Dave Hunt's book "What Love is This?" Examined

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Here is James White And welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White and it finally arrived
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It took forever, but I hold in my hands. What love is this Calvinism's?
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misrepresentation of God By Dave Hunt is it as bad as I expected it to be?
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Yes, it is as bad as I expected it to be but as I have learned with Chosen but free by Norman Geisler and really whenever anyone attacks
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God's truth Good always comes out of that and that's what we'll be looking at today here on the dividing line
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Good to be back with everyone this week been gone a little bit been traveling great to meet folks and met some great young men from Youngstown, Ohio came up gave me a shirt at the conference
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I was speaking at last week and and Get to meet a lot of you folks who either listen live or you listen to the archives the dividing line each week
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And it's very very encouraging to meet folks But we have been getting a tremendous amount of email and interest in the response to Dave Hunt's book
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And so it finally arrived. I had the opportunity of leafing through it At the conference I spoke at in st.
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Louis where I also spoke with mr. Hunt had a dinner with mr. Hunt and Talked with him about the debating because I feel that by far the most effective means of refuting this book
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Is to debate the issue Because the kind of constant argumentation used is circular and hence in Debates where you have to undergo cross -examination
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The entirety of mr. Hunt's argument against the reformed faith would collapse in a very short period of time
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I'll be giving you examples of this kind of fallacious argumentation on mr. Hunt's part but first I would like to remind you of Some of the background in regards to this book
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I Have obviously warned mr. Hunt along with many many other people
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That he should not write this book that he was putting himself in a position of being Of just basically destroying his credibility as an exegete or as a writer
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I guess I should say as mr. Hunt himself said on May 12 2001
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I know nothing about Greek. It might as well be Chinese, but I can read English.
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That's a direct quote May 12 2001 I was in the audience. In fact, I was in the sound booth of the church that mr
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Hunt was speaking at we were both plenary speakers at a conference there May 12 2001 I know nothing about Greek.
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It might as well be Chinese, but I can read English. That's Dave Hunt's direct quotation of himself and Hence the idea of being involved in exegesis
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He recognizes that the original languages are beyond his grasp that does not stop him in This book from making all sorts of outrageous
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Claims about the original languages and all sorts of outrageous errors concerning the original languages but he does not claim to be an exegete on that level and Instead just makes numerous errors because I guess he just wants to submit his materials to those who would be able to correct
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The errors that he's making but I have told mr. Hunt. I told mr. Hunt all along That he should not write this book that he did not have the background to write this book
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Many other people also told him that in fact in his book
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He wrote to the following. This is on page 22 as it became known that I intended to write such a book a number of pastors cautioned me to refrain from publicly expressing myself on this subject because out of ignorance of its true teachings
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I had already misrepresented it a typical response from the Calvinist friends to whom I send an early manuscript for comment went like this
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The caricatures you present the straw men you construct demonstrate to me that you have absolutely no understanding the reformed position
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And until you do I would counsel that you refrain from putting anything in print and quote and I just stopped for a moment
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And say that is exactly what every reformed person that I have talked to who has talked with mr
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Hunt has said and that's very much what I said to mr. Hunt in the letters that I sent to him as well.
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I Continue reading from page 22 letters began to pour into our ministry the brain call from around the world many from pastors insisting that I Was unqualified to address
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Calvinism and urging me to seal my lips and drop my pen regarding this topic It was suggest that would lose many friends and alienate myself from leading
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Evangelicals most of whom were said to be convinced Calvinists furthermore who would publish such a book since the major publishers had brought out many books
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On the other side and now let me just stop there. I certainly did not make those arguments. I do not believe for a moment
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That this should be a topic that is not discussed I do not believe for a moment that if you're convinced of what you believe you should be overly concerned about losing friends or alienating
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Other people I've alienated about everybody there is to alienate and as far as publishers, that's simply ridiculous
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There are many publishers who publish on both sides and most publishers would not publish reformed works
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I mean, I'm reminded of Cademan's call Derek Webb Is an acquaintance of mine from Caden's call and he noted that there were radio stations that would not play their reformed song thankful because of its theology, so Reformed theology is not the majority in evangelicalism today.
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I can guarantee you that so anyways continues on page 22
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What moved me most was the concern earnestly expressed by close friends that a book for me on this issue could cause division
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The last thing I wanted we can hear it We can just hear it now several friends told me here comes Dave hunt again this time
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He's attacking Calvinist that concern weighed heavily upon me that concern would not
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Weigh heavily upon me That that would not be an issue at all for me
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Truth divides and if this is an issue in regards to truth, then that would not be an issue at all
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Finally, he says one must be willing to accept wise counsel, but the advice to remain silent though given by so many
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I have genuine concern seemed after much prayer and soul -searching my part to be ill advised Spurgeon called the debate over God's sovereignty and man's free will a controversy which
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I believe to have been really healthy in which has done Us all a vast amount of good my heart's desires
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This book will be only to God's eternal glory into the blessing of his people. Well, that's very nice And I am going to hold mr.
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Hunt to the statement that he makes over and over again We need to debate the subject because I've challenged mr.
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Hunt to debate this subject fully in person live in front of Microphones and video cameras
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And I talked with mr. Hunt two weekends ago in fact Two weekends ago last evening and I really insisted that the only way to really deal with this to demonstrate who is speaking the truth and who can answer the questions is to have an
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In -person debate and at the time he seemed willing to agree to that I in fact had suggested
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November maybe early December as a time when we could get together We could find a place and we could to do a
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Friday night Saturday morning Saturday afternoon or Saturday evening three full sessions six seven hours minimally
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Of debates on the key issues in regards to his book and to my book the
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Potter's freedom which he cites from Frequently in his book accusing me of scripture twisting and various and sundry other things as well so That challenge remains and I am
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NOT going to back off on it I've heard since then that someone was talking to him said well
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You know he maybe he suggested maybe all could do a book together or do an internet debate or something no no no
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This needs to be done in fact today May 4th Dave Hunt is debating dr.
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Joseph Piper At the Joe Chambers King James only Gail Ripplinger Church in Charlotte, North Carolina I had let mr.
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Chambers know that I'd be more than happy to debate mr. Hunt there mr. Chambers would not allow me to do so because mr.
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Chambers says I'm too mean the reason for that is that mr. Chambers was on the John Ankerberg program and on King James only ism defending
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Gail Ripplinger And he lost and lost badly and anybody who watches that knows that and therefore he would not allow me to be a part of that particular debate
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So that's the background of that, but mr. Hunt is doing a debate against Dr..
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Piper this very day in fact in just a matter of hours, so there is no logical or rational reason for mr.
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Hunt to avoid doing a debate against one of the people that he quotes most frequently and makes personal
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Accusations of scripture twisting against in his book and if mr. Hunt will not do so I think that will speak very very loudly to the
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Integrity of this particular book in this entire particular subject, but going back in history just a little bit
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I want to give you a little more background here Going back in history. I want to remind you we've talked about this before But if this is the first time you're listening to this particular subject
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Mr.. Hunt and I have talked before in fact if you go to straightgate .com you will find looking at I believe
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June 23rd 30th and July 7th of 2001 three dividing lines in a row where I deal with Dave Hunt's sermons against Calvinism and demonstrate that he is in error over and over and over again.
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I sent those tapes to mr. Hunt And it was in result it was in response to that that he said oh,
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I'd be glad to debate you But then things changed after that and I was told well there are other reformed authors my my publisher wants to do you to debate
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First and and so on so forth, but hopefully you've gotten past those things by talking directly to mr.
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Hunt and But we have dealt with this issue before and it all started in August of 2000
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August of 2000 when I had a dialogue with Dave Hunt on the Marty Minto show in fact mr.
