Q&A with Pastor John Tucker

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A little different format today, everyone. I'm going to interview John Tucker, who will be preaching tonight.
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And it'll be kind of a, just talk about ministry and updates. You get to know him a little bit better.
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Think behind the scenes. I don't know where it's going to go. That's why I'm here. Because I want to see what this is going to turn into.
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I know. So let's pray and then we'll start. Father in heaven, thank you for another day.
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We realize that while we change all the time, lots of times for the worse, you are unchangeable.
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You are immutable. And we're thankful because that means your love for us never changes. Your promises never change.
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Your character never changes. And we're thankful for that. So help us today to learn, to grow, to encourage one another, and to remember that we have the great savior, the risen king,
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Jesus Christ, in whose name we pray. Amen. Amen. Well, this is my friend,
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John Tucker. And John is pastoring out in Ohio. He's also a lawyer.
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So I love pastors and I love lawyer pastors especially. Ephesians chapter four talks about pastor teachers and now we have a pastor lawyer.
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So we're just going to have almost like a little behind the scenes, no compromise radio interview. John, tell me where you pastor and how long you've been there.
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I pastor at the community Bible church in Beloit, Ohio. How do you spell Beloit?
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B -E -L -O -I -T. It's literally on the road to Damascus.
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It is? How does that work? Well, the road that runs in front of the church, if you're going east on that road, the next town is
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Damascus. Have you ever seen any bright lights on that road? Not lately, no. Okay.
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And how long have you been there? I've been there a little over three years. And you were a congregant, layperson, deacon, elder before you became the pastor?
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I was a congregant. I was assisting with teaching Sunday school. The pastor who had been there for 30 years retired.
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We brought a candidate in, that didn't work out. I was asked to fill the pulpit on an interim basis.
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Did that for about three months and they came to me and then asked me to be full -time. Okay, and then you're currently practicing as a lawyer as well?
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That's correct, yes. All right, and what do you do? What kind of law? I predominantly practice in the area of labor and employment law and corporate law.
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And so I work a lot of businesses with regard to their HR issues, labor relations with unions, and also advise a number of churches,
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Christian schools, things of that nature. And this is, I'm not making light of this or it's not a joke, but you've helped pastors who have been fired before, maybe lawfully or unlawfully.
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Yeah, dealt with issues between pastors and churches and their elder boards, deacon boards, things of that nature.
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I'm getting ahead of myself, but it's interesting to me. So 1 Corinthians 6 talks about not suing other Christians.
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Do you then come in as some type of mediator versus using the law? What's your philosophy on that?
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Well, obviously I agree with 1 Corinthians 6 and so I would disagree. Good, because otherwise you would be preaching at night. Exactly, so.
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That would be bad. But no, so I come in to try to facilitate oftentimes a resolution, a biblical resolution, and to bring the parties together on a common ground to try to reach a consensus and a soft landing, so to speak.
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Sometimes with denominations that you might not agree with in terms of some secondary issues? Yes, yeah, the area that I'm in is predominantly
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Quaker friends and Mennonite. And so I work with those and they have some different perspectives on things.
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Are Quakers friends with Mennonites? I'd like to know. Yeah, I'm not sure. I assume so.
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Tell the congregation a little bit about just in general a Quaker philosophy and friends and no sacraments, ordinances and stuff like that.
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I mean, I think of Quakers when I think of U .S. history and I think of Quaker Oats is what
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I think of. But what's a Quaker? Well, Quaker Oats, interestingly enough, were made in Akron for a while, so there's a big silo in Akron about that.
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But their philosophy, of course, is that they're led by the Spirit in regards to revelation.
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Sola Scriptura would be a foreign concept to them. They believe that there is new revelation.
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They have really not a hierarchy within the church. It's more of a congregational type model rule.
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They're governed by another body, external. They circulate pastors through oftentimes and an emphasis, like I said, on the
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Holy Spirit and the leading in that way. I think they call it what, the inner light? The inner light, correct, yes. And the problem with the inner light, of course, is if the inner light is broken to some degree, affected by the fall, then you end up hearing errant what you think is revelation, right?
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Well, absolutely, yeah, and that's a real problem with the Friends and they emphasize the inner light, although that's not what they call it so much anymore.
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They call it leading or just the revelation of the Spirit and they rely upon that rather than the word of God.
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Presbyterians, I know why they're called Presbyterians because they have elders, Congregationalists because they have a congregation that would vote and have the last say,
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Episcopalians because there's a bishop. Why would you call yourself a Friend? Not you. I'm really not sure, to be honest.
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William Penn in Pennsylvania with the Quakers and I think over time it just developed that that was a name that was attached to them.
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I really don't know the history of the organization. It kind of reminds me of what if the congregation was kind of ornery and they're called
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Friends? That would be bad advertising. That would be, indeed. Kind of like if a church is named Excel and then you're not excelling in the
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Christian faith, am I allowed to come? No, Mike, you can't. All right. What's the strangest court case that you've ever, or case that you've dealt with maybe in the ecclesiastical church realm?
