"Cage-Stage Calvinist"

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Calvin, Cervetus, and Dan Barker on the King James Version

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. Tuesday Morning, we're already starting to make our way through the month of April 2009 passing by quickly once again just to remind you that We will be in the Champaign-Urbana area for the debate on the 30th with Dan Barker at the University of Illinois the Proper information is up.

There are no debates in Milwaukee those of you who are confused about that. But I hope to have some information for you maybe by the end of the week as to Replacement for that that would be a very exciting.

Please a pray toward that end as well. And Still putting stuff together as far as New Jersey, New York stuff like that goes for June as. Well today I was actually it was yesterday. I rode in the Altura Phoenix on Saturday and So yesterday I was doing a short ride 22 miles is a short ride just to sort of stretch things out after that rather strong effort on Saturday and Was listening to the debate that took place on the infidel guy radio program webcast whatever terminology is used and It was a debate between Dan Barker and Paul Minata and I found it very interesting and I especially found a number of the comments that Dan Barker made about John-Calvin interesting.

I don't know if those will come up on the 30th or not. But I would actually sort of enjoy it if they did of course Barker gave a completely twisted view of what happened with Cervetus. Clearly has not done any original reading on that particular subject only secondary sources and bad ones at that and but then in his closing statement Dan said some really interesting things and this was definitely one of the most interesting things I've I've ever heard.

Dan Barker say let's let's listen in. All you have is ink on a page and then you have different versions of it. In fact, I bet Paul has a. I bet Paul respects the King James Version. I'm not sure I would have to ask him that one minute.

And the King James Version Of course is probably one of the worst versions you can use. The it's the version that John Calvin used. For example first John 5 7 has this declaration of the Trinity which actually turned out to be an imposter.

That verse does not belong in the Bible. Christians tampered with the Bible. They contradict each other. They they make incoherent statements. First John 5 7 is not a part of the original document. And yet I used to preach it in and John Calvin used to preach that John Calvin thought he was preaching the Word of God.

He was deceived and you know, maybe I'm deceived in some ways and I'm sure Paul is deceived in some ways as well.

Well, definitely definitely Dan is deceived. But that one Is one of those things where I imagine if there's someone observing me as I'm riding along the trail. And they they see me working hard breathing hard and laughing hard.

They're probably wondering what the hell, you know the combination there is and So I Just ditched a couple things In case Dan listens in maybe in preparation for the debate or something like that. First of all to my knowledge John Calvin did not know English.

So I'm not sure why he would be reading from the King James Version or preaching from the King James Version secondly, if you look at Calvin's Commentaries he he does comment, of course on first John 5 7 but his first comments are on the fact that there's a textual variant there and That some manuscripts don't contain it so he was aware of that situation and but most importantly There's this little problem in that the King James Version Was translated between 1604 and 1611 and well John Calvin died in 1564.

So so it would it would sort of be historically impossible For John Calvin the French-speaking and Latin-speaking Reformer of Geneva to have been preaching From the King James Version of the Bible because it didn't exist yet.

So that really wouldn't work. Yeah, so that that would that would cause a little bit of a problem is almost 50 years 47 years after Calvin's death. But the King James came on so I had to I had to chuckle and it sort of fit in with With the things that he had said about Cervetus and and how he had completely ignored What had actually taken place and he called Cervetus Calvin's friend.

He had done this to his friend as if they were friends. Calvin had risked his life Many many years earlier to sneak back into Paris to meet Cervetus to attempt to answer his questions and to be of assistance to him.

But I don't think that the Calvin would have viewed Cervetus as his friend especially when he sent him knowing that Michael Villanueva was actually Miguel Cervetus he sent him the Institute's and Cervetus sent them back with with nasty comments written in the margins.

That's just generally not how you know friends act and things like that. So I found that rather rather interesting, but anyway There's there's something I found Very very very interesting in that particular Situation.

I just realized right now that I forgot and I apologize to cue up the the rest of the Contradictions from Dan Barker, so I'm gonna get the computer start on that. For some reason when you use Adobe edition it takes Forever and a day to load files, so I'll go ahead and get that thing working on that also this morning after Listening to let's see what I start off with this morning.

I think I finished I think I finished that debate this morning as I recall I just about destroyed my iPod shuffle today unfortunately the first time it came off of my riding jersey and I was doing everything I could to keep it from hitting the spokes because I Knew it was gonna happen when that happened, but I failed.

I had slowed down. I was slowing down anyway, so at least It's still recognizable and I gotta admit it still worked even though you know it pulled the headsets off and and shot the shot the poor little shuffle out the back of the bike and It's all dented up and scratched up and and everything else.

But I picked it up plugged the headsets back in and it was still playing a regular little thing. It's not in very good shape anymore, but it is a regular little thing so I'll have to find out if it's actually survived its trashing on the on the the road today, but I think I finished that up, and then I started listening to a lecture by Hamza Yusuf now Hamza Yusuf was my recollection is.

It was either September 12th or September 13th. I forget which of 2001 was one of the Muslims that met with President George Bush right after the 9 -11 attacks, and so he is a very very well-known leading name in the Islamic community shall we say and So I have a section to play from him as well.

Once we clear some of our phone calls that I think you'll find very interesting on the subject of Kufr, what is a kafar? What is a an unbeliever? What does that mean in Arabic and some connections to our own faith and How we might dialogue more effectively with Muslims etc. Etc.

8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number that has already been called. And so since I'm queuing up something on the computer. I might as well take a phone call while I'm at it. Let's talk with Joe all the way over in Dublin, Ireland.

Hello, Joe. How are you? I'm doing good. So you want to avoid being a caged age Calvinist day. Well unfortunately there are many who who don't ask that question and as a result in their their zeal and their excitement.

Tend to not join with that zeal and excitement Maturity and wisdom and as a result lose opportunities of speaking about those things at least for a period of time. So I think that's that's an excellent question.

You know, obviously one of the first Questions that people ask is well if I'm if I'm in a church where I'm one of the only people who who sees this. One of the only people who has thought through these issues of God's sovereignty and man's freedom and the overarching purposes of God and I start Seeing how the things that we're doing and and the the way that we think is not in line with with scriptural Precepts, you know, what do I do about that?

And and how do I? Handle this this understanding that I've come to see. That has been a part of it's right there in the scriptures. It's been there for a long time and it's frustrating to me that people don't see it the way that quote-unquote I see it and the first thing obviously to keep in mind is the fact that the only reason that you have come to Recognize and appreciate and accept and in fact love the sovereignty of God and the holiness of God and and God's overarching purpose and and and I think really Part of coming to really understand these things is is a a soul shattering Recognition not only of my own guilt and and my worthiness of condemnation but the the tremendous condensate con condescension of God in having in eternity past chosen to be Merciful to me that is not something that makes me better than anyone else.

That doesn't make me smarter than anyone else. If if God in his grace had not Softened my heart and and revealed these things to me. I would would never embrace these things and so it's it's It has been well said that the the the most inconsistent sin.

For the the Reformed person is one of pride toward anyone else.

Who.

Does not understand these things and has inconsistencies in their theology because we're in essence Saying well because God has been gracious to me to show me these things that makes me better than someone else and it and it Just it just doesn't fit.

So I think as long as there is a a real heartfelt spirit born humility in Recognizing those things that's that's a good place to start now in our modern context a lot of people struggle to differentiate between a humility that recognizes that God is the one who is Revealed these truths and I'm nobody special for having discovered these things and some type of compromise some type of of Wavering on the truthfulness of these things and given that modern society generally Frowns upon any firm belief in anything I can see why people have that confusion.

But it does take wisdom to see where you draw the line between humbly acknowledging The fact that it's God's grace. It's led you to understand these things at the same time standing against that which would be in opposition to God's truth and opposition to his glory in opposition to the gospel itself and I think you see in the what we call the hypers the the guys running around the internet that plague comm boxes and things like that who are Constantly condemning every Armenian on the planet to hell and and so on so forth.

I've run into those folks many times myself. We see in them the the same mirror image lack of humility and lack of balance that we see in the hyper Armenians who combine Consign all the the Calvinists to hell so The first thing would be humility.

The the second thing would be To recognize that you've only started a journey. There's there honestly, I think in fact, it's it's it's funny Joe that you would call today because Lord willing if I if I get the time today, I don't know that I will but I want to do a video today on the subject of What it means to be a reformed Baptist the reason being that recently?

Roman Catholic apologist Steve Ray has been promoting some stuff about What it means to be a reformed Baptist and one of the things I was going to point out in that video If I get around to making it today Is that to be reformed is not simply to hold to certain particular Soteriological beliefs that's vitally important.

That's a part of it. But obviously if we start talking about something like Unconditional election there's something that that is based upon it is based upon both the the view of man and the view of God that comes from Scripture and God's sovereignty God's kingship God's absolute holiness and If we believe those things if we hold to those views then they impact they have to impact all of life I think one of the Sort of disappointing things that has has I've seen in some churches over the past 20 30 years maybe is.

A.

Outward embracing of certain soteriological things that don't have any impact on on the church itself. They don't have any impact upon the worship of the church. They don't have any impact upon how the church deals.

For example with death. With tragedy with with all these things. Obviously if we believe everything that the doctrines of grace tell us then they're going to impact how we live our lives. They're going to impact how we make our decisions.

It's it's a It really is a fundamental Assertion about Godhood and creaturehood and what those things mean and putting them in the proper perspective and so that's going to impact what you think about worship and what worship is to be focused upon it's going to impact what you think about preaching and and the purpose of preaching and and it really has a a major impact all around and so that's that's something that takes time to to work through and For those things to become convictions in your own heart and in a situation like you're in where You know, it's not an ideal situation to be in a fellowship where obviously you're not being Encouraged in your studies in those areas, but you're you're being discouraged you're being.

You know people are coming against you and saying, you know, you know, these these things are wrong if that's even happening. I don't know if those conversations have started yet or not, but Well, and I would I would just add to that two things a You know that that's very true and the very foundation for bold Witness is a belief that God is the one who saves.

I've said many times when we were going out witnessing the Mormons. We were the only ones out there doing that sometimes other people would show up but they wouldn't do it year in year out like we did for a simple reason that those were hard people to reach and If if you thought that it was up to you to talk them into somehow believing what you were saying.

Then people got discouraged very very easily but when you're convinced that God has his elect people in a certain place and it's your job to Deliver to them the message by which he will bring his elect unto faith.

Then you can be very bold. You don't have to Edit the message you don't have to be fearful about it because you can trust God to save his people and even in the face of great opposition as you would expect standing outside the the temple gates of in Salt Lake City.

Even in the face of many people rejecting what you have to say you can continue to keep doing that. Because you know that God's going to honor the the presentation of his word. And it also helps you to understand that there are times when God's Word goes forth not for salvation but for judgment.

I mean, it's there's another reason I think why we we see in in Western culture today. That the Old Testament has become completely ignored. How often did the prophets minister did they did they send forth the Word of God and yet?

It was for the judgment of those to whom they were speaking not the salvation of those to whom they were speaking. Sometimes it was both but very often It was just a remnant that was being saved and yet the majority who were mocking the Prophet throwing Jeremiah in the pit.

Whatever else it might be. This was part of God's purpose as well because he was bringing himself glory in the demonstration that even when the natural man Here's the Word of God. He responds to it in this way unless God in his grace changes the heart and so There's there's that element as well and the only other thing I'd add to that is that if you can talk with a mentor you can talk with someone and answer their objections and Continue to pray for them as as your brother in Christ and direct them to the Word of God and make sure that.

That you're not engaging in this for any type of private prideful advantage. That's that causes growth and and that is the way to give a proper testimony for these things as well. So I I don't know honestly.

It's interesting when I was in in Scotland the year before last. The the pastor of the church where I was speaking Was from Dublin, but he was over in Scotland. I don't know if he's back yet I got the distinct feeling he'd be going back that direction, but I know that there are our good churches.

You know in that area I off the top of my head I'd have to do some inquiries with some some of my friends over in the UK to get some specific information for you. But in my experience, I went through the time where having come these convictions I was in a church that wasn't consistently opposed to the to the conclusions I had come to the problem was sometimes they were and sometimes they weren't and didn't know it and Given what I do and and given the nature of my ministry I I just could not handle that eventually it was it was far too great a burden to bear and Eventually the Lord brought about a release where I was because I'm not I'm not the kind of person that says hey just.

You know just jump out of whatever church you're in and just you know go church shopping on a whim. I think leaving a church is a major decision. It has to be thought through it's not something to be done on a on a on a snap basis, and I didn't do that in my situation and.

But the Lord worked it out to where I was given that release in essence to to go elsewhere, and that's when I ended up where I've been ever since then for well 20 20 years now and It is a great blessing to be able to gather with like-minded believers who encourage you in in in the faith.

And it's eventually it does get tiring to be fighting the battle all the time. It really does. You know right right.

Yeah.

Yes.

Radio right.

Very very good well the interesting thing is I was reading Dan's book godless. And he goes through various of his debates. And that's one he specifically mentions as one that he feels he did just the just wonderfully well in so it's one of the reasons I try to avoid a whole lot of discussion of evaluating my own Debates because you're not really in a position to to do that very well.

It's best to let other people Do that, but he thought he did quite well on in in that debate. He actually I discovered yesterday actually mentions me in godless as well. Just once from our Tom like us radio debates unfortunately he decided to say that I was wrong about Paul and acts 9 7 acts 22 9 and hearing a voice or not hearing a voice and Obviously he's not seen like letters to a Mormon elder any of the books that I've written on the subject.

So I may bring it up and demonstrate that Dan probably should be a little more careful in his Greek exegesis. But other than that it will be a very very interesting no two ways about. Yes, oh, there's no question about that.

I've heard that many times and and I fully intend to say that the The Christianity that Dan Barker was involved with was a Christianity of emotions. Dan Barker remains very emotionally oriented. He's just changed the goals of those emotions, but it was a very emotionally oriented Christianity, and it was not the Christianity That I am representing or I'm presenting at all so it might it might prove to be a very interesting evening.

We will see Joe from Dublin Ireland there. Ah yes. Did you October October. That's I gotta do. It's just a matter of changing the stress on various syllables. Don't touch that microphone dial. No indeed.

The Sovereignty of God, Humility, and Reformed Baptist Identity

Let's go ahead and talk with DJ hi DJ.

Hey, dr. White. How are you today? I'm pretty good. Thank you for all the things you guys do. I had a quick question though I think I was listening. I've been listening to quite a bit of your work recently.

I've recently understood the doctrines of grace for the first time and I've come under that I guess that train wreck of Realization and I appreciate appreciate your help in that venue. I want to ask you.

I've heard you say something recently on one of your talks. And it might be an old talk, but you you mentioned that God gives Purpose to evil and and I you know in light of the sovereignty of God. I don't see any Conflict with that anymore, but I was curious and wide of that what what role does Satan play?

Well.

The the assertion that I that I've made that I think it is very important is that if you believe that God when he created knew what was going to Take place as a result of his creation. Which classical Christian theism has always affirmed including Arminian classical theism.

Open theists today are trying to avoid that obviously, but if you if you affirm that. Then you either have to believe that God had a purpose in bringing that evil into existence. However, you explain how that happened you can talk about the free will of man all you want.

But if you affirm that God knew at the moment of creation the evil it was going to exist. You have to answer the question. Did he have a purpose for all that evil? Or is that evil just simply a byproduct that he chose to allow into existence, but he has no purpose for it.

The reformed answer is that God has a purpose for all that takes place in his creation. It will all result in his glory. And so we may not in this life know what the purpose of every act of evil is but there will be the Arminian cannot say that the Arminian has to posit this idea of Tons and tons of purposeful purposeless evil that God knew would be the result of his creation but that he brought into existence anyways, and so obviously, then we start talking about either any great evil person a Hitler or someone like that or if we talk about Angelic beings we talk about Satan then we're talking about secondary causes.

We're talking about Those things that God has chosen to use as means to bring about the fulfillment of his decree and so whether it be Satan himself or a fallen angel a demon that is Clearly as Job tells us and as scripture tells us under God's sovereign control but expressing their rebellion against God fully knowledgeable as Jesus taught of their their eventual destruction and The fact that they are under the power of God.

Fully knowledgeable that that they are not going to quote-unquote win this battle. But just seeking as as we see in sinful men themselves to express their rebellion against God. Satan and the others are used as secondary means to accomplish elements of God's decree and If we're asking well, why use secondary means well God has chosen to do so I don't know that.

There are certain questions that have really logical answers. I mean, why did God make the sky blue instead of green? Well, I'm sorry. I can't answer that. I don't know. It's sort of like when people insist upon asking all sorts of questions about what Adam was like before the fall.

We don't know we can we can assume a few things. But there's only two and a half chapters in the Bible two and a half three chapters that have anything to do with that time period all they just don't tell us much and It is that insatiable Desire to go beyond what is written that becomes a danger at that point.

So Clearly Satan is presented not only as the enemy of God, but as a symbol of arrogance and rebellion. But he's under the control of God and and he is used by God To accomplish his means even to the final destruction of of that means itself.

Well, let's let's let's be honest about it there's a lot of preaching out there in evangelicalism. That's quite dualistic and it's quite Gnostic. I Think of one pastor that I had once that that explained election like this.

He said well God's voted for you and the devil's vote against you and you get to vote the the tie-breaking vote. And and when you do present the the idea as a inequality of light versus an equality of darkness.

God doing all he can Satan doing all he can and and it's sort of up to us to you know. Rush into the divide and and to determine the case. It does lead to concepts of dualism where you have battling powers and and.

That's where process theology comes along and says we don't know what the outcome is going to be. Or open theism comes along as as well. God's gonna win, but it's gonna be a process or. And then the Armenians who just don't really have an answer one way or the other.

But yeah, it does tend toward that kind of a a dualistic concept. No, no two ways about it.

Well, I certainly appreciate it, I hope you guys keep up the good work, well, thank you sir. Keep praying for us.

All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. We're gonna take our break and be right back right after this.

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Romans 1, Kufr, and the Suppression of the Truth

And we'll go back to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Already gotten a number of phone calls in under our belt I gave me plenty of time to requeue up the debate that Dan Barker did where he was going through.

Various alleged Bible Contradictions uses this list a number of times obviously going to need to be Prepared with quick answers for each one of these particular ones. Not not anywhere near a very strong list there are significantly more difficult questions to respond to than these but.

Again.

As was mentioned by Joe, I believe In regards to mr. Barker. He does tend to define Christianity, which is fully understandable in light of his own experience and It was experience. It was interesting to listen to the churches.

He was associated with I mean if you're if you're involved with the Quakers The Assemblies of God the Charismatics and Catherine Kuhlman Period time. From my perspective That is not a very good recommendation.

As to your your Christian credentials, obviously that is being blown about by every wind of doctrine and not having a biblical Foundation at all and that might explain why you think John Calvin preaching to King James, too.

But but again, and I will have to remind him of this Dan himself described his theological education At Azusa Pacific as that of a glorified Sunday school and his knowledge of Greek as one who can use a lexicon.

Well, that's okay, that's that's alright, but that's.

Not.

Not gonna get him around the errors. He made in regards to X 97 X 22 9 and the fact is not just me but entire Bible translation committees. With a hundred times the training that he has in the biblical languages that have recognized not just the syntactical issues in regards to Fonet and a kuo.

But also the contextual issues. He didn't read any of my books on those subjects, but that's okay. That's that's understandable. That may come up may not we'll see. We will we will see. Anyway, let's go back to the.

I Think this is where we were if not, I'll just skip forward to some of the alleged contradictions that Dan Barker presents and I may have to hold off on the and I look at the time I will probably have to hold off on the discussion of Islam.

I'm sure there's just many of you's going. Oh drat. But I do want to say one thing before I get back to Dan Barker. I Had a really really encouraging statement and I I wish I could. I hope I remember the next time I see this young man to tell him how encouraging it was.

One of the young people from our church has gone off to college and he came back a few weeks ago on spring break or some one of the breaks and He caught me said oh, hey, dr I don't want to tell you something.

He said my teacher was talking about Islam and he was asking questions about Islam and I kept answering all these questions about Islam. And so finally he said have you lived in Islamic country and I said no, but James White was my adult Sunday school teacher.

So and and really other than having played the Shabir Ali debates and discussed some of those things and of course. You know as we're going through the synoptic Gospels, I'll say things like You know, I'll make mention.

If I'm preparing for a debate or something, you know, I really feel for the poor people the future foreign Baptist Church. They back in 2005. They probably got sick and tired of hearing what John Dominic Crossand thought about every verse we were looking at and I can guarantee you they didn't have time to get sick and tired of John Shelby Spong because I wouldn't even inflict them with that.

But but they do, you know, it's it's natural if you're studying a particular area. It's naturally could come out in your teaching it's just you know, and they've been extremely patient with me and So I appreciate that.

But anyway, it was very encouraging to me that just in the teaching and in making reference to Islam. This young man had been very well from his teachers perspective. Like he had been living in an Islamic country prepared to understand Islam and in its theology and accurately so that's the important part.

I think we show respect for others when we accurately represent What they believe and so that's why I do want to get to and maybe next time around again, depending on the phone calls this discussion it is because again, it's.

Well, you know, I'm talking so much about it. Forget it. I want you to if you saw the Video that I post on the blog yesterday. You might be given again I only posted it because I think it's important to see what's going on in Iraq and in the in the Iraqi educational system.

If you saw that that video of an Iraqi college professor arguing for the earth being flat Seriously based upon the Quran. The the problem with showing you something like that. It's important to recognize that but the problem is American Christians, especially.

Westerners.

But American Christians in essence who do not have a lot of interaction with Muslims Tend to think that's all of them because you see these crazed people. They came 47s running around shooting people and and you go well, you know, is this not representative?

Well, no, it's not really. There are tremendously intelligent well-trained Muslim individuals in the world and you have to be able to see that range one of the reasons I posted that is that can the intellectual Muslims Withstand the onslaught of these people.

That's the question does the Quran and the Hadith provide a Foundation for one side over the other and if it provides the foundation for the wrong side Then how are the quote-unquote moderate supposed to win?

That's one of the things that the that brings up, but I want you to listen to. Certainly one of the most intelligent Joe from from Ireland just asked and channel is Akhmed didot any good as an Islamic debater?