A Letter from a Roman Catholic

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of alpha to make a ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line.

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I have a few emails to start things off with Especially uplifting emails here.

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I got this one this afternoon Dear, mr. White. I just want you to know that a professor of a major Catholic University Has required all students to buy your book scripture alone now, you know if if Jerry Vines interpreted this

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This would mean every student everywhere at all times all students. That's clearly what it means

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And it all students To buy your book scripture alone to the purpose of thrashing it to pieces

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That would be a particular Hebrew form thrashing to pieces He is working in conjunction with Catholic answers the largest

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Catholic apologetics organization in the United States We need a sound effect

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Yes Well, they use that the largest

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Catholic apologetics are in the United States Golf clap

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He gives lectures taking your book piece by piece and explaining the ill art illogical argumentation of it

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He also has found blatant lies and stretching of truth I'm compiling these into notes and I'll be sending them to you in the future

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I've read a good portion of your book, which means And I must say

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I am truly amazed at how desperate Protestants are in their argumentation really amazed

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I told the professor that the Catholic Church is so above your low -level amateur a mature e theology and Argumentation that by doing this project we are validating your work

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He responded by saying that we are doing the project not for him you but for the ignorant masses

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That he desperately needs to feed his family and insecure ego

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Anyway, there you go That's from Thank you very much that's from from Paul and My my response my initial

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I I'd actually stood up for my desk I was I was getting ready to leave as gonna having lunch my wife and I'd actually stood up and I I just brought up the meat email program real quickly and there it this was and So my initial response was was fairly brief

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To our good friend Paul here Who is is so?

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Concerned about about this issue and my initial response to him was

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Very very short and it read as follows. I'm bringing it up here Chuckle and who chuckle that's in that's in little little carrot marks there

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And who is this brilliant professor and when would he like to debate in front of his classes question mark smiley face

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James I? I Then invited him to call the program today in a second email sent a little bit later but I Said Oh Paul, I forgot to mention.

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I'll be reading this email the dividing line this afternoon at 4 p .m. Mountain Standard Time I've got to tell him what Mountain Standards how to determine

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Mountain Standard Time because a lot of people really struggle with that particular aspect of things toll -free number is eight seven seven seven five three three three four one please feel free to call in with the documentation of blatant lies and Stretching of truth and illogical argumentation.

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I'm sure my regular listening audience would love to hear your brilliant Presentation so the phone lines are open for for Paul to explain to us the

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Thank you, thank you rich Little honesty there.

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Yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot for that You like that don't you except you need to keep it up till he sings honesty Otherwise the younger folks in the audience are going.

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What was that? What was what was that about? I have no idea what that was about so anyway

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We like I said we do get some interesting emails I also got to this one As well it's been a long time since I said anything about Mark Carpenter and the wild -eyed

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Used to be hyper Calvinist, but now Calvinist is now Calvin's going to hell, too so how do you call somebody a hyper

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Calvinist if if Their theological circle is so narrow that they have to stand on tippy -toe on one foot to stay inside it

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I mean, how do you describe that? I don't know Basically, there's only one person left.

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It's going to heaven and that guy is in in deep danger but anyway this fellow who

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I could not even begin to pronounce his name or given that it's who knows how to Catone Shows a

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I don't know. It's it's it's a very unusual name. I Recently read a section of dealt with Mark Carpenter and there's only one or two on the it's in the

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Reformed Theology sections. I recall I Don't know why you insist on arguing the carpenter demands perfection of knowledge for salvation

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Because he does maybe all Carpenter seems to be saying is you must believe the gospel the right gospel not a false gospel or you will be damned

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Well, of course He makes the definition of false gospel or right got the right gospel

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So narrow that false gospel becomes everything other than this very narrow doctrinal Perfection of knowledge that I just referred to before I never have seen anywhere where Carpenter believes all those who disagree with him on other

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Various doctrines are destined for hell enlighten me if he has why is that so difficult not to speak for Carpenter even defend him?

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I don't know him or his body of work But how does believing a false gospel of works like all

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Armenians? Demonstrate the work of God in regenerating a heart How can you say that one who believes in a works gospel is okay with God?

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But just not very accurate doesn't a false gospel exclude one from the kingdom of God Did the Jews who preach circumcision to the

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Galatians have eternal life even though they're a little bit off from the truth? What of Roman Catholics JWs Mormons, etc

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Aren't they just a little more imperfect in their knowledge of justification in our minions since you allow a false gospel of justification

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By grace plus a little works Why not start letting all the heretics in in order in the order given above?

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Who hath bewitched you that you should turn from the truth? Why add man's willful decision a work John 629 to the gospel of grace and call it acceptable

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I stand in doubt of you what I come away with is concern for you your that's whites

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Understanding I left listening to you years ago when I found you arm -in -arm with Hank H but this anti carpenter rant seems to condemn your understanding as you cozy up to the

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Arminian and their damnable heresy and castigate someone defending the gospel as I see it your understanding has you defending a false gospel and those who hold it in the name of Broadness and then seeking to correct one defending the pure gospel as being too narrow.

