Radio Free Geneva Discussion with John Samson

And welcome to Radio Free Geneva on a Tuesday morning here on The Dividing Line, a mega edition of The Dividing Line today.

Two solid hours, I'm not sure how solid they'll be, but two hours anyways, of, I'm not going to say the best in podcasting because that would be arrogant, and I'm not really trying to follow after certain people like Rush Limbaugh.

But anyways, hopefully you'll enjoy it anyhow. Today, a banner day on Radio Free Geneva, because we have reviewed many people on Radio Free Geneva before.

This is the first time we've actually had one of them brave enough to show up. Yes, show up to the studio for Radio Free Geneva.

And not only that, but what really makes it amazing is that the person with such bravery, such chutzpah, is

British, which is amazing. Sitting right next to me in the studio within arm's reach, yep, yep, definitely arm's reach, both of us can hit the other one at any point in time, is the infamous

Silly Brit 2, John Sampson. Hello, John. Hello, sir. Good to be with you. Here in this underground bunker, which no one can find.

No, it was a long ways down in that elevator, wasn't it? And the special code word we had to give you, and it was very difficult because you're

British. No, I can hold some things, you know. I know some things others don't. How to find you.

That's good, that's good. Can Brits actually pronounce that word? No, I don't think they can. It's sort of a shibboleth for them. Brits can't say it.

Besides that, it doesn't have a U in it, an extra U, because they keep trying to stick that in there. That's why they can't get through the secret doors, because it keeps misspelling color, and honor, and savior, and everything else.

But anyways, John Sampson, why in the world would we have you here, other than, well, you've...

I'm happy to find out. You just told me to show up. I just told you to show up, because you do have a blog called

Effectual Grace, right? Yes. Effectual Grace. And believe it or not, despite the fact you keep sending me emails with links to your blog, and I keep telling you,

I already subscribed. I've been a good boy. I've been a good boy. It's two months since my last...

Hey, did you see... Yes, I did. It's the first thing I do in the morning, okay? I listen,

I look at my RSS feeds. It's there. I see it. Okay. It doesn't mean I read it, but I see it.

It's there. That's the problem with RSS feeds, is there's too much to catch up on. But a little while back, you mentioned...

You actually didn't tell me about this until you were getting toward the end of the book. So how long had you been working on this book?

Probably three or four months. Three or four months. That's not too long. Not too long. It only took me four months to do the

King James Only controversy. That was back when I didn't have anything else to do. Now I can't get anything written for Love, Normani.

I mean, I got eight pages written in the new Muslim book last night, and that was only one half of the first third of the chapter.

So it's just sort of like... The problem was I thought I'd finished, and six weeks later, I was still working on it. Oh, I know. I know.

Life just keeps getting in the way. But we're talking about a book called Twelve Whatabouts, Answering Common Objections Concerning God's Sovereignty in Election.

It is an e -book available at Monergism Books, if you go to Monergism. If you can spell monergism, that means you're already reformed, which is a good thing.

That's sort of how they hide themselves from everybody else, is that no one else knows what monergism means. And it's an e -book available from Monergism, which means it's in either

Kindle or EPUB. Now, that Kindle is a Moby format. Do you know much about that stuff?

I know nothing. You know nothing at all. Do you even have a Kindle? No. I can't even read my own book.

That's good. That's good. All right. Boy, that's marketing for you. But people tell me it's okay.

Well, that's what we're here to talk about. You're not really certain about this yet, but anyway.

So anyhow, 12 Whatabouts. I counted more than 12 chapters, though.

Yeah. I deal with a number of concepts I think we should have in place before we get to those.

And I spent some chapters, for instance, on the love of God. I spent two chapters on that.

Right. So really, the 12 is more of a... There are 12 Whatabouts. Yeah, but there's sort of more than that, aren't there?

I want to give you value for money. The whopping four books that people...

They use the T and the T and the T. I guess if you had some other number in there, then it wouldn't really work out.

Yeah. It's a sovereign thing. It is. Okay. All right. So why a book answering questions?

Didn't I answer all of them in the Potter's Review? Yes. I found that there's really a unique purpose in my mind, at least, as to why

I would go about it in that I think there's nothing out there that I could put in people's hands with a quick overview.

Well, they still have to have a Kindle to put in their hands. Yeah, that is true. I'd pick up the Kindle. But so many people would not read a book as lengthy as The Potter's Freedom, I found.

And so I wanted to write something that was... Especially British people? Yes. Yes, sadly. But I wanted to put in pastors' hands, in anyone who's teaching on the subject, something that would say,

I know you might have issues with this. If they're a Christian, if they've been a long -established Christian, normally, folk who are off the street, who are newly converted, you can just tell them what the

Bible says. But for those with traditions, they do have to work through some things. In my own process of working through them,

I thought it could be helpful to people if we put all of them together, the main ones, and say, hey, this is what this book is about.

Is your question about the love of God or the will of man or certain texts of Scripture? And just put it in one place as really something that would inform them.

Right, right. I actually listened to the book.

You were kind enough to send it to me. And then I did my magical thing where I convert that into an mp3.