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Hunt's ministry makes the tapes of this available which I find absolutely amazing we have them on the website
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There at straightgate .com you can look them up there you can listen two parts you can listen to them what
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I've done is I've put together a Quotation from the beginning of that where mr.
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Hunt admits he is ignorant to the Reformers Then right afterwards and you'll sort of be able to tell a difference in the sound quality
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Five months later January of 2001 I put together a quotation from mr.
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Hunt's own Berean call radio broadcast and I think these particular two quotations say a lot
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Well first of all James I'm very ignorant of the Reformers.
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I have not had time to read them There are truckloads I guess of their writings and I like to just kind of pretend that We're back there in the days of the
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Apostles before all of these things were written And I like to go to the Bible So whether the
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Reformers said this or that I don't know I disagree with a lot of Martin Luther for example when
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I read his 95 theses on Indulgences and when
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I read the Augsburg Confession it sounds to me like they were still pretty much
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Catholics That's one of the things that concerns me Tom because we've gotten some very angry letters
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Accusing me of not knowing anything about Calvinism Well, if they want to walk in my study and see the many many books that I have read by leading
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Calvinists both past and present Calvin's Institutes that I have all highlighted and Augustine whom
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I've read and Luther and so forth I think I probably know more about Calvinism than most of the people who call themselves
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Calvinists. Well, there you go within five months Dave hunt goes from saying
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I'm ignorant to the Reformers I had asked him about how he can be a synergist and agree with Rome on that subject and and be an opposition to the
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Reformers and that was his answer. I thought I don't know what the Reformers said. I really can't answer that question and Then that moves only five months later.
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So between August of 2000 and January of 2001 all of a sudden Dave hunt has become an expert on Calvinism and all things
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Calvinistic Now a lot of folks have said oh, come on. That's that's just that's just not possible.
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Well, that's right. It isn't possible But you need to recognize that for mr.
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Hunt. Mr. Hunt is not looking to learn Calvinism the book that he has produced in 2002 is
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Identical in its perspective and in the errors of its arguments of what he was saying in 2000 He learned nothing because he wasn't looking to learn anything
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He was looking for quotations and he got his quotations, but that's all that he was doing.
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He wasn't Actually listening to what reform people were saying and the number of times even
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I'm misrepresented in his books Demonstrates this very very clearly now I'm not gonna go back over all the stuff that we did in those dividing line programs before because now we have the book and We can document the errors and we can demonstrate the the problems the book right here, but I'm just simply pointing out
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I sent those dividing line programs to mr. Hunt and I I told him Dave if you go to print with this
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Those of us who love truth will have absolutely no choice but to defend that truth and to demonstrate that you are completely wrong and It's not a matter of saying the
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Dave Hunt's an unbeliever. I believe that Dave Hunt is a believer I really do and in fact what I'm gonna have to do here
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You're all get to listen to I thought I had this all queued up and unfortunately I didn't So y 'all get to listen to me queuing something up on the air.
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Isn't that sort of fun? but I Had a section here.
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Let me just listen to a few things Because God sounds terrible still but he's not willing that any should perish.
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What does that mean? I mean with Lazarus dead With one comment on the draw the word draw and I think he takes that out of its proper meaning
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And I think our people puts it the best one. He says when a man goes to a well, okay I'm looking
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I'm looking here. It's right. It's around here someplace I'm trying to go to the Bible which says for God so loved because he's not willing that any should perish now
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You twist that to make it. Oh, there we go I reject Okay, right there there there we go, he he likes to use term scripture twisting and also
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I'm sounding very strange in my headsets here He likes to use the term scripture twisting So I jumped in this point.
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I want you to listen what he said basically, I raised the issue of tradition and That whole issue comes out very very clearly in this exchange between he and I Now you twist that to make it a little
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I reject Because he's not willing to let the election perish that's redundant.
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No, it's not gonna No, it is not David and I would just like to say since you're gonna make the accusation I'm twisting scripture
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You haven't answered any of the passages that have presented to you You've run away from them to other passages and I'd like to say
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Dave you're utilizing the traditions of men to do so It is your tradition to understand world the way you do all the way you do
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I it is your tradition to not see John 6 in its clarity where it clearly says that all that the father gives him
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It's your tradition to see for known as meaning God Jane Oh Dave Dave these the people that are the most the
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Bible Dave the people that are most Enslaved to tradition are the people who think they don't have any right there the
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I don't have a tradition James There it is. That's going to be We're gonna provide a response
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To mr. Hunt's book. I'm not gonna write a book in response this it wouldn't it's it's Seriously does not contain enough meaningful exegesis or argumentation to warrant a book
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But we are gonna provide a response and I'm gonna do it in two ways. First of all
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We well, obviously we want to have a debate we want to Provide a videotapes people can can actually see can this kind of argumentation withstand cross -examination.
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The answer is no it cannot Can the reform position you better believe it can that was shown that's been shown in every debate
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We've ever done on this and it'll be shown with the greatest clarity when mr. Hunt and I do this debate
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There's no question about that in my mind but the other thing we do is we're going to provide a web -based debate that comes out of our chatroom and It's going to be titled blinded by tradition and there's going to be a link
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To that very quotation. We'll have to get a little bit cleaner than that particular one Because for some reason we seemingly have deleted that particular file.
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I had to pull it off the web We couldn't find it. We looked for it all over the place. But anyways, we will provide a link to that very section where Dave says
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I have no traditions James and Then we're gonna do is we're gonna have all the folks in the chat show not all the folks but A number of the folks in the end of our regular reform folks in the chat channel
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Take sections of Hunt's book and write responses to it So there'll be a main page and then you'll be able to see all the responses as they're written and you can click on them and you can see responses as they're as they're submitted by the people in the chat channel and One of the reasons
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I'm doing in the chat channels because as mr Hunt says he thinks he knows more about Calvinism than most
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Calvinists Well, most of the folks in our chat channel are a bunch of Calvinists So let's find out if that's the case or not.
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So it seems to Seems to work out really well to do it that way. So that's how we're gonna respond to it a full
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Debate the challenges is out there. I'm ready for November December. Mr.
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Hunt. Let's do it Let's let's get this thing nailed down. You said you'd do it You said to me personally that you would do it when we stood at your table.
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I was holding your book in in in my hand I had just seen where you had identified me as someone who is engaging in scripture twisting and I said
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Dave, let's let's debate. Let's let's do this and you had said that would be fine So I think that's something we definitely
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Definitely need to do What's the major problem this book? Well It's real simple
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Mr. Hunt Does not know how to do meaningful exegesis and His research is horrific now
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Dave has made has has made errors in past books and we've noted that that in general the way he operates is he takes his conclusion and Then he raises his conclusion as part of his argumentation
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We're gonna see this in a couple of quotes. I'm gonna be reading from the book even today But that kind of circular argumentation then leads to errors in exegesis as well and even though Amazingly enough.
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Mr. Hunt accuses me of is a Jesus in John chapter 6 without ever touching the text of John chapter 6 himself
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It is it is. Mr. Hunt that again is forced into repeated examples of Isaac Jesus and I'm not the only one who has has said that in the past and we now have 436 pages of Documented evidence of that.
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Hey CDS. You're you're part of the people writing the responses So you better get hold the book and get get studying Anyways, that's someone chat channel for those of you who are not
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Listening live at the particular time. Let me give you an example of what I mean by by not
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Engaging in exegesis. This is another section from our our Conversation with with one to listen to how this goes the article a question that was asked in the
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August Brian call newsletter, which is it seems that Calvinism is gaining influence and as a result is causing controversy and even division in some churches
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I think there's an important subject and I don't recall you ever giving your opinion. Would you please do so in the
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Q &A? section and In that particular response said
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Dave you said something similar to what you just said and that is this Jesus weeps over Jerusalem.
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How often would I have gathered you together as the hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but ye would not Christ could not state more clearly that he truly wants to bless them and that they have rejected him
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But Calvinism changes the whole picture if they are totally depraved and they can't believe in him unless he causes them to do so through irresistible grace
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So would I and you would not for the Calvinist really mean I would not and ye could not
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You just cited Matthew 23 37 the same way on Just before we took our break
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But if you'll look at your Bible a day when the citation in the article is in error
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First I don't know where it says he's weeping over Jerusalem. But secondly your rendition says how often would
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I have gathered you? But the text says how often would I have gathered your children together as the hen gathers her chicks under her wings
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But you would not and I love the reasons I point this out Is that the
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I believe this passage is is frequently misused and in fact, I sent the potter's freedom up to you you'll notice there's a chapter in there called the big three and That's because Norman Geisler in his book chosen, but free which
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I was responding to Cites Matthew 23 37 2nd Peter 3 9 and 1st
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Timothy 2 4 over and over and over again in the course of the of the book And one of the problems is that Matthew 23 37 a is not a soteriological passage
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It's not a passage talking about how men can be saved. It's not discussing the abilities of man It is instead secondly a passage that is in condemnation to the
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Jewish leaders The entire passage beginning all the way back in Matthew 23 at the very beginning talks about the scribes and Pharisees Verse 13 says world you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people
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For you do not enter in yourselves nor do you allow those who are entering to go in? This is the same thing here that these these men have resisted the work of God all along and the most important thing is in Verse 37 is that the ones that it says
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Jesus wants to gather even if you take that to be Soteriological that is I wanted to save them even if you take that out of context
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It's not the same people who are unwilling the ones who are unwilling are the Jewish leaders
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It's their children those who are under them that Jesus wants to gather and the condemnation is the
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Jewish leaders are Standing in Jesus way, so I found it interesting that is it both the last time you just just read it
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And then in the article it was changed I'm sure it's just typographical error, but how often would
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I have gathered you together, but you would not that's not What Jesus said in Matthew 23?
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Yes, well you ask first of all many weeks Luke 19 41
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Then he came near He beheld the city and left over it
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Okay saying if thou hadst known even thou at least in this side day the things which belong unto thy peace and Now they're hid from thine eyes
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He's talking about All of all of Jerusalem well the destruction
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Jerusalem there, but you know but here in Matthew 23 There's no mention of that, but that's just secondary, but but James Oh Jerusalem Jerusalem valve back to Matthew 23 now that kill us the prophets it wasn't just the leaders that killed the prophets
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It was all of the people that killed the prophets And let's forget
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Jesus for the moment. I think Jesus is is is saying he's showing that he's God and All through the
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Old Testament you have God through his prophets the weeping prophet
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Jeremiah who weeps over Jerusalem and And this brings us.
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I think to the crux of the issue because Why does God send his prophets and and weep and and plead and?
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Call upon the people to repent when they can't repent Unless he extends irresistible grace to them, and this is what
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I really I really want to understand this Do you believe that God could if he so desired?
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He could extend irresistible grace to everyone he could save the whole world
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They could all go to heaven, but instead he lets millions. Maybe billions go to hell
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Well we'll get back to Matthew 23 37 because I don't want to leave that but a I don't get the feeling
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David that you are familiar with what the term irresistible grace means well I want you to explain it to me irresistible grace is simply this
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When a reformed person speaks of irresistible grace we are talking about regeneration We are talking about causing a person who is spiritually dead to be brought to spiritual life being born
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Again, and we believe that it is irresistible grace because dead people don't resist anything
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Corpses can't stop you from doing anything when Jesus walked up to the grave of Lazarus in John chapter 11
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He said Lazarus come forth. It is not an issue where Lazarus could sit there in the grave and go well
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I'm not sure I sort of like it in here. I like being dead. I didn't like my sisters Whatever it is no when
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Jesus says Lazarus come forth Lazarus comes forth because what
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God commands happens and so an answer to your question if God Desired to save every single individual by causing them to be regenerated and born again
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It is certainly within the capacity of the God who created all things
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The God that psalm 135 6 says does whatever he desires in the heaven on earth the
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God described Ephesians 1 11 As the one who works all things after the counsel of his will those same prophets
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You're just quoting said there is no one who can stop his hand or ask him. Why are you doing this?
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So if you're asking the question could God save every single individual there is without a question
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That is fully within his capacity. The question is Has it been
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God's eternal will to give his grace which has to be given freely?
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To every single undeserving person or does God have the freedom to give his mercy to whom he will have mercy
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Now you'll notice that in that particular Section never did mr.
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Hunt respond to the fact that he himself had miscited Matthew 23 37 he did not respond to any of the exegesis that I offered and sadly
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That is exactly what we get in. What love is this Calvinism's misrepresentation of God nothing has changed
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Let's let's start looking at it. If you don't have your copy yet Oh Yeah, I guess we do need to take a break don't we
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I'm gonna be looking at page 98 and quotation from the potter's freedom page 98 for those of you who have it and if you don't well
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You'll be able to look at it when you get your copy I suppose we'll continue looking at what love is this
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Dave Hunt's new anti Calvinistic book right after this You And welcome back to dividing line, my name is
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James white we're looking at Dave Hunt's new book which by the way has Exceptional endorsements that's what the back of the book says we have
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Tim LaHaye I'm sorry Tim LaHaye Who who tells us that Calvinism comes
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Paris perilously close to blasphemy? And we have Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel and we have
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Elmer Townes from Liberty University William McDonald Author of more than 80 books in 100 languages including the believers
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Bible commentary and true discipleship. I seemingly missed him We have Chuck Missler's of y2k fame
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Arno frozee from the midnight call ministry Joe Chambers, yes, indeed
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Joe Chambers of Gail Rippling her fame and Bob Wilkin the founder executive director of Gracie Evangelical Society.
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There's There's the endorsements Wow There's a reason for that I'm sending this tape
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Dave Dave this this books bad. That's just all there is to it. We tried to tell you We think
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I think you're a wonderful gentleman in person But the the character of the book is bad, it's nasty and the exegesis is non -existent and historically
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I mean anybody who has the first knowledge of Augustine is going to Rip your lips off quite simply because it's just that bad.
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It's just it it Anyways, let's let's look at some some examples page 98 under the topic born again before salvation
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James White devotes an entire chapter to the inabilities of man He recites a long list of man's sins of his evil of his depravity and explains that he is a fallen creature a slave to sin
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Spiritually dead and capable of doing what is pleasing to God in quote He cites many scriptures concerning man's estrangement from God and the deceitfulness of his heart
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That he can no more change his heart than the leopard can change his spots that his mind is hostile toward God that no man
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Can come to Christ except the Father draw him and so forth White declares quote the reformed assertion is that man cannot understand and embrace the gospel nor respond in faith and repentance toward Christ without God first freeing him from sin and giving him spiritual life regeneration and quote even though the quote is missing in the text that's a little bit of a
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Editing error anyways, then hunt says the following Nowhere, however
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Does he cite a scripture that declares man's inability to believe the gospel or to receive the free gift of eternal life?
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Which God offers to all? Now that's just simply not true
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I Mean he even noted up above notice. I said Incapable of doing what is pleasing to God he cited that That's from Romans chapter 8 verses 7 through 8.
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I have a whole section on how that teaches inability I have a whole section on John 6 44 and how it teaches inability, but when we look at Mr..
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Hunt's attempt to deal with John 6 44 will discover that Despite the fact we discussed it on the air despite the fact that I said in the book despite the fact he quotes from it
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He still does not understand what I'm saying He is blinded by his tradition.
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He cannot hear what I'm saying no matter how hard I try to make it clearer and clearer and clearer then notice the circularity
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Nowhere, however Does he cite a scripture that declares man's inability to believe the gospel or to receive the free gift of eternal self eternal life?
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Which God offers to all? Okay, there's his his Fundamental presupposition
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God offers it to all and when we get into the passages That talk about whether it truly is in that sense just simply a sort of a peanut butter offering it.
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There's no special call of the gospel to the elect He will keep repeating that as an argument against interpreting any scripture in another light.
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That's circular reasoning circular reasoning Then we go to page
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Again for those of you who I mean I ordered this thing back in December it just arrived So some of you might not have it, but I know others that do
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I know Eric Nielsen said he had his and thank you Ian for sending me what I now have
32:54
But anyways, some people do have it page 198 hundred pages later
33:01
Under the topic of unconditional election and if any of you are asking what does he does he ever interact?
33:08
With the actual exegesis of the text that you offer the answer no
33:16
Mr. Hunt can't do it and people you shouldn't say that kind of thing folks listen This is gonna be one of the biggest issues because see
33:23
Dave says I'm an elitist for saying that Dave hunt cannot do exegesis. He is not trained to do it
33:31
Now mr. Hunt is a trained mathematician. He's a CPA He knows how to do numbers
33:38
I am NOT and The parallel would be if he were to write an article in which he presented of How to use particular formulas to Produce depreciation rates and and Figure Certain tables and things like that if he wrote an article on that which he certainly would be capable of doing he's been trained to do it
34:11
It would be just as silly for me to try to write a rebuttal of it as this book is for him because I Haven't taken the time now.
34:23
I'm not saying that that that I couldn't take the time I could stop everything I'm doing go to school
34:28
I have the capacity to learn that and I would assume that mr. Hunt at some point in his life
34:34
He could have taken Greek. He could have taken Hebrew he could have have taken, you know gotten an education in those areas if you'd wanted to but he chose not to and so to in essence say
34:49
These people are all wrong, but I can't deal with the heart of their actual argumentation
34:54
I can only deal with their conclusions and say I don't like their conclusions And argue in circles is not really what we needed that that doesn't edify anybody and that's
35:06
What's this particular? This particular book is all about so under the section of unconditional election
35:14
And here We read the following Even more troubling. Why did
35:20
Calvin's God choose to save so few when he could have saved all I stopped for a moment Mr.
35:25
Hunt, how do you know? It's so few Where do Calvinists say that? Certainly Jesus said there be few that find the way of life
35:35
But doesn't the book of Revelation talk about as many as the sand of the sea? Isn't there a great crowd that surrounds the throne?
35:45
Without apology James White informs us quote Why is one man raised to eternal life and another left to eternal destruction?
35:52
It is according to the kind intention of his will and quote So it is
35:58
God's kindness that causes him to save so few and to damn so many We are aghast at such a concept and we are offended on behalf of our
36:06
God. Well, I'm offended. Mr Hunt that you can't read my book with much clarity Because you sort of use those little ellipses, you know those little dot dot dots and You might want to read the whole section
36:21
I thought I really hope that people will take the time to read the whole section and find out what
36:26
I'm talking about Let me read it But to what we're
36:32
Christians and see the do -do -do -do -do -do in six times The options are gonna say this is on this is in the exegesis section, which by the way is utterly untouched outside I should say this.
36:44
Mr. Hunt does try to argue the meaning of proper Rizzo and Praga nosco However, it doesn't work again, someone who says
36:53
I can't read I can't read Greek should probably not attempt to Say a lot of things that that he had that he's done
37:04
Do do do do do do do do do man the dead a bit of it? Okay The next phrase this is at the bottom page 177 if any of you have the powers for him
37:13
The next phrase answers many a question of mankind. Why has God chosen to save a particular people?
37:18
Why is one man raised to eternal life and are left to eternal destruction? The scriptures offer an answer that is satisfying to the believer but insufficient for the person unwilling to trust in God's goodness
37:28
What is the basis of God's act of predestination? It is according to the kind intention of his will each word is important It is his will not our will and remember this is speaking not of some general plan to save So that it is
37:42
God who initiates but man who actuates This is the specific predestination of individuals to sonship the basis of this specific decree is
37:51
God's will No mention is found of man's will There is the quotation
37:57
There is the citation you're offended. Mr. Hunt Well, I'm offended that you don't deal with the fact that I wasn't giving you my opinion.
38:06
I was exegeting Ephesians chapter 1 Deal with what Ephesians chapter 1 says, mr.
38:11
Hunt because that's what Paul said That's why we need to debate the issue because in cross -examination
38:19
I'm going to ask you to stay in Ephesians chapter 1 verse 6 and Explain the exact meanings of the words
38:29
You brought up what those words mean in your book You brought up what you say proridzo meant you bring up what you think progenosco means
38:40
Let's deal with the text not with your traditions and my traditions.
38:46
Yes, you do have them Dave Yes, you have them and some people asking. Why do you keep referring to mr
38:51
Hunt the first person because I'm gonna send him the tapes just like I did before I Don't say anything behind anybody's backs
39:00
I'm not anything that I say is gonna be right out in front of everybody. Here's the facts. Let's debate the issues
39:07
These are Vitally important points If I'm gonna be consistent on these issues and say that the
39:15
Roman Catholics are wrong about this the Roman Catholics are wrong about that Well, then when Dave Hunt makes the exact same errors the
39:21
Roman Catholics make in Isagetica Lee trying to get around God's Sovereign freedom and salvation then
39:27
I had better be consistent or I'm a hypocrite and I'm not going to be a hypocrite
39:34
That is not honoring and glorifying to God Okay, so So it is
39:42
God's kindness that causes him to save so few and to damn so many I never said that of course I Don't know how many
39:49
God's gonna save but I know one thing if he saves one unregenerate God -hating sinner it's grace unknown and Only when you get rid of the height of God's holiness and the depth of man's depravity
40:04
Can you even argue the way that mr. Hunt is currently arguing in his book? Well, they're worse.
40:13
Let me just skip over this one because this one's gonna take a few minutes There's a bunch of stuff about the meaning of the whole world there was something here about I may have not put the
40:25
My little marquee marquee thingy on the thing. I wanted to show here because I there was a section where I Look at through the historical section things like that.
40:36
I noticed a number of errors and things like that But there was a whole section on what it means
40:45
Unconditional election and I was just Again, it's sort of you know, if I had hair you could
40:51
I could try to pull it out, but Mr. Hunt cites my book.
40:57
It says see White has a whole section here on unconditional election a necessity
41:03
But all he quotes are men. He just quotes men's opinions Problem was if you read the potter's freedom
41:13
That's the chapter where I'm demonstrating that Norman Geisler's redefinition of Unconditional election is a historical it is a chapter.
41:22
That's basically nothing more to demonstrate that what he calls unconditional election Which means it's unconditional from God's part but conditional for man's part is not what anyone has ever meant by unconditional election
41:33
So why in the world you'd cite that and not put it in its proper context as to what I was talking about Again, I'm gonna
41:40
I'm gonna assume that's ignorance and not dishonesty because it certainly would be dishonest if you knew what it was about to make that kind of presentation
41:49
I was just gonna bring that one up, but I can't find the place where I marked it I do want to however and this is
41:55
I'm gonna spend a little time on this one Open your Bibles if you have them to acts 1348 when I was in st.
42:00
Louis For some reason the First verse
42:08
I looked up now, there's not a topic index in this book. Unfortunately, I wish there was but there is a scripture index of Acts 1348 the reason being if you go back and you listen to the dividing lines we did before even in the letters
42:21
I sent to mr. Hunt I pointed out that his his attempt to get around acts 1348 simply did not add up in light of scripture
42:28
It did not add up in light of the construction that's found in the Greek text
42:33
I pointed out Luke's constant use of The term
42:39
Tasso and its meaning I looked I pointed out to him the periphrastic construction all the rest that stuff
42:46
And in light of all that I had hoped that Possibly in the production of the book.
42:52
He would come up with some other type of answer the way did he did not He chose to ignore the refutation that was provided to him
43:00
And so I'm gonna point out all the errors here and there's a bunch of them And I would invite people who love truth to contact.
43:09
Mr. Hunt and say Dave Why did you do this? Why in light of the fact that she already had received correction is why do you go to press with stuff that you've been shown?
43:21
Is not right and I'm telling you the reason is very simple The reason is very simple
43:26
Dave Hunt is blinded by tradition Dave Hunt is blinded by tradition.
43:32
That's just all there is to it So let's look at acts 1348. This is found on pages 210 through 211
43:41
In mr. Hunt's book pages 210 to 11. There's about page and a half that deals with acts 1348
43:49
Let me just read you what he says and this is this is Give you an idea of You know
43:57
How the argumentation functions here One of the Calvinist favorite proof text is acts 1348 where we read that as many as were ordained to eternal life believed
44:06
Vance says and by the way, he this is just a warmed over version of Vance if you want to know
44:12
I mean, he really really relies upon that book and that book is horrible but you know, that's
44:19
Many Arminians will quote from other Arminians That's where how it works Vance says every Calvinist no matter what else he believes uses this verse to prove unconditional election
44:26
Nettleton claims that is this verse that made him a Calvinist white devotes four pages to it now notice
44:32
He knows I devoted four pages to it why he doesn't respond to what's in those four pages is a good question
44:41
Palmer exalts here is another text with stunning clarity for whoever will read the Bible without preconceived notions
44:46
The stark simplicity of this text is astounding in fact ordained to eternal life while it is so shown in the major translations as white is quick to point out is
44:57
At best a questionable rendering and many Greek scholars call it a wrong translation
45:03
The Greek word is Tasso and has a variety of meanings and usages. It is found eight times in the
45:09
New Testament and None of them carries the meaning of a decree from God nor of something that is unchangeable or eternal
45:16
So there is no basis for assigning that meaning here now There are no footnotes there.
45:23
There were no footnotes on many Greek scholars we aren't told who these people are and The assertion that was just made no foundation is given for that, but I continue
45:36
The Liddell and Scott Greek Dictionary offers a number of alternate meanings but ordain or For ordain is not one of them in 1st
45:48
Corinthians 16 15 the KJV for example Tasso is translated addicted the house of Stephanus have addicted themselves to the ministry of the
45:55
Saints in Acts 15 to it is translated Determined decided they determined that Paul and Barnabas should go up to Jerusalem Many Greek experts suggest the same idea here that the
46:04
Gentiles had disposed themselves ie determined to believe Now stop for just a moment.
46:12
Listen What does he say they're saying that the that they had disposed themselves to believe?
46:20
That's his assertion. Let's continue on Several authorities trace the
46:25
KJV is wrong rendering to the corrupt Latin Vulgate which as te page points out has prayed or on the
46:32
I'll get it right pray or do not see unfairly dot dot dot end of quote
46:39
Cook's commentary reads the AV authorized version ie KJV has followed the Vulgate rather it should read were set in order for ie disposed for eternal life as in Syriac and Repeatedly in Josephus as many as had placed themselves in the ranks of those who welcomed the offer of eternal life and quote
46:58
Likewise Dean Alford translated as many as were disposed to eternal life believed Clearly there are differences of opinion concerning the technical considerations of the
47:08
Greek which only the experts are competent to discuss That being the case we ought to come down the side of a rendering which harmonizes with the rest of Scripture There are dozens of passages which declare in the plainest language
47:18
The gospel is offered to whosoever will believe it and that God desires all mankind to be saved
47:24
Consequently it would be improper to adopt here a questionable interpretation as the basis for rejecting the overwhelming weight of Scripture The expositors
47:32
Greek Testament says there is no countenance here for the absolutum decretum of the Calvinists 80
47:38
Robertson says virtually the same thing in almost the same words The word ordained is not the best translation here
47:43
The Jews had voluntarily rejected the Word of God on the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the
47:49
Jews had rejected Why these Gentiles here raid arranged themselves on God's side
47:54
Luke does not tell us this verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency
48:00
There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation So the experts disagree
48:07
Like almost every other Greek word Tosca has several meanings the best way to determine which meaning applies is to consider the context
48:13
When we do that the choice becomes clear the Jews have just rejected the gospel And that is why Paul has turned the
48:19
Greeks in Acts 13 46 Paul says the Jews But seeing that ye put in put it from you and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life lo
48:27
We turn to the Gentiles verse 48 presents the contrast between the Jews who had set themselves against the gospel and the
48:33
Gentiles who disposed themselves to receive it Thus it is saying that as many Greeks as were disposed to eternal life believed
48:40
That meaning is at least allowable from the word Tosca and it seems to be demanded by the context
48:45
Why not accept it because to do so would undermine Calvinism we can find no other reason well
48:54
There's the section Wow, where do we start? Well, first of all, we will note that even though Mr.
49:04
Hunt Recognizes the four pages that were included in the
49:11
Potter's Freedom There is no discussion of what is actually said there there was no discussion of The syntax there is no discussion of the grammar
49:22
There is no discussion of anything in it at all that happens over and over again in this particular book
49:31
I provided beginning on page 187 of the book The translations that read ordained to eternal life
49:38
King James Version ASV New King James Version New Revised Standard Version NASB Update New Living Translation New English Translation since then dragging the microphone over here a little bit.
49:51
Oh Man I can't read the size of my screen this far away. Let me turn here. Let's see ASV RSV ESV ISV King James Version NET the
50:03
Roman Catholic NAB Let's see here NASB 95
50:09
A New King James Version New Living Translation NRSV and Good News Bible.
50:16
I Should note I Have found two translations and this is rather I find this absolutely positively
50:27
Precious I have found two translations. Well, one isn't a translation the Living Bible the
50:34
Living Bible paraphrase in a Footnote gives disposed
50:44
So there's the Living Bible paraphrase. Now. Remember Dave Hunt is is is King James. He's not
50:50
King James only but he's King James preferred And he has to reject the King James at this point
50:55
He has to reject all the modern translations, but last week those in the channel know what's about to come up.
51:01
I did discover one English translation that agrees Yes, Dean Alford in his
51:10
Commentary does render it disposed. That's not a translation But I have found one translation done by a committee rather than an individual
51:21
That renders it disposed You know what it is? The only one I know of is the
51:27
New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses Yep, Dave Hunt agrees with the
51:33
New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses the NWT renders it exactly the same way
51:42
And they don't have any more reason to do it then than Dave Hunt did Let's let's start taking this apart demonstrate all the errors here
51:54
This is not a questionable reading the reason that the vast majority of translations render this is simple exegesis and Though mr.
52:04
Hunt did not address this Paul I'm sorry
52:10
Luke uses the term in Luke 7 8 and there it is
52:18
For I also am a man placed under authority He used it in Acts 13 48 he used in Acts 15 to The brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others them should go up to Jerusalem.
52:31
He used it in Acts 22 10 Where it says there would be told of all that has been appointed for you to do and Acts 28 23
52:41
When they had set a day for Paul, none of those are translated as disposed
52:47
Secondly, mr. Hunt never deals with the fact that this is a periphrastic construction This is a periphrastic construction
52:55
I explained this in the book, but let's be honest and again This is not mean to say this Dave Hunt doesn't know what a periphrastic construction is and it's
53:05
Dave Hunt Who is casting doubt upon the clarity of Acts 13 48?
53:11
It's Dave Hunt who's saying that the Greek experts disagree here, but he doesn't give us any Greek experts
53:17
All he gives us is one he gives us Dean Alford he gives other people's interpretations He does not give us one person who argues the grammar and the lexical meanings the words not once Now it's interesting
53:32
He does make one reference To a Greek lexicon and I remember when
53:38
I first picked this up. I just I Just wanted to scream Because Remember what he read remember what he said and I invite all of you right to the brain call and ask mr.
53:51
Hunt about this The Greek word is tosso and has a variety of meanings and usages page 210
53:57
It is found eight times in a New Testament and none of them carries the meaning of a decree from God nor of something does
54:02
Unchangeable or eternal so there is no basis for signing that meaning here. That is circular argumentation Here's the here's the quote the
54:09
Liddell and Scott Creek Dictionary offers a number of alternate meanings But ordain or for ordain is not one of them
54:16
When my eyes fell on that I just rolled my eyes back And we have someone in in Chandler once while monogon and whenever the guys do something silly
54:25
She says monogon rolls her eyes, and so now the rest of us say you know now I roll her eyes and things like that.
54:30
It's sort of funny I guess you'd have to have a British sense of humor to get that but anyways Mmm CDS is in channel, and we have the other silly
54:40
Britain the other room so we can do British humor Anyways, I rolled my eyes, and there's a reason for that Liddell and Scott is not a coin a
54:49
Greek lexicon Liddell and Scott is not a coin a Greek lexicon if he's gonna make this argument
54:55
Then how about using a lexicon of the language? We're actually talking about would that but would that be helpful it would be helpful wouldn't it?
55:01
Let's go to Brown driver. You know the proper habits Hebrew. Let's go to be dag. Let's go to Bauer Donker aren't in Gingrich Why don't we use that?
55:11
Why don't we use something? That's actually about the New Testament? But I started thinking I thought well, okay, so Dave Hunt doesn't know what
55:20
Greek lexicons are that's makes sense he as he himself says it might as well be Chinese Well, then why is he quoting from one?
55:27
Why is he trying to make it look like he does? and then I went back to my room, and I had my my laptop with me and If you've got
55:35
Bible works 5 .0. You happen to have that Adele's got Greek lexicon. I looked it up and You know there's a lot of Greek there, and if you can't read
55:45
Greek that may be confusing to you, but if you go down to section three
55:51
Number two let me read it for you to a point or Dane order or prescribe
56:00
Let me read let me read mr.. Hunt again But or Dane or for Dane is not one of them
56:07
Liddell and Scott Greek lexicon number three number two to a point or Dane Hmm.
56:15
I guess we just didn't see that one there. Did we I guess we did not You say boy you're being mean to mr..
56:24
Hunt Mr.. Hunt was told over and over again don't put yourself in a position of being refuted like this because You don't have any way of defending yourself
56:40
He says were the scripture twisters. He says were the ones misrepresenting, but mr..
56:47
Hunt You got the wrong lexicon a and then you misrepresent it B, and that's not a good thing
56:56
Well I'm late for my break, and we need to take it because I need to Take a breath and continue on with acts 1348 we're talking about what love is this
57:06
Calvinism's misrepresentation of God or is it Dave Hunt's? Misrepresentation of Calvinism, that's what we're discovering.
57:13
We'll be right back And welcome back to dividing line.
57:21
My name is James white. We're looking at acts 1348 and Dave Hunt's errors concerning it I had just pointed out that while mr..
57:28
Hunt says the Liddell and Scott Greek lexicon, which is a classical not a coin a
57:34
Greek lexicon hence It would not be the first thing you would turn to in looking for meanings
57:39
But he says it does not give as the meaning ordain and yet It does section three number two to a point ordain order prescribe and interestingly enough it
57:49
Lists as one from xenophone it lists as one of the examples Ta ta ta mena which those of you who are looking at the
57:59
Greek realize it is likewise a In the very same form that one specifically they're perfect passive participle, but it's a different Different gender, but it is actually listed under Ordain as one of the meanings so you could in fact quite rightly cite
58:22
Liddell and Scott as Substantiating the meaning of the term as it's found in acts 1348
58:29
So what do we have then well? We have circular argumentation. We have the miss citation
58:35
Liddell and Scott then we have the citation of 1st Corinthians 1615 in the
58:41
King James Version King James Version why the King James Version because it says in for example new
58:47
American Standard now I urge you brother. You know the household Stephanus that they were the first fruits of Achaia and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the
58:56
Saints Well, that's nice, but folks. That's not how you determine meanings of words That is not a parallel to a paraphrastic construction in Acts 1348.
59:08
I Mean that that's this this isn't if someone used this kind of argumentation to argue against the
59:15
Trinity Mr.. Hunt would jump all over them and rightly so he wouldn't be able to prove
59:21
Why but he could go to people who could show him that and we would all recognize that it's horrific and bad
59:29
Argumentation, but that's what he's utilizing anyways Then he tries to say that the
59:35
King James is wrong rendering is due the Latin Vulgate well I'm sure the King James only like I hope
59:40
I Hope mr. Hunt Will point this out to mr.
59:45
Chambers Because you see mr. Chambers is a gale rippling or King James only person and he's endorsed the book
59:54
But would he agree that the King James is rendering is based upon the Latin Vulgate the corrupt
59:59
Latin Vulgate probably not Probably not no the
01:00:05
King James rendering does not come from the Latin Vulgate it happens to be perfectly right the new American stairs
01:00:10
Does not come from Latin Vulgate Dean Alford is the only person he can come up with who has said disposed to eternal life
01:00:20
Now notice There's two different renderings here, and mr. Hunt seemingly didn't catch this part remember
01:00:27
I stopped and said notice. He said many Greek experts. We are not told who they are I'd like some names
01:00:33
Please suggest the same idea here that the Gentiles had disposed themselves to believe and Alfred says disposed to eternal life those are two different things those are two different things
01:00:49
You see the only way you could do it is to say if you're going to completely misrepresent Luke's use of Tasso You're going to ignore the paraphrastic construction because and and see
01:00:59
I told Dave this But he doesn't listen this paraphrastic construction has as its tense meaning a pluperfect
01:01:09
That means that if you're going to use disposed that means and this is where Alford's error was
01:01:16
Alfred's wrong about this That the action of being disposed to eternal life had to precede this
01:01:28
So they had disposed themselves to eternal life before Paul preached to them
01:01:33
Can you imagine this? Why is it that all modern
01:01:39
English translations other than the New World Translation render it this way because that's what it means and Mr..
01:01:46
Hunt does a Tremendous job at trying to cast doubt upon the clarity of God's Word at this point, but he fails he fails and I can guarantee you
01:02:01
When we do this debate we're going to have a period of cross -examination on Acts 13 48, and I'm gonna ask mr.
01:02:08
Hunt mr. Hunt Why did the Holy Spirit of God have
01:02:13
Luke write this as a paraphrastic? Construction with a pluperfect meaning where he uses a perfect passive participle
01:02:23
With an imperfect form of I me How do you answer that mr. Hunt?
01:02:31
How dare you cast Dispersions upon the clarity of the text of Scripture mr.
01:02:38
Hunt How do you do that, that's what the New World Translation does not what the text of the
01:02:45
Word of God does Well Clearly there are differences of opinion
01:02:51
He says concerning the technical considerations of the Greek which only the experts are competent to discuss then why are you discussing them mr.
01:02:58
Hunt? Why are you discussing them? Why are you presenting this? I don't know of anyone
01:03:05
Dean Alford doesn't bother to deal with paraphrastic constructions He doesn't he doesn't deal with what the tense meaning of a paraphrastic construction is in his commentary
01:03:14
You know why because he can't there isn't any question about it
01:03:22
When you have to come up with the rendering that no one But the New World Translation has ever put into print as an actual rendering of an edition of the
01:03:29
Bible that should tell you something It did not tell mr.
01:03:35
Hunt why? blinded by tradition Blinded by tradition
01:03:44
So in light of all that information isn't it amazing to read those last few sentences again That meaning is at least allowable from the word
01:03:51
Tasso not as Luke uses it and not in a paraphrastic Construction and it seems to be demanded by the context.
01:03:57
It is not why not accept it because to do so would undermine Calvinism We can find no other reason.
01:04:02
I remember I wrote to mr. Hunt. I sent him the tapes where I discussed acts 1348
01:04:08
I discussed his errant rendering of it as disposed. He had this information before him and he still says the things that he says here as I said to Dave Hunt, I believe that Christian authors have a responsibility to the truth first and foremost
01:04:31
And that's why you should not write this book. Mr. Hunt because you are not in a position to do so That's all there is to it
01:04:41
Am I passionate about that? You better believe it when you start telling me when I start seeing people that I believe are
01:04:46
Christians And that's why I hold he and Norm Geisler to a higher standard. I expect this out of others
01:04:51
I expect this out of unbelievers. I don't expect it out of fellow believers On any other subject if it was on the
01:04:59
Trinity if it was on the Resurrection Dave Hunt would catch these things
01:05:04
And he'd say that's wrong but when it comes to God's freedom and man's creaturely responsibilities before God all of a sudden the idol of free will pops up and you can actually get
01:05:17
Believers to start attacking the clarity of God's Word that should not be
01:05:23
That simply should not be my my my page 215 as a staunch
01:05:36
Calvinist white informs us. Why is one man raised to eternal life? No left to eternal destruction. It is according to the kind intention of his will
01:05:44
So it is God's kindnesses causes him to damn so many we are astounded at such a concept That's just a repeat of something was said before But have you noticed something?
01:05:55
This Happened with with with George Bryson and I I'm I keep writing the folks over in California You know, we really need the tapes really need the tapes.
01:06:04
Come on. We need the tapes and it's the tapes Because we want to be able to play sections this but mr Bryson really believed this was very clear in his writing in the
01:06:12
CRI Journal and then in the debate all he had to do was to Quote John Calvin saying things like that.
01:06:21
Everybody's just Google Oh Wow, that's terrible
01:06:27
It didn't work that way you see he's quoting me on Ephesians chapter 1 and if you go to Ephesians chapter 1 and Allow the text to speak for itself.
01:06:39
That's what it says and Folks who are in love with God's Word and in obedience to it rather than their traditions are gonna let the word say what the word says now
01:06:53
Let me jump over cuz it's already 13 after we're gonna run out of time. I won't make sure to get this one
01:07:01
Page 333 Calvinism is best foot forward now notice.
01:07:07
This doesn't even come up until way late in the book and there's a reason for that Let me read this section to you
01:07:18
There's this there's this whole section on on John 6 and Of course, what's what's the argument in John 6 and John 6 44?
01:07:29
It's real easy. He just jumps over John 12 32 assumes a interpretation of John 12 32
01:07:36
Then You know just dismisses it doesn't doesn't deal with any of the exegesis of John 6 that's offered and In the
01:07:45
Potter's freedom, but here's here's section page 333 The Calvinist best foot forward this book is not intended to win a purely intellectual debate
01:07:53
We were defending our God's honor and character notice our God's honor and character in The process great care has been taken not to miss misunderstand
01:08:01
Calvinism or to misjudge its proponents I'm sorry, Dave. I know you may feel you put out an effort
01:08:08
But every Calvinist I've talked to who tried to work with you on this subject knows better So let's carefully consider whites arguments as he develops them for the context
01:08:18
John 6 37 to 45 a scripture which he calls the clearest exposition of what critics call extreme
01:08:23
Calvinism actually that was just Norm Geisler in Examining whites and other Calvinist methods of interpretation one often finds eisegesis
01:08:32
Forcing the text to say what it doesn't say in order to fit their theories white rights And then you have a quotation all sorts of ellipses.
01:08:39
It doesn't even make a whole lot of sense the way it's quoted But let me just give it to you the way he's he hasn't cited
01:08:46
Literally Jesus says no man is able to come to me These are words of incapacity and they are placed in a universal context all men lack the ability to come to Christ in of themselves
01:08:56
That is Paul's dead in sin Ephesians 2 1 and unable to please God Romans 8 8 it is the reformed doctrine of total depravity man's inability here being taught by the
01:09:05
Lord who knows the hearts of all men all Men would be left in the hopeless position of unable to come unless God acts and he does by drawing some
01:09:14
But not all men unto Christ and that's some but not all is put into Into brackets and I need to double -check what that's actually
01:09:24
Therefore no man can will to come to Christ outside of this divine drawing reform scholars assert that the ones who are drawn are the
01:09:31
Ones who are given by the Father to the Son ie the elect and if you actually quoted all of it
01:09:36
That's where I would go back to John 637 and prove that Obviously then it cannot be asserted that the Father is drawing every single individual human being for universalism
01:09:45
Everyone is saved would be the result for all who are drawn are likewise raised up at the last day
01:09:52
Well, at least a part of it got quoted Mr. Hunt comments. We're in this passage
01:09:58
Just Jesus mentioned total depravity or dead in sin or incapacity or unable to please
01:10:04
God or anything about an elect That's the first sentence The first response to all that argumentation
01:10:11
John 6 is where in this passage. Did Jesus mention total depravity? When he says no man is able because of course that comes from total depravity dead in sin that would come to the same thing incapacity
01:10:26
No, man is able Who do not I in Greek Dave that means unable?
01:10:35
Is that incapacity or unable to please God? Well, I quoted Romans 8 8 at that point
01:10:41
That's where that came from or anything about an elect Well, what I said was those in John 637 all the
01:10:49
Father gives me will come to me. That's the elect That's what I said. I didn't say Jesus used those words this kind of argumentation would be like quoting
01:10:59
Matthew 28 19 through 20 and a Jehovah's Witness going. I didn't see the word Trinity in there
01:11:04
I didn't see the word hypostasis or hypostatic Union in there. You're you're you're engaging in eisegesis
01:11:12
No, just let what I said stand on its own None of these
01:11:17
Calvinistic theories is there nor is any part of tulip even implied you hear that folks
01:11:24
There is no part of tulip even implied in John 637 through 44 according to Dave Hunt Not even implied
01:11:34
Folks that's not even honest Even even You know our minions recognize at least that they have to deal with the passage
01:11:46
Wow And he goes on none of these Calvinistic theories is there nor is any part of tulip even implied
01:11:53
Jesus does not say the drawing must be limited to The elect or universalism would be the result or the drawing is either irresistible or unconditional
01:12:00
Dave. I Just pointed out in the text that you quoted That all who are drawn by the father to the son are raised up on the last day
01:12:16
The him who is drawn is the him who is raised up now if y 'all go back and listen to the discussion with Mr.
01:12:30
Hunt on Kxcg and I can't achieve kpxq that's on the website
01:12:37
I Explained that then too, and the problem is he didn't get then
01:12:46
Is it is it my fault? Was I not clear or is it possible is?
01:12:53
It possible it possibly Maybe mr. Hunt is so Committed to his tradition
01:13:00
That anything that doesn't fit within the narrow confines of that tradition Simply is not heard
01:13:08
Can't be therefore. I'm not gonna listen to that. I'm not gonna listen to what you say
01:13:16
The text is right there, but Dave Hunt says up nothing about Calvinism there We all know differently
01:13:26
Of course my hope is My hope is that a person who really is thinking about these things who picks up this book
01:13:38
Will a go get the potter's freedom and see that's what I really said and be even reading what
01:13:43
I said as It's quoted by mr. Hunt They'll go wait a minute
01:13:48
David there There is a lot there that seems to be and that day that that's that's not good response to say well
01:13:56
There's the word total depravity doesn't appear here if it says that no man is able
01:14:03
That's exactly what he's talking about so that that's not really an answer is it That's my hope my hope of course is is that just as with chosen but free a
01:14:17
Book that hopelessly confused the issue By giving a response we clarified the issue and there have been many people
01:14:24
I had a man come up to me at the debate with George Bryson George Bryson's arguments are very much parallel with Dave Hunt's and he said to me after the debate was over he said
01:14:36
I hated Calvinism and Then I read your book and I read on Romans 9 and of course what does
01:14:43
Dave do with Romans 9 well pretty much? You know what can Armenians do Pretty much takes the national thing where you can fit nations in and then when it gets down to Pharaoh and stuff where he has
01:14:54
To recognize that it has to do with persons and not with just nations Tries to use the foreknowledge argument does he respond to any of the?
01:15:05
Lexical information Given well believe it or not. Yeah, sort of Let me let me note it here because some of you're gonna go you've got to be kidding me
01:15:16
Yeah, there's there's Romans 9 and It says things like this there is nothing in Romans 9 20 24 to indicate the
01:15:28
God the Potter causes anyone to be or to do evil And you're all sitting there going Where did we say otherwise, but remember he just simply
01:15:39
Well this this gives an excellent example Any of you who have looked at the justification of God by John Piper?
01:15:46
Recognize it's a pretty complex book, and there's reason for that it was his doctoral dissertation and doctoral dissertations are well they tend to be fairly complex at times and So that's what it was listen to what is on page 267
01:16:04
One wonders why Piper flooded the justification of God with Greek and Hebrew words and whose and those alphabets without the
01:16:10
English equivalents Which authors usually supply? Thus his book can be fully understood only by Greek and Hebrew scholars while other readers must take his word for what he says
01:16:24
Well Dave that's the nature of doctoral dissertations, I'm sorry, but That's just the nature of things you deal with the original languages.
01:16:34
That's sort of how it functions, but um Basically what he does is I'm also on page 267.
01:16:41
I'm accused of ducking something when God God hardened Pharaoh's heart to further his purposes for Israel in Egypt to manifest his power more fully and Specifically to complete his judgment upon the gods of Egypt He was in fact only helping
01:16:54
Pharaoh to do what the tyrant wanted to do At the very outset when he sent Moses to Egypt God declared
01:16:59
I am sure the king of Egypt will not let you go Exodus 319 This was Pharaoh's disposition from the very beginning before a word was said about God hardening his heart
01:17:07
Yet Calvinists are almost unanimous in their avoidance of this scripture Passing it by they begin their comments with Exodus 421
01:17:14
I will harden his heart that he shall not let the people go like the others pink ignores 319 and writes did not
01:17:20
God Harden his heart before the plagues were sent upon Egypt see Exodus 421 white to avoid 319 and he also uses 421 as foundational so does
01:17:29
Piper in Building his lengthy argument concerning the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. He relies heavily upon 421 Well, there's a little problem
01:17:35
Dave that doesn't use the term hardened over there in chapter 3 Are you saying that the hardening of his heart was based upon God knowing something about Pharaoh But even when you go over to 319, it doesn't help you out much at all either
01:17:50
Dave 319 but I know the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.
01:17:58
Oh, wait a minute What about Pharaoh's free will? Compels him
01:18:04
I Thought God didn't use compulsion 320 so I'll stretch out my hand and strike the
01:18:13
Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them after that He will let you go. Well, how do you know that God?
01:18:19
Well, God just looks into the future and he knows no, it's because God is sovereign and I will make the
01:18:25
Egyptians verse 21 Favorably disposed toward this people so that when you leave you will not go empty -handed
01:18:32
Well, wait a minute How could God make Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people of Israel?
01:18:38
He's playing with their free will Oh No Folks, I'm sorry.
01:18:46
Maybe I shouldn't Go. Oh, no But he didn't even quote all of 319 that says unless a mighty hand compels him that's the consistency of Arminian argumentation a part of a passage here.
01:19:06
Let's ignore the exegesis. Let's ignore the original languages All in the service of The idol of free will
01:19:19
My goodness, it's all over the place absolutely all over the place
01:19:26
Well, we're out of time for this program. So What's my summary statement?
01:19:31
Well? God has a purpose in everything and evidently
01:19:38
God has a purpose in Having Dave hunt write this book. I Hope part of it
01:19:45
Obviously in the final analysis is to bring honor and glory to himself. It will resound was honor and glory and Just as chosen but free did through its refutation
01:19:56
This which is a number of notches below Norm Geisler's work as far as having any meaningful argumentation to it
01:20:04
We'll do the same thing but sadly it seems to be It's seems to be the way to bring honor and glory to God through this is to demonstrate the danger of being blinded by your tradition
01:20:15
Dave hunt doesn't believe he has traditions. He does it has caused him to suggest for example a
01:20:22
Translation of Acts 1348 that's found only in the New World translation of Jehovah's Witnesses What would cause someone to go that far?
01:20:32
It would cause someone to go that far Because they are so deeply entrenched in Their own tradition and you can be an evangelical and be just as absolutely positively blinded to the authority of tradition in your life as any
01:20:51
Roman Catholic and That's what we have here All of us have our traditions
01:20:57
But those who know they have their traditions are then in a position to be able to examine those traditions in the light of Scripture And that's what this book should teach us
01:21:09
Should teach us to be fair in our research He's not fair with Augustine or Calvin in any way shape or form doesn't seem to understand the difference between the
01:21:16
Dauntess controversy in the plaguing controversy and all the rest that stuff and we can try to Get into some of those things
01:21:21
I hope some of the folks who like to read and write history will respond to some of those elements because there's much to be said
01:21:27
But my biggest concern is of course that it will It will cause people to ask the same questions over and over again
01:21:33
My hope is of course that since there are answers to every single one of these objections That mr. Hunt brings up that we will be very quick and ready to provide them and that as a result many people who otherwise would never have been
01:21:45
Exposed to the truth the doctrines of grace will just as with the Potter's freedom come To recognize those things and the role that they play in our evangelism and in the church
01:21:56
And and everything else that's obviously what I hope will take place mr. Hunt Wonderful man, very personable
01:22:04
But you're wrong and what you've done in this book. You've been told that before you chose to go ahead with it.
01:22:10
Okay, mr Hunt let's debate Friday night Saturday morning
01:22:15
Saturday night lots of cross -examination Moderated so that we can't avoid the passages so we can't avoid the issue that we can't just run off someplace else
01:22:27
We have to answer the direct questions Let's put the video cameras up Let's make sure we've got the audio tape running as a backup and let's do the debate and let's distribute it
01:22:40
Let's let's let's say right up front that it will be offered on the front page of Alpha -Omega ministries and the
01:22:48
Berean call both together Let's make an agreement right up front That we will make sure that this is made available to the widest possible audience
01:23:01
Okay That's what we need to do and mr.
01:23:06
Hunt. I really really really ask that you be able to very quickly I want to very quickly give to people the
01:23:17
Information as to when this is going to be let's set a date November December, let's set a date right now to be able to do it and Make that tape available.
01:23:29
Sorry, we didn't take phone calls today But we barely had time to get through Just the things that I had marked and that was a very very quick run through its 436 pages long
01:23:40
But I hope that was useful to you and so let's Press on with getting this debate set up because I think those of you listening on the dividing line
01:23:48
You'd like to hear that you'd like to see that and I think those people who are going to be
01:23:54
Confused about Dave hunt is saying need to hear it as well. Thanks for listening today We'll talk to you next week here on the dividing line
01:24:34
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