James White is Fallible

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White Well, I learned a lot Tuesday evening when

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I got to listen to the Lecture Delivered by dr.

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Lee Carter and my daughter's philosophy class I learned did you know that we have lived in a theocracy for six years now?

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We have lived in a theocracy for six years now, or at least that's what he thinks

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Theocracy. Yeah, since George Bush is the president then that we have a theocracy Wow Let's see.

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What's happened over the past six years. Let's see. How many babies have been aborted and How much has pornography grown and Yeah, that's a that's that's that's a theocracy.

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Yeah, okay. So anyway, I also learned That Augustine was a contemporary of Tertullian Yeah, which would mean that George Bush was a contemporary of Abraham Lincoln Okay, so I can understand that logic because you see they both lived a long long time ago

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George Bush's well, okay. You mean Augustine Tertullian? Yeah. Okay. So they they both lived a long long time ago.

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Yes, but they they were not actually Contemporaries, but that's that's what the class is told.

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So we discovered the church history is not exactly dr Carter's strongest suit there, but we were told that That he believes in a free exchange of ideas, however

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However that that that needs to be understood as very carefully defined

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That that there's certain certain of those ideas that are not included in the free exchange of ideas

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That needs to be kept free exchange of ideas. I talk you listen and that's He can talk about how

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For example, he says truth comes out in the conflict of ideas That's right But then he says it is important in my view to not allow any of the following to get into academia

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Intelligent design and any sort of belief infallibility of the Bible the Quran or the

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Pentateuch somehow He differentiates between the Bible and the Pentateuch The infallibility of any book or any person

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Ahmadinejad George Bush, etc He likes to mention them in the same name which he frequently does with Hitler and things like that Did I mention that in his published book his quote -unquote his published book is actually

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Photocopied by the GCC bookstore that they have to read. It's that's that's the book.

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He's been working on for a long long time It's a it's it's it's not quite up to the standard of George Bryson's book on that level because it's not bound together you just have to put holes in it and stick in a notebook, but anyway

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In there he likened Rush Limbaugh Hitler and skinheads they were all in one little line together, which

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I Tell you it's I've been getting an education. I have been getting a real education.

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So but Quote so what I want to keep out of the Academy because it has no scientific evidence support it

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Reason doesn't support it and common sense doesn't support it the view at the Bible is inerrant So there that and he later makes same statement regards to intelligent design those are two things that simply there can be no free exchange of ideas about that because they have to be kept out of the out of the

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Academy and if anyone who believes in those things tries to substantiate that well, we just won't even respond to their their emails

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I love this one There was one point where you know Elaine Pagels Pagels is at Princeton and Princeton's a wonderful wonderful school in Comparison to all these horrible schools like Bob Jones and Oral Roberts University and Liberty And so he's talking about Liberty and He actually paralleled

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Liberty with the madrasas in Pakistan now, I've never seen a madrasa then you know, they're these schools where you are the students sit and they they memorize nothing, but the

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Quran and they are taught the Islamic prayers and if you step out of line, you're whacked over the head and and that's supposed to be the parallel to Liberty and Oral Roberts and Bob Jones University now if you step out of line at Bob Jones, you will get whacked over the head

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But it's something called demerits But take the strictest school you come up with it's nothing like a madrasa.

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I mean to even parallel the two is I Don't know He had also mentioned in regards to the

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Bible being filled with errors thousands of errors Maybe tens of thousands of errors and I really got this distinct feeling

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He was suggesting that if anyone didn't like what he was saying They should just go to Bob Jones or Oral Roberts or Liberty and just not bother with the

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Academy At at all. He did say it once quote I hope the country has turned against the

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Republican regime because it is a theocracy and quote theocracy I'm just absolutely amazes me that someone would actually make that kind of a statement.

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I mean a theocracy I have to ask because I had an email earlier in the week who wanted to you know

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Know what our political views were because you mentioned George Bush in that email and therefore that opens up everything

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He mentions George Bush never the sentence, so I'd like to know What the Republican theocracy is soteriology

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Christology and theology are so that we can interact? Yes, we do with any of the other

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Groups that we work with yeah, yeah, I'll have to look at the Republican platform to find out those theological questions about that but Yeah, that's those are allegedly

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Theocracies, I'm pretty amazed by that. He says he has no problem with Christianity He speaks highly of Jesus But I very much have a problem with claims of biblical infallibility and biblical

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Inerrancy most Christians the world do not believe in the infallibility of the Bible So what he believes in is the what he calls the

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Gnostic Jesus so the Gospel of Thomas Jesus You know because that's he's into Buddhism. He I call him a

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Nostra Buddhist because he's in the Gnosticism and Buddhism, so he's a Gnostic Buddhist and he likes the

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Gnostic the Gnostic Jesus and so The problem is how you know he'll quote the

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Gnostic Jesus We the standard that would be used to actually believe that Jesus said anything like that would

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Far more substantiate the canonical Gospels than these second century things But they don't seem to see that and since they don't believe that anyone in the

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Academy would ever challenge them on that Maybe that's why when we debate some of these folks Halfway through the debate they go wow

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I never thought of that before Because they likewise Should you know don't believe that the

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Academy includes folks like us yes, or on the other hand it may be wow You guys actually think yeah

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Basic yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. That's basically Basically what it is that we didn't we just thought that you all

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Were like the some of those folks on TVN, but anyways At one point it was interesting that I got to be careful because I'm on TV I Actually, I'm just on the

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Coral Ridge hour that by the way this this Starts Saturday night. I think seven o 'clock

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Eastern Time. I think it's four o 'clock Pacific Time there will be a the next section in the

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Coral Ridge hours series on Islam and I was in the first one, and I wasn't in the second one, but I think it's the third one and I They at least showed me last week

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And I'm pretty certain that this is the theological section and I did a whole lot more in my interview on that than anything else so but anyway

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At one point he he likened Osama bin Laden and George Bush is having the same psychological profile so Hey no

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Just listening to stuff just makes me go wow But for those who are wondering what the response is gonna be

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I posted the response yesterday This is the only response we get I have yet to receive an email from dr.

