Jeff & Sye Arguing with Millennials

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00:00

Hi, I'm Brenna. Hello, Brenna. Hello.

00:06

Okay, there you go. Good. Come on. You guys, come on in. And what's your name again? Daniel. Daniel. Brenna. Yes. This is

00:11

Sai. I'm Jeff. Hi. How you doing? Hi. So if you get a little closer, we're going to go into this mic here.

00:20

So women's rights, we're actually holding a conference next week, and so we wanted to talk to ASU college students.

00:25

Okay. What's that? About that. Okay. So like stand here, right? Like, I'm back here.

00:33

Okay. We'll be famous. Is that better? You want me to stand over there? Yeah. Okay.

00:40

There? Sai is there? Okay, good. Okay, we're good? Yeah. Set. Okay. Daniel, Brenna.

00:45

Okay, so we're holding a conference next week, and we want to talk to ASU students about what you're taught, what you believe about women's rights.

00:53

And so obviously the centerpiece of that big question, big in the last election especially, is women's rights for abortion.

01:02

Okay. So you guys are ASU students walking around? Yeah. What's your perspective? Well, as a woman,

01:11

I definitely believe you should have the right to make choices about your body. Okay. Just 100 % believe in that.

01:17

Okay. I took a women's studies class, too, and there's a lot of, like, talk about what,

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I don't know, like, what is okay to say about a woman and stuff, and I think it's all about context, too, when you're saying certain things to women.

01:34

I believe how someone takes it, like, information into as a woman, but in all honesty,

01:41

I think everyone should deserve equal rights, but... I appreciate that.

01:47

Everyone deserves equal rights? Yeah. 100%. Okay. Daniel, how do you feel about it? About the abortion issue?

01:52

Abortion issue. I would say it's more of, like, a pragmatic deal, you know?

01:59

Like, to outlaw it would cause a lot of people to resort to, like, emerge, like, either having a child that they don't want or can't support or both, and it would also cause people to have, or women in general, you know, to resort to, like, coat hanger type stuff.

02:19

Unethical methods. Yeah. Unsafe. Unsafe methods, right. I think, ultimately, it should be left to her choice, like, completely, but there should be, like, constraints, like, you can't do it after the, in, like, the third trimester, for example.

02:37

Yeah. I definitely believe that. You agree with that? Yeah. So limit on the third trimester. Yeah. Like, no partial birth type deal.

02:43

It's like, if it's viable outside of the womb, it's like, there's no real, like, I don't see it as a good reason to abort, even if it seems like you're just kind of doing it, just do it.

02:53

Okay. Well, let me ask you about that, the third trimester. It happens a lot. People say, you know, women's right to choose, and then we end up getting to the third trimester, people say, yeah, but not there.

03:03

So what do you say to the person that says, isn't it inconsistent to say, not there? What's your argument?

03:08

To say that it should be allowed in the third trimester, but not, it shouldn't be allowed in the third trimester, but it should be allowed early on.

03:16

What would you say? I think because you thought of a, I think you've had that much time to think about it, and you don't, it's an impulse decision if you're making it all of a sudden then, right there.

03:28

When, in the beginning, or? Oh, no, if the, in your third trimester, if you're trying to decide to abort, like, that kind of seems like an impulse decision more than anything else.

03:37

At the end? Yeah. Okay, I'm trying to follow you. So it's an impulse decision at the end, okay.

03:43

And so how do you feel about that? Um, I feel like it's almost malicious at that point, because it can survive, like, if you take it to term.

03:53

At the beginning, it's more like, it's unviable, it's like if you do not want a baby in general, it's like you have two terms to decide that you don't, you don't want to have the kid.

04:02

And it's like, um, I think it goes back more to, like, I don't see it as a person in general, or like, it's obviously human, but I don't see it as human, so it's like more acceptable to me to abort it at that point.

04:18

But if you let it grow to where it can theoretically, or it can in reality, like, live if you take it out either through, like, cesarean section or something, then it just seems like malicious, like, pointless.

04:30

It's like, well, you can, they can live, why would you, like, wait and then terminate?

04:38

Okay, I appreciate that. Um, okay, so it's interesting, as we're hearing students talking about abortion all over campus, we generally hear kind of the same things, and what's interesting, and I'd like to hear what you guys say about this, is that it seems to me that over the last decade especially, people who are part of the abortion industry, people in academia, college students, will typically acknowledge today that what is in the womb from conception is obviously biologically human.

05:07

And you just said that, it's obviously human. Yeah, like, what else would it be? It's human, right? Um, if we went down, dug down, dug deep, we see that's a human being, has its own

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DNA, but what we say is what you just said, um, but I don't, I don't see it as human.

05:20

Like, it's human, but I don't see it as really worthy of protection or anything like that. Um, and so,

05:26

I find that interesting, how do you, how do you deal with that, how do we answer that conflict, that when someone says, say someone that's pro -life says, well, you grant that it's human, but you say that, but I'm not going to give it any protection, until maybe it looks a little more like a human?

05:44

Until it could be physically separated from the mother, and can still live,

05:50

I would say. Okay, how would you feel about that? Yeah, I feel the same way, like, if you can take it out of the mother, and it can thrive, then yeah.

05:58

But if you take it out of the mother, like... And it dies? Yeah. Just by sheer, just by being disconnected from the mother, it is, it dies?

06:07

Like, then it's like, I don't really consider it to be a person in and of itself.

06:13

This gets to a really interesting question, I'd love to see what you guys say about this. So, um, it seems as though, that's very consistent, by the way, in terms of like, what is normally said about this.

06:23

And so, when you take what you just said about, um, the mother's sort of like the life support for the child, right?

06:30

Basically. Um, and you say, well, if it's dependent upon the mother for life support, then we ought to be able to kill it.

06:36

Right, because it's the mother's choice to either give it life support or not give it life support. Yeah, so that's consistent across the board, that's what everyone says.

06:44

What do you say in that point, the standard is, it's a human being, but if it's dependent upon someone or something else, we ought to be able to kill it.

06:52

So, let's say if a human being gets into a car accident and it's dependent upon life support, or if a person gets a brain tumor or something and they're dependent upon life support, are we able to just kill them at will because they're dependent upon something or somebody else?

07:07

Well, don't we do the power of attorney at that time, usually? Or someone who's in charge decides whether to pull the plug or not.

07:15

True, true. But I guess in terms of the standard, if there's a human being that's dependent upon somebody or something else, the standard ought to be we can kill them.

07:25

Well, it depends because I would say it depends on whether that person has lived long enough.

07:35

I guess whether they initially became viable to begin with.

07:40

Because that would, let's see, if you take a child out of the womb at the third trimester so it's viable, but you've removed it, but then it still needs life support to live, obviously, to get to full term, then you would keep it on life support, you wouldn't just leave it there.

08:00

It's kind of like... Why? It needs to be alive first in order to even qualify.

08:06

If it's never alive to begin with... So, like, breathe? That's a question I would ask. Scientifically, biologically, at conception it's alive.

08:19

At conception there's life, DNA, it's biologically distinct. Christians would say it's the image of God, it's life from conception, but what we're saying is when it gets out of the womb and we have to give it life support, say for example it's out of the womb now, but it still needs some help along the way.

08:37

Right. It needs some help along the way, we attach it to some life support, it was on the life support of the mother, now it's on this artificial life support over here.

08:45

What would happen to somebody if they walked into that room and began to hack it into pieces?

08:51

What should happen to them? That would be murder. Why? Because at that point, if you were...

09:03

Light bulb. Light bulb. Light bulb. This is good. We're obviously

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Christians and we're asking these questions because we think it would be good to start having these dialogues together. Start saying, what do we really believe?

09:15

Why do we believe this is okay in our culture? Because a long time ago it wasn't the norm.

09:21

Roe v. Wade changed a lot of things. And what's interesting to me, and you guys are college students, so you guys are committed to your own intellect and growing as people, and I respect that.

09:30

But what's interesting is that in 1973 when Roe v. Wade happened, the

09:36

Supreme Court said what's in the room is potential human life. Now at the time, Christians at the time would have said, no, no, it's image of God.

09:44

It's worthy of value and dignity and love. But the Supreme Court said, no, it's potential human life.

09:49

But now you guys know. Do you do biology classes and stuff, like science? Is that anywhere you're going?

09:55

No. I'm in psychology. Psychology, okay. So I know that if we went into one of these classrooms here that we're talking about biology, there's no question, no dispute, because of what we know about DNA and human genome, all those things, that at the moment of conception it has all the biological components of a human being.

10:12

Right. And if you let it carry on, then it would grow. Because it's not a cat, it's a human.

10:19

So what's interesting is that when Roe v. Wade happened, there was potential human life, but we know that that was a false premise.

10:26

It was human life at conception. And as we move along the lines, you said something that was precious to me. I think it's amazing.

10:32

You said, I believe that all humans deserve equal rights. I fundamentally agree.

10:37

All humans deserve equal rights. But if we press that and we think about it together as a community, and we say, we're all going to bite down on that and accept it.

10:46

All humans deserve equal rights. That would mean that we'd have to give that human being in the womb equal rights.

10:53

And you said something I think was even more powerful. You said women. All women deserve to be protected.

10:58

But there's also 500 ,000 women in the womb every year. I also believe though that if we did ban abortion, that there needs to be better alternatives for women to basically promote adoption.

11:14

Because there are so many problems with the foster care system. No, 100 % agree. I think that's why a lot of abortion happens.

11:23

Because parents fear that if they don't want to have the kids, well, where's it going to go that it's going to thrive technically?

11:29

You're going to send it to a foster home and it's not going to thrive. Yeah, it's a mess. So let me tell you something that I've heard.

11:35

And then tell me how you'd respond to it. So we've actually, we love, we try to love and care for a lot of women that are considering abortion.

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We've seen over 70 babies saved. Hundreds across the country.

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And one of the things we always offer women is we say to them when they're considering abortion or going in to have one, we say, we'll adopt your baby.

11:57

We'll pay for everything. We'll pay for the medical. You will literally pay nothing. We'll take care of it.

12:03

I'd like to hear what you say to this. They say to us when we tell them we'll adopt your baby, as they're walking into the abortion clinic, they'll say,

12:09

I can never get my baby up for adoption. And then they walk inside and they go through with the abortion.

12:16

They grow that attachment right away. Yeah. It's a natural attachment.

12:22

Isn't it amazing? It's like a weird conflict. Like it's, I can never get my baby up for adoption, but then they go in and they actually kill it.

12:28

It's because there's a face to it. If there's no face, then they can't get rid of it. So what, do you want to?

12:34

No, I was just wondering, you did say something earlier. You said that women have a right to what happens to their body.

12:40

Yeah. Who gives them that right? Well, technically the government gives them that right.

12:45

So if the government were to change and say women no longer have a right to their bodies, and we're going to actually legislate rape because it happens in the back alley.

12:54

And it's kind of messy when it happens in the back alley. I mean, there's garbage and stuff like that. So we're going to legislate rape. We're going to take away the rights from women.

12:59

And I know I use extreme examples, and I apologize for that. But we're going to have a rape center. And because women no longer have the rights, we're going to say they don't have the rights.

13:07

And if we outlaw rape, you know how rapes have happened in the past. I mean, people rape there, you know, they do it.

13:14

Here we're going to legislate it. You know, we might even, instead of, you know, people being raped with a knife and with a gun, we're going to actually, you know, give people drugs here so they can knock the woman out, you know, and make it safer and make it cleaner.

13:24

You would see how that would be a problem. It'd be like an endorsement of rape. It is an endorsement.

13:30

So you had said earlier that if we outlaw abortion, then it can go back to the back alleys.

13:37

Yeah. So the question is not really, you know, what will happen if it's outlawed. The question is where do we get our rights and who says whether it's right or wrong to kill a baby.

13:47

Now, as Christians, we'll say that humans have a right by God, given to us by God.

13:53

And therefore, you know, I think that if you were to believe that stance, that we're given a

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God -given right for life, then you would actually join us in our view that killing the baby at any point would be wrong.

14:05

So the issue is not really what we think about abortion. You know, when I see people who are pro -abortion, I do not think that they're wicked people.

14:13

I think that they have deceived themselves into giving the child a different classification because of their worldview.

14:21

Because, you know, one thing I say too is except for the grace of God, I'm arguing just like people who try to make exceptions for killing a baby.

14:28

But as Christians, we say, no, God has given us rights. And we hope and we pray that people who are for abortion, not that they become against abortion, is that God saves them.

14:38

That God saves them so that not only do they recognize the right of the baby and the life of the baby, but their own. Because for somebody to take a stance and to say, well, that baby or that child does not deserve the right to live, that reflects on their rights for their own body.

14:53

Because if it can happen to a baby, it can happen to you too. If it's the government that gives rights, they could change that tomorrow.

14:58

If you think about this for a second, in terms of how we should be thinking through the issue, like together, because we're all in this together.

15:05

We're living in the same community. It's all happening in centers around us. So there was a time not long ago where people used to look at a class of people.

15:14

This wasn't long at all. People are still alive from this. They used to say, I know it looks like a person.

15:19

It's not a person. It's a Jew. And they said, we can kill him because it's not a person.

15:25

It's a Jew. So a government decided this is a class of human beings that doesn't deserve our love or protection.

15:31

And so they were seen as animals and waste. And they were destroyed.

15:38

And we would say the same thing is happening today is that we all recognize that's a human being from conception.

15:44

We grant it. But they're being killed. 3 ,000 a day are dying in our nation a day. That's a 9 -11 every single day.

15:51

But what we tend to do in our culture is we tend to look at it and say, yeah, but it's not worthy of protection or my love or value.

15:58

And what I admire about what you said to begin with was your obvious commitment to human beings, equal rights, women's rights.

16:08

But I think that if we thought through those things more consistently, we would look at that, what's in the womb, and we'd say, that's a woman deserves my protection.

16:18

She's a little woman that deserves my protection. She's a human that deserves my protection and my love. And I think we would join together in saying there are better ways to address the problem

16:28

Oh yeah, I definitely think there are better ways. But where we are now, and I think where our society is and how basically just putting a baby and putting up for adoption or putting an orphan or a foster, it's just not,

16:43

I think the mother, it's just not a safe place for her to think the baby's going.

16:49

I think that's, and then also the problem with the separation from the baby after you have it.

16:56

I mean, obviously there are a lot of problems after an abortion. You have definitely a lot of mental problems.

17:02

And I wouldn't say, I personally would not choose abortion as your priority or something you just do automatically.

17:09

Your go -to. Yeah, like your go -to, basically. I think it should be used in the most extreme cases.

17:16

Can I ask you to think about something? You don't have to respond, but just think about something for a moment.

17:23

If we, because I hear that a lot, and if we set that as a standard, we say life's going to be hard, it's going to be emotionally difficult or financially difficult for a mother.

17:32

I hear that a lot, and that impresses me because I'm actually a pastor, and I care for people all the time and take care of their needs, and I see hurting people every single day.

17:40

Today I have to go to the hospital to take care of them. So I feel the weight of that emotional appeal. I do,

17:46

I very seriously do. But think about this for a second. If we say the standard is, if it's financially difficult or emotionally difficult to have a child, then we can kill them.

17:59

What does that say to most every family in America that might be having financial difficulties or emotional difficulties in raising children?

18:08

Children are hard. They're actually really hard. And if we set that as a standard, we would say, well, we can kill all children.

18:13

And what I'm hearing from a lot of young adults in my generation is a lot of girls don't want to have kids.

18:19

Right. Yeah. Right. It's a very popular idea now. Sure it is, yeah.

18:25

I have four kids. And when I drive places, especially in Arizona, when I drive places to get out, people look at me like I'm Mormon or something.

18:31

They're like, obviously Mormon. Because, yeah, having more than even one kid today, two kids is like, wow, you have a huge family.

18:38

But, yeah, we just want you to consider that and think through that with us as a community. Those arguments, do they really work?