Adult Sunday School: Members' Meetings are Sacred Gatherings

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Lesson: Members' Meetings are Sacred Gatherings Date: Nov. 24, 2024 Teacher: Pastor Conley Owens

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Dear Heavenly Father, I thank you for this morning. I pray that you would bless our time Considering the nature of your church and what your word says about it in Jesus name.
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Amen All right today we're gonna teach Sunday school or I'm gonna teach Sunday school that I've wanted to teach for a very long time
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I've wanted to collect a bunch of things about members meetings and how People should approach members meetings, and I've never gotten around to this, but finally
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I have so here is Let me go ahead and help pass this out.
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Actually if I can get a kid to help here. Yeah, I'll take one
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All right. So like I said, I've wanted to teach us for a long time we do get questions occasionally about about what is appropriate at members meetings, and so Yeah, let's go through some of this.
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So first of all a Couple of weeks ago. I did go through the significance of members meetings the
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Theological Context the authority of the congregation to make judgments about the nature of Christ's body
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So just to go through some of these again, but specifically those texts that show that members meetings are sacred gatherings.
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Okay, they are They are Special times where the authority of Christ is specifically a lot of people look at members meetings
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Typically, they're often called business meetings, right because they're they're where the you know, the club or whatever does business so Nothing wrong with calling them business meetings because business does get done
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But when people hear business a lot of times they think something mundane something earthly something not heavenly
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Right, but but members meetings are not mundane. They are They are special times
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Matthew 18 20 says for where two or three are gathered in my name there. Am I among them?
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Okay, so the special presence of God Dwells when his people are gathered and remember in context in Matthew 18, this is talking about excommunication
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So it's not talking about just a workplace prayer meeting or anything like that. It's talking about It's talking about Christ's authoritative presence so that his church can make
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Judgments and declarations about his body Matthew 28 19 through 20 similar thing go therefore make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the
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Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and behold.
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I am with you always to the end of the age So when
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Jesus says that he is with his disciples always and specifically in the context of them
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Baptizing this is them adding to the church. So Matthew 18 was about them authoritatively removing from the church
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Matthew 28 is about them authoritatively adding to the church. And so Christ's presence is there
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To give them that authority This is this is something special that happens when the people are gathered and we see this again in first Corinthians 5 once again speaking of excommunication
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Making judgments about Christ's body when you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present with the power of our
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Lord Jesus You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that a spirit may be saved in the day of the
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Lord Okay, so all of that Has implications for how we think about members meetings
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They're not Mundane considerations are not mundane times they are
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Times when the Spirit of Christ is with us in a special way that we might make authoritative judgments if we treat worship as a special time when
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Christ's presence is with us and the angels are present with us as it says in Hebrews 12 and That dictates that the certain kind of reverence ought to be observed, etc
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All that that's true in worship is also true in members meetings okay, the presence of Christ is there to give us power to make judgments and that is a
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That demands some kind of reverence it demands a list of four things here humility gratitude zeal responsibility
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You know humility in that this is a This is a very serious undertaking that has been given to God's people who do not deserve the
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Do not deserve the status that we have to be able to make these judgments on Christ's behalf
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It should be approached Recognizing it is an incredible responsibility that demands us a humility.
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We should approach it with gratitude a lot of people look at Members meetings as being something that is a
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Chore, right? It should not be looked at as a chore, but something that it's an incredible privilege to be part of Requires zeal from us if we are making judgments about Christ's body.
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That is something that is Those pronouncements have significant Meaning, you know, whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven
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Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven these are things that Christ cares very much about we should therefore care very much about them and responsibility, so not just a responsibility to Not just the weight in the meeting itself
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Where you feel that it's on your shoulders to make the right judgments But even before the meeting knowing that this is a this is a regular task that you will be called on that will be required of you as a member that you should
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Yeah exercise that responsibility to be ready to make judgments as needed
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Matthew 16 19 says I'll give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatever you
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Find on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven The keys of The kingdom are what are being exercised in members meetings is a incredible privilege
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It's an incredible responsibility to wield those keys Not everyone gets to do it, but if you are gathered together with the body you have the capacity to do that Okay, so all of this is just setting up Why why there would be?
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special considerations about members meeting etiquette You know, you don't of course any kind of situation requires etiquette, but you don't necessarily think of every kind of gathering every kind of group as Requiring some sort of serious reverence and consideration, but member meet members meetings do
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Just as much as as worship meetings Because the presence of Christ is with us and I'll make one more connection to worship when we gather for the
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Lord's Supper Okay, that's something that we have to be gathered together to do because it declares the unity of the body we have
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Christ's presence to Declare who it is that is part of the body. Okay, the
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Lord's Supper is not something you can do over zoom the Lord's Supper is not something you can do in a small group apart from the rest of the body and And why is that it is because it is only in that context that you have
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Christ authoritative presence To declare who belongs and this is this is exactly what's happening in a members meeting, right?
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So These things are not so distinct. It's not oh this one's very serious and solemn and religious and this one's very mundane and ordinary
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Okay, they're both they're both serious sacred gatherings All right
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Okay, so what does this imply we're gonna break this up into several sections one is just going to be in general then
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Beforehand at the very end. We'll talk about after the meeting talk about arriving at the meeting listening speaking and voting
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Okay, so let's see. Let's see itinerary here First first in general is to Good to know the
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Constitution of the church if you go to sbrbc .org slash Constitution That information is there now
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It's not as important to know the Constitution as it is to know the Word of God But it can be helpful in members meetings if you know how they are supposed to be run a lot of times
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People ask questions that will indicate they don't necessarily Understand how it's supposed to be run and it can make everything more orderly and smooth if you if you do understand these things
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Secondly if we're going to be making judgments together about Christ's body about What the church is and who the church is it is important to know the
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Word of God clearly so that you can make those judgments I've noticed that when
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I Because I tend to lead the members meetings when I lead the members meetings a lot of times
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I make the mistake of assuming more shared context and the Word of God Than I should right and so that's a that's a fault on me
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But it's also a fault on others to sometimes right like it's fault on me and that I'm as a teacher
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I'm not picking up on the things. I need to be picking up on on what people need to hear Right and as a congregation
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The fault is in not being ready with the Word of God to have the shared context that we all need
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Right, so it's important to know the Word of God In order that we have as a body a shared context from which we're making these decisions.
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You could imagine that if let's say we merge with another church, right we merge with an
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Armenian Church or I don't know just imagine some church of a very different tradition and then we got together and we and we tried making judgments on things whether or not it be, you know, adopting a theological statement or removing a member over some case of sin
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If we don't have a shared understanding of the Word of God because we're Because we're coming from different theological traditions.
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It's going to be very difficult to arrive at the same judgments now imagine you do come from the same theological tradition, but Some are very heavily invested in understanding the
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Word of God. Well, and others are less So once again, I mean you're going to you're going to find difficulty
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Coming to agreement if there's not shared understandings of what the
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Word says now part of the Part of the beautiful thing about members meetings is that it does it kind of it's a forcing function on that, right?
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it requires that we that we Bring up and call to mind
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Matters of the Word of God that that ought to be considered. And so On one hand you want unity in and an under shared understanding of the
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Word of God so that you can Make those judgments together on the other hand having to make those judgments together push us toward Having a shared understanding of the
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Word of God. So that's it's very beneficial Next is to be reconciled to one another
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Romans 12 18 says if possible so far as it depends on you live peaceably with all
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If there are ever disagreements about things in the church because there really is nothing more important than matters of church life
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When there are disagreements there is ample room to Ample room for offense
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Because they are such important matters and that's on one hand. That's very reasonable that You know if you're going to take offense about anything you would think it would be, you know, the most important things so if that's the case if you know unity is at stake and there's a lot of opportunity for offense that means that It's far better to come into members meetings already being
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Unified with one another so that if anything arises that causes offense, etc it's not getting added to a backlog of Concerns or it's not getting added to a backlog of offenses that need to be dealt with But rather that it can be dealt with freshly so this is this is something that's just Important to keep it's important to keep short accounts with people so that in any kind of difficult circumstance
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You're ready for that rather than being being surprised and having a backlog of things to deal with with others
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So that'll make sense any questions on the in general section here. Okay All right.
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Let's go on to beforehand up beforehand when the agendas get sent out go ahead and Read the agenda actually
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Now I'm realizing that I had a I had a paper on my desk that had extra notes on all of this that I had
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Scribbled in here and I don't have that on me. So I'll try to remember some of the things that I wrote down Yeah, read the read the agenda and consider the motions
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Proverbs 14 8 says the wisdom of the prudent is to discern his way, but the folly of fools is deceiving
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The wisdom of the prudent is to discern his way to consider matters beforehand not just last minute, you know in the moment so for example, you know, we
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One of the things we always do is we accept the minutes from the previous meeting as being accurate
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That's very helpful If you just go ahead and read the minutes of the previous meeting Beforehand so that you're not reading them for the first time then a lot of times people will point out
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Issues that they only just noticed because they only just are looking at it. That's uh
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It would be helpful to get those those edits in beforehand, but then when it comes to more serious matters of church life
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You know adding members removing members things like that is important to to consider to consider the matter beforehand the only kinds of things that we don't
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Put on the agenda that would be Well, let me There are several things that we don't put down explicitly on the agenda if there is a matter of Discipline that is very sensitive that we wouldn't want to just put on the on the agenda and then mail out without an ability to explain it, you know
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Proverbs 18 17 says that That the one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him, right?
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It would not be it would not be appropriate to announce some things without Actually being in the context where it can be discussed more fully
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And so that would be an example where something of something that we don't put an explicit detail in the meeting up front but we do always make
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But if we were to do that, we would not be voting on it there and then as some surprise thing, right? It would be we'd be voting on it later.
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So there still is there's always Opportunity to consider matters beforehand. Okay, nothing.
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Nothing that we vote on is ever like a surprise at the meeting All right, ask questions ahead of time
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Hebrews 13 17 says obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to Give an account let them do this with joy and not with groaning for that would be of no advantage to you okay, so When we have motions that are put forward in almost every circumstances the elders who are putting the motions forward and it's our role to teach why this is why this is a matter that we should vote on if this is something where You don't are not just why we should vote on why why you should vote positively why you should vote.
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Yes yay to whatever the the motion is If you see something in the agenda that does not
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Does not resonate with you you think you're going to need Some time with the elders to understand it or to be convinced then go talk to them beforehand don't
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Yeah, don't wait until the meeting in order to Yeah in order to have all of these things talked about and settled now it is the case that You know, we do announce some motions we announced beforehand, right and we have a meeting to discuss them and then eventually the
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At the meeting afterward we'll actually vote on it So if that's if that's the kind of thing that's happening, you know
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It's totally appropriate to go to the meeting and to hear the elders presentation, right and not have everything explained to you beforehand
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But if it's a matter where the meeting That is upcoming is going to be one where there's a vote or there is something that's going to be discussed that is more urgent These are times when you should when you should go and talk to the elders and make sure that you
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Are on the same page as much as possible Also Just having one quick discussion is not necessarily due diligence in these circumstances.
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You know if you Meet with the elders or an elder and you find that You still have lots of questions or a lot of lots of misgivings about a particular thing
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Consider whether or not there's still a lot of room for for follow -up in order to yeah in order to understand more also
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Husbands are to lead their wives in considering motions amos 3 3 2 2 walk together unless they have agreed to meet this is said in a list of You know proverbs that are kind of like Yeah, they're just simply true it's obviously true that To don't walk together unless they unless they are agreed to go in the same direction unless they're agreed to meet together
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It is important for husbands and wives to be on the same page about important things in life and Church matters are important things in life
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So husbands should recognize that if their duty is to lead their wives
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Is their duty to lead their wives in considering motions? So if you are a husband if you're a man of family
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Do not wait until the you know, and you're on the let's say you're on the same page about whatever the motion is
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Don't just assume that your wife is as well, right go ahead talk to her about the motions.
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Make sure you all are United on everything run through everything beforehand and your wife doesn't understand something.
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It's your job to To teach her if you don't know then it's your job to figure out
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Okay, any questions about any of that? All right
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Let's keep going. All right arriving at meetings Yeah, check the calendar beforehand
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That is available. You can find it in the footer of the website. There's a lot of I have gotten the comment before that there are a bunch of pages on the website that people didn't know that they exist
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Almost all those are linked in the footer of the website. There's just a whole bunch of them including the members meeting schedule so if you
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Yeah, if you go there, you can go see all the the schedule for the next two years basically In the past the past two or three years probably three or four years we've been meeting on Monday nights for regular meetings we just We've decided recently that we're going to start meeting on on Sundays after the after the afternoon service
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Originally we had the concern that would be too taxing but then at the same time If people have things going on every other day of the week
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We wouldn't want anyone to be disenfranchised and not being able to come and Sunday is a day that we've set aside for the worship of the
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Lord, so it's good that we would meet on that day to be able to Decide these matters.
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Okay. So if you look at the if you look at the schedule all the all the regular Members meetings are going to be on on Sunday from starting in 2025
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So Less need to check the calendar beforehand because hopefully your work schedule is not conflicted with that but still
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Still reason to check calendar beforehand in case you may have scheduled a vacation Over one of these meetings that you would definitely want to attend
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All right Next is arrive on time. This is kind of a an obvious thing to Point out but and I understand that like there are there are
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Difficulties a lot of times the ladies will be trying to get the kids settled in the training room or something before the meeting and I under I understand all that but Given that we need a quorum in order to start there have been a number of times where?
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The meeting time has come and we're sitting here waiting for just one more person To show up to see if we can start the meeting, right?
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And it's like 50 -50 whether or not if we wait 10 more minutes. Are we going to be able to have this meeting or not? so Yeah, good reason to show up on time now if we're having this
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Sunday after the after the service a lot of these concern gets to go away, but But yeah, just something to consider
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Yeah, I mean there was a time. I mean it was only what four or five months ago
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We had a meeting scheduled where we just didn't have the meeting because there weren't enough people to have the meeting Quorum is one -third of the membership body.
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By the way, if anybody wanted to know yes That was your question. All right. Yeah, it's one -third and right now we are 39 members.
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So that would be 13. Yes That's just what's in our
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Constitution. Yeah typical quorums are One half
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I think that is like the the standard one if you just like are starting a new organization
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Yeah, part of the difficulty is that We don't have like a distinction between It's hard to make a kind of distinction between those who are transferring etc
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So a lot of the members may not even be around to be part of the meeting you know now that we're doing it on Sundays, it might be might be easier to do one half, but Yeah, anyway, that's the that's concern
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Alright listening listening during meeting obviously listen don't interrupt raise your hand speak.
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No side chatter James 1 9 says know this my beloved brothers. Let every person be quick to hear slow to speak slow to anger
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It is a time of teaching You might not think of it that way but it is is teaching just like this, you know
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Just like you understand here, you know, it's right to listen and pay attention Same is true at the out of members meeting
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Because the elders are teaching on the matter at hand and how it is to be voted on All right.
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Secondly, do not be anxious Lippians 4 6 says do not be anxious about it anything but in everything by prayer and supplication
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With Thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God All right so It's been a while since we used to do it this way but before about five years ago or so we had not started the pattern where we would take one meeting to discuss a matter and then
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Continue discussing at meetings until the matter had been had been taught on sufficiently to go ahead and vote on it so That means that basically there's there really is no reason to to be anxious about something
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It's not it's not an emergency situation It used to often be an emergency situation because the meeting where it was first discussed was the meeting where it was
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Where it was going to be voted and so I understand there's a little more reason to feel or a little Legitimate or illegitimate.
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There is more more Reasons in play why someone would feel that way
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You'll feel anxious, but you should not be anxious. This is not something to get panicky about Yeah, anything that is going to be voted on The only things that we vote on at the first meeting where we discuss it are
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Adding new members and then approving dismissals and transfers, right? So they're pretty uh, they're pretty standard things that are not
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That don't have uh Controversy now if there is if there is some kind of controversy about them
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Then go ahead and come talk to us beforehand If there needed to be a special meeting to discuss we would we would have that Uh, we just usually don't schedule those multiple um we usually don't have multiple meetings to address those simple membership items because we don't want to uh block people from membership for multiple quarters just to Uh, yeah just to discuss
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So All right Also, uh be reserved with points of order, um there were there was a time when we were kind of uh,
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Improving our use of robert's rules and so People would observe frequently when things weren't done the way they used to be done or something like that and they would
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You know just real frequently. Oh, aren't we supposed to do this? Aren't we supposed to do this? Yeah, uh
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Sometimes that can be helpful. Sometimes that can be useful. Um, make sure Make sure you uh
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Have good confidence for what you're what you're pointing out, uh, my kids and family worship Very frequently
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I will read a chapter especially when we're in the prophets because uh a lot of the prophets the chapters sound very similar
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One after the other right? My kids will really frequently point out. Oh, we just read that chapter last time
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We read that chapter last time and they won't necessarily know it's It can get it can get a a little frustrating to me because I um because you know,
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I try to write down notes and then i'm i'm Trying to figure out Like did did
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I read this last time? I don't know And yeah,
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I feel like it's a 50 50 whether or not they whether or not they really remember or whether or not they have, you know, ghost memories that are coming about because There's a vocab word that they're seeing that they had heard last time, you know, and that's all there is to it
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So anyway, yeah, just be Be reserved with points of order, you know don't need to correct everything everywhere.
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All right Uh speaking speak graciously, uh, do not assume motives comma a
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I don't know what comma a means but uh, Do not yeah do not assume motives
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Uh colossians 4 6 let your speech always be gracious seasoned with salt so that you may know how you ought to answer each person
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In context colossians is talking about speaking to unbelievers, but this is true for believers as well first corinthians 13 7 says love bears all things believes all things hopes all things endures all things a standard verse used to Uh address the issue of assuming the best about others um
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Yeah, there's a It's very it's very easy to um, you know want to interpret motives when you hear other people speaking uh, but You should not operate on those motives.
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You should give people a chance to explain themselves All right speak biblically not pragmatically
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Proverbs 3 5 through 6 says trust the lord with all your heart Do not lean on your own understanding in all your ways acknowledge him and he will make straight your paths uh a stereotype that exists in congregational churches and you know, if you read books on congregationalism, they'll usually mention the stereotype is the lawyer who is there and is
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Whenever something about the constitution is being discussed. He has all kinds of very lawyerly points to bring up but About how things should be phrased etc, right
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Now all of that is very useful information outside the meeting But when we're at the meeting because it is a matter of discerning, uh biblical truth
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It's important to be biblical about our considerations of things Ultimately we're voting when we vote we are voting on whether or not something accords with god's word not uh, whether or not is most pragmatic um
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You know, we elders are very open to hearing considering any kind of pragmatic concerns outside the meeting however
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Ultimately once something is put forward and to be voted on uh, and even when it's being discussed beforehand at the meeting the appropriate
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Basis for conversation for discussion is is biblical concerns biblical concerns
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All right Let's see, okay speak prudently um
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Earlier when I talked about beforehand, uh, you know doing due diligence talking to the elders beforehand, etc
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If this is something that you have not done if you Ought to have um
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Had discussions that you did not have Do not decide that The meeting is going to be the place where you're going to have that discussion, right?
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That's not uh, That's not a great way of going about it And proverbs 17 28 says even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise when he closes his lips
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He is deemed intelligent. Uh, that's that's not the point in time where you want to be Broadcasting ignorance, right?
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That's a point in time where You want to just remain silent and next time make sure that you uh
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Get get uh do that due diligence beforehand All right speak harmoniously.
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I couldn't An example of speaking prudently Right when you've not done due diligence right, so there's a lot of there's a lot of questions that uh could be
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Okay, so let's say let's say you're on vacation Let's say we're going to vote on a constitution change. We have a meeting to discuss it.
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We have a meeting to vote on it Right. Okay. Let's say you were on vacation while we had the meeting to discuss it
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You show up at the meeting to vote on it now all that time You could have you could have come talk to the elders say hey I won't be at this meeting because you give me a quick rundown of the reasonings, you know, etc
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Right and you choose not to do that You don't do any of that due diligence you show up at the meeting and there you decide to ask all your questions
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State all your objections, etc Right at that final meeting to vote that would be an example of having not done due diligence and then using the meeting inappropriately to um
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To speak in a way that is not not prudent. All right, so that would be that would be one example
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Uh, so yeah There's lots of opportunities for for due diligence to making sure that you have all the information you need to have before a meeting
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Where a vote would take place and and if you haven't done that then you should Uh be very uh, very reserved with anything you might ask or say
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All right Speak harmoniously. I don't I don't know if this is the best adjective or adverb rather, but I could not think of a different adverb um
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There is no reason to voice um There's a lot of things that don't don't need voicing disagreement.
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Now it is it is right for Okay, so for emotion That is
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Where you're going to biblically object You know if we if we say well, we're going to point this, you know woman as a pastor, etc, right
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During the discussion for that vote. It would be totally appropriate to raise a biblical objection to that motion, right?
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Now uh Like I said pragmatic concerns don't need to be raised
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But now think for things that are not motions for things that are not being discussed Or things that are not biblical what purpose does
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Raising objections have okay. So let's say it's a let's say it's a motion And you have a pragmatic reason why you think this is a a bad idea
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If everybody is going to vote together On a biblical basis then what is what is the point of raising pragmatic concerns?
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It is to suggest to people right if you're doing it publicly in front of others, right? It's to suggest to people that maybe this should also weigh in their mind in addition to the word of god, right?
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um now like I said those those concerns are totally appropriate to bring to the elders beforehand because the elders are the ones tasked with the responsibility of considering those uh
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Those pragmatic concerns anything else right that might play into how we put a motion forward, etc
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Uh, that would be that would be totally appropriate. But the only reason to speak
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Disagreements pragmatically publicly would be to have that compete with the word of god in the minds of those who would vote, right?
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So there's nothing there's nothing accomplished by that. Now. Let's let's talk about non -motions Let's say it's something that the elders are announcing that doesn't that isn't a matter of voting, right?
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It's not it's not a new membership it's not a Not eldership not a change to the constitution, etc.
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Right? It's just here's here's an announcement. The elders are deciding to do Let's say you disagree with that It is
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What once again, what is the purpose of voicing disagreement publicly in the meeting?
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So that so that others can hear there would be no purpose other than to Get others on your side.
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What is the purpose of getting others on your side if it's not a matter for voting? Then there would be no
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No good purpose for getting others on your side, right? Like if this is not something that people can change or should change right then it's not uh
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This is not something where you want to get people others on your side. Once again, it's something to talk to the elders about Uh elsewhere if a matter were so Significant.
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Yes. Uh, all right. I'll go ahead and field a couple questions. Emmanuel. Okay Well, you could
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I mean you could meet with one of the elders. That's fine, too. I mean it depends on the depends on the issue but but my point is that My point is that non -motions
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There there's no there's no profitable Aim in disagreeing with non -motions
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Right because they're not something that we're going to be voting on we're going to be deciding this is not If it's not a motion
37:12
Then it being brought up as an announcement is not for Us to decide together, right?
37:18
And so there's really no there's no purpose to to disagree with it publicly Right. Yeah uh, so the way that we this is not in our constitution, but the way that uh,
37:40
We elders informally approach this is we require unanimous consent among us before any changes are made
37:46
Okay, so we don't if there is Now there are sometimes we're not in perfect agreement, but one of us is willing to go along with it, right?
37:54
So we'll we'll still move forward but Each one of us elders has veto rights over any kind of change
38:00
So there's not a case where we put something forward in meeting where we aren't all uh on board
38:07
That just doesn't exist. Uh, no. Okay, brady Right.
38:24
Yes Well, okay so discuss is one thing right if people have questions about what the change is etc
38:35
Like oh, what are we going to be doing at this wednesday prayer meeting? That's all that's totally fine. Uh, the point is
38:42
This is if it's not being presented as something that we are going to decide together Then what's the point of disagreeing with it publicly right like as though it were a matter of debate, right?
38:52
If you have an issue even a biblical issue, right even a even a biblical issue with something that the elders are doing
38:58
That is not a motion that is for debate Then the place to have that discussion would be with the elders who are making the decision
39:06
Not the people who are not making the decision right That's the appropriate place for it because the only purpose in bringing it up to others who aren't part of the decision -making process would be to simply uh you know air discontentment
39:22
Uh, yes, uh, go ahead Like if it was like, yeah, sure
40:00
Yeah, there could be there could be a matter that is so uh
40:06
Yeah, that is so heinous that it would require a public rebuke that wouldn't need to go through the you know
40:15
The channels of uh of matthew 18 where you're confirming that others agree with you and you're not just making this independent judgment um, you know,
40:23
I suppose that that could be the case that's Generally not what's going on. Yeah, right
40:29
And so so just the principle is the discussion needs to happen among those who are the deciders, right?
40:35
And so if something if something were that serious, well, then what needs to be decided is to remove
40:43
Elders who are doing unbiblical things right not to Override them for yeah
40:49
Okay, and so that's a new discussion and you can bring up a motion to do that through Making a court of petition according to the constitution.
40:56
Yes right, so, uh
41:12
Well, we don't we don't vote on the treasury report But that would be a great example of of a time where that conversation should be had privately, right?
41:20
What would be the point of of bringing it up in front of everybody else? It would just be to You know
41:27
The only thing that's accomplished by that is now everybody's concerned about it. What is the point in everybody?
41:32
Being concerned it could be addressed privately like matthew 18 says right if Let's say, you know
41:40
I went out to Uh ruth's chris, you know on the church budget just like really every week, you know, and then someone notices this
41:51
I You know matthew 18 go to your brother privately You bring one or two others if the matter really does need to be made to the congregation
41:58
Then make it to the congregation in a way where they're going to be deciding something Otherwise, it's just making people upset for no reason, right?
42:05
Yeah Yeah, I mean if like I said it can escalate, you know
42:16
If it really is a serious sinful matter you want to bring others into it then do it through the matthew 18 process
42:21
You know as far as it would need to go um Yeah, it would be totally reasonable to talk to them you know if you can't get on the same page maybe bring someone else in and not even
42:30
You know in the context of it doesn't even This is true even if you aren't thinking in terms of Oh, this is this is the sinful kind of thing that could lead all the way down matthew 18
42:42
This is a good principle regardless to just have a private conversation and if somebody else can help mediate bring them in You know, those are those are the appropriate ways of doing that.
42:51
Yeah Yeah, right
42:57
That was correct. Yeah. No, uh, yeah, we'll have something about that in the afterward section.
43:03
All right Let's see, uh speak submissively, um
43:11
James 3 1 says not many of you should become teachers my brothers for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness um
43:19
It's pretty common. Uh During time when there are questions and answers to phrase questions in such a way that they are thinly veiled teaching statements uh at the single center this this often happens where uh, we'll have a q a and then i'll answer something in a way that people don't like and they'll
43:39
Uh, they will say well doesn't that mean blah blah blah and so it's technically a question but It's pretty clear that this person wants to let everybody else know that what
43:48
I said was, you know Was wrong, etc. Um, so yeah, don't um Uh, like I said
43:57
For emotion where you have a biblical disagreement that would be appropriate to speak, but there still should be an attitude of of submissiveness that understands that That's not eager to take a
44:12
Teaching station or posture And yeah isn't going to ask questions that are thinly veiled statements
44:20
Okay Does that that make sense? This one is uh This one when
44:26
I wrote this down it's kind of it was kind of hard for me to think about how to talk about this because Like I said,
44:32
I think it is appropriate when there is emotion And you do have a biblical disagreement to state that biblical disagreement
44:42
Yeah, but Still there still should be an attitude and a posture of um
44:49
Of being taught because that's what the meetings are, right? They are teaching sessions where the elders are teaching the people how they are to think about a particular issue whether it be membership issue an elder
45:01
Uh, etc constitution change change to our statement of belief things like that All right speak concisely stay on topic.
45:11
Uh the It's worth pointing out one of the things that we do with our um in our constitution we use robert's rules but then
45:22
Uh, we have a restriction where no new primary motions can be brought up at the meeting
45:28
Okay, so we already have built into the constitution a way that we make sure we stay on topic and there There are no new primary motions brought up at the meeting
45:39
But uh, it can still be yeah tempting to Go off on tangents if there's a topic being discussed and it brings to mind something else.
45:47
Uh, Yeah, whoever restrains his words has knowledge and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding um
45:54
Yeah, it's good to uh good to restrain Restrain your words and stick to what is what is on topic
46:01
Okay, and then the last one for this section, uh respect male female roles. So first corinthians 14 34 through 35 says the women should keep silent in churches for they are
46:15
For They are not permitted to speak but should be in submission as the law also says Uh, if there is anything they desire to learn let the master husbands at home for shameful for a woman to speak in church uh, and so this uh, if it applies anywhere it applies it applies in members meetings, um that Like we talked about beforehand that husbands should be leading their wives and how to think about how to think about these motions
46:37
Um if that's the case Uh, you know if you consider the the differences between men and women and women being the weaker vessel, uh
46:46
And you consider how heavy some of the stuff in members meetings can be Uh, it can be a very emotional thing
46:53
And it is good when the weaker vessel, you know, trust the stronger vessel to uh
47:02
Lead in in those discussions. Uh, it's much much healthier that way
47:07
Um Yeah, you can have a very uh
47:12
It can be a very fear -driven conversation if those who are most fearful are the ones speaking
47:18
But it can be a very orderly conversation If uh those who are more fearful are trusting those who are who are put in the positions to have those conversations to be having them
47:27
Yes so uh
47:37
Why don't you explain your reason for saying that? Okay, so I would
47:48
I would argue that those are very different things Okay, I would say that. Um And yeah, you've heard i've taught in the sunday school about this before too the um when it comes to matters of government the reason why
48:05
Voting is meaningful like you see in scripture, right? The people gather to make david king people gather to make saul king
48:12
And who is it that gathers together to make saul king and several other times throughout scripture? It's the warriors, right?
48:18
There there is no Meaning to uh to people's um
48:26
Approval of a king and support of a king Unless it unless they are going to wield the sword on his behalf.
48:33
That is what gives him power Right, and so it is it is those who are strong. It is the men as the warriors, uh, who are
48:42
Who whose authority they are lending to the king, right? So this is what makes it what makes it right for that For matters of government matters of wielding the sword to be made by sword wielders, right to be made by men when it comes to the church
48:59
Uh, this is not wielding a sword. Okay, it's something it's something very different. Uh Who holds the keys of the kingdom right?
49:07
It's key wielding. It's not sword wheeling. Okay sword wielding is particular to men Uh key wielding, um, both men and women can use keys
49:14
Uh It is those who confess that jesus christ is the son of god. They're the ones who have the authority um it in wherever Uh, they're gathered together.
49:24
They have that authority to um, yeah to proclaim uh, yeah to proclaim, uh
49:32
The truth of christ's body, yeah Okay, but yes, uh women should be trusting yeah, and there's this is uh, if you
49:47
You know if you notice in uh the members meetings that um Your wife seems uneasy real good opportunity for you to um, yeah
49:59
Speak about these things at home and make sure that you are being uh, the the leader That you ought to be
50:07
All right. So now voting, uh when you vote, uh vote on a biblical basis, uh, first corinthians 1 10
50:13
I appeal to you brothers by the name of our lord jesus christ that all of you agree There be no divisions among you but that you be knighted in the same mind in the same judgment
50:21
Uh, this is impossible to do i've talked about this before but it's impossible to do If we are going to be voting on preferences this only works if we are voting on Is something biblical or is it not biblical?
50:34
Okay. That's the only way that we can uh have um Yeah that we can have real unity.
50:41
Uh, the example i've brought up before I think is a good one. We voted on the Changing the church name
50:48
Uh because it's in the constitution. It does have to do with the identity of the church What we're asking when we vote on this is is this name does it accord with what the bible's with the bible, right?
51:00
Um, is there anything unbiblical about it? No, it's very easy to look at that and want to vote on a preference basis of do
51:08
I like this name More than the old name that kind of thing, right? uh, but The basis that you're supposed to be voting on is a basis where we can have the same judgment where we can agree
51:19
Which is what does the word of god say? All right, uh another one, uh, keep your hand up until the results have been called
51:27
If when there are matters that are not just obvious and everybody's raising their hand uh what ends up happening is
51:36
Some people will raise their hand and then they're a little embarrassed about it because it's a controversial matter, right?
51:42
And then they put their hand down and then I didn't finish counting and then I asked them to put it back up And so we've got people just going like this all over the place right, and I There are times when i'm like,
51:52
I think I got the count, right? I'm really i'm pretty sure I got the count, right? But it's hard because like people are not uh confident with what they're what they're doing
52:00
Uh proverbs 29 25 the fear of man lays a snare but whoever trusts in the lord is safe Um, yeah, if you're voting biblically just trust the lord.
52:09
Don't worry about what others what others think. Um, Yeah Yes Yeah, I mean if I if I If people keep putting their hand down then that motion will not carry if I miss their hand, right?
52:28
So there are times uh You know There are times where I count one time around And the motion didn't carry and then
52:37
I say keep your hand up and then I count it again And it does carry it's like man. It's a good thing. I asked them to do it again
52:43
Because I missed a hand the first time around Yeah All right uh
52:53
Yeah after meeting, uh, once again, you know, there's no point in in uh, Yeah airing disagreements uh if With those who are not decision makers in those things, uh second corinthians 12 20 right if someone doesn't have a
53:09
I mean, that's kind of like the The key way i've heard gossip defined usually includes in the definition something about whether or not
53:19
Uh, this information is relevant to that person Right if this person is not a decision maker at this point in time in the matter
53:26
And and they are not they cannot get involved in any helpful way Then it is not useful information for them to to speak disagreement to others
53:35
Uh, second corinthians 12 20 for I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish And that you may find me not as you wish
53:43
And perhaps there may be quarreling jealousy anger hostility slander gossip conceit and disorder All right, those all can be avoided.
53:50
Uh, galatians 5 15 But if you bite and devour one another watch out that you are not consumed by one another
53:57
That is the natural thing that happens biting devour Is a synonym for eating so Consuming is also a synonym for eating if you eat each other you will eat each other
54:09
All right pursue Reconciliation once again if there were disagreements at the meeting, uh, like I said, these are very important matters
54:18
So on one hand it is somewhat understandable that there would be offenses Matthew 18 15 if your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault between you and him alone
54:28
If he listens to you you have gained your brother All right So yeah, go talk to your brother and then the other way around if you know that someone else
54:36
If there's something you need to clear up with someone else because you have offended them So if you're offering your gift at the altar in there
54:42
Remember that your brother has something against you leave your gift there before the altar and go first be reconciled to your brother And then come and offer your offer your gift
54:51
All right, and then uh, just the obvious thing here given some of the other stuff we've talked about with um due diligence, uh follow up with the elders if there was anything that was confusing or anything that you uh,
55:05
If you do have disagreements right the part one to state those two is the Are the elders um proverbs 1 5?
55:14
The wise hear and increase in learning and the one who understands obtain guidance. All right any questions?
55:22
Yes, sorry a little louder there's probably a lot of a lot of room for Getting on the same page still right?
55:43
There's probably a lot of room for discussing it for longer and um, yeah, and I would recommend doing that if you
55:51
You know if you vote on something, but you see that there was uh, someone who felt very differently about the biblical case
55:59
That means there's a lack of unity right and so we should become unified on these matters, uh, it'd be good to have
56:07
One conversation have multiple conversations As needed until you get to a point where it is clear that well, maybe this is something you just disagree about But at least you can clear up as much as you possibly can with one another
56:21
Yeah Anything else any other questions? All right
56:30
Let's go ahead and close Dear heavenly father. Thank you for the wonderful privilege. It is to exercise the keys of the kingdom uh, we ask that you would help us to do so with the
56:41
Humility gratitude and responsibility that this tax deserves in jesus name.