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Carter. He will not respond to my emails Because obviously as he's for the reasons. He's about say right here

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He said quote I get emails all time from religious people all the time who say I want to come to your class and talk

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I want to debate come debate you I'm not gonna have anything to do with those people because I don't want to give them any kind of academic legitimacy

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Do we understand this all the time I get those things and they are always trying to sell their particular brand of truth

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Yes, and the whole idea is to keep them out of the Academy if they want to have their churches fundamentalist or otherwise

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I have no problem with that, but as far as coming into the Academy I got a big problem with that for all the reasons.

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I just enumerated so by definition There is no such thing in the

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Academy as a person who believes either an intelligent design Which I guess means you believe in non intelligent design

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Or in the idea that if there is a God that he can actually communicate himself with clarity

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So there you go that's that's the only response we're gonna get and Evidently what that likewise means is that he reserves to himself and since I've not even gotten a response from anyone

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President the college any of the board members Evidently what that means is that at least the

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Glendale Community College? Christian students Professors are allowed to say to Christian students in front of the class their parents have lied to them

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About their Christian faith without providing any documentation whatsoever, and they are unchallengeable on that particular issue so there you go

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If that was a Jewish student a Muslim student or anybody else you would have lawsuits

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Up one side and down the other but this is post -christian America And the only religious group that you can treat with bigotry hatred and prejudice are

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Christians and you will be rewarded for your hatred bigotry and Prejudice, and that's of course what we're dealing with is hatred bigotry and prejudice in fact

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If we were to use the language of the day dr. Carter is a Christophobe If he is a

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Christophobe or an anti -christian depending on how you want to put it, but a Christian Christophobe flows You know I mean, that's got that's got pop.

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You know Christophobe Christophe. You know you can say it a number of times That's what he would be and unfortunately.

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He is not unique and I did want to mention one other thing Some of the responses. I'm getting her basically go along these lines

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Well, then just go someplace else well, okay Actually summer is very good at getting along with people who she hasn't get along that wouldn't get along with her normally

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I mean some of you may recall This is three years ago now When she was a sophomore in high school that she wrote a letter

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To the president as a part of a class assignment. This is still on the blog if I go back and look at it and The teacher would not allow her to send her letter to the president was on stem cell research and she was opposed to it embryonic stem cell research and Make a long story short

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Not only did the president end up reading her letter and her letter only of all the letters that were sent in because we found of the way around that But and she was interviewed on radio programs, and you know so on so forth

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She never did get any credit for that letter by the way But years later that teacher apologized to her and Said I was wrong

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I've come to know that you're one of the best writers I've had as a student and and so on so forth and and she had a great witness in that situation

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She she didn't allow it to sour her Attitude toward this particular teacher, and so she was able to you know

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Make that relationship grow over time and and that was what basically proved that what she had written

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She had in fact written. It was her her writing at that time so anyway she can

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Get along with folks, but more than that She's taking an English class right now that she's really really enjoying thinks her teacher is just brilliant And doesn't want to give any of that up a other people said well

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Why isn't she in a Christian college first place? Well? We'd be poor folks first of all But secondly she was in a

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Christian high school, and she didn't like it She didn't like it. She didn't like going to a chapel where there were girls leaving that she knew were leaving to go throw up in the bathroom because they were drunk when they came to school and She didn't like the fact that boy was staring at her all the time in math class as you finally found out later

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It was because he was stoned on marijuana every time he came to math class And she didn't like being around a bunch of people who claimed to be

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Christians who weren't Basically just hypocrites who everybody claimed to talk about Jesus and everybody could wave their hands and sing the songs

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But there was no reality Quite honestly she'd rather be around pagans who are actually pagans Because they're easier to talk to because they know they're pagans

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Religious hypocrites are some of the hardest people on the planet to actually talk to and they get along with so That that's not the issue and really if we if we take the thought process that I'm getting from a lot of people through to its conclusion

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We should have Christian schools Where all the Christians go and then the worldly schools where all the worldly people go and I guess that would mean we should have

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Christian businesses that only Christians go the Christian businesses and and we should all just withdraw from the world and start our monasteries and start our utopian communities and just have nothing to do with the world and and Just you know build a wall and maybe start our own nation and just all

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Christians in our nation or I don't know what we're supposed to do, but the idea is The local government forcibly removes property from me in the form of money to support this school and I think that my daughter should have the

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Privilege and freedom of attending a school that is partially supported by the forcible removal of property from my possession called taxation and that she should be able to do so without being accused because she's a

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Christian of having been lied to by her parents without any substantiation and As long as we still have the freedom to speak out against that type of thing

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I think we better because otherwise we might as well just start, you know finding that nation. We're all gonna move to Once we got no place left to go

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You know, that's that's what else we're supposed to do so there you go, and that's situation as it stands and I Am gonna be posting an open letter that I've started open letter number two

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Responding to some of these issues and demonstrating that when you say that there is no Scientific for example saying there's no scientific evidence for the inerrancy of scripture.

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Well, that's Anyone remember the Bonson Stein debate? And where dr. Bonson demonstrates that Stein has made the the crackers in the pantry fallacy

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That is not all questions are answered in the same fashion in the same way that there are epistemological issues that would indicate to us that you do not answer questions like what is love and what is light and what is gravity in the exact same ways because they deal with different issues and That is the same type of situation you have here

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The claim of inerrancy is not a scientific claim now It has scientific ramifications so we can examine certain issues in regards to is the

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Bible making a scientific claim here And is it scientifically true? But it is not in its in of itself a scientific claim.

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There is no such thing as scientific evidence for a non -scientific claim You would think that these would be basic issues for someone who prides himself very much on his tremendous philosophical training from the

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University of Arizona, but They don't seem to come through because well, you don't apply those same standards to Positions that you have no respect for whatsoever and dr.

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Carter has no respect for people who believe these things therefore why in the world should even think through issues relating to that and So anyway,

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I'll be posting some Material on why it is that on both those issues such as intelligent design

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That A person can be forgiven for believing not only that there is scientific evidence for the concept of intelligent design

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In fact, I would challenge the idea. There's scientific evidence for non intelligent design But he also says that they lack common sense and reason and so on so forth

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I'll demonstrate that all that is is untrue and Present that on on the board so on the blog.

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I'm sorry not bored So that's the situation there for those of you who have been wondering What the if there's any follow -up so on and so forth today?

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She had another class but indicated that for once it was sort of just a normal class

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Nobody went off on a tangent and started going after Christianity and all the rest of that stuff. So no no problems there

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Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I just put something up on the blog That was rather interesting to me

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And that is not my a Simpson eyes version of myself, though. I thought that was sort of funny But just just to make reference to the fact that Bill Webster has put his testimony up there

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It's it appeared in that blue book from Moody, which I don't know. Maybe not even be in print any longer too bad if it isn't but Then some interesting articles from Mark Shea First of all just going after Roberts and Janice now

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Mark Shea goes after everybody he goes after basically Though he wasn't all that hard on meditics for some odd reason, but two links one to St.

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Janice one to meditics taking on both of them St. Janice far more than Meditix may because meditix is just straight up and saying that he's not in in harmony with the

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Roman Church any longer But St. Janice is trying to act like he is while continuing to put out all this anti -jewish stuff and find a way around The ruling of his bishop and stuff like that,

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I guess but there's a YouTube video that is attached to Mark Shea's article that Unfortunately, all it does is give

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Roberts and Janice and then a month and a year when he said it It doesn't give a URL or anything like that Though you couldn't click a video anyways to go to URL at least you might write it down pause it whatever

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So as I as I said here I said featuring some of what he claims our statements made by St.

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Janice regarding the Jews now I'm not in any way suggesting that Shea has made any of these things up. That would be dumb to do in the first place

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I'm just simply stating I haven't taken the time and have no interest whatsoever in taking the time

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To go back through each one of those statements and track it down I'm sure you could using keyword search on on St.

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Janice's website though I'll take that back because I think St. Janice removed a bunch of stuff from his website, but then according to this

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He seems to have moved it over to another website that doesn't have the word Catholic on it And that's one of the ways he's trying to get around this stuff or something.

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I don't know Hey, it's it's a mess over on their side of the Tiber. I'll let them fight it all out for themselves

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Though I'm not sure they would think that Maddox where would Maddox be in relationship to the

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Tiber River now? He's not on our side of the Tiber River He's on their side of the Tiber River, so where would he be he's floating down the

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Tiber River now He if you're more Catholic than the Pope. Where are you? What what river are you you're under you're under the

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Tiber River? Okay? All right? I don't know where you are that's a pretty wild stuff, but Check it out if you want to see more examples the wonderful unity brought about by denying solo scriptura

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You know you don't have your 33 ,000 denominations, but we sure have a whole lot of different opinions over here.

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That's that's what's going on there No, no toys about it 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number and that is the number that John gave us a call

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Hi, John. How you doing good? How you doing doing it? Hey if you want to know where Jerry Maddox is

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He is gonna be in Detroit soon. Oh And the holiday in How the mighty have fallen

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I can I can I can never forget the picture, and I've put on the blog

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I scanned this thing. I looked it up. There was a this rock magazine I remember getting it in the late 80s, and there's

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Jerry this this full Professional picture of Jerry Maddox, and he's got his hands folded and he's got a jacket and tie on and he's in this

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Catholic Church and and the the altar and stuff is behind him and He's got this real serious look on his face

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And and it says I'm the one who stole your relatives out of the Catholic Church And it was you know promoting his his conversion tape and all the rest of stuff and man within less than a year

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Not only was he out of Catholic answers But I would say less than two maybe three years after that you start hearing about the

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Going on between he and and Carl Keating. It took a little while for that to to come to come to a head, but It didn't take long so My how things change

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I I can't help but respect him and he has 10 kids. Yeah, and he is

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Stretching his you know his credit cards to the max doing the thing he's obviously He's obviously committed, and you know you really believes what he's doing, and I respect him

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Well yeah, I There's no question you cannot question

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Jerry's commitment to his cause I Would however there's there's not too many people well there's no one actually who has debated geriatrics more often than the than me and I think that may change the future with Catholics debating him, but at least for now

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I think I definitely hold the record at that point, and I gotta tell you something about Jerry matics. I've mentioned it before Jerry is never in any other mode than debate mode

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Yeah, now that's to me. I could never do it I mean, I'm starting to shift into that mode with the

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Ali debate coming up but there is no way I could live in that mode and Honestly, I think that part of what

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Drives him and as you just mentioned he's got all these kids, and he he's not he's not in this for the money

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That's right that Got to give him that you may question some Catholic writers who you know make huge amounts of money on fluff books, but he ain't in that for that because He's never written a book.

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I mean he told me he was great a book a bunch times He was almost done with it blah blah blah But as I've said the single most disorganized man on the planet is definitely

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Jerry matics And so he probably wrote the book five or six times kept losing it in in the process something along those lines

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But he's not it for the money. He's clearly in it for something else, but what is that something else? I honestly think part of the something else is the the

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Justification of what he did in 1986. I mean I said to him. I'm not sure if you heard the iron sharpens iron program Where he was on and I got to say a few things

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Because you can't get a word in edgewise with Jerry, but I Said to him then as I was listening to him promoting his

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His views the papacy and the priesthood and things like that I said you know the problem here is that the mistake

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Jerry made he mistake he made in 1986 when he became Roman Catholic he's now trying to Continue to say he did the right thing then but he's now realized that what the papacy teaches today and what it taught a hundred years ago are not the same thing and and for some reason

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Jerry got tired of all the Limp -wristed excuses that people come up with to try to get around the rather obvious fact that that Rome is is teaching something differently than she once did and So I think a lot of it is self -justification on his part, and it just kind of eat you up It's just over time.

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It's got to eat you up, but He's an intense guy. He's an intense guy, but actually none of this was why you called no right right?

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I'm calling. I think I guess I'll say for two points one I want to I'm gonna have a I have a criticism for you, and then

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I have a question about the Beckwith situation Okay, and here's my criticism It relates to whether or not you're me and I suppose

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I think you made a big mistake in the Beckwith situation in that Alright, you can take this for what it's worth.

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This is my opinion I think a character flaw that is common amongst argumentative people like myself even is

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Pride that's probably the first character flaw that probably one of the most common character flaws and In the

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Beckwith situation I followed along and I think I thought your arguments were great

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But when he said hey you misunderstood me I did not say

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I hadn't read Trent I Think your pride got in the way of you And you were unwilling to admit that you had misread him and that Totally derailed the conversation and allowed him and out

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To not have to discuss the arguments that you put forward and I think I've seen this from you a couple times before where I?

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Think you know like I said, I'm not saying I'm perfect I'm not saying I don't do either if I'm arguing with somebody and they make a point

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And I think I'm wrong or say for instance if I am wrong I don't necessarily admit it immediately just because of my own pride

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But I think that is what happened in this case And I wonder if you would concede that maybe pride is a common flaw amongst apologists skeptics

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Anybody that's involved in arguing and maybe is it something you struggle with? Pride is something that all of us struggle with and I was struggle with it too, but had absolutely positively nothing to do with that and It's real simple reason why

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I laid out very very clearly I quoted him repeatedly what he said there is

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No possible way that a person speaking the English language Could say the things that he said and mean what he then comes around to saying now if what he wants to admit is

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I? was I was just being humorous, and I was being funny and I miscommunicated fine, but the fact the matter is he made the statement that he was expecting to find certain things

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In Trent and he said that he had been misled as to what was in Trent I'm sorry none of those words can possibly have any meaning at all if what he was actually saying is oh

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Yes, I stated before I knew what it said but Somehow what

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I meant was I had misled myself or something like that I I mean I laid all of this out

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And I I did the first thing when he comes back and says oh He's misread me the first thing that crossed my mind is okay

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Did I and as I read once again and listened to what he specifically said?

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if he Meant that then language has no meaning and here is a man who has made a living on asserting that words have

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Meanings and so I had nothing to do with pride you're right That's how he used it

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But to be honest with you anyone can use anything to get out of a meaningful conversation

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It's not that I saw any indication that he was ever going to respond to anything about canon 13 the

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Council of Nicaea Or anything that because he just hasn't studied those things 90 days is not enough time to have actually

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Done that stuff, and that's why when Greg Kochel starts asking him in -depth questions his only response is what's not why

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I became a Catholic He didn't want to discuss those things and so he was looking for a way out And he found the way out in that means there's no no question about that, but I Can't I can't control the means that someone is going to use to get out of a conversation

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I mean, I think if I'm remembering correctly he had already said he was bailing out that conversation before that thing ever came up So he was looking for a way out, but no it had nothing to do with pride that the explanation that he gave simply could not

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It couldn't convince anybody that that what he had said on that program did not communicate with clarity

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That he had not read the Council of Trent, and then I think what he saw was wow that sounds really bad

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For a scholar to say I've never done that and so I'm gonna I'm gonna

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You know so change things here, but that wasn't my pride getting in the way

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That was the fact that I really think that language means something and if I'm willing to let somebody get away

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With changing the meaning of language there, then where where do I stop where down the road?

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I'm gonna have to let him get away with it again, then again. It's not gonna talk to accomplish anything So it had nothing

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I had nothing to a pride because I don't see any evidence whatsoever That can answer the simple objections that his words

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Communicate I mean how can you be? misled about something that you've read Well, I tell you what when

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I read him, and I went back and read it after I mean I understand how you came away with that initial impression

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I'm not denying that but I also think in retrospect as you go back and look at it And you say you see him say

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I expect it to find such -and -such That's not in any way inconsistent with the fact that he has read it before and the other probably you know on your view

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Opinion that he went into that discussion with the intention of deceiving people into thinking he had never read

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Before it wasn't no no of course no no no that's not what I would have to think He was not expecting no.