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Absolutely amazing And then that's the end of that. Well, you know

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I guess it has been rightly said that if you you take it from both sides, then you're probably safely in the middle

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So so now we have a basically a sounds like a hyper Calvinist there

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Firing from one end and of course, we know the Arminians are Firing around the other end.

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The problem is our minions have cap guns and so they make noise, but don't really fire anything this direction But anyway, so there there you have the the

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Arminians the the non Arminians the hyper Calvinists or whatever in the world they are who who knows like I said last

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I even bothered to look Mark Carpenter had Come to the conclusion that John Calvin himself was not strict enough on the subject of the gospel and therefore had been

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Excluded from heaven these folks in essence are Gnostics and I would Direct you to the commentary made by Tom Askew at our conference on this particular subject

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I think it would assist you greatly in understanding the the fact that both sides are making the same error hyper -Calvinist and then the

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Arminians as well in turning the gospel into a Rationalistic type thing and you might want to take a look at that eight seven seven seven five three three four one

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We finished up the Jerry Vines sermon If we could call it that the the template sermon that's traveling around.

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I wonder who will preach it next who knows It's it's certainly making the rounds.

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You would think after a while start getting a little bit on the old side, you know just a little bit less than than useful, but you know as long as people keep wanting to trot it out and try to Inoculate their church against the evils of Calvinism.

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I'm sure we're gonna hear the same tired worn all means all world

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Argumentation gotta get back to the book and just you know, make sure you yell it loud and and that's

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That is considered to be good enough that is not let's let's at least give

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I give George Bryson his his kudos here that that's not really

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George's problem George George has a lot of problems But he he's not he wrote his own template.

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Let's put that way. You got it. Got to give him that he I mean He thinks Dave huh? I mean he promotes

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Dave hunts and and thinks Dave hunts doing great. But the fact matter is George Bryson Considers himself the

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Calvinist killer the the the great savior of Calvary Chapel from the the attacks of the of the

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Calvinists and He was at it before Dave sort of joined the group. Shall we say so That I'm not a

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Calvinist. I'm not an Arminian. I like broccoli. Yes, that is the That's that's about as good as as my

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I'm not Republican. I'm not Democrat. I'm blue That's the the same same mindset going on.

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I have a cough coming. I can tell it now. I got one guy I'm getting sick, but I'm trying to fight it.

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I'm hoping it's the air I'm because you know, we've had a stagnation alert now for how many days three four days here in Phoenix and Someone just walked by your car.

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I'm not sure who it was out there. But oh Okay, just aren't isn't it neat that I can see that from here.

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I mean, it's really cool I'm sitting here and I can tell someone just walked by your car But that says a lot about our neighborhood that we would be so concerned.

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Hey, hey There's someone near the door Pulling guns out and baseball bats and you know have 9 -1 -1 on speed dial great great neighborhood anyway

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Today is the big day for bad air. Okay. All right. I thought you said bad hair and I was gonna say what should

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I care? My goatee look bad or something. I'm not sure what's going on there. Anyway back to George George Bryson good old

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George If you have not heard the debates that we've done we did a debate in California we did the

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Bible answer man debate and That of course is where we had the famous read my book

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Material, you know, I don't know if that will work on this because I'm It must be an mp3 file

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Because I'm doing this yeah, it says unable to play it because I I'm VPNing instead of in the in the channel directly.

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So it Yes, I'm VPNing to my desktop, how do you think I could read those emails? Yeah, so that's that's why but anyway big deal

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I Mean I can I can open it up here, too That's that's not a big deal, but I do have have

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Bryson ready. So it's probably best to stick with him anyways, that's we got read my book and We also we did a written one and you know what?

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Do want to make a comment before I start playing Bryson here That illustrates why there there is an illustration right then and there of why live debate is superior in many ways to written debate he and I did a written debate and I would say to anyone

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Go ahead and read the written debate. I obviously feel the written debate went very very well, but but the comparison the clarity of The Demonstration of the errors of his position is

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Much clearer in the live debate than it is in the written debate because in a written debate you cannot force someone to ask

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Question to answer questions. You can ask them questions all you want and they can just you know You know dodge and duck and weave and everything else when you do that in a live debate when someone's standing there and you're saying

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So you're saying it means this? Well, no, but it might mean this well, okay, what about this word right here?

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that's where you really find out if someone has any idea what they're talking about or where they don't and So that is that's a good illustration as I said

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George Bryson sees himself as the great savior of the Calvary chapels against Calvinism and he has a pretty high view of his knowledge of Calvinism and Once in a while, he'll say something you go home

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Not too many non Calvinists know that but then when he tries to make sense of that Or when he tries he starts talking really fast and trying to represent, you know things and it just those wheels fall off And it comes to a grinding hall.