You're technically advanced. I don't know how you do it. And then listened to it while riding South Mountain, which is...

So some parts... And I was praying for me, for you. You kept telling me you were going to be listening. And I was hoping you wouldn't end up in a ditch.

Well, there aren't too many ditches on South Mountain. There are lots of cliffs. So being in a ditch would be fine.

Over the cliff is the end of that. So there were some times where I was going 34 miles per hour down a technical hill.

And that sort of impacts how you listen to things, I guess, probably. But I did hear the word tradition a lot.

You had to challenge that. That's one of the biggest things you have to get around, isn't it?

Very much so. And it was painful for myself because I haven't always embraced the doctrines of grace at all.

And I thought I had a fairly sound understanding of scripture, was pastoring. And as I describe in the book, the flyer came in the mail from Ligonier Ministries.

This was in the year 2000 to say... 2000? That was like yesterday. Yeah, I know. I remember yesterday.

All my troubles seem so far away. Beatles. They were Brits too, weren't they?

They were back on the right thing. But I really had a deep respect for Dr.

Sproul. But my heart sank when I heard and I saw what he was going to be talking about. How can you listen to R .C.

Sproul and not have heard all that stuff? Because I'd heard enough to be impressed about the subject of the holiness of God.

And I hadn't gone further. I hadn't really heard much more. And so he was going to be talking on this. And my heart sank.

I thought, well, why would someone of that caliber... I did respect him as a theologian. Why would he be coming all the way from Florida to Scottsdale to talk about something that is well past its sell -by date?

People got over this in the last millennium. Why is he bringing it into the new one? And I was in two minds whether to go.

In fact, another brother in the church was going to go. He liked Dr. Sproul. And he chickened out on the last day as well.

And so it was doubly hard to get there. And eventually I was going back and forth.

And I thought I would go. But I'd sat on the back row so I could leave early. Because I just didn't want to hear this screwball argument about what certain historical figures had embraced.

And I had no desire for that. But I was in shock and awe when, after the first session, there was nothing

I could dispute. Because he was going to the text of Scripture and looking at it in context. And it was really an alarming session.

Because I realized I was in trouble. Because he was quoting Scriptures that I would have quoted.

And explaining them. And then saying, we're going to have a question and answer time where we go further.

And I thought, well, I'll stay for that. And they were dealing with certain texts like 2 Peter 3 and 9.

Or 72 for a minute. They did the whole thing. John 3, 6, all of those things. And he was even laughing as to which question would come up first.

And I thought, you mean he's going to deal with that? That's a big argument against him, isn't it?

Why would he even bring... And when he went to the text of Scripture and in three or four minutes dealt with it in a way that showed me

I'd only had a shallow understanding. I was in shock. I was stunned.

And if anyone could have put a camera on me, it would not have been good on Facebook, YouTube, anywhere.

I was in trouble. And I knew it. I knew it. Now, was that in Scottsdale Bible? Yes, it was. That's where he normally ended up out there, yeah.

So, he hits you up now. So, where were you before that? Were you just sort of...

Do you want the truth? Well, no. But I mean, when you say you had...

You said in the book that you were familiar with these texts. And you just sort of feel like, well, those guys over there just don't read these.

They don't pay attention to these. You had never really heard a meaningful response. It's strange. I was at a Bible college in England.

And though the lecturers embraced Reformed theology, they didn't teach it. We knew where they stood.

It came out on occasion. But in the sense of they never had a two or three hour session on, let's explain the doctrines of grace.

And I would listen to them and think, why do they put that bias on things? And because they never did that,

I was left in ignorance and thought I knew what Reformed theology was. I had enough respect, which some people don't, to say, well, there's obviously reasons why they believe this.

But I just never pursued it. And I was kind of blissful in my ignorance, just thinking, well, just get out with the gospel.

And in this whole process, what really stunned me, which I didn't share in the book, was my father.

I had a phone conversation with him. And he is an out and out. He was an out and out evangelist.

And he used to go to the center of the city and preach, and was louder than the town crier.

They actually had one in the city of Chester. And everything had to stop when he started preaching.

And he had this... I never saw anyone come to the house without him sharing the gospel. Very passionately evangelistic.

And it was about a month after I went and saw Dr. Sproul and began this investigation. It took about a year,

I'm sad to say, to unveil my traditions. But he asked me in the course of a conversation,

John, are you a Calvinist? And he'd never asked me that. And I'd been in ministry 20 years or whatever it was, or almost.

Well, 15 or so. And I said, no, not that I know of. And he said, you'll love this,

James, you believe the Bible, don't you? And I said, Dad, you're reformed.

He says, I'm passionately reformed. I'm a strong Calvinist. I said, you've never mentioned it. He says,

I don't think I need to. The Bible speaks for itself. And that shocked me and stunned me. Yeah, it stunned me.

And it's funny, after I'd come to understand some of these things, he had another conversation.

I said, we had conversations about how many points are you embracing now? And it was one, then one and a half, then two.

And eventually when I said, look, I see you can't just believe one. It's either all or nothing.

He said, good, you believe the Bible now. He said, now forget it and go out and evangelize.