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Craziest court case in the church, I haven't had church court cases. Thankfully, those have been resolved without having to get that far.
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I don't know that the craziest would be in the civil context would be a situation where an employee allowed a baby to go through an x -ray machine at an airport.
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That was pretty bizarre. Of course, the individual was fired and the fun part of the case was the videotape of the baby in the baby carrier.
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The woman is there waiting to go check into a building. The baby gets caught on the conveyor belt and gets pulled into the x -ray machine.
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And of course, you've got this video of a baby laying in a carrier, fully x -rayed, and then comes out the other side.
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The baby was fine? The baby was fine, yeah, but that was intriguing. With churches,
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I think the most interesting thing about that is their inability to comprehend what
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God's word says with regard to the resolution of disputes. They don't have good governing documents that speak to those issues and the level of contention.
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Some of the most hotly contested issues that I've dealt with are the tensions between pastors and leadership boards in the churches and the volatility of that is really striking to me.
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Would it be fair to say that sometimes people in a legal suit who are both unbelievers act more moral than to Christians or professing
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Christians? Yes, I have often found that to be the case. There is a certain level of civility in regards to civil litigation in the secular courts.
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You get into a church setting, and for some reason, sometimes that civility leaves, which is odd.
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Different subject, and we're talking today to John Tucker. John, in pastoral ministry, there are great highs and lows, right?
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Lots of times we get to really be encouraged, other times very discouraged. Tell the congregation about how your congregation encouraged you, i .e.
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with the pulpit. Yeah, so my dad was a Baptist minister for almost 40 years in a town called
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Hartville, which is just west of where I live. Small Baptist congregation, and early in his ministry, one of the men in the congregation was a carpenter, and he made my dad a custom pulpit, customized to my dad.
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And so that was one of the things that my dad really loved in his ministry. My dad retired and moved to Springfield, Missouri.
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Where? Missouri. Oh, okay. Missouri, sorry. And so the pulpit went with him, and it was in his garage and was kind of forgotten.
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So I became the pastor at Community Bible Church, and one of the elders in the church found out about this and talked to my mom about it.
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And one day they drove down all the way to Springfield from Beloit, which is about a 16 -hour drive, picked up the pulpit and brought it back and put it in the church unbeknownst to me.
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And so I was teaching Sunday school. While I was teaching Sunday school, they brought the pulpit in, and when
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I got done teaching Sunday school, I walked out and there it was. It was just really a magnificent moment to be able to stand in my dad's pulpit where he proclaimed
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God's truth faithfully for 40 years. How was that sermon that Sunday that you preached?
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I was blown. I was just, I mean, even now I'm getting tears in my eyes thinking about it because it was just one of those, it was very gracious of that man in the church to do that, and my mom was part of that.
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And there's a plaque on it that talks about it being my dad's pulpit. And so it's a real honor to stand behind it and proclaim
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Christ. Wonderful, thank you for that. If we were to walk into the church that you pastor on a
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Sunday morning, excuse me, what would we see or hear or do? Some churches on the website say we're about casual dress and we're about this or that.
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How do you, excuse me, promote the church and or what would we experience when we walked in?
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Besides the pulpit. We're very seeker -friendly. Oh, you are? Good. We love seekers. So it's a church that's been there for over 150 years.
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It's an old congregational church. They left the congregational denomination in the mid 80s, went independent.
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We're in a rural community. It's a nice building located on a major highway running east to west in Northeast Ohio.
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You're gonna come in and you're gonna be greeted by a very nice people. We have Sunday school.
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I teach the Sunday school class. We have a great children's program. What are you teaching in Sunday school? Second Peter right now.
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We'll get through second Peter. We're in second Peter chapter one. I'm also working through Sinclair Ferguson's book,
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The Christian Life with regard to just the doctrines that are applicable to the Christian life. So we have
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Sunday school. We have kind of a fellowship time in the morning, coffee and donuts and people get to spend time with each other, kind of catching up and talking.
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Then at 9 .30, we start the Sunday school class and that goes until 10 .15
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and then we have our worship service at 10 .30. More traditional in nature. We sing hymns, there's scripture reading, call to worship, pastoral prayer and then we sing some hymns and then
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I preach expositionally through. Right now we're in Colossians. Excellent.
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How do we meet? You wanna tell that story? That's a good problem. Yeah, that's a great story and it's a demonstration of God's providence.
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So I like to listen to podcasts and I was listening to a, I don't even remember what it was called. There was two young men who had put together a podcast and they were interviewing
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Mike on the podcast and so I heard about NOCO Radio through that podcast. I then went to the podcast and started listening and found that he and I were of like mind and conviction doctrinally and in terms of preaching style and so I just started listening and I was at the
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Shepherd's Conference and I heard his voice. I didn't know what he looked like but I heard him.
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Yes, this voice in the light, yes. And so I heard him talking to somebody and I saw him and so I kind of ran up and caught him and said, hey, you know, my name's
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John and I really enjoy your show. Oh, that's when my handler said, stay away. Yes, you're dead. Yeah, the guy. I remember that. Yeah, yeah.
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Yes, now I remember. Yeah, that was difficult to get to you but once I paid the entrance fee, everything was fine.
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So yeah, I kissed the ring, exactly. Uh -huh.
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Remember, it's not doctor, it's high holy doctor. That's right, yes, indeed, yes. Back to the church scenario, tell our congregation a little bit about your philosophy.
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We're preaching Colossians 128 and it kind of an odd phrasing for emphasis. Paul says, him we proclaim, talking about the
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Lord Jesus. Right. So instead of saying, we proclaim Jesus, him we proclaim with the emphasis there, we're gonna talk about the
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Lord Jesus. And of course, as Dr. Clark talked about the last two days, many congregations want practical application, how to list steps for easy living, four keys to health, how to get through the work week.
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And there are some, obviously, scriptural verses that help us with church and life, but the dominating theme is
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Christ -centered preaching. What's your philosophy on that? Well, certainly Christ -centered preaching, we're not gonna, you're not gonna get the seven steps, the five keys, the three movements towards a better life.
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We focus on preaching verse by verse, exegetically, expositionally, working through the text, making certain people are seeing
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Christ and learning to love Christ and appreciate what he has done for them. So Colossians, of course, is a great book for that because it's all about Christ, really.
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The first two chapters are really focused on the work and person of Jesus Christ. And we've been working through that currently, and it's been a real blessing to the people.
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And that's our focus, is to proclaim Christ and crucify. How do you mentally and maybe psychologically work through people who are attending the church, and maybe they have friends and family, maybe they're members, have been members for a long time, and then you begin to preach this way, and maybe they want a different way.
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And then they say a few things to friends, and then they leave. It's hard to be a pastor and have people leave.
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It is, yes. Because, I mean, we want to be liked, and we're not trying to run people out. I remember sometimes Luke would be five, and he'd say,
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Daddy, those people left the church, didn't they? Why don't they like you? You know, just things like that. How do you work through that?
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Because I know people don't stick around Christ -centered preaching churches unless that's really what they want and have been taught to want.
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Well, you know, Christ will build his church. And sometimes he does that by subtraction.
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And certainly, we don't want people to leave, but we're not going to change the message in order to appeal to them to make them want to stay.
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We're not pragmatic. We focus on the scripture, and we trust that the Holy Spirit will do the work.
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It's sad to see people leave. We don't want people to leave. But at the same time, we understand that the
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Lord is working in people's lives and hearts, and we trust that he's building the church and Beloit the way he wants to.
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And so I have to trust that. You know, it's difficult at times as a pastor to watch that. It hurts. Sometimes people don't tell you why.
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Sometimes they do, and they can be very direct about that. But I always appeal to them on the basis of what scripture says in terms of proclaiming
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Christ, as Paul would say in the book of Colossians. And if that doesn't help, then they move on.
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Talking to John Tucker today. John, you and I both know
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Evan Burns, and the congregation here knows Evan Burns, our missionary in Thailand and Alaska.
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Evan and I went to Beloit last year to do a conference, and then you guys have picked up support for Evan now.
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And so how do you explain that? And maybe we'll send some men to Alaska. Yes, so Mike came out to our church last
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May for our Pillars of the Faith conference and spoke on assurance. And Evan did the presentation on Adoniram Judson.
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And so through that process, we got to know Evan. The people really loved him and liked his ministry.
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And so we actually changed our missions. We transitioned away from some areas that we were focused on so we could have a better level of support for Evan.
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So we had brought Evan on as a full -time missionary at Community Bible Church. The people loved the conference.
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They really loved Mike, and we appreciated the message that you brought on assurance.
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And we're looking forward to you coming back in April. And we've got everything worked out.
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So I will certainly, this, I mean, I made a mistake. I didn't have, the temperature of the water in the car was not quite right.
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Oh, and you picked me up at the airport. And I'm really sorry about that. I am, yeah. Well, I didn't want you to pick me up. I asked for the driver. That's true,
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I know. We're working on that, so. Okay, what is it like to be a celebrity in Beloit, Ohio? You know, it's really amazing. Yeah, it's pretty amazing.
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The farmers and the cows really appreciate me. You have speakers come for conferences.
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Have any speakers ever asked you to go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame on the day off? Yes, there has been one.
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There has been one. And of course, what else would you do after a series of powerful messages on assurance?
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You go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I just was trying to see if he was a legalist. And so we were gonna try to help him with the sanctification and drive that legality out.
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Well, you did. You know. You know, it's like the people say, well, I never listened to any secular music.
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And you go, do you listen to classical music? Were they all Christians? Yeah, I know, that's right. Very interesting.
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No, we had a good time. We had a great time at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Tell me a little bit,
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John, about some of your concerns in modern evangelicalism. And then when we're done with that, some of the encouraging things that you see going on in churches and maybe in American modern evangelicalism.
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So let's start with the negative first concerns. Well, just the lack of Bible preaching. The lack of the presence of the word and the ministry.
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The absence of the exaltation of Christ through the preaching of the word. The emphasis on the finished work of Christ is really troubling to me.
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There are so many churches in the area in which I live. We have several very large churches. And you can listen to these messages.
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And Jesus Christ is not referenced. Again, it's the biblicism that Dr. Clark spoke about yesterday.
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The seven steps, that type of mentality. So that's discouraging to me.
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The law gospel issue is discouraging to me. It's amazing to me that we have lost sight of that because there's such a freedom in understanding the distinction between the law and the gospel.
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And it's remarkable to me, people want to be able to do something so they can have assurance in what it is they're doing rather than assurance in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
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And that's something that you can even find in a church that's been established for a long time. People lose sight of that.
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And I think it's easy to do. And I think that's why it's important every Sunday that you put Christ back in front of people so they know that the work is done.
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They can rest in that. To me, that's the beauty of the gospel and something that we emphasize at Community Bible Church.
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Okay, so that's the concern. How about positive things that you see as you look at the swath of evangelicalism in America or beyond?
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It's hard to find encouraging things in that regard. You know, there are people that I'm seeing in churches,
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Bible churches, if you will, that are transitioning away from the emphasis on works and the misunderstanding between sanctification and justification.
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You see men beginning to understand that distinction better and working towards that.
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And I'm encouraged by that. It's a slow process, but I am seeing that and I'm encouraged by that.
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Thanks to men like you and others like Dr. Clark and people who are taking the time to explain these things in forums that are available to them, so.
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Thanks. If I were to take your iPhone and go to podcasts, what podcasts would
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I find there? Of course, NOCO is number one. It's the most listened to. It was alphabetical order by guest hosts last year.
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NOCO, yeah. I, you know, Fieldcast, Dr.
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Clark's podcast. So those are probably my top three at this point.
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Okay, how about music? What kind of music do you like to listen to? Jazz and classical. Okay, do you play the banjo?
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I do at times. I used to play quite a bit in college, but haven't played in some time.
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I pick it up every once in a while and play with it and have been intending to get back to it and get better at it.
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Now you live on a farm, right? I do, yes. What kind of livestock do you have? We raise cattle. We have a couple of cows. We used to raise horses.
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I used to raise American Quarter Horses and Missouri Foxtrotters. And so we've got chickens and some cats and a dog, and so, yeah.
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Do you ride the horses at all? We did, yeah. Our property backs up to a park, a state park, and it's got bridle trails, and we used to ride our horses back there.
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My daughters were into the horses with me and my wife, and so we enjoyed that together. Why is it in America it's fine to, we kill cows and eat them, nobody does anything, but when it comes to horses, we don't really like horses.
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Yeah, it's just, I just don't think it's... Well, you know what I was thinking about? I know,
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I was just thinking about Lewis and Clark. You know, they're stuck, they're snowed in, they're eating fish every single day, and they would beg
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Lewis and Clark, could we please kill a horse to have some real meat? Yeah, well, when you're hungry, you'll eat about anything,
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I guess, right? So, no, I don't know why. It's not, God didn't intend for us to eat horses, so I think he made them less tasty than cattle.
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Oh, really? Okay. All right, well, this is just random thinking here, obviously.
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How about, speaking of horses and rural, there's a big push in evangelicalism with city and urban, and of course, we wanna minister to people in cities, and there's a lot of people leaving rural areas to go to the city, in New York City, in Chicagoland, et cetera, but almost every book that I hear about is designed for city ministries, and I'm thinking of Tim Keller, especially, and his acolytes.
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What about rural pastors? Who writes for the rural pastor who is behind the scenes?
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You're not going to have 50 ,000 people within a few block radius. I mean, people have to drive for a long way to get there.
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There are challenges for the rural pastor. How does he become encouraged or given insight by these publishers, our leaders?
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They're really not. I think they're forgotten. Rural ministry is unique in that, typically, you find people who are very established and set in their ways in regards to either having been attached to a particular denomination or raised a certain way, and so that presents a unique challenge, and it's interesting, too.
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A lot of the problems that you find in the city are also present in the rural communities.
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I was reading an article recently about the opioid epidemic and the problems there.
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It's as prevalent within the rural communities, if not even more so than it is in the city, and so there are great needs there, and they're oftentimes forgotten in that regard, so there really isn't any type of books or materials that are being written for or focused on rural ministry, but again,
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I think in the context of any ministry, the issue is Christ. It doesn't matter whether you're in the city or if you're in the country, and so what we're trying to do for these folks in the community we're in is to put
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Christ in front of them. Okay, good answer. How about social gospel, and now you have lots of these movers and shakers in big evangelicalism pushing this agenda, random thoughts about social gospel, feeding the poor, city outreaches, maybe at the expense and resources of the real gospel, just random thoughts?
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Well, I don't believe that there is such a thing as the social gospel in the context of there being some unique presentation that's unique to that particular environment.
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I think we proclaim Christ and him crucified to all groups and demographics. We certainly wanna take care of the poor.
