February 11, 2022 with Dr. Kenneth R. Samples on “Have Christians Lost Their Minds? A Response to Dennis Prager”

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday, February 11, 2022, and I am thrilled to have back on the program somebody who

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I've interviewed numerous times. He's also a dear old friend dating back to the late 1980s, in fact, when he was still a panelist on the

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Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff before, long before Hank Hanegraaff's conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy, and today

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Kenneth R. Samples is a Reformed Anglican theologian. He's an author and senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe.

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Today we are going to address, Have Christians Lost Their Minds? A response to Dennis Prager's challenging observation that evangelicals do not read, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear old friend,

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Kenneth Samples. Chris, it's so good to be with you. I remember the first time

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I went to New York City was with you, visiting you. I remember we went up to Princeton and visited

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Princeton's library, and so you're an old friend, and boy, it's been some time ago, so thank you for having me on.

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It's a real privilege. It's always a joy and a privilege to have you on. And today we are going to be addressing a very interesting statement by a non -believer, an

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Orthodox Jew, Dennis Prager. I'm assuming that most of our listeners are political conservatives, and if they are, they no doubt have heard of Dennis Prager.

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Dennis Prager is a nationally beloved figure amongst conservatives, he's beloved, he's despised amongst liberals, and there was an interesting quote that I alluded to just moments ago by Dennis Prager.

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It was actually something that you read in Kent Hughes' book, Disciples of a

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Godly Man, and the quote is, by Dennis Prager, One thing I noticed about evangelicals is they do not read.

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They do not read the Bible. They do not read the great Christian thinkers. They have never heard of Aquinas.

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If they're Presbyterian, they've never read the founders of Presbyterianism. I do not understand that.

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As a Jew, that's confusing to me. The commandment of study is so deep in Judaism that we immerse ourselves in study.

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God gave us a brain. Aren't we to use it in his service? When I walk into an evangelical

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Christian's home and see a total of 30 books, most of them bestsellers,

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I do not understand. I have bookcases of Christian books, and I am a

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Jew. Why do I have more Christian books than 98 % of the Christians in America?

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That is so bizarre to me. Now, I don't know how many of Dennis's friends are theologically reformed, but I think that if he had more friends that were reformed, he would find something quite different.

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I mean, amongst reformed Christians, they tend to be avid readers.

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In fact, many tend to actually get too dangerously close to the border of idol worship when it comes to their libraries.

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So while I would agree with Dennis's assessment, or at least say that it's likely true, in the wider spectrum of evangelicals, the broad spectrum,

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I think he is likely correct. One of the reasons that I'm puzzled by, he said, if they're

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Presbyterian, they've never read the founders of Presbyterianism. I don't know if he's referring to his friends in the

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PCUSA or something, but most Presbyterians I know who are conservative, who are in the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church, who are in the Presbyterian Church in America, who are in the

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Free Presbyterian Church of North America and Ulster, and on and on we could go with the more conservative

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Presbyterian groups. They are known as avid readers.

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In fact, even in the evangelifish world, the evangelical lightweight world, the publishers of garbage are making a fortune off these people.

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I mean, T .D. Jakes has become quite a wealthy man through selling books to Christians who are totally ignorant of the true scriptures and the true gospel, so that also lends me to be cautious about agreeing with Dennis Prager.

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But tell me about your response to Dennis Prager yourself there. Yes, I think

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I would first of all say that the court is pretty dated. It is an interview he gave to The Door, it was entitled

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The Civilization That Believed in Nothing, but the date is 1990, and the reason

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I say that that's dated, I mean it's 32 years ago, is Prager had a very popular radio program in Los Angeles.

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He is, as you said, a religious Jew. I remember the days when he was very much a moderate, so he's moved in his political thinking more toward the right, but in Los Angeles, Prager is a huge figure.

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He's a public intellectual, he comments on culture, politics, and of course he is a

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Jew. But I remember I was on his program, Religion on the Line, a very popular program in the 80s and the 90s.

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Walter Martin was on that program, and what I think is interesting,

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Chris, is that since 1990, he has encountered a lot of thoughtful, reflective, well -educated

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Christians. I suspect that if Prager were asked that question today, he would modify it.

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I think he is talking about popular evangelicalism, and I think he's making a very powerful point that lots of evangelicals don't have a robust life of the mind, but I agree with many of your points.

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I mean, I think, for example, that within the Reformed Presbyterian, and I would even say the

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Anglican tradition, Reformed Anglicanism, and I would add Lutheranism and many other traditions as well, there's a very deep commitment, not only to very serious

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Bible study, but the Presbyterians I've known, they know the

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Westminster Confession, they know the history of the Reformation, and for my friends who are

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Reformed Baptists, they know what they believe, they can quote their confession, so I think

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Prager, it's an altered quote, I think today he probably would modify it, and yet,

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Chris, I think he says some very powerful things, and that is, just one right at the top, is that Judaism, in the history of its faith, has a deep commitment to the life of the mind.

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It's in the wisdom literature of the Old Testament, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes. Christianity, of course, is also a bookish religion, if you will, but I think that modern

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Christianity, and American evangelicalism, still struggles with the idea that somehow if I'm too bookish, or if I'm too intelligent, that might get in the way of being spiritually mature, and I think that's a point that we need to correct.

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In fact, before I forget to say it, I just think it's an interesting story about my personal encounter with Dennis Prager, I've probably mentioned this on the program before, but just to say right off the bat,

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I really love Dennis Prager, I think that he's a brilliant man, I love his stand for truth in the realm of biblical morals, and social and political issues, not saying that I agree with him every single time on political issues, but I find him fascinating and enjoyable to watch and hear, and even entertaining.