It's interesting. That was his reaction. He said, you embrace that? Good. Now get out and preach.

Interesting, interesting. So you put all this together. And now

I know that you've been answering questions and stuff on your blog. Is that where you were drawing a lot of the sort of look at what people are asking?

2005, John Hendricks, who wrote the forward, asked me to join him writing on the reformationtheology .com

blog. And it's been interesting as a process to field some of the questions that you do get from people.

You write something and then you're immediately challenged. And you need to know why you believe what you're spouting out on the internet.

So that's been a process. In fact, it was John Hendricks, who I've never met in real life, who

I consider a friend, who encouraged me. He said, look, you've put some of these things together over the years.

Why don't you write something that really addresses this? And he was instrumental and encouraged me to go about it.

Interesting. So what kind of response have you gotten so far? It's been about a week and very favorable.

Very favorable. People are saying, in fact, one man said it's the book he wished was placed in his hands as a young Christian.

It answered so many questions for him. And I'm hoping that that'll be the case for people the world over.

That they'll say, there's a little book out there. It's not a huge thing. It's not something that's going to take monumental amounts of time to work through.

But there's something out there that addresses the concerns and the objections that are naturally raised that come from really the traditions of men.

And as you mentioned in the former question, tradition is such a strong thing that for people, it might as well be the

Bible. Because they think when you're challenging their tradition, it is the Bible you're challenging. Oh, yeah. There's no two ways about it.

Unfortunately, my experience is most folks who have those traditions don't realize they have traditions in the first place.

And I did get a few quotes in the book. Oh, my. Sproul got the lion's share.

But I did get quoted a few times in the book. And I think that was one of them, as I recall. Something about he who denies he has any traditions is a slave to them or something along those lines.

Well, that's the end of the story. I only shared the kind of initial process of the Sproul conference. But it was really, as I investigated more, you came into the scene in my mind and my study that I began to really see the exegesis of Scripture on a level

I could not find in the other camp as an Arminian. Not even knowing

I was an Arminian, wouldn't even consider myself or class myself as that. But as you understand, if you're not monergistic in your idea of regeneration, you are synergistic.

One way or the other. Yeah. Either a complicated synergist or a simple synergist. It doesn't really matter. You're still a synergist one way or the other.

So it was your work and then also the helpful blog site of, not the blog site, the main site of monergism .com,

some of the articles there. And again, because you realize that these big gun reformers, the magisterial reformers, the

Luthers, the Calvins, and later on the Edwards and all of these Spurgeon and all of these wonderful figures who've changed nations under the power and anointing of the

Holy Spirit in history, they may not have agreed on every theological point, but they all agreed on this.

And they understood God's sovereignty in election. And I thought it would be foolish to at least not attempt to understand why they would actually say that.

What grounds? I mean, were they just people of their age who just took that tradition from Augustine or was there some merit to it?

And I think every Christian owes them at least the respect to say, why would they believe that? Right.

Right. Well, hey, you do, by the way, have some English people listening. Chat channel

London Truth is listening. And how come you can get away with that? And I can't. I sound exactly the same.

This is the news from the BBC. Today in Parliament, the Queen tripped on her robe, much to the astonishments of the members.

Fortunately, she was unscathed. Unscathed. Yes, it is what it sounds like. Man, it is so boring over there.

It's just terrible. But anyways, and then you actually got an argument started in channel between some

Man United fans and somebody else. So I just thought you might want to. Well, the

Liverpool supporters are the elect. Are they are the elect? Is that how you know? Manchester United are red devils. What do

I tell you? Oh, well, OK. Yeah, they're playing each other on Saturday. So London Truth is an

Arsenal fan. So is that a good thing or a bad thing? It's better than being a Man United fan. OK, all right. I'll keep that in mind.

Now, by the way, you should. Is there anything you would like to say to your your former fellow citizens of the

United Kingdom? Because you are an American citizen now, in light of the fact that you committed an almost unpardonable sin in the book.

I just wanted to if you if you feel like you need to get something off your chest, John. Now, I did. Now is the time to make confession.

I did get an email from someone saying that I have renounced all things of my heritage by using the word sucker sucker.

You did. I did explain it. I did explain it. And I explained to them, look, it's a foreign missions project.

You go to certain nations. You've got to learn the language to be able to communicate. You go to China. What's the point in speaking in English if you go to China?

So I'm accommodating the depravity of the

Americans by speaking in their language. But how could anyone who, like you, was in love with football now call it sucker?

I mean, because I mean, football. It's actually played with the foot. Yes. Unlike our game, which we call football, which is only rarely played very rarely.

Yeah. The good news was I didn't actually have to mouth the word. I could just write it. That's true.

See, if I had been you, what I would have said was I wrote football in the original in my editor.

Then the editor changed it to translate it. That's what I would have done. But you didn't do that. I didn't do it.

There you go. So the explanation to 10 would be the best, but two would have been.

I got to work on it. Okay. All right. So folks can get it by going to Modern Judaism books.

And I guess you can just search for the project products or they can also go to my blog, which is

Effectual Grace. As you mentioned, effectualgrace .com. And on the right hand side of the page, it just says, if you want to buy the book, you click on here and it goes straight to that.

