February 11, 2022 with Dr. Kenneth R. Samples on “Have Christians Lost Their Minds? A Response to Dennis Prager”

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Dennis Prager’s Challenge to Evangelical Reading Habits

And I am thrilled to have back on the program somebody who I've interviewed numerous times. He's also a dear old friend dating back to the late 1980s. In fact, when he was still a panelist on the Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff long before Hank Hanegraaff's conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy.

And today, Kenneth R. Samples is a Reformed Anglican theologian. He's an author and senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe. Today we are going to address, Have Christians Lost Their Minds? A response to Dennis Prager's challenging observation that evangelicals do not read.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear old friend, Kenneth Samples.

Chris, it's so good to be with you. I remember the first time I went to New York City was with you, visiting you to Princeton and Dutch.

It's always a joy and a privilege to have you on. And today we are going to be addressing a very interesting statement by a non-believer, an Orthodox Jew, Dennis Prager. I'm assuming that most of our listeners are political conservatives, and if they are, they no doubt have heard of Dennis Prager.

Dennis Prager is a nationally beloved figure amongst conservatives. He's beloved. He's despised amongst liberals. And there was an interesting quote that I alluded to just moments ago by Dennis Prager.

It was actually something that you read in Kent Hughes' book, Disciples of a Godly Man, and the quote is, by Dennis Prager, one thing I noticed about evangelicals is they do not read. They do not read the Bible.

They do not read the great Christian thinkers. They have never heard of Aquinas. If they're Presbyterian, they've never read the founders of Presbyterianism. I do not understand that. As a Jew, that's confusing to me.

The commandment of study is so deep in Judaism that we immerse ourselves in study. God gave us a brain. Aren't we to use it in his service? When I walk into an evangelical Christian's home and see a total of 30 books, most of them bestsellers, I do not understand.

I have bookcases of Christian books, and I am a Jew. Why do I have more Christian books than 98 of the Christians in America? That is so bizarre to me. Now, I don't know how many of Dennis's friends are theologically reformed, but I think that if he had more friends that were reformed, he would find something quite different.

I mean, amongst reformed Christians, they tend to be avid readers. In fact, many tend to actually get too dangerously close to the border of idol worship when it comes to their libraries. So, while I would agree with Dennis's assessment, or at least say that it's likely true, in the wider spectrum of evangelicals, the broad spectrum, I think he is likely correct.

One of the reasons that I'm puzzled by, he said, if they're Presbyterian, they've never read the founders of Presbyterianism. I don't know if he's referring to his friends in the PCUSA or something, but most Presbyterians I know who are conservative, who are in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, who are in the Presbyterian Church in America, who are in the Free Presbyterian Church of North America and Ulster,.

And on and on.

We could go with the more conservative Presbyterian groups. They are known as avid readers. In fact, even in the evangelific world, the evangelical lightweight world, the publishers of garbage are making a fortune off these people.

I mean, T .D. Jakes has become quite a wealthy man through selling books to Christians who are totally ignorant of the true scriptures and the true gospel. So that also lends me to be cautious about agreeing with Dennis Prager.

But tell me about your response to Dennis Prager yourself there.

Yes, I think I would first of all say that the quote is pretty dated. It is an interview he gave to Believe in Nothing, but the date is 1990, and the reason I say that that's dated, I mean, it's 32 years ago.

Prager had a very popular radio program in Los Angeles. But in Los Angeles, Prager is a, and I remember I was on his program, On the Line, a very popular program in the 80s and the 90s. Walter Martin was on that program, honored a lot of well-educated people.

If Prager were asked that, he would model, I think he is talking about popular evangelicalism, and I think he's making a very powerful point. Evangelicals, you know, are robust. What I agree with, I mean, the Reformed Anglican tradition, Reformed Anglicanism.

And I would add Lutheranism and many other Presbyterians, Ivanbone, they know the West Institution, and they can quote, unquote, very powerful things. And that is that Judaism has a deep commitment to the life of the mind.

It's in the wisdom literature of the Old Testament,.

Ecclesiastes.

Christianity, of course, is also a bookish religion,.

If you will.

But I think that modern Creevangelicalism still struggles with the idea that somehow if I'm too bookish or if I'm too intelligent...

In fact, before I forget to say it, I just think it's an interesting story about my personal encounter with Dennis Prager. I've probably mentioned this on the program before, but just to say right off the bat, I really love Dennis Prager.

I think that he's a brilliant man. I love his stand for truth in the realm of biblical morals and social and political issues. Not saying that I agree with him every single time on political issues, but I find him fascinating and enjoyable to watch and hear and even entertaining.

