Jeff Durbin's Pink Tie, Trent Horn and the Word of God

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:31

Well greetings and welcome to for what is us for us a morning edition of the dividing line

00:39

Unusual for us But that's sort of how you have to schedule things these days.

00:45

It's a really really busy week for me I'm not sure how it turned out to be quite that busy but looking at the calendar, it's gonna stay that way all the way through the debate in April and then back home for just a few weeks and then gone all of May and That'll be exciting and especially with the new the new unit and Speaking of all of that I Understand I'm not sure how

01:16

This has happened yet. But Rich says he's ordering lights and cameras and things like that and I'm going

01:22

I Don't remember you even being in the unit long enough to measure anything so I'm not sure how that's happening, but The the work goes forward and your support helps us to be able to do all those things we appreciate that More on that later

01:39

We have an email address. I have been asking for this for a while because ten years ago

01:47

For our 30th anniversary We had an email address. I forget what it was.

01:53

It may have been testimonies at a omen org I don't know, but we had an email address and we just sort of threw it out there.

01:59

We didn't do much for the 30th anniversary But again, if Haven't mentioned it for a while this coming.

02:09

August is our 40th anniversary for Alpha Omega ministries, that's pretty unusual for Christian apologetics ministries and Normally by now

02:23

They've either been absorbed into somebody else Or have gone the way of the world or something

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Just flip it off, but we're we're still here us us old guys we're still here as as I will show you in a moment the old guys are still here and So anyway

02:47

We put that email address up and it was a real blessing to me to be able to read through the material that came in and Obviously You know since 1983 we've we've been busy, you know, in fact,

03:04

I was thinking about some of the people We need to make sure we get in contact with this year That either aren't associated with the ministry anymore, they're just moved away to other things

03:16

Sadly, there's a bunch of guys. We can't contact without engaging in necromancy

03:23

So You know Mark McFaul is gone and Benny's gone

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So that's sort of, you know sobering to think about things like that but So if you want if I guess the email address is active and so if if this ministry has been of assistance and encouragement to you over the past Five years let alone 40 years.

03:55

I mean, I I want to hear from some of the folks that You know long long ago now long long ago

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We were small and almost nobody knew who we were and stuff like that But it was those were the years that lay the foundation for what comes later.

04:09

Everybody wants to skip all that part skip all the Poverty part and get straight to the whoo -hoo part doesn't work that way and But if if you would like to sort of join in in providing some of the celebration of the

04:29

Lord's faithfulness and grace over the years testimonies plural at AOMin .org

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and I won't see those immediately, but I'll eventually have access to those and We would very much appreciate hearing from you.

04:46

I stand For hours after debates at g3 and Get to listen to that type of stuff all the time.

04:55

So it'd be nice to To have some of that in written form. It's it's one thing to have To hear those things

05:03

But I can't remember all of them But if you have them in written form that that's that lasts longer and for us older folks who remember it longer

05:11

Yes, sir. Now I am told that Some of the folks who write in will

05:20

Should expect to be contacted back. Not everybody But there are plans for some video recordings.

05:27

Oh, okay, where? You might want to just be prepared to get in front of a camera or your cell phone or whatever and give that testimony in video form

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It will be requested of you By the people who are monitoring but don't let that stop you if you don't want to do a lot of people

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It'd be like no, no, no It's it's gonna be one of those things to where as they read through if it's really something that they think is

05:55

Gonna be worthwhile at a particular event coming up in early

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October then They'll they'll ask that of you.

06:07

Okay, just putting that out there Testimonies at a omen org testimonies at a omen org.

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Oh, let's see Yeah, yeah, so so yesterday

06:27

I had lunch with the fine woman and her husband and family

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That helps Jason Lyle. She's she's Jason Lyle's Rich, I guess you might say

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So I had lunch with Denise yesterday they were going up to the Grand Canyon so we got together and had lunch

06:48

That was very enjoyable appreciated the opportunity to do that. She gave me a new copy of In fact,

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I left it in the truck and I didn't bring the truck today Um, she gave me a new copy of the fractals book

06:58

They've put it out in hardcopy now if any of you picked up Jason Lyle's fractals book it was paperback and it's now been put out in a hardback and So I highly recommend that it's great great stuff.

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I'm not gonna get into fractals right now, but it's it's fascinating stuff. So hit

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Biblical Science Institute and pick up a new copy, but afterwards I just I was

07:25

Gonna pop over to the new RV. I had parked it on I think when did

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I park it Saturday, I guess Yeah Saturday night And we discovered that once you park it you can't get into it

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I couldn't even get the door open far enough to start pulling the the the stairs out because you know, these

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RV Storage places are pretty tight which also means it's a

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Little bit hair raising to getting getting it in there because you know, I don't want to damage ours

07:59

I certainly want to damage our neighbors And there is a big old pole because it's covered parking anyways sort of necessary in Arizona and So I go over there and yeah

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I can't get the door open and there was one thing I could do outside that I needed to get done But I wanted to be able to get inside.

08:17

There were a couple things. I wanted to do in there like getting the refrigerator doors open Just one of those little things you got it.

08:24

And again, you know, it's amazing how much I learned from Derek Melton just in that one visit because He let me look in his and they had the refrigerator sitting open

08:34

It's like yeah, you don't you gotta do that if you want to avoid mold because it happens and it's like oh, okay

08:41

Thank you, Derek. I learned so much from you If we had just listened to you on the on the on the diesel right up front

08:49

Anyway So I'm driving away. I've already left you have to a little keypad to get out

08:56

I've already left when when rich calls and and He's like, hey, I called the place and they have an open slot at down on the end so there isn't somebody next to you and So I bang a you

09:14

I go back point is I end up spending hours Yesterday I wasn't expecting to spend

09:21

In the middle of all this I get this note from Jeff Durbin, he says

09:27

I'm about to do a live video Because he's found out about the dead man walking podcast contest going on Which I said initially when it first started

09:37

I'm like, you know what? We were up against cross politic just vote for cross politic and let us out of this.

09:44

Okay We've we've done a lot with these things in the past I Remember when

09:51

I was recording for Living Waters in Los Angeles in what about 2017 ish

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We had a big thing and it went down to the finals between the dividing line and sheologians me against my daughter for crying out loud and Now that did result in summer going on the air and giving a concession speech that I really

10:22

I Really wish I still had recording of it because it was it was awesome. It was wonderful But then we had some less positive experiences

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The last big one where Jeff and I did a video and all the rest of the rest of this stuff and Ended up going down the finals

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And the people actually running it were doing everything he could to get the other guy in the finals to win Which he did by like 0 .1

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% But that didn't turn out good. I didn't turn out good at all. So I started got burned out about the whole thing and So He Jeff has found out

11:02

That this is going on in Twitter. Now. The funny thing is this is a Twitter poll. He doesn't do Twitter He even says in this video

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Twitter is a dumpster fire So, I mean he's almost insulting everybody that's in Twitter anyway, you know, and then wants you to go to Twitter the dumpster fire

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To vote for apologia over the dividing line. So he does a 20 21 minute video

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Which is absolutely Oscar worthy. It really is I mean, he's really good at this because remember the last time he did this

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He did this after getting out of the hospital from having seizures Which I think maybe still be affecting him,

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I'm not sure Anyway So I start listening to saying while I'm driving home, and I'm I'm just cackling

11:51

At what he's he has here's here's Jeff's best reasons

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For you not to vote for the dividing line, but to vote for apology radio. Okay The reason number one is that I have a fifth wheel

12:06

I have a fifth wheel trailer So that's why you shouldn't

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Fighting like because he doesn't I guess but Luke Luke does I Think this is a pull behind but Luke has an

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RV. So I'm not anyway Secondly, he's tired Now I just point out

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I preached Sunday night Well Sunday afternoon at apologia a sermon

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I'm sure has already made some of our critics Just Scholastically upset.

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But anyway And I did that because Jeff was the one that was traveling and There are a bunch of times.

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I've filled in for Jeff because He was tired But I'm tired.

12:55

Well, you know, yeah, okay and Third reason was

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He's mean to rich He's mean to rich now. I didn't know that you and Jeff were you know chatting much rich at all

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All I can say is clearly he's taking advantage wherever he can And I still

13:17

I I still want to know what the deal is with this cardboard box that he has for an office that is

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Clearly underground in some way shape or form where he's looking up all the time. You know, I don't get I don't understand

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I'm looking at it right now and That's just the studios that it's just yeah, that's just how they did it

13:34

Well, he should have then appealed to the fact that he's they're very very very very poor indigent live on the streets and operate out

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Of the streets because that's what that looks like, you know, so say You're never gonna repeat that one again.

13:50

Are you Jeff? Oh, no, you're not So then what happened is

13:56

Isaac? Who happens to be my deacon? By the way, just I mean, that's just amazing

14:04

Isaac who along with Carmen were throwing objects rich Jeff didn't even see all the objects that were being thrown at him

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He only I only saw the airplane, but there was other things being thrown out at the same time Isaac interrupts him and So he mentions that I'm old.

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That's my deacon speaking these words like I'm old And that's why you should shouldn't vote for the dividing lines because I'm old and The funny thing is that caused

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Jeff to skip number four Whatever it was. It just got because he's old became number five and number four just got skipped

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And I'm sitting there going, you know rich is older than I am and So if if I'm old then he's saying rich is very old

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Which is sort of mean but he says I should be nicer to rich I'm not really sure you know normally

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Jeff's striving for some level of consistency, but And then he started talking about you know doing dividing lines from the fifth wheel and Sleeping only a few feet away and going ik and I'm sitting there going look

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I know every one of those guys has slept in the studios at some point or another so don't even then I think they've probably slept on that big table that we do the

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Apology radio stuff at such as last week's dialogue with Brandon Robertson I'm sure someone's camped out there more than once so that didn't make any sense

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But I just simply point out my my real concern is, you know, Jeff just had a had a birthday just a matter of days ago and You know, he's heading toward 50

15:47

He's not there yet. He's right in the middle of the 40s But he's he's heading toward 50 and that that weighs on some people's minds, you know, and He had shown up at the church on Sunday night wearing a pink tie a pink tie and I'm I was

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I even said to him as soon as he walked up to me because there's this there's this little

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Not even half you it's just it's a two -person pew That's on the side up toward the front and that sort of become mine ever since I became one of the pastors at Apology I did that's just where I sit and It's not properly attached to the wall.

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So you've got to be really careful if you sit on the edge of it You will flip that baby over. I've seen people going whoa when they slide down it

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So I'm the only one really knows how to sit on it safely anyway So he always comes up and greets me and we say hi and stuff like that He's wearing a pink tie.

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And so I asked him Straight up. He'll tell you I asked him I said, are you trying to make up with Brandon Robertson for what happened earlier?

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And then I said after the after the video hit

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I said, were you wearing that tie just a little bit too tight So I think so I you know,

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I said in my written response to the video I'm like, you know, but wait a minute. Do you have do you have this up here?

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Let me let's let's get Before we get to the serious stuff

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But yeah, here's here's Hopefully Jeff doesn't get hit but with any flying stuff being thrown by Isaac and Carmen During this but you you got it

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Okay, here we go Pierce a bit like, you know that made me lose the last competition

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I will be nicer to rich and that's that's that would help. I think it'd be a good what's that?

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And I think why that was like my fit Okay, Isaac says did you mention that he's old and I think that we kept brought one two, three four

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That'll be the fifth reason is that he's just he's he's getting old guys He's getting old and you know, he already has one of these in the chamber one of these in the bucket

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He's already won one of these he's getting old with the fifth wheel is very tired He's mean to rich and so these are all very good reasons to go to the dead men walking podcast on Twitter And to click on apologia over against the dividing line.

18:21

The next thing is is his quality So if it yeah, yeah But that what that was that was where you got into You know the quality of the programs in the in the in the unit which were which were addressing, you know

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When you think about it, that's that's what the you know, you know, he's not gonna have a mobile studio No, no

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In fact, his mobile studio is to hold his phone in front of his face walking around outside of buildings

18:46

Traveling places. So yeah. Yeah, that's that that's exactly what it's all about. So yeah, and so you as It must be frustrating because as I pointed out because I looked at the brackets and I thought you know

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This is gonna end up being dividing line versus apology again And it must be frustrating

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Because I win either way It doesn't matter who wins. I win either way

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And so, you know, I so I said, you know vote for apologia just simply because you know,

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Jeff's in a Sensitive time in his life right now when when when a man when it when a ninja starts wearing pink ties, you know

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Something's happening. Something's going on. We don't want to we don't want to be you know, causing any problems

19:39

I can't believe how many people on Twitter didn't get any of this. I Steve came at me and when

19:48

I explained is like, hey, sorry, I Rough day. I missed it. Sorry and And so we'll let that one slide.

19:56

But other people were like you really sounds like you're complaining you're being mean Could we have could we be humans just once in a while, please in the midst of all this trans

20:09

Insanity and everything else can we can we smile and laugh? Yes, sir Yep, that's so that's a it's a live

20:21

Jeff from from rich of so what's going on in the world should I? Should I do the other part about being called old?

20:30

I mean since I am the oldest Just sent me summers

20:36

Concession speech. Thank you. Excellent, Eric. I needed that. I'm excellent.

20:42

Yeah, this was I Yeah, I don't remember what the date was

20:49

I maybe it'll show when I click on it I can't click on it right now, obviously, but I do want to look at that But By the way, just before I forget this

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Jeff said I've already got one of these We've we've got like four or five of them. Yeah. Yeah, in fact,

21:05

I Can't think of one that I that I actually knew I was in yeah, we didn't win

21:10

Yeah, so I'm not sure what he's even so clearly clearly age is already affecting him.

21:16

I think so early. Oh, yeah But you know I mean when you came in today and you asked me if I'd watch that etc

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And then talked about how old I am compared to that. I my reaction was Jeff Get off my lawn.

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That's what I should have said that that should have been my only video response was Jeff get off my lawn

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Especially Because my lawn is rocks and if you walk across the rocks it messes everything up which is which

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I've done while loading the unit Anyways, okay so much for the un serious stuff

21:53

You know, there's gonna be people going. Why did you can't believe you're wasting my time? Okay, fine.

21:59

Y 'all go start your own Webcast and do that right right now. It's sixty one point four percent for the dividing line to thirty eight point six percent

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For apology, uh, so with 22 hours left, so like I said

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Whichever way you vote I'm gonna win There's no way around it that's that's how it works so anyhow, all right

22:23

Shifting gears here real quickly just in passing. Oh, I have to confess that the thought keeps crossing my mind as Just just as a plain old

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Christian person Just how much exposure is wise?

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to the Insane rebellion That mankind is engaged with in Western culture right now.

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I don't want to become one of those people It just becomes jaded to it that you just you just it's just part of life and you don't even give thought to it

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Any longer? I don't think that's I don't think that's good. I don't think that's proper But Just for the program started.

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I saw something where that Dylan Mulvaney guy that Matt Walsh had gone after and Matt Walsh was right.

23:25

He was right about everything. He said was right But that guy was on with Drew Barrymore and boy has she changed

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And You're just you're just looking at this caricature this

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How can women not recognize What a and I think most women do

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I'll be honest with you. I think the vast majority of women are actually internally anyways offended when men dressed as women who pretend to be women are

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Giving are being given awards for women of the year and all the rest is kind of stuff I think a lot of I think most women are offended when young men are allowed to compete as women and of course win right left and center in Athletic events and and that kind of stuff.

24:30

I think they are offended But today you're not allowed to say anything about it You're not allowed to talk about you're not allowed to say anything about it

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Because you will you will suffer because Today you must celebrate

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The utter violation of God's created order it is it is the new dogma of the

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West to celebrate sexual perversity and anything that Makes a mockery of God's created work.

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That's you've just got to celebrate it It's it's good stuff and it just it wears on you it it wears on your soul.

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It wears on On your outlook you have to you have to work harder to see the beauty in the world when you're constantly having to look around the ugliness and we

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We we can't lose The joy and the peace is promised to us by constant exposure to this kind of stuff, but it's all around us the president this interview comes out yesterday,

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I think and He seemed lucid

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He was on his meds for this one Which means he really is sold out to this perversity now

25:53

That's different Joe Biden than the Joe Biden of only 10 -15 years ago We know that but of course, we know

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Joe Biden has never been an honest man He is he has been a joke as far as integrity is concerned from the beginning and Why are people allowed to do that because voters will keep putting them in because they give them things that voters want it's the corruption comes from the people a

26:19

Corrupt people will have corrupt leaders. It doesn't come from the top down. It comes to the bottom up and So we are getting

26:27

Exactly what we deserve. I mean with this banking crisis going on. Isn't it great to have people that inspire confidence and control?

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No, the people in control are the people that are causing it They inspire zero confidence.

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I have I don't have the slightest bit of confidence These people will not continue to do things to make everything a whole lot worse because that's they want they want to tear it all down burnout down great reset

26:53

Digital money Enslave everybody that's that literally that is literally what they want

27:01

They want you to be completely under their control because they think they're the only people that can That are smart enough to do everything

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Tyranny is is not around Tyranny is not on the horizon It's in the house.

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It's in the Senate. It's in the White House. It's in the state houses. It's all around us Oh, yeah, and it doesn't matter whether we have a deer in our the

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D's the D's have this stuff stenciled on their brain But the ours are doing it because that's where they get their money.

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So They they lack a a worldview to stand up to this stuff the vast majority and there's

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Thankfully one or two still running around out there that have been consistent for a long time But they're in the very very very very small minority

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So I seriously am thinking about and I haven't come to conclusions or I'd share them with you, but How do you?

28:03

remain Aware and hence relevant Without simply burdening yourself into Spiritual depression.

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I bet you I'm not the only one thing in these things. Am I now I think we're all thinking about it I think we're all

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I'm just being honest that I Just don't know how you can be constantly exposed to this wanton rebellion without becoming jaded toward it and There are directions.

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I don't want to go. You know, I see you know, I don't want to become a person who is utterly unmarked by grace

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So, how do you how do you avoid that It's a challenge. It is a challenge and it is this is why you can't you can't be a

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Lone Ranger Christian You need to be in a church. You need to have iron sharpening iron and You have to you have to keep your eyes toward the future

29:07

Or things would go all cattywumpus. Okay now I Mentioned on the last dividing line, which was in The new

29:16

RV. I was up in Prescott Valley, Arizona didn't mention that the time but that's where it was a beautiful area and Girl I mentioned when

29:27

I pulled in I Called rich because rich is from Prescott not Prescott Valley, but Prescott back

29:32

Prescott Valley would have been founded I think it's in 1960 something. Yeah in That area.

29:41

Yeah Dewey Humboldt that whole area. It's it's beautiful area, but unfortunately It's just filling up with houses development that that wide open area just isn't there anymore and But anyways, that's where we were and I mentioned at that time that I had

30:01

Listened to at least I listened to the the opening statements and and rebuttals and into the cross -examination so most most of the debate between Gavin Ortlund and Trent Horne on solo scriptura.

30:17

Well, here's another solo scriptura debate. How many has that made? I Don't know

30:24

But from what they're saying This is pretty much going to be all they're going to be debating

30:30

There was a There was a follow -up video Let me see if I closed it.

30:37

Yeah, I did but I should be able pulled up quick enough There was a follow -up video

30:44

That was done it was sort of a Post debate debriefing solo scriptura debate debrief with Swan Sona Um the

30:58

Trent Horne did it's in on his the Council of Trent YouTube page and I listened to it's only 40 minutes less than 40 minutes long.

31:13

I Listened to that and I said man, there is so much in this that needs to be addressed Some of you who are fairly new to the program and I when

31:22

I say fairly new I mean 2015 something like that onward so large portion of the audience

31:32

From the 90s well into the 2000s we were very very much

31:46

Focused on well Mormonism's where we started Jehovah's Witnesses Roman Catholicism then 2006 branched out into Islam and Of course through all of that.

32:01

We've been dealing with textual critical issues Inerrancy inspiration transmission of text to scripture consistency of text scripture all these types of things and so The subject of Roman Catholicism is a subject that we have addressed on this program

32:21

And Though if we hopefully do get to do something where we have a truly searchable archive of The dividing line that would only go back to like 98

32:35

Is that about is that about where we our archives are right now as far as sermon audio about 98?

32:41

98 ish I think it's about the earliest Yeah, but but not in the sense of 98 98 for the dividing line.

32:51

Yeah, right. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah You will you will see that we have

33:03

Gone deeply into you know when There is one year

33:08

There was only about six months between when we did a debate with some genus and the debate with staples

33:18

On papal infallibility interestingly enough on the opposite opposite ends of them of the country,

33:23

Florida and, California And Got very different defenses of papal infallibility, by the way, which was itself interesting

33:35

But we've you know would go through seasons where there would be extensive discussions of Pope Honorius is letter to Sergius Where he's very friendly toward monothelitism and that results in for 400 years after Honorius When you ascended the papal throne you anathematized as a heretic

34:06

Pope Honorius of Rome and That raises all sorts of questions.

34:13

But what the main Things we've focused on over the years is it at the time?

34:20

Of Honorius being the bishop Rome you could not have known that for the next 400 years

34:25

He would be anathema anathematized as a heretic. You could not have known that So what good is papal infallibility if while you're alive it means nothing to you

34:36

It's only relevant in hindsight. And even then it's not really relevant when you think about it

34:47

Because the if you truly embrace the ultimate epistemological authority of the

34:58

Bishop of Rome and the teaching magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, however, you define that and In today's context with Francis that means a lot

35:08

Even if you accept that that changes over time Francis has demonstrated to us

35:15

That what is taught by the magisterium today? And I'm not just talking about words and formulations, but what they actually mean in connection with one another

35:28

What is what would be taught for example about the nature of Scripture in the papal biblical

35:34

Commission today is not What was taught a hundred years ago 150 years ago 200 years ago, it's not

35:46

So it changes which means you know, it just reminds me I remember even during John Paul the second

35:53

I had put up a contrast between unum sanctum,

36:00

I think and one of John Paul the second's encyclicals And it had been

36:07

Bob's a genus that had said But you don't get to interpret What either one of them means

36:14

The church interprets that so the church can look back at unum sanctum and what it meant back then who care?

36:21

In fact, you can't know Only the church can know so the church can just simply interpret anything in any fashion.

36:28

It so pleases and so There's there, you know, there's sola ecclesia.

36:35

There's there's the ultimate authority of the church and there's There's really no reason even to be debating this and so at the beginning of That video

36:46

I was gonna I'm not sure if do I still have it I don't think I have it queued up to that. No, I have it queued up to something else right at the beginning

36:54

Trent Horne talks about how he won't debate things that are too far from us like the immaculate conception

37:03

He says because it all comes back to ultimate authorities. Anyways, so I guess that's the only thing to debate

37:10

Of Rome Rome will not defend its own

37:17

Statements its own authoritative statements because Hey We have the ultimate authority to sell these things.

37:25

So that's the only subject that we have to debate We can who cares if you can demonstrate that the immaculate conception is an non apostolic a historical

37:38

Speculative fiction We've said it's true. And since we win the epistemological debate, it's true

37:45

We don't have to worry about history. Don't have to worry about Apostles. We don't have to worry about everything It's been claimed in the past.

37:52

I was I was like So so you won't debate things other than just this one subject and Even then you're not making a positive case

38:06

It's just a default case Well, it's not solo scriptura. So therefore it's us

38:11

That's what you're reduced to Wow Okay Fascinating a little different than think what

38:22

I saw in this discussion is a fundamental departure from Catholic answers circa 1980s 1990s now

38:33

Catholic answers circa 2020s is definitely going a different direction and is

38:40

Still doing some of the same things. It was really really funny and I will have to play this but I'll just mention in passing

38:47

Trent complained that well, you have to avoid the the Protestant trap of of being asked to Explain these difficult developments of doctrine over time in a debate.

39:00

That's a Protestant trap the Roman Catholic debating trap and trick

39:09

That they have used since the first debate I did with them in 1990 and they were using it before that When they were debating

39:18

Calvary Chapel pastors and stuff like that and have continued using it for decades is

39:26

When things aren't going well for you in your debate Throw the cannon out and expect the

39:33

Protestant to answer it in 60 seconds Talk about the pot calling the kettle black

39:38

They know they do it. They they train each other to do it and then complain if The Protestant goes.

39:46

Well, wait a minute. You're telling us you've got infallible authority But you've said this and the example that they were using was it is self -evident that the

39:56

Roman Catholic Magisterium has supported and Demanded the use of capital punishment in the past even for heresy and now

40:07

Pope Francis changes the Universal Catholic Catechism To be against capital punishment, okay

40:15

There has been they want to call that this is doctrinal development. It's called contradiction

40:22

Okay, it's it's a fallible source pretending to be infallible Um, but they won't even go there.

40:29

Oh, that's just a just just a development of doctrine Just slap some

40:35

Newman on it. That's not Slap some Newman on it. That's that's that's that's all you got to do.

40:41

It's like I do so anyway all of that Like I said, there is a lot in here that I think is fascinating and as I pointed out on the last program

40:53

I get the feeling That a lot of our regular listeners Sort of to tune out on certain subjects

41:03

And I've tried I've I make every effort I really do make every effort to Connect all the dots as best

41:15

I can When we're teaching on specific subjects so when dealing with when dealing with Islam Obviously you have to deal with sufficiency of scripture and transmission issues and canonization issues and You know all sorts of topics like that that have relevance to other

41:36

Groups that you might be more interested in maybe you don't feel like you're ever gonna run into a Muslim or something like that Which is

41:43

I guess in some places in the United States possible, but in reality you're going to one way or the other and It seems to me that over the years when we've dealt with Roman Catholicism A lot of people have sort of tuned out or they only listened with half an ear or they listen to the first half and said

42:00

Okay, that's a little bit too much detail for me. I'm gonna I'm gonna tune out now I don't want to offend my aunt

42:07

Harriet who's Roman Catholic or something along those lines. I don't know but hopefully what you're seeing is that many of the issues we are dealing with in Reformed them today are going back to Sola scriptura and What does that mean?

42:25

What is biblicism? What's reformed biblicism? What's the relationship of tradition and scripture?

42:31

we've been dealing with stuff for a long long time a Long long time and it's really self -evident to me that a lot of reformed

42:39

Baptists a lot of Presbyterians I've just simply dismissed Rome put that out to the side and that results in you being a

42:49

Protestant of taste rather than conviction and that's a dangerous place to be in dangerous place to be and So as we dig into this stuff

43:01

You're gonna see there's all sorts of relevance to the conversations we are having right now in How we define our faith and how we defend our faith and how we present our faith and what the foundation of our faith is

43:18

You can't understand. You know, I've got the New exposition of the London Baptist Confession of Faith at 1689 over there and There are so many both in Westminster and in London Baptist Where very plainly

43:35

Rome's? Perspectives are what's in the background? You are expected to know them

43:43

To know why what's being said is being said when when talking about the Lord's Supper and you're talking about not being a perpetuatory

43:49

Sacrifice and not a representation. There's a reason why that's there because that's what Rome is teaching and many of your people are former

43:57

Roman Catholics, so You have to have that as a background.

44:03

So anyway I can I can maximize this screen here

44:10

Here is a section that I I even made notes when

44:15

I first listened to it that we needed to cover this and So I wanted to I want to talk to it and I talked a little bit about on the last program

44:23

I'm not just gonna repeat myself. We're gonna go a little bit more in -depth here, but here is Well on the last program

44:30

I just summarized what they were saying let's listen to what Trenthorne says here and Think about it.

44:38

Okay. Here we go So I think that's the key point to to get at the argument that he's saying

44:44

I guess to I guess I have just two other things and then your thoughts would be great The other main argument he made a lot was the

44:52

Matthew 15 and the Corban rule, yeah, which is a very common Protestant argument to say look

44:58

Jesus compared tradition to scripture. We should do the same He only held scripture as the infallible rule of faith

45:05

And I wasn't sure how this argument was gonna go because I've never used it before But my reply was that Jesus is not talking about scripture.

45:11

Mm -hmm. Okay. All right. Jesus is not talking about Scripture Let's deal with that one first before let's let's keep the let's keep the issues because there's a textual issue.

45:23

I want to get to So let's keep these these separate from each other so that we don't have any extra

45:34

Confusion here the Corban rule discussion is found two different places

45:43

It's found in Mark 7 and in Matthew chapter 15 and What's interesting is

45:55

I I could be wrong, but my recollection is that Gavin focused on Mark and Here Trent focuses on Matthew.

46:10

We're gonna see what the reason is In a moment, and I think you'll find it to be intriguing

46:17

I should still have Matthew here. Yeah here's the Matthew 15 and Here's Here's the the issue

46:28

Matthew 15 3 He answered and said to them. Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

46:36

for God said and I've got the LSB here and the LSB continues the

46:41

NASB use of all caps for What you see over here in the Greek is in Italics which are

46:50

Old Testament citations, which I think is a very good thing to do Honor your father and mother and he who speaks evil of father and mother is to be put to death

46:59

So what do you have here? you have paratisan who moan your

47:08

Tradition for the sake of diya and Then why do yourselves transgress the commandment of God and Tulane to say you now?

47:21

again, keep something in mind for Greek speaking

47:27

Jews the Greek Septuagint is their copy of the scriptures and 119

47:34

Psalm already exists And when you go to the 119 Psalm you will find the author racking for him the

47:44

Hebrew language and hence the translators Trying to follow that for all the different words for commandments and word and testimony and all this language

47:57

Poetic language to talk about God's revelation

48:03

Primarily to the people of Israel at that point in time, but it's God's Commandments God's law God's Word and The the author of the 119

48:16

Psalm would have only had a portion of what we have would have had the Pentateuch but it was a written reality and you can see the

48:30

Exalted nature of this scripture Which is still being written, I mean the 119

48:35

Psalm is a part of that so commandment of God you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake your tradition where this commandment found for Ha Gar Theos I pen for God said

48:58

Not for Moses wrote or as Critical see keep something in mind here folks the critical scholarship that it seems

49:09

Trent is becoming somewhat enamored with and Certainly the critical scholarship that marks the papal biblical

49:16

Commission Do not believe that Moses wrote those words They don't believe that that's the vast majority of Roman Catholic scholarship and Protestant scholarship because Protestants just Really broad term, isn't it?

49:36

I? Mean you can find anything under either banner on this issue either banner

49:45

Here's here's again the consistency of Jesus's view of Scripture for God said and then you quote from Scripture and these books had already been laid up in the temple 200 years before this happened.

50:02

They already considered to have made the hands dirty Unclean not dirty unclean that means they were holy

50:11

These are the scriptures that are that are in the box next to Moses's seat in the in the synagogue

50:17

When Jesus has handed the scroll of Isaiah, it comes from that box the people he's speaking to know what he's talking about He's quoting from Scripture For God said on your father and mother and you speaks evil of father mother is to be put to death

50:35

But you say whoever says this to his father and mother, whatever you might benefit from me is given to God that is

50:41

Corban That's where you're gonna see that in Mark. He need not honor his father by this you invalidated ton log on tooth a you the

50:53

Word of God Diatane paratus in whom oh for the sake of your tradition So what is ton log on tooth a you

51:03

What has Jesus just quoted from the scriptures

51:09

The scriptures the Word of God, that's what it says, right?

51:15

So it doesn't take a rocket scientist. It just takes a consistent exegete to go what you have here is

51:26

A reference to what had already been written down 1 ,400 years earlier

51:34

Had been laid up in the temple as sacred scripture was known to everyone

51:41

Jesus is talking to as Scripture the very law of God and He's saying you are

51:52

Invalidating you're setting aside The Word of God for the sake of your tradition.

51:58

That was a tradition Which by the way, as we've mentioned over and over again, it's in tractate of both look it up in the

52:04

Mishnah It's all available online these days. Well, it's a lot easier to do that today Back in my day.

52:10

I was debating these things of the Catholic answers. I had to go by the Mishnah It's still what?

52:17

Oh, we're just old. Yeah. Yeah, that's why you need to vote for apology. We're just old Um Tractate of both the

52:26

Korban rule it comes down from Moses outside of Scripture in the oral tradition it is very much the same process that is claimed for the oral traditions of Rome and Jesus says

52:43

You set aside The Word of God for the sake of your commandment sake of your tradition sake of your traditions now

52:54

Is this not the Word of God is that not what this is about?

53:00

Well, we just demonstrated that it is but let's This is this is you'll see especially why

53:07

I caught this And why I want to talk about this because this is sort of something we do on this program fairly regularly

53:15

Let's let's continue on he's not and we have no reason either. He's not or we have no reason to believe he is

53:20

Because the phrase Word of God is Almost or possibly always in the in the

53:27

Bible. It's never used to describe just a written text It's used to describe prophetic utterances apostolic preaching

53:35

So what I would say here what Jesus is saying is that your traditions violate what

53:40

God told Moses? That it's not about Hey your traditions violate the written

53:46

Word of God. It's okay Now just think with the music. How do they know what

53:52

God told Moses? What did Jesus quote from? every single one of the Jews he's talking to had been in synagogue the preceding

54:01

Saturday and Right up there next to the seat of Moses and In Japan the synagogue you're in Very fancy containers less fancy containers are dependent on where you were.

54:17

There were the scrolls and The scrolls had been opened and The words of Moses had been read from what?

54:28

from the scrolls from the scripture not from an oral tradition that could be evolving and changing over time but from the scriptures and Jesus called this the

54:45

Word of God You invalidate the Word of God for the sake of your traditions, there's the

54:53

Standard you test anything. It's called tradition by the Word of God, which is not just some

55:01

Oral thing. It's something that is known because it's in Scriptural form

55:06

God told Moses this. Yeah, that's what should really matter in how you interpret things Hmm, and that's why

55:12

I said in the debate Especially in Matthew if you're pinning it on what Matt did you catch that? I Want you to catch this because because this can go by quick Especially in Matthew, I wonder why he was going to Matthew because my recollection was my recollection clearly was that he that Gavin had focused on Mark sounds like Like I go to Matthew we're all about to find out together

55:41

He says where Jesus says you leave void the Word of God The manuscripts are divided on that.

55:47

Yeah, because there's manuscripts where it says the entol a to Theo The commandment of God or the no man, though.

55:55

The law of God is what you contradict not just like the scriptures And I and I think he was just like no, of course, he's talking about scripture like oh

56:05

Oh There's a there's a textual variant Hmm.

56:10

Okay. Well if you were looking at accordance here when it was up Here in Matthew chapter 15 right there.

56:23

There is a textual variant and you have Ton log on to say you the

56:31

Word of God and ton log on there's a variant the variants up in the right -hand corner I'm sorry. It's a small but you really can't see it

56:38

You have attain and Tulane the commandment and You also

56:44

I also have ton naman so the law of God is

56:51

The original and then you'll notice the original reading of Sinaiticus that's what the asterix is and then to be which means there's been a there's been a number of Corrections at that point as to which

57:05

Because down below you see text for Sinaiticus is to a so you you have naman and log on both in Sinaiticus depending on which corrector you're you're looking at which hand of the corrector

57:19

The text is Sinaiticus Vaticanus D theta 579

57:26

Clearly it's it's a foundation of the Latin which should say something for Roman Catholics. We'll have to do a show pretty soon on Sixtus's infallible

57:36

Vulgate the defense of Latin as the final authority for years and years and years which Rome of course has changed and Abandoned it's the origination of all the

57:45

Syriac translations Coptic it's found in Irenaeus Eusebius so on and so forth

57:53

But you do have for example family 13 has ton naman Enteley seems to be a primarily

58:00

Byzantine Readings you've got the majority text some of the Latins the

58:06

Harkley and Syriac family one So you do have that's under Enteley Naman is just Sinaiticus family 13 and a few others

58:16

Enteley is the Byzantine one. So anyway So you have a variant now, first of all

58:26

One of the things that's surprising to me There's nothing new about For example

58:36

Horn was using The book I didn't bring it in with me But looking at what

58:44

Theo Neustaus means And he just throws out there this idea that well, it means life -giving and again as I pointed out once you look at the source

58:56

The Interpretation of the lexical data is clearly impacted by the fact that the author does not believe that Paul wrote these words that second

59:08

Timothy is a forgery and Hence cannot be connected to the rest of Pauline vocabulary and Historically It's very important for us to realize that much of what for example

59:29

Turretin Owen the men and hit that that time period

59:36

Much of what they are emphasizing when they are Defending the Greek originals and things like that was against the

59:42

Jesuits. It was against the counter -reformation The Jesuit counter -reformation attacked the validity of the scriptures and They did so purposefully

59:55

They did so to emphasize the absolute necessity of The church over the scriptures so they attacked

01:00:06

The perspicuity and even being able to now, of course initially they they attacked the

01:00:12

Greek on The basis of supremacy of the Latin which they don't do any longer That needs to be pointed out but What was the long -term result?

01:00:25

within Roman Catholicism of the Jesuit approach Well, look at the

01:00:31

Jesuits when you look at the original Jesuits, you know Ignatius Loyola if The church shall proclaim something to be black which to our eyes appears to be white

01:00:44

We must believe it to be black Okay, the church is the final authority

01:00:51

Absolute conservatives who are the flaming liberals today? Who are the flaming leftists the

01:00:58

Jesuits? You can't play with poison without it eventually impacting you and So the

01:01:10

The attacks that the Jesuits made on scripture long ago eventually have led us to the place where we are now where you look at Roman Catholic academia and To find a conservative is to find a dinosaur.

01:01:34

It's it I can't help but There's a modern example of this outside of this particular Context that's what's happening in Mormonism When Mormonism tried to mainstream and they try they sent their young and and and brilliant out into the world to get

01:01:49

PhDs who come back to BYU they brought their skepticism with them and Joseph Smith cannot survive skepticism the

01:01:58

Book of Mormon Doctrine Covenants for a price can not survive historical criticism on any level at all and so look what's happening and The Jesuits do this as their mechanism of apologetics and highly effective in some places but it had the unforeseen

01:02:23

Impact of Eventually undercutting The very foundations of authority within their own system.

01:02:34

So it's fascinating to me to see Catholic answers going this direction and Saying hey, let's use this stuff out there and say you can't really know these things

01:02:45

And then you could just have to default back to the authority of the church it it doesn't end up working They haven't they haven't learned their historical lesson from the

01:02:53

Jesuits But there's more to it There's more to it and we'll wrap up with this.

01:03:01

I know it's after after a time, but it's like There's nobody banging on my door to tell me to stop though I do have to pick up the white from the airport.

01:03:10

Eventually, um, I Remember, I I kept going.

01:03:17

Well, okay. Yeah, there's a variant Matthew 15 6 Word of God, okay but you go to mark 7 and you scroll down here and Jesus why do you know?

01:03:35

Why do your disciples not walk according the tradition of the elders but eat their bread with defiled hands? He said to them rightly did

01:03:41

Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites as it is written as people are asking me their lips Their heart is far from me in vain.

01:03:47

Do they worship me teaching the doctrines commandments of men? So again, we have quotation of Scripture well -recognized scripture.

01:03:54

Remember that's the scroll of Isaiah that's handed to Jesus so leaving

01:04:01

Go down here. So verse 8 is It's literally abandoning

01:04:08

Abandoning the command the commandment of God so until ain to say you

01:04:18

You hold to the traditions of men. So there you have your your your contrast and There's no variant there.

01:04:27

There is a gar, but that's not gonna change the meaning of the phrase He goes on to say and he was also saying them you are good at setting aside

01:04:37

The commandment of men the command of God and to lay again. No, no variance in order that you might keep your traditions

01:04:48

For a Moses said and now here we have Now this is another one of those situations where very often when

01:04:54

Mark and Matthew give the same Story mark goes into more detail than Matthew does now

01:04:59

Matthew gives all the teachings that of Jesus that Mark doesn't but that's that's why For Moses said honor your father and your mother and he who speaks of evil of father and mother is to be put to death

01:05:08

That's the exact those the exact same quotations from Matthew chapter 15

01:05:14

But you say if a man says to his father his mother whatever you might benefit from me is Corban that is given to God You know, you no longer leave him to do anything for his father or his mother

01:05:25

Thus here's verse 13 thus Invalidating ton log on tooth a you

01:05:35

Invalidating the Word of God by your tradition Which you have handed down.

01:05:41

This is a very technical term for which you have tradition or I did to me

01:05:48

But notice something Invalidating ton log on to say you

01:05:56

Hmm the Nessie Allen doesn't list any variance at verse 13

01:06:04

It's just the Word of God Huh? So you have in the synoptics the same event the same story and In Matthew you have a variant but in Mark you don't

01:06:29

Which is why Trent Horne left Mark and went to Matthew To so The doubt about what's being said because you can't do that in Mark because there's no variant

01:06:46

Hmm and Wouldn't mark 713 cast some light on the proper variant in Matthew?

01:06:58

which Which is the text reading as it is is ton log on But wouldn't that cast some light upon that as well?

01:07:08

it seems that Jesus did refer to the Word of God and That he did say that that Word of God, which is plainly exegetically in the context the written scriptures he just quoted from the

01:07:27

Law of Moses and said you

01:07:33

Invalidate the Word of God by your tradition The only way to therefore recognize that tradition so we don't

01:07:44

Invalidate the Word of God is to test anything that is called tradition

01:07:50

By what is objectively already in our possession Which is called the scriptures the

01:07:59

Word of God So that's why he had to go From Matthew from Mark to Matthew It's the only way to sow the doubt based upon a textual variant

01:08:15

There you go, I wondered at the time when I was listening, but I I wasn't in a situation where I could

01:08:23

Stop and do stuff and things like that so There's much more much much more in that To be to be considered because I really really think that we are getting a

01:08:40

We're getting an insight, I think that I think means everything

01:08:49

If what we're what we're hearing is we're not going to debate Our positive claims we're not gonna do that we've got one debate we'll do and And We will only debate issues relating to Sola scriptura sounds like maybe the canon in some sense, but again, it's the same same thing

01:09:12

You know when we've debated the Apocrypha in the past You'll remember

01:09:22

Gary Machuda When I pointed out an error in an apocryphal work

01:09:31

Just a historical blunder He was like, well, that's how atheists argue.

01:09:37

One of the things we're gonna deal with because it was in this video is if you dare point out the many many contradictions in the

01:09:48

Traditions that have been that have come down to us over the past somehow that means you're arguing like an atheist

01:09:56

I think that is one of the most foolish Epistemologically confused you've really got to really want to believe this stuff to accept this kind of argumentation

01:10:05

I've ever it's one of the worst arguments Catholic answers has ever put out there. I am stunned. I Am really stunned at how often

01:10:13

I'm hearing it. It is Embarrassing it is embarrassing for Catholic answers to be even contemplating

01:10:24

We won't defend anything we believe because we're the ultimate authority and you can't interpret any of this stuff

01:10:29

Anyways, and you don't want to sound like an atheist. Do you really that's that's supposed to be a weighty argument

01:10:35

Well, we will definitely spend some time Taking that one apart. Let me just refresh it a page here real quick Not sure why it's taking forever to refresh.

01:10:48

Oh Something went wrong. Oh Are we having any problems with the yeah,

01:11:01

I can't I Can't okay. It came back Okay, we had we had a hiccup.

01:11:08

I had a hiccup. You can even have a hiccup when you're sitting in the studio Dividing on at sixty one point one and apology at thirty eight point nine

01:11:19

So it's it's tightening up a little bit. It's tightening up a little bit. I I Told Jeff earlier.

01:11:30

I said only reason you're catching up is you're getting the pink tie vote So yeah, there you go

01:11:37

Anyways, so like I said much more from that video in the morning in the morning in the future.

01:11:43

I think because These are important issues These are vitally important issues

01:11:50

And let me do one more thing before rich starts the music I saw you reaching up there

01:11:56

I always know when you're reaching for for cutting everything. Where are we? Okay. Are we still okay? No Okay.

01:12:07

All right. All right. We're this will be posted. Eventually. It may not be live right now. Um, I posted

01:12:14

I preached Sunday night at Apologia and I preached on the biblical testimony to the beautiful relationship of Father Son and Spirit that's given to us in Scripture and I did so in contrast

01:12:30

To what happens when you run Biblical revelation

01:12:36

Through man's philosophical meat shredder. There is no philosophical system known to man.

01:12:45

That is big enough to deal with the glory of the triune God and when you insist upon Utilizing those parameters

01:12:59

So that you become uncomfortable With the literal interaction between the divine persons

01:13:09

When you become uncomfortable with the Son Considering the equality has with God the

01:13:16

Father Which is not something that the Father does the Father doesn't consider the equality has with himself

01:13:23

And if he considers the equality has with the Son, that's a different thing than equate than considering The equality that the

01:13:30

Son has with the Father it almost seems to me that once you grab hold of a

01:13:38

Thomistic Simplicity concept not a not a biblical simplicity not what you can defend biblically but one that is meant to keep

01:13:47

Aristotle happy and You start going this direction you end up with the

01:14:00

Modalistic You know traces of the modes of the subsistence is stuff of philosophical

01:14:11

Speculation and philosophical theology and You rob the people of God No one has ever written and oh, please someone's gonna run off and get

01:14:22

AI to do this I can just I can see it now But in the past no one has ever written a hymn

01:14:30

Praising The Traces of modal subsistence in the revelation of Ad -extra activities of God No one's ever done that but we've written lots of them in praise of Father Son and Holy Spirit and of Blessed be the

01:14:56

God and Father for Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in the heavenly places of spiritual blessings and being in Christ and all things summed up in him and the

01:15:07

Holy Spirit who intercedes for us with groanings that cannot be We've all we sing praises to that all the time but not to the philosophical speculations

01:15:21

And there's a reason for that there's a reason for that and so If you go to Apologia Apologia's YouTube page

01:15:31

Yeah, I think you have to click on live because it was live -streamed but catch the sermon and see what

01:15:39

I had to say and maybe why I had to say it and That was for us, but hopefully it'll be helpful to other people as well.