Modern Judaism books does certainly carry it. That's the best place to get it. Well, they're sort of the publisher.

Yes. Okay. All right. Yeah. However, that works. And you can even select the format between Moby and EPUB.

And I wonder if they would make it available in PDF or something. I mean, that would be another way that people could get it and stuff like that.

I hear there's things you can download. Probably. Yeah. That allows you to do that. Yeah, probably.

So I probably have. Just quickly on the area of tradition,

I also did an initial chapter about the concepts we have and what

I would call theological genetics in the sense of we've got such a respect for the people who've led us to Christ.

Maybe it's a pastor or a teacher. And they've told us that Calvinism is wrong. By the way,

I don't use the word Calvinism in the book or even mention John Calvin. Not because I'm against that.

But I just... You never mentioned John Calvin? Didn't mention him. Really? Didn't even quote him once? Not once.

Wow. Because Christians might have an aversion to Calvinism because there's so many straw men, as you know, and they've heard certain things about Calvin.

And so you quote him and it's not in any way useful. I just wanted to quote Jesus because every

Christian loves him. Luke and Mark and John. I wanted them to see

Jesus saying it. You know, when Jesus had no problem with evangelism, but before he ever said, come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, he said,

I praise you, Father, you've hidden these things. So, you know, seeing it in Jesus' words, seeing it from the scriptures,

I wanted to really concentrate there and then talk about those big, big heart issues of what free will actually is.

The man does have a will, but it's in bondage to his nature. And just as a man can't fly unaided to the moon, he has no desire for God or the things of God until God changes the disposition of his heart.

And talk about the love of God and say there are differentiations there.

So those three things are big ones in the minds of people. Love of God, the will of man, and what

I would call theological genetics. Someone called it love lines. And I think they've got such a desire to honor the one who's led them to the

Lord, who's told them don't ever get into this stuff, that it's a real barrier for them.

It is. I've encountered that many times. You wonder what the prejudice is at times when you're just teaching the word of God.

And it's funny. I don't know if I told you the last time I was in London, I went from London to Dublin.

And it's my first time in Ireland. Yeah, they've got a good economy because their capital is always Dublin. Anyways, very quickly.

Yeah, we need to do that. Actually, they don't have a good economy right now. I know, it's an old joke. It's a very old joke, yeah.

But not a real Reformed area, Dublin, as you can imagine. And I was speaking at a

Reformed Baptist church there. And someone else over in somewhere in England had arranged for me to speak at a

Brethren church in Dublin. And I'm like, okay, all right.

I spoke at Brethren churches in Italy and had some interesting experiences as a result.

As you can imagine, Brethren churches are not known for being overly friendly toward Reformed theology. And I had been told to speak on Romans 9.

So I'm like, okay, no problem. I get there and the first night that I'm in Dublin speaking with a

Reformed Baptist pastor, he goes, now, you know what's going on at this church, right? And I'm like, no,

I don't know. He says, well, the guy that set this up sort of, you know, let's just put it this way.

The elders don't know what you're speaking of. So he's, in other words, sending me in as the nuclear bomb type thing to, you know.

And so, you know, I said, well, if you could please contact them and make sure they know what

I've been asked to speak about. And if that's a problem with them, I'll be happy to speak on the

Islamic Jesus. Whatever, I have no interest in being used as a Calvinistic bat outside somebody's head if they don't know that it's coming.

Well, this created a huge brouhaha. And eventually, like the day before, they contacted me and they said, we want you to speak on Romans 9.

Okay. So the Reformed Baptist church cancels their Sunday night service. And so two churches come together in this one

Brethren meeting hall. Yeah. And, you know, that's not a real comfortable situation to be in.

I don't care who you are, but you're walking into a place and you know that there's a possibility of controversy.

And it's not like you just feel, you know, a great deal of freedom in opening the word at that point.

But they asked me to do so. So what I did is I just, I just took the original language text because I didn't want to have to deal with the

King James issue. And I just stopped there and I just opened Romans 9.

And I didn't have to mention Calvinism. I didn't have to mention Reformed theology. I just opened Romans 9 and I just worked through it.

And they loved it. They thought it was wonderful. And you'll have situations where I'll speak someplace and I'll speak on a

Reformed topic. But since I'm preaching it from the word, I'll have people come up to me afterwards. And they're just, they're just sort of getting the idea that I may be saying something about that, but, but you're preaching straight out of the

Bible. So that really couldn't be that. Right. Do you really? And then they'll start raising, you know, the big issues.

Yes. And they're shocked when you go, well, yeah, of course I, I believe that. And then you have to try to find some way of, you know, getting them to open their

Bible. Yeah. And that's where they want to go straight away. Pretty much. Yeah. You don't believe that stuff about Jesus not dying for, you know, that type of stuff.

Yeah. And it can be, it can be a bit of a difficulty. But anyway, it was an interesting experience.

And I'd love to get back there again with the lovely folks. I mean, the Irish are wonderful people.

They really are. I think from my own experience, I look back and I feel a sadness. First of all, gladness that I didn't write when

I had my form of view. But a sadness that you think, oh, the wasted years, what

I could have given and shared with folk. And I think the one thing

I would want to kind of make a remark about is, I'm sure you can say the same, in not having first embraced this,

I've lost friendships over this and ministerial links and associations. And it's been heartbreaking.

People that I've known for years just don't want anything to do with anyone who would embrace

Reformed theology. And it's heartbreaking. And in that sense, the book is kind of born out of the sadness of that.

And yet, hopefully, as you've experienced yourself, there's been people. I remember a lady who's 60 years as a

Christian, a lady in her 80s who came up to me after about six or seven sessions, I think that's wise if you're going to teach on this, allow people to have time to work through these things rather than just ram it down someone's throat and expect them to turn on a dime in 10 minutes, which is often not...

I saw what I did to Rich, actually. He still has a twitch because... He still has the twitch. But the lady came in tears and says,

I'm so thankful my relationship with God is sought to new heights. I've got a closeness with him and an appreciation of his grace that wasn't there before.

Because a lot of people say, even if it's true, what's the point? Why would you want to go there and unsettle people?

And yet, when you look at Scripture, Jesus didn't apologize for this. If you want to see Jesus get excited, he says,

I praise you, Father, that you've hidden these things and you've revealed it to others. And I thought to myself, why is it

Jesus is excited by this and I'm not? Why is he... He's excited by something that I find offensive.

And that really set me thinking. Also, I began to look at certain texts,

John 10 being one of them. And he says to a group of people looking them in the face, you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

And I had to admit that for many years, even though the words were staring at me, just right in front of me,

I'd always interpreted them through the grid of my tradition. Turn it upside down. Turn it upside down. Change Jesus' words from back to front and said, look, if they choose to believe, they can be sheep.

That's right. Why do you not hear what I'm saying to you? Because you do not belong to God. Yeah. Wait a minute.

But they could just choose. Yeah. And I realized, who am I? What right have

I got to change Jesus' words around? The answer is obviously no right at all. And you see

Jesus saying it so clearly. I remember one person saying, look, even if it's true, you'd never share this in an evangelistic sermon.

And again, you see Jesus doing that in John 6. I mean, you're the master to me at bringing out what's in the text of John 6.

But the whole premise is there's a group of people and Jesus tells them why it is they don't believe.

That's it. The explanation is no one comes to the Father unless the Father draws and the one draws.

One drawn, I'll raise him up on the last day. And the whole crowd leaves. He gets into other things too, but that's a big one.

God's election. And Jesus didn't run after them and say, look,

I'll talk on something else next time. That's right. He takes his own disciples and he says, are you going to go too?

And they said, well, you're the only show in town. You're the only one with the words of eternal life. Yeah. That's true.

And he didn't run after them. He didn't apologize. And he just, and if you think about it, if it's so dear to the heart of Jesus that he would allow thousands of people to walk away because they would not tolerate election, it must mean something to God.

Oh, yeah. This doctrine means something to God. Well, you know, that issue of, there is a balance.

Because you know what you said, what you were saying. There is a balance. What you were saying about, you know, there's a lot of people won't have anything to do with it anymore.

I mean, believe me, I know that. Not just for being reformed, but that's one of the reasons. I mean, we have some fun with the

Radio Free Geneva theme, but there's one in there where a Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary professor falsely identifies me as a hyper -Calvinist and things like that.

And that has clearly had an impact on where I can go, where I can minister and that type of a thing.

But at the same time, you know, if there's going to be separation, it needs to be,

A, based upon the truth, and it needs to be, B, soaked in grace. For example, everybody knows that I'm very good friends with my brother,

Michael Brown, who is an Armenian. And he knows what the issues are.

And we've debated the issue, at least on our programs. We still need to do that big, huge, full thing, which we will do eventually.

But we still work together on issues like, well, just this past couple days.

Back in 1995, I moderated a debate that he did against Rabbi Emanuel Shochet at Arizona State University in March of 1995.

Well, Rabbi Shochet's son wrote a piece for the Huffington Post earlier, well,

I think just this weekend, wherein he said that his father had only done one debate against a apostate

Jew, and that there had been a panel of judges who had proclaimed

Rabbi Shochet the victor. Oh, my. Well, I was the only moderator of the debate.

There was no panel of judges or anything there at all. And so Michael contacted me and said, would you mind commenting on this?

Because he needed to respond to it too. And, you know, I was glad to do so. And, you know,

I've had Michael on to talk about his book on homosexuality, one of the best books ever written on that subject. And so we have our differences, but we talk about them.

And at least for he and I, when we talk about them, we go to the text of scripture. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't think he has some traditions.

But the thing I love about Michael is, if I say that, he's going to examine that. Yes. Rather than just respond with, unfortunately, the knee -jerk reaction where, you know, you listen to my conversations with Dave Hunt.

And every time I would point to tradition for Dave, what Dave would hear me saying is, I'm attacking the

Bible. And I'm attacking his commitment to the Bible. Because since he doesn't believe he has any traditions, then his interpretation of the

Word of God becomes melded into one. And there's no way you can separate that out and analyze your traditions if you think that the

Bible and your traditions are the same thing. So he categorizes you as someone who's attacking the

Bible. Exactly. Exactly. And that's how he thinks about it. And that's where a lot of the zeal comes from.

I think a lot of the folks, for example, the Southern Baptist Convention, who are just horrifically concerned about Calvinism coming into our churches, stuff like that.

It's pure tradition. And in fact, they don't want to learn what Reformed theology actually is saying.

Because what they see it as is, well, that's not how we've done it before. That's against our tradition. And again, because Baptists don't have tradition, therefore, it's against the way

God would have us to do things. Let me ask you this question. In my summing up and going through some of the things

I needed to unravel myself, I never, once I understood what

Calvinism actually taught, I've never heard the other side accurately represent our side.

And I think surely even the scholars would. Oh, you like Roger Olsen?

I mean, wouldn't they at least say, this is what we believe. So that a

Calvinist sitting in the room would say, yeah, we do believe that. Which we give respect to the Roman Catholics and even to the

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons to try and accurately represent. Now, this is what they believe. So that whether they're a

Roman Catholic priest, they'd sit in the room and say, you know what, I don't like what may be coming, but you've at least accurately represented my side.

Why is it, you think, that there's not even a desire? Is it such a lack of respect? Is that what it is?

For some people, it is. The guy we're going to turn to here in a moment and listen to, there's no question in my mind, it is a, there is a lack of respect.

There is a... But surely history tells them to at least give them the benefit of the doubt.

I mean, if it wasn't for the Luthers and the Calvins, we'd all be Roman Catholics. Yeah, well, you know, the problem is,

I think for others, it's really a fear issue. It is, many people are raised with a mindset that if someone does it differently than we do it, there's something automatically wrong with that.

And therefore there is a fear in listening to what it is they're actually saying.

And in fact, a fear of compromise. I'm compromising if I even put out the necessary effort to understand where you're coming from.

There's a compromise there. I'll just use an example right now. Someone who's actually made two comments so far about how he's enjoying our conversation is my

Muslim friend from Australia, who is in the channel right now. Undoubtedly finding it interesting to listen to this conversation.

The debate that we did, I'm not sure if you had a chance to see it yet, but the debate that we did in Sydney requires people,

I've been playing it in my Sunday school class, Sunday mornings past two weeks. And it really requires people to, if you try to watch that and as a

Christian, you are not actually desirous of understanding what Abdullah Kunda was saying, you're just gonna turn him off.

And it's pretty easy to do that. You just sort of flip the mental switch. It's like, I don't understand what he's saying.

I don't like the way he's talking, or I don't like his presentation. You can always find an excuse.

They're wrong. So what's the point of even bothering? Exactly. Well, we all know and those people with their

AK -47s. I mean, there's lots of ways of doing it. You actually have to put out an effort. And just like a

Muslim has to put out an effort to understand what I'm saying, to let down those barriers enough to at least understand.

And there's a lot of people that are afraid to make that, to take that step and to put out the effort to understand because, well, that's them.

I consider it a work of grace that back in 2000, I was willing to do that because I've run into people who are certainly not.

And would you say it's the same thing? It's not only are we saved by that wonderful grace of God, but even to understand these things and be open to embrace

God's sovereignty is a work of grace. And that's why I have always, with some level of impatience,

I'll be honest, rejected hyper -Calvinists and the people who basically demand perfection of theology.

I always have. Look back over however long the blog exists and articles before that and interactions

I had with people. And when someone would come along and just simply consign all our minions to hell, you will not find me to be an overly nice person in that situation.

I admit it, I will jump down your throat because it just strikes me as such a fundamental denial of what we ourselves believe.

Unless you recognize that it was God by His Spirit that quelled the rebellion against these truths in your own heart and opened your own eyes to see these things.

Well, then you seem to think that somehow you're smart enough to figure this stuff out on your own. And I just, man, that's, well, in fact,

I'm not sure where the term came from. I've certainly used it for a long time, but you mentioned the book. You know, there's some cage stagers like that where they'd do a whole lot better if they were stuck in a cage for a few years and get some maturity.

But in their mind, they say, well, they quote Spurgeon, Calvinism is the gospel. And therefore, if you don't cross your

T's and jot your I's in the exact same way. It's the truest expression of the gospel.

But for them, if you're not a Calvinist, you're going to hell. Yeah. Oh, there's many people like that.

So how would you talk about the Arminian position and those who embrace it?

How would you? You know, I'm straightforward. You know, I've said, I stole this from my fellow elder long before he was my fellow elder.

You know, I heard him once say, God can draw a straight line with a crooked stick. Yes. And, you know, unless I were some kind of, you know, getting back into the

Donatist controversy and stuff, you know, God can use imperfect means. He uses imperfect people, thankfully, or none of us would still be being used.

And so I differentiate between, look, for the glory and honor of God, I must stand up and say,

Arminianism is a sub -biblical presentation. It will create not only all sorts of apologetic problems, because since it's inconsistent with the

Bible, it will be fundamentally indefensible. It detracts from the glory of God.

And when taken to its logical conclusion, leads you to a false gospel. I don't think there's any question about it.

