Jeff Durbin Joins James to Discuss Andy Stanley and Kwaku El

Jeff Durbin on Andy Stanley and the Apologia Church Connection

Welcome to the dividing line. It is a Thursday and we have a tremendous amount of stuff to get to. I mentioned on Twitter and Facebook Yesterday that I would be joined in studio by a special guest. And I'm not sure that someone who's filled in for him before is really, you know, all that guesty but I Am joined, of course.

As most of you probably guessed especially since I mentioned we were going to be reviewing this particular video by none other than the ninja himself Jeff Durbin and There's Jeff hiding over in the corner.

He's not really hiding. Hey guys. But I Was gonna say, you know in the past I have introduced you as a pastor of Apologia Church. It's a little bit weirder this time around this first time I've been on since things have changed.

That's right fellow elder now. Yep. Yep. Yeah fellow pastor. Is that who is this more surreal for you or me? I mean, I think probably me me. Yeah. Yeah. Is it weird for you? None of us saw it coming. None of us saw it coming.

No, no, but I mean, you know.

You and Luke started.

About 10 years ago, but technically 12 years ago Apology of Christian Ministries. It's morphed into Apologia Church. Yeah, right.

So.

But looking down the road, this wasn't really no never no. It was just survival at the beginning. Oh Yeah, but you know nine months ago, yeah never would have thought no no if you did. Yeah, I've thought about if you would have gone back and told 18 year old me that it would look like this I would never have believed you as and now it's not that's impossible.

That's that's a joke.

You think you think about everything and what the Lord does and you just go not couldn't have ever worked out that way. Yeah, that's why it's really good that only God knows the future and we don't. That's right.

Because that would be could you imagine we would mess it up angst and everything we'd have if we I'm gonna do what?

You're gonna ask me to go where. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, or we would try to manipulate it along the way if we knew the future.

But but especially.

I.

Don't remember exactly when it started, but we've both commented to each other. I don't know how many times that we will travel around the United States, but.

Overseas as well. Yeah, and.

So far, I've still done more of the overseas stuff. Doing a lot more of the overseas stuff. But anywhere I go Australia and South Africa and Russia and Ukraine and The Netherlands United Kingdom Germany, etc, etc.

You you speak a lion forms afterwards you're signing books you're taking selfies you're talking to people and. When names are mentioned, mm-hmm, it goes one of two directions.

I.

Watch Apologia and Jeff Durbin and that's how I found out about you or yep I found out about Jeff Durbin from watching you. Yep. And of course YouTube does part of that because it seemingly connects us together on the on the side.

Yeah, because we've done so much stuff together. Anyways, but it's just it's everywhere. That's just. Everyone just sees that. And when we started talking about this and talking about even just going to apology It was like you'll you you have to testify I I met with all the elders and I said having me as a member of church is not the easiest thing.

The Andy Stanley Interview and the Self-Attesting Word of God

Yeah, and not so much because I cause problems as I just bring my own set with me. Including lots of people who really really really don't like me. The only person I know of That is disliked more and I'm not including President Trump.

Is Doug Wilson? Yeah. His his derangement quotients way way beyond either one of them. He's also a good friend of ours. Oh, well, and there you go so. But I said it does seem the same people who hate me or the same people hate you.

So it's not like we're really adding that's why it's a match made in heaven because it's not like we're not used to it. It's like no big deal. It's just you know, oh, hey, you see what Steven Anderson said.

So, but yeah, and then you know, it was sort of natural as soon as soon as started tending I I don't sit in the back real well, you know, and just yeah just show up and do nothing and so we were. I Just sort of started, you know, you're gonna ask we're gonna talk to each other and there's gonna be interaction.

And it just you know one thing led to another. Or if you're gifted as a pastor. It's gonna naturally it's gonna happen organically. Gonna happen organically. So.

So With in light of that one of the first positive things that has come from that.

I think.

Was I'm in studio in London at premier Christian radio. Yeah on Chapter Street just matter of blocks from where I was staying and I get done doing two programs with Justin Brierley and He says so who would you suggest I have on with Andy Stanley?

Now I think I mentioned you part of what was in the back of my Interpretation of what Justin said was and it can't be you. Because I don't want to scare him off completely right, you know type of an idea.

And so he I think it was when we were we just finished the two. I don't think it was beforehand but yeah, it was toward the end and so first thought across my mind I'm like Hmm good opportunity here. And I think Jeff would handle this really really well.

