morning because I was speaking at a conference there in the same area and they were kind enough to have me there van

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Lees and all the folks there wonderful folks really enjoy being with them and for information they are at 23 20 old highway 94 south wherever in the world that is st.

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Charles Missouri 6 3 3 0 3 and if you want to get hold of them 6 3 6 4 4 7 56 91 is the number and they're at www .covenantofgracechurch

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.org for those of you who would like to look at that and check out the information there the whole thing for the seminar is online there if you'd like to see that and then

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I think I'm actually home for a while amazingly enough and I get to be here through the holidays and then starting in the middle of January we head back to Long Island I do not have my schedule as yet concerning where I'm going to be obviously

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I'm going to be doing the or I'm scheduled anyways do the youth retreat for Hope Reform Baptist Church and that normally means

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I preach Sunday night the last Sunday night of February there at Hope Reform Baptist Church but where I'll be before that is currently up in the air

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I may be up in Connecticut at Steve Egges Church haven't worked all that out yet but that's something

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I'm hoping to get to do did that a couple years ago actually I think it wasn't it must have been in January because I remember there was there was snow and that means had have been had have been

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January couldn't have been during May or July well I suppose you could have snow in Connecticut once in a while in May that'd be fairly rare but anyways that's that's coming up in January the first weekend in February I'm gonna be in Omaha with at Pat Abendroth Church and no

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I do not have a URL I suppose I could look through my personal stuff here and probably track it down eventually but we're gonna be up there for a

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I think it's just a Saturday Sunday men's men's Bible study

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I guess they have folks come from all over the place and we're gonna be doing that and I'm looking forward to that opportunity haven't had a chance to meet

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Pat Abendroth but I met his brother in is a church Bethlehem Bible Church in well it's not

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Boston why is the name BB BD BD BD West Broylston there you go

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West Broylston Massachusetts yes that the the Great Republic the

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Republic of Massachusetts yes we have days of dealing with you but anyways and then the third week of February I'm looking at the

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I need to start making this this calendar on my desktop a little bit bigger actually it's looking good today this should be the 20th through the 23rd of February gonna be in San Antonio Texas and we're going to do a full seminar on Norman Geisler's storm and Norman Geisler's chosen but free yes indeed

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I think we'll probably have a few copies of the Potter's Freedom there but put together a

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PowerPoint presentation and handle all the questions and something tells me that probably probably gonna be talking a little bit about maybe another book like what love is this as well because I've said many times so what love is this makes chosen but free look like a scholarly tome but still there are a lot of of crossover what was the date of San Antonio again well let me repeat that because MDH is in the channel and those people who are in the channel have a special relationship to this program yes indeed that's going to be

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February 20th through the 23rd thank you very much for asking I feel like ask

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Jeeves on this is actually a computer -generated voice

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I just sit here and watch the channel and respond to what said yes that's that's how it works anyways we're gonna be doing a seminar down there in February and I'm not sure about what happens after that obviously when is

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Easter could someone this is the other nice thing yeah I answer you all the channel now you all answer me when's

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Easter I need to know the date of Easter because that will tell me the did he did he did he oh

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I didn't open up my little window here for mr. AO min so I can talk to him and he can talk to me need to know the date of Easter so we'll know when we're going to try notice the word try to have our outreach at the

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Easter pageant of the Mormon Church in Mesa notice I said try I said try because we have been told that the same wonderful Christian in -depth theologians that were in Salt Lake City running around spring the

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Easter is in spring the spring thank you very much that's that's the day you're giving me thank you very much April April 20th

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I better not question the person who told me this because she could kick me April 20th

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Wow late late late one this year those are those the hot ones cuz

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I mean man it can be it can be well over a hundred and that time of year around here all right

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April 20th hmm that okay I got it now that's the 15th posting of the date now yeah that's spring and I do realize that is spring that that means it's going to be a good bit after the general conference of the church in in Salt Lake and we're just you know

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I I find myself sitting around when I am not dealing with my when

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I'm not sitting there staring at the the beautiful 320 by 320

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TFT full -color screen on my palm pilot tungsten T I I'm wondering what in the world are we going to do in Salt Lake City we mentioned we came back last time that again these people had acted like well

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I I don't know how I don't know how to even explain their their behavior

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I did see on the shields website shields as a LDS website there is an article with pictures of the the

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King James only folks and you know the one thing that's obviously struck me and I you know

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I said this over and over again but here's document proof you want to go the shields website and take a look at this yourself now these folks know there is a difference between ourselves and these other people there's no question the people who are involved with shields well know that we do not act like the

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King James only people so on so forth but does it matter no because if you read the captions while they do have a picture of one of the signs they had about me and that kind of stuff there's still we're all just anti -mormons we're all in the same thrown in the same bucket and doesn't matter whether you act like a complete and total goon like these people do or whether you actually have serious things to say it does not matter whatsoever they're going to behave in a particular way it's a it's truly a shame to see that kind of thing but that's the way it is that's that's that that's exactly why these people are doing what they're doing and that's exactly what

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I've tried to explain to them in the past they don't care these people could care less about evangelism or the glory of God the truth of God or anything like it

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I'm not talking about the shields people I'm talking about the King James only wacko aids that are up there but anyways don't know what we're going to do in Salt Lake I mean we just may have to totally change how we do things it may end up just being something where we really pour our energies into arranging these debates more than we have in the past maybe work even more with the individuals up there in Salt Lake City to to make that the thing we do

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I don't know I just I just don't know it's it's a difficult thing to face but certainly if those individuals show up in Mesa the outreach out there is going to be it's going to be over with because the

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Mesa PD the Mesa Police Department is not going to put up with their kind of behavior there is absolutely positively no no question about that and it's they show up and start behaving the way they behave it and they don't know any other way to behave that's just it they have no self -control they start behaving like that and they are out of there all of us and they will not differentiate between us who've been there for this would be our 19th year and actually if you include the one time

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I went out there with my my lovely wife in the back of a Kawasaki 440 while we were newlyweds this would be the 20th year actually 21st because it was 1983 and this would be 2003 so it'd be you know anyways we've been out there a long time they don't they're not going to care that's going to be absolutely irrelevant to them and things will just fall apart will be all over with and there will be no outreach and I've said many times these

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King James only folks are the Mormons greatest allies that they've ever ever had and so I don't know what's gonna happen there but that's what's coming up in the spring and I hold in my hand and by the way if you'd like to comment anything

