August 12, 2019 Show with Bruce Bennett on “Why Does it Matter if Professing Christians Claim to be Under the Authority of an Infallible Vicar of Christ (& Should Protestant Christians Share Spiritual Fellowship With Them)?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 12th day of August 2019.

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I'm thrilled to have back on the program, dear friend of mine for many years, Pastor Bruce Bennett, who ministers at the

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Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and today we are going to be discussing the theme,

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Why does it matter if professing Christians claim to be under the authority of an infallible vicar of Christ, and should

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Protestant Christians share spiritual fellowship with them? And we're also going to be discussing an upcoming debate that Pastor Bruce is having with a

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Roman Catholic apologist in September at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

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But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Bruce Bennett. Good afternoon,

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Chris. How are you? I'm doing well, thanks be to God. And looking forward to our discussion today.

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Before we go into the heart of the matter, tell our listeners something about Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

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Okay, so we're a Christ -exalting, God -centered, Spirit -filled church that looks to bring the doctrines of grace and the fullness of the

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Spirit together in our ministry here in mid -Suffolk County, Long Island, and we are located in Farmingville.

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We have many different ministries to the various age groups of folks that we hope to have come eventually into our church and that we serve currently.

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Among those ministries is a discipleship ministry, which includes having debates with those who would oppose clear scriptural truths such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus, and Sola Deo Gloria.

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And, of course, this Roman Catholic debate coming up is just one means of getting the truths of God's Word out to our community, which is predominantly

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Roman Catholic. For folks who aren't familiar with the New York City metro area, especially Long Island, it has a lot of Catholics in it, well over half of the folks in this area, something like 65 percent, profess to be

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Roman Catholic. So it's a mission field in that regard, and even the

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Protestants here, many of them are liberal. So we're just looking to see God's glorious message of the grace of Christ revealed to His people and His Word proclaimed in this area.

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So that's who we are. Yeah, and I've noticed over the years growing up on Long Island that the further you go out east, the more frequently you will see very liberal mainline apostate churches, like the

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Unitarian Universalist churches and other of the real extreme leftist churches.

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They seem to increase the further out east you go. Yeah, I think there is a pattern of that.

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That's a good point. So whether it's out east or in the mid -area of Suffolk, folks are welcome to join us in our various ministries.

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And, well, tell us now about this debate that you're having with Matthew Luke Broderick, who is a

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Roman Catholic apologist. So this is actually the fourth in a series of debates we've had.

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We had one on Solskjaer IV, the first one. The second was on Mary, her supposed sinlessness and assumption.

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The last one we had was on Purgatory back in the spring, so this will be our fourth one. And the question is, in this debate, is the office of the

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Pope biblical? And as you, in your introduction, reminded your listening audience, that, in fact, anybody who thinks that the office of Apostle, which is the office that they're representing here as the papacy, is an extant office that's continuing past the last

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Apostle, who was John, who died around 100 AD, is making a serious error in elevating, invariably, a man.

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It doesn't matter who the man is. The Mormons have their own living apostolic office. But whether it's

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Rome's living apostolic office, or even in the Pentecostal world, they have supposed apostles running around speaking for God.

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Whoever claims to speak for God outside of his word is making a grave error. And we know that the

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Scripture is the final sole authority for faith and life.

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So we want to remind our Catholic neighbors of that fact, and call them to repent of holding such a view, especially since the office has committed so many errors over the two millennia, approximately, that Rome claims to have had it represented, the church led by this supposed

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Pope, the office of the papacy. So that's going to be the issue we deal with.

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And that debate is Saturday, September 7th, 6 .30pm

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at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. We'll be announcing this information later, but just in case you'd like to jot it down now, the website to find out more details is wotchurch .com.

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W -O -T -church .com. W -O -T stands for Word of Truth. W -O -T -church .com.

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And also you could call 631 -806 -0614. 631 -806 -0614.

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Well, before we even go into the actual question of our program today, why does it matter if professing

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Christians claim to be under the authority of an infallible vicar of Christ, and should Protestant Christians share spiritual fellowship with them, give us a summary of what the

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Catholic Church means by having a Pope, by having an infallible vicar of Christ.

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There is confusion not only amongst Protestants about this, but even amongst Roman Catholics. I am fairly certain that the majority of Catholics are very confused and are very misinformed about what they are supposed to view or think or believe or teach about their own

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Pope. One misconception that some people may have, whether Catholic or Protestant, is that he is considered always infallible, that he can never do anything wrong, which would really border on, if not crossing the border of claiming sinlessness.

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Now, that is not what the dogmatic description of the Pope is.

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So, if you could fill us in on a summary of what the actual Pope is, according, obviously, to the

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Roman Catholic Church, Council of Trent, etc. So, the office of the

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Pope, as defined by the various councils, and you'll find it finally systematized in the Catechism of the

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Catholic Church, which is their unofficial summary of doctrine, for the layman at least, anyway.

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But, basically, it goes back to supposedly Christ giving to Peter the charge in Matthew 16, verses 16 -19, of the office of the

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Pope, where they think that, upon Peter, the Church was going to be founded upon.

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And this patrine office, this calling of Peter to be the foundational rock, as it were, in their mind, undergirding the

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Church, was going to have a list of successors after Peter, although it's strangely absent from any text, and Matthew 16 is not saying that.

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We'll get to that later, perhaps. But, the successors of this patrine office, this office that supposedly would be foundational in undergirding the

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Church, would include the power to guide the

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Catholic faithful in matters of faith and doctrine, as to ultimately speaking for God Himself, in what we would call the

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Vicar of Christ, or the Spokesman of Christ. He could actually speak for God in matters of faith and morality, from the chair of Peter, ex cathedra, that would be in Latin.

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If he's speaking in that manner, infallibly, then what he says is binding.

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And it's as if an apostle is adding another chapter to the Bible. So, for example, Revelation 23, verse 1, and so on, we all know that the

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Scripture ends in Revelation 23, verse 21. In a sense, it would be the continuation of the Bible being written, because God would be speaking infallibly.

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And that's the key difference. So, you know, some Protestants would believe that God is speaking today, but they wouldn't say it's infallible.

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They would say that what you're sensing, God speaking to your heart, has to be tested with the Word. They would say, no, what the

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Pope says is infallible, and you have to listen to it. If he declares something ex cathedra or ex cathedra.

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Right, exactly, right from the chair of Peter, in that capacity, correct. In his prudential judgments, in his prudential statements, which the current

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Pope has said many things that seemingly are awry of any assemblage of Catholic doctrine and biblical doctrine, for example, endorsing homosexuality, as it were, or even casting doubt on hell and things like this.

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You know, the Catholic apologists are always on the defense of saying, oh, that's just his prudential statement, that's just his own opinion.

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It's not to be taken as an ex cathedra statement, as binding on the faithful. They always remind the

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Catholics of this, and so on. So yes, and it's only happened officially once, in 1950, the

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Assumption of the Virgin Mary, and then two or three times prior to that. So it's actually something that's been used on a very limited basis.

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But they also give the Pope authority to lead the church councils and lead the church as the overseeing shepherd over all of the cardinals, the bishops, the archbishops, the priests.

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So he also acts ex officio as the leader of all of the clergy.

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So he can make directives, he can make executive orders that also charge these various high offices, the clergy as they're called, with various role assignments, tweaking of certain procedures, protocols.

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And to some degree, even a final commentator on understanding the catechism or official doctrinal statements that have come from other councils or other papal ex cathedra statements.

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So in a sense, he kind of acts as the great overseeing pastor, if you will, for Catholic faithful as well.

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And it may surprise many of our listeners, both Catholic and Protestant, that the dogma of papal infallibility was not declared officially until 1870.

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It was that recent in history that this became dogma of the Church of Rome. Now, of course,

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Roman Catholics will say, well, just because it was made dogma in 1870 doesn't mean it wasn't always believed before then.

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Every single debate I have seen that involved the papacy, where there was a knowledgeable historian who was a

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Protestant Christian involved, like Dr. James R. White or others, clearly demonstrated that this was not anywhere to be seen in the early centuries of the church.

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And to claim it was the belief of the church, going all the way back to Peter himself, is really absurd.

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There's nothing in the annals of church history that would say that the church fathers actually believed in the infallibility of the

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Bishop of Rome. Oh, without a doubt, Chris.

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There's not only a dearth of references in the patristics, you know, the anti -Nicene

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Fathers, the post -Nicene Fathers. The few that seem to reference the Pope wouldn't even call it that.

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They would just simply say the Bishop of Rome. And they would give him, in some cases, yes, primacy among the other bishops.

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The chief bishoprics at the time were Antioch and Alexandria. Later, Constantinople takes, well,

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Byzantium, which is known as Constantinople, becomes another bishopric.

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But you don't really see this. And a couple of fathers, yes, references.

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Others don't. Others, like Augustine, actually, look at Matthew 16 as it should be taken, which is the rock there, which

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Peter is called the Rock, Petra. But he's making a reference to the larger rock,

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Petra, Jesus', of revelation that Peter is receiving from the

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Holy Spirit. And upon this rock of revelation, he's going to build his church. In other words, God is the rock and his revelation.

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And that's the church he's going to be built on. And Augustine actually affirms that. The funny thing is, the grandiose doctor of the

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Roman Catholic Church, St. Augustine, is actually the biggest opponent when it comes to the papacy.

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So, yeah, the fathers, and this is true of many doctrines, were completely in disarray on many, many doctrines.

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You can get the fathers to support you on anything, in terms of the first five centuries of the

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Church. But even the ones that do seem to indicate that the primate of Rome or the bishop of Rome is on a higher level in terms of authority than the other bishoprics of the ancient world, the

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Roman Empire at the time. They're not even clear with that as well.

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They're just saying that it seems like he has a little more power. So this idea that he speaks infallibly, like you said, didn't come until 1870.

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Even though there were a couple of papal bulls that had the effect of that, which were later recognized as infallible statements.

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But this was not recognized at all. In fact, in the first nine centuries, there were competing offices for who was the superior.

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Sometimes the Antiochian bishop was considered the supreme. Sometimes the Alexandrian bishop was considered supreme.

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And fathers you could support on different sides. Remember, the Eastern Orthodox Church to this day does not officially recognize the papacy as the highest bishop or highest representative in terms of authority for the

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Christian Church. They have their own patriarchates, their own patriarchs in various districts, and they would say that they would be the highest official in their given geographies.

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So even they, and they go back to supposedly the first century as well in terms of their own derivation.

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But I would argue as a Protestant that in fact it's really us who just go by scripture alone and don't submit to any unbiblical offices.

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The only two offices the scripture mentions in terms of authority would be the elder office, also called bishop, as an overseeing type of elder.

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You know, episkopos, but presbyteros would be elder. And then deaconess, the deaconess office or the deacon office would be the only offices that would be recognized as having authority, but not infallible authority by any means.

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Not an errant infallible authority that the Pope has been granted under this doctrine of papal infallibility, like you said, which was officially dogmatized in 1870.

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And you mentioned Alexandria a few moments ago. It's interesting that the fourth century hero of the

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Christian faith embraced by not only Roman Catholics, but Eastern Orthodox and Evangelical Christians, perhaps especially

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Reformed Christians, that fourth century hero, Athanasius of Alexandria, when he was battling with the majority of the church over the deity of Christ, when the majority of the church had succumbed to the heresy of Arianism, denying the deity of Jesus Christ, Athanasius appealed to the scriptures for his proof.

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He never caved in under any weight of so -called authority of bishops over him or a bishop of Rome or a

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Pope. He went to the scriptures and he battled with them using the scriptures as his weapon.

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Yeah, and so did the other bishops that assembled at Nicaea, for example, in 325, where you had the first real major composition on the

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Trinity and on the deity of Christ. So I think that's a really good point to be noted.

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You just don't see any hard and fast evidence of any Pope, as we would refer to him now, you know, bishop of Rome at that time, being known to have this super power, as it were, this super anointing from God, you know, where they're, through sacerdotalism, going to be bringing the rest of the church into subjection through some type of divine mandate through their own lips or writings.

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It just doesn't really occur until after, actually, the 12th century.

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So you don't even see any semblance before that. Well, I'm going to leave most of your argumentation to disprove the existence of a

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Pope for your debate in September. Today we are mainly discussing, why does this even matter?

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You will have today Southern Baptists like Rick Warren, who actually calls

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Pope Francis his Pope. You'll have other evangelicals who are involved in modern ecumenism, linking arms with Rome, and they will view their differences with Roman Catholics over the papacy as being on a tertiary or lower level of importance.

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They will really give it no more importance than the in -house debate that evangelicals have with one another over, let's say, infant baptism versus believer -only baptism, or the sign gifts, are they perpetual today, or eschatological differences, amillennial versus postmillennial versus premillennial, etc.,

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etc. So this is a very rampant view today. You have many evangelicals not wanting to openly declare that our friends in the

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Roman Catholic Church are guilty of heresy, and that the Church of Rome itself is a false church. There's a lot of hesitation to do that, even amongst people that I look up to as theologians and scholars and historians.

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I am very amazed how often on my own show a guest that I am interviewing will surprise me out of left field by making statements like, well, our

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Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, and I'll have to stop them and say, well, let me just clarify something here.

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I do believe that there are Roman Catholics who are indeed my brothers and sisters in Christ, but that is because they actually, in spite of the dogma of the

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Church of Rome, they actually believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is accurately taught in the scriptures, whether they do that because they're ignorant of what their own church teaches about the gospel, or whether they are clinging to the gospel in defiance to their own church and remaining there as some kind of an example, or just because they're afraid of causing a split in their marriage or family, whatever the case is.

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I do believe that there is a remnant of true, regenerate people in the

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Roman Catholic Church, but I will never use a flippant statement like that just in a casual fashion, saying our

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Catholic brothers and sisters, our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, because if you believe in the dogmas of Rome, I do not believe.