So well my fellow elder and I think I'd helped not some guy I know in Phoenix, right, but you know fellow pastor at apology at church. And I think it was the next day that I got the email from him. Could I could you give me Jeff's contact information?

I think he wrote to both of us at the same time and he cc'd me on it. So I don't think I would have happened if we didn't have that that connection, right, right. So that took place.

We go was the last Thursday we go today. Yeah, that's right. We go really early this really early. Yeah. Yeah. 430. I'm fairly early early for me. Yeah.

Yeah, he's Eastern time zone. So it was he got a little more time. Yeah. Yeah exactly, but it comes out the.

29th.

Some I can I make the 30th something somewhere around there somewhere on there. So we've got it about another.

Week. And it'll drop. But you've done. You did an apology radio thing where you basically went over your notes. Yeah, yeah stuff. You maybe didn't get to get to or things like that. But just briefly before we get to the main course here.

What did you think.

So, um, I thought I thought it went really well. As well as it can as it can be when you're talking. On a computer in front of a webcam and there's crossover at times and it was 430 in the morning and I.

Thankfully God blessed it. I had. I was tired, but I was coherent. We have late schedules at Apologia because we're always counseling like this week. We've had over a dozen counseling sessions just between Zach and I.

That's that's where that's where I'm different.

Yeah, I'm the I'm the early morning guy. Yes saying goodnight to all you guys as you're just getting good.

That's right. So when I know some people probably even my brothers and sisters at Apologia, they're like, what's the big deal? Like my husband gets up at 430 like to do whatever. It's just that our schedules are so reversed because we're doing stuff all day long.

And then you know We have people coming in because it's the only time they can come in for counseling Late 6 7 8 o 'clock at night. Sometimes we'll be we'll be driving home from counseling at 1130 at night.

So we are we have late schedules at times and so getting up at 3 30 a .m. To do a discussion like this was like, I don't know how this is gonna work, but it was it was good. I was I was I was tired. But I could I could communicate with them and we had a good time in terms of good reaction good interaction with each other.

It was gracious. It was respectful towards one another. Justin helps to find guys. He is I'm consummate interviewer. He truly excellent what he does. There's no question about that. I think he's one of the best I've ever seen do something like this, especially because you know, he has his own view.

Yeah, that's the thing. You've got to give to. Justin is there as many times I've been in a conversation on unbelievable where I. I knew he didn't say it, but I know enough after all these years. I knew he wouldn't be on my side.

Yeah, but he was always permanently fair very fair. He's the best at it. And so It was supposed to as far as I understood even when we started there was about an hour planned. And right there was a lot of subjects we tossed out in the beginning like we're gonna get to all these things.

And I was thinking to myself. No, how is this gonna happen? So we ended up I think I if I remember correctly spending about the first hour on Apologetics and then I was like, we're not gonna get to the law of God discussion now.

That's kind of the meat of all this because his book Irresistible really does does cross over between those two main points. One is the apologetic methodology. They're tied in a very unusual. Yeah, yeah, and and then the law of God question they just kind of keep going back and forth and then in all his discussions.

It's really been those two main platforms He's arguing from but Justin really wanted to focus in upon the apologetic issue to begin with and then we ended up doing an extended Edition, I guess we went I I was done about 630.

So that's really unusual about two hours and what he said is the whole thing will be up online. They're gonna do a condensed version for broadcast over the UK. But the first hour again apologetic second hour was law of God questions from my Recollection and it was early what I remember of it.

I have to watch I'm gonna have to listen to it. Yeah, exactly. What did I say exactly for my recollection? There wasn't really interaction from Stanley with my wrist my position or my My refutation of his claims when he'd make a claim I would give scripture I would try to articulate a position and from what I remember of it.

There was an interaction with what I was trying to communicate to him so he would make a claim and I would respond with a series of texts and an explanation and I Remember the most it was more or less.

Well.

There are a lot of people who take kind of different stabs at this and this is the approach that I'm taking kind of a Thing and so it wasn't really interaction getting to the text trying to dissect the position and unpack it.

There wasn't a lot of responsiveness to what I would bring to the table. And so I I think it's helpful because at least it'll bring this discussion to the forefront for people to start thinking about it.

