March 12, 2025 Show with Samuel Farag on “One Man’s Journey out of Coptic Orthodoxy into the Reformed Faith”

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from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 12th day of March, 2025.

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Excuse me for the frog in my throat that came out of nowhere. Today we have a first -time guest that I'm excited to interview, and we're going to be addressing a subject that we have not delved into for a full two hours, and I have done interviews on Eastern Orthodoxy, but as we will discover from my guest,

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Samuel Farag, that they are not identical. Samuel Farag is a

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Reformed Christian apologist. He is founder of ExpositingTheWord .org

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and pastor of Beth El Baptist Church of Gorham, New York, and we're going to be addressing from Egypt to Geneva, one man's journey out of Coptic Oriental Orthodoxy into the

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Reformed faith. That's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Samuel Farag.

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Oh, thank you so much for having me, Chris. I really appreciate it. Well, first of all, tell our listeners something about Beth El Baptist Church of Gorham, New York.

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So we're part of Village Missions. So I'm a missionary of Village Missions, where the heart of Village Missions is to send pastors to be full -time at rural churches, where if that church closes down, there is no gospel witness in the area.

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So I'm serving out in Gorham, New York. It's a largely

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Mennonite community there, and we're bringing the Word of God there, sharing with them deep biblical truth in Western New York.

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Praise God. And what kind of Mennonites would be dominating that area? Would they be the more liberal

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Mennonites or the more old -school Mennonites? We have a mix of both, but, you know, you'll have a lot of the old -school ones.

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So, for example, you'll have a lot of horse and buggies going off throughout town, but you also have some of the more liberal kind or the ones with different types of rules that they have.

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Okay. Well, I am looking forward to this conversation, because, as I said, even though I've done programs on Eastern Orthodoxy, I have never delved into the

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Oriental Orthodox Church, or otherwise known as the Coptic Church. Perhaps before we even go into your specific testimony, which will take up the dominant part of this discussion today, perhaps you can tell us about the main tenets of Oriental Orthodoxy and compare and contrast

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Oriental Orthodoxy—or, as I said, the Coptic Church—with Eastern Orthodoxy and even

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Roman Catholicism. Yeah, that's a great question, because a lot of people don't know the difference between the two.

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So, yeah, being born and raised in the Coptic Orthodox Church—I was in it for 32 years—they are part of the

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Oriental Orthodox Church. So the Coptic Church is part of the Oriental Orthodox Church. Other churches that are also within the

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Oriental Orthodox Church include the Syriac Church, the Syriac Malachara Church, the

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Armenian Church, Ethiopian Church, and the Eritrean Churches. The Oriental Orthodox Church is not in communion with the

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Eastern Orthodox Church, yet some of the churches do have these types of agreements within each other.

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So, for example, the Greek Orthodox Church, which is an Eastern Orthodox Church, does have some agreements with the

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Coptic Orthodox Church, I believe related to marriage, potentially with communion, too. So there may be some agreements, but both churches see each other as outside and separate.

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So each church believes that they are the ark of salvation, that you only can get salvation through them.

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Do they accept your baptism as a Coptic? So I'll give an example, because I know some people who have left the

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Coptic Orthodox Church and joined the Eastern Orthodox Church. For example, that's my brother. He's actually left the

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Coptic Orthodox Church to join the Eastern Orthodox Church, and he didn't have to have another baptism, but he didn't have to be chrismated again.

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So in chrismation, that's when they put the oil on you. And actually, within the Orthodox Churches, both the

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Eastern and the Oriental, they believe you receive the Holy Spirit at the point of the chrismation.

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That's where they actually believe you receive the Holy Spirit. Which is not even anywhere remotely in the Bible at all.

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Not at all. And that's what you'll see as the major theme within the Oriental and the Eastern Orthodox Church, and of course, the

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Catholic Church, like we know, a lot of beliefs that have no basis in Scripture whatsoever, but they will make little appeals to oral tradition, and they will state that this is the way that the apostles practiced, even though we have no written record or command from the

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Savior or any of the apostles or any writings in Scripture at all. Well, what would be some of the other major tenets of the

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Coptic Church that would differ from Eastern Orthodoxy? So the biggest and main difference is that the

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Oriental Orthodox Church actually split from the rest of Christendom in 451

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A .D. due to the Council of Chalcedon. That's because they did not accept it. So that was the fourth ecumenical council.

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So in the Coptic Church and for the rest of the Oriental Orthodox Church, they only believe in the three ecumenical councils, whereas Eastern Orthodoxy believe in seven ecumenical councils.

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The reason that this is such a big deal is that for both churches, an ecumenical council is considered infallible.

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It is held to the same level for them as Scripture. They believe it's inspired by Scripture. So when they base their teachings, they're not just teaching through Scripture, they're looking at these councils as completely authoritative and infallible.

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So that is probably one of the most significant differences between the churches and for a lot of people, because if you actually look at their actual theology and practice, it's almost identical.

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I used to, growing up, go to Eastern Orthodox churches because we had a family friend who was

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Eastern Orthodox. Their family and our family are close friends. So we would attend with them church. And it looked almost identical, except for the fact that if you get into the technical, that if you actually ask a lot of churchgoers, they sometimes don't even know what the differences are.

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But the councils is a big difference. And within that difference, the Oriental Orthodox believe that the way that they would say that Jesus is of two natures, and what that is called is

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Maya theatrism. And not to be confused with monotheatrism, which is sometimes what they're accused of believing, which is heretical, but Maya theatrism, which is they believe that Jesus' nature, his human nature and his divine nature, are one nature.

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And the way they'll say it is without mingling, without confusion, without alteration. This also leads them to the belief that Jesus has just one will.

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Or as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the way that they would say is that Jesus is in two natures, diotheatism.

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So Jesus has two natures, one divine and one human. So they also believe that Jesus has a divine will and a human will.

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And that's where wherein lies the big difference. So the amount of councils that are accepted and this differences of belief and how exactly the natures of Christ are viewed, those would be the biggest differences.

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Although based on who you speak with, if you look at what a lot of Orthodox theologians have seen, a lot of it seems like it was they're both trying to say the same thing in different ways and they're both trying to avoid heretical things, where a lot of people think that if it was just maybe a better understanding that there wouldn't have been that division back then.

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And others are like, no, absolutely not. Whatever the other side believes is completely heretical. So some see it as a significant difference.

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Others see it as a minor difference. And what would be any difference that the

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Coptics may have in regard to—well, let me just start with them one at a time, some of the other things—veneration of Mary and the saints.

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Is there any difference in the way and the manner and what is intended by this?

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And perhaps you could even throw in the differences that they would have with Rome, if any, on these issues.

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Yeah, so when it comes to the differences with Mary and the saints, it is virtually identical in the way that they view

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Mary. They view Mary in a place where they give her a lot of titles that would only belong to Christ.

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I would say the difference being in Eastern Orthodoxy, it's way more explicit. So even though I grew up Oriental Orthodox, the majority of my study actually lies in Eastern Orthodoxy.

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One of the reasons being is that they have a lot more written down that is considered infallible church teachings that the church has.

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So in the Oriental and Orthodox Church, anytime a hymn is said in church, that hymn is considered infallible.

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So if it's a hymn that's used by the church, they can only use hymns that they consider as infallible.

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Again, another source that they claim has the same authority of Scripture. And the Eastern Orthodox are especially big on the hymns that they have for Mary.

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And the things that they say about Mary in the Eastern Orthodox Church, it's shocking.

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So an example of some of them is that they call Mary the propitiation for the whole world, that she is the restoration of men, that she is the forgiveness for many who have stumbled, that she is the gate of salvation, the provider of God's mercy.

