Various Articles and Open Phones on the Dividing Line

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Started off with various articles that I’ve collected, one by a Roman Catholic taking cheap shots at me, others on the continuing degradation of our society and the rise of totalitarianism. Then we opened up the phones and took calls on such subjects as the regulative principle of worship (actually got into the exclusive psalmody and instruments in worship debate a bit), theological liberalism, Islam and Paradise, and OT sacrifices. Enjoy!

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00:34
Well, greetings and welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday I've got a oh there.
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We we had a pixelated dead screen and there there it is Good to have with us.
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We're gonna be taking some phone calls later on in the program at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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I Was directed to a hit piece this morning that I wanted to respond to very quickly and then we have some
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Comments to make on certain events since Tuesday and then we'll get to your phone calls so one individual in on Twitter had said that the
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Need some help with Challenge that had been given to them by Jehovah's Witnesses.
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So I said, well, we'll probably be taking some phone calls. So I invite that person Especially to call in.
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I don't know who Alan rule is I did some quick just very quick looking around There's a
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Jenny rule that's written some books in Amazon on low -carb diets and Nothing at all on YouTube debates lectures
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Nothing, but he has written James. Why is extremely dishonest and should not be taken seriously
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Alan rule is a Romanist and he's a Romanist who engages with Muslims, ah
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Start putting that together and you start seeing Maybe why this is going on because I have been very clear in Saying to my
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Muslim friends Roman Catholicism does not represent biblical Christianity It's a completely different message different gospel
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The exaltation of Mary in Roman Catholicism, you know half half the time
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That I engage with my Muslim friends in regards to texts such as surah 5 1 16
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They end up going back to Roman Catholicism as an illustration of taking
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Jesus and his mother as gods besides Allah and Interestingly enough, mr rule doesn't mention this but I have even even though I Clearly view and have proven and defended in debate
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Against people who actually do write books and stuff on from the Roman Catholic side the the reality that that view of Mary is idolatrous
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It is not biblical even though I do that I also have to correct my
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Muslim friends and point out that even Rome Very carefully says
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Mary is not deity now. They blur the lines. They're they're the ones that have done it
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They have no biblical basis for doing it but I've tried to be accurate about that as well.
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Well, why am I extremely dishonest and should not be taking seriously? Well, He talks about To all
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Muslims who read this blog, please pay attention because we all need to expose the dishonesty of this man
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Christians and Muslims. I don't know why he doesn't capitalize Muslims. Why don't you capitalize Muslims? I wonder if they find that disrespectful
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Christians capitalize what Muslims aren't Christians and Muslims both value honesty
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So we should make it our goal to show that that James White embraces the same inconsistency of which he accuses
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Muslims First of all, I don't see why Muslims would watch Catholic versus Protestant debate So I can understand why they wouldn't have seen this but they'll be surprised to know that White is a huge hypocrite on the issue of using liberal scholars in debate.
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In 2008 when James White and Shabir Ali debated on Muhammad in the Bible Ali quoted many liberals including
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Raymond Brown. White spent almost the whole debate trying to point out It is inconsistent to try to use liberal scholarship to try to make supernatural claims
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I agree with this, but the problem with White is that he has no problems when doing this with Catholicism.
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In 2001, he debated father Peter Stravinskis on the doctrine of purgatory. In this debate, he employed the tactics
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He condemns when used by Islamic apologists. The debate can be found here At least provide a link.
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At the 45 -minute mark He says hence as Roman Catholic McBride admits there is for all practical purposes no biblical basis for the doctrine purgatory
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This is not to say there is no basis for at all for the doctrine But only that there is no clear biblical basis for it.
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When I first heard this statement I couldn't believe what I was hearing. James White has the audacity to quote this Ultra -liberal scholar
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Richard McBride to a Catholic opponent to make a point But when Shabir Ali quotes E .P. Sanders, Rudolph Bultman or Raymond Brown, it's a big deal.
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That is complete hypocrisy Hypocrisy for someone who claims to be a Christian. No, that's a demonstration, sir, that you don't have a clue how to think clearly
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You don't know what categories are and you don't know what context is either Might explain why you're a
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Romanist apologist, but let's put this one to bed and do it quickly Who was
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I debating? Father Peter Stravinskis, huh? Peter Stravinskis.
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Well Where did Peter Stravinskis get his two earned doctorates? Ivy League schools, huh?
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You think there's just a small chance That at every school that Stravinskis taught at and every school where he learned people like McBride and and these others
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Raymond Brown were the biggest names possible Let's try something else.
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Mr. Rule since you seem to be such a conservative Catholic How about the fact that your current
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Pope is just as liberal as either one of them? How about the fact that it's your
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Pope's that keep putting these people on the Catholic Biblical Commissions? Maybe when
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I'm debating a Roman Catholic who is defending the current papacy Using the current standards of the papacy might be a good idea
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What do you think and you think that might be just a little bit different than the situation of a
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Muslim? Who accepts a supernatural worldview believes the moon has been split believes
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Muhammad Flew on a winged beast from Jerusalem up through heaven and back again you think you think maybe the level of inconsistency and the character of the inconsistency and the kind of the inconsistency is completely different because of the context
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Yeah, well So I am quote -unquote dishonest because I actually use the sources that my opponent would be the one who's utilizing and That somehow is he just completely misses the category difference between that and dealing with a
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Well the Shabir Ali who continually says scholars scholars scholars standard over here different standard different scholars over here when
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I'm defending the Quran or coming up with The argument for the number 19 in the Quran or whatever else it might be
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Has nothing to do with this dishonesty has nothing to do with inconsistency it has to do with the fact that mr. Rule Seemingly cannot follow category errors or just simply commits them very badly
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So I found that fascinating that a Roman Catholic. Oh later on this makes me sick well
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The the temperature of my response is directly correlated to the temperature of his absurd
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Attack, and I hope if any Muslims had seen that let me repeat it one more time
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Roman Catholicism is not biblical Christianity Roman Catholicism has a different gospel And I think most
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Muslims can see that I think especially if Muslims Obtain any level of familiarity with the
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New Testament. They can see that the simple Pure faith of the
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New Testament the worship of the New Testament Church the organization of the New Testament Church All they gotta do is compare that with what they see in the
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Vatican or what they see with well What the current Pope and his perspectives and his viewpoints and his worldview?
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Massive difference Massive difference no no no two ways no two ways about it, but they're they're massive distinction between those who hold to sola scriptura and Those who do not it is interesting leaving that that behind now it is interesting to look at The distinctions amongst
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Muslims and sort of try to draw parallels You know
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I was explaining Sufism or at least elements of Sufism to some folks and when
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I when I use the term charismatic a lady started laughing in the in the audience it really struck her as funny, but There are
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Muslims who have a much higher view of the later tradition and Then Muslims that reject that Can you really draw a parallel that to the
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Reformation and things that not really? You've got very very different situations.
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You've got You've got pretty much a controlled Governmental control in Islam at the beginning over against the persecution of the
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Christians by the Roman Empire for hundreds of years really It I don't see any benefit whatsoever
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To Trying to make the parallel because there's just there's just too many differences too many differences
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But some people do and it doesn't work out real well Before I go to phones some of the stuff
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You know last week Started with Donald Trump and his comments about Transgender bathrooms and Trump Tower and all that kind of stuff then a few days later
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This didn't seem this just didn't seem to hit big and I'm not really sure why but Former senator
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And the Democrat from Pennsylvania Senator Harris Wofford Senator Harris Wofford has announced that He will be marrying a man 50 years his junior next weekend, which would have been this past weekend 20 years after his wife's death.
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Did you see this? Yeah Wofford is 90 So he's marrying a 40 year old man 20 years after his wife passed away and he is a former
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Democratic senator from the state of Pennsylvania when
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I first saw it, I you know, the first thing you have to do is is check the source
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Is this the onion? Or you know now there's there's dozens of onion type sites at least some of them are straight up front and and really easy to Recognize and and then of course we have the the new already classic
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Christian satire website the Babylon B Which I've already appeared on a couple of times the the
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Babylon B But comes from Fox News, which sometimes can be a little weird, but I You don't even know what to say anymore when you have article after article after article
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That is not nothing more than the written evidence of the stench of a dead and decaying society
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That's what it is It it is obviously to me a a horrific insult to the memory of this man's wife
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But once you have Destroyed all meaningful ethical and moral categories
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Once you have destroyed the very meaning of what marriage is once everything has become Just about me me me my feelings my emotions my etc
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Once there's no longer any objective morality then this kind of stuff is just going to become second nature and I Pray that'll continue to grieve me.
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But honestly when it just becomes a a daily type thing Eventually numbness sets in and and what's
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You know, our grandchildren are just gonna be so surrounded by this. How How can they not be?
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Deeply impacted by it to where it becomes the norm where that's just the way that it is
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It's it's it amazes me it it really it really does
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At the same time We noticed that well on a a
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Roman Catholic campus This is an article dated to 27th, this is yesterday
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Jesuit University Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles Called the
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Los Angeles Police Department both the police and the university's bias incident response team bias
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Incident response it means that's Burt You know
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Burt used to be a Character on Sesame Street now now Burt is the bias incident response team also known as the thought police
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Both the police and the university's bias incident response team are investigating the stated belief
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That only two genders exist male and female as a hate crime
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So a Conversation took place on campus on a
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Catholic a Jesuit campus and someone who actually still believes in What the
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Jesuits have always taught? Said to someone else that you're either a male or a female and They denied
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Transgenderism Call the cops Call the cops utter
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Totalitarianism utter Totalitarianism you will think like us you will act like us
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Oh Liberty no No only for us only if you look like us only if you talk like us absolutely amazing of course
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Then we have the story from NC State Want to talk about Jesus you'll need to pick a permit for that need a permit for that a
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Permit is required before students can talk about Jesus in North Carolina State University according to a lawsuit filed in federal court grace
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Christian life registered student group at NC State filed suit over policy requiring a permit for any kind of student speech or Communication anywhere on campus including religious speech this is
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This is the former United States of America. Can we can we get around to recognizing that now?
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This is the former United States of America. It's not the United States of America. I grew up a
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Revolution has taken place Thankfully, it was mainly well. I was about to say It was a bloodless coup.
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That's the terminology. It's used and that's True in the sense that there was not warfare in the streets.
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There were not armed parties But we dare not say that it was without bloodshed
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Because you need to understand that one of the central platforms of the revolution was erotic freedom and one of the central pillars in the temple of erotic freedom and human autonomy is abortion
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So it wasn't bloodless Millions more than 50 million had to be sacrificed on the altar of Mulloch to bring a part about the absolute desensitization and the dehumanization of the very nation that had won
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World War two other nations were were just other nations suffered greatly suffered far more than we did
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I mean But it was our military might and our military power that defeated the
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Germans and the Japanese Nobody else had the equipment.
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Nobody else had that kind of manufacturing capacity. We couldn't do that anymore
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There is no way this nation could win a war like that any longer couldn't happen.
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I'm not just talking about militarily It's it's a cultural thing I've seen these memes you've seen them too
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Comparing the 18 year olds in combat gear getting ready to jump off of landing craft
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Normandy versus the safe space warriors today
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And there is no comparison and the safe space warriors are not liberating the world from anything
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There there is there is there's no connection between the two and There is far more truth to that than then we might want to understand but The campuses the universities
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The totalitarians are really just they they're not even bothering to pretend any longer
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You will think like us you will talk like us First Amendment doesn't hold here.
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There is no religious freedom The only freedom you have is erotic freedom
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The only freedom you have is to act like us and talk like us and everything else will be silenced
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We are totalitarians aren't even bothering to hide it anymore They don't figure anyone cares they've won the war and There you go.
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There you go And so this kind of stuff is absolutely all around us and it is shocking eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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It Does seem to me that for all intents and purposes?
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The the election as far as the primaries is is over and Now there's there's still
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I still just I just still wonder I just still wonder What if maybe possibly?
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The FBI does what the FBI has to do because As far as I can tell
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Remember General Petraeus General Petraeus got into a lot of trouble.
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He will have to be apologized to if there is not an indictment handed down against Hillary Clinton and Part of me wants to say that will change everything and in another part of me goes that'll change nothing
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It'll change nothing. I Honestly have become so jaded so skeptical that I honestly think
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That they would just press on and say ah No one cares about emails
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You know just because this exposed our nation to you know, put lives in danger.
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Maybe even cost lives I know one really cares and it it all goes back to the public sector unions
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And I just I honestly don't believe my vote counts any longer. I think the system is broken
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All I know is the news channels would love it
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They could go wall -to -wall and and just make all sorts of money in in the process and it does make me
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Make me wonder But We'll see what happens.
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We'll see what happens I'm just sort of watching from the outside any longer to be perfectly honest with you
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I'll I've mentioned this before just be very brief as we've got phone lines lined up and I don't see the one
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Caller about Jehovah's Witnesses. So hopefully we'll be able to get them on if they've tried calling But Well, let's well, we'll go ahead and go to go to go to the callers here.
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We won't worry about anything else I have to say eight seven seven seven five three, three, three, four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and Let's start with Austin.
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Hi Austin Hello Austin, hello
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Austin, I can't hear anything. Hello. Oh, there he is Hey, sorry.
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I'm having a hard time hearing You hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Okay. How you doing today? Just fine
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Um, so I had a question about the regulative principle of worship I'm a relatively new believer about three years or so and through your ministry.
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I came to show the doctrines of grace and now I consider myself a reformed
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Baptist, but I go to school at UNC Chapel Hill and I'm going to Presbyterian Church up here.
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Do you have a do you have a permit? Austin do you have a permit to be to be calling you right now? Well, you know what
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My friends over at NC State would definitely need a permit if they were calling you on campus That is amazing
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It is. I saw the news article yesterday, I couldn't believe it. I mean Anyway, okay, so you're going to a reformed
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Said reformed Presbyterian Church, right? Yeah, I think you're familiar with Dr. Rosaria Butterfield. Oh, yeah, sure
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Yeah, yeah, it's her and her husband At that church she doesn't have a pastor there and they are exclusive psalmody acapella singers
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Uh -huh. So they've been yeah, they've been kind of talking to me about some of that stuff and sharing their beliefs
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And so I just wanted to start out just by asking you I think from some of the comments that I've heard you make on the dividing line you do hold to the regulative principle
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Well, yeah, I I do but you need to understand that regulative principle is is interpreted in a number of ways
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That in general the the concept is that Worship is not something that God has left up to us just to do as we
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See fit as we feel is appropriate Etc, etc that he has laid out guidelines as to what his worship is to Consist of now, obviously the great
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Controversy that has existed really since time of the Reformation primarily is
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Well, but how do you interpret? the scriptures in regards to what has and has not been commanded and so some of the areas of differences have to do with well, what you've what you've mentioned you mentioned two areas the the utilization of instruments in Christian worship and the singing of something other than the the
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Psalter and And Generally the vast majority of those who came out of the
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Reformation Accepted that while God has definitely given guidelines for what he how he is to be worshipped and so in other words the
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The the fact that the central aspect of worship is the proclamation of his truth.
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There is there is singing there is prayer There isn't liturgical dance or the utilization of Hollywood rock stars that type of thing the specifics
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Do tend to the majority have not taken quite as strict a view as that In regards to exclusive psalmody, there's you know, lots of I've got lots of good friends that are exclusive psalmist.
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I am NOT I don't believe that That you can and I've heard all the arguments, but I don't believe you can turn psalms hymns and spiritual songs and the psalms psalms and psalms and I the strongest argument
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I've ever heard extra biblical argument I've ever heard on the subject is quite simply this it is difficult to imagine
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That it was the intention of the Apostles To teach us that we could never sing a song that was specifically have in it the name of Jesus And It seems very clear to me that we do have a fragment of a hymn in Philippians 2 5 through 11, and if we do
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Then that in and of itself would be scriptural refutation of the idea Why would you be writing hymns to the church if you weren't gonna be seeing them in worship?
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so my exclusive psalmist friends try to say it's actually not a hymn and and Jesus is
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Jehovah and Jehovah's Name appears in the Psalms and you can't sing that but but obviously It was the manifestation of Jesus in the flesh as Jesus That I'm talking about when
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I refer to that, but and then as far as music, I'm sorry, go ahead I'm looking a little bit more at this point at the the instrument
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Right. I was about to know that they would classify that is Like you'll be violating the elements of worship if you use instruments
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I went on like some of the founders churches website and they classify those as like a circumstance of worship
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Do you have an opinion on that? Well it you know that one's strange when if you have exclusive psalmody the
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Psalms themselves refer to using instruments so You have to really start Bending stuff to to try to fit all of this together because very clearly even it's interesting my fellow elder
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When we first went to Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church, I remember the first time I heard him read a psalm that contained the term
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Selah and He would read it and I had never heard anyone read
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Selah before. Yeah, I found that and he still does and I guess sometimes when
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I read the Psalms I do too, but sometimes I don't because most of us believe that Selah was a metric or Song indicator a change of tune or key or something it had something to do with the fact that these were actually songs and the
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Psalms themselves contain References to the instruments that are to be used with it
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And so if that was acceptable then what on what principle do you then say?
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No, it's you know, for example, I I I Do personally miss when
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I'm in a church where the hymnals have been replaced with a projection system
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Yeah, I miss the ability to sing parts in harmony in the songs
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Because I can't if I don't have if I don't have the music I can't I can guess at the bass part but and in some songs
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I already know the bass part so I can do it then but Most of the time I just sort of have to sing along with everybody else and I can't really
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You know participate on on on that particular level. So there are there are instances where?
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having a piano for example absolutely necessary for keeping everybody together and keeping going the right direction and getting us all started in the right key and and There are times when we don't have our piano player at PRBC and I hate when that happens when
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I'm the one Preaching and I don't have my fellow elder to help Because there have been a couple times
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Getting that hymn started was an absolute disaster. It was and it almost it was almost distracting to be pretty honest with you because you know,
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I just remember this one where You know, I'm looking at the notes and for some reason the last hymn just blew the next tune out of my mind
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I I just and We got about half a thing into it and we all stopped and and finally eventually one guy down front got a start in the right
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Tune, but he's he's this big huge dude So he was about 14 octaves below any of the rest of us what any of the rest of us could do
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So it was it was funny. Anyways a little personal story there, but um, you know
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I understand You know, I would rather have people
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Concerned about these issues than apathetic about these issues
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That was you know, so I suppose if it's got to be one way or the other I'd rather have the concern at the same time
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Unfortunately, I I have encountered some folks who could get a little bit Aggressive about it.
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Yeah, you know and so there's there's a there's a balance in there someplace but You would view that maybe is something that's at the discretion of the the elders of the local congregation.
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Oh, yeah Yeah, I yeah most definitely I think the elders the congregation should be convinced about it should be able to give a response for it and say here's where we stand on this and Obviously we have good relationships with churches that would differ with us on that because we're not exclusive psalm
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We do sing a lot of psalms We probably sing more psalms than a lot of people would would at all be comfortable with But we're not exclusive psalmist.
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So and we do have a piano. We have an organ too, but it's it's it's it's
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It's it's been dead longer than I've been at the church and it's and it's slowly Disappearing because the kids are slowly cannibalizing little pieces off of it
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So it's really sort of humorous that we're all watching this happen over time But we also have an overhead projector over in the corner of the
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Bible study room that has not moved literally for about 30 years So that's just Reformed Baptists are just that way
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So just real quickly to play devil's advocate for them on there. You're talking about the use of the instruments of Old Testament worship
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I've had no state to me that Those instruments were used in connection with the sacrificial system when they were in worship and Christ doesn't point to Christ They what?
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What they do whack the lamb over the head with the heart I know
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I I'm sorry. I don't
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There is there is a tremendous for example I think there's a pretty fatal argument against that the the the the ascent
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Psalms Were sung on the way to Jerusalem for worship, but there are instruments used with them.
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They weren't even in the temple yet so I I just don't see any connection any meaningful connection between Those instruments and the sacrificial system at all.
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Okay I don't see it. All right. All righty. Well, thanks very much. Dr. White. Hey, thanks Austin. I appreciate God's brother 877 -753 -334 -1
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Let's talk with Jeremy. Hi, Jeremy Dr. White, how you doing? Doing good So I have a question in regard to the
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Church of Christ my co -worker recently left from a Catholic Church with his wife and I got to get him to go to a small
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Baptist Church for a while and Recently his wife forced him to leave the church because she rejects original sin.
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Oh and So Right after they left they joined the
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Church of Christ and when he told me I tried Orchestrating a meeting with the two of them to talk to them over this issue
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But his wife told the elders of the church and he basically told him to shun me at work and Is this let me ask you a question
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Jeremy is this would this happen to be the International Churches of Christ Yeah, the
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ICC Okay. Yeah need to need to include that in there because The old line
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Church of Christ groups some some down south could be that Aggressive But as soon as you said that It sounded to me like an
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ICC issue because they tend to be quite cultic Yeah, I know. I'm scared for him because I mean you recently left the
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Roman Catholic Church and yeah I've been trying to pour and send the Reform faith. Yeah, and you know his wife would totally reject original sin and I really really, you know wanted to talk to them about that issue and tell them that the scriptures are very clear about that and They're basically, you know wanting to shun me and I'm scared for my friend because I mean he really respects my decision
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I told my bro like within your theology I'm not saved and I usually like flush crap that and I'm just Wanted to come to you to get you know wisdom as to what
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I should do. Yeah Unfortunately, it's been a long time since I've done Almost anything
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In reading up on any new developments on the ICC it was if I recall correctly,
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I could be wrong about this, but I I think Eric Nielsen wrote a couple of articles for us a number of years ago on our blog which
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I think everything which was once on the blog is now been posted in the archives of the blog, but There might be something
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I think rich may be looking right now. Is that what you're doing out there? He's he's checking but there might be something on the
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International Churches of Christ on the blog If not, I'm sure there probably is it some of the organizations like personal freedom outreach?
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It's not one of the areas that we we focus upon or have done any debates on or anything like that other than that to recognize that The guy that started was named
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Kip something as I recall But yeah, he was weird I can't hear you rich,
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I'm sorry Kip Kinkle I didn't start that doesn't sound right to me. But anyway
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Was there something up there? Was there something on our website from Eric Nielsen or anything? Not not there.
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Okay, anyway personal freedom outreach Maybe CARM some of those groups might have some specifics on the
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ICC the people who keep an eye on on their recent developments But they they really should be distinguished from the mainline
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Churches of Christ Which which do have some obviously there's some serious problems the old line
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Church of Christ as far as almost getting to the point of Pelagianism and baptismal regeneration all that kind of stuff, but a lot of Churches of Christ that aren't
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ICC have Somewhat liberalized and somewhat backed off from some of those things.
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So there is there is a distinction It needs to be brought there. But yeah, they will utilize that kind of pressure to keep conversation from happening and it's it does sound like your friends are in a situation about out of the frying pan into the fire and The problem is that the same kind of works orientation that was very much a part of Roman Catholicism They just went right back to it in a in a bare -bones version and the
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ICC version of it So what can you do about that? Well It sounds from the way you described it it almost sounds like your friend the husband
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Isn't really in charge as far as spiritually goes in. Yeah, he's not he's very Quiet he's very
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Passive. Okay, so his wife is opposite. She's very aggressive and she holds I don't know.
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She's very I Don't know. Yeah, that's gonna make that's gonna even make it harder. You can you can try to keep this by the way
39:57
It's Kip McKean. Thank you to a book. I'm gonna keep on on Twitter You can try to keep avenues open with him apart from her but you know and and Not so much.
40:17
I wouldn't so much focus on original sin as I would upon the the positive Element, which is the the power of grace
40:25
You know issues related to man's deadness and sin things like that But you know if she just slams the door all you can pray is that that door will eventually come open simply because it's there's there's a real weariness with Having gone from work salvation system to another work salvation system
40:48
But yeah, it's tough situation they're in no two ways about it Yeah Well, thank you for your help dr.
40:54
White, okay. Thanks Jeremy. Thanks for your call. Take care Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.
41:03
Let's talk with Danny. Hi Danny Hey, good afternoon. Dr. White. I have a very short question.
41:09
It's on the fig tree, but don't worry It's from a Christian perspective. I just wanted to ask how you understand mark 1113
41:17
Without disputing that you know without while still agreeing that it's a physically acted out Metaphor of sorts being that it the text seems to say that he wanted to see if there was any food on the tree
41:27
Should we still interpret this within the within like a diophysite framework as like?
41:34
It's still referring to his delimitations on his human nature. That's just a question No, I I think that The the whole issue of the fig tree.
41:43
It says he went to see if perhaps he would find anything on it Jesus Obviously knew what the season for figs was this was a fig tree that had given indication by being in leaf and the whole point
42:01
We have to understand that both Matthew and Mark Place this in the same in the same context and they're communicating the same thing
42:11
Everyone understood that the fig tree what had relationship to the people of Israel If you if you read the parables remember in Matthew, you're gonna have
42:22
Matthew 23 You're gonna have everything that happens as far as in the temple precincts
42:28
It seems very very clear that what is being communicated is this is a symbol for the people of Israel and It looks like something that it is not and so I I think trying to read anything more into it and going
42:44
G is really want to eat figs and He didn't get any and and that was just a limitation of his knowledge or anything like that I think both
42:54
Matthew and Mark would sort of look at you and go I you're over reading me a bit brother
42:59
Just just just look at the whole Message and you'll get it type of a thing.
43:05
I think is what both of them would would say at that point So, I don't see any reason to go go beyond that because of the the application is made
43:16
Okay, that's one really other really quick question sure It's a question about the
43:22
Trinity being better. William Lane Craig is writing He's adamant about how the three persons within the
43:28
Trinity are none of them are individually Identical to God. I was just curious what your position on that is.
43:34
Would you say that each person is Identical to the one God or would you take a position like it's and that's all well
43:41
I'm not even sure what I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean Identical to the one to the one
43:48
God You mean the being of God? I mean that I see a fundamental
43:55
Misapprehension of the distinction between being in person in the question. Well, dr
44:00
Craig's position would be that So you have one God that comprises three persons and I guess he would take the position
44:06
It comes up in his philosophical foundations for a Christian world where for example He doesn't take this but for example, no single person is tri -personal
44:15
So then if there's an attribute that God has that no individual person has and therefore he's adamant that no individual person is like Identical logically identical to the one
44:25
God that comprises the three persons I'm just curious where you stand on that I don't understand the statement so I I can't really comment on it.
44:33
I Really don't I mean you the being of God and the persons of God look
44:39
I Have criticized The good dr.
44:45
Craig when he used the example of Kerberos For the
44:50
Trinity in a debate with a Muslim I'm just like excuse me
44:57
That that is there's just a wildly inaccurate analogy and so I've Voiced some concerns and I've forgotten the specifics of it right now
45:09
Because I I've not spent much time with it, but I I also think that there are he has a rather unique Christological issue that I've forgotten
45:20
What it what it is, but? that he's He takes a rather unusual
45:26
Christological stance on certain uncertain things so Maybe that has something to do with what he's insisting on there.
45:34
I really I really don't know Okay, all right. All right. Thank you. Thank you sir. I got this better Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.
45:43
I bet you're not writing any of these down So I'm not even gonna bother to try to remember them, but that's okay Let's go to Waco, Texas, hi
45:50
Kenneth. Hi, Dr. White. Thank you for taking my call. Yes, sir I was calling in hopes of perhaps getting just some pointers or resource recommendations
45:58
I've spent most of my adult life as a Christian Involved with more secularist environments particularly those in academia and you spend enough time in that and you start to learn
46:08
The hot issues that come up but also most importantly the foundational presuppositions and worldview issues
46:15
Rather recently, I've kind of been transplanted more into an environment where I'm surrounded by theological liberalism
46:21
And I'm kind of rushing to catch up on things like attacks against inerrancy Against the dark of hell and things like that, but I'm fine.
46:29
I'm having a lot of trouble Addressing some of the more foundational presuppositions that go into that I'm wondering if like we would see with dealing with atheists and agnostics if you had any recommendations on what
46:40
I ought to be reading if I'm surrounded by Theological liberals at this time. Well a number of things
46:48
It's it's older, but it's foundational Machen's Christianian liberalism his book on the on the virgin birth both of them coming out of that time period where some of the best minds in the
47:03
Christian faith were interacting with Classical liberalism In my experience theological liberalism today has become more like the same kind of Cultural leftism where it's not so much liberal in the sense of allowing for multiple
47:22
Perspectives it's it's adopted the same kind of totalitarian perspective that to where if you're in most liberal seminaries today
47:29
You you're not even going to hear what the old Maybe traditional or conservative perspective is on almost any issue.
47:38
It's just going to be dismissed as well Yeah, people used to believe that but we all know that they you know They thought that the
47:43
Bible was inerrant too. And so they thought you could actually believe these things and it's just sort of dismissed That certainly was my experience even back in the 80s at Fuller Was you know, the my perspective wasn't really given any opportunity of expression
48:00
It was the it was every other perspective that was allowed to have most of the time and that's only gotten worse over time
48:06
Depending on obviously depending on the school you're at or the context in which you're finding yourself. So Back then anyways, there was still
48:15
Meaningful interaction. There's very rarely meaningful interaction from the liberal perspective and on the conservative side
48:23
Certainly other than Machen on a on a real nuts and bolts side
48:29
I've found Gleason Archer's book on encyclopedia of Bible difficulties to be very useful just simply to get some foundational background information on certain issues
48:42
Not worldview issues and things like that. Just just nuts and bolts type stuff. And then as far as other areas well,
48:50
I Actually have read a lot of things a heresy of orthodoxy
48:55
I think is Is gonna be stuff if you look at the heresy of orthodoxy and then you look in the bibliographies of books that are being cranked out by folks like Dr.
49:08
Michael Kruger and Kistamacher not Kistamacher Where's hmm,
49:16
I don't have it in here. I have mainly heresy in this room, unfortunately, but Who who's the other guy?
49:24
On heresy of orthodoxy Kruger and the other editor. I don't can't remember off the top of my head.
49:31
But anyways, if you look into the bibliographies of Some of those books you're gonna find a whole lot more
49:39
Reading that you might want to be doing along along those lines I've mentioned in the past for example,
49:45
I read a book is What was it Israel amongst the gods or something like that?
49:51
That was on archaeology and The the reliability of the the
49:57
Old Testament text there's all sorts of Materials like that that generally you pick up in footnotes and bibliographies and and stuff like that Oh, cuz cost a curse
50:08
Kostenberger. That's that's the other Kistamacher Kostenberger. They all start with a K so But you might find those to be good good resources to get some more foundational materials with I on an apologetic level,
50:25
I still think Bonson's Every thought captive is extremely helpful in resisting
50:34
Movement toward the the liberal side of things as well. Yeah, I've enjoyed that one quite a bit
50:39
But the other but the other stuff then I think you've given me quite a bit of material to keep me busy for a while So, I appreciate that.
50:46
All righty. Thank you God bless Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.
50:52
I don't know. We've got three calls That's probably gonna take us the rest of the time here, but let's talk with Jackie.
50:58
Hi Jackie Hey, dr. Why I'm glad I finally got to talk to you Mike. My question is
51:05
Islam and I just want you to know I study I study your debate over and over and they have been
51:13
Tremendous educational wise and I and I really do want to learn this because for the mere fact that you know, you want these people to be saved, but you know, the thing that I noticed is
51:26
You know if you cut right to the chase that you talk about paradise and heaven and there's just no comparison and I really wonder
51:35
If I mean do you in your experience? Do you think that most Muslims?
51:42
Really understand What is supposedly waiting for them? And if they do shouldn't it be like a red flag to them that there's something very carnal and wrong about their
51:53
You know the writings of the Koran that I don't want to offend any of them But the way it's written it's so clear that man has written the
52:02
Koran I mean if you're someone that studies the Bible is so clear In fact, I sometimes wonder if he made it up as he went along and I'm not trying to be rude but that's just after you know, considerable study and looking at it, but when you look at the fact that Most of the people in hell are women and the man is just all carnal desires
52:22
What's your experience on this? Cuz that really floors me that they still believe just in the fact that paradise and heaven are so different yeah,
52:31
I was a little taken aback in a couple of years ago listening to a debate with Shabir Ali and And some of these issues came up and and he he actually said that that you can you can exercise more discipline and restraint in Here on earth knowing that once you get to heaven, you're gonna be able to not be restrained any longer and and I it does strike me that there is a
53:01
Vast disconnect there when you really think about it what what our desires
53:07
Here on earth should only be even more greatly what our desire is in heaven.
53:13
So if our desire is to be Disciplined here on earth then the idea that somehow we would overthrow that or throw that off in heaven
53:22
Yeah, there's a fundamental difference in what we believe Our relationship with God is going to be but that goes that really goes back to the foundational reality that that as much as Muslims may want to speak about Relationship with Allah there there is no relationship with Allah Allah is utterly transcendent you may make your prayers, but the
53:49
Fundamental thing that Islam is rejecting in Christianity is the nearness and intimacy of relationship with God that the atonement the atonement indicates and the incarnation indicates and so that ends up flowing into our views of What paradise would be and and for the
54:07
Christian, you know When I when I talk with Jehovah's Witnesses and they ask about heaven and stuff like that I say well,
54:14
I can't give you the physical location of heaven, but I can tell you one thing for a Christian it's wherever Christ is and I'm going to be with him
54:21
He has gone to prepare a place for me and and being in his presence whatever you want wherever you want to locate that that's that's where it's going to be for me because of that personal relationship and and The the worship that I want to be able to experience in that situation
54:37
So there is a fundamental difference there, but no until the Spirit of God is is active that kind of contradiction is
54:50
Just simply not going to Necessarily come into the mind Yeah, I understand that we we understand the
54:57
Holy Spirit, you know opens our eyes and I These debates at first I couldn't understand what's the point of the debate?
55:04
But then as I as I see it, you know as far as changing the other person's mind, but they were so educational
55:10
But it just appears that I don't know if their mind just doesn't their
55:15
God is so small Compared to our God and just the fact that they can't understand him entering into his own creation as as you would say and I I just feel like There's such a there's a there's a line drawn as far as the education
55:32
I Really blows my mind that they don't grasp this and yeah
55:38
Well, no, you know until it's until it's until it's made a subject of conversation You know, obviously the
55:46
Spirit of God could cause them to think through something like that But for most people if they're not under conviction, then it's just not something
55:52
It's gonna necessarily jump out and say something to them. So I got a couple others to get through real quick I appreciate the call day
55:58
Jackie. Okay. All right. All right. All right. All right Let's try to sneak the last two in here.
56:04
We may go a little bit long, but that's hey, we're not on a network We don't have to worry about it too much. Let's talk with Ashley.
56:10
Hi, Ashley I Yeah, very good very good a big fan of the show
56:19
And I actually have a lot of your books adorning my my bookshelf at the moment.
56:24
So yeah great work. Well good. Thank you Yeah, the question
56:30
I have revolves around Basically everything that you see in the
56:37
Old Testament From what I can see So the
56:47
The circumcision you know circumcision seems to be a representation of the circumcision of the heart the the blood that you see across the the doors
57:04
Of the people in Egypt Represents the The fact that this
57:15
Okay through those who are justified, you know, they you know, do the blood will cover them basically what
57:23
I'm asking about is the animal sacrifice That was done in the
57:29
Old Testament Did that actually cover sins or were they merely a representation of?
57:37
The sacrifice of Christ's death on the cross. Well, I think I think the answer is given in in Romans and Hebrews both
57:48
Hebrews, of course specifically says there is no forgiveness of sins in the blood of goats and bulls and calves
57:56
So so why do this? well as Paul explains in Romans 3 in talking about Christ Jesus says verse 25 whom
58:04
God displayed publicly as a Propitiation is blood through faith. This was demonstrators righteousness because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed the demonstration
58:16
I say of his righteousness at the present time so he would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
58:22
So What what you have? is the idea that in light of the certainty of Sacrifice of Christ in light of the certainty of the cross
58:38
God passes over the sins previously committed now if they had been quote -unquote atoned for by some other mechanism other than the blood of Christ then they wouldn't have to be passed over but There is no there is no atonement in the blood of goats and bulls and calves
58:57
But they point forward to that finished work of Christ and its faith in God's promises
59:04
That has always been the foundation of a person's relationship with Christ and the cross being the center point of history
59:11
Now we look back upon that those before the cross look forward to that we obviously are able to see with much more clarity looking back than they could looking forward, but The the point is that the cross was an absolute necessity to fulfill the grounds upon which
59:33
God had been propitious and gracious to those who had come before who had believed in him and That it has to be the same ground the the same ground for those came before The same ground for those who come after the cross.
59:47
It's all faith and it's all the sacrifice of Christ Also say essentially it's the same mechanism say whether before Christ incarnation death and resurrection or after we're justified
01:00:03
Well as far as the as far as the grounds goes, yes as far as our knowledge of that Obviously being afterwards we have the great advantage of a much clearer
01:00:15
Revelation a much clearer knowledge of what God has done. But as far as the basis upon which anyone will ever stand before God Given that the standard is perfection.
01:00:26
Yeah, it has to it has to be the same ground Awesome, thank you.
01:00:31
Thank you. Thank you for your call, sir Cheers. All right. God bless All right, one last one.
01:00:38
Um, let's talk to Marie. Hi Marie Hi, hi. Thank you for taking my call.
01:00:44
Yes. I've got a quick question about Islam I have a couple of really good friends who are
01:00:50
Muslim and I mean first and foremost, they are friends and because they're friends we do get into conversations and one
01:01:01
Thing they have said that I can't find answered anywhere is that Jesus didn't mean everything he said and I don't know how to answer that And I wondered if you could help me with where they're coming from Jesus didn't mean everything.
01:01:20
He said Yeah Never heard it before. No, it's lots of debates and things.
01:01:25
Yeah, and I've done lots of debates never heard that one either So I'd need a context. I don't know what they mean by that well, um,
01:01:33
I can't think of the conversation generally now and some of it was confidential, but We were just talking generally and I and when
01:01:41
I speak naturally I don't even realize I'm doing it half the time, but I will quote the Lord and what he said
01:01:46
I will quote the Bible and And I said, oh, yeah, but you know, well Jesus said
01:01:52
Sir, and and the response was oh, yeah, but Jesus didn't mean everything that he said I have a feeling that what they're probably talking about this is this is my best guess is many
01:02:04
Muslims will say that Jesus spoke metaphorically and So for example when he said he was the
01:02:10
Son of God, he didn't really mean he was the Son of God He was just saying he was a godly man or Something along those lines that that's fairly common
01:02:19
I've I've yet to meet a a Muslim who was even semi close to consistent in how they made application of that or had any idea how you could tell the difference between a metaphorical statement or a factual statement or anything else and and Fundamentally what they were doing was well anything that Jesus said that doesn't fit into The misunderstandings of the author of the
01:02:43
Quran Has to be taken metaphorically and couldn't be taken literally That that would that be the only guess
01:02:49
I could give you as to what they're actually referring to Is that they're they're basically saying that there were things
01:02:56
Jesus said that were meant to be taken metaphorically not literally Right, and at that point you have to go.
01:03:04
Well, what are your rules for determining that? I mean, can I not just simply say that you mean that metaphorically and you don't really mean it
01:03:10
Obviously you do really mean it there there has to be something, you know when Jesus says I am the door
01:03:17
There's something in the context that indicates that he's giving us a metaphor. He's using the words to communicate something
01:03:23
But when he says I am the Son of God And quotes from Old Testament passages at his trial and The Jewish leaders tear their robes and accuse him of blasphemy and he should die.
01:03:35
He doesn't say oh no No, no, you didn't understand. I was taking metaphorically No, he he knows that at this point of time is not the time for metaphors
01:03:43
Let's he's being very straightforward and he accepts their understanding. So there has to be there have there are rules in in language
01:03:52
That help us to understand what is a metaphor and what is not you can't just simply say well
01:03:58
If I like what someone's saying, I'll just say it's a metaphor So I would that that's the only only thing
01:04:06
I could think that they're possibly communicating to you at that point All right, okay, okay
01:04:12
Yeah, I mean I did wonder whether she meant to be like parables or yeah, but no that wasn't
01:04:18
Okay, metaphorically. All right I appreciate thanks.
01:04:23
Thanks for covering All right, probably right now my thinking is that we are going to have to do the program on Monday I fly out on Tuesday It's not till Tuesday evening, but I'm gonna have 16 billion things going on So we'll probably be looking at dividing line on on Monday of next week and then
01:04:45
I've got John Sampson lined up for Thursday and then the following Tuesday and then
01:04:50
I believe we got another Tuesday Thursday that you'll be gone after that for a
01:04:56
Thursday Tuesday really and I'm gonna do those shows Yeah, okay, so I'm going to should we warn a certain person in Texas?
01:05:06
Oh, I I think he listens anyway He's no, I don't think so. I don't think so. But no,
01:05:12
I I will be picking up the cross -examination sections of that particular debate and and moving my way forward, so we've got we've got the fifth and the tenth with John and then the 12th and Maybe the 17th the
01:05:30
I do get back on the 17th. So, okay. All right. Yeah, that works that works Yeah Well, I kind of figured that you wouldn't exactly be landing and then running in here ready to go and I think you actually land early evening anyways
01:05:45
To 240 maybe. Oh, well, there's plenty of time After a little jet lag, no big deal.
01:05:53
Let's do another jet lag dividing line elf Belfast Is he throw heat? Yeah, no big deal
01:06:00
That is assuming all my flights actually. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, who knows where you'll actually wind up.
01:06:05
That's right All righty, so that's what's coming up folks. So next time Monday probably around this time on On Monday is when we'll get together again.