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I've said or I have a question I'm not really sure exactly where I'm going today I have a number of different little things to talk about here the number is 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number and when

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I came into the office this afternoon I found the newest edition of the

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Christian Research Journal this is the volume 25 number one 2002

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I guess they don't put a yeah that's just just numbered now it's not really you know spring summer fall anything like that it's just what volume it is and what number it is and so on so forth and the the current edition of the

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CRI Journal has a feature -length article entitled dangerous airwaves

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Harold Camping's call to flee the church of course that's the name of my book on Harold Camping and interestingly enough and they really could have gone a long way with this they wanted to there are no no caricatures of Harold Camping Harold Camping would be a person who is very very much very very much liable to those caricatures that they've used for people like Oh TD Jake's and people like that but didn't go that direction nice looking article and Wow the synopsis takes up an entire blue page page 23 is just it's just the blue page it's a very pretty blue but it's the the blue page

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Harold Camping's present family radio teaches that God has done away with the church and thus there should be no more local congregations elders deacons and ordinances such as baptism of the

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Lord's Supper he maintains the Holy Spirit has left the church is an empty shell with no power to proclaim the gospel because camping calls his followers to flee the church and form fellowships around his teachings

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Christians must understand what the Bible teaches about the church and what the proper means of biblical interpretation are in order to counter camping's false teachings whenever you write one of these articles you get to write one of those little a synopsis and that's included there so the current edition of the

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CRI journal if you haven't read dangerous airwaves yet read it anyway do not use that as an excuse not to read the book because these future articles are only about what 40 between 45 and 48 hundred words and that's that's not really a whole lot and the book was significantly longer than that and goes into more detail so take a take a look at that and if you do get the

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CRI journal then you were already aware of that or you will become aware of that as it arrives I've never quite figured out how things are shipped because sometimes people be asking me about something they've seen it

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I haven't gotten mine yet or I'll get mine before the others and you know whatever so take a look at that that is available right now 877 -753 -3341

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I've been sort of watching a little bit of the discussion here in the chat channel and so far there's absolutely positively nothing of interest then someone asking if a

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Kawasaki 440 is a VCR that was deep I was that was real real deep and then all good we don't have to worry about the stuff the pageant because the

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Amphibio is going to bring up the Cajun Mafia to handle the pageant which I think the only thing they're known for is feeding people really hot food and as the result they do whatever you tell them to do and but if you have questions or comments 877 -753 -3341 it was interesting

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I someone had posted the URL to was it shields you see here to do to do to do to do to do to do when

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I'm scrolling back there it is www .shields

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-research .org is the URL for the website that I mentioned before and I was looking through there

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I'd actually saved a couple articles we really need to change the main page article and I'm a bad bad person and not getting those things done

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I've I've been working for those of you who are keeping track of these things yes the second round for me anyways of the

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Dave Hunt debate book is completed for those of you who are just tuning in I'm writing a book the title of which is yet unknown well it

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I don't want to say writing it with Dave Hunt because that would you know I wrote I've written books with Kevin Johnson with Jeff Neal so on so forth and that meant we cooperate together and that's not what we're doing here instead it is more of a it is a debate book and there are little

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I guess we could describe those rounds in the writing that is each of us wrote seven presentations three thousand words presenting our position and then we exchange them

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I finally got all of his just a few weeks ago and then we write seven responses of two thousand words each and then we exchange them and then we write 1 ,000 word responses to that and exchange them and then 500 word responses that and I'm not sure if we exchange them or not but anyways so there's total 14 chapters with give and take in each one and last week

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I mentioned that I was I think in the 6th on the 6th of the 7th finished those up just a couple days ago unfortunately it took me a little while the last one was was hard it was it's on well part of Dave's presentation was on eternal security and his problems with the reformed perspective on that unfortunately and and this is what

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I think is a drawback throughout the book is is that Dave just assumes that his tradition is orthodoxy and and as a result doesn't bother to defend it he he for example is and this is in what love is this and not telling anything about a book has been published yet you can read his chapter in this in his book what love is this and his whole his whole thesis is so well

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I don't believe in what Calvinist believe in I just believe that because you believe you're you're eternally secure

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I don't have to worry about whether I'm one of the elect or not what that doesn't answer anything

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I mean it that doesn't accomplish anything what about false faith well he doesn't seem to address that it's almost like there can't be such a thing as false faith so it's

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I found the seventh one very difficult because only about 60 % of the presentation was on that subject then everything else on totally different subjects compatibilism and limited atonement it's just you know all over the road and it's extremely difficult to you know deal with a response like that even when you focus in upon one element of it you sort of feeling

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I would like to comment on this and I would like to comment on that and there's just not enough space in the world even if I had more words and he had to to point out all of the constant misrepresentations of reform theology in fact in fact

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I want to bring this up one of the regular folks in our chat channel utilizes a tagline from Charles Haddon Spurgeon and he uses those of you who well if you're listening to this you you've got to be a geek

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I mean you've got a tagline is so it

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I keep saying well if you don't know what a tagline is then you know in the internet you'll frequently write things and I realize wait a minute you're listening to this you're already on the internet you already know that stuff anyways he uses this as a well part of this is a tagline and I tracked it down the writings of Spurgeon because it just it demonstrates that and I did actually make a joke about this but I shouldn't that that Charles Haddon Spurgeon did know

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Dave Hunt or at least he knew someone like him because this is what this is what

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Spurgeon wrote this is from 1861 and now having made these remarks upon terms used we must observe that there is nothing upon which men need to be more instructed than upon the question of what

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Calvinism really is the most infamous allegations have been brought against us and sometimes

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I must fear by men who knew them to be utterly untrue and to this day there are many of our opponents who when they run short of matter invents and make for themselves a man of straw call that John Calvin and then shoot all their arrows at it we are not come here to defend your man of straw shoot at it or burn it as you will and if it suits your convenience still oppose doctrines which were never taught and rail at fictions which save in your own brain were never in existence we come here to state what our views really are and we trust that any who do not agree with us will do us the justice of not misrepresenting us if they can disprove our doctrines let them state them fairly and then overthrow them but why should they first caricature our opinions and then afterwards attempt to put them down and that that quote is going to end up in a future section of this book that we're writing

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I assure you because it is it is well it just demonstrates that there's nothing new under the

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Sun and what we're experiencing today in in what we see in in Norman Geisler and in Dave Hunt and and in Bryson and and David cloud all these individuals who for some reason have felt that they need to set us all straight warn the world about the the terrible horrible errors of Calvinism but who and in general are the last people on the planet who would ever debate the subject openly they only want to do that without any ability of anyone else's part to respond to them and to correct them but seemingly they they recognize that there is headway being made and they are hearing more and more about the doctrines of grace and therefore they have decided to come after us with pitchforks well it's seemingly is nothing new every time the truth makes makes headway you're gonna have that kind of thing taking place unfortunately so that's just sort of how the way it is that's the way it goes now

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I I was talking before I talked about Spurgeon I was talking about something else where are the pictures on shields what link do

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I click on look for the thing about protesters at at at the general conference it was on the main page

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I found it rather easily anyways I also found an article on there that that really maybe this is where I was gonna go and I'm not sure how

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I was gonna get there for what I was talking about but one thing that struck me as I was looking at the shields website someone just posted the

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URL again I guess I could probably give you the specific URL in the process probably knock us right off the air trying to bring the thing up but let me see here oh boy that looks completely different than it did yesterday that was

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I looking at something else I that does not at all look like what

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I was looking at yesterday that's weird what in the world that is very very very strange because I I brought up something that had hmm well anyways that's that's interesting as someone's asking for where the article is and then

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I bring up that website and that does not look anything at all like what

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I was looking at yesterday I mean talk about a completely different looking man that is weird hmm well

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I saved a I saved an article off of this oh well let's see if I can find the article maybe that would have salvation by grace alone that sounds like it yep that's salvation by grace alone yeah well it says oh this is the fair website

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FAIR sorry many apologies I thought they had

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I thought they had coalesced with with shields that there's there's and error error do unlike unlike Rush Limbaugh I do make errors and I'm not sure if there's a connection here straight over to fair but I think it's fair FAIR LDS org

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I think is where this came from so my apologies that's where I found it and that's where the pictures of the thing my

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Bobby are so that'll that'll give you an idea of see the problem is it's not in my history file because it was put in the web in the channel and I just double -clicked on it and poof it came up but anyways it does bring me back to the point

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I was going to be talking about I download an article called salvation by grace alone question mark by John to vetness now this fellow sort of known as an

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LDS scholar he's certainly involved with with LDS apologetics at the highest levels and I was reading through it

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I find it interesting thank you everybody's now posting the URL in the channel

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I find it interesting that and I've made this this observation in the past but possibly not on the program then again given how long we're doing the program right now

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I've probably made the observation many times and all of you are fully well aware of it but one of things that strikes me in looking at what is being published in Mormonism is the continued lack of any serious biblical exegetical work

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I mean why aren't there multiple commentaries on Romans or Galatians exegetical level commentaries it's because Mormonism cannot do exegesis it simply is not capable of of encountering the text in a meaningful fashion not not that it's people can't learn

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Greek and Hebrew of course they can but it's almost worthless to them it's like if I learned

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Swahili I'm not going anywhere that's gonna be useful to me and once you have the fundamental perspectives of the

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Mormon Church in regards to scripture and the doctrine of God that they have doing exegesis of Romans is sort of irrelevant there's one little paperback thing on Romans one that I've tracked down and and that to be perfectly honest with you is extremely disappointing and is is not exegetically meaningful and this article which will continue with after the break just simply continues that and we would appreciate your phone calls at 877 -753 -3341 we'll be right back you know hey you're not supposed to bring that up while I'm singing actually

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I have a I have a word of warning for the audience Warren has informed me let me get a mic ready and warm up the singing voice so that's because we have no callers at 877 -753 -3341 so here we go again you know actually you know it is it is getting to that season and I I understand that Warren has a version of blue Christmas by Elvis that is just to die at oh yeah get down there in that nice low register

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I better not do that because syzygous and all those people will be turning all this stuff into wave files so quickly that it's in fact in fact make sure can you put my computer up I if you can put my computer up I think

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I still have here I think this is gonna work this was some of you will recognize by Monday okay we did the program on Saturday by Monday someone played this sound man that wears sunglasses then you must reply it is the banana that cries in the night are they oakley's if they say what is the light that shines really really bright say it is the light that once grew hair if they reply what is the

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Coogee you must say Pat Robertson knits alpaca sweaters last week and by Monday man in the channel and that that sound is called

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GRW goes Gnostic dot wave because not in his defense and I suppose we we probably should probably should should say this

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E Nielsen one of the only people other than Skyman who is used the same

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Nick the entire time I've known him in channel which I think says something about a person's personality but anyways

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E Nielsen in his own defense posted a section from the

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Gospel of Thomas that that's very much like I mean it is that's what he was playing off of but still

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I still find the entire thing of I even have a little pop -up but it's played in the channel that has the whole thing and it's just oh

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I tell you we have some we have some we have some fun the program anyways

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I do have a want to finish up the comments I had on on that and we do have a caller from California and does he does he have a little bit of an accent there

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I am in possibly just a little bit maybe comes from someplace other than than Louisiana possibly maybe hey what's out there does he chase snakes in the

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Australian Outback maybe who knows anyways I was commenting on the salvation by grace alone article take a look at it because as I under the

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Apostle Paul now you'd think given Romans and Galatians and things like that this is where the most you know we're gonna defend the

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LDSU salvation and things like that this is where it's gonna be listen listen what we have here this is the level we have the

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Apostle Paul the confusion over grace results principally from the writings the Apostle Paul but if Paul really taught that grace alone was sufficient for salvation we must consider a number of questions now here are the questions why did

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Paul write so often to Christian congregations admonishing them to abandon their sinful ways that's a question that a serious

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LDS scholar asks of the viewpoint that we're talking about here why did

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Paul have to tell believing Christians those who committed various sins could not be saved in the kingdom of God why did

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Paul teach Christ the Savior of all men especially of those who believe why did

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Paul teach a godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation why did Paul tell the Philippians to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling this is actually it's right there and I mean anyone who's who's a serious reader of Scripture and theology you're sitting here going wait a minute those are the questions

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I get from my my my junior high students in Sunday school at times and and I'm not you know that was me no this is the level of interaction that is currently still at the top end of the

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LDS Church I mean that is that is how very different from from other groups that you're dealing with well actually who does have a meaningful interaction

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I mean you know I guess the Roman Catholics about the closest you can get to trying to be meaningful and the more meaningful they become the less

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Catholic they are fascinating stuff but anyways I just comment on that because I found it amazing that that would be the kind of the kind of level that we would have coming from things like that you can take the computer down if you want to or whatever

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I'm not sure if I'm sorry hearings on the background I'm sure if it's cuz my doors open or just exactly what it is but anyhow alrighty we've got phone calls and we also have a call a question from the rooms let me we handle the questions room fairly quickly if that's not sufficient then we will you know go from there we were asked

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I was asked from the channel first Peter 320 to 21 of course passage that comes up a lot in discussing baptismal regeneration actually back up a little bit because you're in the middle of sentence there starting verse 18 false for Christ also died for sins once for all the just for the unjust so he might bring us to God having been put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which also he went made proclamation the spirits now in prison who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting the days of Noah during the construction of the ark in which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the water corresponding to that baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ was at the right hand of God having gone to heaven after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him now not addressing the use of this passage by Mormons to attempt to establish a spirit prison

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I do address that in letters to a Mormon elder oh and by the way if you have never obtained letters to Mormon elder or is the

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Mormon my brother you need to order them there are some of you have put that off and put that off and put that off why do

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I said because they're going out of print Bethany house has chosen to not reprint them and so there is a very limited number available and we are of course purchasing all of them and making them available to the ministry but they will not last long and after that that's going to be it now what we are going to do

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Lord willing is make them available in e -text I do not believe that this information should be unavailable

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I am well aware of the fact that I just not right sensationalistic books sensationalistic enough books you know if I came up with some fancy title like the

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Godmakers or something it would go through 16 million printings but I shoot that kind of thing and so we're going to put them into probably

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Adobe Acrobat format PDF files and make them available through the ministry in the form of e -books once we've sold out of the hard copies so the information will still be there but I know a lot of folks

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I've got good friends in fact I have good British friends who have a number of my books but they they do not have my books on Mormonism because they live back east and Mormonism is real big there and they just haven't taken the time to do that and so if you're gonna want to have those books available yeah the prayer of Jabez from Mormon evangelism that's quite true

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Julie all I have to do is read you know re title it I'm sure it would sell just wonderfully of course

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I would have to cut out 98 % of the sound theology and package it in a nice little teeny tiny teeny tiny little format that you can read in an hour because that seems to be what sells these days millions and millions and millions and millions of copies of them anyways

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I just want to mention that in passing that for example I do address this passage and the concept of a spirit prison there within the

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I think that was within the letters to a Mormon elder so get those while they are still available maybe crowd will pick it up again crown doesn't exist crown would have to be resurrected to pick it up again anyways the the question is focused upon verse 21 corresponding to that baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh but an appeal to God for a good conscience the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the question is not actually coming from the

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Church of Christ perspective it's not coming from the get him dunked and therefore you are you know you're there type thing the question if I understand it correctly is coming from a discussion let me look it up here that was prompted by various hundred people the channel reading the book reformed is not enough recovering the objectivity of the covenant by Douglas Wilson and chapter 11 is called baptism now saves and there is a if you if you just took this section out and is the

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Mormon my monkey I you know I need to put him on on ignore while doing this program because it'll help me keep my mind on important things but if you just took this section out and handed it to somebody and didn't give him a background it would it would definitely confuse them here on one page of acts 238 acts 22 16

40:40

Titus 3 5 so on smart 16 16 and most of you who are accustomed to dealing with various sundry perspectives out there are immediately going wow and in fact

40:55

Wilson writes all this seems to be pretty plain what are we to do with this are we Roman Catholics yet for the historically astute the answer is of course not but has to be confessed the biblical response these things in the historic reform formulation of them looks

41:09

Roman Catholic to many modern evangelicals but this is because they are heirs of the radical

41:15

Anabaptist Reformation and not of the magisterial Reformation we have gotten to such a low point in our awareness of our heritage that a man can be thought of to be quoting

41:24

Roman Catholic formula when he is actually quoting that old papist John Knox so anyways the the question is based upon the assertion and let me get the exact quotation here it was it was actually picking on Karl Bart at one point yeah here it is did you do it's sort of around page 107 actually that's not this is well this is somewhat relevant to it when we do this we are spared the indignity of turning the scriptural language on its head

42:08

Peter Lightheart chides Karl Barth for this for Bart when the rarest his body's washed pure water he means that what are not really bodies are not really washed by what is not really water and then it goes on to say there is an apostolic succession in the church but it is not a succession delivered through ordination rather it is a succession of baptisms which have fulfilled the

42:27

Old Testament type of priestly ordination etc etc so as I understand the origination of the of the question well what do you understand verse 21 to be saying corresponding to that baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh then appeal to God for a good conscience to the resurrection of Jesus Christ well the first thing that I would point out in least in response to the use of this passage by someone who would be saying look baptism saves you by putting you in the

42:56

New Covenant and putting you under certain obligations I don't think that that has anything to do whatsoever with the issue at hand because notice this is through the resurrection of Jesus Christ this is true salvation this is the result of the work of Christ and the position that is being promoted by certain individuals is that you can be in the

43:18

New Covenant but you're not one of the elect and therefore you can be lost and it is that connection

43:23

I think the intimate connection between the work of Christ the blood of Christ the nature of the covenant the resurrection the

43:30

Spirit of God applying the work of Christ to all those who are in the New Covenant etc etc that is really at issue here and that's not what

43:40

Peter's talking about Peter's talking about true salvation and not only that he obviously is not talking about infant baptism if he's talking about anything then he's clearly when you're talking about this baptism that saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh but an appeal to God for a good conscience that is on the part of the person baptized and I don't see

44:04

I would actually point this passage to say excuse me but how do you fit any kind of pato baptism into this whether whatever kind you want to you know reformed

44:15

Lutheran whatever how do you fit any of that into there because there is clearly an element here of an appeal to God for a good conscience and I know that well it's on the part of the parents that's is a

44:29

Jesus that is that is purely is a gentle as far as that goes

44:34

I just cannot see how that can be made to to to work so I think the salvation is true salvation that Peter's point is that those who are baptized have made this appeal that is there what brings their salvation and it is through the resurrection of Jesus Christ alone and not do anything that they can do for themselves so I wish

44:57

I could have found the exact reference in the in the book they're just looking through it's difficult to do all trying to talk and and all the rest of stuff as I watch the little children in the channel play with my scripts and kick themselves out of channel it's it's very cute let's take some of our phone calls let me scroll back here and I think our first phone caller was

45:18

Paul in California is that correct hey

45:24

Paul in California how are you sir very good how are you I'm doing fine I just wanted to ask a question about Romans 1129 about God's gifts and his call are irrevocable and what the gifts and the call what they pertain to well in the context verse 28 from the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake but from the standpoint of God's choice they're beloved with the sake of the father's the

45:52

Romans 11 is talking about the the fact that just because Paul has now demonstrated through Romans 8 9 and 10 that the gospel is has gone out into all the world and that in fact it is his purpose to create in the church this wonderful union of Jew and Gentile in the church and that the

46:15

Gentiles as Acts 13 Paul says once the Jews begin to resist the proclamation he says we had to declare it to you first but now we turn to the

46:27

Gentiles and they rejoice and as many as were appointed eternal life believe X 1348 and so that that great union of Jew and Gentile has been has been created but Paul is then correcting an attitude that sadly

46:42

I think many people did develop grossly so during the medieval period of basically well anti -semitism it's it's there was a you know he says look don't boast against those branches that have been cut off so you might be grafted in and there's it's very obvious sadly that the

47:03

Roman Catholic individuals of the Inquisition for example or of the

47:10

Crusades did not understand that and did not understand that attitude and and the sovereignty of God in doing the way things the way that he that he did so so when he says their enemies for your sake he's admitting look right now the

47:25

Jews stand against the gospel sadly that happens today too I know of a ministry in in Israel right now

47:32

Baruch Mayos and the only reformed Baptist Church in Israel and everything they do they have enemies who are who are enemies on a theological basis and a theological basis only these people hate the gospel they've gotten members their church fired from their jobs they constantly file frivolous lawsuits

47:54

I mean it is just constant religious persecution during this time they are enemies for your sake but Paul reminds us but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers for the gifts and calling of God irrevocable and so there is this this this statement concerning the fact that God's not done yet and and if you ask me what he's gonna do in the future

48:17

I don't know I really don't I've read so many different things and the problem is it gets into eschatology at that point

48:23

I just go tilt and you know that's the end of that so I did hear there's a really I just heard yesterday and this is the first time

48:29

I've mentioned this to anyone even the people on the other side of the wall here are not aware of what

48:35

I'm about to tell you so you you are on the inside right now okay you ready for this yeah there's a brand new book coming out from Calvary Press Calvary Press did dangerous airwaves and the

48:47

Potter's freedom there's a brand new book coming out from Calvary Press called eschatology made easy all right

48:55

I am excited I I said good send me a review copy so I can figure out what in the world is

49:01

I believe that'll be wonderful it's actually by an author that is very very good and unfortunately my brain isn't working very well today and I can't remember who it was but he's a good author so it should be really good so anyways it'll get us into that so I think that in that context now

49:17

I've heard verse 29 used in a million different ways yeah most of which had absolutely positively nothing to do with what

49:25

Paul was talking about there but in that context that's the specific application now can you can you expand it out from there yes but you always have to be careful with with expansion yeah all righty sir all right thank you all right thanks for calling god bless bye -bye 8 7 7 7 5 3 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 41 idiots guide eschatology no it is not the idiots guide to eschatology that would be a good thing to to write however it would probably sell well as long as you put a recommendation by J Bez in the front do you know how many people would think that J Bez really did recommend that book if you put one on the front do you know how many people be so clueless as to what in the world's going on the world that they'd actually hey look

50:13

J Bez says it's a good book I should buy should buy that book isn't no unbelievable anyway 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 41 let me see here

50:25

Newark is that like Newark New Jersey are there

50:30

Christians in New Jersey oh we had a New Jersey caller before didn't we yeah okay let's go ahead and talk with Tim and Newark are you still there

50:37

Tim yeah this is Tim in Newark California oh of course long lost buddy yeah of course well yeah

50:44

I couldn't figure that we'd have anybody from New Jersey I mean I mean talk about well anyways

50:53

I'm sorry all of you who are in New Jersey I'm not I just had a tough time there the last time

51:00

I was there okay I got to like visit the entire state just because I was trying to get off the Garden State Parkway so it's just it's just you know

51:08

I'm still recovering from it and I have I have nightmares about it so anyways Tim in the other

51:13

Newark on the other side in another state where there's almost no Christians either and you have a question about about Fred Phelps how could you have a question about Fred Phelps well his crew came over here recently and I kind of engaged with them that didn't last long oh no

51:33

I what was good about it though why that circus gathered all the people

51:38

I was preaching to all the kids and there were news people and the police officers so it worked out kind of good but because they stirred up you know a lot of people because they had this

51:50

Laramie project you know that's a play that's going on about Matthew Shepard and they came to boycott it here in my city and then a couple of the pastors that spoke up about it you know they went to their churches to protest first you know they have to have their calendar we're going to be here at this time and then there at that time right so I went over there with Brother G and the camera and tried to engage with them to reason of course

52:14

I knew they were unreasonable Rich told me that you had an encounter with him and I was kind of curious you know what's your perspective on him you know

52:22

I tried to challenge him about the Matthew Shepard uh Fred wasn't there himself but I asked the guy said you know he said

52:30

Matthew Shepard in hell for four years ago I go the man lied dying for a couple hours out there in the desert or wherever and how do you know

52:39

I didn't cry out in the last minutes of his breath and I and he goes well why don't you get out here with the sign that says that and I said well

52:49

I go well you don't know for a fact I go and I go I didn't even see anything about Jesus here

52:54

I go you know it so basically what it came down to he says this is the message and I said what Matthew Shepard's in hell

52:59

I said you ought to preach the gospel Jesus Christ and him crucified and you know that one of the ladies came up to me and she you know got me all riled up and I ended up you know yelling a little bit just to try to yell over her voice and she they end up telling me

53:14

I'm a heretic I'm not because I said you guys are reformed in theology right and they end up calling me after a few minutes an

53:21

Armenian heretic I'm going to hell and I'm a more fag and a blue than a fag themselves and I was just wondering what your opinion and what your encounter was like well yeah we talked about it briefly when was it

53:36

I don't know this was about it I guess it was a full year ago now when they showed up up in Salt Lake City and Fred Phelps was with them and he yeah it wasn't it was

53:50

October last year because I had debated Barry Lynn in May and Barry Lynn had had asked me about Fred Phelps and at that time

53:58

I had said well look I can't comment on the man because I've never met him and never talked to him

54:05

I've heard him on the radio and what he says is weird and strange but the things you're telling me I've not seen and I hadn't looked into him and so we're saying they're watching these folks and they have these disgusting signs and yeah they had the

54:17

Matthew Shepard of course that time three years in hell but and they were screaming yelling about America being a satanic nation and they're holding a flag upside down and they were just really making a you know really making the

54:33

Mormons want to listen what they have to say as if this is relevant of course they were there at the conference because they had been told that Mel White and his group are going to be there well

54:42

Mel White his group didn't show up there about two or three homosexual Mormons with a gay pride flag standing someplace else and it was it was just it was just a spectacle but anyways

54:54

I walked up to Phelps introduced myself told him that I had the debated

54:59

Barry Lynn that I was writing book for Bethany house on the subject elder reform

55:06

Baptist Church etc etc and he's like oh you know and he's you know sort of listen and then my all

55:16

I said all I said was after introducing myself

55:21

I said so as you can see you know

55:26

I have taken a very public firm stance against homosexuality the fact that it is not consistent with biblical

55:33

Christianity however sir we are told in the scriptures to speak the truth in love that's as far as I got as soon as I said we are to speak the truth in love he goes you're a

55:47

God hater and a Bible hater and as soon as he did that all his people descended on me and got between me and him it was obviously a signal it was meant to indicate

55:58

I have someone here who who opposes me and immediately these these these people come zooming down and be in between me and him and start yelling and screaming and and acting like a complete and total loons and that was that was all

56:15

I was able to say to the man and as I watched they have the they had their young people they're holding these signs and yelling these things that they're hate mongers they don't have the foggiest idea what the

56:27

Spirit of God is with the truth of God is they they are they are very clearly individuals who are motivated solely by hatred and not by anything else and they should be exposed for what they are and anyone who is a believer should distance themselves as much as possible from this kind of thing because it it brings great rebuke upon the gospel of Christ because they do not even when they say true words you can say true words in a context that makes them a lie and that's exactly what these people do so thankfully they haven't shown up again and I think most people are are well aware of the fact that they do not represent true biblical

57:09

Christianity in any in any way shape or form I have another question in kind of the same regard okay we'll hold on just a second we'll hold you through the break and we'll be right back on the dividing line call in at 877 -753 -3341 and welcome back to the dividing line my name is

57:48

James White we are taking your phone calls today and I have been reminded about some things

57:53

I haven't mentioned for those of you who have been wondering we do have the mp3s of the open theism and inclusivism is inclusivism up are they both up both open theism and include

58:09

I know the open theism not yet uh -huh okay so just the open theism debate is up and the inclusivism debate

58:21

I'm sure is not far behind because someone's working on the audience questions it was easier for the other debate because the audience questions were read from the podium so we had them right on the tape but the not all the audience questions came through with sufficient clarity to hear on the on the inclusivism debate so those will be available and then shortly after that hopefully the videos as well and so those are available on the site and don't forget we're coming up on just a barely a year out and you go a year it's forever now it's not forever coming up on a year out from the cruise in the eastern

59:02

Caribbean we're gonna be talking about Islam and the issues of defending the faith in regards to Islamic apologetics on the

59:11

Alpha Omega Ministries cruise on the Zondam and that's going to be a really good time together

59:18

I'm looking forward to it I know for me I don't measure time by time anymore

59:23

I measure it by projects primarily on the basis of books and debates and trips that's that's how

59:31

I I look at at time now and so that seems like forever away for me because I know what

59:41

I have to do between now and then but it's not and you need to get on our website and we do have the information on the website right

59:49

I know we do yep okay hit our website click on the thing get hold of Michael Fallon and let him know of your interest the sooner you do that the better for everyone concerned and we'll be getting together and doing that next

01:00:06

December of next year first first week around that time of December of next year down in the

01:00:14

Caribbean so those you especially up in the colder climbs will enjoy getting opportunity to sort of extend the warmer portion of the year just a little bit before you get into those wonderful months of January February March where you're always you know digging out from snow things like that so keep those things in mind let's go back to our phone callers and let's talk next with Keith right here in beautiful 77 degree

01:00:45

Phoenix Arizona no no no okay I won't go with what's actually on the screen right now we still have

01:00:55

Tim oh all right well I thought I thought we had it sounded really weird when we when we went into break it was just like everything died

01:01:03

I thought maybe we hung up on the poor guy you're there have you ever seen

01:01:13

Shrek no you never saw the movie Shrek oh man but I mean like on DVD or something like that there's this one point where where donkey is talking to Shrek and he's talking about uncomfortable pauses and there's an uncomfortable pause but since you didn't see it it's really

01:01:33

I can make a difference okay okay yes sir yeah

01:01:39

I was gonna mention something about I guess the Bible believers King James only guys that thrashed you at the conference

01:01:46

I understand oh they're a lovely group you know cuz I know a few of them around here one

01:01:54

I've been trying to work with this came a long ways and what I was wondering is when when are you gonna have that article and maybe some

01:02:02

DVI files from the video you took from these guys cuz I need some some good evidences of some of their behavior towards you well it'd be really good for me and my apologetic work over here yeah well

01:02:15

I'm not the one to talk to you about that the fellow with the on the list which means it's not gonna happen at least not during our lifetimes anyways they got to talk that other guy the guy who answers the phones he's the one with the with the that kind of stuff in fact he even started to write an article we were gonna put on the web page but you know he he got an air compressor that's the problem and now he's got all these pneumatic tools and you know there you know he just loves that that sound is just really exciting to him and it's you know it's it's a sad thing to see but you know so he's he that's what he wants to do this all the time so they ask him about it cuz

01:03:04

I I I've sort of moved on I mean I give him a ring and maybe next week or so but so these people you know

01:03:13

I can't understand some of the ways they go about you know their so -called evangelism is kind of backfires similar to Phelps's well they don't you gotta understand these folks you cannot reason with these individuals we've tried to there's they they you're if you're asking for consistency if you're asking for them to to be pondering biblical truths or looking for you know looking at things from another perspective they don't they don't do that they they they revel in being as simple -minded as possible and consider their their their ignorance of truth to be a godly attribute so you know people all you're being rough just watch them for a while just stand back and watch these people for a while it is absolutely positively amazing it truly is so what one quick question before I let you go here you let me go on like when

01:04:18

Phelps you know they're calling me names this and that oh where can we show in Scripture that that's not right and also

01:04:25

I've seen the Bible believers like at a wine festival they calling people drunkards they call girls that are wearing loose clothing whores and stuff

01:04:33

I mean we're what a Christian you know you know first of all they're not gonna listen to you anyways they no passage of Scripture has any warrant for them because they don't really believe the

01:04:44

Bible they believe their traditions they may they may use Bible verses but they've never you could tell these individuals

01:04:50

I mean when I when I tried to get them for example to deal with Hebrews 13 17 those who have the rulership over you there their response to that was my elder is

01:05:02

Jesus and it's like well this is in the plural but my elder is Jesus I mean that's that's the kind of mentality you're dealing with that you can you can quote all the verses about speaking the truth and love and and how your speech is to be seasoned with grace and all the rest of the stuff it's irrelevant to them they could totally completely care less there is no reasoning with these people they are not functioning in a in on a rational basis so there's just no no reason even try to be perfectly honest with you

01:05:31

I've given up on anyways all righty thanks a lot man appreciate your input on that all right god bless but all right now we go to Keith here in 77 degree beautiful Phoenix Arizona and oh that was interesting that's yep still 77 degrees humidity 14 % folks dew point 25 degrees it is this is why people move here through throughout the entire winter it's just like it's gorgeous yes sir

01:06:02

Keith how can I help you sir I was having a discussion with a friend of mine today who's also a believer and he was in specifical relationship to a

01:06:11

Jewish person that he knows and he was talking about their relationship with God and how godly this person is and it was kind of my contention that a non -christian person doesn't have a relationship with God or at least not a proper one and also that realistically a non -christian person can't really be well yeah two things relationship to God the greatest impediment to the relationship with God is the issue of sin and the only way of dealing with that issue of course person being spiritually dead isn't going to have much relationship with God in the first place but is through the work of Jesus Christ so our society finds the assertion that the only true way of having relationship with Christ with God is through Christ to be extremely offensive and many we got to realize many people in evangelical churches are so infected with a postmodern mindset that when they hear that stated they automatically recoil from it because of how deeply we are influenced by the society around us but you were you're certainly correct that as far as having a relationship a union with God a person else who rejects the atoning work of Jesus Christ makes

01:07:31

God a liar they remain in their sins the wrath of God abides there is a relationship but is the relationship of the wrathful judge and the sinner who abides underneath that wrath that's that's the first thing as far as this person being godly

01:07:45

I'd obviously depends on how you define godly if you define godly only in a moralistic sense then there are godly muslims and there are godly hindus and there are godly buddhists in the sense of by common grace doing those things that the law written upon our hearts demands that we do

01:08:03

I mean an atheist can can come over and help you with your you know change your tire that doesn't doesn't give them eternal life

01:08:11

I mean that's just doing the minimum let alone fulfilling the actual law godliness goes far beyond mere morality and embraces one's motivations and everything else and of course if you do not if you're not doing these things to the glory of Christ then how could that be a truly godly action okay so that's that's how

01:08:33

I'd respond to such a person and you know and again it's sort of tests where they're coming from as far as do they have a biblical worldview or they have a humanistic worldview and there's a lot of people that call themselves

01:08:45

Christians who have a primarily humanistic worldview right it's it's sad but true all righty thank you sir enjoy the beautiful day all right eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one and we go to not

01:09:02

I I would like to talk to Syzygus but there's some guy named

01:09:08

Brock on the line so I guess I'll talk to Brock first so so Brock not knowing who you are what's your question

01:09:16

I'll give you a quick answer what you sound a lot like him though are you related maybe but you know you give such a bad time to we folks here in California you know it's either our clocks or our weather or or your fires your earthquakes your race riots your your state government your electric electrical supply

01:09:42

Hollywood do I need to go on okay all right okay just I cannot believe you did that oh oh okay okay oh there you are okay just a second hold on just a moment here and okay all righty there you go all right now oh you'll find out when you get done yes yes this is true that's so kind of you after I kicked you to do that it's so nice but it is it is true

01:10:30

I did they they used to have them I do remember them because I remember going wow you know that would really be cool but the time this was back you know in the 80s the church

01:10:40

I was going to big huge massive church I think for about like three years running did not obviously all the

01:10:48

Messiah but did major portions of Messiah so it's sort of like I got all of it that I wanted and then as soon as I didn't have access that it's like poof the the sing -alongs oh well and you are doing one is what you'd like to announce to an entire national audience right and you are doing one right yes well would you like to give us some examples here let me play a little okay here this is and the glory of the

01:11:22

Lord you're ready I'm sorry okay you're it's not what you're at calling about one no actually

01:11:28

I was calling about something else it's kind of an open -ended question but I figure oh Warren wants to sing with you I just got a notification that Warren would like to sing all right if you walked in with Warren at a sing -along you'd be the first two people ever ushered out but we really don't have room for you sorry okay your question is

01:11:53

I'm sorry so my question is regarding interpretation of Old Testament writers by New Testament authors

01:12:00

I'm getting a horrible squawk there I could just barely hear me you sound you sound okay okay so you know for example

01:12:07

I noticed when I was flipping through dangerous airwaves you touched on the Sarah Hagar interpretation in Galatians and you know there's some allegorical treatment there and then there's also the prophecy he shall be called a

01:12:21

Nazarene which you know possibly comes from this air and Isaiah prophecy but maybe it's not as clear as we would like to see so you know how do we understand from New Testament writers hermeneutic the way in which we're supposed to do hermeneutics is there extension we can draw from some of that well look and say well that's just their privilege under inspiration well

01:12:46

I think there's one one major difference is that they're not dealing primarily with didactic literature that can be interpreted in the same way they are dealing with signs and and and figures and prophecies that necessarily utilize symbolism and things like that and so that introduces

01:13:10

I mean we actually do use the same kind of interpretive method when dealing with New Testament apocalyptic literature at least we should

01:13:18

I mean of course that's not how to sell millions and millions and millions of copies of books but yeah yeah you know but that's how we're supposed to do it anyway so we do recognize that in dealing with the same kind of literature in the

01:13:33

New Testament which is not as prevalent of course but that we do utilize similar methodologies of interpretation so there's one difference there there is of course the the fact that Luke records for us the

01:13:47

Lord instructing the disciples on the witness of the Old Testament and so we are given by the

01:13:53

Lord himself a paradigm that we have to take seriously and that is that it's

01:14:00

God's intention to to direct us to himself in what he has given to his church now there's a tremendous amount actually of of controversy amongst and we're not talking about Harold Camping followers either there's a tremendous amount of controversy even amongst reformed folks as to exactly where you draw the line there there are those who for example there are those who would say that what we do at our church where when we read the

01:14:30

Old Testament we make application we would say for example if you look at what you know how

01:14:39

David responds to certain situations that we can apply that to our lives that we can learn lessons about being godly men and women from how

01:14:47

David acts there are people who say that's absolutely completely out the window you should never do that that in reality everything needs to be brought to Christ everything is a picture of Christ everything somehow has to be made

01:15:03

Christa centrically related and not in any way draw a moral story out of any of that stuff so there you know there's folks that just really come down hard on that and I remember a church

01:15:14

I ministered in what about 18 18 to 24 months ago now actually it's two years ago this

01:15:21

December that that was that was tearing the church up where people that got into this and said you you cannot preach the

01:15:28

Old Testament without preaching Christ in every single context so on so forth so there's actually a lot of discussion

01:15:36

I tend more toward looking at how Gleason Archer and others have answered issues in regards to was

01:15:45

Matthew taking Hosea out of context or things like that I think that there's reasons for saying no did not and I'm sure you've looked at his his work what's it called the old what's the name of that book maybe you haven't don't you hate it when someone says well

01:16:08

I'm sure you've looked at this before and you're going I am the foggiest idea of this guy's talking about Old Testament and fortunately it's behind a bookshelf so I cannot see it

01:16:18

I know exactly where it is on my bookshelf but it's by Gleason Archer it's used the of the New Testament you know this is the

01:16:24

Old Testament the new that you might find very useful in working through some of those particular passages but I think that at least we can we can make a case that it was not what is called pressure interpretation and that is that if you've studied

01:16:43

Midrash or any of the Jewish writings you know that they would latch on to basically anything it's sort of you know a

01:16:52

Jewish herald camping ism and it just basically says look the the text is just a your playground you know find similarities in words find similarities in the forms of letters whatever it might be and go from there

01:17:06

I I don't believe that that's what Paul was engaging in there are liberal scholars who would who would argue that however they would say it most definitely is yeah okay all right well and unrelated point

01:17:20

I'd love to hear you do a show sometime my new perspectivism spend the whole time on that that's really up and rising and I know that a lot of people who are getting pulled into it now and yeah actually

01:17:30

I was taught that that was somewhat related to the previous question on on first Peter but yeah it is it is now you know a lot of people are asking me why didn't you address that in your book because that's the subjects about well when

01:17:43

I encountered it I encountered it in seminary and it was still very much in the in the liberal realm of things it wasn't presented as something

01:17:52

I I mean there was lots of things that were presented to me when I was in at fuller seminary that you know way out in the ozone layer someplace and and I just sort of catalog that along with it and it was only during the writing of my book that it really started getting more and more mainline people like John Armstrong and others pushing

01:18:13

NT right stuff and in fact funny you mentioned that let me dig down here I well there's all my tungsten tea stuff sorry

01:18:23

Pete well I look at stuff that came with that it's really cool I'm holding in my hands the

01:18:29

Reformation revival journal for volume 11 number one winter 2002 so this is this is current they mentioned my book but criticized it as not dealing with the new scholarship and what what concerned me was on pages well they put a page in this stuff here we go 117 and following a

01:18:55

Reformation and revival journal interview with NT right and it is very very positive it is really meant to in essence promote rights perspective and he says a lot of things in here that are just very should very much concern you you know he calls it the fresh perspective and things like that but one of the things that just just blew me away was his discussion of 2nd

01:19:23

Corinthians chapter 5 and yeah here the invitation of Christ righteousness is one of the big sticking points for sure

01:19:32

I think I know exactly what the doctrine is about I believe you don't lose anything by the route I propose that always worries me when someone talks like that the force of what people have believed when they have used the idea of imputation is commonly is completely retained and what

01:19:47

I've tried to do in other words he rejects imputation but seemingly feels you can still get the same point by another route which makes me go excuse me why because in Christ we have all the treasures not only of wisdom and knowledge but in whom we have the entire package meaning sanctification wisdom as well as righteousness so Paul's theology of being in Christ gives you all of that but the fact that it gives you more than that does rock you back on your heels a bit and prompt you to ask how we made too much of this one thing called righteousness the key text which is synchronous 521 has been read for generations ever since Luther at least as an isolated detached statement of wondrous exchange when we do this we forget that the entire passage for the three chapters led up to it and the chapter and a half that follow are about apostleship these are all about the strange way in which the suffering of the

01:20:34

Apostle somehow is transmuted into the revelation of God's glory in the middle of the statement in the middle of this the statement occurs that God made him to be sin who knew no sin so in him we might we might become the righteousness of God after this

01:20:46

I started to read the kaya soon a say you the righteousness of God as covenantal faithfulness in Romans I said

01:20:53

I then suddenly thought wait a minute what about synchronous 521 and then I realized that the whole thing here is second

01:21:00

Corinthians 3 the New Covenant God has made us ministers the New Covenant we are embodying the covenant faithfulness of God I can see how frustrating is for a preacher who has preached his favorite sermon all these years on the imputation of Christ's righteousness in second

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Corinthians 521 to hear that this is not the right way to understand it but I actually think there's an even better sermon waiting to be preached you can always preach one first Corinthians 130 as long as you do wisdom sanctification redemption all three so in essence it seems to me he's saying what that passage is about is that we as Apostles are demonstrations of God's covenant faithfulness now that is not what

01:21:34

Paul's talking about but that's what you're left with is this new perspectivism so yeah we're gonna have to deal with it much more in the future and it's it's something else and you hear that sound in the background thank you very much sir and let's just let us know that he's allowed back in channel now thanks for calling thanks for listening today folks this is the dividing line we'll be back again hmm not next week well maybe

01:22:00

I don't know what we're gonna do cuz I'm in st. Louis but we'll talk to y 'all sometime this week God bless the dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 0 3 1 8 or write us at P .O.

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01:23:07

RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next