Does the Bible Teach Mutual Submission?

If you're trying to harmonize them all what you're going to have to do is you're going to have to either. Do one of two options. One is to say that the submitting to one another in the reverence of christ is talking about a very different kind of submission.

Than what's happening in the very next verse which seems unlikely, right? Or what you would say is like, oh the submitting to one another is just a heading that's now going to work itself out in examples.

Ephesians 5 and the Argument for Mutual Submission

Tim the question for today's episode is does the bible teach mutual submission?

That's one of those.

Very frustrating things that people say. When they're trying to basically get you know wives off the hook. For submission they'll basically ignore every single passage on in the bible on marriage. So, you know as you're reading through first peter.

You see that wives are told to be subject to their own husbands. You read through ephesians 5. You know wives are told to submit to their husbands. You know when you're reading through colossians, it's wives submit to your husbands.

And so universally when you get to these role passages wives are told to submit to their husband. But then some genius comes along. They read ephesians 5 21 essentially.

And.

That says, you know submitting to one another out of reverence for christ. And then they come to the conclusion that everyone's is supposed to submit in marriage. Well, obviously not only is.

I mean, I don't know. How can you not come to that conclusion tim? Are you ignoring that passage of the bible?

But the problem is the next verse right. So the next verse says wives, uh submit to your husbands. So the next verse is wives submit yourself therefore to your own husbands as to the lord. And so you have to have some sort of accounting for what's happening here.

And part of what's happening is the that the english translations are leading people astray uh when it comes to this and It's it's one of those things that's hard to explain to english speakers because they're just reading, you know, the bible in english.

But then when you're reading it in greek, it's just very clear what's happening and uh, it's just one of those like gaffes that people are making. That uh, you wish that you could spare them of but.

You know, unfortunately you can't at times.

So, you know what's actually happening here, you know as you're reading through this passage is that in ephesians 5 21 You basically have this word, you know, who. Potassium in a way that that's the word for submitting right.

So potassium in a way.

Who potassium in oh, oh potassium in a way who who? Okay, who potassium in all right. Yeah, who potassium greek vocabulary word for the week. That's right. That's right.

So what's happening is you have like who potassium in a way and then you know to one another in the fear of christ. And then when you're getting to you know, the verse 22 what you see is like high gunna case.

Which is basically the wives to their own husbands as to the lord. So you have one sentence in greek essentially so submitting to one another In the fear of christ and then it says the wives to their own husbands.

That's all one thought. Okay. And so what's happening is in english it divides it up into two Sentences so submitting to one another in the fear of christ and then you get wives submit. The verb submit is supplied there To your own husbands as to the lord.

But what's really happening is submitting to one another in the fear of christ the wives to their own husbands. That's that's the that's the flow of thought. And so when you think about it that way submitting to one another in the fear of christ the wives to their own husbands.

What you're not understanding is everyone submits to everyone.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

And then the wives are supposed to submit to their husbands just like everyone submits to everyone. What you're realizing is that you have like a subject heading like paul's just looking at a group. He's saying hey, you know, you guys need to be submitting to one another in the reverence of christ.

What does that look like. Wives submit to husbands slaves obey your masters children obey your parents? It's all the same. It's all the same thought so you have like Practice authority relationships when the church that's what it's saying practice authority relationship in the church.

Wives submit to your husbands. Slaves obey your master your earthly masters children obey your parents. That's the way it works. So that's what that's. What is meant there, right? And so. What is not meant there is that there's some sort of idea of mutual submission that doesn't even make any sense.

So so basically the argument stands because paul says um you know. Submit to one another in the fear of christ, right? And then he and then he gives he lists out the examples. Wives to their husbands slaves to their earthly masters.

Children to their parents. There is no example of like a husband's to your wives right.

It'd be part of it's that but part of it's just the grammar. Okay. Like so part of it is yes, so the husband isn't listed there as an example. But then part of the other part of it's just it's just simply the grammar.

So submitting to one another in the fear of christ the wives to the husbands.

Right.

That's one sentence. That's one thought like you haven't even moved on to a new thought. Yeah, so you need to be submitting, you know submitting to one another the wives to their own husbands. It could have said.

You know.

The wives and husbands to each other but what it says is submitting to one another meaning the wives to their husbands. So grammatically like it's talking about wife submitting to their husband is one thought.

It's not two thoughts, right? Right, so what's happening for the mutual submission position to work is you have two independent thoughts. Submitting to one another period and then wives you submit in a different way to your husband's.

But what's actually happening.

Is the same thought. So why do people gravitate to that? Interpretation. I know you I know you said like hey, it's it's a. It's basically like a um. A deficiency. I don't I don't know if you're like necessarily blaming the english language itself.

Or if you're just blaming the the specific translations into english.

Um, no.

I mean, it's a perfectly fine thing to translate. Okay, if but you have to make I mean english translations are translating it and they're not like um, there's a expression in you know translation translators or traders and so you have to.

Like you can't get everything that's in you know. The donor language into the receptor language and you have to make certain calculations. And if people knew how often verbs are supplied in english From greek like they would be confused if they don't understand what's actually going on.

So this is kind of a necessary dynamic of translation in certain ways but you know people should like what's happening is you have people with an agenda to overturn the obvious reality that wives are supposed to.

Submit to their husband because because of verses that are completely unrelated to this. One single passage, right?

Right. So I mean like it's just overwhelmingly taught, you know as. As you read through first peter, I mean, it's just like Wives be subject to your own husbands, right? Even if some do not obey the word even um,.

You know as they observe your chase and respectful conduct, even as you know Sarah obeyed abraham calling him lord. And you know you or her daughters if you do well and do not fear anything that's frightening.

So like the the issue though is that I think this is just taught everywhere wives are supposed to be subject. You're supposed to submit to their husbands. And then what you're having here is someone like making an argument that doesn't make logical sense.

Okay. Like if submission means anything if being subject to your husband means anything. Like what that means is like like for a wife to be subject to her husband to submit to her husband. She is like an inferior in rank.

To a superior in rank so she's placing herself under his authority because he is Spoken of as like the ruler of the home, okay. Yeah, so when you get all that then you're trying to argue for some sort of submitting to one another in the reverent in the in ephesians 5 21.

Like if you're trying to harmonize them all what you're going to have to do is you're going to have to either. Do one of two options. One is to say that the submitting to one another in the reverence of christ is talking about a very different kind of submission.

Than what's happening in the very next verse which seems unlikely, right? Or what you would say is like oh the submitting to one another is just a heading. That's now going to work itself out in examples.

Does that make sense? Yeah and so I Like you can read the english and get what i'm trying to say. It's not just like you have to know the greek to get it. If you have a brain you're trying to honor the bible.

You're going to look at submitting to one another reverence of christ wife submit to your husband's slaves. Obey masters children obey parents, huh? That must be what he means by submit to one another, right?

Follow authority relationships in the church, right? Like and that's not um, so it's not like you can't Get it apart from the greek greek. It's just when you read the greek the greek is much more explicit.

Explicitly shuts the door on that kind of argument than what people realize.

Why the Greek Grammar of Ephesians 5:21-22 Matters

So why not just translate it as one sentence? I mean it doesn't sound like it would be that difficult. Especially if the greek is treating it as one sentence.

Um.

It seems like you could accommodate that in english as well. Just breaks the rules of english. Oh, does it?

Yeah, so you need a verb.

Um.

So submitting to one another in you know, the fear of christ the wives to their own husbands. Right, so the wives to their own husbands as to the lord. Like that's not a complete thought. Does that make sense?

It's like a like it's missing something. It's missing something in english. And so what they're trying to do is supply what's missing there. Like so you're just. You have um, you have bad english at that point.

Yeah, but then if you say it if you say it like so like part of like translating it. Putting it into good english. Does that make sense? All right. So but if you say it like everyone knows what that meant though.

Even though it's awkward english, you get what i'm saying? Yeah. So like if I were to say submitting to one another in the reverence of christ the wives to their own husbands as to the lord. You know what?

I said You know what the implications of that are even though it's bad english. Do you get what I mean? Yeah. So then you're left saying do we do? Like do we do a poor translation here? Or do we do a Translation that could be a little bit confusing.

Okay, does that make sense? But then it's clear but it follows the rules of english, you know. And so part of what you're doing when you're translating is you're saying what are the rules of the donor language?

What are the rules of the receptor language and they don't always match, right? And so like and then you just you're trying to do the best you can that's why you have you know translators or traders.

Yeah, it's not like a math equation that all works out equal every single time. It doesn't yeah.

And anyone who knows two languages knows this and so basically it's just the um, You know, there's a certain type of person who's going to latch on to this quirk in the translation here.

And.

Do something strange with it but you should be able to know even without knowing what i'm talking about that that would be inappropriate because There is no place in anywhere in the bible where it says that husbands are supposed to submit to their wives.

First Peter, Headship, and the Limits of Mutual Submission

Okay, okay.

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