Nadir Ahmed

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:13

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:27

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

00:37

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

00:43

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

00:50

James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line Thursday afternoon the last day of January I can't believe the first month of the year is already over and Time goes by ever faster the older you get but anyway

01:09

That's not meant depressingly. That's just the way it is just a few moments ago,

01:15

I Posted a blog article on the blog if you all want to go see it and the blog article is about the

01:27

Steve Gregg debate and the fact that As far as a person -to -person debate at Twin Lakes Church on March 30th that has been called off I called it off this morning.

01:40

I Won't go back over the nine minutes worth of video. I just posted but I'll just summarize

01:48

It became very clear that There was going to be some

01:55

That's interesting There's going to be some issues as far as the church is concerned

02:04

And That's I Do not want to put a church in a situation with a debate on this subject.

02:13

That would be a problem for them Since there was offense even over the blog article that I put up.

02:21

I think it was less than a week ago I know that much Where I noted some statements that Steve Gregg had made about me and Steve has apologized for those.

02:35

He indicates they were meant to be taken in a more light -hearted way and But I had posted them on the blog.

02:42

Some of the church had seen it and it had caused Quite a stir and I figured if two months out something that Non -offensive and a very tepid in comparison to what would take place during a debate

02:59

Had caused that kind of a problem that clearly this is not the appropriate Context for a debate on this particular subject

03:08

I do not want to cause issues within the church there and besides that Steve Gregg and I both have

03:14

Well, you're listening to the dividing line. He has it's called the narrow path and So we can obviously work out to where We can

03:24

Simulcast, you know, I can call into his his program through our phone lines. We can have his program going out through our webcast and both record at the same time and so we are going to find like a week where we can do that and so I don't see anything lost there other than videotaping and I Don't think that's you know, necessarily

03:48

Relevant to the issue and we avoid all of the problems of offense for people and so on so forth

03:55

So I put that up on the blog just before the program started would have gotten it up earlier

04:00

But it takes a while to upload videos And even even though my desk units got a fairly decent processor in it

04:06

You know you the higher quality video you try to go with I even knocked this down a couple So it'd be a little bit faster.

04:12

So it would get done in time to get uploaded to them To the to the program so before the program started so that's there and I Hope I do not see

04:25

Anybody saying I see you just you can't take on Steve Greg blah blah blah blah. I Really hope

04:33

I don't see that The facts are just so obvious and and I would like to think that that even

04:40

Steve would try to Nip that in the bud because we are going to do that encounter

04:46

And we're just gonna have to do it in a different context that does not quite require as much

04:53

As many other people involved shall we say so hopefully that will that will work out So I've already got some people a griping and channel because they live up in California, and they're like hey finally and then

05:05

You know, but I will be up there in May I'll be in In that same neighborhood,

05:11

I guess for the fire conference, so I'll be speaking up there in in May as I recall So, you know, we'll still get a chance to talk with folks.

05:19

All right with that I Will have to admit this is certainly the most unusual

05:28

Beginning to a dividing line I've ever seen because I just sat down and Was Getting stuff put together here on the laptop that I use for the program here in the studio and the first call

05:48

Appearing on my on my screen here Is an announcement of something that I had no knowledge of so I'm just gonna go ahead and see what happens here and talk with Now they're

06:01

Ahmed in Illinois another what's going on? Oh, how you doing James doing?

06:06

All right, I See here on my screen Something about the debate what's going on?

06:14

Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about the debate challenge Which you posed to me on the reliability of the

06:19

New Testament, which of course I accepted and I think we were scheduled for I think

06:25

March 21st Well, I wanted to talk to you because well, of course, I also want to debate the Quran which is something because of course our website

06:32

Examine the truth comm is a Islamic debate website, but I was under the impression that we were just going to debate

06:40

The reliability of the New Testament on the 21st. So but if you want to debate both That's fine with me

06:46

But I think I'm going to have to push the date ahead or behind or after the March 21st Basically because it's gonna take some time to prepare all the material for both debates

06:57

Mr. Ahmed, I've made it very clear in the emails that I am more than happy to defend the

07:07

Integrity of the text of the New Testament This week you began attempting to establish rules for the debate that in essence presuppose

07:19

My inability to stay on a topic and in essence you are asking that Any discussion of the textual history of the

07:28

Quran? be precluded and I said first of all I have done many debates and I have a documented history that demonstrates that I Know what the topic is and I know how to stay on the topic.

07:41

That's a be What I said was that any ancient text any written ancient text whether it's the

07:50

Quran Tacitus the Mishnah Doesn't matter what it is if the issue is the consistency of Argumentation being used against the

08:01

New Testament Then I can obviously point to any ancient text whether it's the

08:07

Quran or any other As an example of the methodologies that are used in the transmission of a printed text

08:14

I have not asked you to debate the issue of the Quran. I have simply said that Inserting Unnecessary rules, which no other person

08:26

I've ever debated on any subject in any context has ever demanded or asked for other than you is simply

08:34

Without any basis since you cannot point to any situation Where I have violated the debate rules and debates

08:41

I have done Then you have no grounds for doing this And so I simply said in my last email look if you want to debate

08:49

Your assertion that the New Testament is corrupted and as you recall when you came to my church on a

08:55

Sunday evening You said that you could easily demonstrate the corruption of the New Testament in about six minutes

09:01

You'll be given at least 20 here, which would be about three times more time than you said that you would need so What you why you have a problem with that?