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But, the first and only time I met Dennis face -to -face was at a staff meeting at a radio station where I worked for quite a number of years, and Dennis was invited to this

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Christian station to introduce himself to the staff, because this

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Christian station and network was adding him to the line of programming. Now, as much as I love

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Dennis, I was very concerned and even disturbed by the inclusion of his program, because although I think it's very fitting for a political station and network, one that identified with Christianity gave me problems, because you have a man who rejects

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Jesus Christ as God and Messiah, having a program alongside some of the most beloved

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Christian thinkers in the world, like John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul, and on and on. So, I was probably the only one in the room that was disturbed by this, and Dennis gave a little speech, and he said that many of his

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Jewish friends, when they heard that he was being included on this globally known

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Christian network as a new speaker, as a new program host, they were telling him,

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Dennis, don't do this. They are going to try to convert you to Christianity. They're going to try to get you to abandon your

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Judaism. And Dennis Prager said in front of everybody there, I told them nothing could be further from the truth.

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I was so delighted when the leaders of this network assured me, Dennis, we do not want you to become a

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Christian. We think that you, as a Jew in conservative media, serve a far more valuable role as a

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Jew, because there are so few Jews in the media who are conservative.

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And I remember my blood boiling sitting there, because I knew that the people who said this to him, either they didn't know the gospel, they didn't know the requirements of repentance and faith in Christ for eternal life, or they cared much more about their ratings than Dennis's eternal soul.

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And unfortunately, I have to admit that I was a coward, because I knew I would have been terminated instantly if I said anything to that effect.

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I kept my mouth shut like a coward, and I regret that.

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But if Dennis, if he has read so widely in Christian literature, he should know that those who told him that they didn't want him to convert to Christianity are not representatives of the true

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Christian faith. His library of Christian literature, especially good and ancient

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Christian literature, is as vast as he claims. He should have known that they were saying something that was injurious to his eternal soul.

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Well, I think the points you're making are very important points to make,

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Chris. I would say it's certainly true that Dennis Prager, being a religious

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Jew, most of the Jews in the world today are secular. He is a religious

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Jew. That distinguishes him somewhat. But he's conservative within the

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Jewish community, probably also places him in kind of a unique position. And certainly

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I can understand that there are worldview allies. You know, Prager, Medved, here are two very popular

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Jewish religious Jews, have very strong values that are similar to Christians and to conservative people as a whole.

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But you're absolutely right. As important as marriage is, as important as the sanctity of life is, as important as good economic policies are, the question of one's relationship to God stands far above any of those kinds of things.

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Now, I will tell you, however, I've also talked to Prager. And I remember Prager saying to me, he said, you know,

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I love you Christians. You always tell me I'm going to hell, but you still love me. So he,

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I think Prager has grown. And this is an important point too, Chris.

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I think it's hard for people who are not in the faith to understand the faith.

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I mean, I think you have to work at it, for example, if you are a

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Protestant, to understand the Catholic view. If you're a Catholic, to understand the

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Eastern Orthodox view. But I think it's also very challenging at times for non -Christians to appreciate the depth of Christianity, the different varieties of Christianity.

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And, of course, I can say as a teacher of the world's religions, you know, I had a student in my class, and I mentioned

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Messiah. And he came to me afterwards, and he says, I'm a Reformed Jew.

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Not Reformed Edi, but Reformed Jew, which is a much more liberal theological and political spirit.

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He said to me, I've never heard the word Messiah. And I was stunned. But, you know, again, lots of us think that Jews believe exactly as the

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Old Testament Jews do. So I think Prager has grown.

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But again, I think he reminds us that, you know, most

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Jews are secular, but this learning idea that learning is connected to the reverence of God, that knowledge and wisdom are rooted in the fear of the

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Lord, which is an idea that permeates the Old Testament wisdom literature. Even though Jews are primarily secular, they're enormously successful in life.

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Now, we're measuring success there probably economically. But if you look at the number of great attorneys, scientists, doctors,

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I mean, there are only about 16 million Jews in the world. Collectively, though, they're some of the brightest minds.

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And I think part of it is, again, this idea that using your mind is normal and natural in your worship of God.

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And I think in the modern world, we've moved away from that. And some Christian traditions,

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I think, have moved away from that. Where, you know, in part of evangelicalism, if you're bookish, if you're heady, if you are intellectual, there's sometimes a suspicion that, well, maybe you're not really a person who has, you know, heart, faith.

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And, you know, I'll be the first one to admit that knowledge can pop up. And I think probably even the

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Apostle Paul struggled with the idea. When I read 1 Corinthians 13, I realize there's more at stake than just a bunch of ideas.

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I want to be a thoughtful Christian. I love the world of ideas.

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But I also want to love people. I want to be a caring, loving individual.

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So I think Prager kind of provokes us here. And, you know, all of the different points of view have their strengths and weaknesses.

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But I do appreciate Prager. And I would say he's also courageous. I mean, people come after him, and he doesn't back down.

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And I appreciate that about him. Oh, yeah. Same reason I very strongly and highly appreciate

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Ben Shapiro. Right. And I appreciate...

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Oh, man, I'm getting Alzheimer's or something. The very famous Mormon conservative commentator and talk host.

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What's his name? That's right. I can't think of his name. He's a very famous guy. White hair. Anyway, I don't know why

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I can't remember his name. But I appreciate those outside of the Christian faith who are right on the money on certain issues and champion them well.

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And if anybody can remember the name of that Mormon, please email it to me because I don't know. Yeah. But anyway, what was it about Dennis Prager's comment that struck you the most?

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Yeah, I think what struck me the most is that it wasn't the issues of...

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Look, I know Christians from lots of traditions. And frankly, the

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Protestants I know, they're serious students of Scripture. And they are thoughtful people as well.

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They're well -read. I think, though, what struck me again was this kind of idea that you could be a

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Christian and you could be within a legitimate Christian denomination or tradition. And you could accept the idea that somehow the life of the mind isn't important.

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And from a Christian point of view, this idea of bookishness... I mean, if you look back at Christian history,

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Chris, the early Church, the first couple centuries, they were a bookish people.

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They were copying the Scriptures. They were writing texts that were of apologetic and doctrinal influence.

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If you look even at the Church Fathers, they were a very intellectual community, whether you agreed with all of their views or not.

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Then in the Middle Ages, you know, there is the departure from the

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Greco -Roman worldview. And some people have described it as a dark age. But even in the

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Middle Ages, there are Catholic monks who are copying manuscripts and affirming education.

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And so I think that if we don't... You know, there are 2 .2 billion Christians in the world.

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Of course, I'm being very generous there. I'm throwing all the branches of Christendom, I'm throwing all the denominations together.

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But isn't it interesting? The Jews have 16 million persons.

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And Judaism, where Jews can be described either as people who adopt the religion of Judaism, or they can be described as a people group.

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But, you know, you look at Christianity, which is a worldwide faith that has very robust presentations.

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And I think there's something we can learn from the Jewish tradition. And again,

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I think because we come out of that tradition, we believe that the Old Testament is the

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Word of God. We believe Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. This idea that, you know, somehow reading and thinking and studying and being a thoughtful, reflective person that somehow that's not pleasing to God, that bothers me a little bit.

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And so, you know, I have a passion. I want to encourage people. What I say,

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Chris, is, look, you know, just as there are moral values in Scripture. Don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat, don't commit adultery.

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The Bible also talks about intellectual virtues. The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians. Why? Because when

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Paul preached, they opened the biblical text and they checked him out. Paul says, test all things, let the prophets speak, listen to every word they say.

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John, in his epistle, don't believe things too quickly. Why? Because there are many false prophets who've gone out into the world.

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So I'm hoping that these kinds of comments are things that we can encourage people.

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And I want to love God with all of my abilities. I want to please Him with my heart and my soul, my empathy, my passion for people who are hurting, but also that I'm a thoughtful, reflective person.

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Now, you've become fond of using a phrase, the life of the mind. What do you mean by that? Yeah, thank you for asking.

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Chris, I think that the life of the mind is the idea that God is the

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God of truth. And God created this world, and He created this world with logos and nomos, to the

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Greek. He created it with logic, with word. In fact,

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I remember one Presbyterian theologian translating John 1 .1, and the beginning was logic.

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Jesus is the logic of God. He's the reason, the speech, the rationality of God.

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Nomos, laws. So our orderly world, our designed world, our fine -tuned world that we live in, it comes from the mind of God.

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It comes from the Creator. And I think that when we encounter truth, now, of course, Jesus is truth with a capital

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D. I am the way, the truth, and the life. But there are also lowercase truths.

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There's the truth of mathematics. There's the truth of logic. There's the truth of science.

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There's the truth of literature. There's the truth of the aesthetic areas of life.

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The life of the mind is what I call lifelong learning. And I think that's really the most important kind of learning.

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It's not getting a graduate degree so I can get a job, as valuable as that is. And I want people to have jobs and to be well -educated.

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But I don't think it's even an advanced degree. I think the most important learning in life is being a lifelong learner.

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And the life of the mind is that God has given me this remarkable gift, my brain, my mind.

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And by learning and loving learning, I get a little closer to that God that Prager and others would say in the

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Old Testament that wisdom and knowledge are rooted in reverence for God.

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So lifelong learning, lots of benefits from it. We have to go to our first break right now.

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And if you care to join us with a question of your own for Ken Samples, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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We are interviewing if you just tuned us in we're interviewing today Kenneth R. Samples and Ken Samples is a

37:35

Reformed Anglican theologian and philosopher. He's an author and senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe.

37:43

We are addressing have Christians lost their minds? A response to Dennis Prager's challenging observation that evangelicals do not read.

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And if you have a question for Ken Samples our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

37:57

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

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When it comes to pursuing the life of the mind that phrase that we just mentioned before the break that you've become fond of using tell us more about how you actually look like what does that look like for a

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Christian to be pursuing the life of the mind? Yeah very important topic

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Chris you know we live in a world I think especially now you know we live in a world where you have lots of different perspectives we've got pluralism and relativism and postmodernism and all of these claims and of course we live in a very controversial political time where you say the wrong thing you can be cancelled and we have the woke mentality that talks endlessly about social justice.

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Well I think what the life of the mind can do is it can bring you back to a biblical term and that's being a discerning careful thinker

39:14

I mean we don't want to be caught up into propaganda we don't want to be caught up into you know a harmful indoctrination we don't want to buy into false conspiracy thinking and therefore it is it really is a daily priority you know finding people who careful in their thinking and you know when it comes to education there's enormous benefits

40:14

Chris just two points on this you know there is a lot of discussion these days as to whether we live in a country where there is equal opportunity for people well rather than proposing critical race theory or wokism how about educating people how about getting kids who come from lower economic backgrounds

40:42

I mean to read is the foundation of all learning and if a child can read well that opens up all kinds of doors going to elite schools getting good jobs it really helps in fact there was a study this study was a this was a doozy of a study

41:06

I think it lasted more than 25 years they looked at poverty and they looked at advancement for kids that came from minority families and they determined that kids that had lots of books in the home let's say 500 books that the advantage that that gave for especially having parents who were low on the socioeconomic ladder that having lots of books in the home that they grew up in was as advantageous as having parents who had graduate degrees so this idea of learning

41:47

I mean three years of advancement I mean I wonder you know

41:52

I'm old enough to remember the civil rights movement in the 60s

41:57

I'm old enough to remember Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty I've been thinking about these ideas my whole life and Chris I wonder what would happen if we were actually able to give all people in our country a competitive a challenging education and that will not only help them

42:22

I think in terms of career choices but it will also help them to think through bad philosophy you know

42:29

C .S. Lewis says you know you need philosophy for no other reason to answer bad philosophy and so I think that having a good library exposing your kids and as adults what if as part of your daily life you had a daily time where you would read good material maybe it would be good political material or maybe it would be good cultural areas but that you would have a daily priority to learn and to be wise and as well

43:12

Christian apologetics we need Christians who can respond to the challenges of the day and the best apologists are those who have kind of an insider's knowledge

43:24

I mean the reason Augustine could offer such a refutation of the Greco -Roman world is he knew it inside out my old

43:34

Bible teacher my old mentor Walter Martin was so skilled at dealing with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses because he had an insider's knowledge and I think that the mind should be seen not something suspicious and again you know pride is a sin and you know there shouldn't be just because you have an advanced degree you should not think that somehow you're better than other people but the life of the mind

44:07

I think is important it will help you discern how to be an American how to live in this crazy world we're living in and it will also raise up people who are very careful you and I we talk a lot about the

44:21

Reformation John Calvin came out of Geneva and one of the distinguishing features of a reformed

44:31

Protestantism different than Lutheran different than the Anabaptists this reformed idea was that we want to hit the areas of influence and learning and so I think there are a lot of advantages to being a bookish person

44:48

Amen. In fact I love the quote that is heard every single day on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio it's a quote by Charles Haddon Spurgeon the great reformed

45:00

Baptist or as he referred to himself as a particular Baptist back then in the 19th century the great

45:06

Prince of Preachers from the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London England in the 19th century in the ad for solid -ground -books .com

45:18

one of our most valuable advertisers on the program in that ad is a quote by Spurgeon that I just absolutely love that says the man who never reads will never be read.

45:31

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

45:43

I love that I always listen to that quote when I'm on your show and I say Amen. Wonderful.

45:50

Amen. What other practical benefits I mean you've already said a lot but what other practical benefits come out of this pursuing the life of the mind?

46:03

Yeah. Lots of them. Again if you can't read you're going to have trouble in school.

46:11

You're going to have trouble getting competitive jobs. So you know our founding fathers they were not all of them were

46:19

Christian but they were wise. Jefferson Adams various others said that the benefits of a good education is that it'll help you compete economically.

46:33

You won't have to steal because you have a skill and you can earn a good income. You can also serve.

46:40

You have civic duties. You can sit on a jury. You can vote. And you know

46:46

Jefferson also said you can think about the deep questions of life. Who are we?

46:51

Why are we here? What is the meaning of my life? And there are other areas.

46:57

And I touched on them briefly but you know again I think we live at a time where there's so much propaganda.

47:06

There is so much yellow journalism. We're confronted with all kinds of stuff.

47:12

I used to think I guess I was kind of naive. I used to think that only gray haired old philosophy professors in elite schools believed in postmodernism.

47:23

But what I've seen in the pandemic is you know those ideas that start out among philosophers they do creep down into society.

47:32

And so being a discerning, being a reflective individual and again it brings us back to this idea of the book.

47:40

I was reading an article by a New Testament scholar, an ancient historian and he said that the difference between early

47:53

Christianity, kind of primitive first, second, third, fourth century Christianity is that it was bookish.

48:00

That the manuscripts were copied. That there were books being written. Of course in those days you were writing on papyri.

48:08

It was difficult. You know there's no Xerox copy. There's no way of doing that.

48:14

That idea of copying comes around at the Reformation time and Luther's ideas are spread throughout

48:21

Europe. But the article said this, that the Greco -Roman religions were not bookish religions.

48:28

They had temples and they had devotions to the gods. But they didn't have this idea that there's a sacred text.

48:37

A final authority. You know I think that the

48:43

Protestant Reformation, many historians say that it is the most influential event in the history of Europe.

48:50

Now remember you've got the Roman Empire. You've got a lot of events. The Protestant Reformation is so transformative.

48:58

Some people would even say that without the Reformation and particularly without Calvin and the

49:06

Reformed tradition you may not have had the founding of America. So ideas really do rule the world.

49:14

And there's good ideas and there's bad ideas. But I think

49:20

God is pleased when his children use their faculties to discern truth and read and study.

49:29

I think that brings glory to God. Just as it brings glory to do the good works that God calls us to.

49:38

So you know maybe the best thing to make sure that we live in a just society is buy the kids some books.

49:47

Yeah and you know it's interesting that even the Muslims and even in the

49:53

Quran, they refer to Christians as people of the book.

50:00

Right. Tell us about that phrase. Yeah again this idea you know let's look at it first of all from the

50:10

Old Testament period. I mean you've got all of these pagan nations and their pagan deities and you know they get some things right.

50:20

I mean you think of Plato and Aristotle, you know everybody's made in the image of God.

50:27

Everybody benefits from general revelation and everybody benefits from common grace.

50:33

And so it's not surprising that non -Christians get certain things right. There's also the idea of the

50:40

Logos and even the Stoics and Aristotelians and the Platonists, they believed in this idea of the

50:46

Logos that there was this organizing principle in nature. But what's unique about the

50:52

Jews is the Torah, the Tanakh, their holy writing, that this is a book that's been given to them.

51:02

And you know at the time of Christ, Chris the rabbi was pretty much expected to have the

51:08

Old Testament down largely by memory. Also 613 laws.

51:13

The Jewish people were an intellectual group, and the idea that they would go to the synagogue and there would be the reading of the biblical text, this is foreign to much of the other religions.

51:29

In the New Testament era, it's picked up. You almost immediately have early church fathers writing texts.

51:40

You've got creedal statements that are recited during church service.

51:46

You have a confessional phase. This idea of people of the book, and you're right, even

51:52

Muslims pick up this idea. You know, they like to think that they're Abrahamic.

51:59

They try to trace their lineage back. And I think it's actually true that in many places in the

52:07

Islamic world, there is an idea of a strongly intellectual element.

52:13

Unfortunately, I think that much of Islamic theology has become taken up by theological lawyers, rather than some of the early philosophers in their tradition that were very thoughtful.

52:30

You know, this idea of being bookish. Now, you know, I'm not saying this is the most important thing in the world.

52:38

You know, my wife, she is not terribly bookish, but my wife exudes Christian virtues of empathy.

52:46

She is a real people person. I've learned a lot from her.

52:52

I look at her and try to learn from her and love her. I'm not saying that you've got to have a degree.

53:02

You know, I think that when you go to 1 Corinthians 13, you realize that we're to love people, we're to be gracious people, to have warm hearts.

53:13

But I don't think that ever helps to have, you know, to have dull minds. I think we need to be sharp and, again,

53:24

I think the way you transform American society and ensure that all people have an opportunity, you can't guarantee outcome, but you can guarantee an opportunity.

53:41

And that's by emphasizing the idea that, you know, I mean, my neurologist friends, my neuroscientists that I know, they tell me that human brain is arguably the most complex mechanism in the known universe.

53:58

And we all have one. I think Prager is right. God wants us to use it.

54:04

And we're going to our midway break now, folks. Please be patient, because, as always, the midway break in the middle of the show is the longer of the breaks, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

54:16

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54:30

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54:38

So, please use this time wisely, write down as much of the information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, and respond to our advertisers.

54:47

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So, please, respond to them, thank them for sponsoring our show, and also send in questions to Kenneth R. Samples on the

55:28

Life of the Mind, and our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

55:34

We'll be right back after these messages. Don't go away. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

55:52

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many of those scholars and pastors in the

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

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Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the

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Hope to see you there. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

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And we do have a fellow Anglican who has sent you an email, a question,

01:13:18

Ken. And I'm looking for that question right now. We have

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Donald in Jacksonville, North Carolina. He says,

01:13:31

Chris billed you as a reformed Anglican. Can you give an executive summary of that?

01:13:39

I'm a Cranmerian Calvinist for 42 years, so know the landscape.

01:13:45

A brief answer will let me know where you are coming from. Yeah, I grew up as kind of a nominal

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Roman Catholic. I didn't understand Christianity and certainly didn't understand Catholicism.

01:14:00

When I was about 20 years old, I went through a real crisis in our family.

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My older brother, Frank, who was a person I loved and admired, had serious problems with psychiatric issues and drug issues and was in prison for a period and ended up taking his life.

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And that was a tough time for me and my family, and I really started looking for answers.

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And my sister had become a Christian. She gave me a copy of Near Christianity by C .S.

01:14:41

Lewis. The only thing I knew was the Catholic faith, so I began going to Mass and talking with people.

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Not long after that, I came across Walter Martin, and Martin was really an extraordinary

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Christian thinker and Bible teacher. I became an evangelical

01:15:03

Protestant at that stage of my life, and I was educated with the

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Lutheran church, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. One of my degrees is from Concordia.

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I took a graduate degree from Talbot, Iola University here in Southern California.

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So I have been a member of a conservative Lutheran church. I was for a long time a member of a

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Reformed congregation, the URC, United Reformed Church. And then a few years ago,

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I began exploring the idea of, I wanted more of a confessional liturgical point of view.

01:15:49

And I will tell you, I think the Book of Common Prayer is one of the great texts of historic

01:15:58

Christianity. J. I. Packer used to call it the Bible arranged for worship.

01:16:07

And in the Book of Common Prayer, and of course I became a member of a church here in Southern California, Christ Chapel.

01:16:16

It is a... Let's see, I'm looking at my thing here.

01:16:22

It is a Reformed Episcopal church with ties to the

01:16:30

Anglican Church of North America. So we are conservative. Unfortunately, the

01:16:38

Episcopal Church in America has not only lost its mind, it's lost its soul. But there are conservative

01:16:45

Anglicans, and my pedigree, I'm Reformed.

01:16:51

My favorite Christian thinker outside of the Biblical authors is Saint Augustine. So I love,

01:16:59

I appreciate the Anglican Church. I think it combines five things.

01:17:04

It traces back to the Apostolic Church. It holds

01:17:10

Scripture as the supreme authority in the Thirty -Nine Articles. It affirms an ancient

01:17:16

Christianity in the creeds and the early councils. It's Reformed.

01:17:21

It's tied to the English Reformation and has deep ties long before Henry VIII.

01:17:29

And it's evangelical in the sense that we prize the Gospel. So there are lots of very conservative

01:17:36

Anglicans out there. Sometimes their churches are small because they've had to leave the liberal churches, and that's unfortunate.

01:17:49

But I love the worship there, and I love the liturgy. And if I can be candid, it reminds me a little bit of being

01:17:58

Catholic, but also of being Protestant. I kind of like the mix there.

01:18:04

Well, thank you, Donald. And keep listening, and keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:18:11

I happen to know that Donald is a faithful listener of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and especially when we interview

01:18:18

Anglicans, he promotes the show very widely. And he also is a great admirer of one of my favorite guests, who is a

01:18:30

Reformed scholar, not Anglican. So I know that he is one of our faithful friends who seems to delight in letting others know about our existence.

01:18:50

Oh, yes, I'm sorry. He has one more question that I want to ask. And if I could find that again.

01:18:56

I looked away, and it's gone. Here it is. Also, Rabbi Prager, is he a rabbi?

01:19:04

I don't know about that. He's not a rabbi. Okay, I didn't think so. But we'll just say

01:19:10

Dennis Prager complained about evangelical illiteracy.

01:19:17

Well, what of Christendom widely, just evangelicals only, or even ignorance amongst

01:19:23

Anglicans and Episcopalians, yet being moneyed and professionals but not theologically literate?

01:19:31

Well, of course, if there's going to be evangelical illiteracy, when there is an outward admiration, at least, of the

01:19:39

Scriptures, you're going to have even more illiteracy about the truth, that is, amongst those in the wider camp, and that would include liberals and apostates, even if they are brilliant scholars.

01:19:56

They're not going to be necessarily literate when it comes to biblically sound Christian literature.

01:20:02

Go ahead, Ken. Yes. Well, look, there is quite a range in evangelicalism.

01:20:12

In fact, the word is getting harder and harder to define, but there is a popular expression of evangelicalism.

01:20:20

There have been a number of books over the last 30 or 40 years that have talked about the scandal of the evangelical mind.

01:20:31

My friend J .P. Moreland, who is a professor here at Biola, talked about loving, the need to love

01:20:36

God with all of your mind. I think Prager is touching on a popular form, but I also think it's probably true of America.

01:20:46

America is a nation, I saw a study recently comparing the

01:20:52

United Kingdom to America. The average home in Britain has 150 books.

01:21:00

The average home in America has about 111. You know,

01:21:06

America, I think, needs a revival, not only in the gospel, but a revival in the idea of being serious pursuers of truth.

01:21:18

And you can certainly find in other traditions that there is illiteracy, that there are intellectual areas that need shoring up.

01:21:30

But I would bring you back to the idea. Here's a controversial idea.

01:21:37

You look at the Supreme Court. You've got seven Catholics and you've got two

01:21:42

Jews, and you have no evangelicals. Now, don't get me wrong, there are probably a lot of reasons for that.

01:21:50

For example, there are quite a few governors that are evangelicals. Maybe evangelicals would rather be members of the

01:22:00

House of Representatives. Maybe they want to pursue government. Also, Supreme Court justices are often picked from schools like Harvard and Yale.

01:22:13

Evangelicals may want to go to a much more conservative school. There are a lot of reasons for that.

01:22:19

But I would say this, and I'm an ex -Catholic, and so is Chris, I think that the

01:22:27

Catholic Church has lots of challenges both doctrinally, and I heard one scholar say that the sexual priest scandal may be the biggest crisis in the

01:22:39

Catholic Church since the time of the Reformation. Now, that's a big claim, but I would tell you this, that Catholics have often a very worldview -oriented faith.

01:22:51

And all I mean by that is Catholics have thought about culture, they've thought about learning, they've thought about society, and so are

01:23:00

Jewish people. And part of the challenge, Chris, too, is that evangelicalism is largely a response to the apostasy of the mainline churches.

01:23:10

So, by the 19th century, when the higher liberal theories of the Bible just dominated, you know, liberal

01:23:17

Presbyterianism, liberal Lutheranism, liberal Methodism, evangelicals had to start their own schools and their own churches, and so to some degree, they're trying to catch up.

01:23:31

You know, there are many wonderful evangelical folks, and I certainly don't want to give anybody the impression of, you know, being snobby, looking down on people.

01:23:47

There are many people that are not well -educated who I could learn a great deal from in terms of how they live their life and how they relate to people.

01:23:57

I'm simply saying the mind is too important. You know, remember that commercial? I've seen it almost my whole life.

01:24:04

National Negro College Fund. United Negro College Fund. It's a terrible thing to waste.

01:24:09

Yeah. Yes. Excellent slogan.

01:24:15

And by the way, I could be wrong. You said that there are no evangelicals on the Supreme Court. Isn't John Roberts from a

01:24:22

Pentecostal background? I think he's a Roman Catholic. Oh. I don't know why

01:24:28

I thought he was... I don't know why I thought... Now, there's one, a fairly recent justice,

01:24:34

I'm trying to think of his name, Groshel, something like that. He was Catholic, but I think he attends an

01:24:40

Anglican church. So, that was kind of the statistics I've looked at.

01:24:47

Okay. Well, thanks, Donald. Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We have

01:24:54

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York. He said, Chris, the

01:24:59

Mormon political conservative that you forgot his name is

01:25:05

Glenn Beck. Yes. Oh! I don't know how I could... I forget that. I don't know how

01:25:11

I could forget that name. But I would actually ask my listeners to pray that one day

01:25:18

I can successfully get Glenn Beck on my show to discuss the differences that he has in his religion with biblical

01:25:31

Christianity. I wouldn't be fair to have a Christian apologist debate him because Glenn makes no pretense about being a theologian or scholar, but as far as religion is concerned.

01:25:45

But he makes dangerous claims. As much as I love him and shout amen to a lot of his political views, he makes dangerous claims about Mormonism being no different than evangelical

01:26:04

Christianity with some minor differences. And that's as far from the truth as can possibly be.

01:26:11

In fact, I don't even know if there is a religion more 180 degrees opposite to Christianity than Mormonism, other than the fact that they use the name

01:26:21

Jesus Christ, and they claim an allegiance to the Bible, although it's a subordinate in their minds, subordinate source of biblical truth than the

01:26:33

Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Grace Price and the other Mormon documents that I can't think of right now.

01:26:41

But I would love to have him engage in at least a dialogue with a capable Christian to really reveal that Glenn either doesn't know what he's talking about in that regard about Mormonism just being a

01:26:58

Christian denomination, or if he's intentionally deceiving people by making those claims.

01:27:04

But anyway, I appreciate your prayer about that. And let's see here, we have another listener.

01:27:13

We have RJ in White Plains, New York. And he says,

01:27:22

Why is it, you think, that it seems that Reformed Christians are very literate when it comes to the finest and of the heroes of the faith and the creeds and confessions, but yet there is still nonetheless so many conflicts, confrontations, divisions, infighting, and even wars going on amongst

01:27:48

Reformed Christians? Yeah, that's a compliment to that question.

01:27:56

And I have thought about that. I think here are some reasons why

01:28:01

I think that that is the case. First of all, I think to be a Reformed Christian, you have to kind of rethink

01:28:09

Christianity somewhat. That is, there are certain distinctives in a Reformed view that are unique.

01:28:18

And so I think that many people are attracted to Reformed theology, whether it's the conservative

01:28:27

Presbyterian or the conservative Dutch Reformed or, you know, our Dutch Calvinistic Baptist friends.

01:28:36

So I think that's one thing, that the Reformed faith, it requires you to think theologically.

01:28:44

I think there are other historical elements that come out of it, however. I remember one historian saying that right about the time of the

01:28:53

Civil War that there were a couple hundred different colleges already in the colony, in America, and most of them were

01:29:06

Reformed. I think that there is a real intellectual element there, and I think that Calvin and other

01:29:17

Reformed leaders that came out of the Protestant Reformation, they intentionally tried to reach centers of learning, centers of influence.

01:29:27

And I thought that that was very reflective. They wanted to affect the educated, and they wanted to affect economic issues and political issues.

01:29:39

So I think it's true. Every time I've ever been in a Reformed church, Calvinists are a group of Christian people that care a lot about truth, and they read their

01:29:51

Bibles, and they think theologically, and I think that's a real strength of the tradition.

01:29:58

And because we are all sinners, we all fall far short of the glory of God.

01:30:08

I think even the best of our attributes, like being meticulous about theological and doctrinal accuracy, by scrutinizing all literature that we read, by being very careful in exegeting the

01:30:31

Scriptures, even though those are enormous reasons to applaud

01:30:37

Reformed Christians, because we're sinners, those very things can become tainted, and the very teachings of the

01:30:45

Reformed faith that are intended to humble a sinner, to humble men, unfortunately, in the hands of sinners, very often they use these things to exalt them to pride.

01:31:01

I think you're right on target, Chris. I mean, I think that Reformed people take truth very seriously, and sometimes their intensity of truth doesn't allow them to realize the importance of other things like unity and charity, and I couldn't agree with you more.

01:31:24

I think that's the point, and again, I'm Reformed. I'm an Anglican. You're kind of muffled, brother.

01:31:31

I don't know if you've taken your mouth away from your phone or something. Okay, yeah, maybe

01:31:36

I'm breaking up here a little bit, but I think you're right on target. Yes, and let's face it, idol worship,

01:31:46

I'm not talking about images of stone and painted icons and so forth, and paintings and so forth.

01:31:57

I'm not talking about that, but idol worship, unfortunately, does exist amongst the Reformed in regard to heroes of the faith.

01:32:04

We should have heroes. In fact, I think that goes hand in hand with what

01:32:11

Charles Spurgeon's quote is intended to mean. Those who do not use the thoughts of other men's brains have proved that they have no brains of their own.

01:32:20

We should have heroes, but there are people that unfortunately idolize their heroes to a dangerous point where their non - canonical writings are viewed on an equal par or sometimes even higher than Scripture.

01:32:41

And of course, I'm assuming that's unconsciously. I don't believe that they're intentionally viewing them and exalting those writings that high.

01:32:50

I'll give you an example. I know that you are a Pato Baptist, Ken, and I have friends that were

01:32:58

Reformed Baptists who became Presbyterian and have changed their view of baptism to a

01:33:06

Pato Baptist conviction. Now, I'm sure even you and right -thinking

01:33:13

Pato Baptist listening would be concerned, if not disturbed, by the fact that some of those dear friends of mine have said in regard to that issue, in regard to their switch of opinion, well,

01:33:29

John Calvin and John Owen and Jonathan Edwards and Martin Luther can't be wrong.

01:33:38

They can't all be wrong on this. Now, that's a dangerous reason for believing anything. And there may likely be people out there that have become

01:33:50

Credo Baptists or Believer Only Baptists, Believer Only Baptism Baptists, Christians, who have become

01:34:00

Baptists because Charles Spurgeon was a Baptist. You know, that's equally wrong. So, am

01:34:06

I right that the Scriptures should be driving our theological convictions, not our heroes?

01:34:12

I think that that's exactly right. I mean, I am a...

01:34:19

You know, St. Augustine has a very significant influence on me, but the reality is that I think one of the things

01:34:30

I most enjoy about reading Augustine, I mean, the other day I was rereading the Confession, so I counted all of the references to Scripture, and there's over 600.

01:34:42

So, you know, part of my respect for St. Augustine was he holds

01:34:49

Scripture in such high esteem. Now, certain things about him, he probably is Catholic.

01:34:55

He may agree more with a Roman Catholic view than a Protestant view, but I think a powerful case can be made that Augustine held

01:35:04

Scripture as the supreme authority. By the way, as shocking as it may sound, I think you could make a case similar for Thomas Aquinas, but Aquinas, I think, is more definitively

01:35:15

Catholic, because he lives in a much later state, where you have the papacy and things have grown. But absolutely, you know, the...

01:35:24

I think the powerful point of being a Protestant, and again, we talk a lot about justification, and rightly so.

01:35:35

Knowing that, knowing the relationship between grace, faith, and works is critically important in the

01:35:41

Apostle Paul, the Book of Romans, the Book of Galatians, throughout Scripture, that we're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

01:35:50

I think, however, that there may have been an even more powerful idea, and that is that Scripture has no peer.

01:35:58

Church history is important. Church tradition has value. There are lots of sources of authority that have value.

01:36:06

I love the Church Fathers, even though I differ with various people in various times.

01:36:12

I love the medieval Catholic thinkers. I've written a book about people like Anselm, and Aquinas, and Augustine, so I'm trained in that area.

01:36:25

But Scripture has no peer. It's the supreme position, and I think actually even

01:36:31

Catholics and Orthodox would admit there's something unique about Scripture that you don't find in the other traditions.

01:36:40

So, you know, God's Word. We're back to a book again. I mean, we're back to this

01:36:46

Bible that is really kind of the foundation for not only the history of Christianity, but the history of Western civilization.

01:36:56

And what I should have pointed out earlier is that at an earlier state in American history, there were many

01:37:03

Supreme Court Justices that were solidly Protestant in their backgrounds.

01:37:09

And so, you know, one of my contemporary heroes is Bordemir Adler, the great educator of the 20th century.

01:37:16

He talks about great books, how to read a book. The Bible is the greatest of all the books.

01:37:25

And the other great books often simply point back to the Bible. I mean, here you have St. Augustine. 600 references to the

01:37:32

Scripture. Because Scripture was the great book that transforms his mind.

01:37:38

And same is true of Calvin. I think actually Calvin, maybe Calvin's greatest gift was not the

01:37:46

Institute, as remarkable as it was. It's his biblical commentary. Very, very powerful.

01:37:52

Well, we have to go to our final break right now. This is going to be a lot shorter than the other breaks. If you have a question for Ken, please send it to us immediately at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:38:03

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

01:38:09

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Why can't we see

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That's linbrookbaptist .org Ken Samples, we both have already agreed on this program that the primary thing that we need to believe are the

01:52:02

God -breathed inerrant scriptures. What do they say about the importance of the intellect and the life of the mind?

01:52:12

Yeah, again I'd like to point out, Chris, that just as there are moral virtues you know, you look at the second five of the

01:52:19

Ten Commandments, pretty powerful. There are intellectual virtues in the

01:52:24

New Testament and the Old Testament. The Bereans, they were fact -checkers.

01:52:31

The Bereans were checking sources. Paul in 1

01:52:37

Thessalonians 521 tests all things. The context there is prophecy. But actually in the development of science that idea of putting things to the test, falsify many of the great scientists in Europe were

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Christian and that had an influence on them. John, again being discerning about various beliefs, you know, don't believe things too quickly.

01:53:07

A lot of intellectual virtues that come our way.

01:53:13

And you know, truth is a sacred thing. We have to learn how to handle it very carefully.

01:53:20

And again, I think it honors the Lord when we're careful.

01:53:27

It's true that, you know, within Christianity we fight with each other and we bicker with each other and I like to think of myself as a peacemaker.

01:53:39

I like to be a person who talks about unity and charity. But I think the

01:53:45

Lord is pleased when we approach His word and we approach life with that kind of intellectual care.

01:53:54

So those are some of the intellectual virtues that I think we can see in Scripture.

01:54:01

And on the rung of the ladder of importance, as it were, where does the intellect, in your opinion, find its place on those rungs on that ladder?

01:54:17

Is it something that is the most important aspect of the Christian life?

01:54:23

No, I don't think it is the most important. I like to say that it's part of our love for God.

01:54:30

I want to love God with my money. I want to love God with the resources that I have.

01:54:37

I want to love Him with my mind. But what's most important is knowing the

01:54:44

Lord and coming to understand the good news that God has entered in this world in the person of Jesus Christ and through that remarkable life and death and resurrection that we can be cleansed from our sin by grace only through faith in the

01:55:05

Lord Jesus Christ. I don't think that the life of the mind is to compete with the centrality of the gospel message.

01:55:15

But I think that we would be foolish not to use such a gift that the

01:55:23

Lord has given for His kingdom and for our benefit in this world.

01:55:32

You have a huge library and always seem to be reading and reflecting about ideas.

01:55:39

Is it necessary for every Christian to pursue the life of the mind to the extent that you do?

01:55:46

Well, I did a little count not too long ago, and my own private library is getting close to 5 ,000 books.

01:55:55

I don't read electronic books. I only read print books, so it takes up a lot of my room at my office at RTB and at home.

01:56:04

No, I don't think everybody is going to be, you know, a bookish individual. I don't think everybody is going to have that kind of investment in it.

01:56:14

But, like I said, some of these studies indicate, Chris, that exposing our kids to books, teaching them to read, to master these basic principles can be so helpful to individuals throughout their lives.

01:56:32

So, you know, I have a real affection for books.

01:56:37

I like being in a room with books. I like going to a library. I like Amazon.

01:56:44

They sell books at a good price, but I'd much rather go into a bookstore and be around books.

01:56:51

But, no, not everybody is going to have the same calling. But all of us can be challenged.

01:56:58

And I think the Evangelical Church owes a thank you to Dennis Prager for raising this challenging issue before us.

01:57:09

You know, I have 10 ,000 volumes in my library, but 4 ,999 of them at least are

01:57:17

Mad Magazine. I'm only kidding. Well, that's a different kind of scholarship.

01:57:27

And let's not forget about solid -ground -books .com as we're discussing the importance of good

01:57:36

Christian literature. That may seem like a cheap opportunist ploy to move into the conversation, or stick into the conversation, but obviously since they are a primary reason we continue to exist,

01:57:53

I'm not ashamed of repeating their information for the finest in Christian literature. That's solid -ground -books .com.

01:58:01

Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. In a minute, Ken, can you just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today?

01:58:10

Yeah, well, one thing, Chris, I appreciate talking with you, and I remember my early friendship with you.

01:58:18

You know, Mike Gaydosh was starting a book -publishing company and bringing some old classics back into print.

01:58:31

So that's something I know that you have had care for.

01:58:36

Yeah, I want to encourage people. We have busy lives. We have lots of challenges.

01:58:43

I don't want anybody to feel guilt about maybe they don't read as much as they should, but rather I'd like to encourage your listening audience, and I know they hear that from you, they hear it from other people, but I guess

01:58:58

I would simply summarize the idea that truth is a sacred thing, and I think non -Christians do watch us, and I think if we handle truth carefully, you know, in my books

01:59:12

I make sure if I use a quote I have a source. I try to communicate the need to be very circumspect in that, and so learning can also be helpful.

01:59:26

I mean, neurologists, neuroscientists are talking these days about, you know, pushing back dementia,

01:59:35

Alzheimer's. Part of the answer to that is a rigorous intellectual life. And we're actually out of time, brother, and I want to make sure our listeners know the website where they can find out more about you and your books, reasons .org,

01:59:49

reasons .org. Thank you so much, Kenneth. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater