War of the Worldviews: LGBTQ vs. Christians

LGBTQ Identity, Sin, and the Christian Response

And any God which denies me for this, I don't want to have a part of it.

Some sins are worse than others.

Okay, we got one LGBTQ member coming in. Oh, two.

In the eyes of the God I worship, I believe that any sin separates us from him because he's holy and pure. But at the same time, I think there are certain sins that will have greater consequences.

Yeah, I resonate with that. For me, it would be, you know, killing another human is the worst. That's it. Also, it's Venn diagrams into abortion. Taking the life of another is huge. It's huge.

Can I ask you two this? Do you all see homosexuality as a sin?

Yes.

And if so, where on that scale?

I don't think...

So hold on a second. So before we go any further, some sins are worse than others. Technically, that's true. Okay, the Bible shows us this is true. When Jesus said to Pontius Pilate that those who delivered me to you have the greater sin, he was revealing that there is a hierarchy of sins and that some sins are greater than others.

Jesus also illustrated this when he said that the slave who knew his master's specific will and didn't do it would receive more lashes than the one who did not know specifically what the master's will was.

So there is a hierarchy. The problem is we don't have the full chart on that hierarchy, do we, Logan? The Bible doesn't really delineate what that full chart is, and so we don't see all the sins laid out and in what particular order.

The only indication that we get about homosexuality, about the sin of homosexuality, is that God considers it to be an abomination. And it's probably an abomination because it runs directly against the created order, and our own specific design as human beings.

We were made to be priests of this world and to reveal God's image, partly through the family structure and through producing children through that dynamic. So to me, the sin of homosexuality is a little bit different than lying because some lying can take place while not perverting that created order.

So now there's a new question. Let's take a look at this.

A homosexual tendency or an attraction to somebody of the same gender is a sin. I think that's a natural feeling. I think when you start engaging in a lifestyle and you act upon that tendency, then because it goes against what I believe God designed, then I think that's clearly a sin.

Also, can we just acknowledge really quickly, so the LGBTQ person, Beck, which I suppose, they haven't really identified themselves, right? But Beck, I suppose, would be a lesbian. She actually acknowledged what we know to be true as Christians, particularly as it pertains to abortion.

She realized that abortion is the taking of an innocent life. And if I were sitting down next to Beck, I would say, good for you, because we can agree on this, and that is 100 true, and I completely affirm that.

I just don't believe in sin because I feel that sometimes being punitive about things can make you repress things. And instinctually, I was like, but not acting on them would be a sin. That's how it feels for me.

Being dishonest to myself, that feels wrong.

And there it is again. So, you know, we talked about this before, but whatever feels wrong to me would be the ultimate evil. It would be the ultimate sin. And that is, you know, post-Enlightenment Romanticist views of the self, you know, just I need to express my true self on the inside, and everybody's opposing me from the outside.

Authority is opposing me. You know, society is opposing me. But, you know, whatever is on the inside and whatever feels good, that is what is good and righteous. And that is, again, just garbage. It is an utter lie, and it crept in around the time of the Age of Enlightenment, although arguably, you know, the authority of the self has been creeping in since the Garden of Eden.

Logan, we had some internet issues there, but was there any comments that you wanted to make?

Beck's identity becomes a little bit more clear later on in the video, but this is somebody who does not fit all of the predetermined boxes that we tend to put people and their beliefs in, which is one of the things I like about a format like this.

One more thing to notice before we move on. I think he's a gay man. His name is James. He was very uncomfortable when one of the Christians started talking about his view of homosexuality. Is homosexuality a sin?

And the Christian starts to answer it. James starts to laugh. And that is very, it's very telling because laughter in this regard is an inappropriate response. And so, what that tells me is that he's uncomfortable, this is his kind of defense mechanism, he's, you know, he's trying to, there's a wall here, but he doesn't like what he's hearing.

I would, at that point, you got to stop as a believer trying to communicate and ask the question, you know, not to start a fight unnecessarily, but to acknowledge, hey, I noticed that what I'm saying is causing you to laugh.