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When I say the dogmas of Rome, let me step back a couple of steps. I mean, the uniquely

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Roman Catholic dogmas of Rome that oppose the gospel of the

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Reformation, if you believe in those and embrace those and teach those, then you cannot be a regenerate person.

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Having said that, what is your reaction to what I said? Absolutely concur. The gospel of Rome is a false gospel.

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It takes works and puts them on par with faith. The Scripture is very clear that it was saved by faith alone, by God's grace alone, and Christ alone.

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And anyone who adds to this, as Paul says in Galatians 1 .8 and verse 9, is under anathema.

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He repeats it twice. I say to you, if anyone preaches the gospel other than the one preached to you, whether it's us or an angel from heaven, let him be anathema.

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He says it twice, Galatians 1 .8 and 9. So the Apostle Paul already has anathematized the

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Roman gospel, and for a believer to embrace them, they would be going against that anathema.

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You mean the Council of Trent anathematized the Protestant gospel? Yeah, but long before the

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Catholics anathematized evangelicals, Paul already anathematized the Catholics.

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Oh, I thought you said the Council of Trent, I'm sorry. Right, but Paul already beat them in their own game.

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Right, when he was anathematizing the Judaizers, the Roman Catholic Church would be guilty of the same error.

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And even though it would be a different flavor of that heresy, but it is still adding works to faith for justification.

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Precisely, precisely my point. But Paul already beat them at their game. So what they're trying to do is to catch up with what

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Paul did, but they're on the wrong side of Paul. And whether it be N .T.

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Wright or some other person trying to get a new perspective of Paul or whatever, Paul's writings are crystal clear, especially in Galatians and Romans regarding the gospel.

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And again, it's the purity of God's saving grace that's revealed by faith in Christ, and it's by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, period.

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And that's what separates us. And the final thing that separates us is we don't agree on who the final authority is.

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They would say the final authority is the magisterium, which is the three -legged stool of the Pope in conjunction with councils, in conjunction with what they would call the traditions or magisterium of the

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Church over time. And the Pope has the final say, ultimately, on all that.

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So we would say, no, the final authority is Scripture alone. It's God's word is the absolute final authority, because the only objective means of understanding truth, people's opinions change, you have different popes saying different things over time, the councils have contradicted themselves, and so on.

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So again, they have a false gospel, and they've anathematized themselves, according to Paul.

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Hey, man, and one thing that I'd like to say, a caveat here, because there may be many people misunderstanding what

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I'm saying, especially Roman Catholics. Number one, I am not saying that I or Protestant people, and of course,

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Protestant is a broad term, even if I primarily or exclusively am referring to regenerate, born -again people, they are not better than Roman Catholics in many spheres of life.

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I know Roman Catholics whose company I prefer over my own born -again brothers and sisters in Christ.

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I know Roman Catholics who are, in many areas of life, superior to me.

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They've demonstrated just a better, perhaps, patience and tenderness and compassion on occasion to family, friends, and loved ones.

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They might be better than us if you take a case -by -case comparison.

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You may have Roman Catholics who are better spouses to their own spouses than many

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Protestants are, better parents to their children than many Protestants are. So this has nothing to do with we think we're better than they are.

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We are just saying something very important, that they have a false hope.

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They are believing in, if they are indeed faithful to the uniquely Roman Catholic dogmas of Rome, they are trusting in something that is damning and false, and we who profess to love them must do all that we can to warn them about this in love and to be used of God to rescue them out of this false belief system.

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When you disagree with somebody, it doesn't mean you hate them automatically. Of course, there are hateful people who hate

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Roman Catholics, and there are hateful Roman Catholics who hate Protestants. But this has nothing to do with a superiority contest as far as who we are innately as human beings, as husbands, wives, parents, as siblings, as friends, as citizens, as employees and employers.

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This has to do with the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And would you basically concur with what

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I just said? A hundred percent, Chris. A hundred percent. In fact, I know some believers that actually go to a

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Catholic church as missionaries. They go there to try to win other Catholics to Christ. And the amazing aspect of the evangelical church impacting the

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Catholic church is especially seen in the United States, where I know quite a few people that actually,

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I believe, are regenerate and for reasons of ignorance remain in the

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Catholic church. So whether people do it deliberately or they're there unknowingly, really not knowing what they're being taught, just because you go to a place that calls itself a

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Roman Catholic church doesn't mean you agree with its actual core dogmas and doctrines.

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Like you said, if they do, then they disqualify themselves from the kingdom because it's teaching a false gospel and false authority.

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But there are many who don't realize that. Or they're just there as missionaries. I even know a guy, believe it or not, who went into a

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Catholic seminary to become a Roman Catholic priest to reach the Catholics. Now, I would have to sit down and speak with somebody to be totally clear why they're doing that.

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I personally do not believe that a person should be a member of the

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Roman Catholic church if they are truly born again. They certainly cannot partake in the so -called sacrament of the

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Mass without being guilty of participating in an idolatrous rite.

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I think it's one thing to be visiting a Roman Catholic church so you have an opportunity, in an appropriate fashion, to evangelize people through friendships that you develop.

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But I don't think that there is any reason that is biblically sound where a person would be a member of the

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Roman Catholic church. Yeah, I agree with you.

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I think some people just go there out of ignorance. They're not aware of what the Mass actually stands for.

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I know myself as a former Roman Catholic. I didn't know that when the priest was confecting the

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Eucharist that it literally became the body, soul, and divinity of Jesus. It was to be worshipped.

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A little piece of bread. Well, I was raised Roman Catholic and was an altar boy, and I knew as much that my church was teaching me it became the physical body and blood of Christ.

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According to them, of course. I didn't really grasp the full concept of body, soul, and divinity, as you were saying.

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But I did know that this was supposed to be the real body and blood of Christ.

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Yeah, I mean, I was never instructed to that. I went to the religious instructions all my life. I was born and raised

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Catholic. I didn't become a Christian until I was 18, so I had no idea. Again, through the sacerdotal properties, the supposed sacerdotal properties that the priest was given, ultimately going back to the

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Pope, by the way, because they're anointed, they're given a blessing from the bishop, and the bishop gets it from the archbishop, gets it from the cardinal, gets it from the

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Pope, ultimately. And this unbreakable chain of operatio out of the office, so to speak, allows the priest to get before the congregation.

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As he pronounces the word, hoc est corpus meum, this is the idea of let the spread become the body of God or the body of Christ.

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This is the body of Christ. I had no idea. I just had no idea about it.

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So I think in people's ignorance, I think a good kind of analogy to this is how

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Arminians, I was an Arminian for 14 years, and I insisted that people were saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone.

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But I didn't understand what grace and faith really meant. I didn't know that faith was a gift that was given supernaturally to God.

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By the way, wasn't my, or weren't, I should say, my debates that I organized with Dr.

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James R. White on Long Island used of God to draw you into the doctrines of grace? I was almost there, yes.

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Yeah, I thought that you were an Arminian Pentecostal when I first met you. Yes, I was, but I was well on my way.

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I was always turning second base or maybe even third base. But, yeah, it was definitely a catalyst for sure, and definitely the idea of debating was heavily influenced by Dr.

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White, who I had the pleasure of actually picking up at JFK Airport when he was coming out for one of his conferences out to eastern

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Long Island, working with one of the church plants that Grace Reformed had planted out east. And I got to spend well over an hour and a half with him, and he's the minister at the church where I was raised up as a pastor,

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Grace Gospel Church, and so on. So he was a big influence, and I continue to feel led to these debates.

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I think debates are very, very valuable tools, both for evangelism and discipleship in the body, and I encourage others listening to this broadcast to consider doing them if they feel so led and gifted.

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Yeah, one thing I just want to mention before we go to our first break, one very pivotal, important moment in Dr.

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James R. White's history of Long Island New York debates with Roman Catholics that I arranged was during the

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Q &A during one of his debates with Mitch Pacwa, who is a

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Jesuit priest. Many may recognize that name from EWTN. The Eternal Word Television Network.

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Mitch Pacwa, although I believe that much of what he believes and teaches is false, he is a wonderful man, and a very extremely likable man.

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And he is one debater that I am very certain does not purposefully lie during his debates.

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What I mean by that is I think that when he is defending something that is biblically proven to be untrue,

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I don't think that he is conscious of that and using debate tricks in order to mask that fact.

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He seems to be a palpably honest man, even though he has himself deceived on many things.

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And I enjoy his company. He's a wonderful guy. But during the Q &A,

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Mitch Pacwa asked James White, Do you consider me your brother?

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And James very calmly said, Do you believe in the dogmas of the

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Council of Trent? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he was especially referring, as I said earlier, to those things that are uniquely

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Roman Catholic because there are things that were declared at Trent. There are things believed by those at Trent that we would even believe.

36:17

And Mitch Pacwa said, Yes, I do. And James White just calmly and politely said,

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There is no hope in that gospel. And I think that that was a great way to answer that question.

36:30

But we have to go now to our first station break, if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

36:39

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, your country of residence if you live outside the

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two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Wyden of First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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If you live on Long Island or if you're visiting the metropolitan New York area, I invite you to join us for worship at The Haven on Sundays at 4 .30

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p .m., 33 Bayshore Road, Deer Park, New York. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen.

45:15

If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

45:21

We are addressing the theme, Why does it matter if professing Christians claim to be under the authority of an infallible vicar of Christ, and should

45:30

Protestant Christians share spiritual fellowship with them? We're also discussing the upcoming debate at Word of Truth Church that Pastor Bruce Bennett is having with a

45:40

Roman Catholic apologist, Matthew Luke Broderick, on the theme, Is the

45:46

Office of Pope Biblical? If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

45:51

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

46:01

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

46:08

We have a question from Kevin in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

46:14

And Kevin asks, Even if the Bishop of Rome did not claim his own infallibility, are

46:24

Christians still bound to obey him, as the claim would still arise that they are the true successor of Peter?

46:34

Well, that's an odd question to ask to Protestants, because we would reject even the notion that a current -day papacy is in the succession of the

46:49

Apostle Peter. But if you could answer that question, I guess it would probably be better if we had

46:56

Matthew Luke Broderick to answer that question. But, Pastor Bruce?

47:03

So, any type of authority has to ultimately be questioned as to its source.

47:09

You know, how do you know what you know? How do you know what you know is true? And that's ultimately going to determine whether it's valid or not.

47:17

So, if a human is proclaiming something that cannot be reviewed, cannot be peer -reviewed with Scripture, which is the only objective revelation of truth that God has given us, then that claim has to be rejected.

47:35

So, when Rome, or it could be even the Mormons, it could be even a

47:41

Pentecostal who claims that they're hearing from God, if they're claiming that God is saying something, and it can't be related to the

47:51

Word of God, then it must be rejected. Because the Word of God is the ultimate source of truth.

47:58

So, we have to go back to Scripture. Even Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5, he says,

48:04

Don't despise prophecy, but test all things. Test all the words that you may think are being given divinely from a human speaker.

48:12

So, if something is subject to being tested, nobody, it doesn't matter what title you give him, whether it's the

48:20

Pope, a Bishop, Archbishop, etc., it doesn't matter what he claims or what his title is.

48:25

If it doesn't comport to Scripture, it is not true. It is not of God.

48:33

And one thing that's interesting is that D .A.

48:38

Carson, who is an evangelical Protestant, a Calvinistic Baptist, who

48:46

I consider to be one of my modern day heroes of the faith, I truly love and enjoy hearing

48:52

Dr. Carson preach and teach. I get great benefit from him.

49:00

But, he has a very unusual position as a Protestant. He actually believes that the rock that Christ was speaking about in Matthew 16 is

49:15

Peter. But, he said there's nothing in the text that would, by virtue of that, give to Peter the powers that the papacy is alleged to have.

49:37

And, he said there's nothing in there about any kind of succession either. Where, for centuries and centuries and millennia, you will have people getting that office.

49:52

And, of course, Dr. Carson wasn't saying it was an office. But, even that title of the rock, that that would be something that would be perpetually passed on as the

50:03

Church of Rome raises to authority new popes when one dies or steps down, as we had happen with Bishop Bratzinger, who became

50:18

Pope and stepped down. So, the whole concept of succession cannot even, in anybody's wild imagination, be accurately exegeted from that text in any way, shape, or form, can it?

50:36

There's a surprising amount of evangelical expositors who interpret Matthew 16, 17 in the same manner.

50:46

So, in fact, it's not as unusual as you think. I was actually surprised and prepared to debate how many actually believe that.

50:53

But, like... It's certainly not a majority view, by any stretch of the imagination. It's not, but there are quite a few, a surprising amount, that actually do interpret

51:02

Petros there. As Peter is the rock that Jesus is referring to.

51:09

However, as you said, minority. And second of all, none of them, and they're in concurrence with Carson here, none of them would affirm

51:16

Rome's view that, again, there's no idea of the power or succession being hinted at in that text.

51:24

I don't look at it the same way as Carson and these others do. I would say that Peter, Jesus is using a wordplay, referring back to Isaiah 51, where it says,

51:34

Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, you who seek the Lord, look to the rock from which you were cut, and to the quarry from which you were hewn.

51:42

And I would see that, as a metaphor, Peter being called Petros, is not the same as Petra, and upon this rock.

51:51

I say to you, you are Peter, that's Petros, and upon this rock, Petra. One's masculine, one's feminine.

51:57

I think Jesus is using a wordplay. But he's referring to the most commonly referred to rock throughout the

52:04

Old Testament, especially Jesus, of course, is that rock, who actually is explicitly referenced in terms of the wanderings in Israel, the rock that followed the people of God in 1

52:17

Corinthians 10 and so on. But right here in Isaiah 51, you see a really good idea of it, in that, you know, who will we regenerate from?

52:24

We'll regenerate from the Spirit. The Spirit gives birth to the Spirit. It's the Spirit of God that actually revealed to Peter, you know, flesh and blood, and I reveal it to my

52:32

Father in Heaven. So, in that sense, you know, you're getting the true, rich meaning there, that God is the rock.

52:40

It's the rock of revelation that comes from God Himself, comes from the Holy Spirit, that's actually divulging to Peter and the rest of the apostolic band, minus Judas Iscariot, because he's not among the elect.

52:54

They're all getting the same revelation from the rock, which is Christ through the person of the

52:59

Holy Spirit. So, Carson may be onto something. I'm not there yet in terms of that exegesis, but I think it's just the wordplay.

53:09

I wouldn't drive too much meaning on it. A lot of fundamentalists would just say, oh, Petra and Petros is the difference, and we can just leave it at that.

53:17

It's a little more nuanced than that, because Petros is used at other times to be a foundational rock, and so is

53:23

Petra used as a lesser rock. So, that's not an ironclad argument. I think there's something to it, but it's not ironclad.

53:31

And it is masculine, the Petros, as opposed to Petra, which is feminine, so it does seem to be that Jesus is picking

53:37

Peter as a man, saying, hey, you're the... People say, well, he's using the Aramaic, he's using

53:42

Kepha, which is the Aramaic for Petros. Catholic apologists love to say that, you know, it's the Kepha, it's the

53:48

Kephas, which means rock, which is also used as a larger rock, not just a smaller rock like Petros, like a stone, a pebble, or a smaller rock.

53:57

But regardless, whether Carson or anybody else, all evangelical expositors, whether they be the

54:04

Magisterial Reformers like Calvin, Zwingli, Luther, et cetera, and any contemporary evangelical expositors, we're all unanimously in agreement.

54:17

And again, going back to some of the fall, even Augustine, that this is not, in its essence, giving an infallible office to the

54:26

Bishop of Rome, and B, as you said before, like Carson mentioned, certainly nothing about some type of continuation to some type of inheritance of office where the

54:37

College of Cardinals would get together, burn a piece of paper, if the smoke comes out a certain color, X person gets nominated and chosen to be the next pope.

54:45

This continuation of the apostolic office is just completely absent both of them.

54:51

That's how I actually got the position of host of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. It was a joke,

54:59

Bryce. By the way, if anybody wants to get a hold of an excellent book on this subject, my friend

55:11

William Webster wrote a book, and he does not hold, he does not agree with D .A.

55:20

Carson on this at all. He wrote a book called Peter and the Rock, the

55:26

Matthew 16 Controversy. Excellent book, I think it's about 400 pages, with patristic evidence that the majority, if not all, of the church fathers believed that the confession of Peter about Christ is the rock upon which

55:50

Christ built the church. So if you want that book, just go to christiantruth .com,

55:58

christiantruth .com, and you can look that up. That's Peter and the Rock, the Matthew 16

56:03

Controversy by William Webster. I hope to have him back on the show again sometime in the near future.

56:13

Now, we have to go to a break right now. We have to go to our midway break. This is a longer than normal break, and please be patient with us.

56:21

This is the break that we have to have made longer than the other breaks, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

56:28

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break so that they can air their own public service announcements and commercials in the middle of the show, while we air our own globally heard commercials.

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Here on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, they have to, by FCC regulations, localize this program to Lake City, Florida.

56:47

So please be patient with us as we take this longer break. Use this time wisely by writing down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers.

57:00

And remember, the more you patronize our advertisers, buy their products, use their services, visit their worship services, whatever the case may be that they're advertising, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, and that means the more likely we are going to be remaining on the air, because we depend upon our advertisers' advertising dollars to exist.

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So please write down their information and keep it on hand. Also write down questions for Bruce Bennett on why does it matter if professing

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Christians claim to be under the authority of an infallible vicar of Christ, namely the

57:35

Pope, and send them to chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Don't go away.

57:40

We'll be back after this break with more of Pastor Bruce Bennett and our discussion on the papacy.

57:47

Don't go away. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the

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Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

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I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

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Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

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I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

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Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

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Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

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Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.

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As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday January 16th through Saturday January 18th on a theme that is vitally important to all of us,

01:10:15

Worship Matters. I'll be on the speaking line -up with Eric Thomas, Joel Beeky, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson, Tom Askell, Vody Balcom, and the world -renowned preacher, teacher and author

01:10:26

John MacArthur. A fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher,

01:10:33

Benny Hinn. Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth and is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist in California.

01:10:42

Come join me and Chris Arnzen at G3 2020 January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta by registering at g3conference .com

01:10:50

That's g3conference .com See you there. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

01:11:01

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

01:11:07

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

01:11:13

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the

01:11:19

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

01:11:27

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

01:11:33

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

01:11:39

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently, his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states.

01:11:53

In Illinois, his lawyers had the 4th largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

01:12:04

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call

01:12:10

Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you have Dan Bottafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com that's chrisarnson at gmail dot com

01:12:47

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:12:53

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:13:01

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

01:13:09

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

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Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

01:13:27

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

01:13:40

Their website is cvbbs .com Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

01:13:51

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com

01:13:57

That's cvbbs .com Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:14:06

And you can call cvbbs .com at their toll -free number Monday through Friday between 10 a .m.

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and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time only. And that number is 1 -800 -656 -0231 1 -800 -656 -0231

01:14:28

And they have two excellent offers that they're still giving away for free. The first is

01:14:34

True Love, Understanding the Real Meaning of Christian Love by Dr. James M.

01:14:39

Renahan, President of IRBS Theological Seminary. You will get that for free.

01:14:45

It's a hardcover book published by Evangelical Press. You will get that for free for a purchase of any amount, no matter how inexpensive.

01:14:53

You have to ask for it in the comment section at cvbbs .com That's True Love by Dr.

01:14:59

James M. Renahan. The other book that they're giving away for free is a lot larger.

01:15:05

It's also a hardback by Evangelical Press, but it's a lot larger. It is my favorite of all time biographies.

01:15:12

I don't know if that's grammatically correct. My favorite biography of all times. I guess that's a better way of saying it.

01:15:17

It is A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cohn. I'm glad that my friend,

01:15:25

Pastor Gary George of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts, heard my commercial where I was bragging about, raving about A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cohn by John Thornberry, and he purchased the book and devoured it this weekend and agreed with my assessment of it of it being a remarkable biography, and I think it should be made into a major motion picture, and at least a documentary.

01:15:50

Spencer Cohn was a 19th century particular Baptist pastor in Manhattan. He was a schoolteacher, a lawyer, a stage actor in the 19th century, a war hero in the

01:16:03

War of 1812. He was a pastor in Manhattan facing all kinds of controversies surrounding him, and I strongly urge you to get it.

01:16:12

It's free if you purchase a minimum of $50 or more at cvbbs .com.

01:16:18

What you have to do with that book is you have to enter it into your cart, add $50 worth of merchandise on top of it, then add the coupon code

01:16:28

IRONSHARPENSIREN all one word, all capital letters. The cost of A Pastor in New York by John Thornberry will be subtracted from your total by doing so.

01:16:39

To make your life easier, why don't you just call them after 10 a .m. Eastern Time tomorrow at 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 and verbally tell them that you want either or both

01:16:52

True Love by James Renahan which is yours for free with any purchase or, or should

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I say and or A Pastor in New York The Life and Times of Spencer Cohn which requires a $50 minimum purchase and you just tell them that verbally and make sure that you mention

01:17:09

IRONSHARPENSIREN radio. Before we return to Bruce Bennett, we just have a few upcoming important announcements for events that we hope that you attend.

01:17:20

The first is one we've already been mentioning. It's the debate that Pastor Bruce Bennett will be having on Saturday, September 7th at 6 .30

01:17:28

p .m. at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. Pastor Bruce Bennett is debating

01:17:34

Roman Catholic apologist Matthew Luke Broderick on the theme Is the Office of Pope Biblical?

01:17:40

If you want more details on this conference which is free of charge they are taking a love offering but it's a free event.

01:17:47

Go to wotchurch .com W -O -T which stands for Word of Truth church .com

01:17:53

wotchurch .com or call 631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614

01:18:02

Then, after that coming up in December December 19th and the 20th

01:18:08

That's a Thursday and Friday. I am going to be heading back to my old stomping grounds in New York City to the

01:18:14

Foundations Conference. This is a conference for men and ministry leadership only. The venue only holds less than 200 people so please register as quickly as possible if you intend to attend.

01:18:27

That's Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in the heart of the Christmas season and there's no better place in my opinion to be during the

01:18:34

Christmas season than in New York City. The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson Paul Washer Rev.

01:18:41

Jeff Thomas Rev. Armin Tamasian Richard Caldwell Jr. and Andrew Quigley.

01:18:47

If you would like to register go to thefoundationsconference .com thefoundationsconference .com

01:18:53

Then coming up in January the event that you keep hearing Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio and Phil Johnson and Dr.

01:19:02

James R. White raving about it's the G3 Conference Thursday January 16th through the 18th which is a

01:19:09

Saturday and I'm going to be packing up my bags and heading down south to that event where I'll be once again manning an

01:19:16

Iron Troupe and Zion Radio exhibitors booth at the Georgia International Convention Center that's in College Park, Georgia a suburb of Atlanta, Georgia This January's G3 Conference which by the way stands for Gospel Grace and Glory this year or should

01:19:32

I say this January's theme is Worship Matters and the speakers include

01:19:39

Kosti Hinn who is the nephew of the notorious charlatan and heretic

01:19:46

Benny Hinn Kosti has repented of the word of faith heresies of his youth he is now a

01:19:51

Reformed Baptist pastor and a cessationist and there is an update on James White's ad he is not pastoring in California now he has just been sent by his church to pastor a church in Arizona so that's an update on that information he is a remarkable young man and truly worth your efforts to go hear and see speak at the

01:20:13

G3 Conference Daryl Bernard Harrison who is a new addition to John MacArthur's Grace to You ministry

01:20:19

David Miller a really phenomenal old school preacher and teacher Derek Thomas who is a name very familiar to the vast majority of people in the

01:20:29

Reformed faith the aforementioned Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is on the roster my friend

01:20:36

Dr. Joel Beeke the president of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan once again we have

01:20:43

Stephen J. Lawson and Paul Washer on the lineup at this conference Phil Johnson executive director of John MacArthur's ministry

01:20:50

Grace to You Stephen J. Nichols who is the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded by the late

01:20:56

R .C. Sproul we have Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio Tom Askell the executive director of Founders Ministries the

01:21:05

Calvinistic ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention Vodie Baucom one of the most profound and powerful preachers alive today and as you may have heard

01:21:13

James White say earlier they have now included on the roster Dr. John MacArthur himself and in my opinion even if nobody else was speaking

01:21:22

I would go to the G3 Conference to hear and see him speak I've never been in the same building with Dr.

01:21:28

MacArthur so I'm really looking forward to seeing him and hearing him preach and teach live in person if you want to join me there

01:21:37

January 16th through the 18th in College Park, Georgia at the Georgia International Convention Center go to G3conference .com

01:21:44

G3conference .com I strongly urge you if you have a business or a parachurch ministry to register for an exhibitors booth as well while they still have room and especially with Dr.

01:21:56

MacArthur being added to the lineup I'm sure they're going to run out of room a lot faster than they normally do they normally have over 5 ,000 people at this event

01:22:04

I think that with Dr. MacArthur's being added to the lineup that they're going to have over 6 ,000

01:22:11

I'm just confident in that so if you want to register for either attending and or an exhibitors booth just like I will be manning go to G3conference .com

01:22:21

G3conference .com and last but not least if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear you love hearing the guests and topics that sometimes are rarely or never heard anywhere else then please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:22:36

click support then click to donate now and you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card you can also mail in a check the old fashioned way via snail mail to the address that appears on the screen

01:22:47

I'm urging you to please help us because we have noticed an enormous dip in donations

01:22:53

I don't know if people are sick of me, I don't know what the story is but we did just get rescued by our listeners out of a deep financial hole we were in several weeks ago but since then there's a lot of crickets chirping out there other than a very tiny trickle of donations if you really love the show and you don't want it to disappear, please help us out donate as frequently as you can and as generously as you can at ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:23:22

click support then click to donate now if you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:23:28

and put advertising in the subject line I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as long as you are promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what

01:23:37

I believe you don't have to believe identically with me but you just need to be promoting something compatible with what

01:23:43

I believe and if you are not a member of a bible believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one you're living in rebellion against God please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:23:53

and put something like I need a church or something like that in the subject line because I have helped people all over the world find churches near them where they have either joined or have gone to when they're on vacation or they've recommended to their loved ones,

01:24:08

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the globe so just send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:24:13

and I will try to help you find a biblically faithful church. That's also the email address where you send in a question to Bruce Bennett chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:24:21

chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com and as always give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

01:24:29

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

01:24:37

Pastor Bruce so we understand why we can't have fellowship but spiritual fellowship this does not mean, by the way for people who don't understand what we're talking about when we say fellowship we're not talking about not having

01:24:55

Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox people or even Mormons or Jews or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or Atheists in our homes and enjoying a meal with them and going to a sporting event with them and going camping with them and going to the theater with them and just enjoying wonderful times of company with them we're not talking about that I love people outside of my own

01:25:25

Christian faith and as I said earlier sometimes I enjoy their company more than some people

01:25:31

I know who profess to be Bible -believing Christians but we're talking about spiritual fellowship we're talking about worshipping with them we're talking about praying with them not for them but praying with them we're talking about sharing the ordinances with them that's what we're talking about fellowship and Pastor Bruce we know that it's more obvious why we shouldn't have fellowship with people who have another gospel with us who are worshipping a different God than we worship and I'm not really referring to the

01:26:08

Roman Catholic Church in that area but there are modern ecumenists who have fellowship with all kinds of people even the

01:26:18

Popes of recent history have had worship services with Wiccan priests and all kinds of false believers and pagans even under the standards of the

01:26:29

Council of Trent and the Church of Rome but why though should we not have spiritual fellowship if you are just speaking about solely those that view their

01:26:43

Pope as an infallible vicar of Christ why would that prohibit a Bible -believing

01:26:49

Christian from having fellowship with those people well you participate in the deeds of darkness if you welcome them on the level of a brother or sister in Christ in other words we can't be united the unbeliever and the believer what is fellowship of the people in the light have with those who are in darkness what is fellowship of people who know

01:27:13

Christ have with people who are in a relationship with Bilial as you said the word koinonia which is the word that Greek word is translated to fellowship it means to share in common or have communion and the context in Acts 2 that's referring to would be the breaking of bread which is really the

01:27:32

Lord's Supper the Lord's Supper was an actual meal that took place part of the agape feast that was called the early church during that meal they would actually take pause and they would take bread a leader of one of the elders would take bread and say let's remember the symbol here which represents the body of our

01:27:50

Lord and they would then drink the cup along with it commemorating during that dinner that meal what the

01:27:58

Lord did on the cross as 1 Corinthians 11 would talk about do this remembrance of me going back to the gospels so really on that level is what we're talking about like you said not in the level of welcoming them to your house in the general sense of the word or just say hey let's go down and do an activity together in fact we would be sinning if we never did that if we never had friendships and social interaction with non -Christians we would be in error by doing that in my opinion

01:28:31

I believe precisely precisely so scripture is talking about participating on the level of equating them to a brother or sister especially in regards to like a communion meal some type of affirmation that they're one of us they're not for coffee it doesn't mean

01:28:57

I'm accepting him as a brother in Christ it means that I'm serving him in love a refreshment to get his attention to the gospel but to break bread under the guise or the auspices of us being connected in Christ we're not connected in Christ unless they can affirm

01:29:17

I'm saved by grace alone with the attending testimony of a born again experience and of course

01:29:24

Rome says that they were born again when they were baptized as a baby which is obviously not what

01:29:30

Jesus is talking about in John 3 .3 so again can we relate to them yes can we have fellowship with them in the koinonia sense no let's see here we have

01:29:44

John in Bangor Maine who asks have you heard in recent history after the election of Pope Francis of any considerable number of Catholics who are leaving the

01:30:00

Catholic Church over that very issue of the Church of Rome having its most liberal

01:30:06

Pope in their history have you Bruce I'm not familiar with it

01:30:12

I try to keep my ears to the ground I subscribe to various Christian magazines and I'm not aware of any mass exodus given

01:30:23

Francis' ascendancy from an Archbishop to the

01:30:28

Pope I do think though that there is a slow trickle of people leaving because of the ongoing sexual abuse crisis which

01:30:39

Pope John Paul II completely ignored it it looks like and Francis is trying to damage control

01:30:45

I think that they're actually losing some people on but not enough people to make huge impact on the growth of Protestant churches the most recent statistic

01:30:57

I gleaned from my research with Catholic apologetics was for every two

01:31:05

Catholics every two evangelicals that become Catholic we have eight that come on our side so the tendency is for more to be leaving

01:31:16

Rome and for us to go over to their side which I think you may have to do a show on that Chris because there are all the top

01:31:24

Catholic apologists virtually all of them are ex -evangelicals in fact most of them are evangelical reformed believers interestingly enough so I think we need to have a show on that they're best apologists in my opinion right now in Roman Catholic apologetics a man named

01:31:41

David Anders you can catch his show I've heard him on the radio yeah

01:31:47

EWTN has a show on 2 to 3 o 'clock if you get SiriusXM listen to channel 130 and you can get

01:31:55

David Anders in my opinion he's their best he's better than Matatex and Staples and all the rest of them by a long shot and he's a former he's actually a

01:32:08

Westminster grad as was Jerry Matatex but Jerry Matatex is now a sativacantist who is a very tiny minority within the umbrella of Romanism and he would be considered schismatic if not totally outside of the communion with the

01:32:26

Church of Rome by many many Roman Catholics they don't believe that there's a a current

01:32:34

Pope that is valid now we don't believe that there's ever been a Pope that was valid but he still believes

01:32:42

Jerry in the papacy he just believes that the chair of Peter is vacant which is why they call it sativacantism yeah and one thing that we have to be clear about also is just because a person leaves the

01:32:58

Church of Rome let's say that they leave because they are disgusted by the child molestation sex scandal that has been going on in the

01:33:10

Catholic Church it's actually been going on for centuries in the Catholic Church this is not anything new it's the only thing that's new is that it's been exposed in a broad fashion a wide fashion here in the

01:33:23

United States especially in Ireland and some other places but if a person leaves the

01:33:28

Catholic Church because of that and they join the local Baptist Church the local

01:33:35

Presbyterian Church the local Evangelical Free Church or Independent Bible Church if that person isn't born again they're still just as lost as they were when they were

01:33:46

Roman Catholic just leaving the Catholic Church and becoming Protestant is in and of itself not salvation and it's not the gospel you have to be regenerate and truly embrace the gospel and be transformed by it to be a brother and sister of Christ to those that are true disciples of Christ am

01:34:10

I right there? Yeah absolutely and that speaks even within our own ranks you know people who are raised in an

01:34:18

Evangelical home or church should be under no illusion that God has grandchildren

01:34:23

God only has children so you can't rest on your parents or somebody else's faith or your own repulsion of a false gospel or be in Rome or another church or experience some movement it's ultimately have you been born again of the

01:34:39

Spirit can you point to a time in your past where the Holy Spirit got a hold of you, convicted you of your sin, revealed

01:34:45

Christ to you as Lord and Savior and you personally received Him not as a piece of bread or in a ceremony but received

01:34:54

Him through faith the gift of faith that Christ gives us and allowed or experienced

01:35:00

Him changing you from the inside out where you became a new creation so absolutely that's true We have

01:35:06

CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island New York who says, correct me if I'm wrong but I think your guest in the earlier part of the show said that Pope Francis endorsed homosexuality to my knowledge, even though I disagree with the

01:35:22

Catholic Church and I'm not a Catholic in any stretch of the imagination I don't think that he actually endorsed homosexuality but I do believe he has been soft on it now do you want to respond to what

01:35:36

CJ just said? His initial statement was an endorsement not explicit but implicit by calling it just within the range of normal human behavior

01:35:50

I can't give you the exact quote but I will admit that later on when he was questioned about it from the media and others he did tweak what he said and did come out and say this is not an endorsement necessarily but he believes we should be more gracious to homosexuals and try to meet them where they're at and so on but by not revoking or recanting his initial statement

01:36:18

I think just shows that in fact he is trying to allow at least a more openness to the homosexual lifestyle in the

01:36:30

Catholic Church but since he didn't make an ex -cathedral statement that's true you can't blame it on him trying to change the

01:36:38

Catholic Church's views officially because officially they still see it as a mortal sin so that's true but I'm just saying in terms of his priestly role or his role as the holy father as he would be called his unofficial title the pope is

01:36:55

Latin from papa or father and they would say he's the holy father, the highest of the clergy and he's supposed to be the pastor and he's also saying things that represent a pastor's heart so to some degree at least

01:37:08

I think he did show compromise on that position yeah and tragically there are many professed evangelicals and even professedly reformed

01:37:17

Christians who are becoming soft on that sin typically in evangelical circles and reform circles even those that are soft on the sin would say that to be actively and physically involved in homosexuality is wicked and damnable but where the problem comes in is that there is a growing movement of even evangelicals who say that the proclivity towards that is not innately sinful, they will even say that there are gay

01:37:55

Christians who are celibate chaste who live lives just like every other evangelical and some of them are even pastors but they just refrain from the actual physical activity now in my opinion a person who has a never ending struggle with burning lust for someone of the same gender

01:38:24

I think that they have to seriously question whether they are born again I know that depending upon what circumstances have been involved in a person's life that created this desire in them they may have been molested so many,

01:38:43

I mean most of the time when I ever hear about a homosexual whether they are professedly a Christian or not when they talk about how they became the way that they became usually begins with a family member, a neighbor some man or woman depending upon if it's a male homosexual or a lesbian but somebody had molested them so I mean you can allow perhaps for being more understanding in that area for somebody who has an occasional battle with these desires but somebody just has a never ending desire that way and they actually categorize themselves as gay as if they've waved the white flag and said well

01:39:33

God really isn't going to do anything about this I give up I'm just going to accept the fact that this is the way

01:39:39

I am that's dangerous and it's a lie now

01:39:44

I believe in a controversial thing I believe it is possible since we are born totally depraved that there are people who may be born and I'm saying maybe

01:39:57

I'm not saying this is with certainty but may be born in their sin with a proclivity towards this sin if David came from the womb a liar why can't somebody come from the womb that will eventually turn into a proclivity towards same sex lust

01:40:15

I do not believe it is an organic or biological thing but I'm probably stating something that's a rarely held view but I know that Dr.

01:40:27

James R. White agrees with me in fact he was the first one I ever heard say this that he believes in the possibility because of total depravity of somebody being born with a proclivity towards that as they are as we all are with different kinds of sins but that never justifies the person yielding to the sin and surrendering to it and identifying themselves with that sin do you have anything to say about what

01:40:51

I just said uh not too much just a little bit and that would be you know first of all

01:40:59

Francis has made a lot of contradictory statements on a lot of different issues we shouldn't like pigeon hole on this one issue he's said some various statements on other things everything from climate change to political statements that seem very contradictory so it's par for the course for him

01:41:17

I think he's trying to take the middle road option to it's ultimate logical end when it comes to Rome trying to go not too far to the left not too far to the right in political ideological ways and to try to reach out

01:41:37

I think in one way I think he's sincere in the sense that you know there have been those who have condemned anybody with like you said some type of attraction as if it's the behavior itself there clearly is a difference between same sex attraction and same sex behavior in terms of actually engaging in homosexual acts so I think to some degree at least he was being conciliatory on that and merciful on that but I think at the end of the day he did make other statements that close your scratch your head and you say well where is he really going with this but since nothing was done officially again even

01:42:21

Catholic apologists will remind us that the Popes throughout time have said and done things that do not reflect the

01:42:28

Holy Spirit but my question to them is this it's going to be raised in my debate as well you know they'll for example with the sexual abuse crisis they'll make a point and say well listen

01:42:38

I can point to this Evangelical this Evangelical as falling into some type of sexual sin and whatever and scandal whatever whatever ok granted first of all the percentages are still higher in the

01:42:52

Catholic Church but there's something far far more problematic for the Catholic they're claiming unlike Protestants that their clergy has this sacerdotal anointing that goes all the way up to the

01:43:06

Pope right so when the priest got ordained right they lay face down the bishop you know lays hands on them and imparts this pastoral blessing this apostolic blessing that goes all the way back to the

01:43:19

Pope and they get this supposed anointing of the Holy Spirit to for example confect

01:43:25

Eucharist and to pronounce forgiveness for sins and you know the confessional and these are sacerdotal qualities these are supernatural qualities ex operatio meaning out of their office they're supposed to have this supernatural ability regardless of even if they're right with God so a priest theoretically can be an

01:43:45

Atheist become an Atheist and still confect the Eucharist before the congregation and turn it transubstantiate the body filled with the

01:43:52

Holy Spirit exonerate people of their sins and so on and you scratch your head and you say wait a minute time out time out if the

01:44:00

Holy Spirit has anointed these men to this degree then A. why would you give them license to you know go and do these things in the sense that they can still on one hand confect

01:44:12

Eucharist and forgive sins but on the other hand not hold them morally responsible for their behaviors that are commensurate with the

01:44:21

Holy Spirit's actions in Titus 2 11 it says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness right so in verse 12 in Titus 2 12 it says to actually deny ungodliness and that's what the grace in verse 11 teaches us to do so if they receive this huge amount of grace this amazing amount of grace that gives them this tremendous facetotal qualities then how come we don't see it in their lifestyles and how could you allow them to get away with these things you know where even a product that would be called a corporate you know we never claim that they have this kind of authority this kind of power yet you claiming these guys do but where is the fruit of it so I would ask them that question and raise that as a point of objection you know they have this great power where do you see the fruit we have to go to our final break it's going to be more brief than the last one if you want to join us send us an email immediately to chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors tired of box store

01:45:35

Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island well there's good news

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Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us

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that's nasbible .com As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church

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I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980's is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's

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God in spirit and truth Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

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It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight to me.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 That's 516 -599 -9402

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01:57:19

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, this is the last segment of today's show with Bruce Bennett. And if you have a question, send it in immediately to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

01:57:29

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Pastor Bruce, if you could, summarize what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners today regarding this subject.

01:57:40

Chris, the ultimate authority is God's Word. The Holy Spirit bears witness to the

01:57:45

Word that was written down once more on the 66 books of Scripture. So the

01:57:50

Spirit and Word work in conjunction, and the Spirit would never contradict Himself when

01:57:56

He reveals something to a human heart. But hence, any revelation has to be checked with the

01:58:01

Scriptures. Unfortunately, in the Roman Catholic Church, they have a living apostolic office headed by the

01:58:10

Pope. And this Pope, when he speaks ex cathedra from the chair of Peter on matters of faith and morality, his word is final, it's absolute, and it doesn't matter if it comports to Scripture.

01:58:25

He can say whatever he wants, and ultimately mislead people. So for example, even when

01:58:33

Papal infallibility wasn't officially dogmatized, Pope Innocent III and Gregory IX considered an abortion to take place only when an unborn child was fully formed.

01:58:46

Okay, where Pope Pius IX in 1869 dropped this distinction and now claims that the soul enters the embryo at conception.

01:58:54

It's just one of many contradictions that Popes have made on matters that they spoke authoritatively on.

01:59:03

And not only are the contradictions apparent, but the very essence, nor is the very right of a man, a mere man, a sinful man, to declare anything to be, thus saith the

01:59:16

Lord, if it does not comport with Scripture, is obviously in error.

01:59:21

And we are out of time, brother, and if anybody wants to attend the debate on the theme, is the office of Pope Biblical, between my guest,

01:59:31

Pastor Bruce Bennett, and Roman Catholic apologist Matthew Luke Broderick on Saturday, September 7th, 6 .30

01:59:37

p .m., go to wotchurch .com, wotchurch .com.

01:59:42

Thank you so much, Pastor Bruce, for being our guest again today. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater