Frank Beckwith

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Thank you. Morning. Welcome to a special dividing line on a Wednesday morning. Yes, it is my prerogative to change the time of the dividing line as I see fit. Yesterday morning at this time yours truly was climbing Humphreys peak.

You know, it's not called Mount Humphreys. That's a different mountain. It's Humphreys Peak. But it's I thought they were the San Francisco Peaks. Well, why is the also the whole range is the San Jose?

Okay, whatever. It's the highest point in in the state of Arizona and I was I was on a bike. Climbing up to the top did it twice actually and so it wouldn't work very well because it was very windy at the top.

So even if I tried to do a dividing line from there I would have not only frozen to death, but you wouldn't have been able to hear me. Anyways, just would have heard all the time that would have been sort of silly.

So anyways, we moved it to today and First thing I see this morning as I am going through my RSS feeds and like A real uprising in persecution against Christians in Muslim countries, especially in Afghanistan and Pakistan many Christians losing their lives many others being tried and threatened with execution for apostasy in other words for embracing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and The treatment that they received the hands of these allegedly faithful Muslims is truly disgusting.

I would call upon all those Muslims who say oh we all know what that's wrong to to much more vociferously and loudly condemn these types of actions and call upon Afghanistan Pakistan to Stop these types of things, but when it comes to apostasy folks look Mohammed said it the person who changes the religion from that of the one true religion should die and That's happening in these places.

And unfortunately, these are very often governments propped up by our tax dollars. Meanwhile in United States while We have to now stand in front of scanners and basically have our clothes electronically removed.

Hearing the possibilities that Muslim women may be given a pass on that brilliant folks brilliant Scan the Scotsman give the lady in the burqa a pass. All right. Wow, we are TSA is really on the ball on that one.

Oh my goodness Sanity has taken a vacation and I do not know if it is ever intended to come back at any time in the future. All right. Next wild and crazy thing. Now, I'm not I am not surprised by this at all.

But a couple days ago two days ago Frank Beckwith Announced that st. Joseph communications remember st. Joseph communications rich was that the last time you were hung up on by someone. Probably not you you're normally the hanger not the hangy.

Yeah, oh I know that's my point is remember well When you were attempting to speak with the folks at st. Joseph communications after my debate with Tim Staples in 2000 Where we had an explicit written agreement That if any videos were taken of that of that debate that they would be shared with both sides and a video camera was sitting There running from st. Joseph's.

Did we ever see it? No, we did not see it. In fact, I don't think st Joseph's ever made that debate available. I think it just was let's it's just like well the last two debates I've done with Tim Staples.

What's that? Do you think they did? Because I never saw it because they said they were gonna like add some you'll remember.

They were all gung-ho at the event. Oh, yes, they were and they had tape duplicators a bunch of right, right, right, right. But I mean on their website night they distributed right, but I think that was pretty much I think that was it.

Yeah, I don't think that was ever produced and put into a nice little covering like that. Yeah, they did have it that night. In fact, if it wasn't for tape duplication on that night I don't think we would have ever had it either.

So yeah, you bet We have stories we definitely have stories but anyway we never saw that video and when when Rich was trying to say, excuse me, but We have you know, here's this thing and it's written out and your representative said this well We're not gonna do it and they hung up on Rich.

They just and it was the head of st. Joseph's wasn't it Tony Barber? Terry Barber. Terry Barber. Yeah, I was just just hung up on him and that was it so. Anyway, the last two debates have done with Tim Staples from the Catholic perspective have simply gone Gone with the wind.

I never. What debate on purgatory? No, we never did a ban to purgatory on the dividing line. What's that about? Anyway, Frank Beckwith November 15th on his blog st. Justice communications has just released the CD confessions of an evangelical Catholic is an interview of me conducted by Terry Barber and Joshua Betancourt.

Joshua is the co that boy are they milking this one? Joshua is the co-author with Norman L Geisler of Is Rome the true church a book in which he and Geisler critique a variety of Catholic beliefs about ecclesiology and papal authority?

Several months after the release the book Joshua announced his intention to seek full communion with the Catholic Church. Shouldn't be overly surprising folks because Norman Geisler is Compromised on the issue of Rome.

There's a reason why for decades I've heard people and I've never said it publicly, but I'm just repeating what other people say. Refer to him as Roman Geisler because on a basic fundamental level on the issue of the nature of grace and free will he?

Does not disagree with Rome. He's fundamentally compromised his PhDs from a Jesuit school folks. Think about it. Hello. Anyway, you can't obtain The CD via st. Joseph's communications here the following is description of the CD.

Why did the president evangelical Theological Society leave his post and return to the Catholic Church? Now, you know I stopped right there. That's not fair because he had no intention of leaving his post.

He announced his intention to return to the Catholic Church. And then some of us like yours truly said that means you're not an evangelical. Hello. You should resign your position. It was his not his intention to leave that position at all.

Anyways find out as Terry Barber and convert Joshua M. Betancourt, how many times are former Catholics? Automatically called converts. Have you noticed that when you convert to Rome you're converting to a church when you leave Roman Catholicism?

What do we say you've done? You've converted to Christ. It's interesting how it changes anyhow. Convert Joshua M. Betancourt interview one of the most prolific Former evangelicals to embrace the Catholic faith since Scott Hahn Francis J Beckwith Beckwith answers were revitalized and strengthen your Catholic faith or cause your non-catholic friends and family to contemplate why they should embrace the faith.

Listen to Frank persuasively yet genuinely explain what it means to be an evangelical Catholic. How the works of st Augustine impacted his life. What it was like to grow up in a post Vatican to American Church.

How the writings of GK Chesterton William Buckley jr. And blessed Cardinal Henry Newman now isn't you have to say blessed now. Thanks for the Pope did. Affected his theological insights. How the early church fathers changed his views in the doctrine of justification.

How there's more to it than mere Imputed righteousness. How books by Cardinal Joseph Rass and rat Ratzinger. Pope Benedict the 16th Affected his views in the Catholic Church. How st Thomas Aquinas shaped him philosophically.

Why evangelicals should embrace the fullness of faith in the Catholic Church. And much much more. So this is a straightforward Catholic apologetics. Catholic proselytizing CD. Nothing overly surprising by that is there.

No, except that on the next day on The same blog we have this back at the Evangelical Theological Society 17 to 19 November's that's starting today I'm preparing to fly out to Atlanta, Georgia to participate in the 62nd annual meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society.

You can find the program for the meeting here. I will be delivering two papers at the conference. I'll also be participating in the lay conference sponsored by Evangelical Philosophical Society on November 18th through 20th.

Here's a little something about the two papers. I will be delivering an ETS. One of them is a Recent challenges to fetal personhood a critical analysis, okay? But then at the event that's that's one at ETS.

Okay, so that's how he gets past that but my other paper will be delivered at the annual meeting of the Evangelical Philosophical Society a group whose complete docket is part of The ETS meeting. My paper is entitled doting Thomas evangelicals Thomas Aquinas and Justification now in case you're wondering the topic of ETS this year is justification.

Simple question folks. Why is an apostate? Who is clearly attempting to bring evangelicals into the Catholic faith into the Roman Catholic faith into Romanism itself? Why is he speaking at the Evangelical Theological Society.

Can someone explain this to me? There might be a reason why some of us don't even bother going to this thing anymore. They couldn't get rid of the open theists and now you've got the papists front and center maybe the e part of ETS needs to be removed and Make it the we don't know what in the world.

We are theological society. I think that would be fair now. I know there's plenty of nice folks there I'm sure there's plenty of true believers there and all the rest that stuff but folks it's lost its way and if you can't see that here, I I I don't know I have no way of No way of knowing.

Just just absolutely amazing. It just it just struck me that these two blog articles back-to-back one Coming to Rome next day going to ETS. You're talking about justification. Do you think he's not going to talk about how he thinks the the the evangelical doctrine justification is Inappropriate and unbiblical, of course.

He has Yes, the ecumenical theological society that that's that's how we do it the ecumenical theological society. That's the name and that needs to be changed to yeah I really want to get to this so we'll get to our calls.

We have we have two Skype calls I just have to hold on one from Guatemala which will be interesting to get to but I need to get to this and we Will we will do so. The fellow who claims to be from London, but actually lives in Milwaukee Sent me a Twitter note with this link to Jackie Alnor's website Rapture ready radio, which is very alliterative but Has some other interesting applications to it, but rapture ready radio the November 12th show debating Catholicism and As soon as I read it, I knew I was gonna have to download this program and listen to it debating Roman Catholic doctrines using the Church Fathers ecumenical councils and various creeds is A mental exercise between puffed-up know-it-alls on both sides of the issues.

Notice the very first line is an attack on both non-catholic and Catholic debaters who would engage such issues and Dare to make reference to such things as well history Ecumenical councils various creeds actually debating the history of the church all that is.

They're just mental exercises between puffed-up know-it-alls on both sides of the issues. Now having listened to the program I happen to know the two primary puffed-up know-it-alls that Jackie Alnor makes reference to are myself and To Turretin fam.

Yes our dear soft-spoken Turretin fam. Even though he didn't get quoted directly. We'll play the section that I'll play the section here in a moment I think you'll find it to be somewhat humorous. There are never any winners since both sides in the cockfight claim victory.

I played a clip on today's show of a Protestant the Catholic apologist arguing over solo scriptura the clip by the way. Was Jerry Maddox's cross-examination of me in our? 1996 debate on solo scriptura in New York there's a YouTube of that.

It's funny. They don't play my cross X or the conclusions or anything else is they have to limit it because everybody knows that Jerry's position didn't survive that very well. That's how it goes in the beginning of that YouTube video the Catholic boasted that he won the debate hands down actually that wasn't Jerry.

That posted it Jerry it would would never ever be organized enough to put something like that together. It was somebody else he admitted that the highlights he gathered in YouTube were the slam dunks.

He was able to land and that no doubt his opponent would choose a different set of clips for his own highlights video. You could hear the cheers the Catholic side of the battle of words at the end. Well.

So immediately what you have is a admittedly Biased Section. It's not the whole debate. It's not it's not conclusions based upon looking at the whole debate. It's not conclusions based upon looking at the scriptures were presented or any of the argumentation beginning opening statements anything else.

It is it admittedly by a section, but that proves That all debates are worthless at least in the mind of Jackie Eleanor. What many Protestants don't understand if they have never been a Catholic now remember Jackie Eleanor is a former Catholic so this gives her expertise.

But listen to this thinking. What many Protestants don't understand if they've never been a Catholic is that the everyday Catholic sitting the pew simply never heard of the doctrines their own church teaches.

Rome has dummied down the people. Catholics have turned over those higher things for their hierarchy to handle all they need to do is be faithful to attend Mass and do the day-to-day requirements. Debates with Catholics don't seem to reach the real life of a Catholic who consists of mysterious rituals spooky atmosphere of incense candles statues in the tabernacle monstrance and the host.

Now clearly and obviously There are Catholics exactly like that. There are Catholics who Do not listen to debates they do not care about the teachings of their church. They don't really even care whether what they've been told is true or false.

There's no question about that. But to say that this is all Catholics not only grossly disrespectful, it's just head in the sand ignorance of The reality of what we have going on around us. It ignores the existence of Envoy magazine and Catholic answers and st. Joseph communications and EWTN and all the rest of stuff.

Now your average even your average Catholics is listening to that remains incredibly ignorant of. The other side we've documented this over and over again. All I have to do is go to the Catholic answers forums and the Catholics there are willing to believe anything no matter how absurd No matter how dishonest no matter how obviously false.

They would rather believe that then that there is any critic out there who actually has anything meaningful to say about Roman Catholicism. There's there's no question about that either. But folks I know many a former Roman Catholic Who believed that what they've been taught was true?

Until they heard a Full-bore honest in-depth demonstration that Roman Catholicism is untrue and That its arguments did not hold water and we've seen many of these people. We've not only seen people kept out of Roman Catholicism, but people to come out of Roman Catholicism.

Because of the apologetic work that has been done by many people not just myself and many others William Webster and David King and our own turrets and fan and the the work that they continue to do. We know that we are having an impact in that way so To say that just all Catholics are just you know in this way.

They're just they just don't know they don't know anything about justification. It's just it's just a head-in-the-sand attitude that just ignores the reality of what's out there. I continue on reading a Catholic lives a life of fear never knowing whether they'll be good enough to enter into heaven.

They were taught growing up that if you commit a mortal sin. You will go to hell unless you get to a confessional first and do the prescribed penance. Then you're good to go until you come in another one.

Then you better hope that you don't die before you can get back to that little box of absolution venial sins. Just get you in purgatory. If a Catholic even the Pope claims to be saved with the assurance of heaven according to their church.

They are guilty of the sin of presumption. Well, mainly I mean, but honestly anyone who has listened to my debates, for example, the debates in purgatory. Not only knows all that but knows much more than that much more accurately than that.

Why do venial sins get you into purgatory? Well, it's not actually venial sins again. It gets you into purgatory. It's the temporal punishments of those sins and the temporal punishments left over from the mortal sins.

Those that what create the the impurities that must be purged via satispasio in purgatory. So. You know, okay, that's partially true. Just not a hundred percent true. I Would love to see process scholars direct their efforts to rescue Catholics from their bondage instead of academic exercises of prowess that sheds more heat than light.

Now folks. One of the things I am consistently criticized for by some people and then by a smaller group thanked for is That in the vast majority of my debates in the vast majority of my debates there is a clear and compelling presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ even in debates on subjects such as the Roman Catholic priesthood.

There is still a presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I continue on one winner. I point to in this radio program. Is Jack Chick the cartoonist so many Orthodox Christian scholars love to belittle.

His little cartoon booklets don't beat around the bush or speak with $3 words. You can google the cartoon booklets. I mentioned and see for yourself. What a punch they pack. The first one I mentioned is the death cookie.

That shows how the worship of the host as if it were God. Eucharistic adoration is idolatry. It is used by a church authority to blackmail the faithful because they are not worthy of the gospel. The church teaches that is the method of receiving Jesus in your life by way of the belly and out the usual course if you divide.

If you defy the church and can't get to the host you have been cut off from Jesus himself. They hold Jesus hostage and Then she goes on to talk about more of Jack Chick's stuff. Now, of course we have debated the mass and we have identified Eucharistic adoration as idolatry.

The problem is we just do it by demonstrating that we've listened carefully to what the Roman Catholics say and We accurately accurately represent their position. That's the difference. Jack Chick is right to identify Roman Catholicism as idolatrous.

Jack Chick is wrong to say that someone like myself is going to hell for using a new American Standard Bible and Jack Chick is wrong for ignoring the responses of Roman Catholics and making his own arguments honest now.

Can God use a Jack Chick track? Well He used a Jack Chick track to get me to read the Bible through the first time when I was a teenager and I have said many times that God can draw a very straight line with a crooked stick.

But the reason that I and others Call Jack Chick to be honest is because Christians should be truthful. Should be pretty straightforward, but unfortunately, there's a lot of pragmatists out there That don't get that part.

Christians should be truthful. They should be people who speak the truth in love. That means you accurately represent what your opponent says and Evidently the idea here for Jackie Alnor and others is who cares about accurately representing false religions.

They're false religions after all. If they're false religions, we don't have to worry about accurately representing them. I don't understand that mindset. I never will understand that mindset. People who understand that mindset will never think much of Alpha Omega Ministries.

Because we'll never buy into the sensationalist stuff. We're not going to buy into the well this argument works. Even if you sort of later have to come back to people who are converted because your arguments say what you know.

I wasn't being completely honest with you. I don't understand it. But the fact the matter is Jack Chick uses sensationalism and half-truths and It's the combination of the true things. He says with the half-truths that brings such disrepute upon the truth and When you use that kind of argumentation shallow argumentation that shows not the slightest interest In accurately representing the other side you are creating quote-unquote converts.

That are the single best people prepared to be reverts ending up on EWTN. That's what you're doing. Those are the very people that Carl Keating and Tim Staples Love to run into because they can tear you to shreds.

Any decent Catholic apologists would tear Jackie Alnor to shreds. That's why she won't do debates and that's why she puts down others who do. Because if she were ever to put herself in that position she'd be crushed.

Because the argumentation has to be consistent and from some reason she doesn't feel that's overly important in fact I'm gonna play a clip. Or she criticizes me for emphasizing the solas of the Reformation that doesn't really matter.

Amazing. You think I'm you think I'm making it up? Let me actually plug the computer in so you can hear it. Hey, we got a radio station there for a second. I wonder which is probably the one right next door here probably.

Anyway. Let's let's listen to a couple of clips from Jackie Alnor's program here to give you an idea. This was from Friday's program, so this was just a few days ago. Here's here's Jackie Alnor.

He used to say that some things create more more heat than light. And I don't even think they did any heat or light to tell you the truth. You know debating such things as as you know imputation justification papal infallibility.

So as a former Roman Catholic those ideas. That didn't. That didn't fit in with my everyday responsibility to be at Mass Every week because if I failed to I would go to hell. I never thought about that as a Catholic.

What Catholics could be reached by talking about those subjects. A you know. It's like you know as. These debates went on. I don't think they swayed anybody on either side to tell you the truth.

Because a Catholic. By the way, that's just obviously not true. I mean we we know. We know of people going both directions, which I have mentioned many times is exactly what I expect. We know of people who have been brought out of Roman Catholicism have received a glorious salvation and are firm in their faith as they.

They understand why the Solas are important. They understand my solo scripture and solo FIDE and solo gratia are important. They have a firm foundation and they've remained faithful for years on end. But I know of people who've gone into Roman Catholicism because of debates and that should not surprise you.

The lost person is attracted to false religion and the Hypocrite who pretends to be an evangelical but isn't Will be attracted by Romanism. Should not surprise anybody. Are there people on both sides who do not listen to anything that's being said in the debate other than the cheer of their side.

Of course said that a million times. Those aren't the people I debate for anyways.

To To the want to be the ones to understand it and all things the Catholic person Just you know goes about their business and they're the laity and You know the doctrine of the Nicolaitans the the power over the people that that the Catholic hierarchy imposes the the regular people.

Then she goes into a thing where she goes after Mitch Pacwa and says Mitch Pacwa was arrogant when he talked to her. And and stuff like that and I was not Ever a part of her conversation with Mitch Pacwa.

Mitch has never been that way with me. But be that as it may goes into that. Let's let's continue on a little later on the program.

In verse 12 and whoever exalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted. Because truly when you watch these debates like the ones between Pacwa and Martin Or or James is another one that does a lot of these debates.

You just see a Puffed up prideful people. I mean knowledge puffs up and I'm not saying these men aren't knowledgeable in their own Angle on things because they are. It's like an academic scholastic to get into these debates.

But how to see more Discussions with the things that they can't go through day to day being.

Those things by the way, the cutting in and out was in the was in the recording that says that's that was that was the way It was recorded. There's nothing I can do about it. But there I'm puffed up and these are just academic exercises.

Anyone who has actually listened to the about 40 debates that I've done with Roman Catholics and recognizes how many times I have brought forward the gospel of peace and and directed people To to faith in Jesus Christ knows that either Jackie Allen or hasn't listened to them or just isn't being fair one of the two.

But given again that she's going to be promoting Jack check you to get the idea. I understand anyone who proposed Jack chick is not going to find an Honest approach that actually accurately represents the other side to be on any subject to be.

One that's going to be Commendable things that never get touched when you people like James white will go to. They want all the solos. Oh solo scriptura solo CD and all of these other ones, you know that they want to debate and No one is.

Even they use big words these big two-dollar words that people don't understand. You're really not communicating.

Yeah, really not communicating. I'm often told that no one has any idea what in the world I'm saying. No, just the opposite is true. But but beyond that. The solos of the Reformation are our $2 words.

Or $3 words really? Justification by faith. Just. Grace alone scripture alone. This is this is some highfalutin concept. It's the very foundation of the gospel. What are you delivering to Roman Catholics if you're not delivering that?

You know what? It sounds like to me is it sounds like she's reading the titles. She's simply looking at the titles of the debates and making judgments based on I. I don't know maybe but I.

It still amazes me that anyone Who calls himself a Protestant would would think that the promotion of the solos is somehow Just a scholarly thing. It's a puffed-up thing.

But Jesus showed how the greatest among you would be the servant the lack of being puffed up and He said woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you Shut up the kingdom of heaven against men for you neither go in yours.

Nor do you allow those who are entering in to go in?

But it's hard to avoid the conclusion that maybe she's actually applying this to me. I mean, I know she's applying it to the Roman Catholics. But it would be sad to think that this was actually being applied by anyone on this side of the Tiber River.

You know, but It's a possibility. Woe to you scribes Pharisees hypocrites for you devour widows houses and anyway, let Let's let's move this one.

Blew me away. Finally she got around to give you some examples and Here's the first example. Listen to this and and see if the term fair or Accurate or meaningful comes into your thinking on this one.

I just wanted to play this clip.

That really shows just Listening to how these debates sound. I want to just play this little one-minute clip of Pick up a debate and I just want you to listen and see does this sound like the kind of thing that is Tugging people's hearts that's going to reach out to people to bring them to repentance to bring them to the throne of God.

It just sounds like so much scholastic academic mind-bending sort of thing of spiritual impulse to me.

Now before she's about to play it. We're right there. But notice the standard. It needs to tug at the heart. Tug at the heart. See folks theology matters and You're not listening to a person who has reformed in their theology in any way shape or form.

So theology matters and You can present the gospel in all of its fullness and trust the Holy Spirit to witness the truth the Word of God. But you need that's not enough you need to tug at the heart and now here's the first example the Jackie Eleanor gives of puffed up Debating.

We just play you this.

Welcome to the papal infallibility debate. The debate will attempt to answer the following. Was Vatican one correct. Regarding papal infallibility I would have put our William Albrecht taking the affirmative position and tourism fan taking the negative position.

William Albrecht is a Roman Catholic apologist who runs youtube .com slash GNR head and Catholic legate blogspot .com. He's also a member of the Catholic legate apologetics organization Catholic Legate calm.

Turton fan is a reformed apologist who runs turf and fan dot blogspot .com Youtube .com slash turf and fan and box patristica dot blogspot .com. He's also a contributor at Alpha and Omega ministries. A on my end org.

My name is Matthew Langford the moderator for the debate. The debate will last about 120 minutes in length and we'll have the following format. Affirmative constructive 20 minutes negative. Constructive 20 minutes negative cross-examination of affirmative 20 minutes examination of negative 20 minutes negative recross examination of affirmative 10 minutes affirmative recross examination of negative 10 minutes negative Conclusion 10 minutes and the affirmative conclusion 10 minutes now.

Typical of these debates. I have seen so many of that. I really think a they, you know, maybe they might bring some, you know, highbrow intellectual into thinking through some of these topics, but it really doesn't get down to the everyday place where the people are, especially when it comes to Roman Catholicism.

Now, may I just ask a simple question? What did that have to do with the debate? That was the introduction! It was the moderator providing an overview of what the format of the debate was going to be.

It wasn't even... I mean, the rest of the debate could have been the most simple down-to-earth discussion on the planet, and it wouldn't matter because it was just the introduction of the debaters and the format of the debate.

When I heard that, I was just like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. And it just went on from there. Like I said, played the section from the Matitix debate, and then went on to talk about how wonderful Jack Chick is, and how people shouldn't be so mean to Jack Chick, and all the rest of that stuff.

And you know, the funny thing is, it's Jack Yalnor's husband who has criticized me for going to Columbia Evangelical Seminary and doing my doctoral work there. So, which is it? I'm not scholarly enough, or I'm too scholarly?

Which one is it? They can't figure that part out. I was like, oh my goodness. But the humor of all of that aside, the important thing that needs to be emphasized here is, folks, when you do not do apologetics in a biblical way...

When I say biblical way, I mean holding to biblical standards of truthfulness. Accurately representing the truth. When you know what the truth of the other side is, and you purposefully seek to misrepresent the other side, you are not acting in a Christian way.

Now, that separates apologists right and left right there. There are a lot of things that divide apologists. I mean, what you believe will determine your method of apologetics. But even beyond that, when you come to your representation of the other side, if you're going to be a Christian apologist, then you must represent what the other side actually believes.

And when you know that there is a division on the other side, or that there are nuances of meaning on the other side, or there's a stronger argument on the other side, and you specifically, purposefully dumb that down, you refuse to accurately represent what the other side has to say, you are not acting as a Christian in that way.

That's not how Christian apologetics is done. And that's the problem with Jack Chick. His information is just simply bogus. And when you link bogus information with the truth, you damage the truth. Remember Ergon Kanner, folks?

I realize this name has disappeared from most people's thinking, and all is well again, and no one cares that he's still bopping around the country with Norm Geisler and the leadership of Calvary Chapel doing his thing.

But what was the big problem with Ergon Kanner? It wasn't the things he was saying about Islam, as far as what they believed about Jesus or something were necessarily always wrong. It was that they were inaccurate at times.

It was the lies that he was associating with the true statements. It was, well, I debated Shabir Ali, and I debated Abdul Salib, and they both said this about the atonement of Christ, and that's wrong.

Well, it's a lie that he ever debated Shabir Ali. It's a lie that he ever debated Abdul Salib. And therefore, what they said doesn't exist, and even if it does represent what Muslims believe, you have now associated a lie with the truth of the gospel, and you bring tremendous disrespect upon the gospel when you do this.

And that's Jack Chick's problem, is that he uses sensationalistic argumentation that the Catholics have torn apart, demonstrated to be untruthful, and when you present that to someone as if it's representative of the gospel, you are saying them up not only to remain within Roman Catholicism, but if you're giving it to Protestants, you're saying them up to become Roman Catholics.

That's the problem. And so, there is a fundamental difference in how we approach doing apologetics, and obviously how Jackie Allinore does, and Jack Chick does, and there is a reason why Catholic answers and people like Carl Keating focus upon those folks and avoid us like the plague, because it's easy to respond to them.

It's easy to point out the inconsistencies. It's easy to say, hey, if you're a Christian, you shouldn't be doing this kind of stuff. That's simple. It's a little more difficult when someone has actually accurately represented your position.

877 -753 -3341 is the phone number, and we're going to go to our calls now. And the first caller in was Chris in Bellevue. Hi, Chris. Hi, Dr. White.

Thanks for taking my call. Yes, sir. What's up? I have a question about the word draws in John 644. I think it's halkuo in the Greek. I've, for a long time now, found this to be arguably the most powerful evidence in favor of the reform doctrine, and I've often centered on that word and how it's used elsewhere in the New Testament and even outside of the Bible.