Do you mind if I ask why? And then seeing what they say about it because, you know, that's just not, if you continue down this line and you ignore it, you might end up causing more trouble and you want to be effective.

So, anyway, let's move on.

Sex, Love, and the Meaning of Detestable

At some point in my life, I was taught that sex is wrong. I guess like within the context, you know, sex is bad outside the context of marriage. And so, I guess that's how I identified with the question.

I had a very strong religious upbringing and I ended up doing a lot of self-harm and I ended up doing a lot of things just to try and cope with these urges that when I finally gave into them, I went, this is a physical manifestation of love.

This is glorious and beautiful and any God which denies me for this, I don't want to have a part of because whatever this is, I know for a fact to be a truth because it is the nature of love.

Yeah, just responding to your story, it makes me sad to hear.

So, you got one Christian, and this is the man talking right now, one Christian talking to two LGBTQ folks that have decided to engage on this issue and here's his response.

I hear that you decided to hurt yourself. Yeah, I still hold on to what I believe are my beliefs, but at the same time, I wish there was a better way for you to talk to someone and to process and to think through reconciling how you feel with what you may have been taught or have read through scripture.

Logan, what are your thoughts on this one?

I really like the way that the Christian responds here because one of the things that I'm noticing about it is, you see a little bit of a difference in James' non-verbals. So, before this question comes up, or before the Christian gives this response, he was laughing in the earlier part at what the Christian was saying.

He seems to want to find a way to get this particular story in because it's not a real natural fit for the question, but he wants to tell the story and then after, and he says it pretty, fairly aggressively when he's telling his story.

And when the Christian responds not with, well, but you were wrong about this. He first responds with compassion and then says, he doesn't compromise what he thinks is right, but he is very much leading with, I'm sorry that that happened to you.

I wish that could have been different for you. And I thought it was a really good response. And I think that he does a really good job of, in that moment, of meeting him where he's at and meeting him in his, sort of his emotion in his story, not just, he's not skipping all the steps in the order of persuasion, in other words.

Yeah.

Now, we've talked about this before, but it just has to be said again. You got to watch, you got to read the person that you're talking to, and James is a really good example of a lot of LGBT folk that engage, first of all, not a lot of LGBT folk will engage Christians and vice versa.

You know, they'll avoid it. They won't go near, they'll talk all about them behind their back, but they won't sit down and do what James and this other person is doing, so they should be commended. But there is a wall that is put up around James, and it's very clear, his body language shows he's uncomfortable, he's nervous, he's laughing at inappropriate times.

I would argue, so that's what I wanted to ask you about, the body language, like, what is the body language saying to you? Did you pick up on that, Logan?

Yeah, so something, so I caught very much a sort of aggression when he's first going through that response. While the Christian, and I'm awful with getting their names mixed up, when the Christian is giving his response, he seems a lot more, he seems more like he's listening and he's not prepping for an angry comeback, which is kind of what it looked like in the last segment.

Now, with that said, he's still pretty high strung. Like, so one of the things that I notice is when he's saying, I'm sorry that happened to you, James nods, like, as in, like, you know, he's accepting this affirmation, but he does it like, it's a very jerky motion, like, exaggeratedly so.

And so I think that says, that is a step in the right direction. He's still pretty high strung, he's still pretty anxious about the whole situation. And so, you know, these things exist on a continuum, but that motion was something that just really stuck out at me.

Yeah, someone. And to process and to think through reconciling how you feel with like what you may have been taught or have read through scripture.

Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing is, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of cultural baggage, I think, around Christianity that isn't necessarily inherently part of any biblical Christianity.

Excuse me? Excuse me? What does that mean?

Yeah, I want to know what the Christian said after that.

Yeah.

I really want to know. I mean, they don't tell us, but.

What is he talking about? You know, I want, yeah, because the producers of this video decided to make cuts just to make this more viewable, and I understand that, but maybe they also cut it for an agenda,.

Right?

So did the Christian engage? Like, was there a question there? Is James an advocate of the Matthew Vines, you know, understanding of the Bible? Does James think that homosexuality was totally permissible in the Bible and somehow those teachings against homosexuality kind of crept in later?

Like, what is he talking about?

Well, and you know, so if this was somebody I was able to sit down, you know, over coffee or something, have a longer conversation with, I would want to know what exactly it was that he was taught and what he says is a very religious upbringing.

The reason being, so I think that the Christians that they have for this segment do a really good job, I think, of distinguishing between same-sex attraction and same-sex sexual activity. One of those is an inclination, the other is an explicitly, you know, it's a sin that's explicitly addressed in the Bible.

It could be, and I mean, Nate, I'm sure you might know people like this who think that homosexuality is so, that they might overstate the case, right? Or they might, you know, intentionally say very harmful things about anybody who has this inclination or this temptation to the extent where it's, you know, reaches a point of you're not a real man if you have this temptation or something like that.

Right.

Because I would just want to get some clarification on that. Now, I have a suspicion, based on some of what he's saying here, that he would consider all of the above to be, you know, not matching up with his idea of biblical Christianity.

But I think you need, you want to get that, sort of that playing field clarified before you get too deep into it. What exactly is it about it that he's saying is not biblical?

Right. Right.

Let's keep going.

Marriage, Human Flourishing, and the Limits of Christian Persuasion

Even though I grew up in a Christian family, I don't recall ever being told that sex was wrong or it was a bad thing. I think I grew up with the understanding that sex is a beautiful thing. It was given to us as a gift to enjoy.

There's a place where it's been designed for, a place where we can enjoy it. And there's a place where it's detestable in the sight of the creator, the one who gave.

It.

There's that smile. So, again, reading the body language from the LGBTQ community, they don't like what they're hearing right now.

To us.

I just don't like the idea that anything's really detestable. You know what I mean? So I just don't like that.

But wouldn't you say that even sex for you within certain contexts is detestable? Like, like if it's non-consensual, like that's pretty detestable.

Yeah.

Agreed.

Agreed.

So even in that...

Oops.

The things that I consent to are, I think, not, like that I have sometimes no control over if it's non-consensual.

Yeah.

Rad got busted there. Right, Logan?

Yes.

Although I think that the choice of the word detestable is kind of questionable. That not in terms of theology, but in terms of effectiveness and helpfulness. Because I think what I would want to focus on, it's not because...

So we talked about this in last week's show when we were talking about engaging with those who are transgender. And one of the things we talked about is we really need to get rid of the ick factor.

Right.

That's, you know, not a helpful thing. I think that using detestable there is kind of bringing up the ick factor. And I think that is really what she's responding to. That it's not, it's not only that they think that what she does is wrong, but they think it's gross.

And I think Christians sometimes mean that in a particular context, the same way that say, you know, injustice in the market, cheating poor people is detestable. You know, there's lots of that kind of stuff in scripture.

And in some cases, pretty similar language. But I think given the context in the audience, that's going to set you a step back unnecessarily.

Yeah.

Totally agree. Trevor agrees with you. Right, Logan? Not the right application. On the other hand, she does make a sweeping statement here, which is that I don't really think anything is detestable. Anything in the context of what we're talking about is detestable.

And so, she got busted. I think this was actually a really great moment for the Christian, because the Christian was very kind, and he probed, and he asked the right question to kind of point this out.

There's a bit of a flaw in what she just said. There are ways that sex can be abused. And rape would be one of them, you know, non-consensual sex, right? The question that I have is, who gets to determine how sex is properly used, you know?

Who gets to determine whether it's abused or not? Does that standard come from RAD? Does it come from the LGBT community? Does that standard come from societies, you know, social contract theory? Or does that standard come from God?

Because there's only one option here that is free of defeaters or any liability, and that's the standard comes from God. But wait a sec. People don't like that answer, you know? And so, they choose to live in contradiction and defeater land in order to continue to do what they like to do.

But anyway, let's go ahead.

I mean, people should honor the pronouns others wish to be called.

Okay, so we talked over that, but this is the pronoun. Is this the pronoun thing?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

I lost the video. How do I rewind this? Yeah, here we go. Let me just rewind this just for a split second so we can make sure that we hear the whole thing. I know what I'm doing.

I'm 40.

Here we go.

People should honor the pronouns others wish to be called.

There it is. Okay, so we have two LGBTQ folk that come. One stays back and it's back. Isn't that interesting?

I'm all for this. I identify as they. People don't consider it. And I think that having these conversations about how people want to identify is really important in a way that we can move things forward and stuff.

Yeah, if you're like, hey, if you don't use whatever, you're going to get fined or whatever. I'm not a big fan of that.

Those are conversations between us though, right?

But otherwise, it's just being respectful.

So, okay, so Rad identifies as they. Okay, so, and we talked about pronouns and using preferred names on last week's episode. I encourage everyone to go watch that or listen to that if you haven't yet.

But also, Rad requests, Logan, she requests it not that nobody ever challenged her on these issues, but then when that challenge comes, watch this.

Oh, the pronoun police. So, for me, I never correct people because many times people do confuse me as sir, I don't, you know, it doesn't faze me. However, I'm born in a female body. I'm a she. There are times where my girlfriends have said, oh, my boyfriend isn't that just because of their comfort zone.

They don't want to have to deal with the whole like social stigma.

So you're comfortable with them presenting you as a male.

It doesn't faze me. It doesn't phase me at all because my identity and my expressions are masculine. I've come to the terms and the realization that I don't need to chop up my body into different pieces to fit in the social little box that is man.

If you want to address me, you can address me as he or she or them or girl Becky with the good hair or Beck. It doesn't, as long as the term is respectful, I will take it.

I mean, I sit back just because it's a complicated topic because with language, language is powerful. And so when somebody who I would consider female wants to be called a male, I would want to probably respect that.

But I still firmly believe that, you know, they're like God created there to be men and a woman. And I would like to sit down and talk to that person in depth before leaning one way or the other.

Yeah, but I think like focusing more on like building a relationship instead of just like grilling someone. Why do you feel, you know what I mean? Like just trying.

What's wrong with you?

Like, why?

Yeah, like, let me sit down.

It's just like, do you like that? America is heading in the right direction when it comes to inclusion and diversity.

Okay, we got one LGBTQ person, two, no Christians.

For me, it's more like the youth are headed in like inclusion and diversity. And I wouldn't necessarily say it's the institutions of power. I think the youth are really moving our culture forward. And like, it's encouraging to see.

Logan, go ahead.

So as we're watching through this again, you know, kind of with fresh eyes, the non-verbals are really sticking out to me. Like, I think I might have pegged James wrongly when I was talking about like that exaggerated head nod because now all of his motions just seem like that to me.

I'm wondering if that's just kind of, you know, his just his communication style. Beck had a very skeptical face with that response by Rad, which I find really interesting. I don't know 100 where that's coming from.

But given the fact that she is, you know, I said this earlier, and we've seen examples of this with abortion and with pronouns, she doesn't fit into the box of predetermined beliefs that we think of for people who are LGBTQ.

And so that's just interesting to me because she seemed very not sure about what Rad was saying.

Yeah.

Well, and again, you know, the influence of post-Enlightenment Rousseauian romanticism is just oozing out of Rad's blue hair. I mean, the structure of authority is the problem. The youth, who I take it Rad would suggest is that's throwing off the authority structures and who are more in touch with their true selves, that's who is truly enlightened and that's who we can count on for the future.

That is, you know, that is everything that is wrong with the idolization of self in today's culture. So, here's what I'm noticing from the Christians, and I think I'll say more about this towards the end, but I'm noticing that the Christians have kind of implicitly adopted the same.

View.

Maybe I should say more about that at the end, but let's pick it up from here.

Now, I can't imagine what it's like to not be able to be who I am and having to hide. So, I think it's good in that sense that people finally are living in a world where I can be who I am and I don't have to be ostracized and I can be included.

And the reason why I didn't step in is because, you know, I have certain values that I think are from God, and so that's why I hesitated a little bit on do I come forward or not.

Yes, this is what I'm noticing. This is what I'm talking about. Isn't it interesting, Logan, how these Christians have been communicating their disagreements with the LGBTQ this entire time? They're very apologetic in tone, very, very careful, almost bending over backwards to try and make sure that the LGBTQ folk are not offended.

That's how I'm seeing it. That's what it looks like to me. And I appreciate the spirit of that. I appreciate where that's coming from. But ultimately, what I sense is going on is they're treating their own convictions as their own personal beliefs, just like the LGBTQ folks.

And when you do that, your beliefs are then made to be on par with everyone else's, which means there's no better belief system in terms of truthfulness or value.

So, Nate, I have a question for you about that.

Yes.

So I have this thing that I say sometimes when we get questions about how to talk about a particular thing. Here's my inside baseball answer that you don't say out loud. And then here's the thing you say out loud.

So I'm wondering, do you think that's the way they are treating their beliefs kind of in their daily walk as well? Or are they trying to express it in the language of the people they're talking to? I think there's still that liability, right?

But I'm just wondering, which do you think is going on?

Oh, man, that's speculation, your honor.

Or maybe which is more common within the church. Maybe we can go there for our folks listening at home.

Yeah, I would, if I had to guess, I would say that this betrays a deeper problem, which is that they have accepted the culture's worldview. The elevation and idolization of self, that they have accepted that post-enlightenment, you know, because we were talking about this a lot in the last episode, the romanticist notion of self, where basically there is something divine in you.

What you were born with is actually good. And what corrupts you is not sin, as the Bible teaches, but what is invading from the outside, society, authority invading from the outside. And I think that's crept into the church quite a bit.

I've seen it happen quite a bit. And that explains, I think, why these Christians particularly are responding in this way. Well, here's my conviction. This is how I believe the Bible. This is how I read it, you know?

And to me, it's ultimately ineffectual when it comes to changing someone's minds. I hate to sound harsh, but there it is.

No, I think that's good. But I wanted to address that because I know that, you know, for some people, they might think, well, we don't want to come across as a Bible thumper, you know? And I mean, I think there's a way to avoid those pitfalls without falling into that.

But that is a common trap. And I think that one that people are especially sensitive to want to try and avoid.

Absolutely. And that's where I think our ministry comes in in a very, very helpful way. Again, if I had to guess what's going on, these Christians realize I want to say something to these people, but I also want them to know that I care about them.

And so, what I'm going to do is I'm going to couch my language in such a way that, you know, I'm not going to really try to jab. And so, I'm going to say, hey, this is how I read the Scripture. These are my personal beliefs, but I respect your personal beliefs.

And like I said, the problem with that is that's like running in place on a treadmill. You're not going to go anywhere. Instead, if you ask questions of someone's belief and you try to expose some flaws.

Look, the Christian did it already before, you know? Rad said, I don't think anything is detestable in the context of sex. And the guy goes, well, hold on a second. You would agree that rape is detestable, you know?

And she goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that, he maintained relationship, it appears, and he challenged her view. You keep doing that and that is much more effective. Let's keep going.

Marriage, Evangelism, and Human Flourishing

Well, I have a question because I, you know, I'm curious where the sanctity of your marriage comes in. Like, if you can only get married to a woman because you and God and that woman have a relationship that is perfect for you, I'm curious how that affects who we can marry.

Yeah, I don't think the job of a Christian, for example, is to get people to behave in a certain moral way that's in line with what the Bible says. I wouldn't be one to say, you can't marry. You can't marry another guy or you can't marry another girl.

I would say, first of all, God loves you. You know, God loves you.

Yeah, so, uh, what?

Okay, so this is a little bit interesting to me because I feel like what he might be saying is that, um, that making non-Christians do external things the Christian way is not saving any souls. And I think that there is a little bit of an argument there for, or there can be an argument there for why, um, Christians getting super involved in, um, you know, who is afforded marriage certificates at the courthouse is not really the most fruitful place for Christians to be expending their energy.

Right?

And, um, and I mean, to some extent, like, this argument now, like, it's a, it feels a little bit like that ship has sailed, legally speaking. Um, but I, but I think that there is an argument for that.

What, but I think that he did not effectively make the demarcation between it's important for people who follow Jesus and who follow God to actually abide by God's plan for marriage, for, um, like, you know, the whole world, the whole Christian worldview, it's important that people who are calling themselves Christians abide by that.

Um, that's different than, um, you know, I believe that Christianity is right. So I'm going to force everybody else, um, by edict to do the same thing, even if they haven't committed their lives to Christ.

Um, but, but what it came across as being instead is, uh, Jesus loves everybody. So we shouldn't be really trying to persuade people why the Christian worldview is more complete. And I think that second part is where it becomes more problematic.

I think that Jesus loves you and that needs to be paired with, and you need Jesus, uh, that comes first or that other stuff, but it's a problem if that comes later becomes that doesn't come at all.

Right. Right.

I, um, probably I get being fair to the Christian, the producers probably cut his fuller comments on this.

Yeah, that's probably true.

Because that, if that, if that, if they were not cut, that was an atrocious response because it's incredible.

He did say first of all, he did say first of all, and then they cut him before he gets to a second of all.

So that is pretty indicative. But the other thing on top of what you're saying is this is, again, it's just another missed opportunity to show there's another way to show that there is a God, which is to show that the lifestyle that the LGBTQ person has embraced, um, does not actually lead to human flourishing.

You can make that argument, not going to the scripture and taking the Bible and banging somebody over the head with it, but you can make that argument in that way. But then it, it, it actually leads to a greater question, which is why then is, um, the, the better way, which is the Christian lifestyle.

Why is that better? Well, the answer is because there is a God, you know, that's the thing is the reason that the Christian lifestyle is more righteous and better is because there is a divine standard that stands over and above all of us.

And so that is just another avenue to talk about the existence of God. But when you say, hey, I don't want to tell you what to do, you know, it's just, my goodness, you get locked into these little boxes and you can't ever step outside of it in order to invade against somebody else's lifestyle choice.

Yeah.

And I think a better way to maybe express that is, um, I remember talking to a friend of mine from high school about, um, there's kind of this consensus you hear in Christian youth groups that, um, anytime a friend around you is swearing, you should tell them to stop.

Uh, and I was talking to a friend of mine from high school and he, and he, uh, we were in college at this point, but that's what I, what the kind of age time I knew him from. And, um, and he said, I'm going to probably butcher the exact way he said it, but it was something to the effect of, I don't want to tell them to do that without giving them a reason why.

And, and he was just talking about how, like, it's kind of silly to expect, um, you know, you might want your non-Christian friends to refrain from certain things out of respect for you and your beliefs.

But all, but at the same time, you don't go around just expecting non-Christians to act like Christians because why would they, um, you know, they just don't have the same reasons to, um, and so that's something that really jumps out at me.

I also think a way I might explore some of what we're talking about here, um, in terms of, uh, human flourishing, um, that different lifestyles do not lead to human flourishing. So we talked a little bit earlier in the video about the use of the word detestable.

Um, another way I might have kind of talked about the same sort of thing, um, to respond to, um, Rad's assertion that, you know, any, nothing that is consensual is detestable. We want to get away from that word.

I might've said, do you think that, that consensual sexual relationships can ever be unhealthy? Um, and I think that might be an interesting, um, road to go down because I think if you, once you get away from the, if you can, for a moment, step away from the allowed, not allowed conversation, I think most people recognize there are relations, sexual relationships that are unhealthy.

I mean, you see, so you see at least one of these in just about every major sitcom, right? Um, it might be in the context of a greater romantic relationship, but I mean, these things are intertwined and I think that might be a good question to, um, kind of step down.

That path a little bit.

Higher Power, God, and the Limits of Subjective Spirituality

I believe in a higher power.

Okay.

Two LGBTQ folk are walking to the table because they affirm that statement. Watch Logan, uh, how these LGBT folks somehow say in so many words that they are the higher power, that somehow they're connected to it.

The deep down their higher power is what directs their lives.

I'd love to hear from your perspective, uh, why you, why you believe in a higher power.

I mean, the household I was raised in, why not? Uh, the analogy of like, you can't, one cannot see love, one cannot see air and it's still.

There.

And, you know, I started going to more clergymen and wanting to understand exactly, you know, my ways of being in the image of a greater creator, understanding I wasn't a mistake. You know, cause you know, there is a higher source.