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And it goes on and on. We can read a whole list of how they describe Mary. The Orientals, in similar fashion, call

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Mary Savior. And the way that, especially how they treat her, they will make the distinction between veneration and worship, both

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Orthodox churches. However, if you actually interact with the people, it does appear their actions as idolatry.

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They have Mary all over their homes, pictures of Mary.

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They intercede to Mary before going to Christ and sometimes instead of, because of how much they value

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Mary. In fact, a common thing that they'll say is, oh, well, go to Mary because Mary is compassionate.

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And whatever you tell to Mary, Jesus will listen to. So you'll actually find certain people only really praying to Mary, only seeking her because they see that she has this ability to intercede for them in a way that they couldn't if they just prayed to God directly.

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Yeah, the Roman Catholic Church has this same mindset where Mary, I mean, you can't say that every

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Catholic obviously is identical in the way that they approach these things, but they have a long -held tradition of believing that it is safer to go to Christ through Mary as if we need

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Mary as a mediator between men and Christ. And I'm sure you have likely read or heard read some of the absolutely blasphemous and heretical prayers by Alphonse Liguori, where—go ahead.

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No, no, no, continue, sorry. And but anyway, it's a similar situation, you know, that Jesus is not going to turn away his mother if you go to her as a mediator.

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Yeah, that's exactly what they're trying to say is that, yes, if you go yourself, like in the

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Eastern Orthodox Church, they have this kind of like this prayer that is showing this dialogue between Jesus, Mary, and a person who's asking for forgiveness of sins.

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And he keeps appealing to Mary because he's afraid to go directly to Christ. And Christ keeps rejecting.

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He keeps saying, no, he's the worst of sinners. No, he doesn't deserve it. And Mary is pleading, for my sake, do it.

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At the very end, Jesus says, fine, for your sake, I'll forgive his sins even though he doesn't need it. So when you have this as part of what you believe, you're going to find many people gravitating towards Mary.

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And you're right, it's not everybody. There are certain people who are within the church who don't lean on Mary so much.

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But it is a majority of people because of the practices that they have. Do they believe that she was immaculately conceived?

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No, not immaculately conceived, but they will say that she was sinless, that she would still be, you know, as a human, because she was born, she would still have sin.

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But she herself didn't sin. It was only the sin of Adam that she had.

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Is that what you mean? Correct. Yep, yep. They have a different way of explaining it than, say, how

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Catholics or Protestants would explain it. But their main thing is that she herself, by her own will, never sinned.

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And then this is where Eastern Orthodoxy takes it to an even greater degree. And I believe the

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Coptic Church also believes this part, too, is that they believe that Mary was actually raised in the

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Holy of Holies, which theologically there's massive, massive problems with that to the point where Eastern Orthodoxy actually has feasts and holidays celebrating this.

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And if you read some of the writings of some of these early church fathers that they look up to,

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I believe Gregory Palamos, he actually says that the idea of salvation, itself,

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Mary offered it up to God in a sense. So it is quite problematic, and some have taken it to even more extremes.

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But, yeah, it's quite problematic. Yeah, I learned about that false tradition,

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I might add, of Mary being raised in the Holy of Holies from Jason Wallace's videos on Eastern Orthodoxy.

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Are you familiar with Jason? Yes, he has some great documentaries that he's released.

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And yes, his video is very good. Yeah. And the

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Eucharist, the Mass, do they believe in transubstantiation like Rome?

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Do they have a unique, different view? And is it a perpetuatory sacrifice?

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Tell us about this. Yeah, so if you look at what their actual beliefs—and they're not going to like me when

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I say this, but it is the same thing that they believe, but they do have different ways of slightly explaining the nuances of it.

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But they ultimately believe in true presence, and they do believe in what they call a bloodless sacrifice that they're doing every time that they're having the

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Eucharist. And in the Coptic Church, for example, because the priest handles the communion elements, when we approach a priest as congregants, we're supposed to kiss the priest's hand.

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And I recently spoke to somebody when they went and they visited. So in the Coptic Church, they have a pope, although he is not in any way like the

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Catholic pope. It's just a title in the Coptic Church. He's basically the patriarch, which would be the head bishop.

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So they only look at bishops and the pope as the same position, but they give him the title pope just to say that he's the first among equals.

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Anyways, this person was explaining to me a story that he was a Protestant himself, but he came from a

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Middle Eastern background, an Egyptian background. And he was going with this other group of Coptic people to visit

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Egypt, and they want to go visit the pope. So he said, it's fine for him. He's just going to go visit him. He didn't realize that when people approached him, they were actually bowing down, crawling and kissing his hand.

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And when he saw that, he immediately got out of line. But those are the types of practices. When a bishop comes, you're supposed to what they call make a matanya to him, bow down towards them.

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And you're supposed to kiss their hands because they're handling the elements, which they believe is true presence, which is truly Christ.

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In fact, in a communion service, if bread or wine spills on something, you pick up the crumbs.

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But if it's wine, they'll actually put water to kind of soak out the wine out of it and later on take that material and burn it.

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That's the way that they view the Eucharist. They'll go to extreme lengths because they believe it's a true presence of Christ.

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And there's an actual blessing from consuming it and even touching it and everything.

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Now, if you were still in the Coptic Church, that is, would you be welcome to the communion service of either

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Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic churches? And vice versa, would they be welcome in a

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Coptic church for a communion service? Typically, they wouldn't.

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But like I was talking about before about the Greek and the Coptics have some agreements, I believe it's related to like if you're married to somebody, like sometimes they'll have a

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Greek and a Coptic person married, they'll allow each other to take communion in the other person's church.

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And then they'll have just small different agreements. There's one area where there's the Orientals and the

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Easterns in the same area and they'll allow them to take communion together. So there's small different agreements.

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But if you look at the actual churches themselves, typically you don't take communion at any other church because, again, they're viewing themselves as the ark of salvation.

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So the way both churches explain it, that there is salvation in them only. So it's like you're in the ark and anyone else that would include not just a different Orthodox church, but Catholics, Protestants and unbelievers.

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You're in the floodwaters. Now, historically, that was very clear that anyone in the floodwaters was under God's wrath and there is no way that they could be saved unless you were in the church.

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In the modern times, they've kind of changed the meaning and they'll say this phrase of, well, we know where the church is, but we don't know where the church isn't.

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That is not historically what the Orthodox churches have ever said. They were pretty firm and pretty clear with what they were stating.

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You had to be in the Orthodox church if you were going to be saved. Now, is a

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Coptic worship service typically conducted in an Arabic language or would it be any part of it in English?

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How is that going? Yeah, so in the Coptic church, usually you'll have portions in Arabic, portions in Coptic and portions in English.

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And based on the population and different area, they'll be heavy in certain areas or sometimes, especially if they have a lot of people who speak

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English there, they'll even have a certain service that will be all English or something. So it's typically a mix, but based on the areas, they can change that.

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But they don't have any, for example, any formal rules about it. Now, Coptic is an

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Egyptian dialect? Yeah, it is Coptic. So you'll find Coptic as some of the early manuscripts that were found.

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And it's a combination of Greek with ancient Egyptian. So it's considered a dead language.

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So when people understand Coptic, it is a dead language. So it's not used now, except for, you know, in services and stuff.

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And the veneration of images, I know that in Eastern Orthodoxy, they forbid three -dimensional images as Rome uses, full -blown three -dimensional statues and so on, and only use icons, which are images that are somewhat raised from the surface, but not quite a three -dimensional object.

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Now, is Coptic worship the same as the Eastern Orthodox, or do they allow three -dimensional objects?