Especially a lot of the fact that Andy Stanley. I mean his his sermons come on after Saturday Night Live. Yeah, I mean he he's broadcast around the world. He's got you know a Significant online following enough to where stuff is spread, you know pretty rapidly and I think the claims that he is making about Not only apologetic methodology and the grounding of our faith.

He would deny I think in at least and I think if you asked him Do you accept the self-attesting nature of the Word of God? I think you have to say yes to that Biblically, but in actual practice, but then you redefine what self-attest.

Yeah, then you redefine it in actual practice. It really comes to something different in terms of methodology and and it does matter. It does matter. Somebody might say like well, you know is this sort of just you know splitting hairs kind of a thing and it's not splitting hairs because there was even a point the Discussion where we get to the self-attesting nature of the Word of God and I'm really grounding it in Scripture.

This is what the Word of God says about itself. This is how Jesus and the Apostles argued what from the self-attesting nature of the Word of God. They assume it from the beginning he actually made a claim in terms of the text of Scripture and he said He was afraid to say because the Bible says he doesn't really want Christians to say because the Bible says.

Which is really what I would say right and that God's Word of self-attesting God says, you know. There's you can say synonymously God says the Bible says Paul says James says so what he says is and this is critical and I hope people Because of the broadcast get into this discussion because it's not a new discussion.

It's not that we're just facing this this goes back to the time of the Reformation itself in terms of Scripture as self-attesting or does the church give? Authoritatively the Word of God the authority as the Word of God it really is a reformational conflict and it is therefore also an Orthodox get back to the ancient record of the church Conflict because that's what we're trying to get at.

So what I was saying because because the God because God says in his word he was saying no, it's no it's because John was a witness. John wrote he gave us his testimony. Paul gave his testimony with that's what this was.

This wasn't like script they're writing their their Testimonies out and the church comes along later and collects those and says this is our Bible. There's a subtle Thing happening there that many people may not recognize and that is what I went to with him as I said I said well if you go to the text itself Peter actually addresses what you're talking about when he says about Paul's writing.

He says some things that are hard to understand which unstable men twist to their own destruction. He says this in the first century as Paul's writing them as they do the rest of the scriptures. So as Paul's giving scripture as well, sorry.

This is buzzing here as Paul's giving scripture stop calling Marcus as Paul as Paul is giving scripture in the first century. This is I think this is actually honestly, if you think about it in the context of a Jewish culture and mindset, it could really be a Nuclear bomb for him to say as Paul's writing something.

They're twisting Paul's writings. Some things are hard to understand to their own destruction like they do the rest of the scriptures. That's the Torah and the Tanakh. Mm-hmm. Like he is equating in the first century as Paul's giving inspired revelation that is equal to Genesis equal to Deuteronomy.

Every covenant has its documents and there's a new covenant. There's nothing a document. That's right.

And so what it was what Paul what Peter is demonstrating there in the first century is. They didn't take Andy's perspective?

No.

They did not. These are just these are just Documents people are writing and the church is gonna come later and sort of give that the authority as the Bible the Canon.

That was that was the same Peter who said I stood on the Mount of Transfiguration. I heard God speak I was with God the Son of man dwelt by God the Holy Spirit, but we have a more sure word of prophecy.

That's exactly right. And I brought that up to him. So it's like yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's really straightforward. Well, I'm I would imagine as a veteran unbelievable participant that Justin can control the direction to some point by the questions He asks and how he asks him and who he asks first so my gut feeling is his interest was primarily in the apologetic issue because He and I have even sort of had a mini debate in the in the studio without the recording going on.

About the minimal facts approach and stuff like that, which obviously is very much commensurate with where Andy Stanley's coming from. Yeah, so I think that's where his primary interest was, but I'm really glad That he had the opportunity to do the other stuff because many times when I'm there I mean this last time we were there Me and Abdullah all under Lucy we had to record the beginning and the first 20 minute then leave the studio for someone else to come in and do something and Then come back and finish the program up.

Oh so the very fact that he would have had the time to Do the the more recording that may be because he was in a little studio by himself because he had both of you coming in Another direction maybe maybe that's what gave me but I'm just thankful that he took the time to do it.

Yeah, because it would have been real easy for him to say hey, sorry guys. And then you don't get to the whole thing. So I'm glad it worked out that yeah.

Yeah, it was it was but I hope it blesses the church. Most most important thing is it's not so much just a conflict between You know my personal convictions and Andy Stanley and let's just sort of go at it and you know, no big deal.

I think these are foundational things. If if we have his perspective on Apologetics how we approach the world and the Bible itself I think we're gonna lose the ability to actually speak with authority in Every area and I think we're diminishing the power of Christian witness with his approach not standing on scripture or self-attesting and then the issue.

Don't think he thinks that. Yeah, I.

Just.

Well now, you know now you've explained it. It would be he did say he had been listening to some of your stuff.

He did which I really appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, so I would love to see him continue to do that.

Yeah, you never know. I mean I get the feeling he really thinks this is important. In light of the fact he keeps repeating I've just met all these people who walked away from the faith walked away from the faith and he says a lot of stuff about his own upbringing in in a negative fashion.

As it being, you know, and so my my hope would be that he would hear and Use that platform and and maybe you know go, you know what? I didn't hadn't really thought all this.

That's my hope because it goes there were some things that I had brought to his attention with no response To that. I'm I'm hoping that it's just something he has not considered. It's we all have our traditions.

We all have our training and there's stuff we need to as we as we grow older and we we get into the Word of God we need to start to say I need to re-examine this toss this out. This is not consistent with the text.

I'm hoping that happens with Andy. I think there's a little bit of the.

Emergent church. Attitude there in the sense that this was my background. But it didn't give me what I needed. So I'm getting rid of it. And what I think of what it's done is it's really narrowed the streams of input into his theology.

I don't hear a whole lot of stuff from. What we would hope would be balancing perspectives. It seems like he's looking at just a narrow. And till he had to run into you at 7 o 'clock 7 30 in the morning.

His time. Yeah, and hopefully that will love that will do something if we ever do it again.

I'm gonna demand that we do it at a at a godly hour.

Well, I think the best way to do it is to well remember godly hour in here in Arizona is different than I know. Okay, so but it there is a completely different dynamic because I've sat right here and Done out of how many programs and it's it's a completely different dynamic than being in studio.

It is it really is. So I hope I really really hope that I'll be having to give you directions to premiere Christian radio How to walk there which tube stations to take and so on so forth In the future, so you have the opportunity of doing that, but that's just one of the to me that's just one of the positives that I see coming out of where we are now and what we're doing and.

Kwaku El, Neo-Mormonism, and the Athanasian Creed

So I preached. Yeah Sunday, right started a series on the Lord's Supper. Yep, and June 2nd be preaching again out of 1st Corinthians chapter 11. I'm but I'm gonna try to be there this Sunday. I hope you Appreciate the yes Coming back from Tucson, but I just I don't want get people to get the idea that yeah.

He's one of our elders, but he's only here when he preaches. It's not I'm the traveling elder and the elderly elder. Yeah, though you are working on a little I'm getting some gray.

Yeah.

Harris. I've noticed my hair is starting to thin a little more. I'm like, oh boy. Yeah, that's the way it works. Well, anyways.

That's I want folks to hear from you a little bit about how you felt about how the conversation with Andy Stanley went and obviously we're all really looking forward to it and maybe once it comes out and there's a Something tells me there will be multiple blog articles Written on both sides and so maybe when there's some some good Interaction and may we can talk about it again once there's some stuff to really, you know bite in.

I think we'll be more useful as if Andy Stanley would be willing to do a moderated public debate.

Yeah.

That would be much more useful and I think beneficial to both perspectives. For people to hear both sides in a moderated public debate setting I'd be happy to do something like that I think a lot a lot more useful long-term than then the streaming video stuff.

Because you just sometimes have our lives. What at one moment I do remember is is.

I.

Tried to give Andy the ability to speak and then when I would start to talk he would sort of say no no no. And he would jump in and it was like I was trying out having a hard time figuring out where we at right now.

And thankfully Justin was like Andy let him talk. Okay, so we're able to get through it. So I think a moderated debate would actually help a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It has to be a good moderator to Have a little experience on that. So anyways, I wanted it wanted to give everybody a sort of a preview of that so we're looking at next week sometime probably over next weekend that will drop and.

So it'd be good to make sure that you get the online video version. Yes because the Podcast version may be shorter or the one that at least airs on premiere. I'm not sure what's gonna be posted. I'm not sure.

He'll find out. Yeah, you'll you'll be able to tell by looking at it. Yeah, if it's less than an hour, it's not long enough.

Yeah.

Because it was definitely longer. So yeah. Yeah, definitely. Okay, so with that Totally shifting gears here. I haven't been watching the the Twitter stream because it's on the other side here. Okay, I'm catching what Rich is doing in the other room.

I Guess he figures he can talk about stuff. Because I don't get a chance to look this direction. But anyway, um a Video came out. I think. Did you send it to me first or you send it to me? Did I. Okay, then somebody then then somebody must have sent it to me and When did we do.

When last year did we have our little get-together?

I.

Could find the date for you. I could find the date for you. After my seizure my sort of my short-term memory. It's just blown. It really is.

Anyway. Sometime last year and it was it wasn't all that Early in the year because it was after I had gotten my Greek text from Jeffrey. So because we had Jeffrey do that real nice August 31st, so it was at the end of August of last year.

We.

Now is he still using the three Mormons thing? I have not seen him on that. He may he may be but I've been seeing the stuff. He's been doing on his own channel. On his own channel. Yeah.

So Quaker L Which only after our Lengthy discussion on.

Was that an apology or radio episode. It was. Yeah, I think.

Obviously over the studios. That's when I discovered that he's actually head of the Young Democrats at BYU. Yeah, and I started getting that feeling we were talking beforehand. So I Described him as a neo-mormon.

Mm-hmm. Yesterday in telling folks. We're gonna look at a video. He had just put out and it's it's not because he is wildly unorthodox as a Mormon it's that he represents a neo a new form of Mormonism that.

That I can say that even more strongly than you because I was dealing with Mormons back when Mormons were still Quoting Bruce R. McConkie as a living authority and going rah-rah-rah. Bruce R McConkie and I haven't ran into anybody doing that in a long long time.

I have not either. So we're talking about back when Mormons really believed Mormonism.

And.

He would not have survived at BYU with Bruce R. McConkie there no way no way. The perspectives well, you know. We all know what happened at the graduation a few weeks ago when one of the valedictorians comes out and announces he's homosexual There in his speech at Brigham Young University, and there's no repercussions.

He's congratulated. There's a there's there Kwaku represents a seed change. Mm-hmm. And once there are enough Kwaku's in the general authorities. What's Mormonism gonna look like? Yep, that's really.

That's what I'm thinking about and yet he represents a strange admixture because so many of these Mormons today are like Well, you know all that all that Eternal law progression stuff and things like that, you know, we don't know, you know.

And he does have a little bit of that but but he talks theology. That's what this whole video was about and so many of the others just you know, but I have a testimony. This makes me feel good so I Don't know where he's gonna end up right ten years from now.

Yeah, but it just seems to me that a lot of Mormons are Faced with a with a choice right now. You can either try to remake Mormonism into something that you can live with in light of its actual history in light of Joseph Smith's polygamy and Now we're now we're publishing pictures of the seer stone and right, you know dealing with all that kind of stuff.

Or there's a backdoor and Given the numbers that they announced at the general conference while you guys were up there in April. That backdoor seems to be fairly substantial right now. Yes I mean the numbers right now growth-wise in comparison to what they were in the 1980s are Minuscule.

Mm-hmm. I mean, it's still a big big big group. Relatively speaking, but both Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism are really struggling in this secular the secular world and Mormonism I think more so simply because it it has inherent in it a subjectivism that just The the secular world is like poison to it.

Mm-hmm, and they they just don't know how to deal with it.

Yeah, and I think a free access to information today is annihilating the the efforts missionary efforts of Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses those two main groups have so tried to protect their people for so long.

From being able to get access to information and don't look at it I was just we're baptizing an ex Jehovah's Witness on Sunday. He was Jehovah's Witness for decades. Faithful Jehovah's Witness and One of the things we were talking about yesterday was that it was so hard for him.

And this is I think a critical part of this where this is all happening now. It was so hard for him. He said when he started actually, I mean he knew it was wrong. And even when he had acknowledged this is all wrong I know it is even going to online go online to find information into research.

He was terrified. That's true. He was so fearful because he was it was demonized. You're not allowed to look at this even when he knew it was wrong. This is something is wrong with this. He couldn't do it.

He had to shake that loose and he's had struggles with it. Because he was it was burned into him. This is from the devil. This is Antichrist. Don't read this stuff. You're not allowed to well There's there's much of that in Mormonism historically even when I first started going to the Mormon Temple if I tried to hand somebody Some information to say we'll look at this.

They would immediately go wait. What is that? And that's why I love this book. Because this was their information so these obviously these are photocopies of your documents. These are this is lectures of faith.

This is this course is history of the church. Don't worry.

This is an anti and the fact we started they knew what Journal of Discourses was. Yes. Now you have to explain that.

Yeah, exactly and so I think with the free access to information now people can just pop online and a video comes up and you can start Hearing about the history of Joseph Smith false prophecies doctrinal things people will see your videos my videos come up interaction with Latter-day Saints and They'll just sit and listen.

Oh, they're Oh Mormon versus pastor they'll click on that and now they've got an hour and a half of conversation between Sorry more missionaries and and a Christian that they get to listen to just sort of you know.

We're standing there birds-eye view. And so that sort of thing happens now and it's easy access to all this stuff. And so I think it's creating it's doing a lot of damage. So I obviously I don't I don't I can't say this with certainty.

But I think with the free access to information and all that's out there and available now. The church has seemed to change since the internet has done what it's done. It's changed in its methodology and approach to the world where now they have to just sort of come out with stuff say yeah.

This this is true. We have this stuff and here it is and that you know all this. Yeah, that's true. And it's and and sort of it's had to get them to a place where they're sort of like yielding to. Yeah, all that's true.

Yeah, and you know, but we thought we love our neighbor. Exactly and we're Christians and you know. And so that's where I think you have to get to a point where people have to sort of say We've got to accept this really bad history.

That's really convoluted theology. There's really contradictory statements and that will get people to a place where you go. Well, you know, yeah, he's a prophet. But you know, he's just a man and I don't have to accept everything.

He says why well because when you take Brigham Young's Statements which he calls scripture with Joseph Smith's and you see the conflict or you see these Really strange teachings from a prophet like Brigham Young and you just gotta say Orson Pratt Orson Pratt.

You just have to get to the point you go. Yeah, I know he's a prophet but you know, he's just a man. I don't have to accept everything. He has to say it's a really that how I approach this text, you know.

It's it's just a document. I'm objects of everything. It says that was one of the things I found interesting in this video.

And I'm not gonna be showing the video. I've got the audio and if we don't get into it, we're never getting done. Yeah, yeah, but. That's one of the things I found interesting is he starts off with a really standard Attempt to make the Athanasian Creed sound crazy because it doesn't give you any of the background.

He's not interpreting it within the context of which it was written. He doesn't even try. And that's I've seen Muslims do it. I've seen Jehovah's Witnesses do it. I've seen atheists do it. I've seen one that's Pentecostals do it.

Here's a Mormon doing it. It certainly would therefore indicate for example to our homeschool Our homeschool parents who watch this all the time I mean people send pictures all the time on Twitter of the homeschool kids gathered around the thing during the dividing.

Right, right. So one of the things I would strongly recommend For our homeschool folks is to make sure your kids understand What the context and background of the Athanasian Creed was so they can detect this kind of stuff because I Have now I've found all these groups doing this exact thing.

Yeah, this exact thing. Let me illustrate what this exact thing is. Let's say let's get to something here. For those playing a dividing line bingo, this will help you which with whatever column you're on.

Because I am going to mention that I am playing this slightly faster at one point to.

I.

Just like to tell people I'm doing that so they don't accuse me of editing things. But let me let me run through part of this. Oh I can't hear anything. Okay, we caught that we caught rich asleep in the other room, okay, so.

He's complaining because he has to go back and forth in the television shots. Yeah me. So, you know, okay, let's try it again.

No, evangelical Christians Protestants Catholics Eastern Orthodoxy Seventh-day Adventist Jehovah's Witnesses. The majority of Christianity does not accept what we believe. They totally think we're wrong in this regard.

And it's totally cool for them to think that now by the way. It's totally cool for them to think that how many pages of that right there would be statements from leaders. Saying it's not totally cool, right?

They believe that it's it's apostasy. It's a rejection of the latter-day revelation blah blah blah, but that's the neo part. Yes, that's the it's it's totally cool. If you believe it, yeah, it's fine, you know, that's not what LDS leaders have believed for a very very very long time.

Yeah, yeah, Joseph Smith calling. Try trying to express the Trinity and calling it a wonderfully big God a giant or a monster or a monster. Yeah.