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It's really bad I Don't hear anybody, you know objecting to that, but I didn't hear much in a way of audience

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They did ask audience questions But they sort of cut out the actual asking of them just gave his answers because he probably like me

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Never remembers to repeat them. Anyway when that's going on, so let's listen to what

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George Bryson had to say about Calvinism Yeah, I has asked me to come on and do a debate with James White on the radio when

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I've completed this book because they wanted to promo his book and promo My book at the same time

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So they wrote a James White and they said that you know George Bryson has a new book out called the dark side of Calvinism and he goes who should

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I wear my Darth Vader? Outfit my response to them was I thought he already was But I'm not going to repeat that because it's not nice Okay, I want to say something to you too before we get into the content of Calvinism a lot of Again, I'm convinced and I don't consider myself a rocket scientist.

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So you don't have to be a genius But I'm convinced I could keep anybody from becoming a Calvinist But I have a really tough time reaching even a guy that is newly initiated to Calvinism And the thing about that for just a moment

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I mean unless you're going to make the assertion that you're dealing with non -christians and that we're talking about a cult movement here

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Why would that be the case? I? mean remember we started playing the previous portion we played the previous portion of this up to the

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Darth Vader comment and We play the stuff about You know, basically what he's saying is

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I can poison someone's mind to reform theology If I get to him before they can actually hear the truth about Calvinism, I don't know how else to put it

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That's that's what he said. I can poison someone's mind as long as there's not a Calvinist there but what he's saying now is but even

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I even me knowing so much about Calvinism I Have a hard time getting any

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Calvinist to convert. Well George. There's a reason for that. I Mean there's there's there's you know, this says something that there's an explanation for this that maybe somebody

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Should explain why the reason for that is it's not because it's a cult It's because if someone actually has an accurate understanding of the system, they're going to realize you don't

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I think I'm pretty good at what? I do. I'm pretty you know, I have my facts down. I understand the doctor spent a lot of years on this issue

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I'm pretty good with theology. I understand the nature of language and how it's worked and the positions and the

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You know the perceptions of of a reformed theologian and I still have a tough time

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Reaching in and getting people out if somebody got to them first, but the most common

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Reaction to me like if if you had one of my little books the five points of Calvinism and somebody in your church

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Was getting into it you decide, you know, you know what I'll do is I'll give them this book There's a real good chance if they've already gotten into it.

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They won't even touch it because there's a non Calvinist I'm supposedly unable to understand Calvinist.

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I Don't know it's not a matter of inability, but seemingly unwillingness

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I mean there's there's I would say the dedication to a tradition here an

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Arminian tradition or a I need to talk. We need to come up with a name for I a's inconsistent

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Arminians is You know that will will for some reason hold to a belief in Quote unquote eternal security perseverance of the

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Saints While having ripped all of the theological underpinnings of that belief out before you got there all in the service of free will so I Mean they're synergists

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But they're not Roman Catholic synergists, so, you know, what are they

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I Think he is he is might work inconsistent Arminians synergy.

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See is Synergistic inconsistent Arminians. There you go. See is see ya

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Whatever That that's not gonna work. Well, we'll come up with a name eventually, but that's that's what these these folks are all about Oh Calvinism, I'm speaking of And about Calvinism from an

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Arminian perspective and you know to understand reformed theology You have to be in the reformed theology and that's really weird thinking

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But that's how a lot of people think and so some of you pastors I've heard lots from pastors who say I tried to get somebody to read your book and they wouldn't do it because they said you

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Don't know what you're talking about. Well, how do they know what I'm that? I don't know what I'm talking about If they won't read what I've said I Know you know, the funny thing is

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I I ordered his book man. I don't have any problem with somebody looking at George Bryson's book

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Because you know we can read his book all we want and like I said he's shooting at us with a cap gun and it may make noise and may impress the people behind you, but You go ahead and shoot at me with a cap gun

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That's that's not a big deal Because there's nothing of substance coming out the barrel because they already know that since I'm not a

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Calvinist that I Can't be right and what I say because Calvinism is is the standard by which you judge everything else since I'm against Calvinism They don't even give it the time of day if you can get him to read it

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They'll rethink it, but I wanted to point this out when I speak about Calvinism This is a quote from from Charles Spurgeon He said

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I speak of it as I find it in Calvin's Institutes and especially in his expositions

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I have read them carefully, and I take not my views of Calvinism from common repute, but from his books

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I'm one of the few people stupid enough to have read the entire Institutes from now of course

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I immediately stop and go And you didn't realize that the vast majority of what the Institute's talked about have nothing to do with what you complain about Calvinism anyways

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But listen to how much just in listening to this section eventually he gets to reading

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Calvin But only one section the vast majority of the citations in this presentation are not from John Calvin Even though he just said this in regards to well

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You know I'm stupid enough to read counting to end and not just the early abbreviated version that some people think is

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You know everybody's impressed with Calvin's first book. He wrote it at 27 the

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Institute's But that was a very small version of the Institute's He was much older in life before he completed the

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Institute's, but I understand Calvinism from Calvin There are a lot of people today that say Calvin wasn't a

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Calvinist, and I want I'm here to tell you he was In fact Calvin was a hyper

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Calvinist by today's definition He was a real authentic and as much as you can humanly be he was a consistent

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Calvinist now He was inconsistent because Calvinism is itself inconsistent you can't

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Logically embrace everything Calvinism says because Calvinism Assumes some contradictory

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Propositions it's impossible to be completely inconsistent, and I will point that out

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And I do point out a lot of my book What it's impossible to be completely inconsistent.