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No, they are the same, although, I mean, I have seen personal people sometimes have statues, but typically it's just an icon, or like you mentioned, where it's an image that is slightly 3D, but not fully 3D.

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So that's typically how it is. Their beliefs on icons in general are very similar to the

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Eastern Orthodox. The difference is this, the Eastern Orthodox believes in the Seventh Ecumenical Council, so they have it officially laid out.

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The Oriental Orthodox believes in the theology of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, but they can't accept the council, not because they disagree theologically, but because in order to accept it, you would then accept the fourth council that they have a problem with.

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But theologically, they agree. And it's interesting because if you actually look at what they do for icons, it's really problematic.

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So there's a popular YouTube channel, a Coptic Orthodox channel called

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Coptic Orthodox Answers. And there, a priest named Anthony Mourad explains his justification on what the church believes about icons.

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The title of the video is, What Does the Church Believe About Icons and Their Use? And he actually shares the prayer of consecration of icons.

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This is a Coptic Orthodox story. So this is said every time that they're putting up an icon. This is what it says. We ask and entreat you, a lover of mankind, to send your

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Holy Spirit on this icon. That it may become an anchored harbor of salvation and steadfastness for all who approach it faithfully to receive through it grace and forgiveness of their sins from God.

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So they're talking about the Holy Spirit coming on the icon. They're talking about people approaching the icon to receive salvation and forgiveness of sins.

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And this is an official Coptic prayer that is prayed when the icon is installed within the church.

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And again, this is offered up as evidence that they are explaining of what they believe that the

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Coptic Orthodox Church believes about icons. So it really gets into very similar beliefs of what pagans believed when they believed in idols.

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And is there agreement with the East in opposition to Rome in regard to the filioque clause in the

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Apostles' Creed? Yes, correct. They would share in that, too, where they would be against the filioque, yeah.

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Which is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Correct, yeah.

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And one of the major issues, obviously, that we want to discuss today that will come about in your testimony is the gospel itself, its salvation.

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I have friends and acquaintances who are convinced that the

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Coptic Orthodox Church is teaching a salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone.

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I am assuming they must be deceived if there is so much similarity with the Eastern Orthodoxy.

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So tell us about that. What is their gospel? Is it just like Rome's, that in Rome you have not only the individual's works being necessary to merit grace, but you also have the treasury of merit, the works of Mary and the saints that are all added to your own works, to, obviously, the benefits of Christ in order to receive salvation.

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So what is the story with the Coptics? So the

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Coptics, and I would say that it would be identical to what the Eastern Orthodox believe, too, which is sola ecclesia, that one has to be in the

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Orthodox Church, that in the Orthodox Church one is saved by the Church alone, through the

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Church alone, in the Church alone, according to the Church alone, all for the glory of the Church alone. Truly, what they believe is that in order for you to receive salvation, you have to be a part of their

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Church. If you are baptized, it has to be by one of their priests or bishops.

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So everything is about being part of the Church. And yeah, you're never just saved by faith alone.

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You have to do these works, as described oftentimes, like the ladder of the finest scent, that as you do these works, you're climbing up that ladder, you're climbing up that ladder, and hopefully you've climbed up enough.

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But if you go to any Coptic Orthodox person and say to them, are you saved? They would think that that's arrogant of us to assume that we could be saved because for them it has to be about what they would call a cooperation with God, that God does

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His part and He makes it available, but you have to kind of work with Him and you have to continue working with Him, and that is the reason why you have to keep going to the saints, because the saints have reached this higher level.

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Just like the Eastern Orthodox have the belief in theosis within the Oriental Orthodox Church, you could say it's a 50 -50.

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Some people do believe in theosis, some people don't. Whereas in Eastern Orthodoxy, it's very clear that they do. It's a part of their bedrock.

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But they believe that the more you do these actions, you know, the type of prayers you make, being faithful by attending church, by taking the

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Eucharist every week, by going to the priest for confession, those things help your status so at the end that you'll be judged that you've done enough good things to get into heaven.

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So it is very much merit -based. And by the way,

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I wanted to make it clear to our listeners that Reformed Christians, or at least most of us, believe that works are a necessary evidence for someone who is truly regenerate and justified, not that they in any way cooperate with the finished work of Christ on the cross.

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They are just merely fruits, but they are necessary. We do not believe that people who live habitually unrepented lives should have any hope of salvation.

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Correct. And you see, the Eastern Orthodox are good in the sense that they make it explicitly clear what they believe.

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One of the documents in the Eastern Orthodox Confessions to look at is the 1672

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Confession of Diocese, and there they make it very clear that they don't believe in faith alone.

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What it says there in that decree, Decree 13, we believe in man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love.

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That is to say, through faith and works. But the idea that faith can fulfill the function of a hand and lay hold on the righteousness which is in Christ and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all orthodoxy.

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For faith so understood would be possible in all and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false.

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But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but that faith which is in us justifies through works with Christ.

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But we regard works not as a witness certifying our calling. So that line right there is what we believe, that Scripture shows that good works shows that work as evidence, as a byproduct of saving faith.

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Well, they don't believe that, but they say, but as being fruits in themselves through which faith becomes effectaceous and as in themselves meriting through the divine promises that each of the faithful may receive that is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad.

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However, we know what Scripture says in Ephesians 2, 8 through 9, for by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not your own doing.

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It is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast. But yes, good works are important as a byproduct.

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It shows evidence of our salvation, but it is not meriting our salvation. Now, one more question before we go to our commercial break.

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What about the canon of Scripture? Do they agree with Rome's canon that includes the

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Deutero -canonical books, which we call the Apocrypha, or does it exclude those books?

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So they actually do have many books that the Catholic Church also believe in. But the interesting part, so in the

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Eastern Orthodox Church, they have a set amount of books. If you get, there's something called the Eastern Orthodox Study Bible that really lays out how many additional books that they believe in.

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But in Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm sorry, in the Oriental Orthodox, the different churches within the

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Orthodox Church have a different canon. So, for example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and their

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Eritrean Orthodox Church, they have an 81 -book canon for their Bible. So they actually have it larger.

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So even within the Oriental Orthodox Church, the different churches have a different amount of books that they actually believe is canon.

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Now, how seriously do they take those differences? Do they not have fellowship with each other over those issues or no?

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No, in the Oriental Orthodox Church, it doesn't faze them at all. They still see them as within the church, even though they have a different amount of books as canon.

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Well, we are going to our first commercial break. If you have a question on the

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Oriental Orthodox Church, specifically the Coptic Church, or Eastern Orthodoxy in general, my email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and that would especially go to anybody who is perhaps still in the

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Coptic Church. You're having questions about it and you don't want to publicly identify yourself, we could totally understand why you would remain anonymous.

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But if it's a general question, please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

34:13

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

34:28

God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

34:37

In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at TRBCCarlisle .org.

34:50

That's TRBCCarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

34:59

This program is sponsored by Hope TR Ministry. Hope TR Ministry is a podcast produced by Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Walker, Michigan.

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We are dedicated to sharing reformed biblical content every Wednesday and Friday. Tune in for sermons, lectures, and interviews exploring distinctive reformed doctrines.

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If you are looking for Christ -centered content, simply search Hope TR Ministry on your favorite podcast platform to begin listening today.

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Hope TR Ministry also offers Morning Meditations, a daily podcast featuring reformed devotionals designed to nourish your soul.

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Start your day with these spiritually enriching messages by tuning into Morning Meditations wherever you get your podcasts.

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Greetings. This is

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Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Shopping Zion radio program.

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But today I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

36:50

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

36:57

In the film, Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

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I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

37:29

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

37:36

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

37:45

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

37:55

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church.

