"Cage-Stage Calvinist"

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line Tuesday Morning, we're already starting to make our way through the month of April 2009 passing by quickly once again

Just to remind you that we will be in the Champaign -Urbana area for the debate on the 30th with Dan Barker at the

University of Illinois the Proper information is up There are no debates in Milwaukee those of you who are confused about that But I hope to have some information for you

Maybe by the end of the week as to replacement for that that would be a very exciting please a pray toward that end as well and And Still putting stuff together as far as New Jersey, New York stuff like that goes for June as Well today

I was actually it was yesterday. I rode in the Altura Phoenix on Saturday and So yesterday

I was doing a short ride 22 miles is a short ride just to sort of stretch things out after that rather strong effort on Saturday and Was listening to the debate that took place on the infidel guy radio program webcast whatever terminology is used and It was a debate between Dan Barker and Paul Minata and I found it very interesting and I especially found a number of the comments that Dan Barker made about John -Calvin interesting,

I don't know if those will come up on the 30th or not But I would actually sort of enjoy if they did of course

Barker gave a completely twisted view of what happened with surveyed us Clearly has not done any original reading on that particular subject only secondary sources and bad ones at that and but then in his closing statements

Dan said some Really interesting things and this was definitely one of the most interesting things.

I've I've ever heard Dan Barker say let's let's listen in all you have is ink on a page and then you have different versions of it

In fact, I bet Paul has a I bet Paul respects the King James Version I'm not sure I would have to ask him that one minute and the

King James Version Of course, it's probably one of the worst versions you can use the it's the version that John Calvin used

For example first John 5 7 has this declaration of the Trinity which actually turned out to be an imposter

That verse does not belong in the Bible Christians tampered with the Bible. They contradict each other

They they make incoherent statements first John 5 7 is not a part of the original document and yet I used to preach it in and John Calvin used to preach that John Calvin thought he was preaching the

Word of God He was deceived and you know, maybe I'm deceived in some ways and I'm sure Paul is deceived in some ways as well

Well, definitely definitely Dan is deceived But that one

Is one of those things where I imagine if there's someone observing me as I'm riding along the trail

And they they see me working hard breathing hard and laughing hard. They're probably wondering what the hell, you know the combination there is and So I Just ditched a couple things

In case Dan listens in maybe in preparation for the debate or something like that First of all to my knowledge

John Calvin did not know English So I'm not sure why he would be reading from the

King James Version or preaching from the King James Version secondly, if you look at Calvin's Commentaries he he does comment, of course on first John 5 7 but his first comments are on the fact that there's a textual variant there and That some manuscripts don't contain it.

So he was aware of that situation and but most importantly There's this little problem in that the

King James Version Was translated between 1604 and 1611 and well

John Calvin died in 1564 so So it would it would sort of be historically impossible

For John Calvin the French -speaking and Latin -speaking Reformer of Geneva to have been preaching

From the King James Version of the Bible because it didn't exist yet So that really wouldn't work

I Yeah, so that that would that would cause a little bit of a problem is almost 50 years 47 years after Calvin's death

But the King James came on so I had to I had to chuckle and it sort of fit in with With the things that he had said about Servetus and and how he had completely ignored

What had actually taken place and he called Servetus Calvin's friend he had done this to his friend

As if they were friends Calvin had risked his life Many many years earlier to sneak back into Paris to meet

Servetus to attempt to answer his questions and to be of assistance to him But I don't think that the

Calvin would have viewed surveyed as his friend Especially when he sent him knowing that Michael Villanueva was actually

Miguel Servetus. He sent him the Institute's and Servetus sent them back with with nasty comments written in the margins

That's just generally not how you know friends act and things like that. So I found that rather rather interesting, but anyway

There is there's something I found Very very very interesting in that particular

Situation I just realized right now that I forgot and I apologize to cue up the the rest of the

Contradictions from Dan Barker, so I'm going to get the computer start on that For some reason when you use

Adobe Edition, it takes forever and a day to load files So I'll go ahead and get that thing working on that also this morning after Listening to let's see what

I start off with this morning. I think it finished I think I finished that debate this morning as I recall. I just about destroyed my iPod shuffle today unfortunately the first time it came off of my riding jersey and I was doing everything

I could to keep it from hitting the spokes because I Knew it was gonna happen when that happened, but I failed I had slowed down.

I was slowing down anyways So at least it's still recognizable And I gotta admit it still worked even though, you know it pulled the headsets off and and shot the shot the poor little shuffle out the back of the bike and It's all dented up and scratched up and and everything else, but I picked it up plugged the headsets back in and it was still playing

A regular little thing. It's not in very good shape anymore, but it is a regular little thing so I'll have to find out if it's actually survived its

Trashing on the on the the road today, but I Think I finished that up and then

I started listening to a lecture by Hamsa Yusuf now

Hamsa Yusuf was my recollection is It was either

September 12th or September 13th. I forget which of 2001 was one of the Muslims that met with President George Bush right after the 9 -11 attacks and so he is a very very well -known leading name in the

Islamic community shall we say and So I have a section to play from him as well

Once we clear some of our phone calls that I think you'll find very interesting on the subject of Of Kufr What is a kafar?

What is a an unbeliever? What does that mean in Arabic and some connections to our own faith and How we might dialogue more effectively with Muslims, etc, etc

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number that has already been called and so since I'm Chewing up something on the computer.

I might as well take a phone call while I'm at it Let's talk with Joe all the way over in Dublin, Ireland.

Hello, Joe. How are you? I'm doing good Good Yeah, I'm just calling in really yeah,

I'm really thank God for your ministry It's it's been a blessing to my own walk with the Lord and I thank you very much

Well, really my question is is that I only recently came to the Calvinistic perspective back in October.

Mm -hmm and I'm in a really heavily Arminian church at the moment and I heard you minister before about in a seminar.

I think it was a ancient heresies in the modern -day church About it, you know being cautious as a

Calvinist like a caged Calvinist I suppose I'm just looking for advice on what way to proceed carefully so I don't you know, make any foolish

So you want to avoid being a caged age Calvinist a well, yeah, well look and so I don't like make any mistakes

Like I have some close friends of mine who are pretty open to talking about it, right? But I don't want to make any mistakes where I sort of I don't know feel more damaged

Well, unfortunately, there are many who who don't ask that question and as a result in their their zeal and their excitement

Tend to not join with that zeal and excitement Maturity and wisdom and as a result lose opportunities of speaking about those things at least for a period of time

So I think that's that's an excellent question You know, obviously one of the first Questions that people ask is well if I'm if I'm in a church where I'm one of the only people who who sees this

One of the only people who has thought through these issues of God's sovereignty and man's freedom and the overarching purposes of God and I start

Seeing how the things that we're doing and and the the way that we think is not in line with with scriptural

Precepts, you know, what do I do about that? And and how do I? Handle this this understanding that I've come to see

That has been a part of it's right there in the scriptures it's been there for a long time and it's frustrating to me that people don't see it the way that quote -unquote

I see it and the first thing obviously to keep in mind is the fact that the only reason that you have come to Recognize and appreciate and accept and in fact love the sovereignty of God and the holiness of God and and God's overarching purpose and and and I think really

Part of coming to really understand these things is is a a soul shattering

Recognition not only of my own guilt and and my worthiness of condemnation but the the tremendous condensate con condescension of God in having in eternity past chosen to be

Merciful to me that is not something that makes me better than anyone else That doesn't make me smarter than anyone else

If if God in his grace had not Softened my heart and and revealed these things to me.

I would would never embrace these things and so it's it's It has been well said that the the the most inconsistent sin

For the the Reformed person is one of pride toward anyone else

Who Does not understand these things and has inconsistencies in their theology because we're in essence

Saying well because God has been gracious to me to show me these things that makes me better than someone else in it

And it just it just doesn't fit. So I think as long as there is a real heartfelt spirit born humility in Recognizing those things that's that's a good place to start now in our modern context a lot of people struggle to differentiate between a humility that recognizes that God is the one who has revealed these truths and I'm nobody special for having discovered these things and some type of compromise some type of of Wavering on the truthfulness of these things and given that modern society

Generally frowns upon any firm belief in anything I can see why people have that confusion

But it does take wisdom to see where you draw the line between humbly acknowledging

The fact that it's God's grace. It's led you to understand these things at the same time standing against that which would be in opposition to God's truth and opposition to his glory in opposition to the gospel itself and I think you see in the what we call the hypers the the guys running around the internet that Plague comm boxes and things like that who are constantly condemning every

Armenian on the planet to hell and and So on so forth. I've run into those folks many times myself.