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He was not expecting even to to have to address such things I I have no idea why he said what he said

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I He was he there were a number of times that he made off -the -cuff

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Forced laughter statements that I felt were completely out of place. He did not seem to be

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Comfortable at all in what he was doing I don't know why outside of trying to basically say that that he had a view of Roman Catholicism that was just way off.

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He was he was just completely Hornswoggled about Catholicism and when he finally started to look into it and started to be open to it

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He found to be something different whatever and he tries to do it with humor and talks about sticking pins in his eyes or stuff

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Like that, but he did make the statement that he had been misled by his teachers about what was in the

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Council of Trent I'm sorry, but if I said that that means I haven't read it. I can't be this well

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Okay, then we're gonna have to disagree because from my perspective I cannot be misled about something

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I have read when I if I've read the Council of Trent I can't be misled by somebody else about what's in the

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Council of Trent because I read it I have knowledge of it, you know You're a smart guy and maybe you're better than me when you read things you you really internalize them and retain the better than me

32:59

You probably do Maybe I'm more like Francis Beckwith if I read it years ago and didn't just totally

33:06

Photographically memorize it. I the the teaching that I gleaned after reading it could distort my view of it

33:13

But you just might work for me you just refuted yourself, you know how because allegedly

33:19

Allegedly the misleading what he says later that he was misled by his Lutheran teachers was contemporaneous with his allegedly having read it

33:28

But that doesn't mean that he would necessarily you know It's maybe a boring document and maybe you retain things better that are in your class that you're hearing directly from a teacher orally

33:36

There's people retain things in different ways. Some people are better at retaining oral things Some people are bored with Cannons and stuff like that.

33:43

I would be so I don't think that's unreasonable, but I think it's unfortunate He may have taken another out.

33:50

He probably would have had you not gone this route and then turned the debate into this subject Oh, wait a minute.

33:55

Wait a minute. I didn't turn into that. He did well, no, no, no. No, no, I did not I'm sorry. He's the one who chose to go after that subject.

34:04

I had already raised all sorts of issues He no one you can you can say that I made a tactical error in allowing him and out

34:13

But I'm not the one that focused upon that. I'm right. Okay. All right Yeah, I'll grant your point there.

34:19

But what what I think what I think it had you said, you know what? I think what you said

34:25

Leads to the opposite conclusion, but if you're gonna tell me that's not what you meant I'll grant the point and we'll just move on well and I and I presented on my blog

34:32

I said look dr. Beckwith claims that he read these things fine. Here's why I don't see it makes any sense but look the fact matter is already the the whole group of people had descended on the

34:46

STR blog That it wouldn't have mattered what the next area of discussion was

34:52

It honestly would not have mattered because there no discussion was going to take place. There are certain people they follow me around If I ever pop up on a on a on a blog they use search engines to make sure every day if I've Commented someplace that they'll be there by the end of that day.

35:07

There's not going to be any more conversation There's going to be so much smoke and dust and everything else thrown around.

35:13

There's not going to be any more conversation So but the fact is he had Heads had already laid out

35:20

The fact that there was not going to be much of a theological give -and -take within that context long before the

35:26

Trent issue came up That there was I Reposted everything on my blog.

35:33

Here's the issues. He made this claim about canon 13 indulgences Here's what Roman Catholic sources say was there a word about that?

35:41

Nothing, I mean to my knowledge He has never said anything to attempt to reestablish or to defend that kind of an assertion that the 13th can also counsel

35:50

I see is somehow Demonstrates that there was an ancient that is pre -existing Doctrine of indulgences because no

35:56

Roman Catholic scholar is going to try to substantiate that because their own histories Trace the development of that the doctrine of purgatory and everything else that then gave rise to indulgences to be long after that So it's it's not even a point, but he would not respond to it.

36:11

So I think a part of it was because he doesn't have a taste for that.

36:17

That's not you know, as he said I take him Absolutely, honestly, he said to Greg Kochel that's not why

36:23

I became a Catholic that's not why I became a Catholic and if you've listened to him on Catholic answers and From what the caller said

36:30

UW TM. They're not talking about those things either. He doesn't want to do that He doesn't want to take that role and that's fine.

36:38

And I'm glad that he's not going to I really Hope that he will follow through with that and I hope if he writes something

36:44

That it will not include an attempt to try to substantiate those types of things because that's not that ain't his thing

36:52

But if it does we got to respond to it, you know, but I would rather that that That to see it just go away.

37:00

I mean he was raised the Roman Catholic and I think that's That that this reversion really wasn't that big of a deal

37:08

Because we're not talking about somebody here who has made some big claim that yes

37:14

I've understood the doctrines of Reformation and I've always been consistent in holding a Non -catholic view of grace and a non -catholic view of man.

37:21

No, he said I've always had a Catholic view of grace I've always had a Catholic view of man So this is just sort of a realignment from his perspective that makes it a little bit more consistent

37:30

So let me ask you this. Do you think do you think it's true in your life as it is in mine?

37:36

That it is difficult for you to admit you've made a mistake Well, you know, there are lots of things that I may have made mistakes on in the past I'm just in this particular instance

37:50

Well, I've given examples in the past when Roman Catholics have raised this issue on blog articles

37:56

I've pointed out for example mistakes. I've made in debates Changes that I've made my own eschatological perspective

38:03

So on and so forth. I'm not sure what this has to do with the specific issue of Allowing language to be what language is

38:13

You know The general I think I think

38:18

It's a problem amongst apologists to admit error what I think my opinion. Okay, we've discussed it

38:24

I know we're going to disagree but in my opinion What happened here was you did? He may not have been clear, but you were wrong in your interpretation of him.

38:33

And when you wouldn't say, okay, I Misunderstood you that Makes people think you are incapable of doing that and that makes you less trustworthy

38:44

Okay Well, I can only do I can only be consistent with what I've done all along and that is

38:50

I established and documented the fact This is what was said These are what words mean if someone can explain how you can say

38:58

X Y & Z and I've been trying to find it On my blog and I can't find the article where I laid this out

39:05

But I laid it out on the blog Here's what the language means is someone could please answer these questions and no one did he didn't no one else offered any fulfillment of those questions

39:17

Here's what language means. This is why I said what I said if dr. Beckwith says that he read

39:23

Trent fine Could someone please explain how you could make these statements when you have read this source? That's all

39:28

I did and If that destroys my credibility in somebody's mind then I'm obviously not the the apologist for that person because they have a very

39:37

Fundamentally different way of understanding language and the how truth is communicated than I do and I can't

39:42

I can't be of any assistance to someone Who's who's going to operate on that on that foundation?

39:50

well, I Mean obviously you think you just think you know, you're right in your interpretation

39:55

I have I mean there was an incident with you and me on the phone where I think the same thing happened I could give you another example where I think you are

40:02

Obviously you made a mistake a perfectly normal not does not critical to your own view

40:08

Mistake that most people make people make all the time But I it's hard for you to I think admit those mistakes.

40:14

Should I can I give you that example? I Suppose so. Okay. I called you and I I mentioned

40:22

Robert Price one time and When I mentioned his name you said yeah, we've been through this before haven't we right right, but Yeah, we did and you know the story you said he's a shot

40:35

Oh, you know what you're not even you don't you don't care about Beckwith. You're not even you're not even a Christian No, I'm not a

40:41

Christian. Yeah. Okay. All right. We've spent a good deal of time with today. Thank you very much Oh good grief You know, the only reason

40:48

I invested that kind of time was I thought I was talking to a Christian. Sorry mistake I am

40:54

I am NOT infallible and there it is again. Oh Man, I should have recognized

41:01

John Detroit. I should have seen it. I don't invest my mind in these things and I should have seen that and I Apologized everybody.

41:12

We wasted half the program today. I apologize greatly for that No wonder

41:17

I couldn't communicate anything there. So, all right. Well, my apologies. We'll just Tell everybody you can just fast -forward past past that one

41:26

Let's try to at least rescue some of the program here get back to something of meaning here

41:33

Yeah, I can't I can't read somebody's mind over over telephone, you know If they're not going to be straightforward about it, and if that's him, no, thank you.

41:43

Not interested We've spent enough time there. All right, let's continue on with where were we?

41:49

Oh, yes Finally get around to something here we have for quite some time been attempting to deal with the issue of Jimmy Akin and the

41:59

Bible Answer Man broadcast and So I would like to continue with that We have gotten to 58 minutes into the program if you have the relevant audio files

42:10

We were in the second hour where we were discussing the doctrine of salvation this is the hour where there was a tremendous difference between The the two sides as far as the amount of time that we got we will pick up with what he was

42:25

Who's talking here? Well, we'll find out here in a moment So you're saying you're going to define the treasury of merit in a different way than James exactly

42:33

There are in the way the term is used in Catholic theology. There are three forms of merit There is strict merit condined merit and congruent merit strict merit is the highest that one does earn things

42:45

Okay But only Christ can do it Humans cannot possibly merit anything in the strict sense

42:54

This is made over and over numerous this point is made over and over numerous Catholic documents It's in fundamentals of Catholic dogma that mr.

43:00

White just quoted from it's in the Catechism of the Catholic Church Which I have right here humans cannot merit anything in the strict sense

43:06

We can only merit things in an analogous sense and what that means is this When God gives us his grace to plead to do acts which are pleasing to him

43:17

Which the New Testament clearly affirms that we can please God I mean Paul is regularly exhorting us to do things that please

43:22

God and so forth when God gives us his grace To do things that please

43:28

God God may have promised to reward that act with With you know a reward in heaven or on earth or whatever or he may not have promised

43:36

If God has not promised to reward the act, but it pleases God That's called conduct congruent merit the lowest form of merit is merit only in an improper sense

43:47

If God has promised that he will reward the act that pleases him which his own grace has given us the ability to do

43:54

Then it's condyne merit. Okay. Now those are some big fancy terms, but the bottom line is

43:59

God's promise is the basis for all Claim that we would have on any gift of his we have no claim on any of his gifts our own

44:08

Even when we've done acts that pleased him because it was his grace that gave us the ability to do those acts So any merit we have

44:15

Any condyne merit we have which is what the Council of Trent talks about and so forth is based purely on God's promise

44:21

He gave us the grace to do an act that pleases him and then he promised to reward it This is a point incidentally,

44:27

I can see we're running out of time. I'll make the point at the break Okay, great and we're coming back in just a few moments with more of the

44:34

Bible instrument broadcast and don't touch that dial now that was

44:42

I had simply raised the issue of merit and in the sense of the

44:48

Treasury of merit the excess merits of the Mary and the Saints and we get this long drawn -out discussion of the nature of Merit and congruent merit and condyne merit and I guess the idea was well

45:05

You're saying that we just merit things from God and it's a gross work salvation I hadn't said that What I had actually said doesn't end up getting addressed in in any way shape or form and you end up with with this long

45:17

Discussion going on from there. Now. I'm not certain if this next section is a

45:23

I Thought we had taken out commercials. Let me check your perspective in a moment. No guess not

45:29

I guess that goes right to I'm your host

45:39

Hank Hanegraaff president of Christian Research Institute. I'm in studio today with James White at the Alpha and Omega ministries

45:44

He's representing the Protestant position as we deal with the whole issue of Roman Catholicism We have

45:50

James Aiken of Catholic answers now Jimmy who is representing the Roman Catholic position and I might add very well

45:56

I appreciate once again that both of you gentlemen are dealing with a very very

46:04

Significant issue that you have profound disagreements on and yet you are doing it in a manner that I think is a credit to both of You as men who named the name of Christ and you're both to be commended

46:19

I I know that there is a lot of heat that is often A direct result of this kind of discussion but you are in fact helping us to see some light as well understanding the profound differences and Again want to commend both of you guys want to go back so you can finish your comments

46:40

James Aiken on the Treasury of Merit And then of course give James what an opportunity to respond

46:47

Okay. Well the Just a couple points one of them is The one

46:53

I was trying to get across was the whole concept of merit what it is in the second century when?

46:58

The Bible was being translated into other languages for that when the New Testament was being translated in other languages for the first time

47:04

There was a question about what terms do you pick to translate certain terms? The Greek term for reward was one that was translated into Latin using the

47:14

Latin term meritum Meritum is simply a term in Latin meaning reward

47:19

Okay, so when Catholics are talking about the doctrine of merits what we're talking about is a doctrine rewards We're not talking about the doctrine of earning anything

47:26

Meritum in Latin has very different associations than what the term merit does to modern

47:31

Protestant audiences It's simply another it's simply the Catholic way of talking about the doctrine of rewards now in fact,

47:39

I was reading a document put out recently by a group of German Lutherans and Catholics where they were discussing the origin of the term merit and they made the point that the term merit was picked precisely

47:50

Over another Latin term because it did not have the strict legalistic earning connotations that the other term did

47:56

So the very fact that the term merit was introduced was to emphasize that this is not strict earning that's going on here

48:02

What happens as I said before the broadcast before the break is that? God by his grace gives us the ability to do things that please him

48:11

How long has it been since I said anything a long? Time so far and honestly what's been said so far has almost nothing to do with the key issues of justification or issues like that, but it makes you sound like you really know acts of love and he

48:29

Promises to reward some of those and when that happens, it's what Catholics call condign merit the problem

48:37

It deals with saying with statements like You know is eternal life a reward and so forth in this sense well

48:43

God has given us the ability to have faith to have faith formed with charity a faith that Produces good works rather than a faith that is barren

48:52

You know a living faith rather than a dead one and he has promised to reward that And so by that definition eternal life is a reward and this is something

49:00

This is a point that that many Protestants are willing to agree to once they think about it

49:06

In fact, I have right here a copy of the Lutheran Book of Concord, which is the standard Lutheran confessional book and it states right here on page 162 and the apology for the

49:17

Augsburg confession that we are not putting forward an empty quibble about the term reward We grant that eternal life is a reward because it is something that is owed not because of our merits

49:29

But because of the promise Okay, so not in the sense that we've earned it which is the way that the apology here is using the term merit

49:37

But because of the promise that God has given if we have faith formed by charity, which is something he himself gives us

49:44

Now so far just from looking at this. I think we're around six uninterrupted minutes and we really haven't touched on the key issues of Justification anything else even at this and he will reward that by giving us eternal life and the and this is this is not a problem if we want to be biblical the

50:06

Phrase eternal life is always described as a gift given on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ And I think the issue really as we get back to justification news and really focus in upon it

50:17

The Protestant looks at a past like Romans 5 1 therefore having been justified by faith

50:24

We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ in the Roman Catholic system.

50:30

I've already read from Liggett out. We said we This is this is a situation a a this justification can be lost by the commission of mortal sins

50:38

This is a situation where you can't have certainty because you don't know if you've fulfilled all the requirements for obtaining

50:43

Justifications do you claim to have infallible certainty about whether you're safe now? Did you catch that?

50:50

six minutes uninterrupted I went for approximately 40 seconds interruption and interruption to change the topic of conversation away from the nature of justification to what he's now just right now my

51:06

Thing I'm fallible about is the fact that my justification is not based upon my fulfilling requirements

51:12

But it's based upon the fact of the Lord Jesus Christ There's a requirement of my requirements in my behalf.

51:17

There's my perfect substitute There's a requirement of faith in Jesus Christ isn't there that faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from God It's Paul said well places and that's why he can say in first Corinthians chapter 1 verse 30 when he talks about Jesus Christ It is because of him that you in Christ Jesus who has become for us wisdom from God That is our righteousness holiness and redemption.

51:37

Therefore as it is written, let him who boasts boast in the Lord exactly reality of Christ I solus

51:42

Christus He is my righteousness when I stand before God I just decided this point.

51:48

Look, he's trying to take this whole show over. He's not gonna let me get in worrying Ed White So I'm just keep going. I figure when it comes to that I grew up doing radio when it comes to the two of us talking

51:58

I can out talk pretty much anybody except for Jerry Matta ticks who Is genetically superior to me and I do not stand clothed in the righteousness of myself and others

52:07

I don't contend clothed in the righteousness That is that is given to me in any way shape or form on the basis of what anyone else has done

52:15

And you James you're preaching to the choir and no, I'm not sorry No The only merit that humans have the only righteousness that humans have is is what comes from Jesus Christ Now you were pointing out that let me finish my point.

52:29

Well, and of course I in a moment I'm giving offering of Ludwig Ott But comes from Jesus Christ as in what does he mean by that imputed to him?

52:38

No, no, no Comes from Jesus Christ means by his death He merits the grace by which we then cooperate with that grace to bring about that righteousness

52:47

You see see that there is a chasm of difference between two But most people would not even catch what the difference was.

52:55

That's that's the scary part Well, we have another call we need to get in before we run out of time here. And that's that's

53:01

Mike Hi, Mike. How you doing? Hey, dr. White. How are you today doing? All right. Hey, I hope James Aiken definitely hears this stuff

53:07

He really needs to hear it. Oh, no. No, no, it's not never gonna happen. I guarantee you Guaranteeing he would never ever listen to anything that I have to say

53:15

I mean most of our interactions of late have demonstrated that he Had not even read articles written directly about him 10 -15 years ago that provide documentation

53:24

Yeah, no, no, they that side doesn't listen to us. Yeah. Yeah, so I give you credit for doing what you do

53:31

I don't know how you do it. Sometimes it's got to be a little bit of frustrating especially well from what from my end It's frustrating because they don't ever interact.

53:37

So But I do appreciate what you're trying to you know, put forth. I really do. Yes, sir I think it's well,

53:43

I will deserve so but on another note not not to belabor the point or Unnecessarily carry on I was listening to your conversation with this guy

53:50

John who called him And I just think what he was saying was I think it was pointless to be perfectly honest with you

53:56

I'm just I'm just thinking of myself. Well, gee, has he heard like you brought up the the Catholic answers program? you bought you brought up the

54:02

Gregory Coco program you brought up the AWTN's journey hope journey home program.

54:08

I wonder if he's heard any of those things in total I well see that the same my assumption from the start was that the only person who would call and Be concerned about something like this would be a fellow believer who?

54:20

Has been following the the Beckwith stuff and I'm sorry I began apologize the audience that I didn't make the connection that this guy is an unbeliever and all he's looking for is reasons to Question Christians and and to attack our credibility and things like that.

54:35

I would never have wasted that amount of time With an unbeliever who wants to argue about whether Francis Beckwith meant

54:42

X Y or Z about about Trent that that was yeah Complete waste of time my apologies and another example that I am

54:48

NOT infallible. But anyway, yeah, mr John if you're listening, please listen to those programs

54:54

For you to do so. Yes, but on another note. Hey, I got a unrelated question here for you pertaining to the

54:59

Quran Mm -hmm. I have a buddy of mine here who does a lot of evangelistic work and he had come across a

55:05

Muslim and This Muslim says he is a he's an imam and I don't know if he's a

55:11

Sunni or a Shiite but we're going to be meeting with this fellow and They got into my friend had got into a discussion with this

55:17

Muslim about the scriptures and they just briefly touched upon the issue of inspiration and so forth and This this

55:25

Muslim fellow had made the comment that the reason why the Quran is superior to the

55:31

Bible is the fact that they that they That there's actually two original Manuscripts of the

55:37

Quran and the Christians can't make that claim relative to the Bible. Hmm No, I never heard that now unless I miss it somewhere along the way, which is possible

55:46

But I'd want to get your insight on that. Yeah, you know No serious no serious

55:51

Islamic scholar would ever claim that they have original manuscripts of the Quran there may be very you know folks who really don't know what they're talking about, but What he may be referring to Is that there are there are some who believe that there are some pre

56:10

Uthmanic? Manuscripts, so there's a palimpsest that was found at Sa 'ana 'a

56:16

That some feel is pre Uthmanic that is prior to Uthman's revision around 655

56:23

But the the problem they have is if they want to try to say that there was in a

56:29

Quranic manuscript that existed Prior to Uthman and they some actually might try and make that argument

56:36

They certainly are not claiming that any that exists today are those particular manuscripts what they may be

56:44

Confusing or heard somebody say and then they've they've you know, you know how stories can sort of roll and grow moss

56:51

But but that since we have these very very early manuscripts of the

56:56

Quran that they are Has somehow become twisted in their mind into somehow an original or something like that but that there's just no way to substantiate that kind of assertion in any serious fashion and What's more is if that if they're claiming well

57:13

These are before Uthman then they have to explain why the hadith even contains the story of Uthman because according to That story found in Sahih al -Bukhari.

57:23

I've read on the divining line before they had to gather the Quran from palm branches rocks and memorization in essence and and bring it all together and they even for example, there are a couple of Ayahs and various surahs couple verses

57:41

They were only found in the memories of one particular individual if there was an original manuscript all that stuff silly all that stuff's completely inane

57:49

As to what the world they'd be talking about at that point. So no There is there is no one that I know of who seriously makes the assertion that they have an original manuscript of the

58:01

Quran what? they will say even what what Shabir Ali will say is that the

58:07

The Quran has not changed in any meaningful fashion from the earliest manuscripts that we have and But the problem is that goes back to Uthman that goes back to a revision

58:18

That contained various and sundry, you know places, you know verses that some people had missed and and so on and so forth

58:25

That's a that's a real issue. When's that meeting going to be taking place? Hopefully come this weekend

58:32

Well, if I were you I'd hit answering dash Islam org and do some searching around the

58:37

Kron section. Excellent. Thank you, sir God bless. Thank you. God bless. Okay. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye All right.

58:42

We're at a time of the dividing line. We'll be back the Lord willing on Let's see today's Thursday.

58:47

Happy Tuesday. We'll see you then God bless

59:31

The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries If you'd like to contact us call us at six.

59:37

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59:45

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