But the first and only time I met Dennis face-to-face was at a staff meeting at a radio station where I worked for quite a number of years. And Dennis was invited to this Christian station to introduce himself to the staff because this Christian station and network was adding him to the lineup of programming.

Now, as much as I love Dennis, I was very concerned and even disturbed by the inclusion of his program because although I think it's very fitting for a political station and network, one that identified with Christianity gave me problems because you have a man who rejects Jesus Christ as God and Messiah having a program alongside some of the most beloved Christian thinkers in the world like John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul and on and on.

So I was probably the only one in the room that was disturbed by this. And Dennis gave a little speech and he said that many of his Jewish friends, when they heard that he was being included on this globally known Christian network as a new speaker, as a new program host, they were telling him, Dennis, don't do this.

They are going to try to convert you to Christianity. They are going to try to get you to abandon your Judaism. And Dennis Prager said in front of everybody there, I told them nothing could be further from the truth.

I was so delighted when the leaders of this network assured me, Dennis, we do not want you to become a Christian. We think that you as a Jew and conservative media serve a far more valuable role as a Jew because there are so few Jews in the media who are conservative.

And I remember my blood boiling sitting there because I knew that the people who said this to him, either they didn't know the gospel, they didn't know the requirements of repentance and faith in Christ for eternal life, or they cared much more about their ratings than Dennis's eternal soul.

And unfortunately, I have to admit that I was a coward because I knew I would have been terminated instantly if I said anything to that effect. I kept my mouth shut like a coward, and I regret that. But if Dennis, if he has read so widely in Christian literature, he should know that those who told him that they didn't want him to convert to Christianity are not representatives of the true Christian faith.

His library of Christian literature, especially good and ancient Christian literature, is as vast as he claims. He should have known that they were saying something that was injurious to his eternal soul.

Well, I think the points you're making are very important. It's certainly true that Dennis Prager is within a unique position and that there are worldview allies. Prager, Medved, here are two very popular Jewish, have a very strong, they're similar to, but you're absolutely not as good.

The question of one's relationship to God. Now I will tell you, however, I've also talked to Prager. And I remember Prager saying to me, he said, you know, I love you Christians. You always tell me I'm going to hell, but you still love me.

So he, I think Prager has grown. And this is an important point too, Chris. I think it's hard for people who are, I mean, I think you have to work at it, for example, if you are a Protestant to understand the Catholic view, if you're a Catholic, Eastern Orthodox view.

But I think it's also very challenging at times for non-Christians to appreciate Christianity. And of course, I can say as a teacher of the world's religions, you know, I had a student in my class afterwards, and he says, I'm a reformed Jew, but reformed Jew, which is in the much more liberal theological and political, never heard the word Messiah.

And I was stunned.

You know, again, lots of us think exactly as the old, I think Prager, you know, most Jews are secular, but this learning, that knowledge and wisdom are rooted in the fear of the Lord, which is an idea that permeates the Old Testament wisdom literature.

Even though Jews are primarily secular, they're enormously, I mean, they're only about 60. Part of it is, again, this idea that using your mind is normal and natural in your worship of God. And I think in the modern world, we've moved away from that.

And some Christian traditions, I think, have moved away from that, where, you know, in part of evangelicalism, if you're bookish, if you're heady, if you are intellectual, there's sometimes a suspicion that, well, maybe you're not really a person who has, you know, heart, faith.

And, you know, I'll be the first one to admit that knowledge can pop up. And I think probably even the Apostle Paul struggled with the idea. When I read 1 Corinthians 13, I realize there's more at stake than just a bunch of ideas.

I want to be of ideas. I want to be a caring, loving individual. I think Prager kind of provokes us here. And, you know, different points of view have their strengths and weaknesses. But I do appreciate Prager.

And I would say he's also courageous. I mean, people come after him, and he doesn't back down, and I appreciate that about him.

Oh, yeah, same reason. I very strongly and highly appreciate Ben Shapiro.

Right.

And I appreciate, oh, man, I'm getting Alzheimer's or something, the very famous Mormon conservative commentator and talk host.

What's his name?

That's right.

I can't think of his name. He's a very famous guy, white hair. Anyway, I don't know why I can't remember his name. But I appreciate those outside of the Christian faith who are right on the money on certain issues.

And champion them well. And if anybody can remember the name of that Mormon, please email it to me because I don't know. But anyway, what was it about Dennis Prager's comment that struck you the most?

The Life of the Mind as a Christian Calling

Yeah, I think what struck me the most is that it wasn't the issues of, look, I know Christians from lots of traditions. And frankly, Protestants I know. I think, though, what struck me again was this kind of idea that you could be a Christian, and you could be within a legitimate Christian denomination or tradition.

And you could accept the idea that somehow the life of the mind isn't important. And, you know, from a Christian point of view, this idea of bookishness, I mean, if you look back at Christian history, the early church, you know, the First Cuppish people, they were copying the Scripture, writing Catholic and doctoral influence.

If you look even at the church fathers, they were a very intellectual community. Whether you agreed with all of their views or not, then in the Middle Ages, you know, there is the, from the Greco-Roman worldview, and some people have described it as a dark age, but even in the Middle Ages, copying manuscripts and affirming education.

And so I think that if we don't, you know, there are 2 .2 billion Christians in the world. Of course, I'm being very generous there. I'm throwing all the branches of Christendom. I'm throwing all the denominations together.

But isn't it interesting, the Jews have 16 million, and Judaism, where Jews can be described either as people who adopt the religion of Judaism, or they can be described as a people group. You know, you look at Christianity, which is a worldwide faith, robust, and I think there's something we can learn from the Jewish tradition.

And again, I think because we come out of that tradition, we believe that the Old Testament is the Word of God. We believe Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. This idea that, you know, somehow reading and thinking and studying and being a thoughtful, reflective person, pleasing to God, you know, I have a passion.

I want to encourage people. What I say, Chris, is look, you know, just as there are moral values in Scripture, don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat, don't commit adultery, the Bible also talks about intellectual virtues.

The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians. Why? Because when Paul preached, they opened the biblical text, and they checked him out. Paul says, test all things, let the prophets speak. Listen to every word they say.

John, in his... Why? Because there are many false... I'm hoping that these kinds of comments are things that we can encourage people. And I want to love God with all of him, with my heart and my soul, my empathy, my passion.

Now, you've become fond of using a phrase, the life of the mind. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, thank you for asking. Chris, I think that the life of the mind is the idea that God is the God of... created this world, and he created this world with logos and namos, including John 1 .1, and the beginning was the logic of God.

He is the... of God.

Namos, the Creator. And I think that when we encounter truth... Now, of course, Jesus is Truth with a capital D. I am the Way, the Truth. But there are also lowercase truths. There's the truth of mathematics.

There's the truth of logic. There's the truth of... The life of the mind is what I call lifelong learning, and I think that's really the most important kind of learning. It's not getting a graduate degree so I can get a job, as valuable as that is, and I want people to have jobs and to be well-educated.

But I don't think it's even an advanced degree. I think the most important learning in life is being a lifelong learner, and the life of the mind is that God has given me this remarkable gift, my brain, my mind, and by learning and loving learning,.

I get a little...

Prager and others would say that wisdom and knowledge are rooted in reverence for God. Lifelong learning, lots of benefits from it.

We have to go to our first break right now, and if you care to join us with a question of your own for Ken Samples, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

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Reading, Discernment, and Intellectual Virtues

When it comes to pursuing the life of the mind, that phrase that we just mentioned before the break that you've become fond of using, tell us more about how you actually look like, what does that look like for a Christian to be pursuing the life of the mind?

Yeah, very important. You know, we live in a world, I think especially now, you know, we live in a world where you have lots of different perspectives. We've got pluralism and relativism, modernism, and all of these claims.

And of course, we live in a very controversial political time where you say the wrong thing, you can be canceled. And we have the woke mentality that is endlessly about social justice. Well, I think what the life of the mind can do, we don't want to be caught up into propaganda.

We don't want to be caught up into, you know, a harmful indoctrination. We don't want to buy into false... And therefore, it really is a daily priority, finding good books. For me, over the last couple of years, I just decided, other than my own study of the Bible, that I was going to read some of the great classical books.

I'm going to read again St. Augustine's Confessions. I'm going to read again Athanasius' On the Incarnation. I'm going to read again John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. And, you know, what's interesting is even those medieval, ancient reformations, you know, when it comes to education, there's enormous benefits.

Chris, just two points on this. There is a lot of discussion these days about equal opportunity for people. Well, rather than proposing critical race theory, how about getting... In 25 years, a minority family determined that the advantage that that gave for especially... economic ladder, that having lots of books in the home that they grew up in was as advantageous as having parents who had graduate degrees.

Wow.

So this idea of learning, I mean, three years of advancement. I mean, I wonder, you know, I'm old enough to remember the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s. I'm old enough to remember Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty.

I've been thinking about these ideas my whole life. And, Chris, I wonder what would happen if we were actually able to give a challenging education. And that will not only help them, I think, in terms of career choices, but it will also help them to think through bad philosophy.

You know, C .S. Lewis says, you know, you need philosophy if for no other reason to answer bad philosophy... time would be good political material or maybe it would be good cultural... daily priority to learn and to be wise.

...are those who have kind of an insider's knowledge. I mean, the reason Augustine could inside out, or my old mentor, Walter Martin, with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, because he had an insider's knowledge.

And I think that the mind has something suspicious. And again, you know, pride is a sin. And, you know, there shouldn't be... just because you have an advanced degree, you should not think that somehow you're better than other people.

But the life of the mind, I think, is important. It will help you discern how to be an American, how to live in this crazy world we're living in. And it will also raise up people who are very careful.

You and I, we talk a lot about the Reformation. John Calvin came out of Geneva, and one of the distinguishing features of a Reformed idea was that we want to hit the areas of influence. I think there are a lot of advantages to being a bookish person.

Amen.

In fact, I love the quote that is heard every single day on Iron Sharpens Iron radio. It's a quote by Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the great Reformed Baptist, or as he referred to himself as a particular Baptist back then in the 19th century.

The great Prince of Preachers from the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, England in the 19th century. In the ad for solid-ground-books .com, one of our most valuable advertisers on the program, in that ad is a quote by Spurgeon that I just absolutely love that says, The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

I love that. I always listen to that quote when I'm on your show and I say, Amen. Wonderful.

Amen.

What other practical benefits, I mean you've already said a lot, but what other practical benefits come out of this pursuing the life of the mind?

Yeah, lots. You're going to have trouble getting, you know, a founding. Not all of them were Christian, but you won't have to steal because you have a skill and you can earn a good income. Why are we here?

And there are other areas, and I touched on them briefly, but you know, again, I think we live at a time so much propaganda, there is so much yellow journalism. We're confronted with all kinds of stuff.

I used to think, I guess I was kind of naive, I used to think that only gray-haired old philosophy professors in elite schools believed in postmodernism, but what I've seen in the pandemic is, you know, those ideas that start out among philosophers, they do creep down into society, and so being a discerning, being a reflective individual, and again, it brings us back to this idea of the book.

I was reading an article by a New Testament scholar in ancient history,.

And Christianity,.

Kind of Christianity, is that it was bookish, that the manuscripts were being written. Of course, in those days, you know, what you were writing on papal and religions were not this idea, but there's, you know, an actual event in the history of Europe.

Now remember,.

You've got the Roman Empire, you've got the Reformation, it's so transformative. Some people would even say that without the Reformation, and particularly without Calvin, and the Reformed tradition, you may not have had the founding of America.

So ideas really do rule the world, and there's good ideas, and there's bad, but I think God is pleased, because it brings glory. So, you know, maybe the best live in a just society.

Yeah, and, you know, it's interesting that even the Muslims, and even in the Koran, they refer to Christians as people of the book.

Right.

Tell us about that phrase.

Christians as People of the Book

Yeah, again, this idea, you know, let's look at it, first of all, from the Old Testament period. I mean, you've got all of these pagan nations, and their pagan deities, and, you know, they get some things right.

I mean, you think of Plato and Aristotle, you know, everybody's made in the image of God. Everybody benefits from general revelation, and everybody benefits from common grace, and so it's not surprising that non-Christians get certain things right.

There's also the idea of the Logos, and even the Stoics, and Aristotelians, and the Platonists, they believed in this idea of a Logos, that there was this organizing principle in nature.

And you know,.

At the time of Christ, Chris, the rabbi, was pretty much expected to have the Old Testament down, largely by memory. Also, 613 laws. The Jewish people were an intellectual group, and the idea that they would go to the synagogue, and there would be the reading of the Biblical text, this is foreign to much of the other religions in the New Testament era.

It's the idea of people, they're Abrahamic, they try to trace their... And I think it's actually true that it's a strongly intellectual element. Unfortunately, I think that we're very thoughtful. You know, this idea of being bookish.

Now, you know, I'm not saying this is the most important... You know, my wife, she is not a Calvin lover. We're to love people. We are to be gracious people. To have warm hearts. But I don't think it ever helps to have...

You know,.

I think we need to be sharp. And again, I think the way you transform American society and ensure that all people have an opportunity. You can't guarantee outcome, but you can guarantee an opportunity.

And that's by emphasizing the idea.

That, you know, I mean,.

My neurologist friends, my neuroscientists that I know, they tell me that human brain is arguably the most complex mechanism in the known universe. And we all have one. God wants us to use it.

And we're going.

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