It leads you to work salvation if it's taken to its ultimate conclusion. But almost everybody

I know, almost, not all, almost everybody I know who is an Arminian is an

Arminian who is inconsistent because they'll also profess in the grace of God.

Only those saved by the grace of God alone. Now we understand what sola gratia actually means.

There's a denial of that at a fundamental level. There is a fundamental level. And that's what causes people such...

But I believed in grace alone. And you were inconsistent. That's why in most of my classes, when

I teach, and I did it again this last class I just taught, I said, look,

I'm going to step on your theological toes in this class. And that's my role.

If I don't do that, I am not fulfilling the proper role of a professor here.

You need to be challenged. This is the context in which it needs to take place. It doesn't need to be taking place outside here in the realm of unbelief.

It needs to be taking place right here. And when you push someone for consistency, it can be very uncomfortable.

And that's why people get angry with me and they get upset with me and they don't... You're bothering me.

But I don't want that to be me. And I know sometimes some of it is. I don't want that to be because of my personality or how ugly

I am or something else. I want that to be because they're really being challenged by the word itself.

Now, sometimes they'll lash out at me because I'm the instrument. Okay, that's fine. I've had that happen more than once. And I get emails fairly regularly from folks.

I'm beginning to get my own. Oh, yeah. Well, for example, one of the biggest ones. I don't know how many times

Rich probably could remember better than I do. We get emails from folks saying, you know, back in 2001,

I was driving down the road, listening to the Bible Answer Man broadcast and you were debating

Hank and you were debating George Bryson. And I was pounding on my dashboard and I was yelling at the radio, refute that guy, refute that guy.

And they weren't refuting you. And so I had to start looking at that. And I'm a Calvinist today. And I don't appreciate it.

Well, actually, hopefully, if it's a few years down the road, it's like, and I really appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, but you get that kind of thing all the time.

But initially, man, they were just this anger. And I don't ever want that guy coming to my church.

I don't care how much he's got to say about Islam or the Mormons or I don't care how good his apologetics is.

He's a Calvinist. And part of it is just because they're realizing, man,

I don't know what to do with these verses. And I can't put it all together. And I don't want to go that way.

But, you know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. December 2003, not 2001.

Thank you, Algo. You don't know what it's like to have someone to have someone who has listened to every one of your debates, every one of your dividing lines multiple times.

Okay, it's scary. It is. Does he know where the bunker is? I don't know.

No, Algo's not been here. Okay. We're still slightly safe. Anyway.

How important an issue is it? In the sense of... What, Algo? Not the... No, no, no, no, no, no. I've had

Christians who've even embraced these things and then get mad at me because I emphasize them.

Yeah, yeah. Well, how important is it to emphasize it? Well, ask us, you know, you were telling me about your professors and you knew what they believed, but you didn't know why.

See, I don't get that. As a professor... I don't understand that. I don't get that. And I don't even know how that can work. It's sort of like churches where you have pastors who say, yeah,

I'm Reformed, but I really don't say anything about the... How can... I found out afterwards, after I left the college, that the reason they didn't was they had a big debate at the college and there was a fistfight between Armenians and Reformed.

And so the year I came, they decided we're not going to do that. We're not going to get into that. I understand.

Well, you're not a real Christian. Yes, I am. You're not a... Bang! Bang! I'm really surprised... For the glory of God!

I'm really surprised that Brits would do that. But anyway, I mean, the worst thing

I could have done is said, oh, I'm not going to have tea with you. I figured that would be the British slap in the face. But I think it's very important.

It was 2001. This I do remember. I spoke at my friend Silly Brit One's church,

Colin Smith, who, like you, has renounced the things of the homeland. But I don't know if you would refer to football as soccer.

Yeah, he hasn't gone to the next level. I'm really not sure. But I was speaking at his church and he asked me to speak on why five points isn't enough.

And I am concerned about... I just got...

I just got insulted by Abilakunda about my accents. And I didn't even do an accent. I mean, it's terrible.

He said my accents are horrible. I'm really hurt now. But anyway, he asked me to do a presentation on why five points is not enough.

And basically what I was speaking on is the fact that if you really believe these things, there are logical ramifications for the entirety of your worship, your life, and your church.

And that, to me, I think is really where, to use the phrase, the rubber meets the road, is when

I look at someone who says, oh, I'm with you all the way on that. And then you see that it has not had any impact on their worldview, or especially their view of worship.

Yes. You know, I just don't see how Reformed theology fits with entertainment

Christianity that minimizes the proclamation of the Word of God and tries to use worldly methods to attract people.

I'm not saying that Reformed theology means you have to wear 17th century Puritan get up and so on and so forth.

But there's got to be a line somewhere. There's got to be some impact. There's got to be something more than... The five points can't exist over here and become an attachment upon a pre -existing theological system.

Because, as you know, the five points presuppose a sixth in regards to the utter,

I call it, the kingly freedom of God, God's freedom to be God and be with His creation as He sees fit.

That's the fact. You're never really going to believe those five unless you believe that first one. As I've read,

Calvin, that really seems to be where he's coming from. Oh, yeah, it is. That's really it. The worship of the church. Yeah, the source of everything.

This is how I view God and therefore it's going to have ramifications for everything else. And so when

I see churches adopting sort of the skeleton, but I don't see the body,

I don't see it impacting, and I see all this... They haven't got it. They haven't really understood.

And it's going to end up reflecting really badly upon, quote unquote, Calvinism as a result because people will look at that and go, well,

I don't want anything to do with that. Now, of course, we're our own. We're always our own worst enemies as far as that goes.

We're not perfect. And there are times when we're arrogant about it and all the rest of that stuff.

And even on this, look, I'm not designed to be everybody's favorite theologian.

Okay, I'm not. You're mine. Well, thank you. But there are people... For example, there are people on both sides of this particular issue that don't think you should ever be humorous.

You should not have a sense of humor. It is amazing, isn't it, Rich? How many times I get criticized because I dared to laugh or I dared to inject something other than just being just...

But then if I don't do that, then there are other people that will shoot at me for that, right? Oh, wait, wait.

I'm sorry, John, but... Yeah, okay. That's...

I'm very sorry that he just identified that you as a European. You need to understand the folks in the

United Kingdom do not consider themselves European. I'm in a sad place because the Americans think I've got an English accent.

The English think I've got an American accent. I have really a mid -Atlantic accent. Someone said it this way, that some people are so narrow -minded, there is touch.

They can look through a keyhole with both eyes. Okay, well, thank you very much.

I was making a point there. But if you read Luther, I mean, humor... Oh, well, yeah, but some even

Luther's humor leaves me going, oh, okay, all right. I wouldn't go there. No, not going there today.

In fact, if Luther showed up in my chat channel, I think I have scripts that would automatically kick him out of a few points.

And the sad part is Luther would throw you and I out of his Reformation. Oh, no, he would probably have us hunger burned or something.

But then again, Calvin would have too. And would laugh as it happened as well. And I understand all of those things.

And have figurines drawn. Yeah, exactly. I'd probably get my third baptism or something from both of them.

But the point is, it really is amazing how people will listen and will look for any reason to not hear what you're saying.

Like I said, I do sometimes get in the way and I'm not perfect. I think a lot of folks, unfortunately, don't give me the benefit of the doubt and realize that I don't think that God's kingdom is dependent upon my being here.

I really don't. I'm sort of glad and Rich knows who this was. And I think half the people in the listening audience will know who this was.

But I'm really thankful that back in the 80s, when this ministry was the size of a, well, we still are the size of a shoelace, but we're a larger shoelace now.

When this ministry was extremely small and we were just living on almost nothing.

And nobody had any idea who in the world I was. I listened to a guy that was real big on radio back then.

He's not really on radio anymore. He lost weight? I really don't think that's ever been an issue for him.

But he did some good stuff. He did some good apologetic stuff.

But he would spend a minimum of a quarter of his radio program and normally at least a third of his radio program.

Not only raising funds, but doing it in the sense of if I'm not here, this will not get done.

I mean, the essence of the assertion was God's kingdom work in this area is dependent upon yours truly and you need to support me in this.

And it turned me off so much that a lot of folks figure we're just funded and we never have to say a word about because you can listen to 20 dividing lines in a row and we won't say a word about that.

We're not. That's not the case. But that's just the way we've done things.

Especially when you're doing apologetics, it really is hard to talk a lot about funding and money and stuff like that without sounding like you're doing this for the wrong reasons.

But for me, I don't see myself as being some big important cog and if people just realize that and then listen to me in light of that, they would see that generally when

I laugh about something, it's because it's funny. Yes. And it's not because I'm trying to be arrogant or demeaning or anything like that.

But unfortunately, maybe because their experience with others, I don't get that. I don't get that.

They don't cut that. There's a caricature and people embrace that. And it's that. And you're right.

I found there's some real cold -hearted Calvinists and some prideful Calvinists, which goes against everything.

Under contradiction of thought. Totally. And that's often, again, one of the reasons why folk won't look into it.

I don't want to be like him. Look at that. Yeah. And there are Calvinists who will not evangelize or very rarely would.

And one of the chapters in the book is about how Jesus is this evangelist but also believes in election as he teaches it.

And there's no contradiction between a Romans 9 and a Romans 10. How shall they hear without a preacher?

That's the means that God uses to achieve his ends and all of that. And yet there's some people that, again, what was a shock to me was this great evangelist, my father figure, was reformed.

That was a shock because I had a caricature that if you're Calvinist, you don't evangelize. Yeah, right. Yeah, well, it's always been...

All these years we're going, reaching out to Mormons in Salt Lake City. And I loved when the attack on hyper -Calvinism took place.

Where was I? I was in London. Oh, what was that really cool place

I was staying at? Roger Brazier put me up at this place. It was right near Edmonton. It was an old castle.

I've forgotten what the name of it was, but I just love staying there. And I still love staying there and love

Roger Brazier's family. Love to get back there and see him again. Anyway, I'm there getting ready to do a number of debates against Muslims.

I'm going to be debating in a church that's like two tube stations down from where one of the 7 -7 bombings was.

And I'm going to be debating a Muslim in this situation. And at that very same time is when