Matt Slick Live: June 20, 2024

Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Tongues in the Church

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome back to the show. Because yesterday we had a show. And if you wanna give me a call today, all you gotta do is dial 877 -207 -2276. And we had phone problems yesterday. Yesterday was the 19th of June.

Today is June 20th. And so I just wanna ask that if you wanna give me a call, please do. 877 -207 -2276. And hopefully everything should be fine and everything will work, okay? Because they had phone problems yesterday and today they worked on them and everything is good.

So praise God for that. Let's see if I got everything in here.

There we go.

I always forget one thing. Almost always one thing and I just did. So I should work now. All right, there we go. Hey, we got a call coming in. Hopefully the phones will be fine. They had problems yesterday.

I was on their end and that just happens. And yesterday I taught on Romans chapter three, which I enjoyed. And then I talked to some more Roman Catholics last night. I really enjoy discussing things with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

It's really grounding me in the truth of God's word. And it's really amazing to me how utterly blinded they are. Just incredibly blinded. The things that they will do. They worship the church, they serve the church.

It's not Jesus, it's the church. And it's pathetic, it's bad. And where I prove that the Bible contradicts what they say about salvation, what the Catholic church says, they don't care. They believe the church.

It's just, it's bad. But anyway, I spent some time yesterday going through Romans three and four and also Galatians two and three and five and discussed a lot of stuff. All right, so there we go. I hope the sound is okay in stream yard, club deck, and on Rumble.

Because it sounds good, it says there. Good, good, good.

Okay, good.

All right, let's get to Danielle from North Carolina. Welcome, Danielle. You're on the air.

Hi, Matt.

I have a question. I have a friend who attended a church service and they were speaking in tongues or worshiping in tongues. And the pastor was talking and speaking in tongues. And they approached my friend at some point during the service and asked if they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And they said, well, I've recently been baptized. And they said, well, do you speak in tongues? And she said, no. So it started me looking into the scriptures. And I don't see anything that specifically talks about the baptism of the Holy Spirit other than the one baptism that believers do once they profess their faith.

I thought you could help me with that.

Sure, it sounds like your friend went to, probably went to a United Pentecostal church. One of the ways of testing is to see how they pronounce the Holy Ghost. They'll say the Holy Ghost. And I don't know what and I don't know why, but that's just a cross pattern across them.

And so I'm talking to somebody on the web and they say, well, you've been baptized in the Holy Ghost. And then I go, oh, wait, what church do you go to? And invariably they go to United Pentecostal, which is a cult.

And they teach the issue of baptism in the Holy Spirit. Now the question whether or not the gifts are for today, I affirm they are. In fact, I'll be debating it in Salt Lake City, actually in Draper, Utah, this Saturday in two days on the 22nd.

Let's see, 22nd, yeah, 22nd at 6 p .m.

But I'll give more information about that in a little bit.

So what we're hearing here, what it sounds like is people doing things improperly because in 1 Corinthians 14, it says the tongues are to be done by two at the most, three. That's it with interpretation.

Otherwise, keep quiet. So when a pastor gets up and just starts talking in tongues and there's no interpretation, then he needs to keep quiet. If he doesn't, if he continues, he's out of line. If he's doing it just because he wants to do it, he's out of line.

He needs to be rebuked politely, the elderly need to step in, so you can't do that. So when they say the whole congregation starts speaking in tongues or singing in tongues, that's chaos. Because in 1 Corinthians 14, it talks about people, you know, y 'all speak in tongues, well, the unbeliever come in, they'll think you're crazy.

And that things be done in order. So sometimes they'll say, well, you know what, you can sing in tongues, because in the Bible it says praying in tongues. Can't do it all at once, but you can sing in tongues, which is stupid.

Because if someone comes into a congregation and they're all singing in tongues, they'll say, oh, that's okay. But if they're all speaking in tongues at once, then it's not okay, it's confusing. So the level of incompetence when it comes to applying this biblically, the level of incompetence is incredible in Christian churches that do this across the board, and particularly in the cults that often do this as well.

So long story short, I believe the gifts are still here. But there's a lot of fakery, and you don't have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to get the charismatic gifts. Because in 1 Corinthians 14, one, Paul says, pursue the spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

And one who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues. The reason that these cults would speak in tongues instead of prophesying is because you can't verify the tongues. You know, you can say something like, domi hola rengaku, which is a Buddhist chant, or you can say, gotta buy a Honda, you know,.

Gotta buy a Honda.

And you can say it really fast, and you can have all kinds of things you're saying, and nobody translates it, nobody knows, there's no verification. So they'll do this. Prophecy's different. Because with prophecy, it can be tested.

So they go to the emotional stuff with these tongues, instead of sticking with what the biblical pattern and positioning is, and they make, they abuse it if it's real, and they misuse it if it's, and faked when it's not, okay?

Thank you, that confirms exactly what I found in Scripture. And so I'm going to advise my friend to really be careful and, you know, seek the Scriptures. And while I'm at it, in 1 Corinthians 14, I wondered if you could explain verses 34 and 35 about how it says women should keep silent in the churches.

Yes, now the word silent there is sagao, and it means absolute silence, not uttering a word. And this is an interesting thing here, because when Paul says in 1 Timothy 2 .12, he says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority, but to remain quiet.

And that word is hesukea, and you can be more quiet, you can be more hesukea, but you can't be more sagao, you can't be more silent. Silent means absolutely nothing. So what's going on? Well, this is a debated area of Scripture.

And when I say that, I don't mean we can't understand it, I'm saying that it's a debated area of Scripture. So it says women are to keep silent in the churches. One of the things they think, the commentators think is going on here, in the culture, in the context, was that in the churches there, the men would sit up front, the women sat in the back.

It wasn't an inferiority thing, it was just a purity thing. Men and women didn't mix in public if you weren't married. And so they wouldn't intermix one man's wife with another man sitting next to him in a pew, they wouldn't do that kind of thing, so they kept them separate.

So one of the theories is that because in Christianity, the women had newfound freedoms, that they were speaking up in the congregation and saying, what do you say up front? Because the preacher would be up front, and I've been in a synagogue, a rebuilt synagogue in Jerusalem of the day, and they're kind of small, at least when I was in was small.

The bigger ones make it more difficult to hear because they're made of stone and they echo, and it's just not that clear. So anyway, so one of the theories is, don't speak up in church, be quiet, don't talk, don't do that, ask your husband at home.

Because if they desire to learn anything, let her ask her husband, like it says, at home, the next verse, for it's improper to a woman to speak in church. So the question then is, is it improper because of this situation that was going on?

And we know because women were communicating in church contexts in other parts of scripture, like Phoebe was doing that. And so, and then we had the first, the, in 1 John, oh, where is that? I think it's 1 John 2, let me go, it's been a while.

Let's see.

And the lady, what was it? The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth. This is 2 John 1. And for the sake of the truth which abides in us, and the children walking. So I'm trying to find it because there's a place where it says that meets in her house and things like that.

So anyway, this is why it's so difficult because they're trying to balance it with the whole of scripture. Now, they're not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church because Adam was first created.

So that's tied to the created order. But here in 1 Corinthians 14, 35 through the end of the chapter, it's more difficult. So we're not exactly sure because it says, ask your husbands at home that it's improper for them to speak in church.

Well, what kind of improper? Culturally improper or not? Furthermore, we know, I forget exactly where it is, 1 Corinthians 11, I believe women are to have their heads covered. And so this was also a cultural thing because the glory of, I'll put it this way, the head covering was a symbol of her submission to authority.

And so women are under the authority of their husbands. It does not mean they're inferior. It just means that he's the spiritual head of the house. And that's just how it works in federal headship and the ordination that God has set up.

Just as the father sent the son and the son was doing what the will of the father was, if he wasn't lesser, he was equal, but a difference in function, the same way with the husband and the wife. And so the symbol of authority of their head was the head covering, which I think is really cool when I see ladies in the church doing that, which I don't see very often because the church I go to doesn't do that, but I just like it.

I think it's feminine.

I think it's neat.

So what we say today about that is, well, you don't need a symbol of authority over your head because it's not a cultural norm because it was a cultural norm out there. In that culture, a woman could be divorced if she let her hair down in public because that was a sensuous thing that was for the husband only.

And so what she was doing by letting her hair down in public, if she were to do that, was she was joining herself with the prostitutes. And so that was a horrible thing to do. So they put a veil over their hair, symbolizing it wasn't letting it down, but retaining the modesty that was to be public and that the full hair, letting the hair down was for the household, for the husband, for the family.

So that's why the symbol was there for that. So they think there's a lot of cultural stuff going on here with the women in that context and in this context, and it's difficult to say for sure. I don't know if that helps or not.

Matt, thank you. I agree with you. And I agree that that's what the scripture says. I just had one more question about the last line of verse 35, where it says, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

Was that, did that apply to the culture back then or does it apply now as well?

I don't think it applies now. I really don't think it applies now. I think it's cultural. It's improper for a woman to speak in church because they were too, I'm going to back up here and try and establish a little bit more of women mindset in that ancient culture.

So a man who was married to a woman, I'll get back in the break, I'll explain this because I think it's going to have some bearing on this.

Because it's interesting. I'll be right back, okay?

Okay, hold on. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. If you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. I'll be right back. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Daniel or Danielle.

Sorry about that.

Welcome. You're still there?

Yeah. Okay.

So a little background and I'll get into some other ideas about this text. So you may remember that in the biblical accounts, for example, Sarah and Abraham and she couldn't have a child, so she gave Hagar to him and he placed his seed in Hagar.

The seed was like a seed that you could put anywhere in the ground. It just needed ground to form, but it was the seed that was considered important. This is why she could give Hagar to him. His seed would grow in that fertile ground, but it was still his seed.

And since she was married to Abraham, it was her child. So this kind of a concept was there about women. Women were not property, but they were almost considered property, but they weren't because the mindset of a lot of people back then was very protective of women.

So women were to be very, very modest, hair was to be covered and they weren't to go out in public by themselves, which is why it's a shock when Jesus in John four goes to the well and she's by herself with him because normally women go out in groups of women or one woman with a male protector in the family.

Otherwise it's improper because she's out there carousing on her own. She's not under the proper authority and headship. This kind of an attitude was very, very prevalent. And also what's kind of interesting in it is that women could do and say things men couldn't do and they could get away with stuff.

They could get into a face of somebody and really read them the riot act where if a man did the same thing, it'd be in a fight. So women could, they were considered lesser in strength, lesser in this, lesser in that, but they were protected by the men and the extended family.

So they could get away with stuff. It's kind of interesting juxtaposition. Now, so two men would be walking along the road. If one said to the first man, how's your wife doing? That could be considered very rude.

What do you mean to ask about my wife? And so you had to be very good friends before you could really talk about the family and other stuff. So anyway, it gets into that. Okay, so in light of that, it was true that in the Greek culture and the Jewish customs that women were always in the background of public affairs.

Men were the ones who had the authority. Men were the ones who vote really counted, not the women. So women were to be quiet, they're to be silent. And here in the Christian church, suddenly they're not.

Furthermore, it's in the context of prophecy because in verse 31, for you can all prophesy one by one. Okay, the spirit of the prophets are subject of the prophets. It doesn't say only the men can prophesy, but you all can.

So now another theory is that what they're talking about here is that the women would prophesy and maybe they were prophesying, but it's one of the theories. And that it was inappropriate for them to do that.

But it does say, if they wanna learn anything, let them ask. Well, if you're prophesying, you're not learning the Holy Spirit's working on you and through you. So that theory, not that strong. And so it seems to be that, and let's see.

Oh, and one last thing is that it says, let them ask their own husbands. So there's also this aspect of, what about single women that were there? You could have a single woman there as long as she's with her brother or brother-in-law or father or something like that in that context because she's covered that sense.

So here it's mentioning husbands. So it might be that the husband-wife relationship is what's examined here. And if a woman whose husband is present and she's asking questions, she's out of order because she's under his headship and she needs to ask him.

So you see, there's just a lot here and it's hard to say exactly what it is. I hope it's not too confusing. If it helped even, I don't know.

No, I really appreciate it, Matt. And it just helps me a lot. And I will continue just digging into the scriptures to really understand this more. I hope you have a great rest of your day. God bless you.

Sure, and tell you what, if you find stuff that I haven't mentioned, call me up and let me know. I'd love to hear that I'm always learning and open to being taught, especially from women. Okay, I don't have any problem with that, all right?

So that's good.

Thank you.

You're welcome. All right, Daniel, God bless. All right, we have nobody waiting. If you wanna give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. Let's see, so tomorrow I'll not be on the air live. We'll have a recorded show.

And the reason is because I'll be driving down to that infamous state called Utah, as some pronounce it Utah. And I'll be going down there on Friday because I don't wanna go down on Saturday because if I'm kind of flat or something, I won't make the debate.

I'm gonna be in on Saturday. I'll be debating Andrew Rappaport Saturday at 6 p .m. in Draper near Sandy, people who know are listening. It's 35, really room for 35 people. So here's the thing. I don't know if it's gonna be packed.

I don't know if it's gonna be empty. I do know that my friend Ed Romine's gonna be there and he warned me he's gonna be there. And I tease him a lot, he's a good guy. So he's gonna be there. My wife may be there.

She hasn't decided if she's gonna go or not. Some other people are gonna show up. And Andrew, and Andrew and I are friends and we're gonna debate this issue. I believe that the charismatic gifts for today, he says they've ceased.

Now those are all for simplifications because he has a little blend into what I believe and vice versa. And we'll get into that. And what I've done is I have worked for a few days presenting, producing what I believe is a really cool PowerPoint presentation which I'm gonna give my opening statement which I don't know how long it's supposed to be but it should be long enough to get that done.

And what I wanna do is take all of the information in my slides, I'm gonna print them up and staple them together, take like six pages. And so I'm gonna just give us a handout out there at the place. So I'll have at least 30 of packets of that information.

Now the room that we're gonna have the debate is in the back of the place at the Utah Christian Research Center. Now you can find it by going to utahchristianresearchcenter .com. It's just, it's really easy.

And Bill McKeever, you'll see him on the front. I've known Bill for, I don't know, 30 some odd years. And he's a great guy. I tease him a lot.

And he says to me, you make me laugh.

Son, if he's listening right now. And Eric Johnson will be there. Eric and Bill work together at the Mormonism Research Ministry. They are world-class experts on Mormonism. When I have questions that I can't find an answer to, I call up Bill, I call up Eric.

They'll give me answers. Very, and they're very gracious, very good. They work hard for the ministry, for the things of the Lord and praise God. And so, in fact, Eric leads trips to Europe, for the Bible tours and stuff like that.

We're gonna be going in October. I've already gone with him twice to Israel. And we've been to, right, twice to Israel? I've been twice, or once, twice. And we've been, oh, that's right, it was twice.

And I've also been to Turkey once,.

And we're gonna check it out.

But anyway, so again, if you want to attend that debate, you'll have to get there a little bit early because it's seating. And think of it this way. The place, if you've not been there, is two large-ish rooms joined by a small hallway.

And so, if there's too much, if there's not enough seating where the debate's gonna happen, you might be able to hang out behind it and listen because it's only a 10-foot hallway that separates and you can hear and listen, things like that.

And then afterward, we'll have an after thing showing, talking, and whatever we're gonna do, okay? A lot there. Just remember, utahchristianresearchcenter .com.

Check it out.

The address is all there and everything. We'll be right back after these messages.

Please stay tuned.

Women in the Church: Silence, Teaching, and Headship

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live. If you want to give me a call, just dial 877 -207 -2276. Let's get to, let's see if I can pronounce this right.

Eloise, Eloise? How do you pronounce your name?

Eloise. Yeah, Eloise.

Eloise, okay, all right.

Yeah.

Okay, well, so what do you got there?

Well, I was listening to your answer for the woman who was on just before. I got in the car and so I missed her question, so I just got in the middle of you giving her the answer about how women were supposed to act in the church in biblical times.

And my question was, there are some churches today who still believe that those, they use those scriptures to support their belief that women are not to, not that women can't teach men in the church, women can't be preachers, that women can't be deacons or elders, or that women have a very limited role in the church.

And I was wondering if you feel that those scriptures, which were designed for a culture that's different from our culture, if those restrictions still apply.

Yes, they do. And let me explain why. And I'll go through the scriptures and show you, all right? So women are not to be pastors and elders. And any church that has a woman pastor and elder is in sin and rebellion against God, flat out.

Now explain why. Paul says in 1 Timothy 3 .15, I'm gonna read this, because it's 1 Timothy 3. He says, in case I'm delayed, I write to you. So that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God.

So he's giving instruction to Timothy on how the church is to be run, how it's to be done. Now, in the context of that, he says in 1 Timothy 2 .12 and 13, he says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet, for Adam was first created.

It's not cultural when he says that, because he's tying it to the created order. And I can get into the theology behind that, but I won't for now. So this is definitely not a cultural thing. He says, because Adam was first created.

This is the order that God gave, so this is why. All right, now in 1 Timothy, I'm gonna read this, 1 Timothy 5 .17, here we go. The elders who rule well. Now, just so you know, in Greek, this is written in Greek.

Greek is an interesting language. It's very, very precise. We don't have a lot of precision in English. So when we have a word table, it's neuter. It's gender, there is no gender, it's just neuter. Table, grass, sky, okay?

But in Greek, nouns have gender and or they can have neutrality. Okay, so the word rulers here, excuse me, elders, I mean, elders is presbuteroi and the O-I ending in Greek is masculine plural. Now, he could have said it in the neutral or the feminine, but he didn't.

Which he says this, the elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. So the preacher now is an elder, okay? Just draw a conclusion for what the scripture says.

So now what I'm gonna do is go to 1 Timothy 3 again and read what he says and then I'm gonna go to Titus and read. We're gonna put it all together. So he says in 1 Timothy 3, one, an overseer. Now, the Greek word there is episkopon, episkopon, and it is in the masculine.

Then must be above reproach the husband of one wife and the Greek is andra mias gounikas, a husband, that's what it means, of one wife, temperate, prudent, et cetera. He must manage his household well, et cetera.

The man does not know how to do that. He can't, et cetera, et cetera. And deacons must likewise be men of dignity. It goes on. These men must be first be tempted or tested, excuse me. And then it says, verse 11, women must likewise be dignified.

So women and men are both mentioned and it's the males who are supposed to be in the office of deacon and overseer, episkopos, which is often translated as bishop. One more thing I'll show you. Titus chapter one, starting at verse five.

Paul says to Titus, for this reason I left you in Crete that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you. Namely, if a man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, an andra mias gounikas there.

See, and he says for the overseer, it's back to that word episkopos again, you know, bishop, must be above reproach, et cetera, et cetera. So we see here, I'll summarize. Women are not to teach or exercise authority.

They can do some teaching. I explained how and what situation. Because Adam was first created, so it's not cultural. It's in the created order of God. Pastors are by definition elders in 1 Timothy 5 .17.

And he says he's giving instruction in how to behave in the household of God in 1 Timothy 3 .15. In Titus chapter one, verses five through seven, the elder is to be a husband of one wife. And in Titus three, he's to be a husband of one wife as well.

So women cannot fit that bill at all, okay?

What was the first scripture that you mentioned, the one that said, you know, mentioned Adam?

1 Timothy 2 .12 through 13. Now, let me explain a little bit more. There's a word there, it says this, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but remain quiet. The word quiet is hesuchia in the Greek.

And it means to keep it down. It doesn't mean absolute silence. So you could become more hesuchia. So it's not saying they can't do teaching because they can teach children and they can certainly teach other women, but they're not to be in ecclesiastical authority over men in the church.

That's the thing, they can't do that. They can't be preachers, okay?

Okay, I can understand that you believe that.

That's what the scripture says. So let me ask you, do you agree or disagree with what God's word says?

What I disagree with about is whether, is the application that you're making for the statement that he makes in 1 Timothy chapter two about Adam was formed first in Eve. Because, you know, the culture at the time was such that there's no way a woman would teach a man.

There was no way a woman would do any of those things. Just because they weren't allowed. And so, and I'm not sure it's all because of that verse in 1 Timothy chapter two, that all of the other statements that you quoted are true.

Well, they are true because it's in the word of God. It's in the word of God, that's why it's true. That's what it says. Okay, you can do what you want, you can dismiss it all you want, but then you've got to answer to God for that.

So when it says in 1 Timothy two, 12, and 13, for Adam was first created, is that a cultural thing or is that based on the created order of God?

No, no, no, no, of course not. Of course not.

Which is it? Which is it?

Yeah, and, but, but.

No, which is it?

We can't, no, it is.

But which is, no, hold on. Which is it? Is it a cultural thing or is it based in the created order of God?

Which is it?

That one is based in the created order of God. Okay, it's not a cultural thing.

Good.

But what I'm suggesting is that there's nothing that says that that statement there applies to every single time when it said that a woman shouldn't do things. Because, you know, he didn't say anything.

I mean, typically Paul would mention other things.

But you're wrong.

He wouldn't mention it in one book.

Excuse me, but you're wrong.

In other books as well.

But you're wrong. Because he says in the next chapter, he's explaining how people are to behave in the household of God. 1 Timothy 3, 15. He's giving instruction on how the church is to be.

Because the women were always caught in trouble. The women just always got in trouble.

No, no, no, you don't understand. No, no, no, you don't understand. There's more to this. There's more to this. Let me just shift gears a little bit. You know why the church is in trouble today? It's not because of women pastors.

It's because men aren't stepping up to do their jobs. When Adam and Eve were in the garden, she sinned first. She gave the fruit to Adam. Then he ate. They both hid. The pre-incarnate Christ came and said, to the man, where are you?

He didn't say, Eve, what have you done? He did not say, Adam and Eve, what have you done? He said, to the man, where are you? The Bible says in Romans 5, 12, sin entered the world through one man, Adam.

It says in Romans 5, 19, through the transgression of the one, that's Adam, the many were made sinners. This is called federal headship, that the male represents the descendants, whether you like it or not, is the issue, because Jesus, the male, represented the people in him, and that's where this doctrine comes from because of the crucifixion.

Because Jesus, in order to redeem his people, had to be the representative of his people, and it's called federal headship, and we are in him, just as we were in Adam. We weren't in Eve, we were in Adam, and I can go to the verses on that.

This is doctrine, this is theology, and I'd love to explain this in depth over a whole hour sometime, maybe I'll do that, but this is what it says, this is why it's important. And so the men are failing to do their job in the church, and that's why women pastors exist.

Women pastors is sinful, and men are sinful for allowing it, and it's gonna come to them first, okay? Now let me ask you, how's a woman gonna be a husband of one wife when it says the elder is to be, and pastor's an elder, how's the elder gonna be a woman if it's a husband of one wife, how's that work?