09:11

I do not know I don't know Well, I don't think you're understanding me,

09:17

I mean, of course, you know, I'd love to bait to debate both topics But what I'm saying is it's going to be kind of tough for me to do to do it all in one topic in one debate

09:26

See the problem is if you're going to challenge the Quran's authenticity and say that there are quote textual variations

09:32

Which is a big lie, of course Then you know, I'm going to drop the topic on the Bible and I'm going to challenge you on the

09:37

Quran And I can't do both in one debate Well, if you want to debate the Quran or you want to challenge the authenticity of the

09:44

Quran, let's do it, mr Mr. Mr. Ahmed All I have said and any logical and rational person understands what

09:52

I'm saying and you're not acting logically irrationally here And we are recording this so I would be very measured in my terminology what

10:01

I have said is that I will defend the integrity of the New Testament and if you use any

10:08

Argument that is inconsistent with any ancient text that is

10:14

That would require us to reject the textual integrity of any ancient text including the

10:20

Quran and if you want to go And if you want to go on record like you just did in saying that there are no textual variations in the

10:28

Quran I think you just said that I will be glad to provide the photographic evidence that demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about But I'll be that as it be that as it may if you want to use

10:40

Arguments against the New Testament that would demonstrate that the Quran is corrupted then logically any

10:49

Rational person would want to know that you are using double Standards because the use of double standards is irrational and demonstrates that the person using them has lost the argument

11:01

I have not asked you to defend the Quran against any form of in any debate

11:08

I have not asked you to do two debates on the subject to say that I have is untrue and of course

11:14

Not only you but I both have all of and mr.

11:20

Wood all have the emails that have been exchanged and If I have to waste my time posting them

11:27

I will but I am NOT going to be limited in a debate to Saying well, okay my opponent

11:35

Just made an argument that would actually contradict his own scriptures, but I can't say anything about it because he made me promise

11:40

I wouldn't I mean that is absolutely ridiculous sir. No You're not understanding me what

11:46

I'm saying is for this situation Can we do two debates one on the

11:52

Quran one on the Bible so we can see if I'm using a double Standard or not which

11:58

I believe I will not be doing sir We have a situation here where David would and others have arranged are arranging

12:06

Locations as I understand they already have five debates scheduled. They have room for one other and that would be ours obviously if trying to arrange another debate in another location means more travel means trying to come up with the

12:25

Shipping of video equipment and everything else and in this period of time That's not a possibility if you want to do other debates

12:33

I've already mentioned to you at the very beginning that there is a debate that I want to do on Surah 4 157 and I already have a context for that and they are willing to do that in September of this year

12:45

So if you will be just but somewhat patient That there will be plenty of time to do as many as we can

12:54

But the idea of bailing out of March Because of some idea of doing two debates or something like that.

13:02

I haven't challenged you to do two debates I've only challenged you to do one and all I've said is

13:07

I'm not going to be have Artificial rules placed upon me that says

13:12

I can't point out double standards if you use double standards I'm going to point it out. If you don't I won't have to it's just that simple

13:19

Okay, I don't think we're getting anywhere. So I tell you what The for this debate

13:24

Well, all I'm what all I'm trying to say here is that if you're going to raise something about the Quran Then I got a drop the topic of the car of the

13:31

Bible and I got to start defending the Quran And if that's what I have to do on March 21st, then fine.

13:37

I will do that I will not be using a double standard The problem is in your mind you have been fooled into thinking that there's textual variations of the

13:45

Quran When there is not and I'm saying no there's not so now we're going to be debating Okay, let me let me ask you okay now, let me ask you something how can

13:53

I be fooled in my mind by the photographs of the palimpsest manuscript manuscripts like e 20 that clearly show the standard forms of textual

14:06

Emendation that exists in the handwritten copies of the earliest

14:12

Quran's how how what what how does someone? fool me Into seeing that kind of material.

14:20

Could you could you tell me? Okay, so you want to debate me on the on this issue right now. Is that what you want? Okay, you want no, sir

14:25

You just you said it's a lie and you just made an assertion that I've been fooled into it

14:31

So I'm just I'm just asking you what kind of mechanism can fool me

14:36

Into seeing that kind of textual variation. I'm just wondering how that works

14:42

All right. Let me go ahead and squash this nonsense, which by the way, you've been you know using against Shabir Ali who is a dummy and doesn't defend

14:50

Islam and that's why I came to your church to tell you well Do yourself a favor

14:55

Shabir Ali is a well -spoken and intelligent man and not really standard make yourself look very foolish when you call a man like Shabir Ali a

15:08

A dummy sir that sir and besides that despite the fact that I obviously have tremendous disagreements with Shabir Ali and I Disagree very strongly with the forms of argumentation.

15:25

He has used Shabir Ali has never Mistreated me during a debate.

15:31

He has always been a gentleman and His followers have never written to me calling me a coward and saying

15:40

I was running away from him either and So if we're talking about who is a attractive to Islam I just simply point out to you that the person who behaves in a way as Shabir Ali behaves is significantly more

15:56

Attractive to someone than someone who uses bullying tactics and calls people's names.

16:01

Okay. Well, let me just respond to that very quickly here Who is going to represent Islam and who Muslims think should represent

16:08

Islam is not going to be you James white It's going to be us. Okay, and I can show you several people tons of people

16:16

In fact, I talked to Shabir Ali about this who say he doesn't know what the hell he's doing I mean, excuse me, keep your language clean, sir.

16:23

You'll be dropped immediately. Do you understand that heck? He doesn't know what the heck he's doing. All right So we're the ones who are going to choose who's going to represent

16:30

Islam and I talked to him about this I said dude, what are you doing? You just sit up there and you just let people use you as a punching bag

16:35

Where you won't defend the Quran and you've seen that now in two debates and you're telling me he's such a intelligent guy

16:41

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I know sir another you are really making yourself look ridiculous here because not people

16:49

People listening to this who have listened to Shabir Ali Are are really wondering right now.

16:56

What what color is the sky in your world? Okay, let me tell you what color it is

17:01

Okay For example inside the New Testament debate you attacked the Quran and said that basically that that Usman Burned the codices.

17:09

We don't even know what the original Quran looks like. He doesn't even refute that He did that in both debates inside and the one which he just recently had with him on the cross

17:17

It took someone from the audience to defend the Quran and then he's like, oh, yeah. Well, you know actually the person in the audience recognized the

17:27

Citation of sahih al -bukhari and recognized that the specific terminology that I used was taken directly from a citation of sahih al -bukhari

17:37

And you are certainly aware of that Shall I refute the issue about what you're saying that the all the codices of the

17:43

Quran was burnt by Usman Therefore we know what the Quran excuse me I never actually said that what

17:49

I said to those who have listened to the debate and who have read sahih al -bukhari Is exactly what the text says and that is that there was a group of people chosen by Usman To gather from a number of different sources from palm leaves from the memories of the

18:07

Quran from the the shoulder blades of camels And various smooth stones and things like that These were the sources that sahih al -bukhari itself lists that were used by these group of men in Collating the

18:23

Quran is that a is that yes, is that true? Okay. Well, let me now address this issue, but is that true?

18:29

Well, can I explain it's a simple question? Is that true? Is that what sahih al -bukhari says?

18:36

Well, yes, I know there's more to it than what you just stated, but it did state that right and I please respond

18:42

James Thank you. Okay. First of all, the Quran was preserved by actually a very special Miracle, and this is the miracle of Hafiz in a sense that it is possible for a person to memorize the entire

18:56

Quran from A to Z and Basically lodged the entire book on their head So that was also another medium which is how the

19:04

Quran was stored not just on palm leaves or far You know the other issues which you are mentioning now the thing which you have missed here.

19:12

Excuse me. Excuse me. Wait a minute Another yes, I did you're calling my program and you you just wandered off from what

19:19

I just said Yes, I did mention the quota. Did I not are those not the reciters of the Quran?

19:24

Can I please say something here? Let me just now Let me show you why the whole issue about when you're bringing up what's mine why that's a nonsensical argument

19:31

Okay, because at the time of whatever when what's mine did what he did the entire society had the

19:38

Quran in their possession Really? Yes. Is that what al -bukhari says? Yes, absolutely So when al -bukhari says that certain certain ayah were found in the memory of only one person he was lying

19:47

Okay Can I first let me respond to the issue about what's mine burning the text and then I will address the hadith which you just stated

19:54

So just let me do one at a time over here. Okay? Okay. So going back to the hadith about about what's mine

20:00

It is impossible for what's mine to change a Quran when the entire society had it because if you read in Bukhari You you will see that as soon as the

20:09

Quran ayat was revealed It was given to the vast majority of the people the good the bad the ugly

20:15

They all had this Quran with them. So when it's in the hands of the people one person can't change that book so when you come in your debate and you say oh some or insinuate whether you

20:26

Articulated it or in exactly this way or not Probably now but this is what you insinuated that the

20:31

Quran was changed by utman and therefore we don't know what the Quran looked like before it's mine is a bogus argument

20:38

Okay, so that's what I wanted to correct you on. Okay. Well, first of all, you obviously do not even understand the presentation

20:45

I've made have you read my CRI articles on this subject? Have you read my articles on this subject in the

20:54

CRI journal? No, I heard your debate Okay, actually, I've not debated this subject What you mentioned with with Shabir Ali who wouldn't defend it.

21:02

So so a question in passing Okay, so you haven't read the articles. You don't know what I said. All right Let me see if I can explain here first of all what

21:11

I said was that when you have a revision such as you have in this context that involves the destruction of the preceding material then from a textual critical perspective if that destruction was

21:24

Completely successful and there is question as to whether it was or even if it took place that particular point in time

21:29

But even if it was successful at that particular point in time what that does it freezes the text at that point?

21:35

But it precludes the ability to go beyond that point to be able to examine the reality and the perfection of that particular

21:42

Collation I was speaking from textual critical grounds there at that point and I think many people especially

21:48

Islamic scholars would recognize that that is the case secondly you have asserted but have not demonstrated

21:55

The idea that everyone in the society had memorized the entirety of the

22:00

Quran There is absolutely no basis for this whatsoever And in fact Sahih al -Bukhari contradicts this because the reason for the collation is the differences in the recitations

22:10

Taking place amongst the Muslims They do not want to be like the Christians and Jews and have differences over their text and this leads then to the collation

22:18

And they were concerned because the death of the Qura in the battle that had just taken place many of them had passed away

22:24

And so they recognized man if we lose any more of these folks we might lose portions of the

22:29

Quran So obviously it was not the concept found in Sahih al -Bukhari that everyone in the society possessed the entirety of the

22:37

Quran Well, I think you've thrown a lot of points at me. So let me just tackle one at a time over here

22:42

Okay, first of all what I said that they had possession of the Quran There are some people who memorize the entire

22:49

Quran from A to Z There are some people who had maybe 50 % lodged in their head or at least to a certain amount

22:54

So I didn't say that everybody had memorized the Quran So I think you're attacking a straw man over there

22:59

But the situation is this which you cannot refute and no one's gonna it's impossible for anybody to change a book

23:07

When the society of people have that and when you look in Bukhari You will see so many examples of even the fukara the poor people

23:16

Memorizing learning and teaching the Quran to others. So in that situation, no, you can't change the

23:22

Quran. Okay, thanks. First of all It's interesting to me that as I sit here looking at Sahih al -Bukhari

23:28

Umar has come to me and said casualties were heavy among the Qura of the Quran on the day of the Battle of Yalmama and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the

23:38

Qura on other battlefields Whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost was

23:44

Abu Bakr just not as smart as you neither Well, first of all Abu Bakr is not contradicting anything what

23:51

I'm saying He's actually confirming exactly what I'm saying that this is that this is a time when the

23:57

Quran was in the hands of the people It was never restricted to just a small group of people now

24:02

The thing about Abu Bakr and people like that when they took this action, they were being proactive They didn't take this action when the problem is, you know spiraled out of control and all of a sudden they're having a shortage

24:14

That's your interpretation that you're imposing on the text. Okay, they never reached to that level.

24:20

They are not incompetent People so let me ask you. Well, let me finish my point here James So what they're saying is before this becomes a problem, okay

24:29

Well, all of a sudden we don't have enough enough hafiz or hufaz inside this inside the

24:34

Muslim world Let's just take these preventive measures because of course, they're the leaders of society.

24:39

So no, we've never had a Hafiz shortage if you will So surah 9 128 through 129 which was found in the memory of only one person

24:50

Can you explain how that fits with your Theory that the

24:55

Quran was the possession of all people. Sure. I'll go to that hadith in just a second But just to summarize what what what my contention was here

25:04

What I've shown you is that it is impossible for Uthman to quote change the Quran or tamper with it

25:11

Now whether you were intentionally trying to hint at that. I don't know No, I went where have

25:16

I ever where have I ever even suggested okay that Uthman edited The material that was there.

25:22

My question has always been on the viability of the collection methodology

25:27

The fact that you have certain surah Certain ayah that are found in the memory of only one person even after the initial collation day later

25:37

They later find another that was in the memory of only one person that had been forgotten

25:43

That's exactly I'll read it if you need me to and then I have another question if so I think

25:49

I heard you say that a book could never be changed When it's in the possession of all the people or something like that Yeah, so why would you say the

25:59

New Testament's been changed when it clearly was in the possession of all the New Testament people? Let me go to the hadith what you're quoting about, you know, where was in the possession of one person

26:07

Then I'll get to the New Testament. Okay, cuz that's actually we're supposed to be debating New Testament, which is on the 21st

26:12

Okay, but now the hadith which you're referring to it again. You are imposing your understanding and on this text first of all the people who

26:20

I think was they'd who he sent to go and you know Verify this with each and every verse with other with another person, but he didn't go to the common people

26:30

That was not the minhage the methodology of the people of that of that time

26:35

They would only go to the scholars and the people of knowledge and that was only in his locality

26:41

He never left his locality Okay, so what you're imposing on a text is that nobody inside the

26:47

Islamic world knew of this verse, which is not true It didn't state that if it if this was a situation then it would clearly

26:55

Explicitly say that so that's your own interpretation. You're imposing on the time So I started looking for the Quran and collecting it from what was written on palm stalks thin white stones and also from the men

27:04

Who knew it by heart till I found the last versus rot ataba repentance with I because I'm a al -ansari

27:10

And I did not find it with anybody other than him and that verse is and then it is quoted verily

27:16

That's common to you a pause an apostle Muhammad from amongst yourselves It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty till the end of surat bar.

27:23

Ah 9 128 through 129 then the complete manuscripts copy of the Quran remained with Abu Bakr till he died then with Umar till the end of his life and then with Hafsa the daughter of Umar and then it goes on and Talks about what happens when there is a difference amongst people who were quoting the

27:46

Quran differently Hudaifah was afraid of there the people shaman Iraq differences in the recitation of the

27:53

Quran So he said with one Oh chief of the believers save this nation Before they differ about the book the

28:00

Quran as Jews and Christians did before so there was a concern Why would there be a concern if there was not differences already?

28:10

Existence and so Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying send us the manuscripts of the Quran So we may compile the chronic materials and perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you

28:18

Hafsa sent it to Uthman Uthman then ordered Zayed bin Thabit Abdullah bin Aziz Iber Sayyid bin

28:25

Alas and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies

28:30

Uthman said to the three Quraish you men in case you disagree with Zayed bin Thabit on any point in the Quran then write it

28:36

In the dialect of Quraish the Quran was revealed in their tongue They did so and when they had written many copies Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa Uthman sent to every

28:45

Muslim province one Copy of what they had copied and or that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies be burnt

28:56

Sayyid bin Thabit added a verse From Surat Azab was missed by me when we copied the

29:02

Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle Reciting it. So we searched for it.

29:07

We searched for it and found it with Kazemi bin Thabit Al Ansari The verse was among the believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.

29:16

That would be Surah 33 ayah 23 is that one so that one had been missed

29:23

Even in the preceding collation of the Quranic Materials and the assertion that I have made from the beginning is not that Uthman was sitting around going

29:33

Let's see. What can we change here? Or what can I take out or put in or anything else?

29:39

My assertion has been that from a textual critical perspective the destruction of the preceding materials used to create the collation itself is the exact Opposite concept that we have in the

29:51

New Testament where Christians are always looking for earlier and earlier Manuscripts and that therefore if he was successful and I think there's reason to believe that he was not but if he was successful If there was an

30:03

Uthmanic revision that took place around 653 AD that that would preclude the kind of textual critical

30:13

Research that New Testament scholars are so excited about in finding earlier and earlier papyri manuscripts it would freeze the text at that point and in essence all you could do would be to trace it back to Uthman and Not to a period before Uthman and if my understanding is correct, the last of the

30:32

Apostles was Muhammad not Uthman Yes That's okay,

30:38

I think everybody else heard it So what about the New Testament since you had said that's

30:44

That's a a book that is in the possession of the people cannot possibly be changed Books such as the

30:51

Gospel of John the earliest papyri manuscript we have is from around 125 AD. It's called p52 Which interesting enough from John chapter 18, which is just a little bit after John 14 and 16 where many people try to say

31:03

The original reading was not paracletus pericluptus and was a prophecy of Muhammad How then could that kind of Change be made in the

31:13

New Testament if you are being consistent in the assertions you made about the Quran Okay Well, you know you bombarded me with a lot of stuff on on the

31:21

Quran and I think there's something I got to respond to At least some of that. I just read I just read al -bukhari didn't

31:26

I know well, can I please respond to that? Well, if you want to respond al -bukhari, but don't blame me for bombarding you

31:32

I'm just letting the listening audience is not read al -bukhari nother Let me just respond to that so that you know, we're all as clear as mud on what is being stated over there

31:41

Okay, this thing that there was that there was the verse of the Quran was limited to only one person inside the entire

31:48

Islamic world We don't have any evidence for that. Okay, when the scribe was searching He didn't he didn't even leave his locality and he never said that this is only with one person

31:58

Inside the entire Islamic world once again You are imposing that upon the text and that contradicts other hadith which states very clearly that there were many

32:07

Hufadh there are many hafiz meaning people who has memorized the Quran from the beginning to the end

32:13

Okay, where did the hadith ever say that those individuals were involved in the actual production of Uthman's text?

32:19

Okay, let me just go back to the thing about the scribe Okay and So I'm trying to tell you that to sit and say that there was one verse of Quran that was limited to all actually two

32:29

People they'd and the other person that's not true. Okay, there's no evidence for that. No, sir, sir What I said was no,

32:35

I'm not going to let you misrepresent me sir what I said was that the hadith said that for the

32:41

Production of Uthman's copy of the Quran which became the standard There was only one person if you want to say other people knew that verse fine say that but that's irrelevant

32:54

To the production of Uthman's revision Okay, so you see but here is a problem now then talking about Uthman's revision talking about you know

33:02

They just finding that one verse none of this Challenges the integrity of the

33:08

Quran. Okay, this is all irrelevant What we're seeing here is that this is all irrelevant information

33:13

You're giving me now. I thought you were going to actually challenge the authenticity of the cross. It's all irrelevant let me let me just make sure everybody in the listening audience knows the

33:22

Key hadith section in the most Respected hadith collection sahih al -bukhari the

33:30

Primary one that deals with the actual collation of the text of the Quran was just said to be irrelevant

33:38

I just want to make sure everybody caught that because sometimes you might not Hear those things. I just wanna make sure everyone catches that I explained what

33:47

I was trying to say very clearly It's irrelevant to the issue of trying to say or trying to prove that the

33:54

Quran is corrupt This material that you're quoting doesn't prove a squat if someone wants to challenge the integrity of the

34:01

Quran That's what I was trying to refer to. Of course, we respect these hadiths and of course Bukhari is a very reliable source

34:07

So anyways having said that you know It's very like I said once the book is in the hands of the vast majority of people and this is and the society has

34:16

Said one person can change it. It's impossible change now when it comes to the New Testament, which

34:21

I think is now what you are your second question was Well, when did we ever have the situation when that when this

34:28

New Testament was in the hands of the society of people? And they had it.

34:34

It was maybe three to four hundred years after Jesus really? Yeah Wow, so all of those eyewitnesses and the

34:40

Apostles they just sat around on their hands They never preached about Jesus. They never traveled all over the world you

34:48

Paul never actually made it to Ephesus and and Luke never went to Rome and All these far -flung places where eyewitnesses as late as the time of John were preaching and teaching the message of Christ They didn't have anything until three or four hundred years later.

35:03

Is that the idea? Okay, we'll see everything which you quoted You were restricting the New Testament in the minority of just one or two people

35:11

But the question which you raised to me is when the society meaning thousands upon thousands of people

35:16

Have the New Testament the 27 books of the New Testament under why does it have to be the 27 books in Utah? Okay.

35:22

Well, let me now let me just you know, finish my point here That's when I say no, you cannot corrupt the

35:28

New Testament once it has reached this stage. Okay. Now if you're saying, okay Well, what about 26 books or what about?

35:35

Okay, not not neither. What what is what is contained in in manuscript? P46 I don't know.

35:42

I'd have to look it up. Okay, and many manuscript p46 when you look through for example

35:48

Paul's epistles you find that p46 is a collection of Paul's epistles

35:53

Do you have any idea when when that existed when it was written? It's around around the year 200 and Already Paul's epistles have been collected into a a single

36:07

Collection of Separate books put together in one book of the writings of Paul the

36:15

Apostle. This is around 200 and so these books exist first of all in each of the places where his epistles were sent to so you'd have

36:24

Ephesus and you have Thessalonica and Philippi and in places like that And so they're they're far -flung and then they are brought together into one collection

36:34

Could you give us an idea of how? Something like that could have been

36:41

Corrupted that's consistent with the arguments. You've already used of people allegedly having memorized all of the

36:47

Quran Didn't people memorize things before the 7th century in Arabia didn't didn't other societies also memorize things

36:55

Absolutely people memorize things but what you have to understand when we talk about the memorization of the

37:00

Quran This what I told you is a special miracle or phenomenon, which is just unique to the

37:05

Quran in the sense that it is Easy for a person to memorize this book so much

37:12

So to the point that even in today's time you have like seven eight -year -old kids who have memorized the entire

37:18

Quran from A to Z So something very special about this book and that's why you cannot compare it with other memorizations of other texts and stuff like that, so the so the ease of the ability to memorize the

37:33

Quran is why it couldn't be changed but the the

37:39

New Testament could be because it's not as easy to memorize Did people take the New Testament from its inception?

37:46

Memorize every single word and then spread this knowledge among hundreds upon hundreds of people at its in fact, you know

37:51

It's very interesting. It's very interesting neither that some a lot of people were willing to die

37:58

Rather than give up their scriptures for about 270 years under Roman rule very different than the

38:08

Quran where no one had to die under Islamic rule for the Quran because it was under the control of the leaders of the the

38:17

Empire itself the Caliphate and so Interestingly enough. I would think people who were willing to actually give their lives

38:24

For those texts would probably know what those texts actually contained Yeah, I think they would but very interesting that that the reason

38:34

That the that the people possessing the Quran means it could not have been changed It's different for the

38:40

Christians because of a miracle about how much easier the Quran is to memorize. Okay?

38:46

Well, that's that's a thing Yeah, you see that the reason why I called on this show is because as you can see we just had pretty much what a 20 -30 minute debate on the

38:56

Quran and what I'm saying is if you're going to challenge a crown This is exactly what's going to happen We're of course,

39:01

I'm gonna you know, we're going to debate on this issue And that's that's the reason why I was trying to explain to you Let's try to break it up into two different debates of do you understand where I was trying to go with this?

39:10

Well, I understand that in essence what you want to do on the 21st

39:17

Is to say that I can't mention the

39:22

Quran and once again if your argumentation in regards to your allegations of the corruption of the

39:31

New Testament Do not involve arguments that include a double standard then there is no reason to even mention the

39:41

Quran That's all there is to it. That's not a problem And I already told you that up the whole issue about you know, textual corruption, which is actually

39:50

Bart Ehrman's game I'm not going to raise that Okay And I'm gonna raise other issues when it comes for this debate.

39:58

So, okay I think you know, I think we see I do I took us about 40 minutes of banging heads But I think we've actually come to a conclusion on something here all righty, sir, so I Imagine David was probably listening or will be listening.

40:14

So we'll we'll we'll just go from there. But thank you for your call today All right. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

40:20

I Guess we missed the break It's been a bit of a different day, hasn't it rich Oh Okay, well, you know

40:40

You never know what's under those blinking lights when you when you turn on the phones and say call us

40:46

You never know what's gonna be there Wow, okay All right I don't even

40:55

I don't know. There's yeah, John John and Ogden.

41:01

Hey, why don't we just completely strip the gears out of the transmission here and Forget about the clutch and let's talk with John and Ogden about Mormon liturgy

41:12

Hey, John Do you have any idea what you're just listening to I tried to catch most of it

41:23

I just got out of a long day of school. So I'm kind of What can we do for you to take

41:30

John Somewhat in light of the recent death of Gordon B Hinckley I'm a can

41:39

I mention can I mention to folks? they may not even be aware of this Gordon B Hinckley prophet the Mormon Church passed away a couple days ago and the next

41:48

Allegedly supposed to be I mean they like to keep y 'all guessing but Monson is supposed to be the next prophet.

41:54

I'm not sure if he's been When that takes place stuff like that, but just so people know what you're referring to yes, go ahead sir

42:00

Well, I'm I'm a student at Weber State University up here And this is my last semester and they have the

42:06

LDS Institute of Religion next to every campus not here so I thought I'd take one of their free classes and it's a class on acts revelation and I thought a

42:15

New Testament class would be interesting just to see how they even read it. No kidding. Yeah Well now are you not a native

42:22

Utah in? Since I was 14 I've been living here.

42:27

Okay, and let's attend some odd years ago. Mm -hmm, but But now

42:33

I Let's see. I noticed a lot a lot of the class so far has been Everything they point out in the

42:40

New Testament so far has been related to church structure and church offices and whatnot and a lot of it's just Avoiding any theological matters,

42:48

I guess So I wanted to point out the second part of Acts chapter 1 speaks of the replacing of Judas essentially and when they read this they kind of Took it as kind of a type text for how to replace

43:04

An apostle or someone who has passed away and I guess even the president.

43:10

Yes. Yes. I guess I just want to clarify What's going on kind of in this passage, is it just even relevant only to Judas?

43:19

Yes, I think it is for a couple reasons first of all it specifically makes a reference to the fact that an

43:25

Apostle has to be one who was there from the beginning was an eyewitness the ministry of Jesus and You never see this being repeated again my understanding of the text to be honest with you

43:34

I know many people don't view it this way, but I do not believe Matthias was was the 12th apostle

43:42

I believe Paul was and casting of lots is is Sounds to me more like a

43:50

Peter's idea of keeping the club together than it is God's idea of who his man was for that job and so I I don't even look at that as as an example of anything more than Primitive idea of we need to keep this group together, but that's not

44:07

God's idea. He splits him up The whole first nine chapters is how God in essence chases the

44:12

Christians out of Jerusalem, and they start to spread across the world so I don't

44:17

I don't see that as as providing any kind of paradigm for really anything at all And there's no certainly the the early church does not pick up on that or continue to utilize that in any meaningful

44:30

Fashion down the road, but I would comment. It is fascinating to me. I have one tiny little paperback

44:37

Work in my library of notes on the book of Romans from a Mormon I have

44:43

I do not believe we will ever see a meaningful scholarly commentary in the book of Romans from a from a

44:49

Mormon because they can't enter into the milieu of the monotheistic religion that was

44:56

Paul's And engage the text in any meaningful fashion doesn't mean Mormons can't learn Greek and everything they can

45:03

But the New Testament is so far removed from Joseph Smith and his theology that this is this is the the

45:10

Pressure that we're seeing at BYU and other higher institutions of learning these days is these people come in from?

45:18

from getting their PhDs someplace else and they're stretched between You know you go read

45:24

Joseph Smith and his comments about the Bible And they're just so far removed from anything that could be relevant to the truth

45:33

That's trying to do meaningful exegesis of scholarships it's just not possible for a polytheist to do that with the

45:39

New Testament and I don't know what's gonna happen to Mormonism. You may you know you may be up there now

45:45

You're up in a more conservative. Where's where's we were state located again. We're Approximately 30 some odd miles north of like okay.

45:54

Yeah You can see what's going on up there I mean you're young enough that you can't go back to the 80s and have a comparison at that point

46:02

But I can and let me tell you something this is not your your grandfather's

46:08

Mormonism anymore and it's a it's fascinating to see the old existing right next to the new and and Mormonism has really seemed to loss have lost its direction.

46:20

I don't know if months and at 80 Can can reverse that or if you would even have the support within the hierarchy to do that.

46:28

I don't know I do not know where Mormonism is gonna end up But it is fascinating to observe it.

46:33

No question about it Yeah, sure real quick, okay the booklet that goes along with this actually has a story about a couple of missionaries asking somebody

46:46

Saying something about the Apostles being necessary today in the in the minister. They were talking to you responded saying that Pretty much exactly that that the

46:54

Apostle had to be a witness of all things pertaining to the mission and resurrection of the Lord And the

47:01

I guess fake presidents or whatnot tells him to go back and ask him where the Apostle Paul gained his witness to those things

47:08

Yeah, it's called the roads Damascus, you know in essence by I Guess how did he gain testimony sufficient to be an

47:16

Apostle and how does he know that all who are today Apostles are not likewise? Receivers of that witness, right, right.

47:23

Yeah. Well, yeah, that's exactly what I've heard I've had Mormons. Tell me honestly that every single Apostle has had a physical vision of Jesus Yes Yeah, yeah, that's what

47:35

I've been told so that's pretty consistent All righty, John All right.

47:40

Well, I appreciate that. Okay. Thank you for calling. God bless him. Bye. Bye. All right Let's continue on to New Jersey.

47:46

Talk with David. Hi David You there? Yes, sir. Okay. I want to switch things back to Islam if I can do that And and take it in a different direction

47:58

But I say this with all somberness and sobriety because it's a very serious topic

48:04

But I mean you as an elder and as someone who gives pastoral advice How would you advise?

48:11

Christians to deal with the militant threat of Islam not just the apologetics not all that but it almost seems like an affront to The persecution that's going on against Christians and other religious minorities as well to sometimes even engage

48:30

In this because in Muslim lands this can't be done. That's right. And so I'm just thinking like it

48:38

When it comes to dealing with Muslims, like where is the line where you would say you shouldn't do that, you know

48:43

It's like something like what happened in in Bosnia Serbia Is that going too far and why and is there too far when you're dealing with an enemy that will basically stop at nothing

48:56

Until there is just Dar al -Islam, you know the Dar al -Islam versus Dar al -Habd

49:03

The you know, one of the reasons, you know, I would much rather engage individuals like Yasir Qadhi or Hamza Yusuf or Shabir Ali Then and people like Nader Ahmed mainly because there's just a massive difference between them and their approach

49:27

Their knowledge of background materials their their ability to reason and to be consistent but the reason that I do is because it is that kind of argumentation that our

49:40

Persecuted brothers and sisters in other lands are experiencing day in and day out as their beliefs are mocked and attacked by the

49:48

Muslim majorities and so to provide responses to them and to demonstrate the inconsistencies and to demonstrate the consistency of the

49:56

Christian faith over against that is useful to those people who live in Iraq in Syria in Egypt in Saudi Arabia and Iran and places like that and It is not tasteful to me in any way shape or form but honestly,

50:15

I will Continue to do it because I know that I do have persecuted brothers and sisters and those people are facing individuals who are using that kind of argumentation and if I can give them any kind of encouragement or any kind of example of In the face of that kind of irrationality how to respond to it

50:34

I will I will do so because I I do regularly pray for our brothers and sisters in other lands who are experiencing a

50:43

Persecution at the hands of Muslims and I do believe it's apologetically relevant to point out that we can only have this kind of conversation outside of the

50:54

Dar al -islam outside of those outside of where sharia law has been Established and I think it is.

51:00

Yeah, go ahead well And where I was going with that is more than along the lines of it seems to me and I'm not in any way taking away

51:06

What you're doing because it's very much needed But I'm saying there seems to be a point and I say this

51:12

Not crass, but just as blunt as I can to get the point across But there seems a point to end up to the end of debate and pick up a gun now

51:19

I'm not saying that's your job. No, I don't I don't think so. I I really don't I I'm just thinking like what you posted on, you know your blog where you had

51:28

Mr. Was it Shimon? Yes the man that just called and he said that there's at the end he closed and the people who can go there and watch it said

51:37

That it's not and he listed a couple things that this is not what will stop this long But it will be the message of Jesus Christ, right and I would say

51:44

I agree but in Part, I mean it seems to me this from a sociological cultural perspective the reason why there is a

51:52

Christianity and people know about it and not the raster ism is because Christianity at one point took up the sword to defend.

52:00

No, I don't believe so. No, I don't believe no I don't believe so. I know that historically. I know that hers historically

52:06

David there has been Those nations that called themselves

52:11

Christian But I I do not believe that you're

52:16

I think what you're doing here is you're confusing the The way that Christians are to respond to attacks upon their faith and the way that a nation is to respond to attacks

52:28

Upon its national identity. I think there is an appropriate fashion whereby a nation can defend itself against Enemies both foreign and domestic and what would that be?

52:42

That's what I'm asking you I mean, I know that's not but but I'm saying but see I don't believe in the concept of a quote -unquote

52:48

Christian nation either But what I'm saying is whether it be on a nationalistic level or whether it be

52:55

Christians on their own or in some kind of I guess you'd say militia or whatever, but some type of armed group

53:00

Well be I guess you could say an appropriate response even by if you would take, you know people that aren't even

53:08

Christians, you know if you're talking about like a secular nation, like, you know, the US military and It's comprised of people who are

53:15

Christian, but those who also aren't was that's the war is too far To go is if there's such a thing.

53:23

Well, I do not want any nation's military thinking that its job is the promulgation expanse and defense of The gospel the gospel is not defended by those means

53:39

The weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh We change hearts. We don't carry guns for that now.

53:47

I believe that there's two different realms here I will protect myself and my family against evil men who would seek to attack them and to hurt them and If a if a

53:57

Christian believes that they can serve in the military to defend their nation More power to them and I think that that's a biblical position to take because Jesus spoke to John the

54:10

Baptist spoke to those who were in the military and he did not tell him to get out of the military I do not believe that you can really defend the concept of pacifism from the

54:20

New Testament the way it's been taken by some people but there is a I think a very firm line that has to be drawn between the appropriate existence of military and defense of a nation and then likewise my duties as a husband and a father to protect my wife and my children and my family and myself against evil men who would seek to attack and kill me and Then the idea of Christians gathering together and utilization of weapons to somehow engage in some sort of Military effort to Attack a particular religious group that wants to attack us or something like that.

55:00

That's that's a completely different I would agree with you but in some areas that that's not possible

55:06

I mean take like the situation in parts of Africa where There's no one coming to the rescue the people that being attacked are predominantly

55:13

Christian So it would naturally be Christians or maybe some group along with Christians that come together but they say hey, you know, we can either get squashed out of existence or we can go on a proactive preemptive strike

55:27

And that seems to me to be biblically acceptable. Well, I what what was Jesus's Statement to the

55:34

Christians who would find themselves in the environs of Jerusalem when God's judgment came upon that city

55:42

Do you remember That is what

55:48

Jesus said to the believers in Jerusalem He did not say band together and fight the Romans and I you know

55:54

I I do hear what you're saying and I I have and I there's a part of me that that says yeah

56:00

Go get him, but there's also a part of me. It goes. Wait a minute fundamentally the the vindication of The Christian people who are being slaughtered by Muslims in Africa today is an eternal vindication and That is difficult sometimes for us to To accept but the reality is that the persecution of Christians has been going on all the way through the history of the church

56:26

The the faces the persecutors and their purposes change But that persecution has been going on and it is the fact that those individuals

56:37

Refused to In essence take up arms when people were were saying deny

56:46

Christ That ended up changing every society that that did persecute them eventually

56:54

And there was all those nations and all those peoples have passed when you go into the history.

56:59

They've all passed in the face this earth Anybody who has ever done that any of those nations in in ancient history have been destroyed and you're that are eventually conquered by People who ceased that persecution or even adopted a generally

57:13

Christian outlook on the world I don't have easy answers for these things, but I can tell you that The ak -47 the m16 is not is not the answer but bold Christians who know their faith and The the blessing of the

57:30

Holy Spirit of God and changing the hearts and minds of those Muslims who are giving vent to those very human and evil

57:40

Intentions of promoting their religion through external means That is really the only weapon of mass instruction in that's going to bring peace to the

57:51

Middle East. I think Is is the missionary efforts of changing hearts and minds and I understand the the impatience that can exist when we see unjust persecution

58:05

But that is the reality of the situation we face and we have to trust that God has a purpose in it

58:11

David Thank you very much for your patience and your phone call Dan. Sorry We weren't able to get to you today, but it was certainly without a doubt one of the most unusual dividing lines we have ever done and but that's what happens when you open the phone lines and I'm gonna tell you something.

58:28

There's almost no place. You can go on the internet to hear stuff like you here Thanks for listening folks.

58:35

Who knows what will be the next time but be there or you'll miss it. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:41

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at p .o

59:47

Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:54

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks