September 2, 2022 Show with Anthony Forsyth on “Caesar & the Church: A Biblical Study of Government & the Church”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this second day of September 2022.

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Before I introduce to you my guest today, a first -time guest that I'm really excited to interview,

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I have another exciting update and announcement. Many of you heard me announce, both on this show and in social media, that we finally have a confirmation from two debaters that are going to be debating here in South Central Pennsylvania for the next edition of the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio debate series. We have both confirmations from Dr.

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James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and Dr. Peter Van Cleek, and they are going to be debating on a theme that involves confessional bibliology, which is also known as, especially amongst laymen and those outside of the circles of Reformed Baptists, it's more readily recognizable as Textus Receptus Only -ism.

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These two men are going to be debating Dr. White opposing the

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Textus Receptus Only position, and Dr. Van Cleek affirming it under the name of confessional bibliology.

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And right now, the only thing that is holding up further publicity, flyers, commercials, etc.,

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is that, as happens from time to time with these debates, the debaters cannot fully agree on how to word the debate thesis.

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So we hope to give you an update very soon as to exactly how this debate will be worded as far as the debate question or thesis is concerned.

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It's going to be held Saturday, September 24th, starting at 4 p .m.

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at Church of the Living Christ in Loysville, Pennsylvania, which is in Perry County, Pennsylvania, which is the same location

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I will be having my next Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Free Pastor's Luncheon, that same week, featuring

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Dr. James R. White as the keynote speaker. If you haven't already registered for that free luncheon, if you are a man in ministry leadership, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. And when you register, please include the name and location of your church.

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And it's a free event. Everything is free, the meal, the admission, and everyone attending is receiving a heavy sack or perhaps even two heavy sacks of free, brand -new books donated by the publisher, as they have been doing every year and now every two years, twice a year,

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I should say. They started out annually, now they're bi -annually, happening twice a year.

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But every time we have these events, all the men in attendance leave with heavy sacks of brand -new books

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I have selected from publishers which they've donated. And that includes, and this may be news to my guest,

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Anthony Forsyth, this includes the book that he has written that we are discussing today.

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Cress Biblical Resources has been generous enough to donate. Caesar and the

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Church, a biblical study of government and the church to all the men in attendance at my

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon. So I'm so thrilled about that. And so please, if you haven't registered yet, send in your email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Everything is free of charge. And now

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I would like to formally introduce my guest. His name is Anthony Forsyth, and he is pastor of Calvary Baptist Church of Burbank, California.

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And I haven't heard that city mentioned since the old days of Johnny Carson, since his studios were located in Burbank, California, and were the, was the subject,

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Burbank, that is, was the subject of many jokes from his stand -up monologues, usually involving how many senior citizens' homes there were around there.

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But we are going to be discussing the aforementioned book, Caesar and the Church, a biblical study of government and the church.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Anthony Forsyth.

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Hi, pleased to be here, Chris. And I don't know, were you aware that Cress, they actually just gave me the good news,

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I believe it was yesterday, that they are donating Caesar and the

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Church, a biblical study of government and the church, to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon.

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Did you just learn that now? No, no, I just discovered that this second as you said it. So that's wonderful news.

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I should probably repay the favor to Cress for me not knowing in advance by telling you what they don't know yet, which is that as of a day or two ago, we just got the

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Spanish translation finished. Oh, praise God. Yeah, so that will be available to Spanish speakers.

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Well, praise God, I am so thrilled about that. And I cannot wait to see the look on the pastors' faces when they receive that.

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And I also want to thank personally Rick Cress for being so generous to donate these.

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First of all, since there may be a number of our listeners, since you have not been on this program before, who are unfamiliar with you and the church where you serve as an undershepherd, why don't you tell us about this fine congregation that you pastor?

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Well, I became pastor at Calvary Baptist Church at Burbank about six and a half years ago now, around about that time, and we've been serving here.

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We took over a very small Baptist church that had been without a pastor for a while.

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And as time has gone by, things have changed. Most of the original people who were with us when

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I arrived are no longer with us. And right now, particularly post -COVID, we'll maybe talk about that more later, but it very much has a feel to it of a church plant.

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It's lots of people very excited to be kind of getting involved in a smaller church and excited for what the

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Lord might do. So when I took over, it was originally a GARBC church, and we're looking over the next couple of months.

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We're hopefully shifting over to IFCA. Praise God. And if anybody wants to find out more about Calvary Baptist Church of Burbank, California, you can go to their website, calvarybaptistburbank, and that's spelled

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B -U -R -B -A -N -K .org, calvarybaptistburbank .org. Were you aware?

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I don't know how long you've been living here in the States, nor do I know if Johnny Carson was known at all in the

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U .K. Were you aware of the jabs and jokes by Mr. Carson? No.

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In fact, when we first came to this church to, I mean, funnily enough, when

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I first came to this church, for me, my plan was it was only going to be a sort of one -off speaking visit because I had another church that wanted me as their pastor, and I was planning on going there, and this was sort of my plan

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B, as it were. And I didn't even know where Burbank was. I hadn't even heard of it, really.

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I think I'd heard of it, and I knew it was California, but I couldn't have pointed it out on a map or anything like that.

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So, yeah, it was all a bit strange and new to me. But we've been in California for a couple of years before.

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We came out in 2013, so it's been almost nine years. And although I hopefully haven't lost the accent, we do have a green card now.

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So you're stuck with us for a while longer. Now, where in England are you from?

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I was raised in an area of a couple of counties,

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Hertfordshire and Essex, but in more recent years, I was in Kent, which is the southeast.

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Yes, I have two very dear friends who are now in heaven, Barbara and Nigel Stone, and they lived in the

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States far longer, far more decades than they lived in England.

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And they actually made it a point to preserve their British accents.

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I met Nigel's sister, and she lived in England as long as he did, and you could not detect a trace of an

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English accent. But Nigel perfectly preserved it and was an extremely humorous man, a dear friend, and I miss him greatly.

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In fact, the Lord used him greatly to lead me to the doctrines of sovereign grace when

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I was a brand -new Christian in a Reformed Baptist church where I was baptized, but still very hesitant and skeptical about the doctrines of Reformed theology.

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And Nigel approached me and with his deep British accent said to me, pardon me, but I've heard that you have difficulties understanding

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Calvinism. I think this may be of help. And he handed me George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley on election, and the rest is history.

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But we have a tradition here, Anthony, on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, whenever we interview a first -time guest, we have that guest provide for us a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised, and also the kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

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Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. So why don't you give us your story?

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Of course, yes. So I was raised in a home where we occasionally went to church.

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My mother would occasionally take us to church purely because my grandfather went to church.

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I'm not sure how nominal that faith was. As I think in later years it became quite genuine.

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But I kind of went to a very, you know, we went to a very traditional English village church maybe sort of a few times in the course of a year when

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I was younger. And then at the age of nine I went to a British boarding school, which

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I think is probably quite alien to most of your listeners. But if they've ever seen Harry Potter, it's a lot like that really but without the magic.

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It sort of houses with names of former students or teachers.

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And I was there from the age of nine, which was quite a trying thing. But at about 12

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I first came to faith. And it was through the faithful ministry of a teacher at the school by the name of Bob McKean.

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And Bobber, as we used to call him, he was, I mean, this was in the 1980s.

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And I don't think he'd ever kind of left the 1950s, quite honestly. He was certainly not the trendy teacher at school.

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But his testimony of faith to the kids in assemblies through different Christian groups was very, very consistent.

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And I did think about these things at that young age quite a lot.

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And then I came at, like I said, about the age of maybe 11 or 12.

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I think I just turned 12. I came to the point where we had a class at school which was just a reading class.

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And you were supposed to sit still and quiet and to read a book that was approved for you to read.

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And at that age, and I think my wife might think even probably at this age, I'm not very good at sitting still and being quiet.

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So I got myself quite a lot of detentions. And the only way that you could not attend the reading class was that was the same time that the

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Christian group called Christian Way met. And so I kind of thought about going.

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I was kind of a little bit interested. But once I chalked up two or three detentions from reading class, it was like, okay,

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I'm going to go to the Christian group. And just gradually over a period of time, I can remember getting to the point where I realized, you know,

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I think I believe this stuff, you know. And, you know, this is 1984,

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I think. So, you know, it was a time when the sharing of the gospel,

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I mean, there was no sort of minor key music and altar calls. There was no seeker -friendly approach.

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You know, I was just presented with the realities of my sin and the need for a

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Savior. Come down from sitting upon the throne of my life and hand it over to him.

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I mean, it really was that simple and basic. And at 12 years old, I understood. And Bob McKinney prayed with me.

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And, you know, I don't remember all that much of it. But I have a very vivid memory of walking out of the building where we met and walking across one of the greens of grass at the school.

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And as I was walking away thinking, everything's going to be different. And I don't think

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I fully understood how true that was. But, yeah, so that was me coming to faith.

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God just opening my eyes and drawing me gradually and gently. There was no dramatic moment so much as just a general creeping realization as my eyes were opened.

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And then probably about another eight years later, I discovered expository preaching.

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And honestly, that really felt like being born again again. In the first eight years of my faith,

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I went to progressively ever more charismatic churches. By the end of it,

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I was very much involved in what would today be called the New Apostolic Reformed Movement, though it didn't have that name back then.

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And then a friend of mine got me into listening to some teaching tapes from an expository teacher by the name of Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a

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Messianic Jew. And it was probably about a year of listening to him that I started to realize that what

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I was listening to by myself and what I was hearing at church and what I had been involved in previously just did not add up.

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Another year, maybe after that, before I was fully away from that background.

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But expository preaching has been very much a part of my life ever since then for the last 30 years.

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Now, how and when did God make it clear to you that he was placing a call on your life to enter into pastoral ministry?

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Well, I think that even when I was much, much younger, I went away to a couple of retreats as a young teenager, maybe like 15 years of age, something like that.

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And even at those groups, some of the leaders were kind of suggesting that if I would ever sort of be a little bit more controlled, that maybe

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God would have a... there would be some gifting in there somewhere. And then when

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I was involved in the Charismatic Church, they were sort of kind of raising me up for leadership, as it were, there in the early stages of that.

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And I'd done some courses and training with various churches of that type.

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But I think for me that the realization of what I was born to do came when

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I began listening to Dr. Fruchtenbaum teach through scripture. And like I said, it was the first time

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I'd ever come across expository teaching. And Arnold has a very deadpan way of teaching.

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He's not very dramatic. He's got an accent that's sort of a mixture of Yiddish and Russian and New York and Lord knows what else.

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And he was very hard for me as a young man in Britain to understand. So a one -hour teaching take took about three hours while I kind of play, rewind, play, pause, rewind, play, pause, rewind, trying to take notes down.

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And as he was going through it, I was absolutely just blown away by, this guy's just teaching the

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Bible. But I realized that all of my peers, all the people that I went to,

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I went to a local vineyard church at the time, and all the friends that I had from college that went there with me, that most of these guys would never listen to this.

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They'd never get past the accent. They'd never get past the style or the delivery. And they'd never get these gems.

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And I just had this incredible urge from very, very early on that this is what

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I need to do. I need to take this information and communicate it to my peers in ways that they would understand.

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I think initially I was thinking more about writing. The irony is it's taken 30 years to actually get any writing done.

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But from that moment onwards, I knew that that was what I was here to do. I was here to take the

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Bible and communicate it to other people in a way that is simple, easy to understand, and applicable.

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And as the years have gone by, I've become very determined that in making it accessible and simple to understand, that that doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to just be pure milk, that you can present solid food, that you can have meat, you can have good, in -depth teaching, and it can be presented in a way that is acceptable, understandable, and manageable.

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And we don't need to shy away from heavy teaching in that regard. So that's really, that was the turning point.

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By the way, to clarify my memory, many years ago

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I thought, and I could be thinking of a different person that my friend

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Richie Saxon was referring to, but I have a friend, Richie Saxon, now retired from pastoral ministry, but he was a pastor in a messianic church on Long Island, New York, called

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Beth Yeshua House of Jesus in West Savell, Long Island, no longer there. And Richie and I are still friends to this day, but this was, we initiated our friendship back in the 80s, and Arnold Fruchtenbaum was a great hero and mentor to Richie, and I thought that I heard him say that Arnold was, although in the messianic movement in some senses, he was a firm believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, also nicknamed

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Calvinism. Is that true? As I understand it, I think Arnold is a classic sort of four -pointer.

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So he certainly would be a believer in sovereign election, but I know that he's very definitively unlimited atonement.

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I hope I'm not misrepresenting him, but I'm pretty sure that that is the approach that he takes. And now

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I'm assuming when you say four -pointer, you're thinking of authentic Amarillianism and not... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Because there are, as you probably know, myriads of evangelicals who call themselves four -point

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Calvinists, and when they explain to you what they mean by that, they redefine every one of those points.

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Yeah, no, no. I think Arnold is faithfully there, but I think that, as you know, that when you have people who are four -pointers and genuinely do believe those points, that there is a spectrum even there where, you know, some are more 4 .1

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or some are more 4 .8 or 4 .9, and I think Arnold's very much towards the 4 .0,

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4 .1 end of that spectrum, as I understand it. He wrote a book called Man's Will, God's Will, where he expounds his views on that, but I haven't seen it,

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I haven't read it for a few years yet. I don't recall it. Yes, and I think Arnold was also involved in Melville, Long Island, called the

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Little White Church in the Wildwood, and I could be corrected on that as well, and we'll have to find out from Richie if that was indeed the case.

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Very sadly, a current Messianic congregation in that building that was there for decades, even before I was a

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Christian, they changed the sign out in front of that building, and that deeply saddened me, because they had for decades a huge sign, white sign with bright blue letters,

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Jesus Saves, and it so encouraged me when I became a Christian that the millions of drivers who were on the very busy road of Route 110 in Suffolk County, Long Island, every day were seeing that to and from work and wherever else they were going, and they took down that sign and put up a sign that gave the appearance that this was a non -Christian synagogue.

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And I'm not saying that they say that on the sign, but it just mentions the name of the synagogue with the

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Hebrew wording, and there's nothing about Jesus, nothing about Jesus Saves, just really sad, really sad.

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And I hope I don't get hate mail from that congregation. But we're going to be going through our first break, and then when we return, we're going to be sinking our teeth into this very serious and important subject that we, as not only

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Christians, but the world faces, the authority of government. But of course, since your book is primarily directed to Christians, it is more of an important subject for we who are in the body of Christ.

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Caesar and the Church, A Biblical Study of Government and the Church, we're going to be sinking our teeth into that with our discussion, or during our discussion with Anthony Forsyth of Calvary Baptist Church of Burbank, California, after we return from our first break.

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And if you have a question, please send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

25:28

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend

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Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.

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for the G3 Ministries regional conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held

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Thursday, September 15th, through Saturday, September 17th. And I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the

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Just Thinking podcast. To register, visit g3min .org, that's g3min .org,

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and click on Events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.

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So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.

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for the G3 Ministries regional conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org,

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that's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

27:00

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

27:09

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

27:38

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

27:57

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

28:13

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. Have you noticed the gap that exists between the

28:25

Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study? So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study

28:35

God's Word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

28:41

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the

28:46

Word of God and is built upon sound doctrine, much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the

28:54

Bible. Hi there, my name is Jordan Too and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

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Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

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Our quarterly curriculum is titled The Baptist Expositor, and for good reason, we are

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Baptist and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the

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Word of God, I invite you to go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

29:25

May God bless you. Satan is the father of lies and spin, and the mother of those lies is a government who has rejected

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God. We have especially been lied to these last two years, and the COVID panic has been one of the central mechanisms that our government has used to lie to us and grab more power.

29:48

Because Christians have not been reading their Bibles, we are susceptible to lies and are weak in our ability to fight these lies.

29:55

God has given us his Word to fight Satan and his lies, and we need to recover all of God's Word, its serrated edge and all.

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Mark your calendars for October 6th through 8th as we fight, laugh, and feast to the glory of God in Knoxville, Tennessee.

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You'll be enlightened, edified, encouraged, and challenged by ten speakers on the theme

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Lies, Propaganda, Storytelling, and the Serrated Edge, covering various topics that address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Speakers include Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho, and the whole gang at the

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Cross Politics Show and Podcast. For details, visit flfnetwork .com.

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That's F for fight, L for laugh, F for feast, network .com.

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See you there October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee. or switching to the

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NASB. This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Glendale, Texas, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Andrew Rapport, the Founder and Executive Director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Mark Romaldi, Pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Christopher Cookston, Pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, Pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Hi, this is

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John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

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Iron Sharpen's Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

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Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

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And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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today we are now back with our guest today Anthony Forsyth and I'm excited that we are addressing such a vital topic that has really consumed the minds of most of us in the church and this is really capsulized in his book

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Caesar and the Church A Biblical Study of Government and the Church if you have a question send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

40:55

and give us your first name, city and state and country of residence first of all other than the fact that we all witnessed how governments not only in states individually but in the

41:12

United States as a whole and even overseas everywhere as far as I know we witnessed the mishandling of what was being described as a pandemic and we witnessed governments flexing their muscles and individuals in governments flexing their muscles and what at first looked like understandable restrictions in the midst of an illness that involved great mystery soon became real evidences of a growing tyranny at least in the minds of most

41:57

Christians that I know and respect other than that were there specific things that you were facing in your own life as a pastor or as a

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Christian that compelled you to say I've got to put my voice into the conversation here about the church and the government or the government and the church well

42:20

I mean like most churches we had a struggle just making decisions learning what to do and adjusting to the situation and like most churches we had to re -investigate

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Romans 13 and make sure that what we had previously understood was correct and I know we as a church we're just 15 minutes away from John MacArthur and Grace Community Church and we opened our first Sunday a week before they officially opened although they had people coming in before that and so we opened back pretty early on compared to most places and it was a struggle

43:08

I mean it was very very difficult it was a difficult time and I had there was a deacon of the church who point blank told me you can't do church and my response was

43:20

I have a key and I have a mandate and I'm going to be here and I'm going to be teaching so there was a lot of struggle right from the off as to getting reopened and what have you and we got reported to the local health department the first week after we reopened literally within a few days and so for most of the next few months we're trying to fly under the radar as it were we're trying to meet but meet in such a way that we're not really drawing attention to ourselves we just didn't have the the clout legally or otherwise that a larger church like MacArthur's does so it was an interesting time but as to why

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I decided to put my name into the mix and write I didn't really we during the course of a year or so before a sermon on three occasions

44:20

I think it was I had done a sort of 15 minute you know this is where we stand with regards to this this is what the bible teaches on that just as a way of clear on what we were on why we were doing what we were doing and because it had come in bits and pieces and through conversations when we finished a book of the bible

44:44

I often have a few in the next series and I decided to do a two or three week series just summarizing the view that we took and why we took it and what the bible taught on this matter and the idea really to be honest with you

45:05

Chris was just to draw a line under it I thought that I'm going to preach these sermons that's where we stand anybody got any questions we'll refer you back to the previous sermon that's it, line in the sand and the irony is is that now

45:19

I'm still talking about it because the sermons got so much traction and lots of people were saying you need to write this down so I finally did and here

45:31

I am still talking well perhaps you could start with what you surmised were the errors or the areas of ignorance that evangelicals around you were demonstrating over how, when and how long and how much do we obey government mandates and things like this or even unawareness ignorance or error in your the minds of your own congregation what were the initial things that made you say wait a minute we may be getting something wrong here or wait a minute seems like everybody is getting something wrong here well

46:20

I think that for all of us when the book of Hebrews speaks about not neglecting gathering together we all know that's there and so there is the reconciling of that with the premise that Romans 13 tells us to submit to government but the issue that I started addressing in the book was

46:42

I started off by just saying that one of the most bizarre situations that we found ourselves in locally is that Christians who had exactly the same interpretation of Romans 13 ended up doing absolutely completely opposite things with their church so there would be say church

47:06

A that would say well Romans 13 says we have to submit to the governing authorities so when

47:12

Governor Newsom says how high you know tells us how high to jump then we'll jump that high and maybe a little bit higher on top just to be safe you know that we will do exactly as we're told because that's what scripture commands us to do and then church

47:26

B would say well we agree with that interpretation that we should submit to the governing authorities but the governing authority of the

47:33

United States of America is the constitution and therefore this governor or the president is overreaching and they shouldn't be doing this we have rights the freedom of worship and therefore we won't be closing our churches down or we will be reopening them and we will be having church when we're being told not to and that to me was just an incredible irony that you would have people with exactly the same interpretation of exactly the same passage and they would come to completely opposite views of what should be done and then what

48:06

I do in the book is I address that I think that that entire premise is wrong and I don't think that's what

48:13

Romans 13 is saying but also just I mentioned that I just don't think

48:20

American Christians did anybody else any favors in that if American Christians said oh well we've got the constitution so we don't have to obey this particular command and yet they maintain the status quo of this is what

48:36

Romans 13 means normally they're essentially throwing all other

48:41

Christians in other nations under the bus you know that Christians in the UK Christians in Australia Christians in Canada and South Africa and other nations that used to be regarded as free nations that these

48:53

Christians are being basically told by implication you have no constitution that's just tough on you basically and so what

49:01

I think is so important is it deals with Romans 13 in a way that it's applicable to all you obviously know as you've already stated that there not only have been differences of opinion by biblically learned

49:19

Christians and even pastors and theologians and scholars and apologists when we come back from our midway break which we are entering into momentarily what can you say is the conclusion that you have drawn in the midst of hearing polar opposite arguments from faithful Christ loving biblically literate

49:48

Christians perhaps you could give us a brief description of the polar opposite sides and where you fit into the equation and then after that brief description we'll get into more of the detail when we return from our midway break.

50:04

Okay well very brief that we as Christians are supposed to submit to governing authorities and the human government is one of those governing authorities and we are supposed to submit where those authorities have authority over us.

50:24

The question that wasn't asked though is what authority does the government have and that really is the whole premise of the book that if all authority belongs to God which it clearly does in scripture then anybody who has any authority in any realm that that authority has been delegated to them by God and therefore the authority that they have delegated to them is limited in some way shape or form.

50:50

They can't have all authority to or they would be God and therefore the authority is limited and so the issue of do we render unto

50:58

Caesar the issue is what has been delegated to Caesar that we should render it unto him and so the question becomes one of how much authority does the government have and without asking that question the whole issue of submission to government is really quite moot because if I were to tell you

51:18

Chris what to do if I were to say Chris you must do this then if you go ahead and do it then that's because you've agreed with me it's not because I have any authority over you

51:26

I don't and we only have submission where there is legitimate authority so really the book is dealing with what authority does the government have what authority has

51:40

God delegated Great well we have to go to our midway break right now and as I've already said if you have questions and we already have a few people waiting to have their questions asked on air and answered if you would like to get in line with those people already waiting send your questions to chrisarnzen at gmail .com

51:59

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and as always please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

52:11

USA please only remain anonymous if your question really involves a personal and private matter let's say you are in a church and you are very upset with how your elders handled the

52:26

COVID situation and the mandates we obviously wouldn't even want you to identify yourself because we don't want people to have a poor or to hear a poor reflection of your church when we don't even know the facts on both sides so things like that you could remain anonymous but please if it's just a general question a general question about the bible and about what our guests opinion opinions are over these issues if it's just general give us your name your city and state and your country of residence and don't go away god willing we are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors

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Music it's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world here's

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Joe Roiligan, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoy in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.

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Attention all men in ministry leadership, you're all invited to my friend Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, Thursday, September 22nd, 11am to 2pm at Church of the

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Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

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ironsharpensironradio .com. This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, hoping to see you

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Thursday, September 22nd, 11am to 2pm at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, for Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon.

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Call 717 -258 -4688 today. Hello, my name is

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Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

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website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Apple's iTunes app by typing ironsharpensironradio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

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Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

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Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

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podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

01:00:01

Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keach's Catechism and the

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Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking

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Biblical truth. And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689

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London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

01:00:28

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshiped and how

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He shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

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God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

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Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com,

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or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

01:01:58

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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01:03:51

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org, that's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

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01:07:24

Before I return to our discussion with Anthony Forsythe, we have just a couple of announcements to make that are very important.

01:07:32

Please, folks, if you really love the show and you don't want it to disappear, we are in urgent need of your financial assistance.

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It's interesting that our discussion today is really how we are as Christians to respond to government authority and restrictions and mandates and anything that we disagree with, either as an individual or as a congregation, because the

01:08:01

COVID crisis and the hysteria it created and the mandates that came out of it that I believe bordered on, if not far across the border of tyranny, have really hurt

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If you love this show, we need your help. So please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

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01:10:10

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ honoring and biblically faithful church, no matter where you live on the planet

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Earth, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of theologically sound churches, and I may be able to help you find a church like Calvary Baptist Church or Burbank, California.

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And sometimes these churches that I've found for my listeners all over the world are within minutes from their homes.

01:10:32

I may be able to help you find a church in the same distance. Who knows? So it can't hurt.

01:10:39

Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line if you are in need of a spiritually and theologically sound church.

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And we would love to help you. And also, obviously, if it's the question is for somebody that you love who is spiritually homeless, as it were, chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:11:03

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you could send in a question to our guest, Anthony Forsyth, pastor of Calvary Baptist Church of Burbank, California.

01:11:12

On his book, Caesar and the Church, A Biblical Study of Government and the Church. We have

01:11:19

Robert in Westchester County, New York, who has a question for you,

01:11:24

Pastor Anthony. He said most of us heard a friend of Chris Arnson who he has interviewed on his program, but with whom he disagreed over this statement that even if the church tells us to wear pinwheels on sorry,

01:11:44

I read that wrong. Even if the government tells us to wear pinwheels on our heads, we should obey the government and put the pinwheels on.

01:11:52

Do you agree with this very well -known person who is much beloved in reformed and Calvinistic circles?

01:12:01

No, I don't. I strongly disagree because because I think that what that that statement,

01:12:09

I'm fortunate I don't know who he's referring to. So but what that statement does is it is borderline idolatry and that it falls into a form of statism insofar as whatever the government decides it wants to be in charge of, it can be in charge of that.

01:12:28

And what that's doing is it's taking this very, you know, half a verse of Romans 13 saying, you know, submit to governing authorities.

01:12:37

And now suddenly, whatever the government wants to tell us to do, we have to do. That's not what that passage is saying.

01:12:43

In fact, Romans 13, as I show in the book, is in its context is specifically telling telling us what the role of government is and the role of government isn't to have us, you know, dress a certain way, mask up, not mask up.

01:12:59

The government is not designed to be our doctor. It's not designed to be our parents. And it certainly isn't designed to be our

01:13:05

God who can tell us to do whatever it wishes. And we cannot question such decisions. That is completely alien to scripture.

01:13:14

The basic premise of my book, which I think I show fairly well, is that if all authority belongs to God, then any authority that any one of us has in any sphere or realm, that that authority is

01:13:29

God's authority that we are exercising for him. And therefore, we have to ask ourselves, the authority that God has delegated to me, to what extent is it, how limited is it and what is the purpose for it?

01:13:44

You know, I, you know, if I still had small children, I could say to my small children, you know, you need to go to your room or do this and that.

01:13:53

But I can't walk into a public place and tell somebody else's children what to do because I don't have authority over them.

01:13:59

And, you know, all authority is limited in some way, shape or form. So somebody who comes up with a bizarre statement like that, where they basically say, even if the government were to tell us to do, you know,

01:14:10

X, Y, or Z, and you must do exactly what they tell you, unless it's sinful, that that person has just handed to the government almost unlimited authority, which is something that God never does in scripture.

01:14:24

They're essentially making the government a little God, small G. And it gets breathtakingly close to idolatry in many cases.

01:14:35

And I just think we have to be very, very conscious that we don't give to the government authority that God has never granted it, because that is a very dangerous position for us to be in.

01:14:47

Amen. And I'd like to add to that, and I would like you to respond to whether you think what

01:14:54

I'm saying is sound. I think in addition to that, it is dangerous for Christians to perpetuate something that we believe is a superstition and even could be dangerous in regard to others, the health of others, to do certain things like wear masks and do other things that we're being told that this is going to prevent the spread of a virus.

01:15:38

And we hear from our own doctors and scientists that's not true.

01:15:43

In fact, my own doctor, Dr. Joel Yeager of Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania, he said that every medical student would tell you that wearing a mask in order to prevent the spread of the coronavirus is like trying to keep mosquitoes away with a chain link fence.

01:16:06

So by doing these things, it's one thing if you believe that these are truly effective methods, and I think you should be further educated, but when you think they're truly effective methods, that's one thing.

01:16:22

But if you know you're doing something that you don't believe in, isn't it wrong for Christians to identify with helping to spread and further confirm in the minds of the population that a fairy tale is real and true?

01:16:40

Well, I think one thing I was very clear about in the last part of the book, Chris, was just the breadth that we have of issues that we must seek to be motivated by love and guided by our conscience.

01:16:54

And unless the scripture specifically forbids us, then so many of these areas are areas where different believers may come to different conclusions.

01:17:04

And my pastoral advice is for someone to stick to their individual convictions.

01:17:10

Now, if someone is convicted that, you know, there's this virus out there and we shouldn't go to church for the next year, then obviously that would violate the requirements of scripture, it would expose a very low ecclesiology, and therefore they would need to be corrected.

01:17:23

One thing I've been very conscious of is it's not my job to tell people in my church that masks do or don't work.

01:17:32

That's the job of a doctor. I'm not qualified to be a doctor. I have my opinions, I've done my research, and I have to make decisions for myself.

01:17:40

But as a pastor, I have no basis to tell anybody else what to do. I simply need to encourage them to obey scripture.

01:17:48

And scripture doesn't tell us to wear a mask or not wear a mask. So I think it's perfectly possible that a Christian could, you know, with a mask mandate going on, that they could say, well, you know what?

01:17:57

I'm going to put on a mask, even though I think it doesn't work. I'm going to put on a mask to go to the grocery store because I don't want to cause a fuss, and people will get freaked out if I don't wear one.

01:18:07

And I think that's the best way that I could love my neighbor, and I think that's the right thing to do. And then somebody else could say in the same situation, well, you know what?

01:18:15

I'm convinced that this mask mandate is just pure tyranny. I don't think it makes any difference. And I think that the best way for me to love my neighbor is by standing up to this tyranny and going into the store without a mask and being prepared to patiently have conversations with people who confront me or ask me why.

01:18:33

And I think that there's no sin in either of those parties if that's what they're convicted to do. One of the things that I make very clear in the book is that these principles that I am outlining regarding government also apply in other areas.

01:18:49

In other words, you know, we came across a church in California that had a sign up saying faith not fear, and they were saying that you couldn't wear a mask to church.

01:19:01

And, you know, the irony of that is that here is a pastor in his mind standing up to government tyranny, and he's actually engaging tyranny of his own in that he is going beyond the authority that God has granted him.

01:19:17

And I think there are lessons and applications that can be made from this book and from the principles outlined within it that can be applied to pastors and churches, can be applied to husbands and parents.

01:19:29

You know, anybody with authority can use this book as a way of just checking their heart and making sure that while on the one hand they might stand up and say, right, yes, we don't have government tyranny, that on the other hand they might also be checking to make sure that they themselves aren't a tyrant in the realm in which

01:19:50

God has given them authority. Okay, just to further clarify what I was intending behind my statement.

01:19:59

I'm not referring to necessarily somebody who they need to buy milk and eggs and bread and the store that's selling it that's within reasonable distance from where they live insists you wear a mask.

01:20:15

So you put a mask on. I'm talking about the person that's walking around in a beautiful day in the park with a mask on when he knows, or at least is convicted as I am, this is a fairy tale.

01:20:31

This is not preventing the spread of any virus. In fact, my own doctor and others and scientists that I have heard that I trust believe that it's actually injurious to health to have basically a bacteria trap plastered to your face 24 hours a day.

01:20:55

And to prevent proper breathing. I had congestive heart failure.

01:21:01

And when I have those masks on, especially when I've been rebuked, angrily ordered by train engineers and flight attendants, pull that mask above your nose.

01:21:16

I have very extreme difficult breathing. And so basically in the bottom line, when it's not necessary for me to wear a mask to be in a store or in a certain area,

01:21:33

I'm not saying that we have to be the defiant hero for our cause and disregard the wishes of those in authority in that place and take our mask off or never put it on.

01:21:46

I'm talking about the person that is habitually walking around with the mask on just because it is the belief of the status quo that this is the right thing to do.

01:22:00

Yeah, and I understand. I mean, personally, you know, I think we have to separate these things,

01:22:06

Chris, into us as individuals and then me as a pastor before a congregation.

01:22:12

And on a personal level, I completely share your assessment of the efficacy of masks.

01:22:17

And I completely, you know, would agree and say that I would feel that it would be wrong for me to be wearing something as if it had some sort of protection and playing along with the whole farce.

01:22:28

But that's my personal opinion. I don't think I would be as happy in declaring somebody else who chose to do that to be in sin in some way.

01:22:38

I think that, you know, I was one of these people who I, you know, I honest looking at my heart honestly before God and praying that that I would not deceive myself in this matter.

01:22:50

I, I felt that the most loving thing to do here in Los Angeles County, where there were mandates for so long, was to simply not wear a mask when

01:22:59

I was going into places that officially required them. I had lots of great conversations. And in fact,

01:23:05

I had more opportunities to talk about Christ because of that than I had done for some time previously.

01:23:12

But then, on the other hand, you know, I was more than happy to play along with that whole nonsense to get myself on a plane and go and see my grandson in England for the first time, when if I had resisted in any way, shape or form,

01:23:28

I could have been put on a no -fly list. And I think there's a degree of pragmatism. And I think there's some people who, who say, well, you know,

01:23:35

I know it doesn't work, but I'm, I'm not really prepared. You know, I don't want to cause a farce and I want to make other people feel safe.

01:23:43

And I wouldn't agree with that opinion personally. But I think that that is their freedom in Christ to make that decision.

01:23:48

And, you know, and I think that, you know, my concern as a pastor is that people get these principles of scripture correct, including the principle of the limit of government authority.

01:24:03

And the things where scripture isn't completely clear on these personal type of decisions,

01:24:09

I do think people have a lot of liberty to make those decisions for themselves. But as an individual,

01:24:14

I make that for myself. And I'm, I would be in complete agreement with you. By the way, just so our listeners get an idea of the caliber of well -known and highly respected

01:24:27

Christians who love his book, so that they get an idea of who these people are,

01:24:34

I just want to read a few commendations. First of all, a commendation from one of my greatest living heroes on the planet

01:24:44

Earth, John MacArthur, pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, and chancellor at the

01:24:50

Masters University and Seminary. He says, the COVID crisis has caused many of us to consider and apply these principles with more meticulous care and discernment than ever before, because secular governments across the globe have exploited and relentlessly worked to magnify fears about the threat to public health posed by the virus.

01:25:13

In the process, both federal and local governments in many Western nations have tried to assert control over churches in order to restrict or reorder

01:25:21

Christian gatherings for worship. Anthony Forsyth has considered these issues biblically and has written a remarkably clear and helpful overview on the topic.

01:25:31

I know it will be a great encouragement to pastors and laypeople alike as we all attempt to respond righteously to so many unexpected threats to the liberty we enjoy in Christ.

01:25:45

Also, one of my favorite guests that I have interviewed,

01:25:50

Paul Washer, founder and missions director at HeartCry Missionary Society, and pray for Brother Washer, by the way, he is experiencing heart problems again that have prevented him from participating in the

01:26:02

Reform Baptist Network conference coming up this month. But Paul Washer says, this brief work was extremely helpful to me.

01:26:14

I also appreciate that it was written with the kind of a heart of a pastor.

01:26:21

I'm sorry, I really messed that up. I appreciate that it was written with the kind heart of a pastor.

01:26:28

Sorry about that. And last but not least, Jenna Ellis, attorney for John MacArthur and Grace Community Church, who's also one of the featured speakers at the upcoming

01:26:38

G3 conference, where I am manning my exhibitors booth. Jenna Ellis says,

01:26:45

Forsyth's prudent analysis of scripture shows this truth. All power comes from Christ.

01:26:50

All authority is his alone, and the legitimate authority delegated to the state, therefore, must protect the church and the

01:26:58

Christian to exercise our faith. It is incumbent on every Christian to understand the authority of Christ and begin to scrutinize, through the lens of scripture, the laws and legal doctrines of an ever -changing political landscape.

01:27:13

Politicians will clash, petty tyrants will come and go, but truth never changes. This book will teach you how to stand even more firmly in the truth that Christ, not

01:27:23

Caesar, is the head of the church. What an eloquent commendation, and that is definitely a commendation that you should all take seriously.

01:27:36

We have another questioner that I think asks something very valid, and this is an anonymous listener.

01:27:46

And the anonymous listener says, I'm anonymous because I did not appreciate the way my own church, where I'm a member, handled the

01:27:54

COVID mandates. Having said that, do you think a Christian should ever follow a mandate or restriction by a secular government that intrudes into areas and aspects and elements of public worship?

01:28:11

For instance, I know people overseas that are members of churches where they were forbidden to sing hymns because it was supposed to be a further catalyst to project the coronavirus into the nostrils and mouths of those around them.

01:28:32

This was pure lunacy, in my opinion. But do we as Christians not only have the right and liberty to reject a mandate such as that, but also a duty to, because it compels us to actually disobey a command of God, which is singing in the church?

01:28:52

And of course, this could involve other things like the Lord's Supper and matters that involve a fear that may be struck in the hearts of Christians to obey the government in order not to spread an illness.

01:29:07

Yeah, I mean, the answer to that is very simple. The answer is absolutely they have no right to impose that on the government.

01:29:14

The government doesn't have authority over the church and how it functions. And for most of us in our churches, for example, singing is part of what we do.

01:29:24

And there's passages of scripture, Ephesians 5 immediately comes to mind that speak of that as being a normative part of our acts of worship.

01:29:33

And therefore, that's what we must do. And the government has no authority to tell us otherwise. And one of the passages

01:29:42

I dealt with in my book at some length was in 2 Chronicles 26, where Isaiah, who's the king, decides that he wants to have some authority in the temple as if he were a priest.

01:29:58

And there are those brave priests who are aware that he's overstepping his authority.

01:30:04

And this is a king that could kill them. This is a king that could put them to death for daring to stop him.

01:30:10

And these 80 priests of the Lord of Yahweh, they come against the king, and they said to him that it wasn't his job.

01:30:19

They said, it's not for you, Isaiah, to burn incense to Yahweh, but it's for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who were set apart as holy to burn incense.

01:30:28

And then they say this wonderful expression, get out of the sanctuary.

01:30:34

And I had a couple of friends who suggested to me that that would be a good title for my book, Get Out of the

01:30:40

Sanctuary. And I think it is our statement to the government when they say to us, you may not sing.

01:30:50

You must be outside. You may do this, but you can't do that. We expect you to socially distance.

01:30:56

Everybody must wear a mask. People coming must be vaccinated. Our response is always get out of the sanctuary.

01:31:03

Not your business, not your domain. You have no authority here. Get out.

01:31:09

Amen. Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention, that was very silly of me,

01:31:15

I forgot to mention some extremely good news. Those of you who have already submitted questions and a limited number of others in our audience who submit questions have won or will win a free copy of this book that we are addressing

01:31:34

Thanks to the generosity of Crest Biblical Resources, you are getting a free copy of the book we are discussing,

01:31:43

Caesar and the Church, A Biblical Study of Government and the Church. And we also want to thank our dear friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:31:56

who will be the ones shipping it out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

01:32:02

So thanks again, Crest Biblical Resources and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:32:08

In fact, what I'm going to do is I'm going to take our final break now so I don't have to interrupt you in mid -sentence.

01:32:15

It's going to be a lot shorter, this break, than the other breaks. And as always, if you have questions, please submit them.

01:32:23

And in this case, submit them quickly because we'll be out of time before you know it. Send them to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:32:31

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:32:42

USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:32:48

Don't go away. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend

01:33:10

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.

01:33:15

for the G3 Ministries regional conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held

01:33:22

Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th. And I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the

01:33:33

Just Thinking podcast. To register, visit g3min .org. That's g3min .org.

01:33:40

And click on events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.

01:33:48

So join me and Chris Arnson, September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C. for the

01:33:54

G3 Ministries regional conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org.

01:34:00

That's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

01:34:13

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01:35:40

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01:37:17

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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See you there, October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee. Welcome back.

01:45:12

We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. Greetings, brothers. Basically, isn't

01:45:18

Romans 13 about the government carrying out punishment under God, punishment under God's and the church's authority whenever capital crimes are committed?

01:45:30

Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily limited to capital crimes, Chris. But what is clear and what the book clearly shows by going back to the end of Romans 12 and looking at the context is that Paul has been speaking in the end of Romans 12 about good and evil.

01:45:45

And what happens is that when evil is done to us, we are not to repay evil with evil.

01:45:52

That is not our job, and that's where we have the famous verse where God says, Vengeance is mine.

01:45:58

Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. And then in Romans 13, he picks up this parallel of good and evil, and he continues the thread, and he shows that the role of government is to punish evil.

01:46:13

That's the role of government. I don't think it's limited purely to capital things, but it's the punishment of evil in a general sense.

01:46:20

So broadly speaking, that is the role of the government, to reward good and punish evil. And I think that the only other thing to mention there, of course, is that what

01:46:31

Isaiah says about woe to you who calls good evil and evil good. And it is

01:46:37

God who gets to define what is good and evil, and not whoever happens to be in a position in the government.

01:46:44

So it is their job to punish evil as God defines it, and not as they define it.

01:46:51

And anything outside of that, they really are going outside of the authority that God has given to them.

01:46:57

Yeah, I mean, after Joe Biden's speech last night, I don't know if you saw it, that he gave from Philadelphia, in Philadelphia, I mean,

01:47:08

I could see people, and this sounds like a crazy conspiracy nut job statement, but I don't believe it is.

01:47:16

I could see very easily in the relatively near future that we who are

01:47:23

Christians will be rounded up, arrested, and imprisoned for a very long time, if not for life, for being terrorists and enemies of the state simply for believing and teaching and obeying

01:47:37

Christ's word, especially when it comes to matters of homosexuality, restricting how people who are actively involved in homosexuality may participate in the house of God.

01:47:56

And, you know, we could go on and on. Our prohibition of children to be mutilated sexually by doctors and others with medication and surgery.

01:48:07

Who knows? I mean, the speech last night was chilling. I think what is clear,

01:48:14

Chris, is what is happening now is that, you know, I mean, it's kind of where all these things combine, all of these issues we're talking about combine, in that, you know, when you look in Genesis and you look at the creation account,

01:48:27

God, when he creates, he declares that his creation is good. He saw the light was good.

01:48:34

And, you know, he separates the earth from the sea. It's good. He plants.

01:48:40

It's good. And night and darkness, good. And, you know, creatures, good.

01:48:45

And everything is good. And he sees that what he's made is good. And then there is this tree that they are not to eat from, which is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

01:48:57

And, of course, they know what is good and what is evil. These other fruits are good. And you shouldn't eat from this tree.

01:49:02

That's not good. That's evil. So they know what's good and evil. The issue of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is having the determination that we will decide what is good and what is evil as opposed to God deciding.

01:49:17

And the first time that there was in the Bible outside of God declaring things to be good is when

01:49:23

Eve, the tree, was good for food. And, you know, that's really the this is this is the ground here.

01:49:32

This is the age old battle. It's like we see that God in creation. Do we glorify him as God?

01:49:39

Do we give him thanks? And part of that glorifying of him and recognizing of who he is is to allow him to define what is good and what is evil.

01:49:48

And as soon as we decide that we will determine what is good and evil, then we have made ourselves

01:49:56

God. And that is that is the hallmark of rebellion against him. And so when government comes along and says, well, what you're doing is wrong by having church, we must punish this.

01:50:09

It's not simply us saying, oh, we better do as we're told so we don't cause trouble. They are basically taking something that God has told us to do and declared as good and they are declaring it as evil.

01:50:21

And that is something that we must we mustn't just, you know, stand up against. We must shout about and say this is despicable that you would declare to be to be evil.

01:50:32

Something called good. Just as you call things that God declares to be evil. You call those things good.

01:50:38

I mean, this is the battleground moving forward. And I think it's very, very telling that we've had two years of COVID, which has really separated the churches out and those who say, no, we will not let you define these parameters for us.

01:50:55

These are the places to trust moving forward, more so than those who who basically said, yes, sir, no, sir, three bags full, sir.

01:51:04

When the government told them what to do. I mean, how can we trust such people to stand up against the government's misdefining of good and evil in the future?

01:51:15

Amen. And by the way, Grady, you have also won a free copy of the book we are addressing today,

01:51:23

Caesar and the Church, a biblical study of government and the church by our guest, Anthony Forsyth.

01:51:29

We have Cindy and Findley, Ohio. Say that 10 times fast. Good evening,

01:51:36

Chris and Pastor Forsyth. My question this evening is this. Did anyone leave your church over how you handled the mandates?

01:51:45

Yes, about half the church. Wow. And all of the leadership, every every one of the.

01:51:51

Wow. Really? Yeah. Did I miss something? Did you say that? Did you say that in the beginning of the show?

01:51:57

Because I don't remember. No, I know. You know, it's we had we had some families that wanted to meet outside rather than inside.

01:52:07

And they made it when they were told no, they made it their business to try and separate and divide the leadership of the church over this matter so they could get their own way.

01:52:17

And they pulled some other people into their way of thinking. And we had all sorts of drama and problems and what have you.

01:52:26

And, yeah, we've seen the it's only a small church anyway. So when when we make a stand on things like this and we lose certain families, then it impacts us.

01:52:38

I mean, you know, we were told by one outgoing person who'd been involved in the finances, the giving of the church continues at the current rate with all the people who've now left.

01:52:50

You will have 40 percent of the of the income that you had as a church in the coming year.

01:52:56

So, you know, they were slamming the door on the way out and warning us, look what you've done to the church sort of thing.

01:53:02

And, you know, as as leaders, you know, anyone in church leadership will tell you, as you know yourself, it's just this is this is the sort of thing where you have to say,

01:53:11

OK, Lord, I look to you as my provider and nobody else. I look to you to bring people to this church and not my own ingenuity.

01:53:18

And I am it's a test, isn't it, to see how much we really trust in him. And when you have a church of 50 people and you lose half the people, then that's that's a test.

01:53:30

But praise God, we've had other people who've joined us since. And we've you know, we haven't gone without as a church.

01:53:37

We've continued to survive financially and God has been most gracious to us.

01:53:43

So but if a pastor isn't if a pastor isn't prepared to make those decisions, they have no business being a pastor.

01:53:51

And if a pastor is going to make the wrong decision because of pressure from certain families in the church, then that person has no business being a pastor.

01:54:01

This is the stuff that we are called to do. Amen. And I hope this doesn't sound too crass, people listening.

01:54:08

But I've been in marketing since the 1980s. Most of my the vast majority of our adult life of my adult life,

01:54:16

I've been involved in advertising and marketing. And I think perhaps the next time

01:54:22

Cress does a reprint of your book, they should add to the subtitle, counsel from a pastor in the aftermath of losing all his elders and half his congregation.

01:54:34

Because that's a profound element to this whole thing of your determination to fear

01:54:42

God and obey God and not man. Well, I mean, respectfully, Chris, I don't really

01:54:47

I don't think it is. I mean, it's just a case of I the way I wrote the book was it was designed to be a very simple book outlining basic biblical principles in a very simple way so that people who go to churches that don't have expository preaching, people who go to churches that aren't very sound theologically, but even those

01:55:08

Christians could understand it. And, you know, that's all I do is I just, you know, it's my job.

01:55:13

I just teach Bible. And that's all I'm doing in the book. I'm just teaching Bible. And and I don't

01:55:18

I don't think it's it's, you know, John MacArthur taught these matters in his church very well as well.

01:55:26

And his church grew as a result. In fact, most churches who've who've, you know, stayed open and resisted government have grown as a result.

01:55:35

Yes, like Apologia Church, where my friend Dr. James R. White is on the pastoral team. They've, I think, tripled in size.

01:55:41

Yeah. And I think, you know, our issue is is twofold. I think, firstly, when a church is very small anyway, then it becomes much harder for people to come because so much of the, you know, the bells and whistles that they that they've come to expect in a church are not able to provide for them.

01:55:58

So it's harder for people to come sometimes to smaller churches. And I think the other problem that we have is that we are, as I said, 15 minutes away from John MacArthur's church.

01:56:07

And so it's a very easy option for people. I know plenty of people will probably drive past us on the way up there.

01:56:14

But, you know, what we what whether we whether we were to benefit from these decisions or not benefit from these decisions,

01:56:22

I wouldn't want to mention it in the book, per se, because I think it's irrelevant. The arguments that I make have to stand on their own merit.

01:56:30

You know that you're in the book. I'm you know, here's the first principle. Do you understand this? Right. Let's move on to the next principle built on that.

01:56:37

Now, the next principle. And you're just walking people through it slowly. And these arguments have to stand on their own merit, regardless of any benefit or loss.

01:56:47

Well, I'd like you to have a minute where you could summarize where you what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air.

01:56:56

Oh, my goodness. What do I want to go away thinking? Well, simply that I think if anybody has has questions about this issue,

01:57:08

I think the book probably resolves pretty much every issue that would come up. Not necessarily specifically every issue, but certainly the principles underlying other decisions and things that would arise.

01:57:23

And I if there's anybody whose church closed down pastors who didn't know what to do, people who still think that Romans 13 simply means do whatever the government tells you to do.

01:57:36

I just hope and pray that this book will be a very useful tool in the hands of many to just get them to a biblical understanding of these issues.

01:57:47

Amen. And if anybody wants to purchase the book, go to CVBBS .com,

01:57:52

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and ask for Caesar and the Church by Anthony Forsythe and tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arns and an

01:58:02

Iron Trip and Zion Radio. For anybody wanting to find out more about the church where my guest pastors go to CalvaryBaptistBurbank .org

01:58:12

and Burbank is spelled B -U -R -B -A -N -K, CalvaryBaptistBurbank .org.

01:58:18

I want to thank you so much for being such an extraordinary guest. I look forward to your return if you are willing to return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio frequently and soon.

01:58:29

And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. Please don't forget to register.

01:58:35

If you're a man in ministry leadership, register for the Iron Trip and Zion Radio pastor's luncheon featuring

01:58:40

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Uh, this, uh, coming, uh,

01:58:47

September 22nd, which is a Thursday, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Lloydsville, Pennsylvania.

01:58:54

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.