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That's part of our service to Christ. We're doing those things for those people as a reflection of our commitment to Jesus Christ, and so this emphasis on the idea that somehow the church may not be a certain demographic or a higher percentage,
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I think as long as Christ is being proclaimed, that is what's supposed to happen, and Christ will build his church.
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I mean, so for example, in Beloit, we're a predominantly white community. It's difficult for us to change a message in order to somehow attract a particular demographic.
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My sense is that if a person is looking to know the Lord Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter whether the church is white, black, red, green, yellow.
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They're gonna go where Christ is being proclaimed and be fed that way. I think when we begin to isolate it in that context, we take away the power of the message, and we make the emphasis very pragmatic as opposed to just proclaiming
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Christ. I'm just gonna say some words, and then you give me just whatever knee -jerk reaction you want.
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I'll make it easy. We're friends. Okay, yes, we are. All right. Sinclair Ferguson. Amazing, just a powerful preacher.
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I've been really blessed. The whole Christ has had a profound impact on me. I've really enjoyed his ministry, hearing him preach.
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It's just one of those guys that you just can't get enough of, in my opinion. Excellent.
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All right, this one will be fun. It just popped in my mind. The inner spirit Quaker just made me think of this.
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I'm sorry, Mike. I'll pray for you. Kanye West. Oh, brother.
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You know, again, celebrity Christianity. Someone used to say to a
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Puritan, did you hear old Joe got saved? And they'll say, we'll see. That's how
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I'm looking at it right now. It's just, I think it's one of those, I hope it's real. I hope it's true. We'll see what fruit's produced.
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Well, the one who's speaking into Kanye's life in terms of pastorally is a man named Adam Tyson, and he's just adjacent to the
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Master's University. In California. And it's been interesting to see what
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Adam has kind of gone through as he's tried to preach to him, right? Can you imagine,
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Bob, you're preaching, and somebody comes to you at the door, and you're trying to greet everyone and say hello, and saying hi to widows and other people, and then all of a sudden you turn and Tom Brady's standing there.
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Hi, pastor, can I talk to you a little bit after service? Uh -oh. Uh -oh. Uh -oh.
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And that's essentially what happened in California, except it's Kanye West, and it's Adam Tyson at a church about our size, and Kanye wants to know the
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Bible. And so far, I think Adam has done a good job of trying to make Christ central and trying to kind of lead that.
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And I think that would give both a platform for Adam and probably lots of possible pitfalls as well, do you think?
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Yes, I agree. How would you advise Adam if he called you and said, lawyer, doctor, pastor, farmer, equestrian?
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Yes. What else do you like to do? Ranjo. I like to sail. Sail? Yes. Oh, before we go to the
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Kanye thing, tell us about the class you took in Maine. That's interesting. Yeah, so this past summer
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I took a class in Maine at the wooden boat school on how to build a wooden boat, and so that was enjoyable, yeah.
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How'd it go? It went great. Did it float? It does, yes. We built a wooden boat, and it was amazing.
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It was a great, neat school, and a great environment, and got to go sailing, and worked on a wooden boat.
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Leroy Gibbs style, right? Indeed, that's right. Oh, back to Kanye.
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Yes. How would you advise Adam, if he were to give you advice? Not to recognize his celebrity status.
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Treat him like anybody else in the congregation. Don't elevate him beyond his maturity.
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Wait and see. Wait and see. Teach him, make sure that he's teachable, he has a teachable spirit, and incorporate him to the regular practice of the church, and hopefully he'll do that.
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First Corinthians 15, it says, for I deliver to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ the
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Messiah died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.
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I'm sure Adam is saying, this message here, when the microphone comes to you, Kanye, this is what you say.
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You don't tell people about progressive sanctification, and Keswick theology, and all this other stuff.
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This is your message, and everything should relate back to this Jesus who dies for sinners.
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Amen, that's right. I thought Adam would probably be given the royal treatment, you know, and flown on Lear jets and stuff to these different events, but when
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I listened to his interview, they said he flew on Spirit Air to Detroit to speak for the
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Whitney, at the Whitney Houston, the Aretha Franklin Pavilion. Oh, well.
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So, I don't know what that is. It takes time to get to the more celebrity, you know, United, and American, and Southwest, yes.
30:54
When you said the Puritans would say something about, we'll see, right? Tell us pastorally how you would talk to some of our young parents here, and their children come up and they say,
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Daddy, I believe in Jesus. Mommy, I believe in Jesus. How do you figure out what to do between assurance of salvation for a three -year -old who's maybe mimicking the faith of the parent, but not discouraging, because we wanna encourage our young people.
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What's the pastoral advice you give? Well, I think in terms of that dynamic, the parent ought to be attentive to what the child is saying, and teach them and develop those desires.
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One of the things that we do at the church is we catechize the children, and that helps with regards to some of the kids who have made early professions of faith in that way to see if there's going to be a development and a desire to keep learning those things.