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I think he was going to try to say consistent, but then he said Calvinism is inconsistent and That that's that's the problem here you you got somebody who

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You know when you press them on on when they make these kinds of scholarly missteps

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Well, I don't I don't claim to be a scholar. You know I'm not a rocket scientist Then they'll turn around say, but I sure have spent years on this one

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You know and I've been studying this and I've been studying that and blah blah blah blah blah blah, and it's like Which which one are you do here, which which which perspective are you going to present yourself in but?

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It's important to know that when I talk about it. I'm not talking about what somebody told me about Calvinism I have read the

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Institute's I've read the commentaries, and I also know what all the mainstream

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Calvinist creeds and confessions hold what all of the different Calvinist Catechisms are what the difference between what they call

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Westminster and continental Calvinism I know the difference between the so -called hoopoe and hyper Calvinist. I know the difference all of these are

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Understandable now. I don't want you to waste your whole life reading them trust me There's all in other words

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I'm the expert on this for Calvary Chapel And I will tell you what to believe a lot of different variations and versions of Calvinism But there's some core issues that really make up what true

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Calvinism is and we're going to discuss that But my exposure to Calvinism is to Calvinism itself

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I know Calvinism from Calvin and from the leading Calvinist, and I know the difference.

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I was accused once of writing a horrible book Because I couldn't distinguish between a hyper

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Calvinist and a hoopoe Calvinist well in the book I point out over and over the differences between the two

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I point out the difference between what I call the hard and the soft Between the extreme and the mainstream.

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I recognize clearly these guys don't agree with every You know agree with each other on everything and I recognize that so it's important to do that, but by dismissing somebody like me, then you don't have to hear what

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I have to say and That way they can protect themselves. They think they have it all figured out

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George trust me we Appreciate the opportunities when you actually expose yourself to full dialogue on this subject we really do because We do not fear your criticism

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And I can assure you as as one of the Calvinists who has interacted with you more often than anyone else

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I would debate you again. Yes as you know George Bryson Hoping that you will listen to this someday

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We wanted to debate up in Salt Lake City, but you're the one who would not allow for the debate to take place specifically the debate which involves

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Cross -examination yes that time when you actually have to answer questions based upon the text of the scriptures and Not just throw out all sorts of emotional arguments based upon a quotation of Calvin and That that wouldn't wouldn't happen.

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So George still open to doing that I'm sure the people up in Salt Lake City are still open to that as well and Would love to do that.

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But no, it's it's not a matter of trying to protect Ourselves at all. He honestly George obviously views himself as a great crusader who has vanquished many a

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Calvinist and I Can assure you from our perspective? That's not a viewpoint to make sense, but they live many of them in a cocoon as long as they're the aggressors

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It's kind of like the job witnesses go to their door and see what happens They're in their pajamas.

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They don't know where all those things are either, you know, so they get you They get you on their turf and they got you but turn it around a little bit and with So I There's there's a guy

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I may have recorded this last year But it's important and on the back of the new edition of the five points Calvinism You'll see a quote from a reformed theologian people wonder why

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I would quote a reformed theologian Well, it's just about all I do quote the biggest single criticism of my

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First book I got more criticism from Calvinist because I quoted Calvin all the time

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I actually got kicked off a radio program in Orange County a reformed Show because I refused they asked me there to defend my non -Calvinist views, but they said

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I couldn't quote Calvin well, I said to defend my non -Calvinist views I had to refute

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Calvinism and you can't really do it without an appeal to Calvin They said well by quoting Calvin you just misleading people, but How can

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I do that? I'm here to talk about Calvinism and they're saying if you cannot Refrain from quoting

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Calvin then we don't watch back on the show. So I said goodbye now I saw Over on the narrow mind website that they were going to have the manager of that station on To explain what really happened.

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I have not heard that program yet. Sorry if it's already aired but my gut feeling

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Would be somewhat along these lines he was probably asked to present his own perspective from a biblical point of view and Instead chose just simply to spend all his time attacking

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Calvinism and it's it's that's not giving a positive perspective That's not answering the questions and this is what came up in the

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Bible answer man debate was when I would ask him Okay, how does God have knowledge of future events?

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Well, we know that God knows the future because God knows future events Well, thank you very much.

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That's that's that's good. That's that's a start But that's not really

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You know, it's one thing to just rip and shred on on one particular perspective it's something completely different to actually present a coherent

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Consistent theology from your own perspective and Evidently what they're asking him to do was all right

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If Calvinism isn't right, then could you answer the same questions that Calvinism claims to answer?

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But do so from the scriptures not just simply from quoting John Calvin and that evidently was what he did not wish to do

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Or was not capable of doing or or whatever else it might be And I didn't show up for my third in a series of five shows.

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I was there, but I just didn't go on the air I said why waste my time here? I want people out there to hear what

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Calvin really said. It's what Calvin said that really matters But every once in a while,

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I'll now by the way, let me just stop it. Actually. It's not what Calvin said that really matters these he seems to be functioning under the idea that this entire argument

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Only dates from the days of John Calvin and that simply isn't the case obviously this goes way before that and so to to limit it to just quotations from John Calvin is to seriously damage the entirety of the

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Of the of the discussion. Well, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number

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We need to take our bottom -of -the -hour break and then we'll be back with more of George Bryson and your phone calls

29:52

We'll be right back right after this Alpha and Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the

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Lord in the bookstore at a omen .org This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

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If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

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Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day

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And welcome back to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon a holiday

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Thursday afternoon listening to a Recording from a little over two years ago.

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No three years ago now. I would guess it was sometime prior to Well, let's see now.

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I think about it What's to say a 14th? 14 so it was about 16.

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It was the 16th. I think the December 16th or 17th one or two was when we did the the

33:47

BAM program back in 2003 it's been three years now since I've been on the program and Had that wonderful three -hour experience with with And we're listening to a presentation he made to Calvary Chapel pastors

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I don't know how many Calvary Chapel pastors, but a fairly large group of them prior to that program so I would assume

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October November somewhere around in there is when this took place and we're getting some insight into the mindset of the type of person who views themselves as a

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Defender of the faith Against Calvinism views themselves as having a special capacity to get people out of Calvinism so we continue on a while.

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I'll get a letter from a Calvinist or I'll read something Calvinist said And I know that they actually read the book and here's one by a very well -known

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Calvinist professor theologian he said George Bryson is a very unusual non -Calvinist notice

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He doesn't call me an Arminian He is able to describe the doctrinal positions of Calvinism without putting any extra eggs in the pudding

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His descriptions are fair and accurate and he clearly knows the subject the first portion of the book the place where he does

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All this is very good the name of this book is the five points of Calvinism Wade and found wanting

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Now the man who said this about me Was heralded by R .C.

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Sproul as one of the brightest sharpest young Calvinist in the world today, and he just did a glowing a

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Glowing recommendation of him and of his book so this guy who was considered by probably the leading mainstream

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Calvinist of our age R .C. Sproul is Recommended as one of the best Calvinists and reform thinkers of our time said

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I knew what I was talking about the how they can say Typically and dismiss me. I want you just to have this argument and say this book.

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You know distorts and misrepresents Calvinism Let me stop and cough

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Stop there a second You know if that happened and I was talking James only ism that would end up on text

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Mars website someplace And that's the person being spoken of there,

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I just verified with the uber librarian And now now she mentioned that I do remember it the person being spoken of there is none other than Douglas Wilson yeah,

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Doug Wilson is the one who said that about Calvinism Wade and found wanting and I you know

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I'm sorry, but this will not be the first time. I've said Doug Wilson is wrong about something But something tells me there was more to the letter than that I would love to see the entirety of what what

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Doug actually said He probably said now having said that the rest of the book is really laughable. Did you mean this seriously?

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We know that Then again you might be a little you might be careful Doug Wilson is is great with a satire

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You sort of have to wonder if that wasn't meant to be taken completely tongue -in -cheek out of I don't know

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But anyways, that's the story Why is it that R .C. Sproul could recommend him and then he can turn around and recommend me?

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So think about that as you're going through this Think about how good I am. Yes.

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This is the first issue. We have to contend with a lot of people think this is extraneous But it's really central to what it's all about Herman Hoeksema says for me the truth of the gospel and the reformed faith are synonymous

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The truth of the gospel and the reformed faith are synonymous Charles Spurgeon a

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Mainstreamer has modest and now hold on a second. Let me go back to the first one

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Again, what do you expect us to say if if we believe that God is about Glorifying himself in the gospel that God is about glorifying

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Himself in salvation what you want us to say You just said this is not an extraneous issue.

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We happen to agree. And so we say that the full

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God honoring rendition of the gospel is found in reformed theology not in that which negates reformed theology

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Why is that so? Offensive to you again. I mean you say that your viewpoint is actually the gospel

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You know just because you can't come up with a name with it for it and and it's you know

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It doesn't really compel anybody to do it. What's I've never figured that part as Restrained as most people not an anti -arminian by the way

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Spurgeon definitely disagreed with Arminianism and thought it was a heresy But he had a lot of Arminian friends and loved them.

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And so he wasn't an anti Arminian But he said this there is no such thing

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Charles Spurgeon no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified unless you preach what is called

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Calvinism it is a nickname to call it Calvinism Calvinism is the gospel and nothing else

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Arthur Constance's Calvinism is the gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the gospel

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It is questionable whether a dogmatic theology, which is not Calvinistic is truly

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Christian I think at times honestly he he thinks

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He is so scandalized by these things That he thinks that all he's got to do is read these things and everyone just go because I have him during the debate he would throw these things out there and the

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Problem was he forgot the context he was in or he didn't realize the context he was and I almost

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I Saw I felt badly for I expected to be in the minority in Southern, California at the vineyard for crying out loud.

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I wasn't Nobody from the vineyard showed up because they all had to be at the mime thing remember

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You remember that were you there weren't you you weren't? Oh Okay.

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Well, there's there was a mime ministry meeting that night elsewhere on the campus and so Basically there was there was nobody from the vineyard there which is why

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We had the problems we have with the camera and stuff is because there was nobody there who knew how to use the stuff other than like one sound man, and he left, you know, and so there was nobody from the vineyard and here's like the number three guy in the

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Calvary Chapel movement and there's Almost nobody from Calvary Chapel there at all. I mean just it was it was sad

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It was it was almost embarrassing the vast majority of people there were reformed And a lot of reformed

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Baptists a lot of reformed guys who left Calvary Chapel's and became reformed are here to to listen to this thing and So it was it was it was it was quite the interesting evening no no no two ways about it, but he'd

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He'd read these things. He'd read these quotes from Calvin and then there would be this pregnant pause

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Just waiting for everybody to go. Oh and the problem is 75 % reformed and we're all going

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Yeah Okay. Yeah, that's yep. Uh -huh. And your point is They did it just left him flat -footed.

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It really did. Okay, I'm still stuck on the mime thing Are you sure that the the mimes didn't come to your event and and the

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Calvary Chapel people went to the mime event? And that's why nobody said anything when he spoke the mimes, but they weren't they silent

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They weren't making any movement there. Oh, no, no hand gestures. No. No. Yeah. Okay, no shock.

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No, it's a little silent shock I still want to know how is it the mimes have

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I'm gonna have to have a I'm gonna have to get a cough button for your entire microphone

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See a reach of that thing just It's like nope, nope, uh -uh.

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No, you're not. No, no, not not now. Hey Bettner probably The man who's written the most influential book on mainstream

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Calvinism in the world today Published in many many languages and used at all of the mainstream reform

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Theological Institute says this the Bible unfolds a scheme of redemption Which is

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Calvinistic from beginning to end and these doctrines are taught with such inescapable Clearness that the question is settled for all those who accept the

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Bible as the Word of God So do you accept the Bible as the Word of God if you do you can see how clearly the

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Bible teaches Calvinism when it comes to the doctrine of redemption Yeah, I would happen to agree with that if you allow the text to speak for itself and if you engage in meaningful exegesis which is what we keep trying to get people to do and Instead they just you know want to quote

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Calvin about something He's a giant an intellectual great theologian many years great defender of the

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Christian faith a great defender of the inerrancy of God God's Word also said in addition to that Calvinism is just Christianity Nothing more or less than the hope of the world

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John Piper one of the darlings of the Calvinist world today probably as popular as RC Sproul a very very

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Charismatic Figure who a lot of people are looking to today to lead them in this new reform

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Reformation He says the doctrines of grace ie total depravity unconditional action limited atonement

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Irresistible grace perseverance of the Saints are the warp and the whoop of the biblical gospel that so many

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Saints Be warped and wolf He said

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Yeah, I've mispronounced things too, but I do find it somewhat hilarious when you've got this on your

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PowerPoint presentation have cherished for centuries Kenneth Talbot and Jerry Crampton said any compromise of Calvinism is a step towards humanism

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Lorraine Bettner again, there is no consistent stopping place between Calvinism and atheism

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You might as well Go the whole way down the slippery slope if you don't believe in Calvinism You're on your way to atheism

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Now, let's me. You know, I remember I mentioned I was listening to this while writing and I heard him say that and What was and I remember?

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Bettner saying that Read that many many many years ago but What what was he actually stating?

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What's his point? His point is not that there are not people all along that spectrum there are

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What he's saying is they they by definition Have to be inconsistent with themselves.

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And what is the hallmark of what we discover from these folks in? Consistency and Inability to remain true to the statements that you make when we listen to the vine sermon, you know

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We listen to him at one point laying the foundation for universalism and then next point contradicting that they are

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Inconsistent with themselves and that of course was Bettner's point is that there is no consistent stopping place

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Because you're talking about consistent theism over against atheism putting the two together

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There's no consistent stopping place between the two. I love this one.

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It's my favorite You got to stay with me on this because it's rather lengthy and I wish I had it up here, but just hang in here a blind

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This is supposed to be a compliment a blind Death and dumb man can it is true know something of the world about him through the senses remaining

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But his knowledge will be very imperfect and probably inaccurate in a similar way a Christian who never knows or never accepts the deeper

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Teachings of the Bible which Calvinism embodies may be a Christian But he will be a very imperfect

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Christian and it should be the duty of those who know the whole truth To attempt to lead him into the only storehouse which contains the full riches of true

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Christianity so you're like a Spiritually deaf blind and numb person, you know some things about the truth, but not very much and what you do know what little bit you do know is going to be accurate just like a man who is blind deaf and dumb in the natural world and if you really have this truth if you got your eyes open if you can hear if you can

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See what a Calvinist can see. Well, you're only doing them a favor by trying to Win them over these poor blind deaf and dumb non

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Calvinists. They need our help It's your duty. It's your responsibility to bring people into the only place they can find the riches of Christ ie the reformed faith again, if if given the presupposition if you believe that you are consistently and accurately handling the

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Word of God and if you believe that is the natural bent of man to exalt his own capacities at the

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Destruction of God's free will and capacities then would it not follow that we have the same motivation that well that George Bryson thinks he has in Attacking Calvinism now there is one difference here and I think goes back that radio station thing

47:39

George doesn't offer much in in response a inconsistent

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Armenian fluffy Vague non -defined gospel presentation is sort of taken as a as a given.

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Well, it just must be what I believe if What you believe is wrong and so there isn't a

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Passionate heartfelt defense of any particularly clear theology on his point on his part mainly because they are so almost frightened of Having a defined theology that can be identified with a particular name or something along those lines

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But that would be a difference between us is that we have a very defined theology and and he His greatest definition is only against Calvinism without Calvinism.

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I don't know that he could define his theology SG Craig says the Calvinist does not differ from other

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Christians of kind but only in degree as more or less good specimens of A thing differ from more or less bad specimens of a thing.

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Guess who the bad specimen is You got it now you can see how you know, he's playing to his audience here he's got a captive audience of people that are going to be presupposed to Listen to what he has to say and go

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Bettner says we are not all Calvinist as we travel the road to heaven, but we shall all be

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Calvinist when we get there That's for Charles Spurgeon said

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I do not ask whether you believe in Calvinism it is possible you may not but I believe you will be before you enter heaven and He also said and I won't quote it here.

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But basically the reason you're gonna Believe in Calvinism is because God's gonna wash your brain clean of all non

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Calvinist ideas before you get there Well, and whatever it is

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George Bryson identifies himself as isn't that what you believe? I mean you you believe that what you believe is biblical and then therefore the false ideas if Calvinism is to be washed out of my brain then your objection again is exactly what

49:50

I There is none James Kennedy not really considered hostile to non

49:55

Calvinist who is what they call a hoopoe Calvinist a very mild Calvinist says I am a

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Calvinist precisely because I love the Bible and the God of the Bible the Doctrines of the Calvinist theological system are the doctrines of the

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Bible when you get to know what we actually believe you may find you Two are a Calvinist Especially if you love the

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Lord Jesus Christ and it is up and desire to serve him with all your heart Well, who doesn't want to serve the

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Lord with all their heart and love the Lord with all their heart. That's the appeal You see you it's okay.

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If you're not Calvinist, you really love God you will be Now this is this is again a man who came up with the whole evangelism explosion people wonder

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How could that be effective? First of all, he denies the most basic premise of Calvinism in order to make this program work

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But we won't get into that right now According to best Bettner the Calvinist system especially emphasizes five distinct doctrines

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These are technically known as the five points of Calvinism and they are the main pillars upon which the superstructure rest.

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We know That Calvinism according to Calvinist is the gospel. We know it's the only hope of mankind

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We know that unless you're blind deaf and dumb spiritually you're going to see Calvinism as the truth

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We know the Bible teaches reform theology at least as far as the doctrine of salvation is concerned from beginning to end any

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You know Knuckle Walker could see that right? So Lorraine Bettner also says now these five points are not isolated and independent doctrines but are so interrelated that they form a simple harmonious self -consistent system and the way in which they fit together as component parts of a well -ordered

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Whole has won the admiration of thinking men of all creeds Prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system

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Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned They are found to dovetail perfectly one into the other now the theme of our

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Discussion last year for those that came was can you be a one two or three point Calvinist Calvinist who know

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Calvinism say no And since I am a non Calvinist who knows Calvinism I would agree and also say no they all do dovetail together five points of Calvinism according to Joseph Wilson Wilson the five doctrines

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Form a harmonious soul not one of them can be changed without giving disharmony to the whole and causing confusion is how men are really saved

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Now At this point most of us. I think would be in an agreement

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Obviously our Emerald Ian friends would be saying something differently But in the vast majority of instances at this point just in regards the consistency of the points their relationship to one another yes, that makes perfect sense and I would likewise then point out that to hold to the fifth point

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Without holding to the first four probably means that you're standing in midair which of course is exactly where George finds himself in that particular issue

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In order to be a consistent to be consistent one must hold to all five points of Calvinism.

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That's Charles Bronson Not the actor by the way Also reason granted any one of these five points.

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Just give me says one point The rest must follow inevitably deny any one of them Excuse me and the whole structure is in danger one cannot satisfactorily defend some points

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Not the others and the reason this is important, and I bring this up is Every new Calvinist is a three or four point

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Calvinist I've never met a person new to the reformed faith who embraces all five points never

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Well that gives you a real idea immediately That gives you a real idea

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Immediately of the breadth and length of George Bryson's experience in dealing with With Calvinist right then and there, but if they stay with it long enough

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They will there's only a handful of so -called four -point Calvinist in the whole world only a few people historically could even name

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Strong who did the Strong's Concordance was a four -point Calvinist. I am suggesting that that's a logical impossibility

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Now he's a four -point Calvinist Formally, but it is impossible to be a four -point

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Calvinist Especially considering the point that he says he doesn't believe in the point most people who say the forced four -point

54:25

Calvinist Disagree with is what limited atonement, but I'm saying Limited atonement is an afterthought the real issue is election

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We're going to get to that in a moment if you believe in the Calvinist doctrine of election You believe in limited atonement you can tell me you don't but I know you do because I understand the doctrine of election

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If you say you believe in the doctrine of election, but you don't believe in limited atonement I'm going to tell you to your face. You don't believe in the doctrine of a limited atonement

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You can say to me what you don't know what I believe I told you what I believe I said, but you don't understand what you're saying if you understood what you were saying

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It's impossible to believe in Anything, but limited atonement and not believe in the doctrine of election

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So let's see if we can get a couple more of these if you do not know the five points as Cred Well, well, well,

55:08

Fred, yeah, Fred Phelps, that's who he quotes, believe it or not, boy, we could find some pretty whacked out

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Calvinist, Calvinist, Calvinist chapel people. We should start the Calvinist chapel movement. Yeah, we could find some pretty whacked out

55:25

Calvary chapel people and quote them as if that's somehow relevant to the issue. But I was going to stop him before he started going too fast there.

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He does have a tendency to start going really fast that in general.

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In general, I would agree that the vast majority of actual objections to particular redemption limited atonement are actually objections to unconditional election.

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And so at that point, I would I would agree with that. You start quoting Fred Phelps and you've just lost all your credibility of Calvinism.

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If you do not know the five points of Calvinism, you do not know the gospel, but some perversion of it.

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If you do not have a thorough knowledge, he says, and understanding the five points of Calvinism, you are truly in darkness and ignorance of all divine truth.

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And if you do not have an intelligent belief in the in and love for the five points of Calvinism, you have no rational religion, but are bound up in superstition and religious lies.

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Now, what points are the points that they're referring to? I'm only going to talk about two of them because I really want to get into some discussion on this with you today.

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But the key issue, the key issue is election.

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All the rest is implied, even if they didn't have the other four points, you can work your way into those four points.

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Just give me election. I'll give you the rest. But let's just take election for a moment. Election, essentially, in lay terms is this.

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God is interested in saving only some people and therefore made a decision from eternity past to save those people he's interested in saving.

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Now, immediately, we stop right there and as we're just about to run out of time anyway, and recognize that we're not starting on a good foot.

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We're not starting with anything solid at this particular point in time because the fact that we have avoided two of the most important issues that come before election.

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And that has to do with the decree of God, God's nature, God's sovereign rulership over creation to just jump into the subject of election without dealing with all these other issues,

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God's decree, without dealing with man's sin, without dealing with man's depravity, without dealing with any of these things, to just dive in and then state it in that way that God just wants to save some people.

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Well, to what purpose? What is the purpose that even from a, you know, leaving the term Calvinism out, just looking at Ephesians 1, what is his purpose?

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The praise of his glorious grace. Well, there needs to be a demonstration of that. That's where the issue of sin and rebellion comes in.

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Sovereignty, all those things come in there to just dive in there, demonstrates that unfortunately,

58:23

George Bryson, for all his protested knowledge, actually doesn't know the subject nearly as well as he would like to think that he does.

58:29

Well, we will continue with Mr. Bryson and his Calvary Chapel mindset insight into how to protect people from Calvinism and your phone calls.

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Hopefully, maybe Paul will call with those blatant lies and stuff next Tuesday on The Dividing Line. We'll see you then.

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God bless. Standing at the crossroads, let this moment flow away.

58:55

We must contend for the faith our fathers fought for. We need a new Reformation day.

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Saturday, it's time to make some noise.

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I stand up. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

59:34

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59:40

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59:45

World Wide Web at AOMIN .org, that's A -O -M -I -N .org, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates and tracks.