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A congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

38:23

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

38:29

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother,

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Chris Arnzen, in the highest esteem. And I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for reformed

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Well, welcome back. We have as our guest today, if you're just tuning us in for the very first time,

40:13

Pastor Samuel Farag of Bethel Baptist Church in Gorham, New York, and we are discussing his testimony of leaving the

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Oriental Orthodox Church, specifically the Coptic Church, and he had become a born -again believer in Christ Jesus, saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, and is a member of the

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Reformed faith, and he is specifically a confessional Reformed Baptist.

40:54

And if you have any questions about this, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

41:02

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Well, Samuel, tell us now about your own upbringing in the

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Coptic Church and the events that arose in your life that eventually led you to begin to question some of the key teachings of the

41:23

Coptic Church. Yeah, so I grew up in the

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Coptic Orthodox Church, spent the first 32 years of my life in it, and let's start actually a little bit before I was even born.

41:37

So my parents were not even the ones who named me. They were having trouble having children, so they were sending out to different people to pray on that manor, one of which being a monastery.

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So it actually was a letter that came back from a monk, which is how we got our name. So my brother and I were actually named because of a monk.

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So as I grew up, multiple Coptic Orthodox priests believed that I was supposed to be a priest.

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The priest who baptized me actually one time called my mom and said to her, go and kiss his hand.

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And I was an infant at the time, so she was confused about it. They said, just go do it. And then she kind of put it together.

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As we were talking about before, the priests, we often kiss their hands. So she took that as a sign that I was supposed to be a priest one day.

42:30

So kind of growing up with a little bit of that expectation. But for me myself, I did not want anything to do with that.

42:38

But I did have what some people will call the Orthodox pheronima, which is an

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Orthodox worldview. So I viewed things in the Orthodox light. I saw things through an

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Orthodox lens because my whole entire life was incorporated within the Coptic Orthodox Church.

42:55

My brother and I, for example, were what we call readers within the Orthodox Church, the

43:00

Coptic Orthodox Church. That's very similar to altered boys in the Roman Catholic Church. And later on, this was much later on, my dad would eventually be a deacon in the church or a deacon in the church.

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But praise the Lord, now he has left the church and now he's attending an Arabic speaking evangelical church along with my mom.

43:19

So praise the Lord, they're both saved now. Hallelujah. But they didn't come about until—yeah, so praise the

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Lord. It was a lot of prayer, a lot of discussions and debates, some really hard stuff, too.

43:30

At one point, my father told me, I don't want to talk about theology at all. But it was actually him becoming a deacon in the

43:38

Coptic Church that allowed us to continue to have dialogue because now he had to answer the tough questions of other people.

43:44

And what was the big changing factor? Galatians. When my dad read Galatians and studied it—because

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I told him, I was like, Dad, you've been in the church for over 70 years. Can you tell me what Galatians is about?

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He said, I don't know. I was like, Dad, you're now a deacon in the church. You need to be able to talk about it. I was like, read what

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Galatians says. So he did. And praise the Lord, that started to open his eyes.

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He surrendered to the Lord. And then a little bit later, my mom did, too. And now there couldn't be a more happier order.

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And of course, that was extremely controversial because when you leave the Coptic Orthodox Church, you're officially considered a heretic.

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The fact that my dad left as a deacon in the church just caused a lot more drama.

44:25

Was it specifically the area of Galatians that condemns adding works to the gospel as making your gospel no gospel at all and putting you into a curse and so on?

44:41

Exactly. When he actually attended—so when he became a deacon, he started to take these theology courses that the

44:47

Coptic Church was telling him to learn about. And he started to see something, that the traditions that they had were not truly apostolic.

44:55

They've kind of developed over time. So he started to realize that some of the things that they required for salvation were not prescribed in Scripture.

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And yes, it was that part in Galatians that said, if you add anything to the qualifications of the gospel message, you're not even teaching the gospel at all.

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So honestly, it was Scripture that completely destroyed his Orthodox worldview and caused him to surrender his life to the

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Lord. Now, were your folks immigrants to the United States or are they first -generation

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Americans? Yeah, they both lived in Egypt. And yeah, they moved to the

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U .S. One of the main reasons for them both is that in Egypt is majority a

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Muslim country and there's a high degree of persecution against the Coptic Orthodox and any

45:43

Christians there. And in fact, a lot of people are familiar with those 21 martyrs that were killed by ISIS.

45:52

So in order to get away from that, they came to America to be able to have religious freedom is the reason that they came here.

45:59

Now, I've heard—I don't know if this is true—but I've heard that the Coptics are the number one persecuted peoples of the

46:10

Muslims. Is that true? Of the Muslims, they may very well be.

46:15

They are definitely highly persecuted. And amongst Muslims, they may very well be because within the

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Middle East, they're probably one of the largest groups that identify as being

46:27

Christian. So, yeah, they do suffer a lot of persecution and just a lot of injustices.

46:33

You always hear different stories from different family members, different friends that, you know, if they see you wearing the cross, they'll treat you differently.

46:39

Yeah, there is a lot of persecution there. So take us now back, even before your folks were saved by the grace and mercy of Christ, to your own journey as a

46:54

Coptic believer and the things that started to stand out in your mind that gave you discomfort that you were saying there's something wrong with this.

47:06

Yeah, and just to add to it, too, so when I was in the Orthodox Church and the

47:12

Coptic Church, I was also a Sunday school teacher, so I was studying a lot of this stuff, reading a lot, especially about the saints.

47:18

It wasn't necessarily studying Scripture as much as it was studying about the different saints and living in a way where our family was consistently in the church, where we had priests and bishops and monks always coming to our home.

47:35

We would have countless church services that were held in our home. We had a room that was in the center of the house that we called in Arabic the

47:43

Otah Salah, which is the room of prayer. And we actually had church services there. In fact, when there was a church that was being planted in our area, they would hold the communion elements would be held there.

47:56

So having all these ties to the Coptic Orthodox Church, I really felt like an Orthodox of Orthodox, you know, like Paul saying, a

48:04

Hebrew of Hebrews. But once you start reading what Scripture says, and that's what happened with me,

48:10

I started reading a little bit more about Scripture and started noticing that all these claims that the church says that they are the apostolic church, that their traditions have always continued from the very beginning and hasn't changed at all.

48:23

I was like, the prayer of the saints was one of the big ones at first for me. I was like, where do we see that in Scripture? You know, from Genesis to Revelation, you never see anything even close to that.

48:31

In fact, you see practices that are more condemned when you see Saul reaching out to Samuel, trying to communicate with him that that was considered a practice that was wrong to do.

48:42

So that started me on a long journey of really church hopping and trying to find what is truth.

48:49

Met my wife on eHarmony, and she was also in a very similar situation where she grew up in the church, but started questioning a lot of things that we just saw as conflicts in Scripture, but we didn't know what truth was.

49:01

So it was years of church hopping and seeking truth. And in reality, although I wanted truth,

49:08

I wasn't willing to surrender to it at the time. It wasn't until we had our second daughter and we were really talking about, well, we need to figure this religion thing out, because as the kids get older, we don't want them to grow up confused about what is the truth.

49:24

So that led to us, we were in New Jersey at the time, and that led us to actually

49:29

New York at the time, grew up in Jersey, but lived in New York at the time, to move to Texas.

49:35

Texas just seemed like a place that would be a great place to raise the family. And when we were visiting, I was just praying to the

49:43

Lord, I said, Lord, if you want us to move to Texas and do all that stuff, just find us a church that's actually teaching the truth, because we're struggling with this.

49:51

And lo and behold, when we went and we visited, we visited during the Easter time. We went to a church that was teaching the gospel.

49:57

I don't agree with their secondary doctrines now, but they were at least teaching the gospel. And hearing that, I didn't believe at the time, but I was definitely saying that this is something quite different from what

50:06

I've been exposed to. Their reliance on Scripture, as opposed to man -made tradition, was huge.

50:12

So within a year, we moved to Texas, and three months after I moved to Texas, read through the scriptures and surrendered my life to the

50:21

Lord. About a year afterwards, my wife surrendered her life to the Lord. And we're talking about, I was on my way—my background is in marketing and graphic design—so

50:29

I was on my way to get an MBA. And once I was saved, it's almost like those desires completely left.

50:35

And all I could feel was this burden to share the gospel. And of course, having to relearn so much,

50:41

I ended up going to seminary, started off at Liberty University online. And then when we were in Texas, went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, where I got my master's degree.

50:51

And yeah, it's been an epic journey. But as we've read the scriptures more and more, that led to a more biblical understanding to come to what

51:01

I see as a Reformed Baptist view, which I believe is the most aligned to Scripture.

51:07

And because of where we came from in our background, this burden of sharing with others about what does the

51:14

Orthodox Church actually teach? Because ever since COVID, especially, there has been a huge influx into the

51:20

Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Church, many going into it not knowing what they're getting themselves into.

51:26

We're not just talking about a church that has some different traditions or some different secondary doctrines. We have issues of primary doctrines here.

51:33

We have a different gospel being presented. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and we will get to your questions when we return from the midway break.

51:46

If anybody else would like to get in line to have your questions asked and answered, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

51:55

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. I'm Daniel Wolford, CEO and President of Lebanonfield Credit Union, and we're excited to be part of the

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That's liyfc .org. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a longtime partnership with our friends at CBBVS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the great commission, supporting, and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth.

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At Linbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired word of God, inerrant in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

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That's L -Y -N -Brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.

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It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

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The Lord bless you in the knowledge of himself. Hello, my name is

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Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

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website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show, like I do, you can now find it on the

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith, please join us at hope reform

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Baptist church in quorum, New York. Again, I'm pastor Anthony video, and thanks for listening. If you love iron sharpens iron radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate. Now, last but not least, if you're not a member of a

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Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Bethel Baptist Church of Gorham, New York, well,

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I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I've helped many people in the

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So if you're without a church home, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put,

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I need a church in the subject line. And that's also the email address to send in a question to Samuel Farag, our guest today discussing his journey out of the

01:07:21

Coptic Orthodox Church. chrisarnson at gmail .com gives his first name at least, city and state and country of residence, and we have

01:07:29

Joey in New Rochelle, New York, who says, I'm not sure if I missed this, but could

01:07:37

Samuel share more on what specifically he was seeing in Scripture that made him wish to search elsewhere for truth outside of the

01:07:46

Coptic Orthodox Church? Yeah, that's a great question.

01:07:52

So when I was looking at Scripture, what I saw is that the contrast between what

01:07:58

Christ was commanding and what the Church was basically telling us to do, like I said, the extra -biblical is what

01:08:05

I basically what I saw was missing in the Scriptures. You saw that we were commanded to ask the saints for prayers, the icon veneration, even the structure of the liturgy or the priests, for example, that you look at, you see the

01:08:22

Old Testament priests, but in the New Testament, you see that it's the office of elder and very different types of functions.

01:08:29

So those were the things that I saw as a contrast, which really opened my eyes that what the

01:08:35

Orthodox Church is promoting, what the Coptic Orthodox Church is promoting, is not the same thing that Jesus was promoting.

01:08:41

In fact, when you read what Jesus is saying, you see that it's all about surrendering to Him and having faith in Him alone, and that is what leads to salvation.

01:08:51

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, there was no assurance of salvation. My wife would often talk about how she would go to sleep and be afraid of waking up the next night, because would she make it to heaven or hell?

01:09:02

What would happen? So seeing that assurance of salvation, seeing that you can actually put your faith in the

01:09:10

Lord—I mean, Romans 10, 9 and 10, because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is

01:09:18

Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. But with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

01:09:31

So when you read verses like that and you see it all throughout Scripture, it's in direct contrast with the

01:09:38

Coptic Orthodox Church. And that's why for me Romans 10, 9 is the passage that I look at as what people say, like my life verse.

01:09:46

You know, that's the passage I look at that has the gospel right there and is in stark contrast to the

01:09:52

Coptic Orthodox Church. Well, thank you, Joey. Now we have

01:09:57

Stacey in Claremont, New Hampshire. Stacey wants to know,

01:10:03

I heard you say earlier that both of your parents eventually came to embrace the true gospel of Jesus Christ, but before then, did you have a lot of hostility from them or any other family members for leaving the

01:10:16

Coptic Church? So the big thing was this. When we were attending a different church, and even when we surrendered to the

01:10:25

Lord, that wasn't the part that really got them upset. It's the baptism that really got them upset. When we were baptized, following the obedience of the

01:10:33

Lord and being baptized in believers baptism, that to them was the biggest insult to them.

01:10:40

Where my parents were supportive in the sense that I was taking religion more seriously, although especially with my mom, she really wanted me to be back in the

01:10:49

Orthodox Church. But she still was supportive of the fact that I was growing in my faith, as she saw.

01:10:56

However, with other family members, that was not necessarily the case. We had some family members who outright cut us off immediately, refused to speak to us.

01:11:05

We were told that we were leaving our culture behind, that we were leaving our people behind.

01:11:10

We were leaving the true church. So it's been hard. Even to this day, there are certain people that we don't speak with anymore, or it becomes awkward.

01:11:18

You walk into a room and they don't want to speak to you, or they used to ask you a lot of questions. Oh, how's work and everything?

01:11:24

Now they don't talk about that at all. A family member said to me, I don't trust you at all now. So it is hard.

01:11:30

But when you count the cost of sacrificing those relationships to have a relationship with the

01:11:37

Lord, it is absolutely well worth it. My parents right now are also going through the same thing.

01:11:44

Certain people who are friends of theirs have a different type of relationship. You have some people who are still, on friendly terms of them, still supportive.

01:11:52

Some who are even supportive, that they see that, yes, you're growing in your faith of the Lord. That's a good thing. But for the most part, most were met with hostility or just ignoring us.

01:12:05

Excellent question. By the way, I know that you are of an Egyptian background.

01:12:11

Are there any other ethnicities where Coptic Orthodoxy may be a dominant religion?

01:12:22

Mostly it's in Egypt. There are certain places in the U .S. where a lot of Middle Eastern places are, like in New Jersey, in California, in Texas, in some areas where there's a majority of an

01:12:35

Egyptian population. You'll find a decent amount of Coptic people there. But mostly it is in Egypt.

01:12:41

I know that Ethiopia had a strong relationship with Egypt too, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the

01:12:47

Coptic Orthodox Church. At one point, I don't believe this is the case right now, but at one point, their patriarch was considered the

01:12:53

Coptic patriarch. So there's that relationship there. But no, they're mostly in Egypt or in the

01:13:00

States or in Australia. But more people who have moved from Egypt to those areas.

01:13:07

Corey in West Babylon, Long Island, New York, says, I don't think

01:13:13

I heard this earlier, but are Coptic priests and bishops permitted to marry?

01:13:20

They are, yes. Well, I should say, Coptic priests, not bishops. Bishops are monks, but Coptic priests are allowed to be married.

01:13:29

I should say, if you're married already, you become a priest. But if you're not married, when you become a priest, you would actually stay celibate.

01:13:38

Really? Then afterwards, yeah. So I don't believe that once you become a priest, you can then get married.

01:13:45

So it's usually people who are already married who are usually—most Coptic priests are married, although I know somebody who—it's rare, but you see it sometimes where they're not married at all, but they've chosen to do that.

01:13:57

Now, is that the same position that Eastern Orthodoxy holds? I believe they have the same views as that, where their priests can be married, but it's the monks and the bishops or the patriarchs, they are not married.

01:14:15

So, obviously, you can't become a bishop or a monk unless you have never been married before entering the priesthood, or you're a widower.

01:14:31

Yes. There may be cases where a person was married before, or, yeah, if it was a widower, yeah.

01:14:39

Yeah. Okay, and is there anything unique to the

01:14:45

Coptic Church about their priesthood? No, it's very similar in a lot of ways to Catholicism.

01:14:58

For example, their priesthood, and within the Catholic—sorry, the

01:15:03

Coptic Church or the Oriental Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, I would say it's practically identical with their practice.

01:15:11

Okay, we have Vernon in Stanford, Connecticut, who wants to know,

01:15:17

I know that amongst Eastern Orthodox churches, you have some that are ultra -liberal that are actually blessing same -sex unions, but I was wondering if that kind of thing exists amongst the

01:15:33

Coptics. Yeah, I was actually shocked myself when I was watching one of Jason Wallace's videos exposing the heresies of Eastern Orthodoxy, and by the way, you can find out more about Jason Wallace, who is the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah.

01:15:59

He is a documentarian and has created many documentaries, including those on Eastern Orthodoxy, and I think he may mention briefly the

01:16:12

Coptic Orthodox in at least one of those videos. Is that your memory?

01:16:20

Yeah, in fact, I believe one of the clips was of a Coptic Orthodox priest, and that in which

01:16:27

I trained under. At one point, I took a course that would be considered seminary level in the Coptic Orthodox Church, if I chose to use it that way.

01:16:34

It was considered like a pre -servant class, and the person that was there, he wasn't a priest at the time, but later on he became a priest.

01:16:40

In fact, he's the one who is not married as a priest. Well, you could go to YouTube and type in Jason Wallace Eastern Orthodox Documentary, and that will come up.

01:16:56

And for Jason's personal website, GospelUtah .org, GospelUtah .org.

01:17:03

But yeah, I was taking it back because I didn't know that, just like with Roman Catholics, you have some far -out left -wing

01:17:13

Eastern Orthodox as well. I always wrongly assumed that they were all more of a conservative bent, but does that left -wing phenomenon exist amongst the

01:17:28

Coptics? Oh, yeah. I mean, within the churches themselves, like the leaders of the church, they're probably more in the conservative view.

01:17:36

But there's a wide range, and you do have some that have more liberal views. So you do see that.

01:17:42

It's very similar to the Eastern Orthodox, where a majority would be considered conservative, but you have those who are more liberal.

01:17:48

Now, amongst the congregation, you see an even greater diversity. Because for me,

01:17:54

I was born into the church. I'm considered a cradle. I was born into the church. So a lot of people who are born in a church, going to church is just a part of their tradition and culture.

01:18:03

So sometimes they have a wide variety of different theological beliefs. So this claim that you go into the

01:18:08

Orthodox church and, oh, you have so much unity, it is external unity, but it's not truly internal unity.

01:18:16

You have actually far more unity when you have Bible -believing churches. Or, for example, last week

01:18:22

I was at Shepherds Conference. You're talking about pastors from all across the world coming together, some in different denominations coming together, but we're like -minded in belief where there is true, actual unity.

01:18:33

You don't actually typically see that in an Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox church because people are just born into it, and they have various different beliefs.

01:18:41

Yes, and the accusation has been often made, and it is one of the primary slanderous accusations against evangelicalism, that the understanding or belief and practice of sola scriptura leads to chaos, or as one famous Roman Catholic apologist phrased it, sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy.

01:19:16

They act as if they are some kind of monolithic group and that their view—in this case,

01:19:23

Rome—their view of the magisterium and infallible papacy protects them and is an impenetrable guardrail that keeps them from all kinds of divisions among them.

01:19:41

That's just absurd, and even though we do have a lot of differences amongst evangelicals.

01:19:47

But at the same time, when you're talking about evangelicals that believe in sola scriptura, that are truly biblical churches, the gospel that we share is the same, and the primary teachings of the

01:20:08

Scriptures are the same, whereas in Rome and in Eastern Orthodoxy, as we've already established, you can have all kinds of leftist and bizarre beliefs among church leadership.

01:20:24

Now, of course, those things exist amongst mainline Protestants, but we believe that they're apostate.

01:20:31

We don't believe that they are part of the evangelical church, and you can't compare apples and oranges.

01:20:38

Roman Catholics mix in in their rhetoric the mainline leftist

01:20:46

Protestants, which is just not even a fair comparison. The Orthodox do that all the time.

01:20:52

That's their main apologetic strategy is, let's take those in the mainline, let's take those prosperity teachers and false teachers and mix them in with true authentic biblical churches and say, look at them, they're all the same.

01:21:04

But that's just an apologetic tactic. It's not actually faithful. There is true unity amongst those who are united in the gospel message.

01:21:14

Now, what would you recommend? And I know that these kinds of things, you really can't develop a one -size -fits -all, cookie -cutter approach to evangelism, but perhaps you could just give us some basic examples of icebreaking when, let's say, you're invited over a neighbor's home for a meal, a barbecue, or you invite them over to your home, and they're

01:21:47

Coptic, and you're sitting around enjoying a conversation and a meal, and how would you recommend starting to bring up the unique differences that they have from we who are

01:22:07

Bible -believing Christians in a way that doesn't immediately hit them over the head with a sledgehammer and have them either leave our home or have us kick out of their home?

01:22:24

And I'm not talking about candy -coating the truth, I'm not talking about skirting the issues, sweeping things under the rug, but there are legitimate reasons why an incremental approach, when you know you're going to have an opportunity for perhaps a long -lasting friendship and a revisitation of discussion on eternal matters, it is different than if you're sitting on a bus next to somebody or on a plane or train or in a waiting room somewhere when that might be the last time you ever speak to that person.

01:23:02

But in this case, where we have an opportunity for more meaningful dialogue, tell us about that.

01:23:09

Any suggestions that you have? Yeah, first and foremost, what I would suggest is do not go and say, oh, so you guys are just like the

01:23:18

Catholics. Or, you know, once you start saying to an Orthodox person, whether they're Eastern or Oriental, oh, you're just like this other group like the

01:23:26

Catholics, they'll immediately shut off. So definitely don't do that.

01:23:32

It is important to get an idea of what they believe. So some research ahead of time is helpful.

01:23:38

I would say two sources, one for Orthodoxy, one against Orthodoxy, which is good.

01:23:44

Rock and Sand by Josiah Trenum is written from an Eastern Orthodox perspective, and he spends the first half of the book giving his view of what he sees as a

01:23:54

Reformation. There's a lot of problems with it, and then he gives the Orthodox belief of what they believe. But I would pair that with Disillusion by Joshua Schuping, who has gone into the

01:24:04

Orthodox Church, became a priest in it, and then got out of it. He's really good because he talks about the attractions. And then in his second edition, he actually has a response to Rock and Sand, which really confronts a lot of the issues in Rock and Sand.

01:24:19

So going in there with that is very helpful. Another thing to keep in mind is defining terms.

01:24:25

So just like when you're interacting with Jehovah's Witness and Mormons and they say, we believe in Jesus too.

01:24:30

Well, we need to define who's this Jesus that you say you believe in. Same thing when it comes to Orthodoxy, whether you're dealing with Eastern Orthodoxy or Coptic Orthodoxy.

01:24:40

Make sure to define terms. So for example, when I state in the 32 years that I was in the

01:24:45

Coptic Church, I will say, I never heard the gospel. Now, we understand the gospel message based on what the

01:24:51

Bible says. That's the whole entire message of Christ and him coming down and dying for us and putting our faith in him—the whole gospel message.

01:24:59

To many in the Orthodox Church, that's not what gospel means to them. When you say gospel, they're thinking

01:25:05

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So their response will be like, oh, no, you've definitely heard that. If you attended an

01:25:11

Orthodox Church liturgy, well, then you did hear the gospel. You did hear Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John being read.

01:25:19

So defining terms is very important. And I wouldn't also just assume that they have a proper understanding of what even

01:25:27

Orthodoxy believes, because many in the Orthodox Church don't even understand their own beliefs. So defining terms is helpful, not just associating them with a specific group is an example.

01:25:38

And then when there is conflict, the best thing to do is not quote somebody or whatever, whoever they may be, is to quote

01:25:47

Scripture. Bring it to Scripture and say, well, here's what Scripture says. One of the challenging things that you often see in the

01:25:54

Orthodox Church—I remember this when a Coptic Orthodox priest came to us and he shared we were doing a reading on the prodigal son.

01:26:02

Well, they use allegorical interpretation. So he would say, well, this actually is about the divine liturgy.

01:26:08

So they practice a lot of allegorical interpretation. So when we're showing them Scripture, let's use proper hermeneutics when we're showing them.

01:26:16

Show them what the text says. If the Greek and the Hebrew is relevant, bring that in.

01:26:22

Bring in the context. Show them and display to them proper hermeneutics, because a lot of people feel like in the

01:26:28

Orthodox Church that they can't interpret the Scriptures on their own. They need their priest because they have their allegorical interpretations.

01:26:34

But truly, we see that Christ used Scripture over and over again in his arguments and discussions with the

01:26:41

Pharisees and the scribes, and we should do likewise. So that would be my advice in interacting with those in the

01:26:46

Orthodox Church. Yes. No need to get bogged down in things that are not the essential truths of the

01:26:56

Scripture. And, of course, saying things in ignorance where the person you're talking to is immediately going to recognize, this person doesn't know what they're talking about, so I'm not going to listen to them.

01:27:11

I mean, obviously, somebody outside of the gospel may think or say that anyway, even if it's false.

01:27:20

You may know exactly what you're talking about. But if you start saying juvenile remarks, oh, you're just like Roman Catholics or whatever, because that's not even true.

01:27:32

I mean, there are specific differences, great differences. So, yeah, we have to be very careful about that kind of thing.

01:27:42

And, obviously, pouring love into everything that we say and do when we are evangelizing is very important.

01:27:57

And even though this is a completely different scenario, I'm constantly reminded of Rosaria Butterfield, who was a lesbian and leftist

01:28:08

Marxist tenured professor in upstate

01:28:13

New York, who eventually came to Christ, and it was through the evangelism of a

01:28:19

Presbyterian pastor and his wife who were inviting her repeatedly over their home for meals.

01:28:26

And, eventually, the Lord opened up her heart to the truth of the gospel.

01:28:35

Tom, we're going to our final break right now, and if you do have a question, our email address is chrisarenson at gmail .com.

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01:41:42

Civilian ownership of body armor is about increasing decentralized power and by comparison reducing the advantages of centralized power.

01:41:51

The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king. As Americans, we hate the word king applied to any mere man.

01:42:00

We are Armored Republic and in a republic there is no king but Christ. Arm yourself with tools of liberty at armoredrepublic .com.

01:42:10

And folks, please don't ever forget that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.

01:42:18

If you are the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice, please call

01:42:25

Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com.

01:42:36

You may call Buttafuoco and Associates from anywhere in the

01:42:41

United States if you are the victim of a personal injury or medical malpractice and always mention that you heard about Buttafuoco and Associates from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

01:42:53

Also, I want to remind all men in ministry leadership that you are invited to the next two free

01:43:03

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio pastors luncheons. The first is going to be held

01:43:08

May 1st featuring guest speaker Dr. Jason Lyle, who is a world -renowned

01:43:13

Christian astrophysicist and sixth -day creationist.

01:43:20

And we are still not 100 % sure what location we're going to be able to use for that luncheon.

01:43:30

There was a conflict with the other church that we had previously used, but May 1st is the date of that luncheon.

01:43:40

And Thursday, September 18th is the following luncheon, the fall luncheon, featuring

01:43:47

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. That will be held at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, as many of my other luncheons have been held there.

01:43:59

So, if you'd like to register for either or both of those luncheons, it's free of charge. And not only is your meal free and your opportunity to hear these two brilliant speakers free, everybody in attendance will get free brand new books selected by me and donated by Christian publishers all over the

01:44:19

United States and United Kingdom. So, if you want to register for either or both of these events, send me an email to chrisarensen at gmail .com

01:44:27

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line and put May 1st,

01:44:33

September 18th, or both of those dates, if you intend to attend both.

01:44:39

Well, we are now back with Samuel Farag, and I wanted to ask you,

01:44:47

Samuel, any of those family members that were very hostile towards you.

01:44:53

I know that you've already said, as we've repeated, your parents came to Christ later in life, but have you reconciled with any of those other family members who were practically disowning you?

01:45:11

Yeah, there have been some where we've seen some type of healing. I had one family member who was, yeah, very hostile and about really focused that we went to a different church and was very critical of Protestants in general.

01:45:25

Over time, his views on Protestants have softened. He's still part of the

01:45:31

Orthodox Church, but now when we've discussed a lot of the problematic teachings within the Orthodox Church, he has actually said that he disagrees with them.

01:45:38

So, that's pretty big when a person is specifically saying they disagree with the Church in those areas.

01:45:44

So, we've seen much softening in that area. So, there has been some relationships that have been healed.

01:45:51

And, of course, when we first became believers, we were very zealous—didn't have as much wisdom in sharing the gospel message initially.

01:46:00

We were just very zealous and not yet mature. So, there were things that we apologized to for coming off very, very strong and just going through that process of sanctification and maturing there.

01:46:11

So, yeah, there has been a lot of healing in some of the relationships. Well, we have to make sure that we once again highlight the primary reasons why you and I believe the

01:46:27

Coptic religion, along with their cousins, the Eastern Orthodox, and also the

01:46:34

Church of Rome—primary reasons they are false churches is because of their false gospel of believing that humans have the ability to add a single thing to the finished worth of Christ in order to merit their salvation, in order to make themselves right before God, acceptable by Him.

01:47:04

We actually have the ability to add anything.

01:47:09

And not only that we have that ability, we're demanded by these false religions to do this, and therefore making their gospels false.

01:47:21

And the other would be the rampant idolatry. Wouldn't you say that those are the two key areas that would make all of these churches—Coptic,

01:47:33

Eastern Orthodox, and the Church of Rome—false churches? Absolutely, yeah. I define them absolutely as apostate churches because they add so many requirements to salvation.

01:47:45

And as we see when we read Galatians, the Judaizers agreed with Paul with what he was saying for the most part, but they just added a few additional things.

01:47:54

And that alone makes it a different gospel. So we have to understand that factor. And the other part in the idolatry, it is quite problematic all throughout the

01:48:04

Catholic, the Orientals, the Eastern Orthodox. The idolatry is over the top.

01:48:10

The way that Mary is viewed is just extremely inappropriate and does not actually give her honor.

01:48:18

It actually dishonors her. And if we really study history, we can see where this inappropriate veneration of Mary came from.

01:48:26

The Proto -Evangelion of James, a late 2nd century document filled with contradictions with the

01:48:32

Scriptures, mentioned all these different ideas about Mary. That's where they pull a lot of it from.

01:48:38

They don't view that document as Scripture, but they take so much away from it, and it evolves into the beliefs that they have.

01:48:46

And then if we study especially the post -Constantine, Emperor Constantine, and post -Emperor

01:48:52

Theodosius era, where you have nominal Christianity coming into the visible church, that's where you see a lot of these pagan practices.

01:49:00

Because people were coming from paganism to become Christians for all the wrong reasons, they brought a lot of their pagan practices in there, one of which being the way icons were treated, which is a different way.

01:49:11

It's very similar to how idols were treated in pagans, and also the fact that pagans had goddesses.

01:49:17

Mary became treated like a goddess, and that's where the problems really come from. So if we actually just look at what church history has shown us, we can learn a lot.

01:49:24

And then we see what Scripture says. We know that we have the authority to say that what they are teaching is a completely different gospel, and they teach some of the most dangerous teaching that anyone could sit under.

01:49:35

Okay, we have Justice in East Rutherford, New Jersey.

01:49:41

Justice says, I have heard that the Eastern Orthodox put more emphasis on the manger than the cross when it comes to salvation.

01:49:53

In other words, they give more credit to the Incarnation than the crucifixion.

01:49:59

Is this true, and do the Coptics share that? Yeah, I would say especially when you look at…in the

01:50:06

Eastern Orthodoxy, theosis is their central belief, and it all has to do with the

01:50:12

Incarnation. So yes, the Incarnation plays a huge factor. Even their view on icons, they try to make their justification through the

01:50:20

Incarnation. So yes, I can see a lot of it being focused on the Incarnation.

01:50:26

I would say likewise, the Coptics are very similar, because there is an emphasis, obviously, on what Christ did on the cross, but they hold more to a victory model of the

01:50:35

Atonement, but not in penal substitutionary Atonement. So that view is more frowned upon.

01:50:42

Although if you look at church history, you see that that wasn't the case, actually, with the early fathers. But what you'll see in Eastern Orthodoxy and the

01:50:50

Oriental Orthodox and Catholics, they are very much cherry -picking the church fathers.

01:50:55

They're not reading them in context. They're actually cherry -picking and only using what fits their modern beliefs that they currently have.

01:51:04

Now, we who are theologically Reformed, aka

01:51:09

Calvinists, believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace, when it comes to the substitutionary

01:51:16

Atonement, even though it is far more in vogue today for Arminians and non -Reformed

01:51:24

Christians to claim that title for their understanding of the cross, they really don't believe in it, because if Christ died for anybody's substitute, there's no way that that person's going to hell.

01:51:39

Where we who are Reformed are the only ones that believe every single person for whom

01:51:44

Christ died as a substitute will be in heaven. So we're really unique even in the crowd of evangelicals on that, aren't we?

01:51:55

Exactly. That's why we don't have those problems. When you have a belief and you start comparing it to everything else, yes, you'll find that those who have a non -Calvinistic view run into those problems all the time and have a hard time explaining that.

01:52:07

Whereas for us, because we're surrendering to the truth of Scripture, it all fits perfectly well together.

01:52:13

And I've even heard non -Calvinists say, but it fits a little bit too perfectly. But this is the

01:52:19

Lord who gave it. Yeah, so it's supposed to fit perfectly. It's supposed to give us comfort.

01:52:25

The doctrines that are in Scripture are supposed to give us comfort and supposed to give us the proper way in which we are to instruct and to teach and to rebuke.

01:52:35

So it's going to be perfect, but man's doctrines are going to be filled with holes. And that's the main thing that you'll see with some of those who are non -Calvinists.

01:52:44

They're still our brothers and sisters in Christ, but they do have certain beliefs that have problems because they're actually man -made doctrines, man -made beliefs.

01:52:52

And then you have the Orientals and the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics who actually are apostate churches because they've taken man -made tradition to the same extent that the

01:53:01

Pharisees and the Scribes did. Now, before we go, I also want you to give a summary of your beliefs that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:53:13

But before that, I think we should probably make a couple of things clear.

01:53:18

When we are saying that these religions are false religions, they are not true

01:53:25

Christianity, and they do not possess a true gospel, there's a couple of things that the hearer should know.

01:53:34

We're not being hateful by saying this. If you really love someone and you're concerned about their eternity, you're going to want to, by God's grace and mercy, bring correction and repentance to their lives over these matters.

01:53:53

That's the first thing. And the second thing is, I'm sure you would likely agree, and I'll have you confirm that in a minute, that there are genuine

01:54:04

Christians among these false religions that God's elect do exist, even among these false religions, because they, either out of ignorance of what their own false religions teach about the gospel, and they actually believe a true gospel, or for some reason, they believe in a true gospel and are remaining in these false religions for a variety of reasons.

01:54:36

Some people think they're going to be a Martin Luther in the 21st century and bring about reformation in their religions, or sometimes it's just people don't want to be kicked out of their homes, they don't want to be disowned by their family, they don't want to have their spouses leave them, and we could go on and on.

01:54:57

But would you agree with those two points I made about what we are talking about, not being hate speech, and also that we do believe that we have brethren in Christ who are among these false religions in spite of the teachings that they have in these religions, not because of them?

01:55:18

Yes, I absolutely agree with both. Yes, if we're loving, we truly love people, we have to share the truth.

01:55:24

We're not doing it because we want to be mean to people, but they desperately need to hear the truth, and that's why we're doing what we're doing.

01:55:30

And yes, the other thing is that there are true believers, even within the Church—and you explained it perfectly well—that a lot of them are just pure ignorance.

01:55:37

They don't know what the Church actually teaches. And the other part is that they know what the Church teaches, they reject it, but they have different reasons to join it.

01:55:45

In fact, the Martin Luther approach was something that I started off—the first thing when I started noticing different differences in beliefs was, maybe

01:55:53

I can make a difference. But you start realizing that it's such a system where it's like Martin Luther, where you realize that they already have their established system, it's very hard to change them.

01:56:03

But now we go and we speak about what the truth is and hope that others will hear the truth and leave it in God's timing.

01:56:11

But yeah, absolutely, there are people within Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox who are actual true believers.

01:56:18

Well, please summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today. What I want people to take away from this is how vital

01:56:28

Scripture is and that we do not need another substitute for Scripture. Many of the

01:56:33

Orthodox apologists will try to make this argument that you need this group, this infallible group, to interpret the

01:56:40

Scriptures for you. That's not the case. They'll say, look who gave you the Scriptures.

01:56:46

We gave you the Scriptures as the Church, but the reality is that argument wouldn't have worked with the Old Testament Scriptures.

01:56:52

The Old Testament Scriptures would have been put together by the Pharisees and scribes, but we weren't supposed to follow them, we were supposed to follow

01:56:57

Christ. And Christ showed us that we are supposed to lean on what Scripture says alone. So let's follow the hermeneutics that Christ gave us and lean on the

01:57:06

Scriptures in all our conversations, in all our life, and apply it to our lives. Amen. And other than ExpositingtheWord .org,

01:57:14

do you have any other websites or contact information? Most of it's on there.

01:57:22

There's a YouTube channel for Expositing the Word. Bethel Baptist Church of Gorham, New York, has a

01:57:27

YouTube page. And just be on the lookout, I'm working with Brandon Kibber from American Gospel on a teaching series on the

01:57:33

Eastern Orthodoxy through the Lens of Scripture, similar to Mike Gendron's work on Catholicism.

01:57:39

So that, Lord willing, will be recorded soon, and we'll have it out there soon on AGTV. Well, thank you so much for being such a superb guest.

01:57:49

I look forward to many frequent returns by you to this program, and I look forward to,

01:57:55

God willing, meeting you in person sometime. And I want everybody who listened to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater