May 20, 2022 Show with William F. Hill on “A Call to Presbyterians to Return to their Conservative, Confessional & Biblical Heritage”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 20th day of May 2022 after just having returned from Kentucky the day before yesterday after a wonderful evening at the

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Northern Kentucky University for an evening with John MacArthur that was hosted by Don Green, pastor of Truth Community Church in Cincinnati, Ohio.

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And it was just such a blessed time to see and hear Dr. MacArthur, one of my heroes of the faith, preach live and in person.

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And this time, for the first time, I was actually very close to the podium where he was speaking and was nearly directly beneath it and had a chance to see so many dear friends who

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I've interviewed on this program and also meet for the first time listeners to the program.

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And I just thank Don Green for putting on that event. With Dr.

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MacArthur, who preached on Isaiah 53, did a masterful job on that. And I was very honored that Don Green also announced

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio from the podium. So I was very grateful for that.

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Today we have a returning guest. I always love interviewing William F. Hill, who is pastor of Providence Presbyterian Church in Evansville, Indiana, which is a member of the

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Presbyterian Church in America denomination. He's also a blogger at TheParchment .net.

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Today we're going to be addressing a call to Presbyterians to return to their conservative, confessional, and biblical heritage.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Bill Hill. Thanks, Chris.

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Great to be here with you again. Well, once again, tell our listeners about Providence Presbyterian Church in Evansville.

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Sure. Well, as you mentioned, we are a congregation of the Presbyterian Church in America. The church has been here for, oh, seven or eight years,

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I guess. I've been pastoring the congregation for the last year and a half.

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About a mid -sized congregation, I would say, by PCA standards.

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And currently working on getting our own building. So we're currently running, but so be it.

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And, yeah, not much more to say. It's a good church.

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There are good people eager to learn. It's a privilege to pastor them.

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And, yeah, we just, as I mentioned, we just changed. We used to be called

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Providence Church, and I was able to convince the elders that we needed to be a little more distinctive in our name as to who we really are, not kind of bury the idea of being

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Presbyterian behind the door, so to speak. So we had just changed our name from Providence Church to Providence Presbyterian Church.

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And so that's more or less official now. At least it's all over our

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Facebook page. And I'll be even happier when I hear the good news that the name is changed once again to Providence Reform Baptist Church.

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Just kidding. This program wouldn't be complete if you didn't at least say that once.

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So with that, I guess the program's over. No, I'm kidding. No, there's probably no chance of that happening.

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I mean, it could, but I probably wouldn't be the pastor. Well, if anybody wants more details about Providence Presbyterian Church in Evansville, Indiana, go to providencechurche,

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V as in Victor, V as in Victor .com. That's providencechurche,

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E as in Edward, V as in Victor, V as in Victor .com. And I will hopefully remember to announce that information again toward the end of the program.

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Well, we are going to be talking about something that is fairly controversial.

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The theme, as I already mentioned, is a call to Presbyterians to return to their conservative, confessional, and biblical heritage.

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It seems to me as an observer that while Reformed Baptists, confessional

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Reformed Baptists are having their own infighting and disagreement and in -house debates, ranging from irenic and brotherly disagreement more towards the hostile side of the division.

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There's some pleasantries and friendly disagreements, and there's also some, especially on the

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Internet, unfortunately some nasty exchange between confessional

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Reformed Baptists. And in our situation, from what I see, it's not typically because there are confessional

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Reformed Baptist churches becoming more liberal. They are becoming more stern and rigid with whom they have fellowship and some have distanced themselves with other confessional

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Reformed Baptists because they don't think that they are accurately really following the summary of biblical belief in the

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Confession, and some would say that they're not truly full subscriptionists, etc.

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Even though that a decade ago there was little or no disagreement at all amongst these same brethren over these issues.

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These seem to be new issues that have arisen amongst us. I'm not saying that the issues are new, really.

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They're old issues, but they are issues that have become more central in the minds of our

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Reformed Baptist brethren. But on the other side of the coin, I am seeing, and you can correct me if I'm wrong,

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I'm seeing even within conservative Presbyterian denominations some nervousness and anxiety and regret and disappointment amongst my friends and brethren in the varying conservative

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Presbyterian denominations as they see a softening on the opposition to homosexuality and the adoption of things that would come under the banner of the social justice movement and critical race theory.

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So tell me in your own words how are you responding to this, and have

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I accurately described the situation, and how we are to proceed from here?

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Yeah, no, I think it's fairly accurate. I mean, I will say up front that, and of course, there will be people that will disagree with this statement.

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There will be people that will disagree with just about everything I say today, and that's okay. But I don't think social media is the best place to debate these intramural, in -house type issues.

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As one of my professors in seminary would often say, the medium controls the message.

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Of course, he's only quoting Neil Postman's book, Amusing Ourselves to Death, but the fact remains that social media is not the best platform for debate of very tight, interwoven, and oftentimes complicated theological issues, whether it's

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Reformed Baptists or Presbyterians, whoever it may be. So you asked me how

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I've been responding to some of these things. By and large,

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I've tried to avoid the debate on Facebook or Twitter or whatever the case may be for that reason.

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I don't think it's solvable there. I don't think it will be solved there. I think, frankly, it creates more problems than it solves.

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And I would implore my brothers, especially within the confines of the PTA, to be a little more circumspect and careful as to how they approach themselves when it comes to social media in general.

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But when it comes to these kinds of issues, these things need to be handled face -to -face, generally within the confines of our own

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Presbyterian as pastors. We really ought to be educating our elders as to the matters that affect our denomination, because those are the men laboring alongside the pastors in the denomination that are going to have voting stock at Presbytery, voting stock at General Assembly, and that's where the labor really needs to happen.

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And so that's what I've attempted to do as a pastor. I've brought the matters that face the denomination, mine, of course, being the

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PCA, to their attention. I've tried to guide them through some of the very complicated issues, understanding that they have jobs, full -time, as it were, secular employment, they have families, and they don't have the time that I have, as it were, to read the numerous articles, books, watch the numerous videos that exist out there.

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And so they're going to be depending on me to guide them through these somewhat difficult things. And with that said, we are, as a session, we are actually studying these issues formally to see just exactly how that impacts us as a church and our witness to the world here in Evansville, which is obviously a great concern that we have.

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So that's what I'm doing. So I'm simply trying to stay abreast of what is happening and paying attention to the issues as they occur.

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In addition to that, of course, being active both in my own presbytery, but as well as at General Assembly, which is occurring about a month from now,

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I think, June 20th, I'll be in Birmingham, Alabama. I'm serving on the Overtures Committee again this year.

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And, of course, there is where matters of such that you've mentioned are discussed, debated, and presented to the floor, the larger body of the denomination for deliberation and vote.

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And that's where I think the effort needs to be primarily given. Now, this is not to say that sideline discussions that occur on social media or whatever are not helpful as far as information.

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It's just not going to solve the problem. It won't solve the problems that occur. In fact, sometimes I think they only make things worse, but that's more or less my opinion, which

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I don't know that everybody would share, but that's fine. So, yeah, that's what

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I'm doing. That's where I'm trying to put my time, my effort. I only have so many hours in a day like everybody else, and I just can't fight every battle, but I can put my time and energy into those ruling elders that I have here at Providence and try to inform them as to what the issues are and how to respond to it in a godly way, in a biblical way, as faithful Presbyterians trying to maintain our vows to the denomination, to the

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Lord, as it pertains to our confession, as it pertains to our polity, and to do things decently and in order.

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Presbyterians favor first. Now, both of our confessions, the

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Westminster and the 1689 London Baptist Confession, are nearly identical. The reason that confessions have existed, and you can correct me if you disagree, but it is to state a biblical summary on the main points of doctrine that a particular church or fellowship or denomination desires to preserve, and it avoids people coming up with all kinds of aberrant, heterodox, or heretical interpretations of scripture and covering themselves by claiming that they see these things in the

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Bible. One of the reasons why churches are confessional is that there are many people throughout history who have called themselves

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Biblicists and who claim they are only using the Bible alone as their inerrant, infallible authority and their only guide for theology, doctrine, practice, and all things related to salvation and godly living.

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But, as I said before, when somebody ascends into a pulpit, they can claim things that they are teaching are biblical, and yet there will be many who radically disagree, and there will be many throughout history whom these individuals would be contradicting, many throughout history who are considered heroes of the faith and defenders and champions of orthodoxy.

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So, how is it then that a confessional church, in your opinion, how is it that a professedly confessional church can go off the rails like this?

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We have sometimes used even the phraseology that the confessions are guardrails, but it seems that there are some that have broken through the guardrail and gone off the cliff.

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How does that happen? Well, there could be any number of reasons why that does occur.

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It could be just a simple looseness in holding people accountable to their concessional, to the concessional standard itself.

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Within the PCA, we take vows to maintain the system of doctrine that's contained within the

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Westminster standards. That includes the confession of faith, the larger and shorter catechism. And, of course, when people step outside those standards, which occurs and is occurring, it is incumbent upon the other presbyters to rein that in.

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Now, many efforts have been tried in different areas to do that. Sometimes they're successful and sometimes they're not.

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But it does occur when good men fail to act in matters that pertain to our doctrines.

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And so when that happens, of course, the aberrant views as defined by extra or ultra -confessional positions begin to creep into the church, which, of course, affects the teaching of the church and it affects the people in the church, and then it becomes a systemic problem that leads into many other areas.

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And so I think that's what we have going on in Presbyterianism. Now, understand that this has been a perennial problem.

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This has been a problem since the beginning by virtue of the fact that we're sinners and there's a bunch of sinners in the church, and sometimes the biggest ones are in the eldership.

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And so mistakes get made. But that's why being a Presbyterian is helpful because you have other brothers, other presbyters that are there to help hold the line, maintain the fences, mend those fences when they're eroded, when they're broken through, as you put it, and to try to plug the gaps where aberrant views may be creeping in.

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So when that doesn't happen, of course, these views become more mainstream or more dominant.

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We're dealing with one right now when it comes to the whole revoice issue and Side B, A, Christianity.

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We're dealing with a theological issue as much as a practical issue, and a lot of that stems right down to the question of our definition and understanding of original sin and the doctrine of coccupacence and how that is answered by the

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Westminster Standards. Now, the Westminster Standards answer that quite clearly. However, there have been some within our own denomination that have willingly either ignored those clear statements or have sought ways to get around them.

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And we haven't yet, as of yet, been very successful in heading off those aberrant views.

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And so what we have, at least in some corners of the PCA, we have some that hold to a

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Roman Catholic doctrine of coccupacence, which is clearly an anti -confessional position.

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So that's an example of one such case in which, if allowed to continue, will begin to affect and erode the confessional stance and position of the denomination and create great turmoil, which is what we are witnessing.

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Now, could you define coccupacence and also be clear about how the

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Roman Catholic Church views that? Yeah, well, just simply, putting it very simply, the

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Roman Catholic view just simply argues that original sin is not actual sin until one actually commits the sin itself.

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So whereas the Reformed position clearly states that original sin is sin, and it's sin whether I act on it, it's sin regardless.

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I am a sinner, therefore I sin. It's not that I become a sinner when I sin. I'm already a sinner prior to sinning.

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So it strikes at the issue of desire, and that's the revoice argument.

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While they may have a desire to same -sex attraction, that desire itself is not sin.

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But our confessions make it quite clear that that desire itself is sin. Whether you act on it or not is irrelevant.

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It is still a sin. And it doesn't necessarily have to be homosexuality.

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If I have a desire to murder my neighbor, it's a sin. Whether I actually murder my neighbor or not is irrelevant.

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Well, it would be very relevant, of course, but it's still the point that the desire itself is still sin.

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Yes, of course. I mean, that's what Christ himself said about adultery, that if we lust, we've already committed adultery in our heart.

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Yes. And so, you know, this is at the core, at least one of the central issues that is being debated.

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And with that said, you know, there are good men who have labored quite faithfully to try to rectify these issues.

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But as of yet, we as a denomination have not been able to eradicate this matter.

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And your listeners may not be aware, especially if they're not really dialed into what's going on in the

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PCA. But last year, the last year's General Assembly two overtures, that is changes to our rules, changes to the book of church order, were passed by the

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General Assembly. And in order for those to be ratified by the entire denomination, two thirds of the 88 presbyteries have to pass it in order for it to become part of our rules.

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Both of those overtures that sought to deal with this problem both failed.

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Now, what does that mean? I don't know. I know it means they failed. I know it means that we don't have these clear statements in our rules regarding ordaining, so to speak, side

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B gay Christian men. I prefer to just say ordain homosexuals because that's what they are, by their own admission and by their own statements.

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And so what does that mean for the denomination? That means we're still dealing with the matter, and we're not answering the matter.

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According to our written statement of faith, our written doctrines, the confession of faith, that clearly answers the question.

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Now, with that said, it doesn't mean that the denomination itself as a whole wants to ordain homosexual men.

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We have to be very careful here. I don't know why people vote the way they vote. I only know what the outcome of the vote is.

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So you can only imagine I would vote no. I would vote for those overtures.

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But other people did not for whatever reason. But regardless of the reason, we still have the problem, and it's precisely because we're not lining up with our confession that we believe, take vows to uphold and subscribe to, and to study and apply to the church at large.

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And it's not the only issue, of course. It just happens to be the most prominent one right now.

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But there are other issues that the church has wrestled with over history. The question of creation and Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 4, what does it mean when they say, in six days,

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God created the heavens and the earth? Okay, so does that mean six literal 24 -hour period of time?

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And so forth and so on. There's been debate over the use of images of Christ.

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And when our confession makes it quite clear in the larger catechism that we are not to have any images of any kind, whether in the mind or elsewhere, of any member of the

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Godhead, that seems to be a matter in which people part of company and choose to not agree with.

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That latter one, wouldn't it largely be due to a difference on whether or not one adopts the normative principle of worship or the regulative principle of worship, the latter of which prohibits including anything in worship that is not specifically mentioned as either a command or a matter of an apostolic example that we would have in a worship service?

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Not in other areas of life, but in an actual worship service. Whereas the normative...

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It's not so much the normative or regulative principle issue because most of the people that I've experienced in my 20 -some odd years being in the

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PCA that think images of Christ are allowable would say at the same time that it's not to be used in a worship context, but more for pedagogical reasons, that is, teaching.

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So you might remember as a kid that when you sat in Sunday school your teacher might use a flannel graph.

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Me, myself, I realized. But the fact is that sometimes those flannel graphs would use an image of Christ, supposed image of Christ, and the proponents of doing that would say that's allowable, that the

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Bible doesn't prohibit that use.

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I would strongly disagree with that, but because of the endgame that's involved in any image of Christ, any image of the

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Godhead, all theology, all aspects of theology should lead to doxology, and so it's unavoidable to create in one's mind a false representation of the

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Godhead when we place pictures of him before us. So these are just examples of the kinds of confessional matters that have been wrestled with for a substantial amount of time.

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But in the interest of full disclosure, I am a strict subscriptionist. I uphold the

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Westminster Standards without exception and would prefer that we get away from the whole concept of good faith subscription altogether.

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But I don't really have much hope in that happening within the confines of the

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PCA and I can operate well within it, but the fact remains that I think some of the issues that we wrestle with is a direct result of that decision that occurred, oh great, well

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I don't exactly remember, it was quite a while ago that the nomination moved in this good faith subscription direction and I think since then we have seen these kinds of problems become very divisive within the denomination, has basically created two camps of people within the denomination, like it or not, there are conservatives, there are progressives, there are liberals, and I know people don't like those titles, they're just titles,

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I'm not using them pejoratively, they just are what they are. And just like if someone were to call me a

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Calvinist, I don't get upset if someone says I'm a Calvinist, I'm a Calvinist, it doesn't bother me, they're using it pejoratively or not, it doesn't matter, it's true,

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I'm a Calvinist, I'm fine. So I don't use those terms in a pejorative manner.

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Well, we are going to our first break right now and if anybody has a question for Bill Hill, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

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Don't go away, we'll be right back with Pastor Bill Hill right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back, and I do hope to see as many of you who are men in ministry leadership at the luncheon as possible.

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And we are now back with my guest today, Pastor Bill Hill. And Pastor Bill is, as I mentioned before, pastor of Providence Presbyterian Church in Evansville, Indiana, which is a member of the

40:14

Presbyterian Church in America denomination. We are talking about a call to Presbyterians to return to their conservative, confessional, and biblical heritage.

40:24

If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

40:30

Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence. If you live outside the

40:35

USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Now you've mentioned before the break when you were including a list of labels of men in ministry and perhaps even congregations within the

40:54

PCA, you mentioned among that list of descriptions that would have included conservative and progressive and liberal.

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You've actually mentioned liberal. Now that is usually a term as long as I have been an evangelical that is reserved for people who have crossed the line into heresy and even apostasy.

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I mean, are you speaking about full -blown liberalism in the PCA, such as a belief not only that somebody could be a quote -unquote gay

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Christian, but that somebody can be actively involved physically in that behavior, that damnable and unnatural behavior, which

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God calls an abomination, and that they may even deny some of the pillars of the faith as liberals often do, such as the virgin conception of Christ, the bodily, physical resurrection of Christ, the

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Trinity. We could go on and on and on about many ways in which your typical mainline denominations, including many within the

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PCUSA, would be guilty of. And I said many, not all.

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I even know some thoroughly reformed and conservative and biblically sound men who remain in the

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PCUSA, but I think that they're a minority for sure. But is that what you're saying, that there are those kinds of liberals in the

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PCA still in leadership and ministry? I don't know of any individuals that would qualify as denying central tenets of Christianity as blinded.

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With that said, I'm speaking about the broader denomination itself, and within the context of the denomination, any ideology that says it's okay to ordain men who are self -identifying as homosexual,

42:57

I would hardly classify as progressive. I would classify that as liberal as it pertains to our confessional doctrines.

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Now, you mentioned the PCUSA. I mean, most of us would say the PCUSA is liberal, but the fact is they don't deny the deity of Christ, and they uphold many of the central tenets of Christianity.

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In fact, they say they subscribe to the Westminster standards. Now, I think we know better.

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We know that in practice they do not actually adhere to their own doctrines.

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Just like on paper, for years before many of them decided to be honest and give up on their confessional standards, the

43:44

Episcopal Church claimed on paper to adhere to the 39 Articles of Religion, which are very conservative and Calvinist, and the

43:55

Book of Common Prayer and so forth, but that was a facade. They didn't really uphold these things.

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They just put them on their websites for some reason. Well, yeah, I think we're talking about the difference between orthopraxis and orthodoxy, right?

44:12

So what they may say they believe doesn't work itself out in the factual practice.

44:17

That's what I'm getting at here. Within the confines of my denomination, we have clear statements within our confessional standard, which

44:25

I stopped using as an administrator and started applying it not only theologically within the confines of the church, but also practically pastorally within the confines of the church, and when we depart from the pastoral, the orthopraxic, the practice of orthodoxy, we place ourselves in great danger to moving into a similar camp as we would bemoan the

44:57

PCUSA being a part of. Now, I'm not suggesting the PCA is a liberal denomination.

45:03

I'm not saying that at all, and I don't want anybody to write you or write me later and say that I said that because I didn't say that.

45:09

What I'm saying is that we are in danger of moving in that direction when we fail to use our confessional standards both theologically and pastorally, and when we do not use them in both ways in which they need to be used, we run the risk of becoming a progressively leaning, if not full -blown, liberal -leaning denomination at the end of the day.

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The consequence is just that, and that's historically verified in every denomination that has started to play loose and fast with their own standards, ends up in a very bad place.

45:47

And so, no, I don't know of any individuals within the PCA that would deny the deity of Christ.

45:54

I hope there's none. I don't know if any would deny the inerrancy of Scripture or the inspiration for totality, the five solos of the

46:04

Reformation. I've never experienced a person like that. There are people within the denomination that I don't agree with on matters pertaining to the

46:11

Lord's Day and the days of creation, images of Christ, and so forth, but that does not make them liberal.

46:23

But I'm simply using the term in the sense of within the boundaries of our confessional standards, if we begin to play loose and fast with those clear statements of our own doctrines, we run the risk of becoming that.

46:36

Yeah, I don't know why. For some reason, you are breaking up.

46:41

I don't know why that is occurring, but it is happening sometimes, usually towards the end of your sentences.

46:48

But would you say, my immediate observation seeing and hearing about all these things that are occurring in your denomination and elsewhere is that there seems to be a difference of opinion amongst folks in the same denomination about how can we call

47:15

God a God of love and have such harsh views against people who are involved unrepentantly in certain sins, either in thought or deed, and also the compartmentalizing, they would say, some folks, of sin itself and putting sins in different categories, some being more serious than others, and they will say, that is wrong, that you will very often hear people saying that, as soon as the issue of homosexuality comes up, you will hear people saying, hey, let's not forget, heterosexual lust and adultery and fornication is just as bad, and sin is sin is sin, and we can't put that certain desire in a higher category of disobedience and on and on we could go, but obviously, well, first and foremost, not all sin is equal, that's why there were only certain sins in the

48:27

Old Covenant that required the death penalty, and even in the New Covenant, you're not going to typically have a person under church discipline because they may have eaten too much at the church picnic, or if they may have lost their temper playing volleyball.

48:47

A lot of people be in discipline. I'm sorry? I said there'd be a lot of people be in discipline.

48:52

Yes, right. So, but am I somewhere in the right ballpark there that this seems to be the two reasons?

49:02

Yeah, and this goes back to what I was saying a few moments ago about how our doctrinal standards are very pastoral, not just theological, and, you know, there's a shorter catechism question that says that some sins, by reason of several aggravations, are more heinous than others.

49:21

Your catechism goes further, what that even means that some sins are more heinous on the side of God than others, and clearly, as you've given by example, there are sins in the

49:34

Old Testament that warranted the death penalty. Blaspheming, homosexuality, adultery, you know, these things drew the ire of God's anger more so than others, but not only in the sin itself, but also in those who commit that sin.

49:55

So, for instance, King David, who broke, I was thinking about this the other day, you know, how many commandments did

50:02

David break when he sinned with Bathsheba?

50:08

You know, obviously you've got the 6th commandment, you've got the 7th commandment, but you also have the 5th commandment, you've got the 1st commandment, you've got the 9th commandment, there are a lot of things going on, and he drew a significant consequence, though he repented, from God, because A, those sins were heinous, but B, he was the king.

50:32

And so, clearly, not all sin is sin in that sense.

50:37

Yes, all sin deserves the same eternal, just response of the

50:43

Holy God. That is, of course, separation from Him for all eternity in Hell.

50:48

Whether it's, I stubbed my toe and I took the Lord's name in vain, thus breaking the 3rd commandment, or I went out and committed mass genocide.

50:58

Either one, they're all bad, they all deserve hell, but one, obviously, is far worse on a horizontal plane than the other.

51:08

Yeah, as far as being in existence in the life of a professing

51:14

Christian and member of the Church. That's correct. And, for instance, the issue of the equating of homosexual and heterosexual lust,

51:28

I do not believe is proper or biblical, because one is a misuse, the heterosexual lust is a misuse of something that is a

51:40

God -given gift. We are given the gift to be attracted to the opposite sex, and we sin when that goes outside the boundaries of marriage.

51:50

But, a homosexual desire and lust can never be viewed as acceptable.

51:56

It can never be redeemed in the sense that it is okay, as many evangelicals are now saying, as long as one doesn't consummate the thought and desire in a physical act.

52:09

And that's actually, as you were saying before about Roman Catholicism, they will ordain priests who admit before ordination that they will actually call themselves homosexual, but as long as they take a vow of chastity, that isn't a roadblock at all.

52:29

They think that that's completely fine and acceptable, as long as it remains locked within their thoughts and not become consummated physically.

52:39

But I'm going to have you pick up on that when we return from our midway break, as we're going into the middle of the show already.

52:45

And folks, please be patient with us. This is the longer -than -normal break that we have to have, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:53

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us to have this longer break in the middle, because the

52:59

FCC requires of them to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida.

53:04

They do so by airing their own public service announcements and other local things, while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

53:12

Please use the time wisely. Write down as much of the information that our advertisers provide, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to them, either by purchasing their products, using their services, supporting their parachurch organizations, or visiting their churches.

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But when you cannot do any of those things, please at least thank them for sponsoring this show.

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If indeed you love the show, and are grateful that there are people out there, and ministries out there, and businesses out there, and organizations out there, who are sharing the money that God has blessed them with, with us, so that we can continue to exist.

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So please at least thank our advertisers using their contact information. And send in your questions to Bill Hill.

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Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Attention all men in ministry leadership.

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01:10:37

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I believe I would love to have you email me the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Last but not least if you are not a member of a biblically faithful Christ honoring church no matter where you live on the planet earth

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I may be able to help you find a church near you because I have extensive lists spanning the globe and have helped many people in our audience find churches sometimes just within a few minutes from where they live.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Bill Hill pastor of Providence Presbyterian Church in Evansville Indiana.

01:14:06

We have been discussing a call to Presbyterians to return to their conservative, confessional and biblical heritage.

01:14:13

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

01:14:20

USA. I have an anonymous listener who says I cannot imagine that the

01:14:26

PCA will continue on as is without any kind of a major church split just as what happened with the

01:14:37

United Methodist Church having split recently with the global Methodist Church departing from the main denomination over the global Methodist Church's disagreement over leftist and apostate doctrines and practices.

01:14:55

Do you see this yourself occurring? I assume that's to me.

01:15:03

Yeah, I'm assuming because you're in that denomination. Why don't you answer the question and I can stay out of trouble.

01:15:10

You know something? No, I'm kidding. I'll answer. It's a good it's an honest assessment of things.

01:15:19

I mean, I don't know the background of the individual writing in and how much they do or she, he knows or doesn't know, of course, but assuming they know much in my opinion, and it's just mine,

01:15:38

I don't see unless something changes when it comes especially as it pertains to the whole side

01:15:45

B gay Christian ordaining men to the office of elder or deacon and who profess an identity as a homosexual whether they're practicing or not.

01:15:59

I don't I cannot see how a split can be avoided.

01:16:07

I hope I'm wrong. I've been in the PCA for well since 1988.

01:16:13

So nice. I'm sorry 1998. So you do the math. I'm no good at math 20 some odd years.

01:16:22

I do think this is a clear red line that I don't think anybody in my quote unquote camp want to see happen desire to happen long to happen but recognize that how can how can brothers walk together when they're not when they're not together.

01:16:50

I mean, this is a critically vital issue that cannot be we can't find middle ground.

01:16:59

I mean, we find middle ground on the days of creation. Let's say let's just use that.

01:17:05

I can labor side by side with my brothers in my Presbytery who might disagree with me over the days of creation.

01:17:11

I find as long as they're not evolutionist or theistic evolutionist

01:17:17

I know I can live with it even though I don't necessarily agree with them. I mean but this is not one of those subjects that this subject is so significant because it touches on so many different things that to ignore it and pretend like it's not going to cause a fracture is it would be just naive and the fact is it already has caused a fracture and frankly and I was thinking about this on the break just out of anticipating us a question of this nature

01:17:53

I guess I guess what troubles me most when it comes to this matter within the denomination that I've been a part of for almost a third of my life is that there is a select few people who are troubling the entire church and you know we take vows to maintain the peace and purity of the church as elders in the church and my appeal to them would be just very simple if you are absolutely convinced you're right whereas the majority of the denomination does not think you're right then instead of trouble the church why don't you go where you would be welcomed this is not about hatred it's not about that's a different discussion this is about troubling the church and distracting us from the mission of the church which is to make disciples

01:18:55

I don't think my congregation wants me to invest half my week in wrestling with and fighting constant battles within my denomination

01:19:05

I think they want me to pastor them but on the other hand I have a responsibility as a prospector to deal with these matters as well and to understand the issues so well enough that I can vote intelligently at whatever level

01:19:19

I'm voting and when a person finds that they're out of they're out of step with the church's the broader church's interpretation of a matter then it would be wiser to leave than to trouble the church if you think you're if you're convinced that the biblical view then follow the processes by which you can change our current health positions and doctrines then enact those processes but that's not what's been happening and and as a result it's caused great fracture and anybody who knows anything about this issue who thinks there's no fracture within the

01:20:02

PCA has not been paying attention and so do

01:20:08

I think a split is unavoidable if this issue does not get resolved yes

01:20:15

I do I don't see how it can be avoided and in fact it's already begun to happen in some circles already

01:20:24

PCA churches have left to go to other denominations and so forth so it's splintered off already in some at some level and it's really sad that I have to answer the question that way again it's my opinion maybe there's others that have a different opinion of that but I don't

01:20:45

I don't see how it's avoided we have Robert in Westchester County Long Island New York who says

01:20:54

I think that a split in the PCA is more than just inevitable I believe it is necessary I think it would be a good thing to split with those who are holding to aberrant views and dangerously bordering on absolute heresy than to remain in communion with them if they do not repent how do you respond to that issue yeah

01:21:18

I certainly am sympathetic to that opinion and I don't disagree but that's why

01:21:23

I said what I said earlier about those who that are troubling the church who are causing the dissension within the denomination it would be better for the broader church if they it's like someone said one time and I don't know who it was it was at a presbytery meeting recently and it wasn't my presbytery it was somebody else's presbytery but they were debating the overtures that were seeking to plug the holes and some of these problems that we're dealing with and it was great debate apparently on the floor and one of the conservative men simply said hey look we didn't start the fire now a la

01:22:07

Billy Joel okay you know the song that's immediately immediately popped into my head yeah well

01:22:14

I mean that's what he was referencing and he's right we didn't start the fire the conservative wing of the

01:22:21

PCA and again I'm not using these terms in a pejorative sense I'm just using them as they ought to be defined did not start this fight did not start the fire we did not we did not do this it came to our door and we're simply responding to it confessionally and biblically now again if those people who are so absolutely convinced that they're right who believe it's possible and even warranted to hold to a unnatural desire contrary contrary to nature contrary to God's commands and still maintain the office of elder or deacon then why why would they not leave why would they stay in the denomination that by and large based on the votes of the last year's

01:23:13

General Assembly and based on the votes of the overtures that went around last year although they did not succeed in getting two thirds they did succeed in getting more than 50 % of the denomination to approve it why would they stay and continue to trouble the church because now what are we doing at this year's

01:23:31

General Assembly what do you think the big subject is well it's the same subject that we've been dealing with the last two or three years at least it would seem to me that instead of troubling the church and bringing dissension in the church that it would be more mature frankly and better overall if they would leave but let's face it history church history if it's not if it's taught us anything it's taught us this that those who seek to maintain biblical fidelity in these very hot button issues are typically the ones that have to go it's sad but that's just the way it is and so while I'm sympathetic to the to the individual who thinks it's necessary I get that and it may come to that and they probably will come to that unless the

01:24:25

Lord intervenes and does a great work of changing our hearts and minds in this subject which is something that you know we cannot when we talk about a return to confessional fidelity a return to historic

01:24:39

Presbyterianism and and confessional confessionalism when we talk about these subjects we can never talk about them without the context of the fact that Christ is still the king and head of the church and it's not a surprise to him none of this is a surprise to him none of this caught him off guard and so we appeal to the

01:24:58

Savior to guide and lead his church he does it through means typically he does it through men who are fighting the good fight and trying to appeal to our confessional standards and and trying to correct and error and and using the processes that we that we have in place of course he he uses those means typically to do that but and he may just do that however when

01:25:25

I say that but I'm also quick to say but historically as we have watched denominations come and go throughout the ages typically what happens is once a denomination begins to go down this road it almost never comes back now

01:25:41

I can't think of one actually that has embraced these kinds of subjects that has that has done a

01:25:50

U -turn and has not gone right off the cliff into liberalism now maybe the

01:25:59

PCA will be the first maybe there is one out there that I'm not aware of but I don't know of one so obviously at some point men who are desiring to be faithful to the confession faithful to our historic understanding of Presbyterianism are at some point may have to just do that I mean that's how the

01:26:21

PCA started right I mean the PCA came out of a liberal situation in 1973 in which the

01:26:27

Southern Church the PCUS had begun to deny clear issues of inerrancy and infallibility and the authority of the

01:26:35

Bible and so the PCA started as a split right and so in fact every denomination has started almost functionally as a split of some kind over something some splits have been silly throughout our history but some have been very important and significant and as it turns out necessary and this would be in my view anyway a necessary move

01:27:04

I would prefer we do it together I would prefer that a mass of churches do it together if it ever comes to that but yeah that hasn't happened yet so I think you know people are hoping for they're hoping for the

01:27:30

U -turn and maybe it'll come but historically that's not happened so while I'm sympathetic to the listener

01:27:38

I am I agree actually but at the same time it does bewilder me a little bit why an individual who is so why individuals who are so adamant about their position on this subject why they find it necessary to stay within the denomination that generally does not does not agree and that is true

01:28:08

I mean you can say what you want about the PCA the fact of the matter is the majority of the denomination does not want nor agree with side

01:28:18

B gay Christianity within our officers so we get to be very clear about that in fairness to the church itself the broader church it just hasn't had the numbers necessary to close those doors yet maybe it'll happen it hasn't happened yet we have another anonymous listener who says

01:28:42

I'm remaining anonymous because I do not want to cause a rift unnecessarily with some of my close friends who are on the faculty of various seminaries but isn't it true that Greenville theological

01:29:00

Presbyterian seminary in Taylor South Carolina is the last remaining

01:29:06

Presbyterian seminary that holds to a young earth view tenaciously I highly admire that institution for that and many other reasons and I'm asking you because I know that you were amongst the student body there at one time and actually hosted their podcast

01:29:29

I don't know if they're the only one I mean

01:29:35

I just out of ignorance there's no way for me to answer that question you're right we are Greenville is historically has been and historically six day 24 hour view of creation week

01:29:49

I was that way before I ever went there so it wasn't as though they convinced me of that position they only strengthened it in my head that I already believed that before I ever went there but but as far as being the only one

01:30:03

I don't know it depends if you would consider Puritan reform theological seminary a

01:30:10

Presbyterian seminary I know that Joel Beaky the founder is in the heritage

01:30:16

Netherlands reform denomination which has a Presbyterian polity but but they don't identify themselves as Presbyterian with that word but that's the only other one that I'm aware of that is very strict about that view

01:30:33

I could be wrong as well yeah yeah I don't know I know historically the interpretation of Chapter 4 of the

01:30:42

Westminster standards it was great debate at the Westminster Assembly as to the as to the length as to the use of the word day the

01:30:50

Hebrew word yom and all this business and I could turn this into a very lengthy discussion

01:30:55

I'm not going to but I think that if I remember correctly in talking with Chad Van Dixon who is

01:31:03

I guess arguably the resident scholar the man who probably knows the most about the

01:31:11

Westminster Assembly and its debates and minutes and everything else he did his postdoctoral work I think in that area but anyway

01:31:19

I asked him that question we talked about it I think when I did interviewed him on the Confessing Your Hope podcast way back in the day and he indicated that the prevailing view of the

01:31:33

Assembly was that it was 6 literal days but in the interest of trying to find a consensus among the brothers there of which there were 120 some odd they did not specify they simply left it in the wording of Scripture so in the space of 6 days they left it that way to reach a consensus without specifying one view over against another view now that's how

01:32:06

I understand it but it appears based on the minutes and the debates of the

01:32:13

Assembly that the prevailing view was 6 literal days so you could be wrong of course but I mean

01:32:23

I don't think they are but anyway we have

01:32:28

Christopher in western Suffolk County Long Island who says how is it that the associate reform

01:32:37

Presbyterian church denomination seemingly has survived being opposed to liberalism while at the same time being open to women's ordination and actually practicing it yeah well

01:32:54

I'm not in the AARP I have friends who are so take this for what it's worth A.

01:33:01

they don't ordain elders women elders they only ordain women deacons and as far as I understand it that's evaluated on a church by church basis yeah

01:33:13

I'm fairly certain no no we're talking about the associate reform

01:33:20

Presbyterian church the oldest standing Presbyterian denomination in the United States as far as I know the only reason that I'm wondering about the accuracy of what you said is that a friend of mine

01:33:35

Dr. Larry Young who is near and dear to my heart he was the pastor who would visit me every week while I was in alcohol rehab in Boone North Carolina at Hebron Colony Ministries when

01:33:49

I tragically backslid into the sin of habitual drunkenness and Dr.

01:33:58

Young is a member of that denomination and he told me that that was a issue he disagreed with the ordination of women but he was saying he actually said that unfortunately some of the women are better preachers than the men but I'm pretty certain that they ordain women pastors not maybe predominantly but I think it exists if it exists it's unknown to me

01:34:28

I do know that they do allow for the ordination of women deacons

01:34:33

I'm willing to be corrected I'm not in that denomination so I'm not real up to speed with you know what they do but let's assume for the sake of argument that they do ordain women elders you know the question then of course becomes you know would you consider that within the confines of historic

01:34:55

Presbyterianism would you not identify that as a liberal move right which is really the theme of our discussion today right would not a reasonable

01:35:06

Christian who reasonably understands the Bible within the confines of their own polity or within the confines of historic

01:35:16

Presbyterianism not identify that as a liberal position and Jeff Kingswood who has been on this program he is pastor of Grace Presbyterian Church in Woodstock Ontario Canada and he told me that the

01:35:35

Canadian ARP denomination differs with the United States over that and that they have strictly a complementarian understanding of leadership and do not ordain women so Christopher I would say and you know when we're talking about you know returning to our historic

01:35:57

Presbyterianism you know if the denomination the

01:36:03

Presbyterian denomination is ordaining women elders they're already moving in a liberal direction whether you want to call them liberal or not that's up to you but they're certainly not conservative you can call it whatever you want to call it but you can't call it conservative and so you know like I said

01:36:24

I don't know that they do I do know about the Women Deacons but I've got friends that are on Facebook or probably listening to this losing their minds right now you know

01:36:37

I don't know of any ARP church that does now and like I said insofar as I know

01:36:45

I think it's only deacons and I think that's evaluated that is a session by session church by church decision

01:36:53

I do happen to know a friend of mine who's in the ARP has told me that that is something that they are either currently studying to eliminate or have eliminated it it's one or the other so well

01:37:09

Christopher thanks for the question and it seems that there's not a settled agreement here on whether or not that occurs but I know that we can't call them all liberal though even if it exists because even

01:37:25

Sinclair Ferguson when he was living in the United States pastored an ARP church in South Carolina so obviously he is far from I mean that's a fair point but when

01:37:37

I say it's either moving in a liberal direction I'm not talking about a case by case individual by individual basis

01:37:43

I'm talking about the broader church the greater church at large I'm talking about the official position of the church whether within the church holds that view or not is not my argument my only argument is if the denomination ordains women elders it seems to me that they're moving in a liberal direction whether or not there are men in that denomination that repudiate that view and are repulsed by that view is neither here or there my point is that the denomination tolerates it therefore it's moving in a liberal direction as a denomination not that it's necessarily that certain individuals therefore are also liberal only that the denomination itself is just like the

01:38:31

Roman church I mean you could say well the Roman church is apostate well it is officially you read their catechisms you read their the materials that came out of Trent, Vatican I, Vatican II they're apostate does that mean there are no born again

01:38:45

Christians within the Roman church I mean in order for you to answer that question you'd have to actually talk to every Roman Catholic on the face of the earth which you're not going to be able to do and so I usually just say

01:38:55

I can't answer that question because I certainly there probably are true

01:39:01

Christians within the Roman church but the church itself the broader church is apostate because they deny the central tenet of the gospel which is justification by faith alone that makes them apostate yeah if the council of Trent which is dogmatic meaning that can never be abolished if they anathematized anyone who believed in a protestant gospel then they're obviously adhering to a different gospel therefore we are yeah but obviously we would claim that we have a biblical gospel yeah but so do they and the point

01:39:45

I'm making is that we both can't be right right exactly of course so that's why I don't believe there can be any ecumenism with them because of that we have a different gospel we would assess that as a result of Trent their anathematizing of justification by faith alone they have inadvertently anathematized themselves and therefore have become as a church at quote unquote

01:40:11

I'm even reticent to use that word with them but be that as it may we would recognize that as an apostate view globally now again does that mean that every single

01:40:25

Roman Catholic that is apostate not necessarily right it just means that the church officially has become such right because of the position they have determined to take that's all

01:40:40

I'm saying when it comes to like you know you look at the PC USA you know we use the word Presbyterian but I sometimes choke over saying

01:40:49

Presbyterian in the same vein when I'm thinking of the USA because while they say they uphold the same doctrines while they say these things

01:40:59

I think we know and can conclude that as a denomination they've gone off the rails now does that mean that every single

01:41:06

PC USA minister is apostate no not necessarily does that mean that every single person that goes to the

01:41:12

PC USA church is apostate no not necessarily it just means officially their official stance on issues of significance is outside the beyond the pale of Scripture and beyond the pale of their own standards that makes them by definition apostate and therefore again

01:41:39

I'm not speaking about every individual just the church itself the broader church the large larger view well we're going to our final break and by the way

01:41:49

I've got some good news for whoever it was that was giving a glowing commendation of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary it may have been an anonymous listener

01:42:02

I can't remember right now but Dr. Joey Piper is going to be my guest God willing on Tuesday June 7th so make sure you mark that down on your calendar he is the president of Greenville actually president emeritus now of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary so mark the calendar and coming on for what's the topic we haven't settled on it yet okay sounds like somebody else

01:42:27

I know well don't go away folks and if you have a question send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:42:37

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back

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that's liyfc .org Welcome back

01:54:48

Pastor Bill Hill, if you could, before I go to any listener questions, I want to make sure that you have several minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air today

01:55:04

Yeah, I think just the main issue is historic Presbyterian has always been a concessional denomination and I would appeal to churches and pastors especially teach the

01:55:19

Westminster standards to their congregation, teach them faithfully both pastorally theologically.

01:55:25

Let's not treat them as some administrative tool to get ordained and then pretend like they don't exist anymore after that.

01:55:31

Now let's wrestle with some of the issues that they've been around for 500 years and there's a reason why they've stood the test of time because they are a faithful summary of what the

01:55:40

Bible says and I think we find that within our denominations, whether it's PCA or otherwise, we get in trouble, we get into these kinds of problems when we stop applying our confessional standards to the church at large and to the practice of the church.

01:55:56

So let's return back to those documents, those standards.

01:56:02

They're not infallible, we understand that, but we do believe that they are a faithful summary of the Bible. So let's return to them, let's use them both in their theology and practice and we find ourselves out of accord with those things, then we either need to make decisions regarding why we may be that way and make adjustments as necessary, but I think we've just got away from our confessional views and our standards in such a way that it's created these problems and not until we return to them will we see these problems begin to alleviate themselves and they will because our standards speak to these issues and we need to use them, not run away from them, not to be afraid of them.

01:56:51

Yeah, and the major confessions of the faith are not massive tomes either, they're fairly brief and they cover the main things that must be agreed upon by the faithful.

01:57:09

Of course, when I say must, I understand that there are brothers and sisters in Christ who are

01:57:14

Arminian and there would be teachings in these confessions, these Reformed confessions, that would militate against their views.

01:57:22

I'm not saying that this is not more specifically towards Reformed churches, but they're not incredibly massive tomes.

01:57:32

In fact, the reason why I think that you are seeing splits amongst

01:57:38

Reformed Baptists where you have some who are being more hypercritical of other confessional brethren is because they are saying now, some of these folks, that we all have to interpret the confession through the lenses of the framers and they will be adding things that aren't explicitly mentioned in the confessions that we should be following and there's disagreement over that.

01:58:07

I actually think it speaks very loudly that the framers who may have had certain views in regard to the extent of the impassibility issue and things like that.

01:58:22

It's interesting to me that they did not give a more fully detailed explanation of their views.

01:58:30

I think that they kept the confessions to a minimum for a reason.

01:58:36

They wanted to allow a certain level of disagreement amongst the faithful without causing church splits over every issue.

01:58:49

Do you want to say something before we go off the air? You said it like you were about to say something.

01:58:57

I'm sorry. I was just agreeing with you. Folks, remember that the Providence Presbyterian Church of Evansville, Indiana can be found at ProvidenceChurchE as in Evansville V as in Victory, Vasinvictory .com

01:59:12

That's ProvidenceChurchE, Vasinvictory Vasinvictory .com I want to thank you so much for being on the program.

01:59:20

You did an excellent job as always, Pastor Bill. I look forward to having you back. I want everybody listening to have a safe and happy and joyful and refreshing and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.

01:59:32

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.