March 12, 2025 Show with Samuel Farag on “One Man’s Journey out of Coptic Orthodoxy into the Reformed Faith”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 12th day of March 2025.

Excuse me for the frog in my throat that came out of nowhere. Today, we have a first-time guest that I'm excited to interview, and we're going to be addressing a subject that we have not delved into for a full two hours, and that is the subject of the Coptic Orthodox Church.

I have done interviews on Eastern Orthodoxy, but as we will discover from my guest, Samuel Farag, that they are not identical. Samuel Farag is a Reformed Christian apologist. He is founder of ExpositingTheWord .org and pastor of Bethel Baptist Church of Gorham, New York, and we're going to be addressing From Egypt to Geneva, One Man's Journey Out of Coptic Oriental Orthodoxy into the Reformed Faith.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Samuel Farag.

Thank you so much for having me, Chris. I really appreciate it.

Well, first of all, tell our listeners something about Bethel Baptist Church of Gorham, New York.

So we're part of Village Missions. I'm a missionary of Village Missions, where the heart of Village Missions is to send pastors to be full-time at rural churches, where if that church closes down, there is no gospel witness in the area.

So I'm serving out in Gorham, New York. It's a largely Mennonite community there, and we're bringing the Word of God there, sharing with them deep biblical truth in western New York.

Praise God. And what kind of Mennonites would be dominating that area? Would they be the more liberal Mennonites or the more old-school Mennonites?

We have a mix of both, but, you know, you'll have a lot of the old-school ones. So, for example, you'll have a lot of horse and buggies going off throughout town, but you also have some of the more liberal kind or the ones with different types of rules that they have.

Okay. Well, I am looking forward to this conversation because, as I said, even though I've done programs on Eastern Orthodoxy, I have never delved into the Oriental Orthodox Church, or otherwise known as the Coptic Church.

Perhaps, before we even go into your specific testimony, which will take up the dominant part of this discussion today, perhaps you can tell us about the main tenets of Oriental Orthodoxy and compare and contrast Oriental Orthodoxy, or as I said, the Coptic Church, with Eastern Orthodoxy and even Roman Catholicism.

Yeah, that's a great question because a lot of people don't know the difference between the two. So, yeah, being born and raised in the Coptic Orthodox Church—I was in it for 32 years—they are part of the Oriental Orthodox Church.

So, the Coptic Church is part of the Oriental Orthodox Church. Other churches that are also within the Oriental Orthodox Church include the Syriac Church, the Syriac Malakara Church, the Armenian Church, Ethiopian Church, and the Eritrean.

Churches.

The Oriental Orthodox Church is not in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church, yet some of the churches do have these types of agreements within each other. So, for example, the Greek Orthodox Church, which is an Eastern Orthodox Church, does have some agreements with the Coptic Orthodox Church, I believe related to marriage, potentially with communion, too.

So, there may be some agreements, but both churches see each other as outside and separate. So, each church believes that they are the Ark of Salvation, that you only can get salvation through them.

Do they accept your baptism as a Coptic?

So, I'll give an example, because I know some people who have left the Coptic Orthodox Church and joined the Eastern Orthodox Church. For example, that's my brother. He's actually left the Coptic Orthodox Church to join the Eastern Orthodox Church, and he didn't have to have another baptism, but he did have to be chrismated again.

So, in chrismation, that's when they put the oil on you. And actually, within the Orthodox Churches, both the Eastern and the Oriental, they believe you receive the Holy Spirit at the point of the chrismation.

That's where they actually believe you receive the Holy Spirit.

Which is not even anywhere remotely in the Bible at all.

Not at all. And that's what you'll see as the major theme within the Oriental and the Eastern Orthodox Church. And, of course, at the Catholic Church, like we know, a lot of beliefs that have no basis in Scripture whatsoever, but they will make appeals to oral tradition, and they will state that this is the way that the apostles practiced, even though we have no written record or command from the Savior or any of the apostles or any writings in Scripture at all.

Well, what would be some of the other major tenets of the Coptic Church that would differ from Eastern Orthodoxy?

The biggest and main difference is that the Oriental Orthodox Church actually split from the rest of Christendom in 451 A .D. due to the Council of Chalcedon. That's because they did not accept it. So, that was the fourth ecumenical council.