We see in them the the same mirror image lack of humility and lack of balance that we see in the hyper

Armenians who combine Consign all the the Calvinists to hell so The first thing would be humility.

The the second thing would be To recognize that you've only started a journey there's there honestly,

I think In fact, it's it's it's funny Joe that you would call today because Lord willing if I if I get the time today

I don't know that I will but I want to do a video today on the subject of What it means to be a reformed

Baptist the reason being that recently? Roman Catholic apologist

Steve Ray has been promoting some stuff about what it means to be a reformed Baptist and One of the things

I was going to point out in that video if I get around to making it today Is that to be reformed is not simply to hold to?

certain particular Soteriological beliefs that's vitally important.

That's a part of it. But obviously if we start talking about something like Unconditional election there's something that that is based upon It is based upon both the the view of man and the view of God that comes from Scripture and God's sovereignty

God's kingship God's absolute holiness And if we believe those things if we hold to those views

Then they impact they have to impact all of life. I think one of the Sort of disappointing things that has has

I've seen in some churches Over the past 20 -30 years maybe is

A Outward embracing of certain soteriological things that don't have any impact on on the church itself

They don't have any impact upon the worship of the church. They don't have any impact upon how the church deals. For example with death

With tragedy with with all these things Obviously if we believe

Everything that the doctrines of grace tell us then they're going to impact how we live our lives

They're going to impact how we make our decisions. It's it's a It really is a fundamental

Assertion about Godhood and creature hood and what those things mean and putting them in the proper perspective

And so that's going to impact what you think about worship and what worship is to be focused upon it's going to impact what you think about preaching and and and the purpose of preaching and and it really has a a major impact all around and so that's that's something that takes time to to work through and for those things to become convictions in your own heart and in a situation like you're in where You know, it's not an ideal situation to be in a fellowship where obviously you're not being

Encouraged in your studies in those areas, but you're you're being discouraged you're being You know people are coming against you and saying, you know, you know these these things are wrong if that's even happening

I don't know if those those conversations have started yet or not, but yeah, they have

Like one guy who's been a mentor and discipling me in ministry You know

He I told I confessed my convictions to him Right around the time it happened and He's aware.

I'm an evangelist So he said well what's this going to do to your evangelistic zeal to go up and win souls if God has already?

predestined Solomon Etc. And you know So I argue that Charles Spurgeon was the greatest soul winner of his day.

And yeah, he was a five -point, you know Calvinist Mm -hmm, and so I didn't I didn't really what

I respected in putting is his concerns to me I didn't accept that as really valid and Well, and I would

I would just add to that two things a You know that that's very true and the very foundation for bold Witness is a belief that God is the one who saves

I've said many times when we were going out witnessing the Mormons We were the only ones out there doing that sometimes other people would show up but they wouldn't do it year -in year -out like we did for a simple reason that those were hard people to reach and If if you thought that it was up to you to talk them into somehow believing what you were saying

Then people got discouraged very very easily but when you're convinced that God has his elect people in a certain place and it's your job to Deliver to them the message by which he will bring his elect unto faith.

Then you can be very bold. You don't have to Edit the message you don't have to be fearful about it because you can trust

God to save his people and even in the face of great opposition as you would expect

Standing outside the the temple gates of in Salt Lake City Even in the face of many people rejecting what you have to say you can continue to keep doing that Because you know that God's going to honor the the presentation of his word

And it also helps you to understand that there are times when God's Word goes forth not for salvation, but for judgment

I mean, it's there's another reason I think why we we see in in Western culture today

That the Old Testament has become completely ignored How often did the prophets minister did they did they send forth the

Word of God and yet? It was for the judgment of those to whom they were speaking not the salvation of those to whom they were speaking

Sometimes it was both but very often It was just a remnant that was being saved and yet the majority who were mocking the prophet throwing

Jeremiah in the pit Whatever else it might be This was part of God's purpose as well because he was bringing himself glory in the demonstration that even when the natural man

Here's the Word of God. He responds to it in this way unless God in his grace changes the heart and so There's there's that element as well and the other thing

I'd add to that is that if you can talk with a mentor you can talk with someone and answer their objections and Continue to pray for them as as your brother in Christ and direct them to the

Word of God and make sure that that you're not Engaging in this for any type of prideful prideful advantage

That's that causes growth and and that is the way to give a proper testimony for these things as well

So I I don't know honestly It's interesting when

I was in in Scotland the year before last The the pastor of the church where I was speaking

Was from Dublin, but he was over in Scotland. I don't know if he's back yet I got the distinct feeling he'd be going back that direction, but I know that there are our good churches

You know in that area I off the top of my head I'd have to do some inquiries with some some of my friends over in the

UK to get some specific information for you But in my experience, I went through the time where having come these convictions

I was in a church that wasn't consistently opposed to the to the conclusions I had come to the problem was sometimes they were and sometimes they weren't and didn't know it and Given what

I do and and given the nature of my ministry I I just could not handle that eventually it was it was far too great a burden to bear and Eventually the

Lord brought about a release where I was because I'm not I'm not the kind of person that says hey just You know just jump out of whatever church you're in and just you know go church shopping on a whim

I think leaving a church is a major decision. It has to be thought through it's not something to be done on a on a on a snap basis, and I didn't do that in my situation and But the

Lord worked it out to where I was given that release in essence to to go elsewhere, and that's when

I ended up where I've been ever since then for well 20 20 years now and It is a great blessing to be able to gather with like -minded believers who encourage you in in in the faith

And it's eventually it does get tiring to be fighting the battle all the time. It really does A good friend of mine.

He's a pastor in a reformed Baptist Church here here in Dublin, so He's not put any pressure on me to say jump ship or whatever like he's just trying to encourage me and You know he actually warned me that I asked him about the cage

You know the cage stage Calvinist And he he actually seemed to be concerned from the opposite point of view of people that have the right theology

But it doesn't affect anything they do You know that they they don't stand up on the convictions that theology is meant to bring about your life and So he was trying to encourage me and say like You know like it's right to stand up for truth truth, but obviously you have to like I like you said with you need wisdom to you know to To do it in a way that's not going to be destructive to the people around you right right

Yeah, but yeah, I appreciate that and thanks very much for your for your advice and one thing

Say to you actually you know aware that you're debating Dan Barker coming up There's a very interesting debate that you might want to get your hands on if you haven't seen it yet It's with Todd Freel of yes formative way the master radio right very very good

And I have to say I thought that back was quite weak in it for them. You know it's it's quite recent

So well the interesting thing is I was reading Dan's book godless And he goes through various of his debates

And that's one he specifically mentions as one that he feels he did just the just wonderfully well in so it's

One of the reasons I try to avoid a whole lot of discussion of evaluating my own

Debates because you're not really in a position to to do that very well. It's best to let other people

Do that, but he thought he did quite well on in in that debate Yeah, actually I discovered yesterday actually mentions me and godless as well.

Just once from our Tom like us radio debate unfortunately he decided to say that I was wrong about Paul and acts 9 7 acts 22 9 and hearing a voice or not hearing a voice and Obviously he's not seen like letters to a

Mormon elder any of the books that I've written on the subject So I may bring it up and demonstrate that Dan probably should be a little more careful in his

Greek exegesis But other than that it will be a very very interesting notes ways about Into the debate with Todd Freel and Todd Seemed to really go for the fact that you weren't a

Christian During the debate whether some people might question the wisdom of that one way or the other But that seemed to really invoke a lot of angry for an atheist to someone doesn't believe that God exists

He seems to be very passionate about the fact that he wants to convince you that he was yes. Oh, there's no question about that I've heard that many times and and I fully intend to say that the

Christianity that Dan Barker was involved with was a Christianity of emotions Dan Barker remains very emotionally oriented

He's just changed the goals of those emotions, but it was a very emotionally oriented Christianity and it was not the

Christianity That I am representing or I'm presenting at all. So it might it might prove to be a very interesting evening.

We will see All right, thanks Joe. All right. God bless Joe from Dublin, Ireland there.

Ah, yes Did you October October that's

I gotta do it's just a matter of changing the stress on various syllables

Don't touch that microphone dial no indeed Let's go ahead and talk with DJ hi

DJ Hey, dr. White, how are you today? I'm pretty good. Thank you for all the things you guys do.

I had a quick question though I think I was listening. I've been listening to quite a bit of your work recently.

I've recently understood the doctrines of grace for the first time and I've come under that I guess that train wreck of Realization and appreciate appreciate your help in that venue.

I Want to ask you I've heard you say something recently on one of your talks and it might be an old talk But you you mentioned that God gives

Purpose to evil and and I you know in light of the sovereignty of God, I don't see any

Conflict with that anymore, but I was curious and wide of that. What what role does Satan play?

well the the assertion that I that I've made that I think it's is very important is that if you believe that God when he created knew what was going to Take place as a result of his creation

Which classical Christian theism has always affirmed including Arminian classical theism Open theists today are trying to avoid that obviously, but if you if you affirm that Then you either have to believe that God had a purpose in bringing that evil into existence

However, you explain how that happened you can talk about the free will of man all you want But if you affirm that God knew at the moment of creation the evil it was going to exist

You have to answer the question. Did he have a purpose for all that evil? Or is that evil just simply a byproduct that he chose to allow into existence, but he has no purpose for it

The reformed answer is that God has a purpose for all that takes place in his creation

It will all result in his glory And so we may not in this life know what the purpose of every act of evil is but there will be the

Arminian cannot say that the Arminian has to posit this idea of Tons and tons of purposeful purposeless evil that God knew would be the result of his creation but that he brought into existence anyways, and so obviously, then we start talking about either any great evil person a

Hitler or someone like that or if we talk about Angelic beings we talk about Satan then we're talking about secondary causes.

We're talking about Those things that God has chosen to use as means to bring about the fulfillment of his decree and so whether it be

Satan himself or a fallen angel a demon that is

Clearly as Job tells us and as scripture tells us under God's sovereign control but expressing their rebellion against God fully knowledgeable as Jesus taught of their their eventual destruction and The fact that they are under the power of God Fully knowledgeable that that they are not going to quote -unquote win this battle

But just seeking as as we see in sinful men themselves to express their rebellion against God Satan and the others are used as secondary means to accomplish elements of God's decree and If we're asking well, why use secondary means well

God has chosen to do so I don't know that There are certain questions that have really logical answers.

I mean, why did God make the sky blue instead of green? Well, I'm sorry. I can't answer that.

I don't know It's sort of like when people insist upon asking all sorts of questions about what Adam was like before the fall

We don't know we can we can assume a few things But there's only two and a half chapters in the

Bible two and a half three chapters that have anything to do with that time period all they just don't tell us much and It is that insatiable

Desire to go beyond what is written that becomes a danger at that point. So Clearly Satan is presented not only as the enemy of God, but as a symbol of arrogance and rebellion

But he's under the control of God and and he is used by God To accomplish his means even to the final destruction of of that means itself

So if if you don't recognize the sovereignty of God as an absolute then it doesn't that kind of make you into the realm of dualism

Well, let's let's let's be honest about it there's a lot of preaching out there in the evangelicalism

That's quite dualistic and it's quite Gnostic I Think of one pastor that I had once that that explained election like this

He said well God's voted for you and the devil's vote against you and you get to vote the tie -breaking vote and and when you do present the the idea as a inequality of light versus an equality of darkness

God doing all he can Satan doing all he can and and it's sort of up to us to you know

Rush into the divide and and to determine the case It does lead to concepts of dualism where you have battling powers

And and that's where process theology comes along and says we don't know what the outcome is going to be

Or open theism comes along as as well God's gonna win, but it's gonna be a process or and then the

Armenians who just don't really have an answer one way or the Other but yeah, it does tend toward that kind of a a dualistic concept.

No, no two ways about it Well, I certainly appreciate it. I hope you guys keep up the good work. Well, thank you, sir.

Keep praying. All right. God bless. Bye Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

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Hello everyone this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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Thank you And welcome back to The Dividing Line On a

Tuesday morning I've already gotten a number of phone calls in under our belt That gave me plenty of time to re -cue up The debate that Dan Barker did

Where he was going through various alleged Bible contradictions Uses this list a number of times

Obviously going to need to be prepared with quick answers For each one of these particular ones

Not anywhere near a very strong list There are significantly more difficult questions to respond to than these

But again as was mentioned by Joe I believe

In regards to Mr. Barker He does tend to define Christianity Which is fully understandable in light of his own experience

And it was experience It was interesting to listen to the churches he was associated with I mean if you're involved with the

Quakers The Assemblies of God The Charismatics And Catherine Kuhlman All at a brief period of time

But from my perspective That is not a very good recommendation As to your

Christian credentials obviously That is being blown about by every wind of doctrine

And not having a Biblical foundation at all

And that might explain why you think John Calvin preached to King James too But again and I will have to remind him of this

Dan himself described his theological education At Azusa Pacific as that of a glorified

Sunday school And his knowledge of Greek as one who can use a lexicon Well that's okay

That's alright But that's not going to get him around The errors he made in regards to Acts 9 -7 and Acts 22 -9

And the fact that it's not just me But entire Bible translation committees With a hundred times the training that he has

In the Biblical languages That have recognized Not just the syntactical issues

In regards to Fone and Akuo But also the contextual issues

He didn't read any of my books on those subjects But that's okay That's understandable That may come up, may not

We will see Anyway let's go back to the I think this is where we were

If not I'll just skip forward To some of the alleged contradictions That Dan Barker presents

And I may have to hold off on the I look at the time I will probably have to hold off On the discussion of Islam I'm sure there's just many of you

Going oh drat But I do want to say one thing Before I get back to Dan Barker I had a really, really encouraging statement

And I wish I could I hope I remember the next time I see this young man To tell him how encouraging it was

One of the young people from our church Has gone off to college And he came back a few weeks ago

On spring break Or one of the breaks And he caught me and said Oh hey Dr. White I want to tell you something

He said my teacher was talking about Islam And he was asking questions about Islam And I kept answering all these questions about Islam And so finally he said

Have you lived in an Islamic country? And I said no But James White was my adult

Sunday school teacher And really

Other than having played The Shabir Ali debates And discussed some of those things

And of course As we're going through the Synoptic Gospels I'll say things like I'll make mention

If I'm preparing for a debate I really feel for the poor people The Phoenix Reform Baptist Church Back in 2005

They probably got sick and tired of hearing What John Dominic Crossan thought about Every verse we were looking at And I can guarantee you

They didn't have time to get sick and tired Of John Shelby Spong Because I wouldn't even inflict them with that But they do

It's natural If you're studying a particular area It's naturally going to come out in your teaching

It's just And they've been extremely patient with me And so I appreciate that But anyway

It was very encouraging to me That just in the teaching And in making reference to Islam This young man had been very well

From his teacher's perspective Like he had been living in an Islamic country Prepared to understand

Islam And its theology And accurately so That's the important part I think we show respect for others

When we accurately represent What they believe And so That's why I do want to get to Maybe next time around Again, depending on the phone calls

This discussion Because Again, it's Well, you know

I'm talking so much about it Forget it We'll get back to Tan I want you to If you saw the video

That I posted on the blog yesterday You might be given again I only posted it because I think it's important to see

What's going on in Iraq And in the Iraqi educational system If you saw that video

Of an Iraqi college professor Arguing for the earth being flat Seriously Based upon the

Quran The problem with Showing you something like that It's important to recognize that But the problem is

American Christians especially Westerners But American Christians In essence

Who do not have a lot of interaction With Muslims I tend to think Well that's all of them

Because you see these crazed people With AK -47s running around Shooting people And you go Well you know

Is this not representative Well no it's not really There are tremendously

Intelligent Well trained Muslim individuals In the world And you have to be able

To see that range One of the reasons I posted that Is that Can the intellectual

Muslims Withstand the onslaught Of these people That's the question

Does the Quran and the Hadith Provide a foundation For one side over the other

And if it provides the foundation For the wrong side Then how are the Quote unquote moderate Supposed to win

That's one of the things That that brings up But I want you to listen to Certainly one of the

Most intelligent Joe from Ireland Just asked on channel

Is Ahmad Didat any good As an Islamic debater Well he is certainly By far the most famous Islamic debater

But as a scholar He was horrible And there are many

Muslims Who would say that But the vast majority of Muslims View Ahmad Didat as The greatest

Islamic debater Of all time They will repeat his arguments Ad nauseum

Ad infinitum And so you have to know those things But as I said I was listening to this lecture

By Hamza Yusuf And it helped me make a connection I want you to listen to him

Talking about Unbelief You've heard that we are called The kafir The kafir

The unbelievers Listen to what he says About this

And listen carefully To the Arabic term He's talking about Because you should

Actually recognize What it is Even if you've never studied Arabic Think about it

From a Christian perspective You might recognize Listen in Now kafir You'll most often see it

Translated in books As disbelief Kafir is a

Non -believer or a disbeliever That is not a good translation For kufr The Islamic world view

Sees kufr If you look at the root meaning of it It is from a root word

Ka Fa Ra Which means The active participle

In Arabic means a farmer Because what a farmer does Is they cover a seed with dirt

They put a seed into darkness Now the idea there is that Kufr is covering over something

That is the root of it So in a sense Kufr is seen as truth concealing

The truth is concealed The idea there is it's really known

That a person in truth Cannot be a disbeliever From the Islamic perspective

No one can be a disbeliever in truth And the greatest truth concealer

Is Iblis In the Islamic world view And Iblis was one of the closest to God So the idea is that Really this is not about disbelief

This is about concealment This is about hiding or covering up And that's how the

Quranic world view Sees truth In relation to how people respond to it

They will either accept it And that's why they're called acceptors Rather than believers

They will accept it Or they will conceal it Now there are many ways to conceal the truth

And certainly many many Muslims Are truth concealers in reality You see so I can be a

Muslim And here I am doing all my right things and everything But in reality I am concealing the truth

The essence of truth concealing Is ingratitude The human being

A kafir is also called an ingrate The idea is that If God in his bounty

Because the actual idea of sending messengers Is good intention

In other words That God has a good intention Towards his creation

That if God simply created the human being Threw away the manual

And just said work it all out for yourselves And everybody spends their life

In turmoil and darkness And moving out right You like the You know

Mullah Nasruddin Is a character in the Middle East They tell stories about him And one of the stories

Mullah He was in the tavern all night And he goes out in the early morning Wee hours of the morning

And he's wandering around the city Aimlessly The policeman comes up and he says

Mullah What are you doing out at this time? And he said If I knew the answer to that question

I'd be at home in bed The idea is that This is the state of many many people

They're literally wandering around In a drunken stupor And they don't know what they're doing

They don't know what they're doing And there are many many diversions There are many ways to conceal the truth

Rumi talks about The many wines that God has put On this earth

To put people out of their misery He said Jesus was drunk In the love of God And his donkey was high on barley

There's many ways that we can That we can deal with the human condition

Like John Lennon said Whatever gets you through the night There are many people that have that attitude

I'm just gonna get through this Whatever it takes That from a Muslim perspective

Is a type of ingratitude Because the messengers have come They have given people news

They have given people guidance That the guidance is there And that is why the truth concealer

Is the one who is ingrate He's an ingrate because He or she is not accepting that truth

And this is the Muslim view Of looking at these two phenomenon Of how we respond to revelation

Okay, I'll go ahead and stop right there Now, just a couple of things When you think of Kufr You think of someone as a

Kafar Now, that's normally an insult That is normally meant

That's what we're identified Christians are identified as As Kafar We also are

Mushrikim Because they interpret our belief in God As an act of shirk

Shirk is idolatry It is association with Allah And so they view

That's why I did the debate on this subject Which I just realized I was supposed to have the

DVDs of Friday I haven't gotten them yet It's already Tuesday So hopefully get them soon

Of the debates in London We'll let you know As soon as we have them And can reproduce them

And get them available But I did the debate on Whether the Trinity Believe in the Trinity Necessitates shirk

Also did the radio program There in London on that same subject Because they view us as Mushrikim As Kafar Now, two things

Do you recognize Did you hear in the description That he gave The active participle

Meaning a farmer One who covers over Does that ring any bells? Anybody?

Think about it What is the day of atonement? Yom Kippur What does it mean to cover

The mercy seed in the offering blood The blood that is offered Sprinkled upon the mercy seed

Kafar Which means atonement So the tri -literal word

Kafar does mean to cover Isn't it interesting That in Christianity That becomes focused upon God's act of covering

Our sin Through a means That he himself has provided He rejects the human means

Remember that Adam and Eve Covered their nakedness With the fig leaves

But God provides his own covering And in the sacrificial system

Foreshadows the final and perfect covering In the atonement of Jesus Christ Kafar To cover

But the Muslim hears Kafar And interprets it in the context

Of covering over Of knowledge Of the knowledge of Allah Now remember

Muslims believe That we are born as Muslims They believe that Remember I've read the story

A few weeks ago About how In the Hadith You have the story of Adam And God rubs his back

And from Adam comes forth The entirety of the human race And they stand in the plain And a mitak is made

Between God and all of mankind A covenant is made And as a result of this mitak

There is this thing called Fitrah It is our natural nature It is our instinct To recognize there is only one true

God We talked about that a few weeks ago Here on the program You may have slept through it

But again I keep trying to present this stuff And maybe some of it will stick eventually And you'll find it to be useful

So the idea being That we're all Muslim When we are born And then we are led astray By our parents

And by our society Into worship of other gods And so on and so forth Now As you were listening to that I even noticed in the chat channel

As that was going by That people in the chat channel Saw the same thing that I saw

As I was listening to this And as I've been listening to Yasir Qadhi This has come up a number of times

Especially in his discussion Of the subject of the mitak And how man responds to these things

That once again There is a Christian presentation

Of all of this And I don't get the feeling As I listen to these highly educated

Muslim men Now I've been listening to both Yasir Qadhi And Hamza Yusuf Hamza Yusuf is not in the same strain of Islam As Yasir Qadhi In fact he has some

Sufi influence as well And so it's been fascinating To listen to both of them

Basically giving the same lecture In other words This is supposed to be These are the foundations of the faith

They have been very different from one another The only thing that's been really similar Between the two Has been the discussion of Iman The discussion of the jihad

Etc etc Those had similarities But other than that The entire approach has been very very different It's been very interesting to recognize that And very helpful to me

Because again Can you imagine how difficult it is for Muslims To get much of a bead

On where all of us are coming from And our disagreements And arguments about things as well

So it's difficult going the other way as well But hopefully you were thinking about Romans chapter 1

And it's not kafar It's not covering over It is suppression Suppression For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven

Against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men Who by their unrighteousness Suppress the truth

And there you have The participle Katakantos from Kateko Kateko To hold back

To hold fast To hold down And it's descriptive of In unrighteousness

Holding down or suppressing The truth So it is a biblical revelation

That man is actively Not just passively

Not just simply by his The example of those around him Or tradition Or any of these other things

Man is actively involved In suppressing the truth And unrighteousness Now I know that there are some

Pelagians out there And some others Who would look at something Like Romans 1 .18

And they would accept people from it They would say that there are people This is not descriptive of But that is not

Even part of Paul's argument Let alone any type of biblical conclusion What so ever This is what all men do

Whether they do it religiously or not They are suppressing The truth and unrighteousness

You cannot suppress something That you do not already possess You cannot suppress a cough

Without already having the desire To be coughing There is something causing Those spasms in your lungs

And you wish to cough And you are trying to suppress it When you are not sick

You would not say that you are suppressing A cough If you have no desire to do so If you would have to force yourself

To fake it No When you have got a cough You know you have got a cough

We all know what that sensation is like To suppress The truth and unrighteousness

That truth has to be available to you And in a sense That is what he was saying

He was saying that That there is a covering over Of this

This fitra This natural recognition of God's existence Now Paul is significantly

More clear than this In the scriptures In stating that This truth has been

Revealed to all men For what can be known Verse 19 about God Is plain to them

Because God has shown it to them He has made it evident to them God is the one who has made this revelation

Where does this revelation exist What is it about For his invisible attributes Namely his eternal power and divine nature

Have been clearly perceived Ever since the creation of the world And the things that have been made So that they are

Anapologia without an excuse There has been a revelation And there is some discussion

As to whether this revelation is Internal or external only I think it is both I think if we look outward at the creation

Or look inward at ourselves Whether we do so at the conscience Or even today

In a way that would have not been Even in Paul's mind But as we look inwardly

To the organization of the body To the tremendous evidences Of God's existence that we see

In the complexity of the living body That we see God so that And there is a purpose for this revelation

It is not just again You know God doesn't do things without reason So that Aista ainai autous

That is for the purpose That they would be Without an

Apologetic Without a defense For their suppressing The knowledge of God It is there, it is in the revelation around them

It is not a revelation Of every aspect of God's truth Because it says his invisible attributes

His eternal power and divine nature Have been clearly seen Not the trinity and the gospel And all the rest of this stuff

But the fact that God is God And that we owe him thanks as God Is clearly revealed in Scripture And I think it would be

Very Useful Especially for the men that I am listening to To have a little better Knowledge of What came before Muhammad I think they are missing

Some of the strong influence here And they do so because of a presupposition that The Quran, well it is not

Muhammad's thoughts anyways It comes directly from God But I think a lot of Muslims recognize

That the language and the Thought categories are very much Muhammad's And what was influencing him, where was he getting his information

Well I think that He clearly had conversation with some Christians What they believed and how clear they were

Another issue But anyway, wanted to get to that We will pick up with Dan Barker's alleged biblical contradictions

And your phone calls On the next edition of The Dividing Line This Thursday, see you then, God bless