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I think it's one of those things that you begin to really see in their teen years, whether or not that was a sincere commitment, and it was a really work of regeneration.
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So I think the parents have to be wise in that regard, and not make assumptions, and wait and see whether or not the child has really been born again.
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It's difficult, isn't it? Because you want, you're so happy for the news, right? I don't wanna say, no, you don't, or you're too young, or anything like that, but I also wanna be very measured and not be the kind of dad who says, well,
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I know my child made the profession at 12, and then now they're off doing all kinds of unrighteous things in accordance with 1
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Corinthians 6, verse 9, and this unrighteous behavior as a pattern shows that they will not inherit the kingdom, and you just have to be very careful.
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So I think engendering that enthusiasm, yes, good job, way to believe, keep believing, don't we say that regularly?
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Why do we say that? Well, I mean, to demonstrate that there is that real work of regeneration, keep trusting, keep believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
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You know, one of the things I get concerned about is when a parent says to me, in regards to their children, well, they made a profession of faith when they were four, and that's what they rely on.
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They go back to that. That's kind of the old idea of, I went forward at church camp, or something along those lines.
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They're not measuring, they're not looking in terms of a development of a desire, the sanctification, the working in their life of the
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Holy Spirit and the evidences of that. It's fascinating to me to see what happens when that child who professes faith gets a driver's license and goes through puberty.
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Yes. Or puberty first probably these days and then driver's license. Correct, yeah. Then we'll have the test. We will indeed, yeah.
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I mean, even the Amish in the area that we live in, they have a thing called the rump schnig, and so they -
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You guys know what that is? That is the craziest thing ever. So it's where the children basically have a wild period of their life.
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They're in the church. They're not in the church yet, but they're given this type of wild season where they go out and they just live licentious lives and to reckless abandon, and then they get to make a decision after this period of rebellion as to whether or not they want to come and be a part of the
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Amish church and reenter that community. So we don't want that, of course.
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Right. And this, by the way, when it comes to professions of faith of children, this is a good reminder for all the parents here to keep teaching the gospel over and over and over because if you assume the gospel, then they're gonna just forget the gospel, et cetera.
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That's so well said because that is the key. I mean, I think that's important too for the parents then to understand the gospel.
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Spurgeon would say that we don't want to quench the spirit in a child's life, and he was very concerned about that in the context of making certain if a child didn't make a profession of faith that the parents understood that they wanted to foster that, but they also needed to keep
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Christ in front of the child, making certain that they understood that their faith is in the finished work of Christ and keep living that in front of them rather than making their point of reference when they got saved, which
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I think is something a parent will oftentimes do. They make that the measure. Oh, he was saved at church camp when he was seven rather than seeing this child developing a desire and love for Jesus Christ.
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Right, and there is a time that God knows always because he's omniscient and he's causing all this that we move from death to life, that he makes us alive, that regeneration happens, justification happens.
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There is a time in our life, but sometimes we don't recognize it, especially in light, let's say, of a congregation like this or the church that you pastor, because they're always hearing about Jesus and they're always making that affirmation, and they've never really denied it, and so they're looking for some kind of major experience and light's going on in Damascus Road, the
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Damascus Road experience, but they don't have that, but they're still trusting. Exactly, yeah. And I also like it that when
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I have children or young people who I say, keep believing, that's good advice for a Christian too.
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So if they're not saved, I tell them to keep believing, and I mean with saving faith, and if they are saved, well, the
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Spirit of God translates that to keep believing and trusting in the Lord Jesus because we walk by faith, not by sight. That's right, that's right.
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All right, you have any questions for me? How you doing today,
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Mike? How you doing today? My leg hurts today. Let's see,
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I have several other questions, but I think we're gonna do this instead. We've got about 10 minutes left. Congregation, do you have any questions for John?
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He's gonna be preaching. Oh, before the questions, tell us about tonight's message. Yeah, so I'm doing a message, a lawyer's perspective of the
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Book of Romans. And so I'm taking a look at Paul's kind of polemic argument that he makes.
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Paul had a very keen, logical mind. He was a linear thinker, A to B to C to D, and I love that about Paul.
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And the way he presents his arguments in the Book of Romans is in that fashion.
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And so as Dr. Clark reminded us, we have guilt, we have grace, we have gratitude.
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Those are the three portions of the Book of Romans. And so Paul, in a very prosecutorial way, takes the issue of man's guilt, mankind's guilt.
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He then resolves the guilt in the context of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. And as a result of that, we have a group of people who are exceedingly grateful and live for the
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Lord, evidencing the transformation that's taking place. So that's what I'm gonna be talking about tonight.
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By the way, just as my father would say, between us girls here, he always said that to us as boys.
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I don't know why he did that. Is that a Nebraska thing, or? It might be, but that never happened in Ohio. Oh, it did not? Okay. No. Okay.
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John and I were driving around in Ohio, probably on the way to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame that I didn't wanna go to, but you made me go.
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Yeah, funny how that happened. I had never been, I've lived in Ohio all my life, and I had never been to the
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Rock and Roll, yes. I was a good Christian Baptist boy. Did you tell anybody at church we did that?
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Oh, yeah, yeah, people know. Good, because I put it all over Twitter. They really know now. I thought to myself, we're in the car, and you were talking to a client, and you're like, excuse me,
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Mike, I have to take this call. And the cone of silence kind of went over you, but I could still hear some.
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And I just thought, I am so glad he's not after me as a lawyer, because I thought, he's nice, he's kind, warm, sweet to kids, loves his wife and children, but I thought, don't be on the receiving end of John's displeasure in a court case.
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That's what I thought. Sometimes you just have to be stern, right? Well, yeah, you do, otherwise it makes it very difficult.
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Yeah, so you have to deal with people and make certain they understand how the cows eat the cabbage. How does that work in this day and age where feminization has, it rules the world.
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We're all affected by it. We don't want to be, and of course, we believe, the disclaimers now, probably because of feminism,
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I have to say we're all image bearers, et cetera, et cetera. But even now, effeminacy is required in men.
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Yes, it is. Men talk differently, they act differently. We shouldn't be harsh or bitter or anything, but how difficult is it to be a lawyer in an age where they want you to be effeminate as a man?
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It is difficult. The upperization of the American male is very problematic, and this idea that a man can't be a man in the context of how
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God designed him, and oftentimes, I'll get this, people will say, well, you always sound like a lawyer.
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I think I just sound like a man in terms of I'm a person of conviction.
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I want to be persuasive and clear -headed about things, so it is difficult.
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People don't like that. They think you're angry. They think you're upset. They think you're bitter and things of that nature.
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No, I'm just taking care of business, so. The day and age we live in now, the only masculine talk that you get these days outside of some pulpits?
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No co -radio. No, I was thinking sports talk. Right, we let men be men there, right, and they talk about athletes and other things, so sometimes
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I just have to listen to WEEI or 98 .5 just to think men need to be men. They do.
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I love femininity, but I love it in women. Amen, amen. I agree 100%. Okay, good.
40:38
Any question for John, your congregation? Yes. Well, I hope it's a -
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Would you summarize the question for the audio, please? So the president issued somewhat of a directive with regard to churches and pastors not being penalized or targeted by the
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IRS if the pastor speaks his mind and basically proclaims what the word says, which is obviously the trend in other areas, other countries,
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Canada, for example. It's considered hate speech if you were to even just read certain portions of the
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Bible. I think it's a great thing. I appreciate the fact that the president has done that.
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I think the persecution that's coming to the church is going to come in that form. It's gonna be financial in nature.
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We're gonna have a two -front war in that regard. We're gonna have an internal battle with Christians who refuse to take a stand and accept what
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God's word says. We're seeing that with regard to some of the issues pertaining to homosexuality and those issues.
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And then the money issue, of course. Churches have tax -exempt status in a variety of areas, and that's gonna be a very significant battle when the money starts leaving the church is what will happen.
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So, and as an attorney, what I'm seeing, too, one of the things I work with a lot are churches and Christian schools who are now having to go back and revise and revamp their church bylaws and their organizational documents.
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And for the first time in a long time, they're actually having to think about what they actually believe.
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The courts require that you articulate your religious conviction and belief sincerely, that there's references, that there's a basis and a foundation for it in order for it to be considered a sincerely held religious belief or conviction.
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Remarkably, a lot of church governing documents, their statements of faith, their bylaws are nebulous in these areas.
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They don't address issues regarding what is sin, what is salvation, what is our position on homosexuality, is homosexuality a sin, things of that nature.
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And it's been interesting to watch churches struggle through actually having to go back to God's word and look at those things.
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I'll go to board meetings, I'll sit there and I'll say, well, what does the Bible say about this? We haven't thought about that.
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Well, I think we should if you're a church and we need to begin to work through that process. So I'm glad that the president's doing that.
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The problem is that's just one man. That can change when that changes, so.
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Oh, absolutely, yeah. I mean, there's been the whole issue, the whole, the parsonage exemption was challenged recently and the courts ultimately upheld that as a legitimate allowance, a parsonage allowance.
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So those things are being challenged and I think that's where the persecution is going to come from. Well, church discipline is a huge area.
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That's one area that I've dealt with as an attorney because a church who decides to discipline exposes themselves to a variety of legal claims, primarily defamation.
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And so a church begins the steps of discipline and what ends up happening is that they get to that final step where it's brought to the church.
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A letter is sent out and this is typically what generates the claim is that the letter then will be considered to be libelous.
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It's written and they'll say that the person is, for example, engaged in some sin that's identified, they're called to repentance, they're told that the church is going to be gathering to exercise discipline and churches can get exposed.
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In fact, insurance companies will ask churches, are you engaged in church discipline? Because they know that those types of activities generate claims that go against the policy.
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And so that's a big deal. So churches will actually back away from doing what the Bible says in order to avoid the legal exposure and a reservation of rights on an insurance claim.
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Well, they have to make certain that their governing documents are very clear. This is why church membership is important too.
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If a person is not a member of the church, the church really doesn't have jurisdiction over the person.
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And so that becomes a difficult issue. So when a person voluntarily submits themselves to the authority of the church and the elders in that way, that's significant and you want to make certain that that's happening, that your governing documents speak to that issue.
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And what the process is, you need to have a clearly delineated process. And if you follow the scripture and just incorporate that into your church bylaws, you will have that.
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But you got to follow it, you got to do it. Absolutely, yes, yeah, yeah.
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Okay, one or, excuse me, one or two more. Charlie and then Bob. Well, that's amazing, that's great.
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So I had a - Repeat it, please. So how many cases or church issues reference social media?
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So you're saying using social media in the context of litigation to prove a point?
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So, yeah, well, that can be, it can be significant. I recently had a case involving a
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Christian organization and a person and this is one of those fun moments when you get to be a lawyer.
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So you're cross -examining, we're in an arbitration, the parties had agreed to come together in that context.
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And so unbeknownst to them, we had gotten on the internet into the person's
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Facebook page because the person was claiming a certain series of events.
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And through the Facebook page, we were able to prove that those events never occurred because it was impossible because she wasn't physically where she said those things took place on those dates.
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We were able to match up her location with her Facebook posts. And so, yeah, social media is a big deal in the context of that issue.
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So be careful what you put on social media in that way. Okay, lastly,
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Bob, please. Yeah, sure.
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So his question was, am I a full -time lawyer and pastor? And the answer is yes,
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I'm a full -time pastor and also a full -time lawyer. My practice is not as robust as it once was.
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I've pared it back. I used to travel extensively. My client base was more national.
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I've kind of tried to more focus on local issues. So I'm not on the road quite as much.
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The church has been very gracious to me in that regard. So I am bivocational and will continue to do that because I want to keep a footprint or a presence in the areas that I'm working.
47:55
Favorite legal dramas would be probably A Few Good Men, My Cousin Vinny, and I don't know.
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The Firm. The Firm, yeah. So those would be some of my favorite. Actually, To Kill a Mockingbird is probably my favorite legal movie.
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That's the courtroom scene in that movie is really phenomenal, so yeah. I think we have time for one more.
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Yes, Bob. Summarize 11. They're 11 angry men.
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Well, there's 11 guys in a jury deliberation and they're fighting over the issue and the case and they get angry with each other in terms of just how that process is working out.
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Well, I mean, is it a show of human depravity? I think so, yeah. I mean, a lot of those movies are. I mean, they demonstrate the fact that we're falling and we tend to act out in that way.
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See, John, this is why when we do Q &A, I ask most of the questions because they just ask about movies. Yeah, well, hey, that's fun too.
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I enjoy that. Is there a cinematic hall of fame someplace you could take me to? I don't know. I mean, we've been to the
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Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We've been to the Basketball Hall of Fame. Yeah, we went a couple days ago. Yeah, so when you come back out, I'll take you to the
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Football Hall of Fame. All right, good. And we'll just keep hitting the fames. Okay.
49:18
Well, dear congregation, thanks for coming today. We're gonna pray in just a second. John will be preaching tonight at 5 .30.
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Be kind of a pared down service, a song or two. You're gonna preach for 50 minutes or so. What, 45, 50? 45, 50 minutes, yes.
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Tell me, what do you think about preachers preaching 60, 70 minutes and all that? What's your strategy?
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You know, I think it depends on the congregation. You know, there are some men who can hold a congregation's attention that way.
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And so I just think it's some of those, I think you press the envelope when you begin to get into that realm. People just naturally, attention -wise, have difficulty staying focused that long.
49:54
When I was in law school, our lectures were typically 50 minutes to 60 minutes in length. And the reason for that, again, was just because of the attention span.
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So, but if you have a dynamic speaker, I mean, I sat one time and listened to Steve Lawson preach for an hour and a half.
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And when it was over, I didn't realize it had been an hour and a half. He's just one of those guys who can kind of captivate you that way.
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So, but I do think that we have to be considerate of the folks. Okay, good.
50:24
Pardon me? And it depends on the chairs. I once saw an ad for a company that was selling furniture for churches.
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And they were showing the pew chairs that were so comfortable that the problem would be people, and it showed them sleeping.
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So, don't buy these chairs that people might sleep in the pews. So, that was really interesting.
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All right, good. Well, I'm so thankful that you're here. You'll be here for the service today, and then tonight, preaching.
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Would you close us in prayer, John? Sure, yes. Heavenly Father, Lord, we just rejoice that we can gather here today with folks of like precious faith.
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It's wonderful that even though separated by distance, we have a common bond in Christ.
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Thank you for the ministry here. Thank you for Mike and his faithfulness to the word. Thank you for the people here who have a heart for the word, who love the
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Lord Jesus Christ. And we praise your name this morning. Thank you for our salvation. Thank you for the hope that we have in Jesus Christ.
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May you be pleased with our worship today. May you open our hearts and minds to receive the word that you've given