So, in the Coptic Church and for the rest of the Oriental Orthodox Church, they only believe in the three ecumenical councils, whereas Eastern Orthodoxy believe in seven ecumenical councils. The reason this is such a big deal is that for both churches, an ecumenical council is considered infallible.

It is held to the same level for them as Scripture. They believe it's inspired by Scripture. So, when they base their teachings, they're not just teaching through Scripture. They're looking at these councils as completely authoritative and infallible.

So, that is probably one of the most significant differences between the churches and for a lot of people. Because if you actually look at their actual theology and practice, it's almost identical. I used to, growing up, go to Eastern Orthodox churches because we had a family friend who was Eastern Orthodox.

Their family and our family are close friends. So, we would attend with them church, and it looked almost identical, except for the fact that if you get into the technical. If you actually ask a lot of churchgoers, they sometimes don't even know what the differences are.

But the councils is a big difference, and within that difference, the Oriental Orthodox believe that the way that they would say that Jesus is of two natures, and what that is called is Maya theatrism.

And not to be confused with monotheatrism, which is sometimes what they're accused of believing, which is heretical, but Maya theatrism, which is they believe that Jesus' nature is human nature and his divine nature are one nature.

And the way they'll say it is without mingling, without confusion, without alteration. This also leads them to the belief that Jesus has just one will, or as the Eastern Orthodox church, the way that they would say is that Jesus is in two natures, diotheatism.

So, Jesus has two natures, one divine and one human. So, they also believe that Jesus has a divine will and a human will, and that's where lies the big difference. So, the amount of councils that are accepted and this differences of belief in how exactly the natures of Christ are viewed, those would be the biggest differences.

Although, based on who you speak with, if you look at what a lot of Orthodox theologians have seen, a lot of it seems like they're both trying to say the same thing in different ways, and they're both trying to avoid heretical things, where a lot of people think that if it was just maybe a better understanding that there wouldn't have been that division back then, and others are like, no, absolutely not, whatever the other side believes is completely heretical.

So, some see it as a significant difference, others see it as a minor difference.

And what would be any difference that the Coptics may have in regard to—well, let me just start with them one at a time, some of the other things. Is this veneration of Mary and the saints, is there any difference in the way and the manner and what is intended by this?

And perhaps you could even throw in the differences that they would have with Rome, if any, on these issues.

Yeah. So, when it comes to the differences with Mary and the saints, it is virtually identical in the way that they view Mary. They view Mary in a place where they give her a lot of titles that would only belong to Christ.

I would say the difference being in Eastern Orthodoxy, it's way more explicit. So, even though I grew up Oriental Orthodox, the majority of my study actually lies in Eastern Orthodoxy. One of the reasons being is that they have a lot more written down that is considered infallible Church teachings that the Church has.

So, in the Oriental and Orthodox Church, anytime a hymn is said in Church, that hymn is considered infallible. So, if it's a hymn that's used by the Church, they can only use hymns that they consider as infallible.

Again, another source that they claim has the same authority of Scripture. And the Eastern Orthodox are especially big on the hymns that they have for Mary. And the things that they say about Mary in the Eastern Orthodox Church, it's shocking.

So, an example of some of them is that they call Mary the propitiation for the whole world, that she is the restoration of men, that she is the forgiveness for many who have stumbled, that she is the gate of salvation, the provider of God's mercy.

And it goes on and on. We can read a whole list of how they describe Mary. The Orientals, in similar fashion, call Mary Savior. And the way that, especially how they treat her, they will make the distinction between veneration and worship, both Orthodox churches.

However, if you actually interact with the people, it does appear their actions as idolatry. They have Mary all over their homes, pictures of Mary. They intercede to Mary before going to Christ, and sometimes instead of, because of how much they value Mary.

In fact, a common thing that they'll say is, oh, well, go to Mary because Mary is compassionate. And whatever you tell to Mary, Jesus will listen to you. So you'll actually find certain people only really praying to Mary, only seeking her because they see that she has this ability to intercede for them in a way that they couldn't if they just prayed to God directly.

Yeah.

The Roman Catholic Church has this same mindset where Mary, I mean, you can't say that every Catholic obviously is identical in the way that they approach these things. But they have a long-held tradition of believing that it is safer to go to Christ through Mary as if we need Mary as a mediator between men and Christ.

And I'm sure you have likely read or heard read some of the absolutely blasphemous and heretical prayers by Alphonse Liguori, where—go ahead.

No, no, no. Continue.

Sorry. But anyway, it's a similar situation. You know, Jesus is not going to turn away his mother if you go to her as a mediator.

Yeah, that's exactly what they're trying to say, is that, yes, if you go yourself, like in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they have this kind of like this prayer that is showing this dialogue between Jesus, Mary, and a person who's asking for forgiveness of sins.

And he keeps appealing to Mary because he's afraid to go directly to Christ. And Christ keeps rejecting. He keeps saying, no, he's the worst of sinners. No, he doesn't deserve it. And Mary is pleading, for my sake, do it.

At the very end, Jesus says, fine, for your sake, I'll forgive his sins, even though he doesn't need it. So when you have this as part of what you believe, you're going to find many people gravitating towards Mary.

And you're right, it's not everybody. There are certain people who are within the Church who don't lean on Mary so much, but it is a majority of people because of the practices that they have.

Do they believe that she was immaculately conceived?

No, not immaculately conceived, but they will say that she was sinless, that she would still be—as a human, because she was born, she would still have sin, but she herself didn't sin.

It was only the sin of Adam that she had? Is that what you mean?

Correct. Yep, yep. They have a different way of explaining it than, say, how Catholics or Protestants would explain it. But their main thing is that she herself, by her own will, never sinned. And then this is where Eastern Orthodoxy takes it to an even greater degree.

And I believe the Coptic Church also believes this part, too, is that they believe that Mary was actually raised in the Holy of Holies, which, theologically, there's massive, massive problems with that, to the point where Eastern Orthodoxy actually has feasts and holidays celebrating this.

And if you read some of the writings of some of these early Church fathers that they look up to, I believe Gregory Palamos, he actually says that the idea of salvation itself, Mary offered it up to God, in a sense.

And so it is quite problematic, and some have taken it to even more extremes. But, yeah, it's quite problematic.

Yeah, I learned about that tradition—false tradition, I might add—of Mary being raised in the Holy of Holies from Jason Wallace's videos on Eastern Orthodoxy. Are you familiar with Jason?

Yes. Yeah, he has some great documentaries that he's released, and yes, his video is very.

Good.

Yeah, and the Eucharist, the Mass, do they believe in transubstantiation, like Rome? Do they have a unique, different view, and is it a perpetuatory sacrifice? Tell us about this.

Yeah, so if you look at what their actual beliefs—and they're not going to like me when I say this, but it is the same thing that they believe, but they do have different ways of slightly explaining the nuances of it.

But they ultimately believe in true presence, and they do believe in what they call a bloodless sacrifice that they're doing every time that they're having the Eucharist. And in the Coptic Church, for example, because the priest handles the communion elements, when we approach a priest as congregants, we're supposed to kiss the priest's hand.

And I recently spoke to somebody when they went and they visited. So in the Coptic Church, they have a pope, although he is not in any way like the Catholic pope. It's just the title in the Coptic Church.

He's basically the patriarch, which would be the head bishop. So they only look at bishops and the pope as the same position, but they give him the title pope just to say that he's the first among equals.

Anyways, this person was explaining to me a story that he was a Protestant himself, but he came from a Middle Eastern background, an Egyptian background. And he was going with this other group of Coptic people to visit Egypt, and they want to go visit the pope.

So he said, it's fine for him. He's just going to go visit him. He didn't realize that when people approached him, they were actually bowing down, crawling and kissing his hand. And when he saw that, he immediately got out of line.

But those are the types of practices. When a bishop comes, you're supposed to, what they call, make a matanya to them, bow down towards them. And you're supposed to kiss their hands because they're handling the elements, which they believe is true presence, which is truly Christ.

In fact, in a communion service, if bread or wine spills on something, you pick up the crumbs. But if it's wine, they'll actually put water to try to soak out the wine out of it and later on take that material and burn it.

That's the way that they view the Eucharist. They'll go to extreme lengths because they believe it's a true presence of Christ. And there's an actual blessing from consuming it and even touching it and everything.

Now, if you were still in the Coptic Church, that is, would you be welcome to the communion service of either Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic churches? And vice versa, would they be welcome in a Coptic Church for a communion service?

Typically, they wouldn't. But like I was talking about before, about the Greek and the Coptics have some agreements. I believe it's related to, like, if you're married to somebody, like sometimes they'll have a Greek and a Coptic person married.

They'll allow each other to take communion in the other person's church. And then they'll have just small different agreements. There's one area where there's the Orientals and the Easterns in the same area, and they'll allow them to take communion together.

So there's small different agreements. But if you look at the actual churches themselves, typically you don't take communion to any other church because, again, they're viewing themselves as the ark of salvation.

So the way both churches explain it, that there is salvation in them only. So it's like you're in the ark. And anyone else that would include not just a different Orthodox church, but Catholics, Protestants, and unbelievers, you're in the floodwaters.

Now, historically, that was very clear that anyone in the floodwaters was under God's wrath, and there is no way that they could be saved unless you were in the church. In the modern times, they've kind of changed the meaning.

And they'll say this phrase of, well, we know where the church is, but we don't know where the church isn't. That is not historically what the Orthodox churches have ever said. They were pretty firm and pretty clear with what they were stating.

You had to be in the Orthodox church if you were going to be saved.

Now, is a Coptic worship service typically conducted in an Arabic language, or would it be any part of it in English? How is that going?

Yeah, so in the Coptic church, usually you'll have portions in Arabic, portions in Coptic, and portions in English. And based on the population in a different area, they'll be heavy in certain areas. Or sometimes, especially if they have a lot of people who speak English there, they'll even have a certain service that will be all English or something.

So it's typically a mix, but based on the areas, they can change that. But they don't have any, for example, any formal rules about it.

Now, Coptic is an Egyptian dialect?

Yeah, it is Coptic. So you'll find Coptic in some of the early manuscripts that were found, and it's a ancient Egyptian. So it's considered a dead language. So when people understand Coptic, it is a dead language, so it's not used now, except for in services and stuff.

And the veneration of images, I know that in Eastern Orthodoxy, they forbid three-dimensional images, as Rome uses full-blown three-dimensional statues and so on, and only use icons, which are images that are somewhat raised from the surface, but not quite a three-dimensional.

Object.

Now, is Coptic worship the same as the Eastern Orthodox, or do they allow three-dimensional.

Objects?

No, they are the same, although, I mean, I have seen personal people sometimes have statues, but typically it's just an icon, or like you mentioned, where it's an image that is slightly 3D, but not fully 3D.

So that's typically how it is. Their beliefs on icons in general are very similar to the Eastern Orthodox. The difference is this, the Eastern Orthodox believes in the Seventh Ecumenical Council, so they have it officially laid out.

The Oriental Orthodox believes in the theology of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, but they can't accept the council, not because they disagree theologically, but because in order to accept it, you would then accept the Fourth Council that they have a problem with.

But theologically, they agree, and it's interesting because if you actually look at what they do for icons, it's really problematic. So there's a popular YouTube channel, a Coptic Orthodox channel called Coptic Orthodox Answers, and there, a priest named Anthony Mourad explains his justification on what the church believes about icons.

The title of the video is, What Does the Church Believe About Icons and Their Use? And he actually shares the prayer of consecration of icons. This is a Coptic Orthodox, right? So this is said every time that they're putting up an icon.

This is what it says. We ask and entreat you, O lover of mankind, to send your Holy Spirit on this icon, that it may become an anchored harbor of salvation and steadfastness for all who approach it faithfully, to receive through it grace and forgiveness of their sins from God.

So they're talking about the Holy Spirit coming on the icon. They're talking about people approaching the icon to receive salvation and forgiveness of sins. And this is an official Coptic prayer that is prayed when the icon is installed within the church.

And again, this is offered up as evidence that they are explaining what they believe that the Coptic Orthodox Church believes about icons. So it really gets into very similar beliefs of what pagans believed when they believed in idols.

And is there agreement with the East in opposition to Rome in regard to the filioque clause in the Apostles' Creed?

Yes, correct. They would share in that, too, where they would be against the filioque, yeah.

Which is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Correct, yeah.

And one of the major issues, obviously, that we want to discuss today that will come about in your testimony is the gospel itself, its salvation. I have friends and acquaintances who are convinced that the Coptic Orthodox Church is teaching a salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone.

I am assuming they must be deceived if there is so much similarity with the Eastern Orthodoxy. So tell us about that. What is their gospel? Is it just like Rome's, that in Rome you have not only the individual's works being necessary to merit grace, but you also have the treasury of merit, the works of Mary and the saints that are all added to your own works to, obviously, the benefits of Christ in order to receive salvation.

So what is the story with the Coptics?

So the Coptics, and I would say that it would be identical to what the Eastern Orthodox believe too, which is sola ecclesia, that one has to be in the Orthodox Church, that in the Orthodox Church one is saved by the Church alone, through the Church alone, in the Church alone, according to the Church alone, all for the glory of the Church alone.

Truly what they believe is that in order for you to receive salvation, you have to be a part of their Church. If you are baptized, it has to be by one of their priests or bishops. So everything is about being part of the Church.

And yeah, you're never just saved by faith alone. You have to do these works. It's described oftentimes like the Ladder of Defined Ascent, that as you do these works, you're climbing up that ladder, you're climbing up that ladder, and hopefully you've climbed up enough.

But if you go to any Coptic Orthodox person and say to them, are you saved? They would think that that's arrogant of us to assume that we could be saved, because for them it has to be about what they would call a cooperation with God, that God does His part and He makes it available, but you have to kind of work with Him and you have to continue working with Him.

And that is the reason why you have to keep going to the saints, because the saints have reached this higher level. Just like the Eastern Orthodox have the belief in theosis within the Oriental Orthodox Church, you could say it's a 50 -50.

Some people do believe in theosis, some people don't. Whereas in Eastern Orthodoxy, it's very clear that they do. It's a part of their bedrock. But they believe that the more you do these actions, you know, the type of prayers you make, being faithful by attending church, by taking the Eucharist every week, by going to the priest for confession, those things help your status so at the end that you'll be judged that you've done enough good things to get into heaven.

So it is very much merit-based.

By the way, I wanted to make it clear to our listeners that Reformed Christians, or at least most of us, believe that works are a necessary evidence for someone who is truly regenerate and justified, not that they in any way cooperate with the finished work of Christ on the cross.

They are just merely fruits, but they are necessary. We do not believe that people who live habitually unrepentant lives should have any hope of salvation.

Correct. And the Eastern Orthodox are good in the sense that they make it explicitly clear what they believe. One of the documents in the Eastern Orthodox Confessions to look at is the 1672 Confession of Diocese, and there they make it very clear that they don't believe in faith alone.

What it says there in that decree, Decree 13, we believe in man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love. That is to say, through faith and works. But the idea that faith can fulfill the function of a hand and lay hold on the righteousness which is in Christ and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all orthodoxy.

For faith so understood would be possible in all and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but that faith which is in us justifies through works with Christ.

But we regard works not as a witness certifying our calling. So that line right there is what we believe that Scripture shows, that good works shows that work as evidence, as a byproduct of saving faith.

Well, they don't believe that, but they say, but as being fruits in themselves through which faith becomes effectaceous and as in themselves meriting through the divine promises that each of the faithful may receive that is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad.

However, we know what Scripture says in Ephesians 2, 8 -9, for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing. It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But yes, good works are important as a byproduct. It shows evidence of our salvation, but it is not meriting our salvation.

Now, one more question before we go to our commercial break. What about the canon of Scripture? Do they agree with Rome's canon that includes the deuterocanonical books, which we call the Apocrypha, or does it exclude those books?

So they actually do have many books that the Catholic Church also believe in. But the interesting part—so in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they have a set amount of books. If you get—there's something called the Eastern Orthodox Study Bible that really lays out how many additional books that they believe in.

But in Eastern Orthodoxy—I'm sorry, in the Oriental Orthodox, the different churches within the Orthodox Church have a different canon. So, for example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Eritrean Orthodox Church, they have an 81-book canon for their Bible.

So they actually have it larger. So even within the Oriental Orthodox Church, the different churches have a different amount of books that they actually believe is canon.

Now, how seriously do they take those differences? Do they not have fellowship with each other over those issues or no?

No, in the Oriental Orthodox Church, it doesn't faze them at all. They still see that as within the church, even though they have a different amount of books as canon.

Well, we are going to our first commercial break. If you have a question on the Oriental Orthodox Church, specifically the Coptic Church or Eastern Orthodoxy in general, my email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And that would especially go to anybody who is perhaps still in the Coptic Church. You're having questions about it and you don't want to publicly identify yourself. We could totally understand why you would remain anonymous.

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